Thank you for the video and for your level headed insights. Mason was indeed influenced by modern thinkers like Locke and especially Rousseau, who were both hostile to the Aristotelian and Scholastic tradition. Returning to Mason, Sayers, or the "Great Books" to address the problems of modern education is like expecting an acorn to grow into something other than an oak tree. Just as an oak tree naturally grows from an acorn, modern education and its problems have grown from the foundational principles of these modern thinkers, ideas that Mason herself adopts. The only true solution to the problem in education is to return to Scholastic Philosophy, as advocated by Pope Leo XIII.
Thank you for your presentation I do think what you say is correct, this coming from one who has enjoyed Charlotte Mason's works. Blessings on your ministry!
As someone who did his Masters work on doing a comparative survey on Charlotte Mason and Thomas Aquinas educational philosophy, I do agree with you William Michael that her work although it may be helpful and good in certain respects it isn't necessary for a classical Catholic education. Her anthropology and her starting principles for her edicational philosophy differ from the Catholic tradition and uses more platonic and idealistic notions than Aristotilean concepts. Some of her teachings are for sure helpful but the truth is we don't have infinite amounts of time to read everything, and if we had to chose what to read we should prioritize the reading of the texts of Holy and Catholic teachers and more importantly the works they produced in helping us understand Philosophy and Theology. Masons works on Scripture, putting the Gospels into poetic form and her Book Ourselves would be actual works which help us in growing as humans and in our relationship with God and not be just about educational Pedagogy which many of her works are about, starting from certain scientific starting points and some philosophical points. But all this pollutes the point that we should prioritize the Classical sources.
Charlotte Mason isn’t relevant to classical education perhaps but in my opinion she is relevant to a homeschooling family implementing Classical education. This is because she really understood young children and how to help them grow and begin to learn, something maybe which used to be natural but isn’t necessarily automatic any more. I find the classical education core really comes into play after the age of reason or maybe even 10 years old. Aesop isn’t an entire elementary curriculum. Before that, parents can find a lot of help in following her guidance. Even after that, her read-and-narrate methods are essentially the approach of the CLAA on many assessments. We haven’t recovered or aren’t able to reproduce a Jesuit school. Mason gives us a method of raising children to read well, and then a method of studying in a tutoring type environment.
Yet the CLAA provides a “petty school” curriculum for elementary that does not claim to be classical (with good reason) so it would behoove you to either think through your elementary methods/approaches or not offer any schooling for kids below the age of classical education.
Recall that the Ratio Studorium describes an entrance exam where boys are asked to compose short sentences in Latin, so clearly some education had already happened before classical schooling began. For anyone wanting to look to the Saints for guidance on early elementary education, I have found helpful the handbook of the schools started by St LaSalle called “Conduct of Christian Schools”. Like the Ratio Studorium, the methods are intended for large groups and can’t always be directly copied in a homeschool, but I found it instructive as far as expectations for study schedule, daily mass, prayers, preferring silence, etc.
I would actually love it if you did a briefing on specific issues within the Charlotte Mason approach. Maybe that's not of interest to you, but I am sure other mothers might be interested. It would be great to understand it better. Most of us mothers were never ever classically educated, and were sold these things when we were in earnest looking for something better than what we had in public school.
The appeal to people's "writings" rather than specific statements is a smokescreen. If one has read the book, why would I need to? State the principle if you know it. Very simple. My actual argument makes that unnecessary. She's irrelevant in the history of classical Catholic education. There's no need to deal with her writings when we can ignore them with no loss.
You’ve not actually addressed the value of Charlotte Mason, but spoken beside the point. Charlotte Mason model isn’t a set of books to teach but a method of how best to facilitate learning in children. Charlotte Mason wouldn’t have a problem using the Catholic canon you reference. In fact, she herself says the highest model of learning is scholasticism.
@@classicalliberalartsShe did not support Scholastic philosophy/education, so much so, that she took the “Triumph of St. Thomas” fresco, renamed it with her Theological Doctrine called, “The Great Recognition” (which is precisely what deceives many Christians into thinking it is a Classical (Christian) education) and what deceived(s) many Catholics, like myself, and Curriculum websites such as Mater Amabilis, into thinking that, just because CM used a picture with St. Thomas Aquinas as her “logo”, therefore she must be have been influenced by him, or worse, her philosophy must be compatible with the Catholic faith. There are a considerable number of Catholics who actively promote, or sit amongst CM organizations, in what seems to be an “ecumenical”-collaboration, all advocating further continuation of her philosophy. As a former Masonite, I must admit I have a bit of a “cognitive dissonance” every time I see that Fresco in your podcasts or on your website. Now I’m grateful to be learning so much from the CLAA apostolate, because I’m slowly learning to see that painting for what it truly means and slowly “untangling the philosophical knots” I was trained for years into believing. Isn’t it a Thomistic principle that two contraries *cannot* exist in the same place at the same time?
Protestantism is founded on the rejection of classical/Catholic philosophy. Martin Luther and Henry VIII were heretics and excommunicants. Their followers are not with St. THomas, the saints or any of the virtuous pre-Christian philosophers. If you're a Catholic following Protestants in education (!) you should know something is wrong.
Nice try, but (a) I'm speaking to Catholics and (b) St. John Henry Newman, Pope Leo XIII and Pope Pius X all called Catholics to Scholasticism in the 19th and 20th centuries. There's no reason why Catholics are following Protestant fads in education.
I think we are all aware that Mason was not a Catholic, so twenty minutes of repeating that doesn't really tell us anything new. You have recommended other non-Catholic resources in the past (books by the Flash Kids Editors to be exact) so your audience seems to want a simple breakdown of why you recomend one but not the other.
@@classicalliberalarts The "Complete Curriculum" series of books. You recommended it to supplement classical studies in order to meet state requirements. I believe you might know them as "Harcourt Family Learning". So, can you kindly explain why those books are recommended but something affiliated with a Charlotte Mason curriculum is not?
I’m Catholic and I know you banned your school material from my country- but we use Charlotte Mason as a METHOD for our chosen reading material….. and I agree with you about the liberal arts core curriculum
You're a Catholic and your TH-cam username is, literally, "CharlotteMason". You don't think it's strange for a Catholic to identify by the name of a Protestant?
@@classicalliberalartsnope not strange ! …. Just as strange finding an American who is also catholic. …. You should differentiate between what is to be taught , from how it is taught. The Charlotte mason method addresses the how mostly. Education from the highest source is the goal.
Thank you for the video and for your level headed insights. Mason was indeed influenced by modern thinkers like Locke and especially Rousseau, who were both hostile to the Aristotelian and Scholastic tradition. Returning to Mason, Sayers, or the "Great Books" to address the problems of modern education is like expecting an acorn to grow into something other than an oak tree. Just as an oak tree naturally grows from an acorn, modern education and its problems have grown from the foundational principles of these modern thinkers, ideas that Mason herself adopts. The only true solution to the problem in education is to return to Scholastic Philosophy, as advocated by Pope Leo XIII.
Specifically which ideas of Locke are apparent in a Charlotte Mason curriculum?
Thank you for your presentation I do think what you say is correct, this coming from one who has enjoyed Charlotte Mason's works. Blessings on your ministry!
As someone who did his Masters work on doing a comparative survey on Charlotte Mason and Thomas Aquinas educational philosophy, I do agree with you William Michael that her work although it may be helpful and good in certain respects it isn't necessary for a classical Catholic education. Her anthropology and her starting principles for her edicational philosophy differ from the Catholic tradition and uses more platonic and idealistic notions than Aristotilean concepts. Some of her teachings are for sure helpful but the truth is we don't have infinite amounts of time to read everything, and if we had to chose what to read we should prioritize the reading of the texts of Holy and Catholic teachers and more importantly the works they produced in helping us understand Philosophy and Theology. Masons works on Scripture, putting the Gospels into poetic form and her Book Ourselves would be actual works which help us in growing as humans and in our relationship with God and not be just about educational Pedagogy which many of her works are about, starting from certain scientific starting points and some philosophical points. But all this pollutes the point that we should prioritize the Classical sources.
Charlotte Mason isn’t relevant to classical education perhaps but in my opinion she is relevant to a homeschooling family implementing Classical education. This is because she really understood young children and how to help them grow and begin to learn, something maybe which used to be natural but isn’t necessarily automatic any more. I find the classical education core really comes into play after the age of reason or maybe even 10 years old. Aesop isn’t an entire elementary curriculum. Before that, parents can find a lot of help in following her guidance. Even after that, her read-and-narrate methods are essentially the approach of the CLAA on many assessments. We haven’t recovered or aren’t able to reproduce a Jesuit school. Mason gives us a method of raising children to read well, and then a method of studying in a tutoring type environment.
"Charlotte Mason isn’t relevant to classical education perhaps but in my opinion..."
Yet the CLAA provides a “petty school” curriculum for elementary that does not claim to be classical (with good reason) so it would behoove you to either think through your elementary methods/approaches or not offer any schooling for kids below the age of classical education.
Recall that the Ratio Studorium describes an entrance exam where boys are asked to compose short sentences in Latin, so clearly some education had already happened before classical schooling began. For anyone wanting to look to the Saints for guidance on early elementary education, I have found helpful the handbook of the schools started by St LaSalle called “Conduct of Christian Schools”. Like the Ratio Studorium, the methods are intended for large groups and can’t always be directly copied in a homeschool, but I found it instructive as far as expectations for study schedule, daily mass, prayers, preferring silence, etc.
I would actually love it if you did a briefing on specific issues within the Charlotte Mason approach. Maybe that's not of interest to you, but I am sure other mothers might be interested. It would be great to understand it better. Most of us mothers were never ever classically educated, and were sold these things when we were in earnest looking for something better than what we had in public school.
If you (or others) provide me with specific questions I will gladly do so. -WCM
The appeal to people's "writings" rather than specific statements is a smokescreen. If one has read the book, why would I need to? State the principle if you know it. Very simple.
My actual argument makes that unnecessary. She's irrelevant in the history of classical Catholic education. There's no need to deal with her writings when we can ignore them with no loss.
You’ve not actually addressed the value of Charlotte Mason, but spoken beside the point. Charlotte Mason model isn’t a set of books to teach but a method of how best to facilitate learning in children. Charlotte Mason wouldn’t have a problem using the Catholic canon you reference. In fact, she herself says the highest model of learning is scholasticism.
Charlotte Mason was a Protestant. She did not support Scholastic philosophy/education. Give us a break.
@@classicalliberalartsShe did not support Scholastic philosophy/education, so much so, that she took the “Triumph of St. Thomas” fresco, renamed it with her Theological Doctrine called, “The Great Recognition” (which is precisely what deceives many Christians into thinking it is a Classical (Christian) education) and what deceived(s) many Catholics, like myself, and Curriculum websites such as Mater Amabilis, into thinking that, just because CM used a picture with St. Thomas Aquinas as her “logo”, therefore she must be have been influenced by him, or worse, her philosophy must be compatible with the Catholic faith. There are a considerable number of Catholics who actively promote, or sit amongst CM organizations, in what seems to be an “ecumenical”-collaboration, all advocating further continuation of her philosophy. As a former Masonite, I must admit I have a bit of a “cognitive dissonance” every time I see that Fresco in your podcasts or on your website. Now I’m grateful to be learning so much from the CLAA apostolate, because I’m slowly learning to see that painting for what it truly means and slowly “untangling the philosophical knots” I was trained for years into believing. Isn’t it a Thomistic principle that two contraries *cannot* exist in the same place at the same time?
Protestantism is founded on the rejection of classical/Catholic philosophy. Martin Luther and Henry VIII were heretics and excommunicants. Their followers are not with St. THomas, the saints or any of the virtuous pre-Christian philosophers. If you're a Catholic following Protestants in education (!) you should know something is wrong.
I get it. Anyone who didn’t live at least five centuries ago is irrelevant.
Nice try, but (a) I'm speaking to Catholics and (b) St. John Henry Newman, Pope Leo XIII and Pope Pius X all called Catholics to Scholasticism in the 19th and 20th centuries. There's no reason why Catholics are following Protestant fads in education.
I love it when people in the classical education movement get upset that classical education isn't modern.
I think we are all aware that Mason was not a Catholic, so twenty minutes of repeating that doesn't really tell us anything new. You have recommended other non-Catholic resources in the past (books by the Flash Kids Editors to be exact) so your audience seems to want a simple breakdown of why you recomend one but not the other.
I have no idea what the "Flash Kids Editors" are.
@@classicalliberalarts The "Complete Curriculum" series of books. You recommended it to supplement classical studies in order to meet state requirements. I believe you might know them as "Harcourt Family Learning". So, can you kindly explain why those books are recommended but something affiliated with a Charlotte Mason curriculum is not?
I have no idea what you're talking about. I have never recommended any such books.
I’m Catholic and I know you banned your school material from my country- but we use Charlotte Mason as a METHOD for our chosen reading material….. and I agree with you about the liberal arts core curriculum
You're a Catholic and your TH-cam username is, literally, "CharlotteMason". You don't think it's strange for a Catholic to identify by the name of a Protestant?
@@classicalliberalartsnope not strange ! …. Just as strange finding an American who is also catholic. …. You should differentiate between what is to be taught , from how it is taught. The Charlotte mason method addresses the how mostly. Education from the highest source is the goal.
There are 70+ million Catholics in America. What are you even talking about?