Star Trek Retro Review: "Scorpion" | Borg Episodes
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ย. 2024
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#startrek #startrekvoyager #review #borg
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Chakotay: "They're an unbeatable enemy - we have no way on stopping them!"
Janeway: "We have one. Program the endless amount of shuttles we have to fly directly into them until their ship is destroyed..."
Tuvok: We'll run out of enemies before we run out of shuttlecraft, captain."
I think the damage taken by NX-01 by the end of the Xindi season is a great example of what Voyager could have been like had the writers cared more about the premise.
Actually, a better example would be nuBattlestar Galactica. Moore left after a short stint in the Voyager writers room and basically did his own version of Voyager later on. I also hear that it was a combination of Berman being too stuck in the TNG days to change Voyager and the much higher ups especially UPN also wanting/thinking the same thing. Flagship show and all.
tbh I think Enterprise Season 3 is basically Voyager "done right"
The fact the NX-01 gets its arse kicked so thoroughly by the Xindi and then has to just live with that damage until the beginning of the next season is incredible! And definitely something I wish Voyager had done.
I always said the ENT episode 'dead stop' would have been so much bigger as a Voyager episode mid series.
I liked Enterprise even less than Voyager (although season 3& 4 were -better-, they weren't good enough). However, one thing they still did a heck of a lot better than Voyager was maintaining continuity, and not hitting the reset button every episode. Not DS9 good (and definitely not as good as some non ST shows), but still better.
I propose a balance to your idea and the original writers’ idea: Species 8472 can easily destroy the Borg, but can only exist outside of Fluidic Space for a short time. That’s the perfect setup and the writers squandered it. Voyager comes across this pocket where there is no Borg activity, finds 8472, and runs off, damaged and terrified of their next encounter. Meanwhile, they find Borg activity elsewhere, and realize that the only places where Borg are gone are places where there are rifts into Fluidic Space. Now Voyager has a choice: go through Borg space, an enemy they know, but will have trouble fending off, or go through a place with a Fluidic Rift, and risk encountering a threat that they have less knowledge about. They could introduce Seven and while she is still a Borg, she also shows fear of the pockets near Fluidic Space - the whole “humanity trapped inside but still fighting” but that we saw with Picard as Locutus. But now, Voyager has this “rock and a hard place” scenario, but also has a “Magnetic Plot Device:” Seven. The Borg want their drone back, and can track her and follow Voyager. Species 8472 want to destroy the Borg, and hey… there just so happens to be a Borg on that ship! Now they’re a target for two unbeatable enemies. How incredible would it have been to have a season of dodging two threats, finding refugees, and learning about both of the powers that are fighting around them? I think it would have saved Voyager from being what it ended up as: Berman’s “TNG was good, let’s do that again” pet project.
Solid take. It reminds me of some thoughts I had about the Other Franchise and how it squandered the possibilities of what something called a "clone war" could be.
There actually ALREADY exists an alternative plot for this episode: it’s “Places of Exile”, the second of three novellas in “Infinity’s Prism”.
Why would the Borg want to have Seven back? They usually don’t care for a single drone.
I’d lean more on them being able to track 7 but care more about voyager than 7 specifically.
@@cl8733 They collect drones that are damaged or destroyed for parts. But it could be argued they don’t want Borg operating alone for too long because they may regain their individuality, which if that “program” gets into Borg systems, has caused damage before (Hugh). Of course, it could be as simple as “there’s a Borg on the ship so we need to go finish the assimilation process.”
First let me say that I am with you Steve. I agree completely that the Borg and species 8472 were largely wasted in Voyager; little more than aliens of the week fodder.
That said, I do not recall the episode, but I do recall Janeway saying at one point that Voyager was built with the Borg in mind; that her armaments and defenses were designed to fight the Borg. So, it stands to reason that Voyager would have an "easier" time against the Borg than "older" ships like The Enterprise-D. Though it should not have been as easy as it was, for all too many reasons that were hand waved by the show runners/writers.
It's a small thing, but the designation "Seven of Nine" has always bothered me. "I, Borg" established that the Borg designation convention was ' of ', "Third of Five". Voyager uses ' of ' for the new crew member, resulting in "Seven of Nine" rather than "Seventh of Nine".
I'm happy about that.
Calling her Seventh would have been weird.
Despite its issues I still enjoy Voyager. It was all right, a lot more light hearted and humorous at times. It felt like a sitcom at points, like they were experimenting with making it more of a soap opera kind of show and melodramatic. Which is...odd when also trying to be a space epic which is also squandering its own premise. At times its actually a brilliant show at points and has some amazing episodes. Just a shame 50% are absolutely totally skippable on a rewatch.
There was a period about ten years ago where Netflix reported that it was "the most watched Trek." I think the article I saw referred to it as "mental comfort food." The stakes are low and you know how it's going to go.
@@jonathanscherer7482Sliders went through that. Also: Enterprise. Every season, someone else would pick a new direction for no reason.
@@Insightfill Sliders was great until they killed Aturo. He was the balance needed for Quinn. He was an intellectual counter balance and mentor to Quinn. What would have made more sense is playing up the romance between Wade and Quinn---having Quinn realize his feelings and returning Wade's unrequited love. It would change the tenor of their sliding maybe Quinn considers finding a world where he and Wade can settle down (but then what of getting home and letting his mom know they are okay). Maybe that inspires him to get the timer working right so he can control where he is going in the slide.
The Borg's single appearance n DS9 (the Wolf 359 scene) was more potent and chilling than anything Voyager ever did with them. Another tally in the DS9 column as far as I'm concerned.
They should've found Seven of Nine in a wreckage like Picard did with Hugh. They could've used Seven as their excuse to gradually develop better and better schemes and tactics against the Borg, culminating in the final season's arc being a decisive showdown between the Voyager and the Borg, which is exactly what happened in that season, but without the massive nerfs to the Borg's characterization it would've had more impact.
IMHO it would've been better if the Borg were kept as a constant presence, but never directly shown. Have Voyager encounter more planets and civilizations that suffered attacks from the Collective instead of facing the Collective itself, if they have to face the Borg, make sure they're dealing with only a fragment of their might and still pose a threat (like, I dunno, they find a wreckage of a ship, they're desperate for spares and resources so they're salvaging what they can, but suddenly they discover traces of Borg energy signatures in the wreckage and realize they've been beaming stuff from a ship that was attacked by the Borg, with the rest of the episode dealing with Borg nano probes infecting the ship).
The thing I admire the most about this review is that you said they "blew" the Borg out into space. Data would be proud. 🤩
Scorpion was such a missed opportunity (like most of Voyager). In truth, Voyager should have done some techo-babble thing to get away, unable to destroy those ships, and say "Well, they won't fall for that trick again." Then spend the next several episodes, maybe half or all of the season, going through Borg space. They see the devastation of this ongoing war between the Borg and extradimensional invaders. They see the devastation the Borg wrecked on the area before the invaders arrived and see the invaders are just as bad as the Borg. Maybe they stumble across survivors who escaped Borg assimilations of their planets, hiding in Borg space, and desperate to not be found. Maybe they find the original Borg home world, learn its a desiccated and abandoned husk of a planet. Voyager learns more about the creation of the Borg and how it all began.
So much potential wasted to create a real threat for Voyager, like what the Dominion and their Founders became for DS9.
"Not the first appearance of Borg characters" ... ha, no kidding, we all remember how filthy Voyager was with Borg ... hanging out in every bacground, pluggged into every alcove, interrupting every conversation ... practically wallpapered the whole damn ship!
The biggest problem I have with how Voyager does it is they show the Borg who in TNG can adapt to anything, can't invent anything without assimilating it. Sorta makes you wonder how they can adapt.
I did find the next episode the gift where seven comes to terms with not being part of the Borg anymore a better episode.
That description of the dangers of overusing a villain helped me pin down one of the reasons I liked Voyager better than most people seem to. To me, that point of no longer taking the Borg seriously had already occurred in TNG, so Voyager wasn't about tearing them down, but instead reestablishing them as a more narratively conventional antagonist. It never seemed odd to me that the Borg were a lesser threat on Voyager because the situation was different - the scariest thing about the Borg is their inevitability. That matters a lot if they're headed for Earth and there's nothing anyone can do to stop them, but Voyager is just a single ship. They can just leave, and quite frequently do so.
“Farting around with Leonardo da Vinci” made me laugh more than it should
I always call Voyager, "Star Trek: Seven of Nine with the Crew of Voyager" after this episode.
I remember being on the edge of my seat for Part 1, then feeling completely let down by Part 2 three months later. This was the episode that made me check out of regularly watching Voyager.
That’s interesting. I thought Voyager actually became more watchable from Season 4 on. I thought Jeri Ryan’s performance was excellent… she became a master at non-verbal expressions that “said” a great deal and I actually found her character arc the most interesting of the entire cast. I give the producers credit for separating her obvious physical attributes from her character. They could have easily turned her into a vamp, instead they made her someone to take seriously.
I greatly enjoyed the first two seasons of Star Trek Voyager despite their flaws (Micheal Piller’s influence was definitely felt.), but when the Borg stepped onto the show’s scene it nearly killed my interest in the show. It wasn’t just the overuse of the species themselves but the NON-STOP BORG REFERENCES! Holy smokes. The Borg and the holodeck were a creative crutch that the made the show the a chore to sit through in its last five seasons (with just a few gems peppered throughout).
It always irritated me how the show constantly used "Borg nanoprobes" as the go-to pseudoscience explanation for everything. For this show's writers, Borg nanotechnology was a magical plot device that had no limits on what it could do, and were the solution to every obstacle. It felt like extremely lazy, autopilot storytelling.
@@eugeneluk5050 Lazy, autopilot storytelling was Voyager's specialty I'm sorry to say.
Piller’s absence is really felt on the characterisation and plotting deficiencies after he leaves
Bit of a stretch to call Harry "Lifelong Ensign" Kim important...
I want someone to make a picture or video of Kim fully decked out in regalia with medals and awards where they don’t even fit on his uniform, and have everyone still come up and go “Good work, Ensign!”
Life-of-the-show-long Ensign, Harry Kim.
A thing that bugs me about the resolution with the episode(s) is that despite being “thrown past borg space” we still keep seeing them
As a biologist species 8472, withdrawing after their encounter with the new weapon makes sense. They've been the apex preditor in their habitat for so long that when someone actually fights back, they have to regroup and consider if this new source of energy is worth the risk. Also, theyve been at the top, or they were the only organism where they were, so they werent presured to evolve or adapt. If Voyager had kept them, i could see species 8472 actually adapt to once again become way more deadly. Think about it, theyre already concidered by the Borg to be the pinicle of evolution, given more enviromental stress whats to stop them from becoming even more dangerouse or develop tactics that can negate , or at least diminish Voyagers advantage. It sort of shows biological niches, and it might go with hominids.
All in all, my favorite Star Trek species, and I wish more was done with them.
I'm a bit conflicted by your review. You praise (for the most part) the story, the characters, the execution, the acting and the script. Yet you still say that the episodes are "just fine". Your reasoning? Because you don't like Voyager and aren't vested in the characters. Well, that's a flaw that one (or two) single episodes couldn't possibly fix. That's a fundamental issue that you have with the show as a whole, not "Scorpion" as an individual story.
One my first watch I remember having a different takeaway. That the episode had set up a kind of rock-paper-scissors scenario with voyager and these waring great powers. They could hold their own against the greatest threat to the Borg, but were still no match for the Borg themselves. Which would have been a much more interesting political standoff to exist in for a while longer.
Whenever Species 8472 comes up, it reminds me of the time my family took a holiday to the US in the late 90s. We're Scottish, so had only watched the show on Sky. The upcoming Voyager episode was In The Flesh, and I was really taken aback by how... Absolutely over the top horny the advertising for it was. It kinda made me not want to watch the episode as I felt kinda embarassed by it.
And I was a teenager at the time so....
The Borg should have been able to think of nanoprobes bring turned into antibodies.
This is what I get hung up on right off the bat. Why is this an idea unique only to the Federation?
The Borg don't create, they assimilate. It would not occur to them to repurpose technology they already possess. That is one of the concepts behind the fan theory that the Borg "farms" the galaxy's advanced civilizations, challenging them enough to spur more advanced technologies for the Borg to then assimilate.
I actually like the idea of Species #Whatever being so alien that it takes both the Borg and Federation combining their expertise to figure something out. Both factions are drawing upon the knowledge of hundreds of worlds in very different ways. As for why the Borg can't think of it themselves, I can see an argument that their infamous adaptation is a relatively brute-force affair of iteration and sacrifice to bend old methods to solve new problems rather than a creative or innovative process to develop whole new methods. It also could be that the Borg have neglected medicine as a science because it seems pointless to them, while the Federation has invested highly in it (due to both its ethical code and Starfleet's astonishing ability to get its crews infected with deeply bizarre alien pathogens).
@Michael Ramon , the Borg pride themselves on the ability to adapt. So I don't buy that it was something they never thought of. But I do like the medical angle. They didn't think of adapting in that direction. So thank you all, you have solved my problem.
Their nanoprobes already function in part to battle pathogens, too!
30 years later, Seven of Nine becomes, of all things..... Captain of the Starship Enterprise.
Steve, you should know as well as the rest of us that when it comes to technology, doing the same thing over and over again CAN yield a different result. Whether it's unplugging and plugging a cable back into every port until it starts working in the original port again, or reloading custom settings repeatedly until they stick, technology is surely driving us all insane.
thank you for making these videos
Seven was my earliteen crush, and as a result I can never be objective with opinions about her 🥰
Our protagonists encounter a new species and decide to develop a weapon capable of performing a species wide genocide and give it to their worst enemies in exchange for safe passage. Questionable ethics.
With the borg out of the way and a bigger threat to Voyager now in full invasion mode. Could I add to your alternative story arc that, they somehow discover travelling into this new, unknown threats relm, they could use it to cut decades off the journey. Inter-dimentional travel could mean entering the realm at one location and then exiting into a completely different part of space.
To do this they are completely exposed to this bigger threat and on their home ground. The odds are stacked against them in a big way! Leaving Janeway to play her master card
Operation "everyone get behind Harry!"
So you're going to do "Unity" eventually since you're doing every Voyager Borg episode?
I really liked that Borg episode of "Voyager" as, like "I, Borg" it explored the Collective & a possible origin of it why it might even have been formed with the best of intentions & the advantages of it without reducing the threat of the true Collective & as well as the ethical implications of it.
Voyager is my favorite Star Trek series, though I’ve never been able to pinpoint why, but although you are very critical of it, I enjoy hearing your point of view. You always express yourself thoughtfully and clearly, and I learn a lot and see things I would not have on my own.
Changing the frog to a fox works for me… it sets up the eventual double cross well because foxes are mythical trickster creatures… this was basically the last cool thing they let Chakotay do.
I would be curious having Equinox done, since it is one of the only episodes with shades of DS9 in it. Not that it goes anywhere after the episodes end.
Yes, thank you. I enjoy the perspective from someone who loves star trek but isn't a fan of voyager.
The Hansons are still the worst parents in Star Trek
@@patrickhaley1312 what about Worf?
It’s wild to watch this with the knowledge that they were planning on killing off Harry but then Garrett Wong made People’s 25 most beautiful people and the producers changed their minds.
This was probably my favorite episodes of Voyager. This episode and "Hope and Fear". I remember when Scorpion came out; 7 of 9 was on the cover of every magazine and TV guide. With good reason; she's gorgeous. Anyone read about her ex-husband? Crazy stuff.
Her ex-husband's misdeeds are the reason we got President Obama. He was forced to vacate his Senate seat, Obama won it in a special election, the rest is history.
The da Vinci scenes also contain what ~could~ be the strongest swear used in broadcast-on-TV-Trek, but it's in Italian so that's okay. Yeah?
Ciroc Lofton dropped an N-Bomb on DS9 (Far Beyond the Stars)
Che cazzo!
Talking Picard‘s merde one step further..!
I think people sometimes get this "you're just mad because it's the Borg and you're a big Borg simp" attitude. And while yes, that is true, there's more to it.
Imagine instead that it's Picard and the Enterprise D in TNG running in to a conflict between the Romulans and Klingons, and within the span of two episodes they've rendered the Romulans defenseless and the Klingons into hesitant allies.
The defenestration of the Borg was too complete. Star Trek has tried a few times now to reestablish the Borg as big bads, but we've already seen them cowed by a single science ship with no backup thousands of light years from home.
Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Voyager quite as much as Steve does, but I rewatch it the least because of situations like this.
The entirety of voyager should have been more like 'Year of hell' where the ship gets progressively wrecked. By time they get home the ship should have huge holes in it and look like it went though hell and back. You make such a great point about how they keep nerfing bad ass enemies. Like the Hirogon for example. They started out bad ass then ended on being total wimps. Maybe the writers were thinking that human ingenuity and scrappyness could solve any problem.
Apparently the writers did want to progressively 'wear' the ship, but apparently the studio model was WAY too expensive and valuable to start trashing and the CGI budget didn't stretch very far (Both DS9 and Voyager had major budget restrictions), and so they had to re-use external shots from Season 1, ie the ship being clean and pristine. It's such a missed opportunity and just that one change could've made such a positive difference.
So... potentially hot take. But. I think Star Trek has suffered when it introduces "ultimate" enemies. I don't think introducing either the Borg or Species 8472 as unbeatable ever served the narrative well. If I'm going to be honest, I really didn't appreciate the Borg as a threat until they were given decidedly Lovecraftian overtones in the Picard series, and the Borg as a already nearly defeated threat that still threatened to overwhelm the Federation felt compelling to me, more so than the Borg having plenty of cubes and a even a transwarp conduit straight to Earth and not ~doing~ anything but being a season or series finale threat.
The borg have assimilated species with cloning technology, so if they wanted to, they could recreate Locutus any time they wanted to talk to humans. I get why they didn't from a production standpoint, but it's just one more reason we should stop using the borg as a villain.
They did it in the first Armada game and it was narratively cool there.
Considering the fact that Voyager had interacted so much with the Borg throughout the series, thereby diminishing the unstoppable threat of the Borg, I think perhaps they could have written this episode as a way to put an end to the Borg.
That would leave it wide open for Species 8472 to come in and start slaughtering the entire Delta Quadrant, making their way toward the Federation and the rest of the Alpha Quadrant. Huge new threat. Whole new stories. It'd be interesting to see how Star Trek: Picard would change with the new enemy. No Artifact, no ex-Borg. New explanation for why Starfleet went rogue, being taken over by 8472...
Incredible story arc... yielded some of my favorite episodes.
Since you sort of tangentially mentioned it, I will now point out that Harry Kim was the simulated / temporary / intermittent red shirt victim on Voyager.
Janeway regularly urinated on the Prime Directive, in fact she did it so often that she made Kirk look like a damned conformist. The only real excuse defense I've heard about it is 'stranded in the Beta quadrant, yada yada ' -- probably as reasonable as any.
Though unrighteously and systematically criticized (I think it's basic mysogyny, but whatever), even by you in this very video, I always felt it was underrated. Easily my third favorite series of the lot, but they all pale to DS9...
Every previous villain introduction in Star Trek showed our heroes surviving either by the skin of their teeth or thanks to some kind of incredible luck. Not so with 8472, which was really frustrating. Think about how the Borg, the Dominion, and the Klingons and Romulans were introduced, and contrast them against 8472.
Scorpion introduced Seven of Nine to the series and for that I love it.
For everything else about it... I would rather never watch it again. XD
It's really nice that DS9 never had a Borg episode. Even though Sisko could have had some episodes revisiting his trauma from the pilot, there was plenty else to explore.
The turn that completed the de-nutting of the Borg ... and the hottest 7 of 9 ever looked. But that angle is fine, as she was developed from walking teen boy bedroom wall poster into fantastic, complex character. Unfortunately the arc of the Borg was going in the opposite direction, with all added detail serving to continue their dilution into mush. The more we know about the threat of the unknown, the less unknown, the less of a threat.
TNG did well to realise that the more The Borg appeared the less menacing they would be, and severely limit the number of episodes were they showed up.
You summed up perfectly how I feel about Voyager-it’s fine 🤷♂️ but also Janeway being morally opposed to asking for consent is a constant weakness of the show. Good lord.
Voyager seemed to suffer from the same corporate interference that later troubled Enterprise. I know we love to heap abuse on Berman and Braga but they were often given orders from the suits above to make changes that hurt the series. Imagine how different Voyager would have been if the Starfleet/Maquis conflict had been allowed to continue for a season or two before being resolved. Instead, it was (mostly) forgotten a few episodes into Season 1. Having Voyager suffer damage that isn't fully repaired by the following episode would have been more interesting. We saw the challenges faced by the crew of the Equinox who didn't get the benefit of the episode reset like Voyager. "Year of Hell" gave us a glimpse of what that would have looked like and how dramatic for storytelling it could have been. I think the frequent use of The Borg was (in part) thanks to the success of the TNG film "First Contact" which did really well at the box office. I'm sure the studio thought, the fans love The Borg, so let's give them more Borg... plus we've got the sets and costumes available and paid for already. There are so many ways Voyager could have been better but I still (mostly) enjoyed it.
Totally separate subject. In some of your other videos you've mentioned various film nerd movies like Ikiru, Rashomon, and others. Would you ever consider doing periodic videos reviewing Criterion Collection type movies? I'm a fan of those movies and would like to see that. I'd also love to see you do reviews of original Twilight Zone episodes. I think it's one of the best sci-fi shows ever made.
Okay so one change in this episode, they could have collaborated with species 8472, well in some form or fashion and still remove Seven from the Collective.
In retrospect the best story would have been for them to align themselves with Species 8472 and maybe have a uneasy alliance with them to get through Borg Space.
Then we really could have a series that developed well and even when Species 8472 did assume that humanity was the real treat, Janeway could have brokered a treaty to align themselves so they could survive the Hirogen & not do The Year of Hell.
But that's hindsight now
This was a great 2 parter only 2nd to Year of Hell. I love Voyager. But maybe you like it when tha alien comes back towards the end of the series and tries to kill Janeway by having her assimilated for not doing what you said, allowing the species to destroy the Borg.. But alas he was foiled by those meddling kids!
It would have worked if Star Trek has the Borg initially be moderately ineffective as villains, but each time they come back they are more dangerous....leading eventually to a Demolished Klingon Empire, a Destroyed Romulan Empire, Smashed Cardassians, and a Federation that is barely surviving....with their only hope seeming to be an alliance with the Always Treacherous Dominion.....and then.... [Surprising Story Climax!], followed by stories of the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians (et al) rebuilding their demolished societies and confronting new dangers.
I suspect budgeting played a role in keeping the Borg around in favor of Species 8472. Back then, CGI was still quite expensive to produce.
You should have been a Trek writer, Steve. Your idea of the surprisingly empty Borg territory would have been far far better than what Scorpion was, which, as you said, was fine.
7 of 9 is extremely important for 2 reasons!
I'm still amused every time I watch this episode, the meta of almost killing off Harry Kim.
That bit with the drone repeatedly trying and failing to assimilate the sample is genius. All at once it proves The Borg are single minded and relentless rather than just telling us, it demonstrates the horrifying mindlessness of a single drone, and it establishes the threat to the Borg juxtaposed against these defining features.
All that as a brief and perfectly in character and world building piece of humour. A great way to stop a Borg episode going too Grim-Dark for Voyager. I am glad you enjoyed it...
...bsurprised you didn't go for "Persistence Is Futile" but I guess you have probably used that before and didn't want to retread used jokes?
Its funny. I actually thought this is one of the better episodes in particular “Borg” epiodes of VOY. I will admit this is a somewhat through the lense of nostalgia as I remember watching this back in 1997 when it aired and First Contact had just come out some months earlier in late 1996. The Borg are my favorite ST villians especially the TNG and First Contact Borg. Maybe I looked at it through more rose colored glasses. However, I still ultimately enjoyed this episode and when I do go back to watch certain episodes of VOY from time to time, this one is definitely on the rewatch list. Plus 7 of 9 being introduced into the show actually was good for the show at the time. She was one of the better characters on VOY.
To be entirely fair, if Tom had developed the nanoprobe cure, and was the only person who knew about it, then killing him to prevent the Borg obtaining it by assimilation would be the only viable course of action.
Also, I really have to disagree with your conclusion. The only way Voyager defeats the Borg is because they were genre savvy and knew how to take advantage of the extremely specific and not-entirely replicable situation they found themselves in. Previously, the Federation never had any bargaining chip they could withhold from the Borg to prevent immediate destruction or assimilation. But because of Species 8472, and the Doctor, now Voyager does. And while that weapon gives them the ability to defeat 8472, it does not at all protect them from subsequent Borg encounters, and this bears out through the rest of the series. The situation is now rock-paper-scissors. 8472 beats Borg. Borg beats Voyager. Voyager beats 8472. Not at all "Voyager beats both 8472 and Borg", like you're making it out to be. And yes, I've seen the whole series, I know the future Borg episodes, and they're still pretty tense, at least IMO. Voyager is never depicted (save for Endgame) as actually being able to take on even a single cube in a direct fight, much less multiple.
Only Star Trek could dress Jeri Ryan in a skin tight Borg metal outfit. We never saw her feet, I bet they made her wear heels.
Props should really go to Jennifer Lien in this (and the next episode). She was often underused, but when given a good script that she could get her teeth into, she was great. But obviously, they had to get rid of her as they couldn't have another female.
I'm not even going there about how Janeway quite casually sold weapons of mass destruction to the nazi's. The needs of the few outweigh......oh.
I suppose it's not unreasonable that in the desire to protect her crew Janeway should have completed jettisoned the Starfleet ethical code.
Seven isn't meant to be a typical Borg drone. The Borg Buddy program you mentioned explicitly modified her in the same way as Locutus, comparing her behaviour to that of a typical drone is an unfair criticism.
I very much agree with your other issues with this episode though.
Steve- "... only bring two more of the most important officers on the ship with you..."
Me- "But, he brought Harry..."
Harry's a sort of ablative armor/missile countermeasure for the other characters, if he's present then any bad thing will happen to him. Even if he's killed, the show's aversion to continuity will resurrect him in some way before the next episode. :P
Surprised you didn't talk about all the parallels with BoBW. Examples (some of which are better than others of course) -
* First time seeing an all powerful new alien in action
* The captain ends up incapacitated for most or all of part 2
* Aliens physically transforming members of the crew (harry kim and picard, again)
* Out of left field examples of borg/human diplomacy that don't make sense given what we knew at the time (borg damands of and desire for a 'representative' and janeway negotiating with the aliens who don't negotiate)
* Our heroes hack the borg at some point (good time for a Nord VPN ad), with said hacking being achieved via the hydroponic tubing you mentioned
* Our heroes pretty inexplicably finding some fundamental weakness in said new superpowerful enemy which they more or less effortlessly exploit half an hour later
* Cliffhanger.
Kes' role is kind of similar to Guinan's when it comes to the Borg (mostly in Q Who, but some here too).
I would say the difference is that the Enterprise never really beats the Borg but gets lucky in a way that doesn't undermine the big bad at all for most viewers. And the good guys experience real loss (looking they've lost Picard, going through the wreckage at Wolf 359... and into the next episode 'Family') along the way.
Last thing, the final shot of BoBW shows how serious the writers were about the story they just told. I've watched Scorpion many times but honestly couldn't tell you what the tone is when they hit curtains.
When I first saw the Borg I thought they were seriously intimidating and reminded me of the Cenobites from Hellraiser, after a while though they became a bit boring.
A LOT!😂😂😂 I felt this, Steve!🖖🏾
Honestly, Crewman Lon Suder, the killer Betazoid, was a much more interesting character with a compelling arc in just three episodes than Seven of Nine was in her entire four whole season run.
To be fair, it's hard for Brad Dourif to NOT be compelling. The man is solid gold. His daughter is just as compelling in her roles too.
The relative ease with which Voyager discovers a silver bullet against Species 8472 makes it feel more like a rock-paper-scissors matchup IMO. Borg beats Federation, Species 8472 beats Borg, Federation beats Species 8472.
The lack of challenge for Voyager ion its own traversing the Delta Quadrant is one thing that Enterprise got right. When Enterprise takes damage, on numerous occasions the damage carries over to multiple episodes, and not just in the Xindi series. Things don't just magically repair next episode. Battlestar Galactica got this right too
I'm Italian, so when Leonardo Da Vinci blurts out "CHE CAZZO!" (which can be loosely translate into "what the fuck!" and it's actually in the episode named "concerning flight") well... I really feel at home! 😅
It's interesting to notice that while all the other italian-ish words and expression he uses, still sound like a foreigner is trying to speak Italian (albeit not badly, to be fair), the only time he cusses is the one time he is extremely believable as an italian! 🤣
okay, so they have probes that can travel at warp speed. I guess that means they could destroy any solar systems they wanted to (since a probe shot at a star would impact with relativistic mass of another star). It's probably a good thing C Janeway didn't notice...
He’s hearing well-thought-out commentaries like these that really makes me lament that voyager wasn’t handled by people who had more daring. It really could’ve been a GREAT show rather than honestly a TNG lite hand me down.
I was thinking the other day what if this had replaced 'Descent' in TNGs run...
I feel that to fairly critique the episode requires an analysis of the following episode, "The Gift", which is almost like a third part to the story.
Such a major missed opportunity this episode was. It was enjoyable for me (I actually liked this series alot back in the day) but nowhere near as much it seemed to be leading up to. The scene where it looked like an entired fleet of cubes where after Voyager only to actually be running in fear from something was almost scary. Whatever could put fear into the Borg was something for humanity and the Voyager crew specifically to be terrified of. Or should have been. This episode should have left us with the same goosebumps that we got at the end of the Borg's 1st appearance in TNG, when Picard relizes that they will be coming.
I think a good way for the two species to interact is to show them fighting and the Borg are taking losses, but then adapt their shield like is customary. Have it look like they’ll come out on top only for species 8472 to use stronger and different weapons making it worse and worse for the Borg until they flee or are decimated. Voyager seeing Borg ships decimated around them, has to escape before their insignificant ship is finally noticed by one of these two super powers.
It could start with a broadcast from the Borg saying resistance is futile, and Voyager thinks it’s directed at them only to realize it was meant for someone else and they’re just caught in the middle. Make the heroic plot about how Voyager has to co-opt damaged Borg tech to repair their ship or cloak their presence or something and “save the day” by getting away just in time.
Maybe eventually you can have the Borg learn to assimilate 8472 and make themselves even stronger than before. Have them drive 8472 back into their dimension and close the way in. This lets them have their cool new enemy for voyager but keep the Borg as the biggest bad in the galaxy by the end.
DaVinci should have helped/advised Janeway defeat the baddies in some way.
Just imagine Q’s reaction to the Enterprise D effortlessly destroying 12 Borg Cubes.
Q: you’re not ready for the challenges that await you out here. Return to thine own system.
Picard: Lt Yar, fire a spread of torpedoes.
Q: ok, we’ll get back to you.
I've decided that you must be watching the show wrong or something cause this is good stuff
Insted of 8472 being stronger than the Borg it would have been better to have them be the equal to the Borg and both specied be stuck in a quagmire fighting each other as both species are relentless. Voyager could get through Borg space with stealth and guile since diverting resources for one Fed ship won't be worth it as long as Voyager doesn't make itself a problem. It would also be a good reason why the Borh don't send 50 cubes to assimiltate the Federation. They can't afford to.
What you're describing is the same problem that Marvel created when they allowed Ant-Man to defeat Kang and come out of it unscathed.
I play a lot of STO so I am familiar with 8472, triple DNA jerk/friends
Ah, Scorpion, the point at which the series finally found its identity. Hereafter, it's The Doctor and Seven Show, hosted by the 4 pip lunatic who got everyone stranded out there in the first place.
I've always liked this episode(s) and my general fondness for Voyager has me disagreeing with a couple points. By the start of season 4, I was very attached to these characters and cared about them. But I do agree that the Borg's inherent scariness was getting diluted a little bit. I find it quite amusing that eventually Janeway ended up a bigger threat to the Borg than 8472 ever could have been. However, it's a bit annoying to see Voyager's crew have more trouble with the Kazon than the Borg. They stretched the Kazon thing out waaaay too long.
I also keep thinking it's too bad the concept for Voyager wasn't conceived until serialized TV was more common. The show ultimately could have had a darker, more dire existence in the Delta Quadrant with higher stakes (and shorter seasons...cuz 26 episodes a season guarantees some clunkers). Perhaps an experience more like that Equinox 2-parter minus the genocide of an alien race for fuel.
I could never quite put my finger on why part 2 felt unsatisfying. As a sort of alternative ending, having the collective fracture, something like in Unity, would provide for thrm to be scary or weak, some remnants could be negotiated with, others couldn't, some could even be victims. Maybe have a more powerful "classic collective" faction with 20% of what remained, and the others be variable, or even chaotic.
Janeway's plan to negotiate with the borg makes no sense to begin with. Species 8472 is chasing the borg off, and Voyager has a way to defeat Species 8472... Just go down that northwest passage!
Did you ever watch Sliders? You should do a video on that show. And also quantum leap.
"They've got kids" had me in stitches.
Given that _Scorpion_ usually has a highly positive reception, it's refreshing to hear a view that's more lukewarm.
Regarding the Leonardo da Vinci opener, I agree it goes on far too long, but I think it could be seen as a subtle way of reinforcing Janeway as someone who thinks outside the box (suggesting he base his design on the hawk instead of the sparrow) and is a skilled negotiator (in the simulation she's basically a nobody who convinces the greatest mind of the age to apprentice her).
Even as much as I like _Scorpion,_ I still feel that, given _Voyager's_ premise, it still could have been more. Imagine if it had been a multi-part arc, with the tension constantly ramping up. Rather than encountering the Borg right off the bat, they don't even see them to start with, but then they find clues as to what's happened; wreckage of Borg ships, sensor echoes, ships at the far edge of sensor range that suddenly disappear...all pointing to a more sinister and powerful threat.
Kind of like the Xindi arc on _Enterprise_ but condensed into 5 or 6 episodes.
They should have still won, but make it a bitter victory. Such as losing a few dozen of the crew, which would be touched on by many episodes that come after.
I just watched those episodes the other day. Good Trek.
I like Scorpion, but I also agree with everything you said about it. It strikes me as a solid 7/10 episode. I actually prefer your ending for the episode, and maybe that could have worked to at least preserve Species 8472. Seven of Nine is great, I wish she had stayed in borg make up for season 4, maybe slowly losing Borg bits as a symbol of her regaining her humanity, and then at some point, she gets a uniform instead of a catsuit as a deliberate choice on her part rather than it being forced on her by Janeway. That would require Voyager to want to do season-long arcs, which given they got told no to do the Year of Hell as a season-long arc means it would never have happened.
I have been saying that for a while. This episode should have been the end of the Borg. But alas, the Borg are now the Daleks of Star Trek. The iconic villains cursed to return again and again. Forever.
Yeah not sure why all the hate for Voyager Steve. It's my favourite ST by a long way. Scorpion is thoroughly enjoyable and for me the more Borg the better.
I remember watching Voyager when it was airing for the first time with the knowledge that the Delta Quadrant was the Borg's stomping ground. I'd been waiting for them to turn up. Scorpion (and the few teaser episodes beforehand) had a real feeling "Oh, here we go!" If Janeway and co had turned up in Borg space and the one thing we'd been waiting for had been wiped out - off camera, no less - by some unknown entity, I can imagine I would have been pretty pissed off! Not least because, while good for a couple of episodes, I'm not convinced 8472 would have made a really compelling Big Bad.
They've got kids? Who's got kids? What does he mean by....ohhhh shit.
I think a lot of people are a bit too obsessed with having the Borg be unstoppable badass villains. In certain episodes that should be the case as that's the function they then serve in the story, but Star Trek is not about beating villains but exploring concepts and stories. Voyager has some great episodes exploring the shared consciousness of the Collective, within in "Unimatrix Zero" but also in groups, in the episode where Seven meets the ex drones she trapped in a homemade collective, or when Chakotay meets the ex-Borg who have a collective mind outside the Borg. These are ideas to explore, like how TNG had Hugh to explore individuality, and then in "Descent" had these ex-Borg make the wrong choices in that individuality and choose to follow a cult leader in Lore because hierarchy is all they know. "Scorpion" is about making a deal with the devil, showing a different side of the Borg for the first time as temporary allies that will betray you any moment. I like that side of the story. They are still a mayor threat, and it shows them manipulating and looking for ways to use guile and smarts instead of explosions.
It's weird...Voyager is very flawed, rarely lived up to its massive potential, and relied way too much on the Borg, holodeck drama, and the reset button....but it's still my favorite ST series. 🤷♂ My head knows its not the best, but I still love it anyways, flaws and all. It's like Trek comfort food.
Hahahaha! Reference to Janeway and Paris’ amphibian spawn 😆
They Worfed the Borg!