The lack of a rulebook is actually thematic with the game's premise. We all have to dig through ancient egyptian rulings like archeologists to discover the truth/lore behind a modern card game interaction. Just like the anime!!
@@mrbubbles6468 There were no rules in the anime. Kaiba pretty much made the first rule book in Battle City. Before that you could literally just do whatever. Like attack the moon or break flotation rings.
@@orga7777 Pegasus's rules may have been more liberal as far as battle is concerned but they did exist. Players didn't just pull the stat effects of the environment (and how different environments interacted) out of their asses.
@@bl00by_ At first it was the person who summoned it but I think they updated it so the person who takes it can now. That still won't work for any effects that apply immediately like kali yuga though, only effects that'd trigger the next chain
"Making a rulebook is too hard." "But Magic has one." "But YGO is so big and complex." "Magic has it beat on both fronts, here's an example of a complex problem solved via the rulebook." "That's too complex for my taste." Doesn't that.... doesn't that prove the exact point though? If the game you find too complex is capable of having a rulebook, then surely the one you like can have one. *I don't get what their point is.*
I think it’s more likely they mean they don’t understand the words on the cards in relation to the game Like if you don’t play the card game how are you supposed to know the key words or effects Even if you have a history of knowing card games sone games just trip you up (for example there’s a card game I can’t name where burn means banished and how would you as an outsider work that out)
half the people in the original twitter thread don't understand the difference between a rulebook and a list of rulings. "so you want a list of every single possible interaction between any cards??" no you bozo, I want a list of rules that card interactions fit into. in MBT's example, the comprehensive MTG rulebook doesn't just say "this is how opalescence works with humility", it has an actual in-depth explanation of how timing works, and you can figure out how the interaction works from there. it doesn't help that mtg ALSO has a massive list of rulings/explanations for individual cards on gatherer, which the yugioh tcg totally lacks
This exactly! We don't need a list of every card and how it interacts with every other card, we need a list of all the different kinds of effects and how they interact with each of the other different kinds of effects.
Well, the point is you should be able to understand and play by reading and most issues come up when people just simply don’t read or know how cards are meant to work. They don’t know PSCT. I almost respect the judges for telling their players to learn the basic game they are playing if not for the fact it is only the TCG that has this issue.
except that yugioh doesn't have a twine and tape ruleset. there are clearly defined rules for how literally everything in the game works. it's just a matter of the people playing the game actually bothering to learn those rules. there are flow charts you can look at that tell you how the resolution of a single effect works. sub-step by sub-step. from open game state, to activation, to resolution, and back to open game state, and every possible scenario in between. and on top of that, every other niche interaction has an underlying ruleset that causes it to resolve the way it does. these things are clearly defined, but access to said information isn't great, so even most judges don't understand a lot of it as well as they should. do 99% of players know anything about this? no. they don't. hell, I didn't know a lot of it myself until DistantCoder went a whole big rant about it a couple months back. yugioh also has a "layer" system, much like magic does, but not nearly as complex, or perhaps just not clearly defined. and even this is something most players don't really know about. most players don't know that monster effects take precedence over spells and traps, and spells take precedence over traps. why do most players not know this? because the need for such knowledge almost never comes up. like the jinzo VS skill drain ruling he mentioned, technically jinzo should always take precedence over skill drain, but another rule is more important than that rule, making card type precedence kind of pointless in this instance. the rule of "which one was activated first?" because the last one gets negated. the precedence rules don't matter like 95% of the time, because other rules explain the interaction better and simpler. even the opalescence/humility interaction he brought up isn't that complicated. it's literally just "which one hit the field first?". if it was opalescence, then everything is 4/4 (or whatever it's respective stats happen to be), and if it was humility first, then everything is 1/1. (assuming I'm reading the cards right. I don't know magic PSCT very well. I don't know if humility would reapply it's effect continuously or it's just applied at the time of activation and never again.)
They should do it for every possible interaction that can, but they should also standardize the wording. If this means going back and rewording older cards to fit the new templating then do it! They've change the wording of older cards (waboku, necovalley). When everything is standardized then the 10,000 interactions will shrink since you only need to deal with the case and not the individual. Magic for example has rules for what happens if an instant or sorcery some how get onto the battlefield (they don't even talk about HOW it got there, just what to do IF it gets there). So that's a single case that might happen one day and might happen in different ways, but the case is the same: What do I do if an instant or sorcery is put onto the battlefield?
Ok, this is more than enough to convince me ygo needs a much more detailed rulebook. I found that magic interaction to be pretty easy to understand, even though it was a pretty long explanation, but I wouldn't be able to understand a single word of what the hell he was talking about if that stuff wasn't in the rulebook. A rulebook like that in ygo would make life just soooo much more easier.
I mean, they have explained how such layering works in YGO with Jinzo and Skill Drain. The only reason MTG needs the rulebook is it was designed with for more complexity. The problem is the TCG rules different to OCG. And that has always been the issue.
@@mrbubbles6468 There's a second, I would argue more important, problem with Yugioh's rules: They've never been collected in one place. In one place, you can find Jinzo vs. Skill Drain and learn how it works and why. In another place, you can learn when you can activate effects and what the "proper/formal" way of playing a game is. In another place, you can learn the differences between "also/also, after that,/and if you do/then/and." In another place, you can learn how the damage step works etc. In no place, you can learn or reference the rules of the game in full. This, by far, is the biggest problem with Yugioh's rules imo.
@@mrbubbles6468 there's no way for a Yu-Gi-Oh player to find the official rules of the game. That's a problem, regardless of how many rulesets there are. There's not a single one that has them documented properly. (Yes the OCG has a rulings database, No I don't find that to be adequate because of the way they grouped and separated rulings in a way that allows for cherry picking which has resulted in conflicting rulings that should be agreeing.)
A rule book would help sooo much. The best example I can think of to why we need one is when the Paleozoics came out, the judges were determining how they work in real time and often in contradictory ways. What chains to what? Are they monsters or traps or both? What does flipping them into face down defense do? It was chaos and a rule book that says how trap monsters work would preemptively fix a lot of these problems, and relying on precedent for these types of rulings is probably more labor intensive than just writing some comprehensive rules beforehand.
@@halodragonmaster actualy old trap monsters state that they count as both traps and monsters which is why metal reflect slime can be destroyed with mst. compared to newer trap monsters like paleos that only count as traps while in the s/t zone and only as monsters while in the monster zone.
They shouldve started a rulebook with things like last turn way back in the day. But instead konami decided to sweep their mistake under the banlist rug and pretend it never happened in the first place. Banning problematic cards doesnt fix them, its just konami's way of saying "we made a mistake that we dont wanna deal with" now we have dozens of cards with ruling issues and no official refernce point to resolve those issues.
Mtg is so nice for this. For each card released, there are several additional rulings that are added on a database to help explain some of the nuances of the card. If you ever have an issue with some card interaction, legit just lookup x card rulings and you will find it and its great. I’ve had many times when i have used the card “song of the dryads” and people looked at me confused on what it does, and i just pull up the page to back up my explanation of it. Its not about making every single interaction written, its just explaining the card in a coherent way such that whenever an issue arrises, it can help to clarify the solution/ where in the rulebook to find the solution
This literally happens for Yu-gi-oh in Japan, Konami just malds if you ever try to reference it since they clearly don't want to pay someone to translate it, nor have the balls to approve the fan translation. Among other things, these release rulings are also the only way to identify what classification certain effects are (especially when it comes to things like non-classified effects).
@@Skasaha_ a concept like a non-classified effect can't exist in magic, because any effect that would exist has to either fall into an existing rule or have a new rule classifying it.
@@vxicepickxv yeah, pretty much, it's completely different. Unclassified effects are the epitome of the Yugioh rule "card effects trump game rules". They can be pretty much anything, for example substitution effects (e.g. Balelynx) and summoning effects that don't activate (but aren't a summoning condition). They also are not activated effects, except for Kuribabylon's last effect because ignition effects can't be used in the battle phase but they wanted this one to do that. Because Konami Says So.
@@Skasaha_Magic also has a rule of “card effects trump game rules.” It’s actually written in the rulebook: > 101. The Magic Golden Rules >> 101.1. Whenever a card’s text directly contradicts these rules, the card takes precedence. The card overrides only the rule that applies to that specific situation. The only exception is that a player can concede the game at any time (see rule 104.3a). Rarely will this happen, since Magic’s rules are very well thought through, but this rule acts as a failsafe for when nothing else helps. There is absolutely no reason Yugioh can’t also have this same rule in a hypothetical comprehensive rulebook. It’s just that Konami doesn’t give a fuck and would rather things go on as they are because players are still gobbling up the game despite its lack of rules.
I love how people talk about how not doable this is, but literally every other game does this. MTG has Gatherer and they make posts all the time. Pokemon has comprehensive rules posted whenever they introduce new mechanics. even the Digimon TCG just says fuck it and releases a PDF of every relevant ruling they thing players will ask whenever ANY new set comes out. Literally card by card explaining every effect and saying in plain text "Yes you can in fact do this and this, but not this because that's just how it works bucko"
I feel like one of the big issues with this is that rulings surrounding a particular card don't link to the same rulings on other cards when you're looking online. If they were to do this, it would be a lot easier to find the answers, rulebook or no rulebook I don't want to have to think "what's the oldest card that has this kind of effect?" while looking for a card rulings. I was talking with the EDOPro devs once about how Stardust Dragon would interact with Limiter Removal, and even they didn't have the answer. I don't even remember what ruling we looked at for the answer, but it sure as hell wasn't a card I'd heard of before
I had a rule mcguffin in Master Duel yesterday where I was playing an entirely new engine/archetype that I hadn’t seen before, lost, saved the replay, and had to comb through like 9 turns worth of cards to figure out where the hell the ‘your opponent cannot activate Spell/Trap cards during the battle phase’ card was because the game didn’t acknowledge it as an effect activating.
@@dabbingtoast7743 it is still the same. Think of the classic makyura the destroyer, it says when it goes to the gy you can use traps from your hand that turn. You would think that this means it triggers when it hits the gy but nope, you cannot negate it as it doesn't "activate", it's just a continous effect with a condition. Jinzo is an easier example, but further removed from this case. He has one condition (being face up on the field) and one continous effect, so cards that "negate an effect" do stop him like an effect veiler, but cards that "negate the activation of an effect" would do nothing to it so a solemn strike would be DOA if you normal summon the jinzo like it is against makyura and your case
This is something Digimon Card Game did very well imo Besides the Manual and Glossary it has both a Detailed Rules and a Q&A/General Rules document which go into rules for a variety of interactions between effects and they keep updating them as they add more effect types and mechanics
Master duel exists. They had to figure out the rules so that they could program the interactions in. The knowledge exists out there, but konami isn't sharing.
I'm shocked by how many people would rather just leave rulings to a judge's interpretation of the rules rather then a rulings book that says this is what happens and why. As it stands, rulings can vary from judge to judge and that creates even more confusion for not only the players but other judges down the line who may be looking back on past rulings only to see conflicting answers. They don't need ever interaction documented, but documenting tricky and problematic card interactions would make things better for everyone and give clear guidelines for how the game is played.
They must have some sense of groundrules for interactions. After all master duel exits and every interaction can happen on it. Therefore if it can be written in code it can be written in a rulebook.
And, in that game where the starting life total is 20, people have found a way to do 2 ↑408 20 damage in a single turn without any infinite combo (for people unfamiliar with ↑ notation, know that it's used to write numbers so large they can't reasonably be represented as 10^(some large number), or 10^10^bignum, or 10^10^10^bignum, or... you get the point). But that's not all! 2 ↑408 20 damage in a turn without infinites is old news. Nowadays, they have to use a completely different notation which expresses numbers so large, ↑ notation is impractical for them. Beyond that, because of the way restrictions on blocking work in MtG, it is posssible for a gamestate to be reached where one player must solve a CoNP-hard problem for the game to continue following the rules. MtG's rules engine is _fun._
I realize that it's not the main part of this video but I died at the "Longer than the constitution.' because Jesus Christ the constitution isn't fucking long
As a D/D/D enjoyer, I still don't know why you can steal your opponent's pendulum cards with Machinex despite Machinex's effect only working on Monsters (Master Duel). Pendulum monsters placed in the pendulum zone are treated as spells. I don't know if this happens in other simulators or real life game.
@@bl00by_ if i remember correctly, machinex can steal pendulums from the pendulum zone because he can steal "monster cards". If he only were able to steal monsters ("once per chain, when a monster your opponent controls....."), he would only be able to steal them from the monster zone. (to verify, i checked machinex' ocg ruling entry on yugipedia, which confirmed, that machinex can steal monster cards from the pendulum zone, vision hero's from the s/t zone etc.)
@@genisis6418 Unfortunately this conflicts with basically every other interaction where pendulum monsters in scale are never treated as monsters. But BKSS, and the only way to ever know if it is ruled this way in the TCG is to ask the head judge at every single event.
This doesn’t even go into Gatherer. They have a database of every single card, with errata, updated templating (PSCT), and - most importantly - *a list of potentially relevant rulings*. The comment and rating sections on the site have been broken for the better part of a decade now and it’s *still* lightyears better than anything any other TCG has.
You're expecting more player based involvent from a company who released Master Duel 10 months ago and the only events they've held are "What If you couldn't use URs?" "What if it was only Synchros?" And a new mates, fields and sleeves every few months. 🤣
MD is handled mostly by the OCG and works on those rulings. The OCG has a ruling database. So yws, I would expect one from the people that made MD as there is one. I wouldn’t expect it for the TCG which neither the TCG or OCG cares about
@@PAPP0NE no, the TL is the same (most of the time, sometimes they goof). Just some rules make cards interact differently, and for no discernable reason. For example, in the OCG hand triggers act like quick effects, but in the TCG you just use them at actual trigger effect timing.
reminds me of a tournament the other day where i had a question about if Dragoon can be targeted in the grave because he says “this card cannot be targeted” which yeah would probably just be a face up continuous effect, as it turned out, but in order to verify it, THEY HAD TO LOOK IT UP FROM THE OCG
A way to help simply Yu-Gi-Oh rulings is to take the lead from MTG again, and to change how our key words work. Our keywords of Destroy, Discard, Send and so on, don't hold a candle to how much effort key words in MTG do. Our key words are used as part of effects. Their key words are whole effects themselves! Doing so would make a rulebook easier to create, and would somewhat lower the barrier of entry
I want them to make a yugioh rulebook exclusivley because i want them to have to write down the one line of text that just says "Warrior of Atlantis works"
"precedent is less hard? practice law!" OMG as an civil law student this speaks to me on so mamy levels: I studied the precedent-based system that people in America use and holy shit is that incomprehensible. Why do I have to refer to many similar cases in the past to know how I should judge one case, when I can have a book with EVERYTHING written on it? America's (and UK too) stubborness in keeping their common law precedent-oriented judicial system is fascinating to me, it sounds so clunky and unnecessarily hard
Even the "Here's the basic's of the game" 'rulebook' you get is something that needs considerable improvement just to properly teach players how it works in common scenarios in a very clear manner, like they ain't helping with the players can't read meme. A centralised true rulebook being needed is honestly such an old issue with Yugioh, see constant complaints about Judges making rulings that contradict core mechanics when cards involved don't have something that allows that kind of flexibility (counter trap not being able to respond to technically slower card if it says it can't be reacted to) that ruin experiences, that it has no excuse to not exist. Should have made one when Fusion Deck became Extra deck and nows its just sad there is no TCG one.
Master Duel despite some programming errors actually unifying the rulings for a game which you will end up playing against international opponents is a massive improvement. Separate rules between regions should only exist while cards are unique to said region, when they become worlds legal it must be unified.
Digimon, while being only a few years old, has an online database where you can look up each set and see an faq for rulings on each card. if someone sends in a new question and its relevant, they update the faq with the answers. super helpful and easy to look up while youre playing a tournament.
as also a magic player this is so funny to me as magic proves that it is irrelevant how gamebreaking a card text is. "Henzie "Toolbox" Torre" is a card that might as well be a vanilla as the text on it literally does not work within the rules of magic the gathering, well at least it doesn't do what you think it would, and the problem is if you change the rules to make that card work you break an entire mechanic but you know what wotc just said screw it this card work like you think it should the rules mean nothing to us. and this isn't even speaking about stuff like how wotc saw that a non deterministic infinite loop was popping up so they responded with answering the question how to rule it with screw you if you do a non deterministic loop thats staling for time even if after infinite amounts of repeats it will 100% win the game. and the just to top it of there are joke sets in magic where you do stuff like throw a card from 2 meters away from the table and no player is allowed to move card while the spell is on the stack and all f that madness still works with the rules of the game so you don't even need to talk about everything possible and if something arrises just change the rules to make it work and if that doesn't work make exception hat are officially stated ps.: amarikans really do measure in anything but the metric system. yea this book is about 19 constitutions high and has a surface are of 1 halve constitution
at least there's still a full rulebook for 'how to play' the wixoss tcg has been out for 8 years and there isn't even a single comprehensive rulebook on 'how to play' to be found even on their official site
Based on one of my favorite commander game videos two people had a monster that made it so no one could lose but the owner couldn’t win. Meaning the 4 people were all trapped in fucking permanent limbo if no one had removal. In the end they all lost.
So I came back to this video and something I just realized is that with Master Duel out and functional, that means Konami 100% has a rule book like Magic The Gathering’s because THEY CODED IT INTO THEIR AUTOSIM!!! Just fucking print it Konami!
i love mtg rulings i can search for a card on their website and underneath the card text and what packs have it in what rarity it has a log of every single ruling for that card a tcg that has 22000 unique cards (based on a quick google search) compared to yugiohs 12000 (same sorta google search)
If anyone ever tells me MTG is more complex than YGO I just laugh and think about the Yajiro Invader guy that Coder set to perm beginner on DB. That is the difference between MTG and YGO. YGO players get so pissy if someone is doing something creative. MTG players just go "wow man that's crazy I'm impressed"
I mean, in MTG you'll probably get a little pissy mid combo but at some point you'll go straight to being impressed again. Mostly because who the fuck actually decides to run the Turing Complete deck against someone that isn't their friend?
I think the wildest parts are when Konami just goes "this is how the interaction works" and by virtue of being the game creators and authority their rule is law on the subject and that's how the interaction works, but also *if you read the cards the ruling on the interaction is clearly wrong.* Also, the vast majority of a typical yugioh card's text at this point is restrictions dictating when and how it can be used, and only a small portion of it indicates what the card actually does. And most of those conditions are recurring and exact from card to card yet still arbitrarily written out long form in full sentences. How does the game not have "Hard OPT" as shorthand text for instance
How DARE you say that Yu-Gi-Oh should be easier to understand?! Obviously we shouldn't know what Last Turn and Pole Position do and apply, what a foolish suggestion! Anyways, normal Aleister, response?
I'm a MTG judge who plays YGO occasionally and this is one of my main gripes with the game. It's completely impossible to figure some things out on your own. Mind you, YGO is not the only CCG with this issue, Hearthstone has this exact issue as well.
Other TCGs have Comprehensive Rules, but Yu-Gi-Oh! It is the one that doesn't. Weird. Edit: I feel like if it had a comprehensive rule book, it would be so much easier to understand instead of digging through the lost archives of the OCG Rulings. Since one thing TCG judges say is something along the lines they cannot look up the OCG Rulings, I think?
MTG was originally designed mostly by phd mathematicians and computer scientists (not a joke, the creator had a phd in Combinatorial Mathematics and hired his friends from the program to be some of the first designers). I think that framework led magic to have a more robust rules engine that allows for some of the most ridiculously complex scenarios, but in a programmatic and predictable way that lends itself to having a rule book. The issue with yugioh is they have too many conflicting rulings that they would have to change the way a lot of cards work for a scenario in a rulebook to be consistent across the board. I think a yugioh rulebook is absolutely possible, but it would take a lot of work, and frankly may take some more talented staff than konami has on hand to do it.
The fact that Yugioh has an official rules engine in Master Duel suggests that Konami understands the rules of its game - or at least its programmers do. Given that, it _should_ be possible for them to write a proper rulebook, though as you say, it might take a lot of skill to do so well.
@@delta3244 not having someone to do it well might be honestly what is stopping them. That and the fact the playets don’t even understand or tead their cards so what’s the point in giving them a rulebook they’ll never read. It’s probably easier just to come up with stuff on the fly at tournaments because most games don’t involve judge calls,
"It's called precedent and it's actually easier than writing an entire handbook of every possible situation." As someone who works at a legal publisher...PRECEDENT IS WRITTEN DOWN AND THERE IS A (COMMERCIALLY) SEARCHABLE DATABASE!!
Yu-Gi-Oh players will accept stagnate neglect when not only is a document possible it wouldn't be hard. A project like this is not an every shifting surface, every time you pin down an interaction you'd be closer to the goal and by the time you'd be done there will only be a single digit number of cards that came out in the mean time that also need this treatment. Then the upkeep could be done annually at low cost. There isn't a TCG that exists that would cost as much to do this as Yu-Gi-Oh players think it would.
The size comment is such a brain rot take. Like i hope it wont be a literal book people have to pull out. Itll be a database/pdf you can search for the specific cards youre looking for. Its also not like they dont have the rulings already. They just need to take time to make it. And the best part is if its a database and they accidentally make a card that makes an old ruling broken so they change it, you can just edit the page and add a footnote like "if you are playing in formats before x master rule this ruling applies" Also as someone who likes yugiog but only plays link evolution, this is one of the things preventing new players from joining locals/competitive. Like i know how to play yugioh but i dont understand it. You just have to know all the rulings or just hope your opponent isnt gonna shark a game against a noob and actually teach you how to play. At least with sims they prevent weird rulings getting sharked but they also dont explain why so you dont learn anything. Then add in learning how the multiple decks work and to counter them basically involves playing them which means spending money on archetypes you might not enjoy.... hell just watch many of the sealed series yugitubers have. Many competent players lose matches because they forget how cards interact.
Someone literally made a Turing machine using a deck of 60 MTG cards. If MTG can have a DAMN COMPUTER FOR A DECK and still have a comprehensible rulebook then why can't YuGiOh?
every time some glue eater striker player or eldlich player who snorts floodgates cut with xanax tries to talk about how ygo is so much more complex than mtg, I what to hand them something like modern amulet titan, old flash hulk cedh decks, legacy lands, doomsday. Decks with either play patterns more difficult to solve than anything konami could try to make or are dependant on edgecase interactions that, if they did not exist (ie, activating mana abilities happens faster than instant speed so you can float mana from karoolands while the trigger that bounces them is still on the stack) would cause the deck not to exist. and all of these aren’t niche decks that only exist on magical Christmas land, these have all been the best deck in their format at some time, and are all tiered to this day
I don't understand. As a Magic player, I genuinely don't get it. Wouldn't it be nice to look up a card, and it says "if an effect would change control of this monster while its effect is in a chain, *this happens*"? And wouldn't it be nice to have rulings be CONSISTENT! I watched a Coder video awhile ago, and he was advocating that players using a certain card go up to the head judge to see how they would be ruling an interaction, because there was a tournament that used a different ruling?! Wtf is that shit?!
there will never be anything in yugioh as comprehensive as the big book of mtg rulings but there really needs to be something like the ocg database for tcg
YGO players "our game is very complex" Any MTG player that has talked to another player that has happened to take the judge exam to even become a judge "Nice YGO rules you got there, here's how layers work and that you have to understand them to even pass the judge exam" Me " yeah f that judging stuff it's too big for my brain". As a former MTG player I've literally used their data base to look up cards i had questions about and literally found answers to interactions that i was looking for. The fact that YGO doesnt have one is wild. I also think the MTG card that has the most amount of possible ruling in that data base is Karn Liberated. Because the ruling even have ruling about multiplayer games since Karn can reset the game and the rulings literally explain how to restart the game properly in all circumstances.
ppl unironically saying "yugioh's rules are too complicated for a rulebook" are fucking unbelievable. like if the rules are that complicated, that's EXACTLY WHY YOU *NEED* A RULEBOOK
It seems like people understood "every interaction with every card" no, in the case of Satellarknight Skybridge it's just it's interaction with a Spell Speed 1 effect of stealing a monster, any card that does that applies, simple.
@Shia Lebeouf: Life Coach Heck, the Japanese team working with the American team to get the cards release at the same time would be great. No more cramming the text box with kanji, then ignoring the consequences.
It's not just that it's complex though, it's also that card rulings have exceptions. For example, you can activate interupted kaiju slumber when your opponent controls a kaiju even though players can only control one kaiju. In every other similar instance you can't activate the card. Including instances invovling Slumber. e.g. you can't activate Slumber under Vanity's Ruler. Does Magic have these? (Although actually, yeah they should assemble the OCG rulings database into some sort of super-rulebook. I doubt people would read it though, they don't even read the regular rulebook: many of the commonly disputed interactions are literally in there already.)
Let's just be honest, whoever handles the TCG rulings was procrastinating at first, and now they've realized just how much work they have to do and refuse to do it. As an MtG player who transitioned to Yugioh, I can say without a doubt that I can only play Yugioh on Master Duel because otherwise I can't realistically trust a judge call that could change on a whim because it's up to how the judge is feeling that day
I would say that probably is the worst thing about competitive yugioh in general. You really need to understand your rulings because there's no official oracle with rulings that is consistent across regions and then you're also depending on the judges who dole out rulings to also know what they're talking about.
Adding onto what both of you said, Distant Coder's all-too-common line "X should probably be ruled this way, but make sure you ask your head judge how it will be ruled in advance if your strategy relies on X" (quoted from memory) is such a perfect representation of this problem.
If you go to Ygorg and search for rulings, you'll see that not only the OCG regularly releases rulings updates, they spent the past few months doing a bunch of ruling consolidations and listing every card where that same situation applies. Meanwhile the TCG simply doesn't give a fuck about us.
@@f1fanatic241 We technically do have a rulebook but it's so basic and lack a TON of critical information. It's as bare bones as it gets and will absolutely wreck a new player when they try to go to locals knowing only what's in that book.
I once had a *head judge* at a regional rule on the following chain: 1. I activated System Down 2. My opponent chained ABC-Dragon Buster effect to tribute itself to special summon A-Assault Core, B-Buster Drake, and C-Crush Wyvern that my opponent could then ACTIVATE UNION HANGAR'S EFFECT TO EQUIP A BUSTER DRAKE TO ASSAULT CORE TO KEEP IT FROM GETTING BANISHED. A head judge ruled that you could activate a spell speed 1 trigger effect during the resolution of a chain...I scooped and left the tournament. So yeah, Yu-Gi-Oh! desperately needs a comprehensive rulebook, not a basic rulesheet.
"multiple constitutions long" might actually be the single funniest sentence ever written The US Constitution is less than 5k words, 8k if you count all the amendments. Just for comparison, the first Harry Potter book is a bit under 80k words, and that wasn't exactly a heavy read lol
My favorite part of the rule book is the part where it says that XYZ summons can be done with monsters of the same level, but conveniently forgets to mention "except tokens, lol" unless you go to the ass end of the book in "other rules", where it is a single sentence. Literally treated exactly like any other monster, except in one situation, because they didn't want to handle using a token as a material for XYZ summons. I spent hours trying to find where in the world it explains that, turns out it was the small font on the bottom of the damn chicken nuggets box rather than the large font on the receipt.
So what your telling me is the rulebook worked exactly like people are wishing the rulebook worked and yet that still wasn’t good enough? No wonder they stopped printing rulebooks.
@@mrbubbles6468 no people would wish for it to be well structured. No reason to not say except tokens in the xyz summon requirements. Redundancys also not a problem put it into other rules as well.
@@mrbubbles6468 No, because they have an entire section dedicated to XYZs with dead space. This isn't, "muh, the rulebook works, but its not good enough", this is "even the basic bitch shit they got is bad." This is like putting all the mathematical formulas in a physics book in the fucking glossary.
@@freaki0734 I mean, basic rule at the front and specific rule regarding something that you’d only end up needing to know if you added to your SD with outside cards at the back seems like a well structured and simple way of doing things if you ask me. Problem is they are never consistent with stuff like that.
And what’s funnier is that most players won’t even have to read said rulebook. Comprehensive rules are mainly for judges to reference when disputes come up.
"The official rulebook has a list of every type of effect and the order in which they apply if they happen at the same time so if you have effects A, B and C happening you can simply look at the rulebook, see that A is this type, B is that type, and C is this other type, so the order they apply in is C, A, B" just makes infinitely more sense to me as a system of rules for a game than "well there's this precedent in the OCG database for something kinda like this but the judges aren't supposed to use that so they just wing it"
I really don't understand why judges wouldn't want a book like that, if only because it would make it a lot easier to deal with players who insist "But at the store I usually play at, we do it *this* way!"
But then the head judge couldn't pull the "because I say so" card anymore. XD Remember when the head judge of a remote duel YCS said before the tournament that you can use Raye's eff to summon Zeke?
Because an issue that actually requires a judge comes up so infrequently in the grand scheme of things that writing a rule book is not worth the effort when coming up with rules on the spot will work and the can immediately be changed.
@@mrbubbles6468 You sir, have obviously never judged competitve yugioh. Back in the pre-XYZ days I would judge my locals that never went above 30 players, and the ammount of rulings disputes I had to adjucate in a given week was fairly substantial. Considering how many layers of complexity have been added to the game SINCE then exponentially increasing required rules knowledge - saying disputes come up too infrequently is disingenuous at best.
MBT has the same energy as Sajam talking about rollback netcode people are treating real basic stuff as luxury simply cause the creators never put in the effort
Someone mentioned it in that twitter thread, but yes the way that Bushiroad handles their card rulings (or at least Japanese bushiroad cause the English sites haven't updated in years) is that they have a QnA section on their website where you can look up individual cards, keywords, or general game mechanic rulings and get rulings on those interactions. In cases where a previous ruling on an old card interaction would essentially provide the same answer, the newer cards would be tagged onto that old ruling, thus implying that the old ruling applies just as much with the new cards. All we need is just a easily accessible and updated database where important rulings can just be looked up and presented as undisputed fact by konami. But no that would take actual effort. this is konami we're talking about.
"presented as undisputed fact by konami" exactly How can they not realize how important that is. I don't not play with the ban list when it comes out, even tho I could, because i respect it's authority; the rulings should have that same level of weight
@@winnkey Wow, way to completely miss the point of the comment. Was he comparing complexity? No. He was saying that Bushiroad has a *Q&A SITE* dedicated to *CARD RULINGS AND HOW THEY INTERACT WITH OTHER CARDS* and was saying that Konami just needs to do the same thing for Yugioh. He was not saying "Vanguard is just as complex as Yugioh". He was saying "Yugioh needs to do something similar to what Vanguard does in terms of card rulings and interactions", which is to have a dedicated site that you can pull up whenever and look at certain interactions. Which yes, Yugioh does need that, because 90% of the rulings in this game sound like pure bullshit a judge just pulled out of his ass if you hear it the first time without any knowledge that that is indeed how said cards function together. There's a reason this game is considered the hardest one to get into for new players, and the bullshit card rulings is one of the many reasons why.
how dare people want Yu-Gi-Oh to be less of an uncomprehensible mess than it currently is! how am I supposed to shark people at locals if they gain a better understanding of the game?
I generally like the YGO Community, but the group of people that play only YGO and clearly have never touched another card game are consistently the ones with the most insufferable takes
God actually so true "Here's how you make vanguard/digimon/whatever better" [proceeds to propose the most dogshit unbalanced changes and "fixes" that just makes the game more like YuGiOh] "Thank you I am very smart"
I generally play YGO only (though I know the basic rules of other TCGs and play them casually once in a blue moon), but I would NEVER defend just how poorly ran this game is. It's a complete mess that's almost unsalvageable at this point.
@Jake Folk wtf are you talking about? Vanguard being made by konami, Yugioh having no skill, freaking complaining about chaos emperor errata, dude, share some of that stuff you take looks like it hits really hard
The totally insane take that ruined me was someone condescendingly remarking on the effort and money Konami would have to go through to make a department to Test cards. LIKE AN R&D DEPARTMENT AND PLAYTESTERS?
You also hit a big issue I have with the judge community. Rather than put up actual counter arguments, it's this whole elitist mentality of "well it's just too much" like wtf give me actual reasons why
Whats wild is that i bet the YGO judge test is probably a fuck load easier than the MTG one. All that layers shit you need to have down pat to even have a chance at the magic one from what old magic friends said since they managed to pass the test.
I think the weirdest thing is... we have the video games. They are coded to adhere to specific rulings. Even if it's not 1 to 1 consistent each game, it's still a pretty solid baseline to start from.
there are many things wrong with WotC but they do have passion for design and the game, the worst you can say of the design team is they sometimes push the boundary too hard.
@@joplin4434 To the point of making two cards that don't function as intended within the rules over the course of this year (and Serra Paragon still hasn't been fixed)
I have mad respect for YgoProDeck, but whenever I use the card database, it's just painfully obvious that it isn't Scryfall, or even Gatherer. Searches as simple as "Spell cards and Trap cards" or "Light monsters and Dark monsters" are impossible, and I find myself unable to really trust the underlying data in the same way. Cards in upcoming sets are also pretty annoying here, and only some of that is Konami's fault.
6:30 the fact that they pointed out that the OCG has a central location for their rulings but saying that’s impossible for the TCG just had me dead. Sure the rulings r different but the core of the game means that there’s bound to be a significant amount of overlap there
I think that’s a prime example that the rules of your game SHOULD NOT CHANGE depending on where you’re fucking playing. Either you unite the TCG and OCG rules to be the same, or you completely detach the TCG from the OCG and stop making the same cards for both. Konami has half-assed this for decades.
YES IT DOES. Even just being someone on the outside of TCG communities looking in (I love the central ideas behind these games, just don't think they're worth their cost), I have lost count of the number of times I have wished YuGiOh had something like MtG's comprehensive rules. I just don't understand how a game like this, where the way cards interact so often requires a very detailed understanding of the rules to figure out, can exist and *not have a rulebook.* (no, the rulebook that exists doesn't count - it doesn't have all the rules! It isn't even close to that! It would be worthy of its title to new players _if a proper rulebook existed,_ but none does!) edit - English is hard.
I was aware decks no longer come with the entire rulebook, but can't you download it off the site? I haven't checked it out but what rules aren't included? unless you mean every card interaction ever?
@@dragon-id5uj Yugioh's rulebook is pathetic. It doesn't even explain how to interpret PSCT,* which is to say, it doesn't even tell you how to interpret effects at the most basic level. If you think that's "too advanced" for the rulebook, notice that it doesn't explain that optional when effects can miss timing. Realistically, it isn't a bad document to give new players, but it's far from complete. There are very good reasons why MtG has a rulebook in a similar format to Yugioh's. But there are also very good reasons why MtG has a real rulebook published seperately from that. It is good, in competitive games, for players to be able to understand the game they play by reading the rules of their game. *It does explain what semicolons and colons mean. It doesn't make it clear that what is before the semicolon is cost and therefore _not part of an effect,_ but it does at least clarify the time at which you do the things before the semicolon. EDIT: I forgot you said that you hadn't read the rulebook. My reply used to start with "I'm guessing you never read the rulebook?."
The thing us the basic rules would be find but they never updated it to include PSCT and how to read it fully and that’s where 99% of issues come from. People not knowing basic rules.
Other fun details about the MTG Comprehensive Ruleboonk Yugioh can be envious about: - WotC has an actual position in the company called "Rules manager", a person whose entire job is making sure the rules work logically and are handled well. - A company-managed website (Gatherer) has all the updated card text as well as card-specific rulings in an easily searchable format. - With every set release, there is an accompanying PDF that is aimed exclusively at judges, where new interactions are explained and how you integrate them into the existing ruleset. Yugioh does a lot of good stuff, but boy does it manage its rules quagmire poorly. PSCT was a start, but they never finished the job.
@@meathir4921 The website doesn't have up to date cards, it only features the text of the latest printing. If the last time a card was printed was 2008 that's all you get, no PSCT or updated text to be seen. The magic database includes an updated modern text for every single card, even those that haven't been reprinted since 1993.
As someone who has experienced a commander stack battle that took 30 actual minutes to resolve, I can confirm that MTG has an insane ceiling for complex interactions.
You should see 3 level 2 judges pick on a fresh level 1 with judgebreaker decks. The rulings in that game will get bonkers about 100% of the time unless the newbie can combo off and defeat 3 judges by turn 2.
I said the same thing when I became a judge and have forever ended up on Julia's shit list. Of course I also pointed out every excuse she gave was invalidated by literally every other TCG/CCG that has done this either straight out of the gate, or adopted it a bit later like WoTC did. I don't know if the post on the adjudication page is still there or not, but it is really embarrassing when I hear from a judge "I don't know, let me check facebook and get back to you." This type of document would also prevent exceptions to rules as card design will now have to follow something other than what someone pulled out of a hat. We have quite of few contradictions in rulings. Great example is the Dangers and Galis the Starbird contradictory ruling.
Did you mean "Gallis the Star Beast?" "Galis" and "starbird" both don't exist in the card database, so Gallis is my best guess of what you meant. Out of curiosity, what was that contradictory ruling? Please tell me it isn't something like "you can reveal Gallis if it's already revealed, but you can't reveal a Danger! monster if it's already revealed." (edit - I am worse at typing than Distant Coder)
@@danielwappner1035 I don't know. It's my only guess for what the "contradictory ruling" mentioned in the original comment is, but I hope it is not the case.
@@delta3244 Yes I meant beast. And the ruling in question is non guaranteed summon effects being allowed to activate under things loke vanity's fiend or fossil dyna.
i didnt realize yugioh didnt have a rulebook until at a locals a weird interaction came up and the judge was confused so i asked "well cant you just check the rules?" and i got weird looks
@@halodragonmaster opponent flipped a TCobO after i targeted to destroy it with monster on field and the question was "will the floodgate effect start before it gets destroyed to remove cards on field" and the judge ruled it would because thats how skill drain works
@@halodragonmaster 1) Vanilla means it has no text. You must be meaning a "french vanilla", which means it only has keywords on it. 2) Fear hasn't been used in over a decade.
I literally lost out on winning my locals tournament the week the noble knight box came out (yknow the platinum rare one). All the normally serious/good players decided to goof around and play NK that week. I was maining ghostricks at the time. Judge said my Ghostrick Doll couldn't apply during the end phase because it was no longer on the field. Ghostrick Doll successfully activated and resolved but the judge was saying I couldn't apply the effect during the end phase because Doll was no longer on the field. I will never not hold onto this as an example of why we need a rulebook in yugioh like mtg has, losing a match purely because of an objectively incorrect judge ruling has to be the worst feeling in this game and dissuades me from playing IRL. Sure alt formats may entice me if they where properly supported but we still have this looming shadow of shitty rulings ruining a tournament held over us regardless. And for anybody reading this I am mostly just pissed that that was literally the only week EVER ghostricks could win a tournament where it 2-0s a YCS champ and multiple other good players, idc that it was a locals and idc that it took people goofing around with a bad archtype. I just wanted to be able to say I went undefeated with ghostricks.
if judges had to cite a section in a rule book to make a judgement it would avoid the issues of incorrect judges cause then the judge has to make the case instead of it being "trust me bro" and could be proven wrong.
The weirdest parts about the lack of rulebook are: 1) The OCG has a rulings database that is constantly updated. The TCG could just translate that officially, but they refuse to do their jobs and Ygorg has to do their jobs for them. 2) The TCG has cards ruled different from the OCG because they were printed _wrong_. Straight up different card text, a relevant example being Amorphactor Pain (its turn skip effect is not an activated effect in the OCG, you cant respond to it with an omni negate). This is also covered by a fanmade database, once again the fans have to cover up for Konami of America's incompetence and negligence.
Anyone else get the feeling they don't wanna criticize the game because they're afraid Konami is going to punish them and do something to the game? I can't imagine someone looking at the criticism "this game needs to explain its rules" and their take away being "no its impossible," be given an example of it being done in a more complex game, and still doubling down if this weren't the case.
I mean how would Konami TCG, that’s who people are complaining about, do something to the game when it’s the OCG branch that controls the game? The only thing Konami TCG does is try something and either gets indication that the players don’t care or gets mocked for doing so stops. MBT talked about the time they explained the banlist and everyone laughed at them because they didn’t just give ‘to sell new product’ as the reason. Despite the fact that ‘to sell new product’ is the reason for every restriction on any restriction list for a card game and not whatever reason they state. So what is the point of Konami TCG even bothering in their mind. Knowing us we would get a comprehensive rulebook and still complain.
@@mrbubbles6468 The game CANNOT survive if new players can't get in, and not having a comprehensive rulebook ensures that only people who already know the game will continue to play it. And those people won't be around forever. It is in the best interest of both Konami OCG and TCG to make the game actually playable and understandable because nostalgia and hard-core fans will only go so far.
@@mrbubbles6468 Missing context. They just literally did the most violent push for money in their entire history (literally banning everything that could've been used against the up and coming metagame way back when), and then tried to excuse themselves for whatever reason - what were players supposed to do but make fun at them for such a stupid move? Everyone knew what they did it, so what was even the point? It's not that people don't care anymore about what the TCG branch has to say, but that everytime they do, it's just "talk first, think later" and it just ends badly every single time. If they actually took their job seriously, I'm sure everyone would pay heed to what they have to say. It really isn't that hard - if the OCG can, so can they.
The best part is that a database of every ruling, which covers every card interaction possible, exists. It’s called Master Duel. All Konami has to do is take all the coding from master duel about card interactions and make a rulings database out of them.
TCG and OCG regarding Royal Tribute: "After both players discards all monsters in their hands, they must then reveal their hands to confirm to each other that there are no more monsters in either hands" Master Duel regarding Royal Tribute: "Dude, just trust me bro"
MD uses the OCG rulings, there are many interactions in MD which aren't possible in the TCG and at the same time there are alot of interactions which are possible in the TCG but not in MD. And at the same time MD also has alot of errors, like the fact that the Shizuku shuffle doesn't work.
@@bl00by_ Shizuku Shuffle does work in MD, you just have to summon Shizuku before you activate Multirole. I'm not sure if this is the intended ruling or not tho. The differences in rulings between the two formats like trigger effects in the hand, would make it difficult to just 1:1 copy MD rulings to a TCG database, but it could definitely be used as a basis from which to build upon in order to reduce the amount of work required.
The fact Master Duel was coded into a computer program means Yugioh has rules that can be codified, and Konami literally has that code, it just doesn't let you see it
The YGO rulebook only explains how each type of card works. It doesn't explain how interactions work or any of the psct. That stuff has to be learned on your own. An example being the whole "missing the timing" rules. Just having a comprehensive rule book that can be referenced for certain common interactions would be very helpful.
The lack of a rulebook is actually thematic with the game's premise. We all have to dig through ancient egyptian rulings like archeologists to discover the truth/lore behind a modern card game interaction. Just like the anime!!
True however, I don't want to have to become tomb raider just to resolve book of eclipse under there can be only one
I mean, the anime cardgame had rulebooks. It was just literal magic tended to mess with them.
@@mrbubbles6468 There were no rules in the anime. Kaiba pretty much made the first rule book in Battle City. Before that you could literally just do whatever. Like attack the moon or break flotation rings.
@@orga7777 Pegasus's rules may have been more liberal as far as battle is concerned but they did exist.
Players didn't just pull the stat effects of the environment (and how different environments interacted) out of their asses.
@@xCorvus7x I'm pretty sure they did. The real power of the millennium puzzle was to be able to bullshit better than your opponent at any given time
"who gets the effect then smart ass?" kills me every time I see it
Who gets the eff tho? 🤔
@@bl00by_ At first it was the person who summoned it but I think they updated it so the person who takes it can now. That still won't work for any effects that apply immediately like kali yuga though, only effects that'd trigger the next chain
Watching MBT try to explain layers to a bunch of yugioh players is the content we NEED
"Making a rulebook is too hard."
"But Magic has one."
"But YGO is so big and complex."
"Magic has it beat on both fronts, here's an example of a complex problem solved via the rulebook."
"That's too complex for my taste."
Doesn't that.... doesn't that prove the exact point though? If the game you find too complex is capable of having a rulebook, then surely the one you like can have one.
*I don't get what their point is.*
They just don't want to read
I think it’s more likely they mean they don’t understand the words on the cards in relation to the game
Like if you don’t play the card game how are you supposed to know the key words or effects
Even if you have a history of knowing card games sone games just trip you up (for example there’s a card game I can’t name where burn means banished and how would you as an outsider work that out)
half the people in the original twitter thread don't understand the difference between a rulebook and a list of rulings. "so you want a list of every single possible interaction between any cards??" no you bozo, I want a list of rules that card interactions fit into. in MBT's example, the comprehensive MTG rulebook doesn't just say "this is how opalescence works with humility", it has an actual in-depth explanation of how timing works, and you can figure out how the interaction works from there.
it doesn't help that mtg ALSO has a massive list of rulings/explanations for individual cards on gatherer, which the yugioh tcg totally lacks
This exactly! We don't need a list of every card and how it interacts with every other card, we need a list of all the different kinds of effects and how they interact with each of the other different kinds of effects.
It also has a list of some on Scryfall, which is my main way of searching for cards nowadays.
@@ThatOneWeirdFlex Right. But what Scryfall does is it just takes the individual card rulings from Gatherer.
As a MTG player primarily, the twine-and-tape rules engine of YGO has always been morbidly fascinating to me.
Well, the point is you should be able to understand and play by reading and most issues come up when people just simply don’t read or know how cards are meant to work. They don’t know PSCT. I almost respect the judges for telling their players to learn the basic game they are playing if not for the fact it is only the TCG that has this issue.
except that yugioh doesn't have a twine and tape ruleset. there are clearly defined rules for how literally everything in the game works.
it's just a matter of the people playing the game actually bothering to learn those rules.
there are flow charts you can look at that tell you how the resolution of a single effect works. sub-step by sub-step. from open game state, to activation, to resolution, and back to open game state, and every possible scenario in between. and on top of that, every other niche interaction has an underlying ruleset that causes it to resolve the way it does. these things are clearly defined, but access to said information isn't great, so even most judges don't understand a lot of it as well as they should.
do 99% of players know anything about this? no. they don't. hell, I didn't know a lot of it myself until DistantCoder went a whole big rant about it a couple months back.
yugioh also has a "layer" system, much like magic does, but not nearly as complex, or perhaps just not clearly defined. and even this is something most players don't really know about. most players don't know that monster effects take precedence over spells and traps, and spells take precedence over traps. why do most players not know this? because the need for such knowledge almost never comes up.
like the jinzo VS skill drain ruling he mentioned, technically jinzo should always take precedence over skill drain, but another rule is more important than that rule, making card type precedence kind of pointless in this instance. the rule of "which one was activated first?" because the last one gets negated. the precedence rules don't matter like 95% of the time, because other rules explain the interaction better and simpler.
even the opalescence/humility interaction he brought up isn't that complicated. it's literally just "which one hit the field first?". if it was opalescence, then everything is 4/4 (or whatever it's respective stats happen to be), and if it was humility first, then everything is 1/1. (assuming I'm reading the cards right. I don't know magic PSCT very well. I don't know if humility would reapply it's effect continuously or it's just applied at the time of activation and never again.)
@@GeneralNickles Cope
@@__-be1gk how?
@@GeneralNickles yeah except all of those rules are in 300 different sources, even the fucking psct isn't in the official ruling book
They should do it for every possible interaction that can, but they should also standardize the wording. If this means going back and rewording older cards to fit the new templating then do it! They've change the wording of older cards (waboku, necovalley). When everything is standardized then the 10,000 interactions will shrink since you only need to deal with the case and not the individual.
Magic for example has rules for what happens if an instant or sorcery some how get onto the battlefield (they don't even talk about HOW it got there, just what to do IF it gets there). So that's a single case that might happen one day and might happen in different ways, but the case is the same: What do I do if an instant or sorcery is put onto the battlefield?
Ok, this is more than enough to convince me ygo needs a much more detailed rulebook. I found that magic interaction to be pretty easy to understand, even though it was a pretty long explanation, but I wouldn't be able to understand a single word of what the hell he was talking about if that stuff wasn't in the rulebook. A rulebook like that in ygo would make life just soooo much more easier.
I mean, they have explained how such layering works in YGO with Jinzo and Skill Drain. The only reason MTG needs the rulebook is it was designed with for more complexity. The problem is the TCG rules different to OCG. And that has always been the issue.
@@mrbubbles6468 There's a second, I would argue more important, problem with Yugioh's rules: They've never been collected in one place.
In one place, you can find Jinzo vs. Skill Drain and learn how it works and why.
In another place, you can learn when you can activate effects and what the "proper/formal" way of playing a game is.
In another place, you can learn the differences between "also/also, after that,/and if you do/then/and."
In another place, you can learn how the damage step works
etc.
In no place, you can learn or reference the rules of the game in full. This, by far, is the biggest problem with Yugioh's rules imo.
@@mrbubbles6468 there's no way for a Yu-Gi-Oh player to find the official rules of the game.
That's a problem, regardless of how many rulesets there are.
There's not a single one that has them documented properly.
(Yes the OCG has a rulings database, No I don't find that to be adequate because of the way they grouped and separated rulings in a way that allows for cherry picking which has resulted in conflicting rulings that should be agreeing.)
A rule book would help sooo much.
The best example I can think of to why we need one is when the Paleozoics came out, the judges were determining how they work in real time and often in contradictory ways. What chains to what? Are they monsters or traps or both? What does flipping them into face down defense do?
It was chaos and a rule book that says how trap monsters work would preemptively fix a lot of these problems, and relying on precedent for these types of rulings is probably more labor intensive than just writing some comprehensive rules beforehand.
Both trap monsters and traps that are not traps but are monsters.
@@halodragonmaster
actualy old trap monsters state that they count as both traps and monsters which is why metal reflect slime can be destroyed with mst.
compared to newer trap monsters like paleos that only count as traps while in the s/t zone and only as monsters while in the monster zone.
@@uteriel282 that type of trap monsters are actually still printed. Take a look at Angel Statue Azurune for example
They shouldve started a rulebook with things like last turn way back in the day. But instead konami decided to sweep their mistake under the banlist rug and pretend it never happened in the first place. Banning problematic cards doesnt fix them, its just konami's way of saying "we made a mistake that we dont wanna deal with" now we have dozens of cards with ruling issues and no official refernce point to resolve those issues.
@@andreavitale7240 or Conqi and Huaquero.
Mtg is so nice for this. For each card released, there are several additional rulings that are added on a database to help explain some of the nuances of the card. If you ever have an issue with some card interaction, legit just lookup x card rulings and you will find it and its great. I’ve had many times when i have used the card “song of the dryads” and people looked at me confused on what it does, and i just pull up the page to back up my explanation of it. Its not about making every single interaction written, its just explaining the card in a coherent way such that whenever an issue arrises, it can help to clarify the solution/ where in the rulebook to find the solution
This literally happens for Yu-gi-oh in Japan, Konami just malds if you ever try to reference it since they clearly don't want to pay someone to translate it, nor have the balls to approve the fan translation. Among other things, these release rulings are also the only way to identify what classification certain effects are (especially when it comes to things like non-classified effects).
@@Skasaha_ a concept like a non-classified effect can't exist in magic, because any effect that would exist has to either fall into an existing rule or have a new rule classifying it.
@@vxicepickxv yeah, pretty much, it's completely different. Unclassified effects are the epitome of the Yugioh rule "card effects trump game rules". They can be pretty much anything, for example substitution effects (e.g. Balelynx) and summoning effects that don't activate (but aren't a summoning condition). They also are not activated effects, except for Kuribabylon's last effect because ignition effects can't be used in the battle phase but they wanted this one to do that. Because Konami Says So.
@@Skasaha_Magic also has a rule of “card effects trump game rules.” It’s actually written in the rulebook:
> 101. The Magic Golden Rules
>> 101.1. Whenever a card’s text directly contradicts these rules, the card takes precedence. The card overrides only the rule that applies to that specific situation. The only exception is that a player can concede the game at any time (see rule 104.3a).
Rarely will this happen, since Magic’s rules are very well thought through, but this rule acts as a failsafe for when nothing else helps. There is absolutely no reason Yugioh can’t also have this same rule in a hypothetical comprehensive rulebook. It’s just that Konami doesn’t give a fuck and would rather things go on as they are because players are still gobbling up the game despite its lack of rules.
I love how people talk about how not doable this is, but literally every other game does this. MTG has Gatherer and they make posts all the time. Pokemon has comprehensive rules posted whenever they introduce new mechanics. even the Digimon TCG just says fuck it and releases a PDF of every relevant ruling they thing players will ask whenever ANY new set comes out. Literally card by card explaining every effect and saying in plain text "Yes you can in fact do this and this, but not this because that's just how it works bucko"
I feel like one of the big issues with this is that rulings surrounding a particular card don't link to the same rulings on other cards when you're looking online. If they were to do this, it would be a lot easier to find the answers, rulebook or no rulebook
I don't want to have to think "what's the oldest card that has this kind of effect?" while looking for a card rulings. I was talking with the EDOPro devs once about how Stardust Dragon would interact with Limiter Removal, and even they didn't have the answer. I don't even remember what ruling we looked at for the answer, but it sure as hell wasn't a card I'd heard of before
I had a rule mcguffin in Master Duel yesterday where I was playing an entirely new engine/archetype that I hadn’t seen before, lost, saved the replay, and had to comb through like 9 turns worth of cards to figure out where the hell the ‘your opponent cannot activate Spell/Trap cards during the battle phase’ card was because the game didn’t acknowledge it as an effect activating.
that's because continous effects do not activate, that part is normal
@@joplin4434 Was a banished effect monster
@@dabbingtoast7743 it is still the same. Think of the classic makyura the destroyer, it says when it goes to the gy you can use traps from your hand that turn. You would think that this means it triggers when it hits the gy but nope, you cannot negate it as it doesn't "activate", it's just a continous effect with a condition.
Jinzo is an easier example, but further removed from this case. He has one condition (being face up on the field) and one continous effect, so cards that "negate an effect" do stop him like an effect veiler, but cards that "negate the activation of an effect" would do nothing to it so a solemn strike would be DOA if you normal summon the jinzo like it is against makyura and your case
3:12 - dammit... missed my vip!
11:00 - by like 8 min.
The MTG Rulebook has been compared to an actual Law School Education
If we get a YGO Rulebook I expect to at least get a community law degree
This is something Digimon Card Game did very well imo
Besides the Manual and Glossary it has both a Detailed Rules and a Q&A/General Rules document which go into rules for a variety of interactions between effects and they keep updating them as they add more effect types and mechanics
Master duel exists. They had to figure out the rules so that they could program the interactions in. The knowledge exists out there, but konami isn't sharing.
I'm shocked by how many people would rather just leave rulings to a judge's interpretation of the rules rather then a rulings book that says this is what happens and why. As it stands, rulings can vary from judge to judge and that creates even more confusion for not only the players but other judges down the line who may be looking back on past rulings only to see conflicting answers. They don't need ever interaction documented, but documenting tricky and problematic card interactions would make things better for everyone and give clear guidelines for how the game is played.
They must have some sense of groundrules for interactions. After all master duel exits and every interaction can happen on it. Therefore if it can be written in code it can be written in a rulebook.
"The amount of stuff you can do with magic cards far eclipses what you can do in yugioh"
Some guy made a computer using magic cards
You can probably do that with any game
@@mrbubbles6468 no the video states they've tried with other card games. you probably can't in yugioh due to limited zones
And, in that game where the starting life total is 20, people have found a way to do 2 ↑408 20 damage in a single turn without any infinite combo (for people unfamiliar with ↑ notation, know that it's used to write numbers so large they can't reasonably be represented as 10^(some large number), or 10^10^bignum, or 10^10^10^bignum, or... you get the point).
But that's not all! 2 ↑408 20 damage in a turn without infinites is old news. Nowadays, they have to use a completely different notation which expresses numbers so large, ↑ notation is impractical for them.
Beyond that, because of the way restrictions on blocking work in MtG, it is posssible for a gamestate to be reached where one player must solve a CoNP-hard problem for the game to continue following the rules.
MtG's rules engine is _fun._
@@delta3244 Its a beautiful level of skill ceiling with rules that let it be wild but understandable.
I realize that it's not the main part of this video but I died at the "Longer than the constitution.' because Jesus Christ the constitution isn't fucking long
The average yugioh player would melt like having witnessed the ark of the covenant if they had to solve Oko Elk-ing a Magus of the Moon
In their defense Oko was a mistake for numerous reasons.
This one is still bullshit, rulebook or otherwise lol
As a D/D/D enjoyer, I still don't know why you can steal your opponent's pendulum cards with Machinex despite Machinex's effect only working on Monsters (Master Duel). Pendulum monsters placed in the pendulum zone are treated as spells.
I don't know if this happens in other simulators or real life game.
You shouldn't be able to steal them if they're in the scale. You can only steal them if they're in the monster zone.
@@bl00by_ if i remember correctly, machinex can steal pendulums from the pendulum zone because he can steal "monster cards". If he only were able to steal monsters ("once per chain, when a monster your opponent controls....."), he would only be able to steal them from the monster zone. (to verify, i checked machinex' ocg ruling entry on yugipedia, which confirmed, that machinex can steal monster cards from the pendulum zone, vision hero's from the s/t zone etc.)
@@genisis6418 Good to know
@@genisis6418 Unfortunately this conflicts with basically every other interaction where pendulum monsters in scale are never treated as monsters. But BKSS, and the only way to ever know if it is ruled this way in the TCG is to ask the head judge at every single event.
it cuts off before he murders that chatter
This doesn’t even go into Gatherer.
They have a database of every single card, with errata, updated templating (PSCT), and - most importantly - *a list of potentially relevant rulings*.
The comment and rating sections on the site have been broken for the better part of a decade now and it’s *still* lightyears better than anything any other TCG has.
You're expecting more player based involvent from a company who released Master Duel 10 months ago and the only events they've held are "What If you couldn't use URs?" "What if it was only Synchros?"
And a new mates, fields and sleeves every few months. 🤣
I mean specifically because MD exists and has all of the cards there must be a complete set of rules programmed into it
MD is handled mostly by the OCG and works on those rulings. The OCG has a ruling database. So yws, I would expect one from the people that made MD as there is one.
I wouldn’t expect it for the TCG which neither the TCG or OCG cares about
@@mrbubbles6468 Why shold the TCG even be allowed to have different rules in the first place? So the tl team can fuck around?
@@PAPP0NE no, the TL is the same (most of the time, sometimes they goof). Just some rules make cards interact differently, and for no discernable reason. For example, in the OCG hand triggers act like quick effects, but in the TCG you just use them at actual trigger effect timing.
reminds me of a tournament the other day where i had a question about if Dragoon can be targeted in the grave because he says “this card cannot be targeted” which yeah would probably just be a face up continuous effect, as it turned out, but in order to verify it, THEY HAD TO LOOK IT UP FROM THE OCG
that would be incorrect since for some reason TCG and OCG has to be different in rulings.
And also "the gatherer" exists, where you can search for any specific card and it specifies all it's interactions defined in the rullings book
A way to help simply Yu-Gi-Oh rulings is to take the lead from MTG again, and to change how our key words work.
Our keywords of Destroy, Discard, Send and so on, don't hold a candle to how much effort key words in MTG do. Our key words are used as part of effects. Their key words are whole effects themselves!
Doing so would make a rulebook easier to create, and would somewhat lower the barrier of entry
Hey, they could be talking about the British constitution, which is like every law going back a thousand years.
12 min clip
yeah, this should be on the main channel tbh - i'd even watch a longer version too
when the clip is video
I want them to make a yugioh rulebook exclusivley because i want them to have to write down the one line of text that just says "Warrior of Atlantis works"
"precedent is less hard? practice law!"
OMG as an civil law student this speaks to me on so mamy levels: I studied the precedent-based system that people in America use and holy shit is that incomprehensible. Why do I have to refer to many similar cases in the past to know how I should judge one case, when I can have a book with EVERYTHING written on it? America's (and UK too) stubborness in keeping their common law precedent-oriented judicial system is fascinating to me, it sounds so clunky and unnecessarily hard
3:36 - Sadie's trying to chime in from afar.
Even the "Here's the basic's of the game" 'rulebook' you get is something that needs considerable improvement just to properly teach players how it works in common scenarios in a very clear manner, like they ain't helping with the players can't read meme.
A centralised true rulebook being needed is honestly such an old issue with Yugioh, see constant complaints about Judges making rulings that contradict core mechanics when cards involved don't have something that allows that kind of flexibility (counter trap not being able to respond to technically slower card if it says it can't be reacted to) that ruin experiences, that it has no excuse to not exist. Should have made one when Fusion Deck became Extra deck and nows its just sad there is no TCG one.
Master Duel despite some programming errors actually unifying the rulings for a game which you will end up playing against international opponents is a massive improvement. Separate rules between regions should only exist while cards are unique to said region, when they become worlds legal it must be unified.
Digimon, while being only a few years old, has an online database where you can look up each set and see an faq for rulings on each card. if someone sends in a new question and its relevant, they update the faq with the answers. super helpful and easy to look up while youre playing a tournament.
Ok, but whenever I'm reading the rulebook section on the Magic wiki, my glaze over and I start thinking about Goblins dancing to funny music.
as also a magic player this is so funny to me as magic proves that it is irrelevant how gamebreaking a card text is. "Henzie "Toolbox" Torre" is a card that might as well be a vanilla as the text on it literally does not work within the rules of magic the gathering, well at least it doesn't do what you think it would, and the problem is if you change the rules to make that card work you break an entire mechanic but you know what wotc just said screw it this card work like you think it should the rules mean nothing to us.
and this isn't even speaking about stuff like how wotc saw that a non deterministic infinite loop was popping up so they responded with answering the question how to rule it with screw you if you do a non deterministic loop thats staling for time even if after infinite amounts of repeats it will 100% win the game.
and the just to top it of there are joke sets in magic where you do stuff like throw a card from 2 meters away from the table and no player is allowed to move card while the spell is on the stack and all f that madness still works with the rules of the game
so you don't even need to talk about everything possible and if something arrises just change the rules to make it work and if that doesn't work make exception hat are officially stated
ps.: amarikans really do measure in anything but the metric system. yea this book is about 19 constitutions high and has a surface are of 1 halve constitution
at least there's still a full rulebook for 'how to play'
the wixoss tcg has been out for 8 years and there isn't even a single comprehensive rulebook on 'how to play' to be found even on their official site
Oh new MBT clip?
*Sees its about how MTG has a rullings data base*
Is this going where i think its going?
*pulls up Opalescence*
Oh it absolutely is
using the constitution as a unit of measurement is definitely the most American thing I've seen in a while xD
Based on one of my favorite commander game videos two people had a monster that made it so no one could lose but the owner couldn’t win. Meaning the 4 people were all trapped in fucking permanent limbo if no one had removal. In the end they all lost.
So I came back to this video and something I just realized is that with Master Duel out and functional, that means Konami 100% has a rule book like Magic The Gathering’s because THEY CODED IT INTO THEIR AUTOSIM!!! Just fucking print it Konami!
i love mtg rulings
i can search for a card on their website
and underneath the card text and what packs have it in what rarity
it has a log of every single ruling for that card
a tcg that has 22000 unique cards (based on a quick google search) compared to yugiohs 12000 (same sorta google search)
And most of thuse rulings directly refer you to the relevant rule in the Comprehensive Rules, so you can go there for a more in-depth explanation
If anyone ever tells me MTG is more complex than YGO I just laugh and think about the Yajiro Invader guy that Coder set to perm beginner on DB. That is the difference between MTG and YGO. YGO players get so pissy if someone is doing something creative. MTG players just go "wow man that's crazy I'm impressed"
A creature can become a permanent with no supertypes in MTG, within the rules of the game. Your move.
@@hazavair5755 ...is that impressive? I don't know MTG.
I mean, in MTG you'll probably get a little pissy mid combo but at some point you'll go straight to being impressed again. Mostly because who the fuck actually decides to run the Turing Complete deck against someone that isn't their friend?
I think the wildest parts are when Konami just goes "this is how the interaction works" and by virtue of being the game creators and authority their rule is law on the subject and that's how the interaction works, but also *if you read the cards the ruling on the interaction is clearly wrong.*
Also, the vast majority of a typical yugioh card's text at this point is restrictions dictating when and how it can be used, and only a small portion of it indicates what the card actually does. And most of those conditions are recurring and exact from card to card yet still arbitrarily written out long form in full sentences. How does the game not have "Hard OPT" as shorthand text for instance
How DARE you say that Yu-Gi-Oh should be easier to understand?! Obviously we shouldn't know what Last Turn and Pole Position do and apply, what a foolish suggestion! Anyways, normal Aleister, response?
I'm a MTG judge who plays YGO occasionally and this is one of my main gripes with the game. It's completely impossible to figure some things out on your own. Mind you, YGO is not the only CCG with this issue, Hearthstone has this exact issue as well.
Other TCGs have Comprehensive Rules, but Yu-Gi-Oh! It is the one that doesn't. Weird.
Edit: I feel like if it had a comprehensive rule book, it would be so much easier to understand instead of digging through the lost archives of the OCG Rulings. Since one thing TCG judges say is something along the lines they cannot look up the OCG Rulings, I think?
tbh, the rule book would just be a lot of references to the other easier-to-understand scenarios
The nerve of saying "Precedent is easier than rules" to a law student.
Ahh, yugioh not having a consistent ruling board kinda explains the batshit crazy stuff they do and say their cards do in the TV show XD
MTG was originally designed mostly by phd mathematicians and computer scientists (not a joke, the creator had a phd in Combinatorial Mathematics and hired his friends from the program to be some of the first designers). I think that framework led magic to have a more robust rules engine that allows for some of the most ridiculously complex scenarios, but in a programmatic and predictable way that lends itself to having a rule book. The issue with yugioh is they have too many conflicting rulings that they would have to change the way a lot of cards work for a scenario in a rulebook to be consistent across the board. I think a yugioh rulebook is absolutely possible, but it would take a lot of work, and frankly may take some more talented staff than konami has on hand to do it.
The fact that Yugioh has an official rules engine in Master Duel suggests that Konami understands the rules of its game - or at least its programmers do. Given that, it _should_ be possible for them to write a proper rulebook, though as you say, it might take a lot of skill to do so well.
@@delta3244 not having someone to do it well might be honestly what is stopping them. That and the fact the playets don’t even understand or tead their cards so what’s the point in giving them a rulebook they’ll never read. It’s probably easier just to come up with stuff on the fly at tournaments because most games don’t involve judge calls,
Pokemon TCG has a compendium as well, technically unofficial but it's as good as you can get
"It's called precedent and it's actually easier than writing an entire handbook of every possible situation." As someone who works at a legal publisher...PRECEDENT IS WRITTEN DOWN AND THERE IS A (COMMERCIALLY) SEARCHABLE DATABASE!!
Yu-Gi-Oh players will accept stagnate neglect when not only is a document possible it wouldn't be hard. A project like this is not an every shifting surface, every time you pin down an interaction you'd be closer to the goal and by the time you'd be done there will only be a single digit number of cards that came out in the mean time that also need this treatment. Then the upkeep could be done annually at low cost. There isn't a TCG that exists that would cost as much to do this as Yu-Gi-Oh players think it would.
The size comment is such a brain rot take. Like i hope it wont be a literal book people have to pull out. Itll be a database/pdf you can search for the specific cards youre looking for. Its also not like they dont have the rulings already. They just need to take time to make it. And the best part is if its a database and they accidentally make a card that makes an old ruling broken so they change it, you can just edit the page and add a footnote like "if you are playing in formats before x master rule this ruling applies"
Also as someone who likes yugiog but only plays link evolution, this is one of the things preventing new players from joining locals/competitive. Like i know how to play yugioh but i dont understand it. You just have to know all the rulings or just hope your opponent isnt gonna shark a game against a noob and actually teach you how to play. At least with sims they prevent weird rulings getting sharked but they also dont explain why so you dont learn anything.
Then add in learning how the multiple decks work and to counter them basically involves playing them which means spending money on archetypes you might not enjoy.... hell just watch many of the sealed series yugitubers have. Many competent players lose matches because they forget how cards interact.
Someone literally made a Turing machine using a deck of 60 MTG cards. If MTG can have a DAMN COMPUTER FOR A DECK and still have a comprehensible rulebook then why can't YuGiOh?
MBT, where is your secret second MtG content channel. MBT, I want to see you do more Magic stuff
Before I went to a regionals I downloaded a rule list a-z it was like a book
Former YuGiOh! player here.
Nowadays i am a MTG Tournament Grinder and that is actually one of the things that drew me to MTG over yugioh
every time some glue eater striker player or eldlich player who snorts floodgates cut with xanax tries to talk about how ygo is so much more complex than mtg, I what to hand them something like modern amulet titan, old flash hulk cedh decks, legacy lands, doomsday. Decks with either play patterns more difficult to solve than anything konami could try to make or are dependant on edgecase interactions that, if they did not exist (ie, activating mana abilities happens faster than instant speed so you can float mana from karoolands while the trigger that bounces them is still on the stack) would cause the deck not to exist. and all of these aren’t niche decks that only exist on magical Christmas land, these have all been the best deck in their format at some time, and are all tiered to this day
I don't understand. As a Magic player, I genuinely don't get it. Wouldn't it be nice to look up a card, and it says "if an effect would change control of this monster while its effect is in a chain, *this happens*"? And wouldn't it be nice to have rulings be CONSISTENT! I watched a Coder video awhile ago, and he was advocating that players using a certain card go up to the head judge to see how they would be ruling an interaction, because there was a tournament that used a different ruling?! Wtf is that shit?!
there will never be anything in yugioh as comprehensive as the big book of mtg rulings but there really needs to be something like the ocg database for tcg
Rome wasnt built in a day
@@Sandalphonium Konami ain't building it tho
@@Sandalphonium Rome won't be built at all if there are no workers.
@@Sandalphonium it was still built
@@Sandalphonium They’ve had over a decade
YGO players "our game is very complex" Any MTG player that has talked to another player that has happened to take the judge exam to even become a judge "Nice YGO rules you got there, here's how layers work and that you have to understand them to even pass the judge exam" Me " yeah f that judging stuff it's too big for my brain". As a former MTG player I've literally used their data base to look up cards i had questions about and literally found answers to interactions that i was looking for. The fact that YGO doesnt have one is wild. I also think the MTG card that has the most amount of possible ruling in that data base is Karn Liberated. Because the ruling even have ruling about multiplayer games since Karn can reset the game and the rulings literally explain how to restart the game properly in all circumstances.
gotta keep an eye out for those ancient egyptian yu gi oh rulings, they really can get ya
ppl unironically saying "yugioh's rules are too complicated for a rulebook" are fucking unbelievable. like if the rules are that complicated, that's EXACTLY WHY YOU *NEED* A RULEBOOK
It seems like people understood "every interaction with every card" no, in the case of Satellarknight Skybridge it's just it's interaction with a Spell Speed 1 effect of stealing a monster, any card that does that applies, simple.
To be fair, Konami would probably try and fit everything on one page to save paper and end up using .0003 size font.
@Shia Lebeouf: Life Coach Yeah, like a completely different Forbidden/limited list or having the whole thing be written in palindromes.
@Shia Lebeouf: Life Coach Heck, the Japanese team working with the American team to get the cards release at the same time would be great.
No more cramming the text box with kanji, then ignoring the consequences.
It's not just that it's complex though, it's also that card rulings have exceptions.
For example, you can activate interupted kaiju slumber when your opponent controls a kaiju even though players can only control one kaiju.
In every other similar instance you can't activate the card.
Including instances invovling Slumber. e.g. you can't activate Slumber under Vanity's Ruler.
Does Magic have these?
(Although actually, yeah they should assemble the OCG rulings database into some sort of super-rulebook. I doubt people would read it though, they don't even read the regular rulebook: many of the commonly disputed interactions are literally in there already.)
Let's just be honest, whoever handles the TCG rulings was procrastinating at first, and now they've realized just how much work they have to do and refuse to do it. As an MtG player who transitioned to Yugioh, I can say without a doubt that I can only play Yugioh on Master Duel because otherwise I can't realistically trust a judge call that could change on a whim because it's up to how the judge is feeling that day
I would say that probably is the worst thing about competitive yugioh in general. You really need to understand your rulings because there's no official oracle with rulings that is consistent across regions and then you're also depending on the judges who dole out rulings to also know what they're talking about.
Adding onto what both of you said, Distant Coder's all-too-common line "X should probably be ruled this way, but make sure you ask your head judge how it will be ruled in advance if your strategy relies on X" (quoted from memory) is such a perfect representation of this problem.
it worked well enough early on due to the genreal simplicity with few uncommon examples.
Lemme guess 0 tops?
If you go to Ygorg and search for rulings, you'll see that not only the OCG regularly releases rulings updates, they spent the past few months doing a bunch of ruling consolidations and listing every card where that same situation applies. Meanwhile the TCG simply doesn't give a fuck about us.
I knew Yugioh brainrot had gone too far once I saw someone ask "is this in the rulebook" while MBT was looking at an entry from the MTG rulebook.
Not gonna lie that rulebook page does look more like a fourm thread than a ruling document so i understand the confusion a bit.
@@tmoney1487 Thats because its the MTG wikipage citing the rulebook, like how ygo wikis cite the OCG database rulings in rulings pages.
@@tmoney1487 I mean you guys don’t even have rule books so I can understand the confusion
@@f1fanatic241 We technically do have a rulebook but it's so basic and lack a TON of critical information. It's as bare bones as it gets and will absolutely wreck a new player when they try to go to locals knowing only what's in that book.
@@blackmark2899 can you imagine going to locals after reading the official rule book from like 2002 and playing against Floowandereeze or something 😂
I once had a *head judge* at a regional rule on the following chain:
1. I activated System Down
2. My opponent chained ABC-Dragon Buster effect to tribute itself to special summon A-Assault Core, B-Buster Drake, and C-Crush Wyvern
that my opponent could then ACTIVATE UNION HANGAR'S EFFECT TO EQUIP A BUSTER DRAKE TO ASSAULT CORE TO KEEP IT FROM GETTING BANISHED. A head judge ruled that you could activate a spell speed 1 trigger effect during the resolution of a chain...I scooped and left the tournament.
So yeah, Yu-Gi-Oh! desperately needs a comprehensive rulebook, not a basic rulesheet.
You should have beaten the judge with a large rock
I am pretty sure union hanger would try to resolve on a different chain.
Edit: you did the right thing by leaving
I had a head judge rule they could barrone my judgement
i had a head judge after an appeal rule i could choose to not pay taxes because im a sovereign citizen
@@artificialallium JUDGEMENT A COUNTER TRAP THOUGH!?
"multiple constitutions long" might actually be the single funniest sentence ever written
The US Constitution is less than 5k words, 8k if you count all the amendments. Just for comparison, the first Harry Potter book is a bit under 80k words, and that wasn't exactly a heavy read lol
To be fair, we don't know that it was the US Constitution they were referring to. India's Constitution, for instance, is 145,000 words long.
@@OmgPuppiesthat would require Americans to both be smart enough to read Indian texts AND not be aggressively xenophobic.
@@ThatOneWeirdFlex Yeah fuck India! America Strong! Cricket win USA #1!!!!
@@ThatOneWeirdFlexDoesn't India constantly have searches for SA victims spike up on adult video streaming platform?
The answer is yes.
It’s more like the British constitution, which is like infinitely long
My favorite part of the rule book is the part where it says that XYZ summons can be done with monsters of the same level, but conveniently forgets to mention "except tokens, lol" unless you go to the ass end of the book in "other rules", where it is a single sentence. Literally treated exactly like any other monster, except in one situation, because they didn't want to handle using a token as a material for XYZ summons.
I spent hours trying to find where in the world it explains that, turns out it was the small font on the bottom of the damn chicken nuggets box rather than the large font on the receipt.
CORRECT
So what your telling me is the rulebook worked exactly like people are wishing the rulebook worked and yet that still wasn’t good enough?
No wonder they stopped printing rulebooks.
@@mrbubbles6468 no people would wish for it to be well structured. No reason to not say except tokens in the xyz summon requirements. Redundancys also not a problem put it into other rules as well.
@@mrbubbles6468 No, because they have an entire section dedicated to XYZs with dead space.
This isn't, "muh, the rulebook works, but its not good enough", this is "even the basic bitch shit they got is bad." This is like putting all the mathematical formulas in a physics book in the fucking glossary.
@@freaki0734 I mean, basic rule at the front and specific rule regarding something that you’d only end up needing to know if you added to your SD with outside cards at the back seems like a well structured and simple way of doing things if you ask me. Problem is they are never consistent with stuff like that.
I can see why yugioh players are adverse to a rulebook.
It's just so much text they have to read. They can't even read their own cards.
And what’s funnier is that most players won’t even have to read said rulebook. Comprehensive rules are mainly for judges to reference when disputes come up.
"The official rulebook has a list of every type of effect and the order in which they apply if they happen at the same time so if you have effects A, B and C happening you can simply look at the rulebook, see that A is this type, B is that type, and C is this other type, so the order they apply in is C, A, B" just makes infinitely more sense to me as a system of rules for a game than "well there's this precedent in the OCG database for something kinda like this but the judges aren't supposed to use that so they just wing it"
I really don't understand why judges wouldn't want a book like that, if only because it would make it a lot easier to deal with players who insist "But at the store I usually play at, we do it *this* way!"
It would take away their geek boner of "being right just because".
But then the head judge couldn't pull the "because I say so" card anymore. XD Remember when the head judge of a remote duel YCS said before the tournament that you can use Raye's eff to summon Zeke?
Because an issue that actually requires a judge comes up so infrequently in the grand scheme of things that writing a rule book is not worth the effort when coming up with rules on the spot will work and the can immediately be changed.
@@mrbubbles6468 You sir, have obviously never judged competitve yugioh. Back in the pre-XYZ days I would judge my locals that never went above 30 players, and the ammount of rulings disputes I had to adjucate in a given week was fairly substantial. Considering how many layers of complexity have been added to the game SINCE then exponentially increasing required rules knowledge - saying disputes come up too infrequently is disingenuous at best.
@@mrbubbles6468 That is outright false. Even at locals a judge is called or a ruling is looked up constantly.
MBT has the same energy as Sajam talking about rollback netcode
people are treating real basic stuff as luxury simply cause the creators never put in the effort
rollback is actually really hard to make well but it is still absolutely worth implementing
That is an amazing point yeah. These things are REALLY hard to do and make, but guess what, IT'S THEIR JOB.
Someone mentioned it in that twitter thread, but yes the way that Bushiroad handles their card rulings (or at least Japanese bushiroad cause the English sites haven't updated in years) is that they have a QnA section on their website where you can look up individual cards, keywords, or general game mechanic rulings and get rulings on those interactions. In cases where a previous ruling on an old card interaction would essentially provide the same answer, the newer cards would be tagged onto that old ruling, thus implying that the old ruling applies just as much with the new cards.
All we need is just a easily accessible and updated database where important rulings can just be looked up and presented as undisputed fact by konami.
But no that would take actual effort. this is konami we're talking about.
"presented as undisputed fact by konami" exactly
How can they not realize how important that is. I don't not play with the ban list when it comes out, even tho I could, because i respect it's authority; the rulings should have that same level of weight
Vangaurd is not a comparable game for complexity.
ans for this database to be accessed from that app hardly anyone uses, yugioh neuron
@@winnkey Wow, way to completely miss the point of the comment. Was he comparing complexity? No. He was saying that Bushiroad has a *Q&A SITE* dedicated to *CARD RULINGS AND HOW THEY INTERACT WITH OTHER CARDS* and was saying that Konami just needs to do the same thing for Yugioh. He was not saying "Vanguard is just as complex as Yugioh". He was saying "Yugioh needs to do something similar to what Vanguard does in terms of card rulings and interactions", which is to have a dedicated site that you can pull up whenever and look at certain interactions. Which yes, Yugioh does need that, because 90% of the rulings in this game sound like pure bullshit a judge just pulled out of his ass if you hear it the first time without any knowledge that that is indeed how said cards function together. There's a reason this game is considered the hardest one to get into for new players, and the bullshit card rulings is one of the many reasons why.
@@winnkey and yugioh can’t be compared to how complex mtg is. Yet mtg has a massive database for rulings and timings. Awkward…
how dare people want Yu-Gi-Oh to be less of an uncomprehensible mess than it currently is! how am I supposed to shark people at locals if they gain a better understanding of the game?
U/mkklrd spotted in the wild
Two times now I've had to tell floo enjoyers that the continuous spell can't sac unaffected monsters but can activated unaffected
I generally like the YGO Community, but the group of people that play only YGO and clearly have never touched another card game are consistently the ones with the most insufferable takes
God actually so true
"Here's how you make vanguard/digimon/whatever better"
[proceeds to propose the most dogshit unbalanced changes and "fixes" that just makes the game more like YuGiOh]
"Thank you I am very smart"
I generally play YGO only (though I know the basic rules of other TCGs and play them casually once in a blue moon), but I would NEVER defend just how poorly ran this game is. It's a complete mess that's almost unsalvageable at this point.
@Jake Folk With an attitude like that, you're probably driving the MTG players you know to Yugioh.
@Jake Folk wtf are you talking about? Vanguard being made by konami, Yugioh having no skill, freaking complaining about chaos emperor errata, dude, share some of that stuff you take looks like it hits really hard
The totally insane take that ruined me was someone condescendingly remarking on the effort and money Konami would have to go through to make a department to Test cards.
LIKE AN R&D DEPARTMENT AND PLAYTESTERS?
Hearing MBT voice crack while yelling "Practice laaaaw" gives me joy
I almost wanted someone in chat to go ‘i do. Law is way easier to understand’
@@mrbubbles6468 MBT himself was a law student
I love that this video is mbt just making a proper and reasonable statement and his chat so not understanding how reasonable this is. Well said 100%
You also hit a big issue I have with the judge community. Rather than put up actual counter arguments, it's this whole elitist mentality of "well it's just too much" like wtf give me actual reasons why
Beeg word make monke brain hurrtttt
It would probably put loads of them out of a ‘job’.
Most Yu-Gi-Oh player (including judge) barely read their 5 sentence long effect in the card. Do you really think they can actually read a book?
The reason why is that the Yugioh judges are half braindead. If you watch any event on livestream, you can see that clear as day.
Whats wild is that i bet the YGO judge test is probably a fuck load easier than the MTG one. All that layers shit you need to have down pat to even have a chance at the magic one from what old magic friends said since they managed to pass the test.
I think the weirdest thing is... we have the video games.
They are coded to adhere to specific rulings.
Even if it's not 1 to 1 consistent each game, it's still a pretty solid baseline to start from.
Exactly. Konami DOES have a comprehensive ruleset. They just refuse to print it the fuck out and let us READ it.
Every day I grow more thankful for the mere existence of Gatherer and the devs of mtg actually liking the card game they make
there are many things wrong with WotC but they do have passion for design and the game, the worst you can say of the design team is they sometimes push the boundary too hard.
They also credit their artists.
@@joplin4434 To the point of making two cards that don't function as intended within the rules over the course of this year (and Serra Paragon still hasn't been fixed)
I have mad respect for YgoProDeck, but whenever I use the card database, it's just painfully obvious that it isn't Scryfall, or even Gatherer. Searches as simple as "Spell cards and Trap cards" or "Light monsters and Dark monsters" are impossible, and I find myself unable to really trust the underlying data in the same way. Cards in upcoming sets are also pretty annoying here, and only some of that is Konami's fault.
6:30 the fact that they pointed out that the OCG has a central location for their rulings but saying that’s impossible for the TCG just had me dead. Sure the rulings r different but the core of the game means that there’s bound to be a significant amount of overlap there
I think that’s a prime example that the rules of your game SHOULD NOT CHANGE depending on where you’re fucking playing. Either you unite the TCG and OCG rules to be the same, or you completely detach the TCG from the OCG and stop making the same cards for both. Konami has half-assed this for decades.
I love the fact that MTG has close to 50k cards, say 45k, if you cut out lands, and still is better put together then Yugioh when it comes to rulings.
And even then some of those lands have effects that impact the game 😆
@@blasterprimed Urborg has entered the chat
YES IT DOES. Even just being someone on the outside of TCG communities looking in (I love the central ideas behind these games, just don't think they're worth their cost), I have lost count of the number of times I have wished YuGiOh had something like MtG's comprehensive rules. I just don't understand how a game like this, where the way cards interact so often requires a very detailed understanding of the rules to figure out, can exist and *not have a rulebook.*
(no, the rulebook that exists doesn't count - it doesn't have all the rules! It isn't even close to that! It would be worthy of its title to new players _if a proper rulebook existed,_ but none does!)
edit - English is hard.
I was aware decks no longer come with the entire rulebook, but can't you download it off the site? I haven't checked it out but what rules aren't included? unless you mean every card interaction ever?
@@dragon-id5uj Yugioh's rulebook is pathetic. It doesn't even explain how to interpret PSCT,* which is to say, it doesn't even tell you how to interpret effects at the most basic level. If you think that's "too advanced" for the rulebook, notice that it doesn't explain that optional when effects can miss timing.
Realistically, it isn't a bad document to give new players, but it's far from complete. There are very good reasons why MtG has a rulebook in a similar format to Yugioh's. But there are also very good reasons why MtG has a real rulebook published seperately from that.
It is good, in competitive games, for players to be able to understand the game they play by reading the rules of their game.
*It does explain what semicolons and colons mean. It doesn't make it clear that what is before the semicolon is cost and therefore _not part of an effect,_ but it does at least clarify the time at which you do the things before the semicolon.
EDIT: I forgot you said that you hadn't read the rulebook. My reply used to start with "I'm guessing you never read the rulebook?."
The thing us the basic rules would be find but they never updated it to include PSCT and how to read it fully and that’s where 99% of issues come from. People not knowing basic rules.
Other fun details about the MTG Comprehensive Ruleboonk Yugioh can be envious about:
- WotC has an actual position in the company called "Rules manager", a person whose entire job is making sure the rules work logically and are handled well.
- A company-managed website (Gatherer) has all the updated card text as well as card-specific rulings in an easily searchable format.
- With every set release, there is an accompanying PDF that is aimed exclusively at judges, where new interactions are explained and how you integrate them into the existing ruleset.
Yugioh does a lot of good stuff, but boy does it manage its rules quagmire poorly. PSCT was a start, but they never finished the job.
We do have a website with up to date cards… just doesn’t have rulings.
@@meathir4921 The website doesn't have up to date cards, it only features the text of the latest printing. If the last time a card was printed was 2008 that's all you get, no PSCT or updated text to be seen. The magic database includes an updated modern text for every single card, even those that haven't been reprinted since 1993.
@@samueledefilippo9955 Ah, fair.
@@samueledefilippo9955 well, almost all the information. There's a few that got disappeared.
i need that "PRACTICE LAW" into a voice clip
As someone who has experienced a commander stack battle that took 30 actual minutes to resolve, I can confirm that MTG has an insane ceiling for complex interactions.
You should see 3 level 2 judges pick on a fresh level 1 with judgebreaker decks. The rulings in that game will get bonkers about 100% of the time unless the newbie can combo off and defeat 3 judges by turn 2.
I said the same thing when I became a judge and have forever ended up on Julia's shit list. Of course I also pointed out every excuse she gave was invalidated by literally every other TCG/CCG that has done this either straight out of the gate, or adopted it a bit later like WoTC did. I don't know if the post on the adjudication page is still there or not, but it is really embarrassing when I hear from a judge "I don't know, let me check facebook and get back to you." This type of document would also prevent exceptions to rules as card design will now have to follow something other than what someone pulled out of a hat. We have quite of few contradictions in rulings. Great example is the Dangers and Galis the Starbird contradictory ruling.
Did you mean "Gallis the Star Beast?" "Galis" and "starbird" both don't exist in the card database, so Gallis is my best guess of what you meant.
Out of curiosity, what was that contradictory ruling? Please tell me it isn't something like "you can reveal Gallis if it's already revealed, but you can't reveal a Danger! monster if it's already revealed."
(edit - I am worse at typing than Distant Coder)
@@delta3244 Can you reveal Gallis if it's already revealed, but can you not do that with a Danger! ?
@@danielwappner1035 I don't know. It's my only guess for what the "contradictory ruling" mentioned in the original comment is, but I hope it is not the case.
@@delta3244 Yes I meant beast. And the ruling in question is non guaranteed summon effects being allowed to activate under things loke vanity's fiend or fossil dyna.
@@scott898586 Thank you.
i didnt realize yugioh didnt have a rulebook until at a locals a weird interaction came up and the judge was confused so i asked "well cant you just check the rules?" and i got weird looks
My sympathies.
What was the weird interaction btw?
@@halodragonmaster opponent flipped a TCobO after i targeted to destroy it with monster on field and the question was "will the floodgate effect start before it gets destroyed to remove cards on field" and the judge ruled it would because thats how skill drain works
@@halodragonmaster I bet it was Poleposition XD
"Attacking with vanilla 3/3s in draft" Fun fact: there are currently no vanillas legal in Standard right now
Fear?
@@halodragonmaster
1) Vanilla means it has no text. You must be meaning a "french vanilla", which means it only has keywords on it.
2) Fear hasn't been used in over a decade.
There are more banned cards than vanillas in standard.
@@kateslate3228 There are more cards that don't function as intended than vanillas in standard.
I literally lost out on winning my locals tournament the week the noble knight box came out (yknow the platinum rare one). All the normally serious/good players decided to goof around and play NK that week. I was maining ghostricks at the time. Judge said my Ghostrick Doll couldn't apply during the end phase because it was no longer on the field. Ghostrick Doll successfully activated and resolved but the judge was saying I couldn't apply the effect during the end phase because Doll was no longer on the field.
I will never not hold onto this as an example of why we need a rulebook in yugioh like mtg has, losing a match purely because of an objectively incorrect judge ruling has to be the worst feeling in this game and dissuades me from playing IRL. Sure alt formats may entice me if they where properly supported but we still have this looming shadow of shitty rulings ruining a tournament held over us regardless.
And for anybody reading this I am mostly just pissed that that was literally the only week EVER ghostricks could win a tournament where it 2-0s a YCS champ and multiple other good players, idc that it was a locals and idc that it took people goofing around with a bad archtype. I just wanted to be able to say I went undefeated with ghostricks.
if judges had to cite a section in a rule book to make a judgement it would avoid the issues of incorrect judges cause then the judge has to make the case instead of it being "trust me bro" and could be proven wrong.
The weirdest parts about the lack of rulebook are:
1) The OCG has a rulings database that is constantly updated. The TCG could just translate that officially, but they refuse to do their jobs and Ygorg has to do their jobs for them.
2) The TCG has cards ruled different from the OCG because they were printed _wrong_. Straight up different card text, a relevant example being Amorphactor Pain (its turn skip effect is not an activated effect in the OCG, you cant respond to it with an omni negate). This is also covered by a fanmade database, once again the fans have to cover up for Konami of America's incompetence and negligence.
Anyone else get the feeling they don't wanna criticize the game because they're afraid Konami is going to punish them and do something to the game?
I can't imagine someone looking at the criticism "this game needs to explain its rules" and their take away being "no its impossible," be given an example of it being done in a more complex game, and still doubling down if this weren't the case.
I mean how would Konami TCG, that’s who people are complaining about, do something to the game when it’s the OCG branch that controls the game?
The only thing Konami TCG does is try something and either gets indication that the players don’t care or gets mocked for doing so stops. MBT talked about the time they explained the banlist and everyone laughed at them because they didn’t just give ‘to sell new product’ as the reason. Despite the fact that ‘to sell new product’ is the reason for every restriction on any restriction list for a card game and not whatever reason they state.
So what is the point of Konami TCG even bothering in their mind.
Knowing us we would get a comprehensive rulebook and still complain.
@@mrbubbles6468 The game CANNOT survive if new players can't get in, and not having a comprehensive rulebook ensures that only people who already know the game will continue to play it. And those people won't be around forever. It is in the best interest of both Konami OCG and TCG to make the game actually playable and understandable because nostalgia and hard-core fans will only go so far.
@@mrbubbles6468 Missing context. They just literally did the most violent push for money in their entire history (literally banning everything that could've been used against the up and coming metagame way back when), and then tried to excuse themselves for whatever reason - what were players supposed to do but make fun at them for such a stupid move? Everyone knew what they did it, so what was even the point?
It's not that people don't care anymore about what the TCG branch has to say, but that everytime they do, it's just "talk first, think later" and it just ends badly every single time. If they actually took their job seriously, I'm sure everyone would pay heed to what they have to say. It really isn't that hard - if the OCG can, so can they.
“You think precedent is less hard? Practice law!” As a law student i agree
The best part is that a database of every ruling, which covers every card interaction possible, exists.
It’s called Master Duel.
All Konami has to do is take all the coding from master duel about card interactions and make a rulings database out of them.
TCG and OCG regarding Royal Tribute: "After both players discards all monsters in their hands, they must then reveal their hands to confirm to each other that there are no more monsters in either hands"
Master Duel regarding Royal Tribute: "Dude, just trust me bro"
MD uses the OCG rulings, there are many interactions in MD which aren't possible in the TCG and at the same time there are alot of interactions which are possible in the TCG but not in MD.
And at the same time MD also has alot of errors, like the fact that the Shizuku shuffle doesn't work.
@@LChaos2 Hasn't konami changed that ruling for tournaments, because of cards like Mind Crush?
@@LChaos2 I mean to be fair, it just works. That’s the benefit of simulators. A lot of the stuff the computer can just check or know instantly.
@@bl00by_ Shizuku Shuffle does work in MD, you just have to summon Shizuku before you activate Multirole. I'm not sure if this is the intended ruling or not tho.
The differences in rulings between the two formats like trigger effects in the hand, would make it difficult to just 1:1 copy MD rulings to a TCG database, but it could definitely be used as a basis from which to build upon in order to reduce the amount of work required.
The fact Master Duel was coded into a computer program means Yugioh has rules that can be codified, and Konami literally has that code, it just doesn't let you see it
The YGO rulebook only explains how each type of card works. It doesn't explain how interactions work or any of the psct. That stuff has to be learned on your own. An example being the whole "missing the timing" rules. Just having a comprehensive rule book that can be referenced for certain common interactions would be very helpful.