I have played 20mm ww2 for 30+ years... many systems tried. Battlegroup wins hands down for me... hits the spot between realism, great fun to play, and good historical-ness (not a word). Had many fun, close and dramatic games, and real world tactics work too... great community too on fb. RF is too simplistic, others like BA and CoC are more skirmish-level... BG is scalable, small to very large all work.
Not to be too harsh here but this video is useless as you haven't understood the rules of the games you're talking about. If you think you roll dice to get your available actions in Bolt action or that Chain of command is largely a static shootout then I can only believe this video was made on a whim one afternoon without actually reading the games properly.
The original book for Battlegroup was about Kursk and the massed tank battles at Prokhorovka. I think you got your scale estimate a bit wrong, it can handle a lot more than a platoon and a couple of vehicles.
Our group played a lot of CoC and found that most games boiled down to the side that got its leaders whacked first lost. As you indicated, there isn’t a lot of maneuver, and the artillery is way OP. It’s an OK game, but we really wanted more. I have to disagree that OG is a sister game to CoC - it’s more like a third cousin once removed. CoC focuses more on nut and bolts tactics, while OG abstracts a lot of that and goes more for planning, as well as command and control. Another unique item with OG is you have to come up with a complete battle plan before the game starts, with each company’s operational area, as well as phase line objectives. Mr. Brown’s games have so many nuances and layers to them, but they also are very intuitive. I sincerely hope you guys will give OG a serious try - it is a great game,
I have only played o group once. I definitely like the whole battle plan concept of which companies stay in which operational areas and I also like how the initiative shifts back and forth and the dice rolling at the beginning to set what's available. The only weird part about it is, having played lots of I ain't been shot mum, is that the combat and shooting mimic that for a skirmish game so that you had flank shots. That just seems sort of weird when each turn is supposed to represent 6 minutes
With CoC, I find you need quite a lot of terrain to prevent the game from degenerating into a long-range slugging match. Alternatively, you have to make the most of those often maligned multiple turns.
I would argue that Battlegroup is playable at company level. It certainly is possible to play a game with a platoon or two of infantry, one or two platoons of armoured vehicles and support troops. Also to me - though I have not tried them so may be wrong - it has the least 'gamey' mechanics. They may not be the quickest, but a lot of the rules here seem to have some clever mechanic that makes them different, but not necessarily more realistic. An example is if you know the enemy's morale level (Chain of Command), so know exactly what is needed to win.
All the WWII games I play are old, and probably not currently in publication. But they've all been available regularly in game stores and I think they're all pretty easy to pick up on the secondary market even now. Spearhead, Arty Conliffe: Solid battalion/regiment level game with fast play and good feel. Interesting command rules that work well for actual play. Quality and equipment variation is good. Generally designed for micro armor/6mm scale. Crossfire, Arty Conliffe: Platoon level, really innovative command and control based on momentum. Fast playing and tense. No ranges and no movement speeds. Works best with 15mm - 30mm figures, but could be used on a large enough table with any scale. Command Decision, Frank Chadwick: Battalion/regiment level game for micro armor scale. High complexity and lots of detail. Feels a bit dated now, but it has historically been a dominant WWII set.
Our Group Loves Command Decision III Test of Battle by Frank Chadwick. Lots of Infantry and Armor. Great system. Large scale but minis are Bathtubed. Armor 1 to 5 and Infantry 1 to 50.
A base in O group represents a section not a platoon, and a platoon is represented by 3 bases. You can build a battalion with a single box of Victrix 12mm figures which is around 90 figures @3 to a base. You certainly do not need "lots of armour", 4 tanks is plenty for a game.
Go see the Little Wars TV episode where the same scenario on the Battle of Foy (Band of Brothers Crossfire Wargame). They fight the scenario on the same terrain table using Crossfire and Fireball Forward Rules to compare how they work and feel in the same tactical problem. One of my favorite LWTV episodes.
@@Carl-MGR So, youre basicaly saying, you just decided to promote your "in house" ruleset, instead of the original rules, that they inspire it? Not really cool tbh.
Great overview, I’d love to see one for ACW and Napoleonics (you’ve reviewed some rules but I dont think you’ve done a big roundup for those topics like this or your ranking of ancients). Worth noting that Bolt Action probably is the most popular of these worldwide, maybe the most popular historical game worldwide across all periods now, raising the odds of finding a community of opponents. It also means other games that can use 28mm figures can be played with the same collections. I usually see O Group played with 15mm figures, making it ideal for anyone who already owns a Flames of War collection.
Totally wrong on the bolt action dice rules. You dont have to role the dice to find out what orders you can use, you just pick whatever order you want and place it face up next to the unit
Nuts! is a game in my top 3 favourite WW2 games. Designed for solo it is good for co-operative and player v player skirmishes up to platoon. It does take a bit of getting used to and is best learned by playing. The rules are learned stage by stage chapter by chapter. There are also simplified rules for quick solo games. I also like Blitzkrieg Commander, though it may be too abstract for many gamers. it is based on the Warmaster system. I have played all the games reviewed and find CoC is the game we play most. It is a game that you only get the best out of if you are playing it all the time as you need to really 'get' the command dice system. Looks like you have had experience of the online 'cult' fanatics! I would love to play more Fireball Forward. i have played it a few times at games shows, but not had a chance to unleash it on my regular opponent.
Chain of cammand isnt for people who must be able to make the unit do exactly what they want when they want. The word Command in the title is on purpose. Sometimes your units wont do what you want when you want and this game shows that. I am a manuevering nut when I play. Some folks are afraid to take hits so they hunker down and roll die for hours. I use overwatch and covering fire while moving the other units into positions. Its a fun game as long as you can have fun even when your units are ignoring your commands.
Okay, had to wait a few days to digest this video...whew! Well as an avid Chain of Command player (300+ games), I think you guys missed the boat on this one. Here's why, the Patrol Phase wasn't covered correctly in your comments, which leave the viewers wonders..."what"? I'm not sure if you guys really played CoC, but to sit there and shoot at each other and see who wins...NOT! That's the other game called Bolt Action...oh my here comes the negative comments. I've played BA several times and it just didn't work for me. It's too easy to criticize a game as not very good, if it hasn't been presented properly. In our group, BA was very popular initially...but it wasn't presented properly. The group had made so many house rules, which I didn't even know what was written or not...so it sanked with me. The CoC main rule book gives you generic scenarios, but it's the Pint Size Campaign where the system really shines. With many PSC to play through, you're forced into a excellent narrative in which your actions in game 1, will impact follow-on games. Recently, TFLs have release a second Handbook, which covered the Far East. The first one, for the 1940s campaign was a nice change of pace as well. I think you guys should have played each game at least 6+ times before proving comments. Hope you give CoC another go. Take care.
The right set of rules is like food what suits some doesnt suit others, I use Charles Grant Battle rules which I have expanded massively I am a solo gamer
If I was 12 again, I’d be looking at Rapid Fire or Bolt Action. But having played quite a few (ahem…) wargames and read quite a few books, I can’t see anything currently out there that approaches the sheer realism of O Group. Might give Fireball Forwards a go too, if I come across it. Does sound intriguing.
One thing in regards to Matt's views on Rapid Fire. Sometimes when trying to bring new people into WW2 games, I find that mo understanding of the war , it's weapons and tactics, hurts the new players. The rules reflect the war and if you don't know the war, you will struggle on how to use the rules. Rapid fire not being "realistic' may actually help with new players.
First review- Bolt Actio. Unless something has changed you don't roll those dice giving actions. You pull them from a bag to work out which player has a action... so wrong. Unless something has changed in the last 12 months
So I'm working on using the Star Wars Legion rules set to run with my Bolt Action minis. There are some great similarities between the two, and this way I can use my WWII minis with a rule set I know quite well.
Nice video, a few errors as noted by others (You don’t roll the action dice in BA, CoC the jump off points go behind the patrol markers and you really need to read some of the TFL after action reports to see how it’s played). So many rules out there, it’s hard to break the popularity floor without major marketing like Warlord. Other WWII rules could include Spearhead with heavy command and control emphasis, and Panzer Korps which is quirky, but has a lot of interesting mechanics for division or corps level gaming.
You should try Rapid Fire II rather than the fast play set. The original rules can go up to a division easy and handle up to 30 players. The original rules have a lot of army books and scenario books also.
Two indie rule sets from Nordic Weasel you might want to check out are Five Men in Normandy (squad level with a narrative campaign system baked in) and Hammer of Democracy (a simple company level game - not too much crunch but a surprising amount of tactical choices).
@@SpringfieldFatts Hey! I've done a read through of History Dads but haven't had the chance to try it out. But based on the read-through it's one of those "easy to learn but hard to master games" - You'll really need to use historical tactics to succeed.
I have to agree with your comment on CoC. Nearly all manoeuvre is conducted in the Patrol Phase, the rest of the game is a firefight. There’s some clever decision making to do around when you commit troops and where. It’s fine when you’re just using infantry but the AFV rules are a bit clunky, indirect fire can often break the game, and the abstraction of time can really screw the balance in scenarios.
@@cricketerfrench7501 yes, to a point. It’s still worth manoeuvring to capture jump off points, but in practice you almost always just shoot it out. It makes for a static game which comes down to who can concentrate the most dice on a single target to force morale checks. It means games get a bit ‘samey’ in my experience. I’ve tried Bolt Action 1st Ed, which I ditched for 10 years of CoC, then Victory Decision. I now use Bolt Action 2ed with TFL Pint Sized Campaigns. The combination works best for me.
CoC is best played (like Crossfire) with lots of terrain. If your troops need to run across open ground best to do it on multiple turns, when the enemy can’t fire back at them.
Our game club uses Bolt Action 1st Edition with 15mm figures. Recently, we went wild with a 4 weekend D-Day/Normandy campaign, focused primarily on the battles between the 101st Airborne Div. and the 6th Fallschirmjager Regt. around Carentan. Multi-colored dice were used to denote commands. By the time we finished out the campaign with the counterattack of the 17th SS Panzer Grenadier Div. and 6th FJR against the 101st ABD. reinforced by the 2nd AD., our dice bag contained 25 or so dice, and over a dozen vehicles on the table. The game played out very well, with 8 turns completed in about 6 hours!
Command Decision, A Fistful of TOWs and Blitzkrieg Commander are my preferred rulesets for playing WWII, but I’m into Battalion to Brigade or Division level actions and 6mm minis
At the squad to platoon level there is also NUTS by Two Hour Wargames, which can also be played as an RPG-lite type game. I think I saw that Disposable Heroes 2 and Blitzkrieg Commander have already been mentions in the comments as has Nordic Weasel games. I think Rapid Fire is more of an abstract company to battalion level game to allow for large tabletop battles. I may have missed it, but I felt that was overlooked in the video. Also, I disagree about the level of detail in Battlegroup. While, no, it’s not as crunchy as some rules, I think it’s pretty comprehensive overall in its attention to details while also allowing for abstraction. I do agree that the game can drag with the saving throws! Good video, I enjoy the channel and the fact that I can watch it while my kids are in the room…lol!
I think it would be interesting to have this split into two for differing play scales, so individual based like Battlegroup, Bolt Action etc v Company and bigger multi based unit games like Fireball, FoW, 'O' Group. As there going to give very different games betwen squad/platoon engagement and Company+ battle.
Outstanding video, Mark, and a great topic deserving of coverage. I own and have played 5 of the 6 games (except the "Ben Gazzara" game, sorry) and think you have been quite fair to each of them. I found another compelling aspect of O Group was its scouting units/markers (similar to CoC, as you mentioned) which can serve as "bluffs", scouts or deployment points. A strength of Rapid Fire is the ease it lets you integrate diverse weapon systems such as off-field artillery, tanks and small arms. (our clubs around Vancouver did a 45-foot D-Day game (Juno, Gold and Omaha) with 25 players using RF and it worked very well.
Cheers guys and thanks for the review I agree you need an experience player to help you learn O group, I also enjoy playing Chain of Command as you mentioned the patrol phase is great, eliminating time that is spent moving your troops to get into action as is other game rules and its very strategic part of the game. The other things I like about CoC is its randomness and how Leaders are important to your troops. Yes sometimes inexperience players can just get blogged down in fire fights but as you play the game more you do see that movement after the patrol phases is important factor and with the latest updates with the Far East book it does add more dimension to the game while keeping it Historical.
Rapid Fire is first and foremost a battalion set of rules. The scale CAN be rejigged up or down in order to accommodate a scenario but the actual organizations don't change. The building block is the battalion.
Not surprising that Bolt Action has a bit of a 40K feel as John Stallard, Paul Sawyer (John and Paul started Warlord Games), Alessio Cavatore and Rick Priestley (Alessio and Rick created Bolt Action) are all ex Games Workshop.
I enjoyed your video! I think this is very helpful for those entering ww2 table top gaming. I agree with your assessment of CofC. Scenario design is really important. I have found this in all Lardy games (and others). To keep from players hunkering down and just throwing buckets of dice, there must be an incentive to move. Provide objectives that force the players to think about how objectives can be achieved and use the tactics to achieve those objectives. Battles were rarely about lining up and shooting to the last man/model.
I didn’t realize that you roll bolt action dice Tod determine orders. I thought that was pulling from a bag and then to allow activation, and then you pick the unit and the order you want to give.
Hey guys, I’ve been playing WWII Minature games forever!!! At least back to the early Eighties pushing Rico Minitanks around supported by Airfix troops and using Angriff! Rules! Switched to Leopard Tracks and Tractics and Micro Armor . What would appeal to us gronards?
I Ain't Been Shot Mum! (by TFL), Fireball Forward and BattleGroup are really brilliant sets of rules. Chain of Command and Crossfire are great as well. BA and FoW shouldn't even be considered in comparison
Bolt action is dice driven Picked at randomly out of a bag! Not rolled for initiative. I've got all the sets and I like fireball forward, close to rapid fire. But no qrf sheet so just falls short. If you get one I think it's an improvement. But good discussion and vid 👍
Thanks for the recap. I might give Fireball forward a try. It has some similarities with I ain't been shot mom plus I'm always on the lookout for True historical scenarios. Rather than points-based playing
Highly enjoyable presentation! For those willing to use larger figures, Fireball Forward does work with 28mm. It is also a great set of rules for the Interwar period - Chinese Warlords, USMC and USN "Sand Pebbles" scenarios, Sandinistas, the Spanish Civil War and The Chaco War are all well supported by Fireball Forward.
We can seldom get together anymore so "1 Hour Skirmish" allows us to play while catching up and blabbing and not having to play around with tables and charts and stuff. It serves a purpose.
Chain of Command is really designed for two or four players, Big Chain of Command supports more players. I agree though it can devolve into place and shoot. For battalion scale games Command Decision is a good choice.
You don't roll those dice giving actions. You pull them from and the player decides on the action on the dice! and it's more of a 1 to 1 game, and used in competitions on a 4 x 4 table!
I enjoyed watching this for the discussion, there are some very good points made throughout the video with a few small mistakes and a interesting selection of games, I hope we see some follow up videos to this as there are soooo soooo many rulesets to choose from. I agree with some of what was said and disagree with other bits, thankyou for making the effort to produce this video, its not a easy topic and as shown in the comments very opinionated as everyone is after something different. Theres a lot of talk of chain of command here in the comments, having played a reasonable number of games i think its a good game, but it can easily be a coin toss as to whether its enjoyable for both players, i think the comment of it turning into line up and shoot is valid, especially to new fresh players, as is the counter argument of those 300 games in, when it will undoubtedly play differently, as such i think its a game that needs that experience to make it great. I would also echo the experience of "feedback" from the community, which on the whole is great but small elelments of which can be overly zealous at times, especially in defending the rules, perhaps as seen in some comments here.
Try, Action all Fronts. Action All Fronts are written to enable gamers to play recreations of historical battles, and to play their own scenarios, or even ambitious WW2 campaigns for control of Europe, etc. As such, the armies are all intended to be balanced enough for any army to play any other army, even if the two were not historically pair-matched e.g., Britain vs. Soviet Union. This leaves any debates about historical accuracy where they should be - between the players. The rules feature: * Limited visibility, which limits the enemy player to shoot only at what has been spotted rather than being able to target anything on the table. * Alternate unit activation instead of one army then the other army. Overwatch fire is included. * Heroes to allow for those soldiers whose actions go beyond those expected from the majority. Including some details of those real-life soldiers whose exploits won them their country's highest military awards.
Great review, I have played Bolt Action, FOW, Chain of Command, and O Group. I prefer O Group, but would love it if you went up even further and went Division / Corps level. Sounds like another video opportunity?
Shame not to mention Crossfire. All Hell Let Loose is another great game, definitely worth a look. However, you’ve reminded me to get Fireball on the table again.
I was going to watch the whole video. When you start off with Bolt Action and don't know how the orders dice work, I have to assume you are going to not actually know anything about the rest of the rules sets either.
I enjoy TFL tremendously. I have Fireball and want to try it. Suggestions on how to scale it down? I have 15mm but enjoy 28mm more and I think to branch out and get the more numerous WHFB players to “come out of the cave” (at least around me) that’s the scale to use.
Is FOW a gorilla or a monkey? I think it’s the wall-to-wall traffic jams of Tiger II’s that put a lot of people off. Looks more like a Napoleonic battlefield than the “empty” battlefield of WW2.
I sense your knowledge, understanding and in particular the application of some of these rule sets you describe, is sadly lacking. Except of course, your own at the end.
Thanks for your feedback! I’ll note that we aren’t recommending FBF over the others, but instead trying to say which rules might be best for your group!
@@Carl-MGR Reviewers should have much more experience then shown in this video in the games reviewed. I have had quite a bit of experience with some of the rules discussed and if the errors in description of the rules I know is any indication this video is a complete wast of time. Except, perhaps as a plug for Fireball Forward! Really it takes a club of "real Gamers"to appreciate! Really!
Is there any current pre-painted miniatures of historical WW2 land-based games out there? I play WIngs of Glory and the Dead game format War at Sea but its no longer in stores for naval games. But Land-based would be cool.I can't paint due to hand nerve damage. So pre-painted miniatures would be great.
That really surprised me also. The #1 Bolt Action Facebook group has just under 26K members. The #1 Flames of War Facebook group has over 15K members. So, while not as many, that's still a pretty good total, and probably shows that it still has a significant following, and it should have been included.
Great and useful overview, especially for those of us who don't get a lot of time at conventions and may not know the "trends". All too familiar with Too Fat Lardies and their "hate answers", so have systematically eliminated all TFL games from my inventory and refuse to play them, either. Nearly all have proven to be overly engineered and poorly developed, anyway.
We play historical scenarios with Rapid Fire Reloaded and they work really well, whilst the patrol phase of CoC or O group dont for this type of game. Is Matt even a historic wargamer ? Seemed like someone who has little wargaming experience so maybe not the best person to review rule sets. Sorry!
Rapid fire reloaded is a great set of Rules ! Does Your guy even know what he is talking about ? Watching some of Your videos he seems to be the worst tactical and historical player I have ever seen ! No offense ment 😊
I have played 20mm ww2 for 30+ years... many systems tried. Battlegroup wins hands down for me... hits the spot between realism, great fun to play, and good historical-ness (not a word). Had many fun, close and dramatic games, and real world tactics work too... great community too on fb. RF is too simplistic, others like BA and CoC are more skirmish-level... BG is scalable, small to very large all work.
Not to be too harsh here but this video is useless as you haven't understood the rules of the games you're talking about.
If you think you roll dice to get your available actions in Bolt action or that Chain of command is largely a static shootout then I can only believe this video was made on a whim one afternoon without actually reading the games properly.
The original book for Battlegroup was about Kursk and the massed tank battles at Prokhorovka. I think you got your scale estimate a bit wrong, it can handle a lot more than a platoon and a couple of vehicles.
Tbh, never heard of anybody using Battlegroup rules as "just platoon game"
Our group played a lot of CoC and found that most games boiled down to the side that got its leaders whacked first lost. As you indicated, there isn’t a lot of maneuver, and the artillery is way OP. It’s an OK game, but we really wanted more. I have to disagree that OG is a sister game to CoC - it’s more like a third cousin once removed. CoC focuses more on nut and bolts tactics, while OG abstracts a lot of that and goes more for planning, as well as command and control. Another unique item with OG is you have to come up with a complete battle plan before the game starts, with each company’s operational area, as well as phase line objectives. Mr. Brown’s games have so many nuances and layers to them, but they also are very intuitive. I sincerely hope you guys will give OG a serious try - it is a great game,
I have only played o group once. I definitely like the whole battle plan concept of which companies stay in which operational areas and I also like how the initiative shifts back and forth and the dice rolling at the beginning to set what's available. The only weird part about it is, having played lots of I ain't been shot mum, is that the combat and shooting mimic that for a skirmish game so that you had flank shots. That just seems sort of weird when each turn is supposed to represent 6 minutes
I agree with your comments re: O Group .
I could wax lyrical all day about these excellent rules
With CoC, I find you need quite a lot of terrain to prevent the game from degenerating into a long-range slugging match. Alternatively, you have to make the most of those often maligned multiple turns.
I would argue that Battlegroup is playable at company level. It certainly is possible to play a game with a platoon or two of infantry, one or two platoons of armoured vehicles and support troops. Also to me - though I have not tried them so may be wrong - it has the least 'gamey' mechanics. They may not be the quickest, but a lot of the rules here seem to have some clever mechanic that makes them different, but not necessarily more realistic. An example is if you know the enemy's morale level (Chain of Command), so know exactly what is needed to win.
that is a great point, a lot of these cames though not intended to can become "gamey", not very easy to do that in Battlegroup!
All the WWII games I play are old, and probably not currently in publication. But they've all been available regularly in game stores and I think they're all pretty easy to pick up on the secondary market even now.
Spearhead, Arty Conliffe: Solid battalion/regiment level game with fast play and good feel. Interesting command rules that work well for actual play. Quality and equipment variation is good. Generally designed for micro armor/6mm scale.
Crossfire, Arty Conliffe: Platoon level, really innovative command and control based on momentum. Fast playing and tense. No ranges and no movement speeds. Works best with 15mm - 30mm figures, but could be used on a large enough table with any scale.
Command Decision, Frank Chadwick: Battalion/regiment level game for micro armor scale. High complexity and lots of detail. Feels a bit dated now, but it has historically been a dominant WWII set.
Our Group Loves Command Decision III Test of Battle by Frank Chadwick. Lots of Infantry and Armor. Great system. Large scale but minis are Bathtubed. Armor 1 to 5 and Infantry 1 to 50.
Have to check that one out, sounds like a great size for 15mm, how is the basing?
I agree with some of what you say, I disagree with some of what you say. But that's wargaming for you.
A base in O group represents a section not a platoon, and a platoon is represented by 3 bases. You can build a battalion with a single box of Victrix 12mm figures which is around 90 figures @3 to a base. You certainly do not need "lots of armour", 4 tanks is plenty for a game.
Ive tried most of these but always find myself going back to Fireball and CoC. Fantastic games.
Nicely balanced overview ... but no "Crossfire"?
Our reasoning is that in many ways Fireball is inspired by crossfire, so you’d hear a lot of the same things
Go see the Little Wars TV episode where the same scenario on the Battle of Foy (Band of Brothers Crossfire Wargame). They fight the scenario on the same terrain table using Crossfire and Fireball Forward Rules to compare how they work and feel in the same tactical problem. One of my favorite LWTV episodes.
@@Carl-MGR So, youre basicaly saying, you just decided to promote your "in house" ruleset, instead of the original rules, that they inspire it? Not really cool tbh.
Great overview, I’d love to see one for ACW and Napoleonics (you’ve reviewed some rules but I dont think you’ve done a big roundup for those topics like this or your ranking of ancients).
Worth noting that Bolt Action probably is the most popular of these worldwide, maybe the most popular historical game worldwide across all periods now, raising the odds of finding a community of opponents. It also means other games that can use 28mm figures can be played with the same collections.
I usually see O Group played with 15mm figures, making it ideal for anyone who already owns a Flames of War collection.
Agree, would love to see one on different historical periods.
Another great video guys! My favorite WW2 rules are Blitzkrieg Commander 4 now owned by Pendraken. Also it has terrific support from Leon and company.
Totally wrong on the bolt action dice rules. You dont have to role the dice to find out what orders you can use, you just pick whatever order you want and place it face up next to the unit
Yeah that was our mistake! Mark was misremembering
@@Carl-MGR - No worrys, we all make mistakes
Nuts! is a game in my top 3 favourite WW2 games. Designed for solo it is good for co-operative and player v player skirmishes up to platoon. It does take a bit of getting used to and is best learned by playing. The rules are learned stage by stage chapter by chapter. There are also simplified rules for quick solo games. I also like Blitzkrieg Commander, though it may be too abstract for many gamers. it is based on the Warmaster system. I have played all the games reviewed and find CoC is the game we play most. It is a game that you only get the best out of if you are playing it all the time as you need to really 'get' the command dice system. Looks like you have had experience of the online 'cult' fanatics! I would love to play more Fireball Forward. i have played it a few times at games shows, but not had a chance to unleash it on my regular opponent.
Chain of cammand isnt for people who must be able to make the unit do exactly what they want when they want. The word Command in the title is on purpose. Sometimes your units wont do what you want when you want and this game shows that.
I am a manuevering nut when I play. Some folks are afraid to take hits so they hunker down and roll die for hours. I use overwatch and covering fire while moving the other units into positions. Its a fun game as long as you can have fun even when your units are ignoring your commands.
Okay, had to wait a few days to digest this video...whew! Well as an avid Chain of Command player (300+ games), I think you guys missed the boat on this one. Here's why, the Patrol Phase wasn't covered correctly in your comments, which leave the viewers wonders..."what"? I'm not sure if you guys really played CoC, but to sit there and shoot at each other and see who wins...NOT! That's the other game called Bolt Action...oh my here comes the negative comments. I've played BA several times and it just didn't work for me. It's too easy to criticize a game as not very good, if it hasn't been presented properly. In our group, BA was very popular initially...but it wasn't presented properly. The group had made so many house rules, which I didn't even know what was written or not...so it sanked with me. The CoC main rule book gives you generic scenarios, but it's the Pint Size Campaign where the system really shines. With many PSC to play through, you're forced into a excellent narrative in which your actions in game 1, will impact follow-on games. Recently, TFLs have release a second Handbook, which covered the Far East. The first one, for the 1940s campaign was a nice change of pace as well. I think you guys should have played each game at least 6+ times before proving comments. Hope you give CoC another go. Take care.
Rommel from Sam Mustafa is really worth a look
I have looked for this set and, con not find it.
We actually discussed doing a roundup of JUST Sam Mustafa games. So definitely something we may discuss eventually
The right set of rules is like food what suits some doesnt suit others, I use Charles Grant Battle rules which I have expanded massively I am a solo gamer
If I was 12 again, I’d be looking at Rapid Fire or Bolt Action.
But having played quite a few (ahem…) wargames and read quite a few books, I can’t see anything currently out there that approaches the sheer realism of O Group. Might give Fireball Forwards a go too, if I come across it. Does sound intriguing.
Bolt action is great, but it's not WW2, would be happy to use it for a generic Sci-fi or WW1 or colonial
@@olympiangamers7007 - Bolt Action is a game rather than a wargame.
My go to WWII ruleset is Command Decision Test of Battle
Is there a pdf version of those rules?
@@Kallistospromsadly they don’t produce and sell pdfs
One thing in regards to Matt's views on Rapid Fire. Sometimes when trying to bring new people into WW2 games, I find that mo understanding of the war , it's weapons and tactics, hurts the new players. The rules reflect the war and if you don't know the war, you will struggle on how to use the rules.
Rapid fire not being "realistic' may actually help with new players.
29:49 great scenario support and I really like the Squad Leader like programmed instruction.
Great Video. I own and, have played most of the rule sets. I play Chain of Command quite often. Battle Group is a lot of fun as well.
First review- Bolt Actio. Unless something has changed you don't roll those dice giving actions. You pull them from a bag to work out which player has a action... so wrong.
Unless something has changed in the last 12 months
As someone who's looking to branch out into historical Wargaming this was extremely useful. Id love to see this done for more periods
You should do this for Napoleonic rules. Of course the video will last six hours!
We’ve thought about it!
@@Carl-MGR I'd listen to all six hours, but not in one sitting.
So I'm working on using the Star Wars Legion rules set to run with my Bolt Action minis. There are some great similarities between the two, and this way I can use my WWII minis with a rule set I know quite well.
Nice video, a few errors as noted by others (You don’t roll the action dice in BA, CoC the jump off points go behind the patrol markers and you really need to read some of the TFL after action reports to see how it’s played). So many rules out there, it’s hard to break the popularity floor without major marketing like Warlord. Other WWII rules could include Spearhead with heavy command and control emphasis, and Panzer Korps which is quirky, but has a lot of interesting mechanics for division or corps level gaming.
You should try Rapid Fire II rather than the fast play set. The original rules can go up to a division easy and handle up to 30 players. The original rules have a lot of army books and scenario books also.
We played a lot of Disposable Heroes rules set before getting into Bolt Action, which is a more "fun rules set".
Mark, I am running a One-Hour skirmish game at Historicon on Friday for six people. It is scalable with some tweaking and still works well.
Two indie rule sets from Nordic Weasel you might want to check out are Five Men in Normandy (squad level with a narrative campaign system baked in) and Hammer of Democracy (a simple company level game - not too much crunch but a surprising amount of tactical choices).
Yooo I thought I was the only guy who played Hammer of Democracy. Cool game. Have you tried his new one History Dads? I guess his take on Bolt Action.
@@SpringfieldFatts Hey! I've done a read through of History Dads but haven't had the chance to try it out. But based on the read-through it's one of those "easy to learn but hard to master games" - You'll really need to use historical tactics to succeed.
I have to agree with your comment on CoC. Nearly all manoeuvre is conducted in the Patrol Phase, the rest of the game is a firefight. There’s some clever decision making to do around when you commit troops and where. It’s fine when you’re just using infantry but the AFV rules are a bit clunky, indirect fire can often break the game, and the abstraction of time can really screw the balance in scenarios.
I think that is the idea. The weapon ranges of just about everything is across the table so the manoeuvre is done by the time the game starts.
@@cricketerfrench7501 yes, to a point. It’s still worth manoeuvring to capture jump off points, but in practice you almost always just shoot it out. It makes for a static game which comes down to who can concentrate the most dice on a single target to force morale checks. It means games get a bit ‘samey’ in my experience. I’ve tried Bolt Action 1st Ed, which I ditched for 10 years of CoC, then Victory Decision. I now use Bolt Action 2ed with TFL Pint Sized Campaigns. The combination works best for me.
CoC is best played (like Crossfire) with lots of terrain. If your troops need to run across open ground best to do it on multiple turns, when the enemy can’t fire back at them.
30:45 blitzkrieg commander is a great system, pretty easy and can be scaled a bit.
What do you guys think of a new V for Victory game? Any plans to review it?
Our game club uses Bolt Action 1st Edition with 15mm figures. Recently, we went wild with a 4 weekend D-Day/Normandy campaign, focused primarily on the battles between the 101st Airborne Div. and the 6th Fallschirmjager Regt. around Carentan. Multi-colored dice were used to denote commands. By the time we finished out the campaign with the counterattack of the 17th SS Panzer Grenadier Div. and 6th FJR against the 101st ABD. reinforced by the 2nd AD., our dice bag contained 25 or so dice, and over a dozen vehicles on the table. The game played out very well, with 8 turns completed in about 6 hours!
Command Decision, A Fistful of TOWs and Blitzkrieg Commander are my preferred rulesets for playing WWII, but I’m into Battalion to Brigade or Division level actions and 6mm minis
Great video, have showed it to a couple of friends i am trying to recruit to historicals.
A bit more talk about scale would have been nice.
At the squad to platoon level there is also NUTS by Two Hour Wargames, which can also be played as an RPG-lite type game. I think I saw that Disposable Heroes 2 and Blitzkrieg Commander have already been mentions in the comments as has Nordic Weasel games.
I think Rapid Fire is more of an abstract company to battalion level game to allow for large tabletop battles. I may have missed it, but I felt that was overlooked in the video.
Also, I disagree about the level of detail in Battlegroup. While, no, it’s not as crunchy as some rules, I think it’s pretty comprehensive overall in its attention to details while also allowing for abstraction. I do agree that the game can drag with the saving throws!
Good video, I enjoy the channel and the fact that I can watch it while my kids are in the room…lol!
Perfect timing for this video!
I think it would be interesting to have this split into two for differing play scales, so individual based like Battlegroup, Bolt Action etc v Company and bigger multi based unit games like Fireball, FoW, 'O' Group. As there going to give very different games betwen squad/platoon engagement and Company+ battle.
Outstanding video, Mark, and a great topic deserving of coverage. I own and have played 5 of the 6 games (except the "Ben Gazzara" game, sorry) and think you have been quite fair to each of them. I found another compelling aspect of O Group was its scouting units/markers (similar to CoC, as you mentioned) which can serve as "bluffs", scouts or deployment points. A strength of Rapid Fire is the ease it lets you integrate diverse weapon systems such as off-field artillery, tanks and small arms. (our clubs around Vancouver did a 45-foot D-Day game (Juno, Gold and Omaha) with 25 players using RF and it worked very well.
Love the Flying Tigers 🐅 shirt !! … and the Thurston Howel III cameo !
Cheers guys and thanks for the review I agree you need an experience player to help you learn O group, I also enjoy playing Chain of Command as you mentioned the patrol phase is great, eliminating time that is spent moving your troops to get into action as is other game rules and its very strategic part of the game. The other things I like about CoC is its randomness and how Leaders are important to your troops. Yes sometimes inexperience players can just get blogged down in fire fights but as you play the game more you do see that movement after the patrol phases is important factor and with the latest updates with the Far East book it does add more dimension to the game while keeping it Historical.
Great video and overview. Thanks for sharing. Love your content! Keep up the great work.
Rapid Fire is first and foremost a battalion set of rules. The scale CAN be rejigged up or down in order to accommodate a scenario but the actual organizations don't change. The building block is the battalion.
Interesting video. I've just ordered Rapid Fire Reloaded as I like lots of tanks and I've heard a lot of good things about it...
Not surprising that Bolt Action has a bit of a 40K feel as John Stallard, Paul Sawyer (John and Paul started Warlord Games), Alessio Cavatore and Rick Priestley (Alessio and Rick created Bolt Action) are all ex Games Workshop.
I enjoyed your video! I think this is very helpful for those entering ww2 table top gaming. I agree with your assessment of CofC. Scenario design is really important. I have found this in all Lardy games (and others). To keep from players hunkering down and just throwing buckets of dice, there must be an incentive to move. Provide objectives that force the players to think about how objectives can be achieved and use the tactics to achieve those objectives. Battles were rarely about lining up and shooting to the last man/model.
For a Squad level game, Operation Squad Evolution (OSE) is interesting.
Why no FOW?
It’s not very realistic. I think most FoW players have moved on to more fun or challenging rule sets.
Thanks guys. Any chance of a part 2 covering WW2 at a larger scale ie Division
Bolt Action is 28mm scale not 20mm
I’m currently reading up on a Fist Full of Tows 3. D-Day to Berlin is a fun con game.
The old Gettysburg are gamers used rapid fire for over a decade. Currently the bolt action conversions for 54mm by Ron P.
I didn’t realize that you roll bolt action dice Tod determine orders. I thought that was pulling from a bag and then to allow activation, and then you pick the unit and the order you want to give.
You are correct, they aren't 😂
Hey guys, I’ve been playing WWII Minature games forever!!! At least back to the early Eighties pushing Rico Minitanks around supported by Airfix troops and using Angriff! Rules! Switched to Leopard Tracks and Tractics and Micro Armor . What would appeal to us gronards?
I Ain't Been Shot Mum! (by TFL), Fireball Forward and BattleGroup are really brilliant sets of rules. Chain of Command and Crossfire are great as well. BA and FoW shouldn't even be considered in comparison
What about Battlefront WW2 from the Fire and Fury guys. Great support and a wealth of scenarios. Battalion scale and an investment of time
I’d like to try that one!
Bolt action is dice driven Picked at randomly out of a bag! Not rolled for initiative. I've got all the sets and I like fireball forward, close to rapid fire. But no qrf sheet so just falls short. If you get one I think it's an improvement. But good discussion and vid 👍
Thanks for the recap. I might give Fireball forward a try. It has some similarities with I ain't been shot mom plus I'm always on the lookout for True historical scenarios. Rather than points-based playing
Highly enjoyable presentation! For those willing to use larger figures, Fireball Forward does work with 28mm. It is also a great set of rules for the Interwar period - Chinese Warlords, USMC and USN "Sand Pebbles" scenarios, Sandinistas, the Spanish Civil War and The Chaco War are all well supported by Fireball Forward.
Thanks for this!
We can seldom get together anymore so "1 Hour Skirmish" allows us to play while catching up and blabbing and not having to play around with tables and charts and stuff. It serves a purpose.
Mark, how about a video on the original war game rules starting with Wells, Featherstone , Young etc and how about scales of figures like 54mm
Chain of Command is really designed for two or four players, Big Chain of Command supports more players. I agree though it can devolve into place and shoot.
For battalion scale games Command Decision is a good choice.
Mark you produced another great video
You don't roll those dice giving actions. You pull them from and the player decides on the action on the dice! and it's more of a 1 to 1 game, and used in competitions on a 4 x 4 table!
I enjoyed watching this for the discussion, there are some very good points made throughout the video with a few small mistakes and a interesting selection of games, I hope we see some follow up videos to this as there are soooo soooo many rulesets to choose from. I agree with some of what was said and disagree with other bits, thankyou for making the effort to produce this video, its not a easy topic and as shown in the comments very opinionated as everyone is after something different.
Theres a lot of talk of chain of command here in the comments, having played a reasonable number of games i think its a good game, but it can easily be a coin toss as to whether its enjoyable for both players, i think the comment of it turning into line up and shoot is valid, especially to new fresh players, as is the counter argument of those 300 games in, when it will undoubtedly play differently, as such i think its a game that needs that experience to make it great. I would also echo the experience of "feedback" from the community, which on the whole is great but small elelments of which can be overly zealous at times, especially in defending the rules, perhaps as seen in some comments here.
So excited to watch thank you for posting!
Try, Action all Fronts.
Action All Fronts are written to enable gamers to play recreations of historical battles, and to play their own scenarios, or even ambitious WW2 campaigns for control of Europe, etc. As such, the armies are all intended to be balanced enough for any army to play any other army, even if the two were not historically pair-matched e.g., Britain vs. Soviet Union. This leaves any debates about historical accuracy where they should be - between the players.
The rules feature:
* Limited visibility, which limits the enemy player to shoot only at what has been spotted rather than being able to target anything on the table.
* Alternate unit activation instead of one army then the other army. Overwatch fire is included.
* Heroes to allow for those soldiers whose actions go beyond those expected from the majority. Including some details of those real-life soldiers whose exploits won them their country's highest military awards.
Great Video. Really like Rapid Fire and chain of command. Not a fan of Bolt Action. Fireball sounds interesting. Rommel not mentioned is good as well.
Great review, I have played Bolt Action, FOW, Chain of Command, and O Group. I prefer O Group, but would love it if you went up even further and went Division / Corps level. Sounds like another video opportunity?
Shame not to mention Crossfire. All Hell Let Loose is another great game, definitely worth a look. However, you’ve reminded me to get Fireball on the table again.
I was going to watch the whole video. When you start off with Bolt Action and don't know how the orders dice work, I have to assume you are going to not actually know anything about the rest of the rules sets either.
I enjoy TFL tremendously. I have Fireball and want to try it. Suggestions on how to scale it down? I have 15mm but enjoy 28mm more and I think to branch out and get the more numerous WHFB players to “come out of the cave” (at least around me) that’s the scale to use.
I think it works fine as written, ranges and all, with 28mm
@@Carl-MGR thanks Carl!
Any suggestions for a WWII game for beginners that has each side with a battalion plus?
Crossfire.
Surely the impartiality of this video must be called into question?
Are any of you members in a HMGS chapter just curious?
No mention of FUBAR?
Nice review. What do you guys think of 02 Hundred Hours, Five Men at Kursk, Ultracombat Normandy, or the gorilla in the room Flames of War?
We are definitely looking at 02 hundred hours
Is FOW a gorilla or a monkey?
I think it’s the wall-to-wall traffic jams of Tiger II’s that put a lot of people off. Looks more like a Napoleonic battlefield than the “empty” battlefield of WW2.
Great video, more channels should make measured assessment reviews like this👍👍
I sense your knowledge, understanding and in particular the application of some of these rule sets you describe, is sadly lacking. Except of course, your own at the end.
Thanks for your feedback! I’ll note that we aren’t recommending FBF over the others, but instead trying to say which rules might be best for your group!
@@Carl-MGR Reviewers should have much more experience then shown in this video in the games reviewed. I have had quite a bit of experience with some of the rules discussed and if the errors in description of the rules I know is any indication this video is a complete wast of time. Except, perhaps as a plug for Fireball Forward! Really it takes a club of "real Gamers"to appreciate! Really!
@@richardbryant2380 please link me your review when it comes out
Is there any current pre-painted miniatures of historical WW2 land-based games out there? I play WIngs of Glory and the Dead game format War at Sea but its no longer in stores for naval games. But Land-based would be cool.I can't paint due to hand nerve damage. So pre-painted miniatures would be great.
Yes, it called playing using someone else's armies. My friends do that a lot.
No “Nuts!” ?
Interesting no Flames of War?
Ah finished the vid, guess you didn’t like the new edition.
We felt it wasn’t worth mention as it seems to be really falling out of favor recently
That really surprised me also. The #1 Bolt Action Facebook group has just under 26K members. The #1 Flames of War Facebook group has over 15K members. So, while not as many, that's still a pretty good total, and probably shows that it still has a significant following, and it should have been included.
Try Rommel in 6mm. My favorite game at division/corps level.
I picked them up but haven't used them yet. I don't see much on you tube about them
@@robertdelaney4332 See LittleWars TV D-Day episodes
You guys don't mention Flames of War, which shows how far the popularity has fallen in past years
That was our thought process.
What do You think about flames of war?
What about Flames of War?
Without a Crossfire? Cmon...
What version of Siekrig do you like?
I think a couple people in our club have played Seakrieg, but for me even GQ3 is pushing it for complexity of naval rules.
Great and useful overview, especially for those of us who don't get a lot of time at conventions and may not know the "trends". All too familiar with Too Fat Lardies and their "hate answers", so have systematically eliminated all TFL games from my inventory and refuse to play them, either. Nearly all have proven to be overly engineered and poorly developed, anyway.
One word; CROSSFIRE
Let's all play crossfire
CoC needs a second edition. The errata and faq is like 40 pages long. O Group was so dry and boring, wasn't a fan.
And Iron Cross?
We play historical scenarios with Rapid Fire Reloaded and they work really well, whilst the patrol phase of CoC or O group dont for this type of game.
Is Matt even a historic wargamer ? Seemed like someone who has little wargaming experience so maybe not the best person to review rule sets. Sorry!
Rapid fire reloaded is a great set of Rules !
Does Your guy even know what he is talking about ?
Watching some of Your videos he seems to be the worst tactical and historical player I have ever seen !
No offense ment 😊