Remember when the biggest criticism of the prequel fight scenes was that they were too dancelike? At least dancelike implies there's some precision involved. Rise of Skywalker's fight scene is just embarrassing.
They based the “dancing” off of actual martial arts and swordfighting, but whatever, enough people complained about it apparently so JJ felt it necessary to forgo choreography entirely.
yeah dudes like skall are so "oh im so inteligent cause i like real swordfights, not dancing" where the fok is your artistic perception then mate, there is a reason they are called martial ARTS, a big part of some martial arts are fluid and dance like movements, which require a lot of coordination, good balance, weight managment, flexibility etc, all of those are amazing qualities which not many nerd swordmasters seems to even know how to mix that with your sword play, or any hand to hand combat for that matter
@@bensul9979 i think you're too far gone there dude. We all agree the new trilogy choreography just sucks, but that doesn't really equate to "because people criticize the prequel therefore we get this". The prequel combat is indeed "performance" heavy, but anyone who had any weapon practice or martial arts would be able to tell that the move isn't realistic, and would remove the immersion. It's fair criticism, and if you enjoy the artistic side of it the same way you enjoy seeing people dance, then more power to you. You know well it's not meant to be that way in the lore though, it's supposed to be a fight to the death. Star wars fans like me and perhaps you are all bummed out with the new trilogy, but perhaps dont blame that to people who dont deserve to.
all the actors had proper training with the style of fights they tried to achieve, namely theatrical asian sword martial arts, I do not see any of that in the sequel films especially on Rey, which i want to remind you, supposedly trained with Leia for month prior to the events of the film
I had hoped Disney forgot they owned star wars so that we didn’t have to take brain bleach to ourselves… at least Shad makes it entertaining and informative and we can make fun of our pain… I propose a game. Any time there’s a crappy swing or block or bind we take all take a shot of our chosen beverage, be it innocent and sugary or caffeinated or alcoholic so that the only movies in the series we spend actually in our right minds is episode 4, 5 and 6… we’d be tipsy for 1-3 as the fights were… moderately good, at least story wise. Then the rest we’d be either hyper or drunk and wouldn’t care.
But its funny. P.S. Watching "Star wars" I have always wondered 1) where are the air defense means of some developed planets/bases (for example, Jedha planet in "Rogue one", which was under control of Empire, but rebels landed there like if it was their backyard), 2) where are the CCTV cameras in the secret objects, 3) why is the lightsaber fencing looks like the real metal sword fencing. As I understand, the lightsaber is some sort of a laser, so you dont need big hand amplitude/swing to kill/hurt someone, you just need to touch a person. I think a lightsaber fencing should look more like a rapier fencing sport in Olympics or something, where you get points by touching/stabing your opponent.
@@Alresu Still would looks better than aiming at nothing At least if the actors is directed to aim for the weapon, we would have lightsaber clash effect.
It doesn't just feel like odd choreography, there are more actual mistakes than usual. We know these actors can execute on the choreography better than this because we've seen them do it before - the problems with earlier fights were mostly from being poorly designed rather than poorly executed. This feels like they were not given the proper amount of training on this fight to execute it cleanly, which would be ridiculous since it's not like the Mouse needs to skimp on the budget.
I've never held a sword in my life, and I could immediately see how insultingly awful that fight was the first time I saw it. Slow movements, insanely telegraphed, aiming at nothing, pausing to let your opponent get up or turn their sword backwards...even with zero fighting experience it was painful to sit through.
Shad: "I've been looking forward to this." Rey: "My baseball swings have doubled since the last time we met Shad." Shad: "Good. Twice the swings, double the cringe." All memes aside, this fight scene is an abomination. You could argue that the reason Kylo doesn't take the like 50 opportunities he has to kill Rey is that he doesn't want to because he wants her to join him. However, that should not have stopped him for disarming or incapacitating her instead, like Vader did when he cut off Luke's hand in Empire. Rey is supposed to be super pissed off at Kylo, so her sloppy technique is at least slightly more forgivable in this scene, but you don't become a compete moron and forget how to fight just because you're angry and a bit unfocused. She was pissed at him for killing Han in The Force Awakens and still manages to kick his arse, despite never having used a lightsaber before in her life. Good god these movies are bad.
no we have seen that if youre angry or pissed is that u get even stronger in lightsaber force fights (anakin best example) more pissed or angry he is more dangerous he becomes
@@CaysariTapping into the dark side has been shown to make you stronger, but also more wild and aggressive. For example, when Vader threatens to turn Leia and Luke goes ape on him and slices off his arm. There's another good example in clone wars when Obi Wan first fights a revived Maul. Maul taunts him about killing Qui Gon whilst he watched helpless and Obi Wan loses his cool and becomes more aggressive, enabling Maul to break his defence. He even says afterwards "Your rage has unbalanced you. That is not the Jedi way." So I think it goes both ways. You can become stronger, but you'll be more vulnerable to counter attacks by your opponent.
I both appreciate Shad suffering through this fight, frame by frame, and hate him for reminding me just how bad it is. ;) I only watched this once! And, until now, I had never planned on watching it again.
I just realized them standing before the throne is just so accurate. Here they are, standing amongst the ruins of a great movie series, thinking they can somehow achieve the same greatness.
Another issue with this fight is that it's completely useless. Rey needs Kylo (or at least his ship) to get where she needs to go, and Kylo wants her to come with him to defeat Palpy. While theyre both coming at it from different moral perspectives, the end is the same: they both go together to face Palpy. Neither really wants to kill each other here, hence why also later Rey heals him even after winning. Pointless fight, literally no stakes too because we know they would never kill off either one so (relatively) early in the movie.
OT: Ben vs. Vader, two old friends facing off. Leads to the death of Ben. Luke Vs. Vader 1, Luke wants to kill Vader while Vader wants to test Luke. Leads to Luke's hand getting chopped off. Luke vs. Vader 2, Luke fights Vader in defense until his anger controls him. He cuts off Vader's hand revealing that he is similar to Luke.👍 PT: Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon vs. Maul. First encounter with a Sith in a long time. Leads to Qui Gon's death. Anakin, Obi-Wan vs. Dooku. Trying to stop him from escaping. Leads to Anakin's arm getting chopped off. Anakin, Obi-Wan vs. Dooku 2. Attempt to rescue the chancellor. Leads to Dooku's death. Obi-Wan vs. Grievous. Attempt to end the war. Leads to Grievous' death. Windu vs. Palpatine, Windu's attempt to stop the Sith. Indirectly leads to Windu's death. Anakin vs. Obi-Wan. Brother vs. Brother. Attempt to stop the Sith from rising. Leads to Anakin getting his limbs chopped off and burned.👍 ST: Rey, Finn, vs. Kylo....Kylo wants Luke's lightsaber? Finn gets "injured". Kylo gets a cut on his eye. Rey vs. Kylo. Rey is mad that Kylo smashed her toy. Kylo wants to kill her I think? I guess leads to Leia's death. Kylo becomes good for no reason.👎
The problem with the whole movie is that it's completely useless. JJ spent so much time trying to fix the issues Last Jedi made that he didn't take anytime to make an actual movie.
@@MravacKid I mean there was no fixing it unless they made it all a dream or hallucination by one of the characters. People would still be mad. Why Disney thought it was a good idea to bring a NEW director and writer for the MIDDLE movie of a trilogy is idiotic beyond belief and goes against any sort of common sense. You don't change creatives in the middle of a franchise. Not only that but Rian Johnson also didn't even have anything major under his belt. He was basically fresh out of film school. He did ONE half-decent movie in Looper. But even that wasn't good if you started asking questions.
28:41 They are actually using lightsaber props here but the physical blades are shorter than they're supposed to be. You can actually see in the behind the scenes documentary a moment where they purposefully miss the physical blades and that's why the lightsabers constantly pass through each other. Actually it doesn't even look like the lightsabers physically make contact at all in the BTS.
Yes! After the second vision, Rey screams "Nooo" and you hear two lightsaber clashes afterwards. Everytime I watch when the second clash happens, it's so noticable that there was no contact.
I would love to see an autopsy of Yoda vs Palpatine with how unorthodox and unique it is. Yoda's fighting style is so acrobatics based and I would love to hear a swordsman's opinion on that.
To be honest, I need to see a full autopsy of Dooku vs. Anakin and Obi-Wan (1 and 2), Dooku vs. Yoda, General Grievous vs. Obi-Wan, Palpatine vs. Mace Windu, Yoda vs. Palpatine, AND, most importantly, Darth Maul vs. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. That last one is probably the best.
@@ConvictedFelon2024I think people overhype the last one a little too much from the choreography perspective. Now don't get me wrong. That fight is amazing. I love it. It's just that it suffers from an obvious problem that arises from a real-life sword-fighting problem - fighting one against two is a bitch. It's a bitch even when you outclass your opponents by a large margin. And when it's by a fairly small margin, as is the case with Maul vs Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon - well, it's just really tough to portray the combatants giving their all and NOT betray that they're holding back so they don't actually hit the solo guy. As a consequence, that fight does occasionally suffer from the two jedi purposefully aiming for the weapon of Maul, rather than his body, or simply not taking the opportunity to attack when he's open/not looking their way. The choreography is still amazing and, to an untrained eye, may even seem realistic. Unlike, say, in the shitstain of a fight that this video autopsies, where it's obviously bad even if you've never touched a sword in your life. However, if Shad broke the Jinn, Kenobi and Maul fight down as thoroughly as he does in these videos, I think people would see that said fight has plenty of flaws in the choreography. I think if we're talking best Star Wars fights, it's really hard to beat Obi Wan vs Anakin in Episode 3. Aside from the awkward hand-to-hand section and the often-memed part where they just stand for a few seconds spinning their lightsabers around, and a few other mistakes noted in Shad's autopsy, that fight is more or less lightsaber choreography perfection. I don't think we'll ever see better. At least not from an official Star Wars source.
@@Veloziraptor111 I have hours and hours of experience of 2v1 sword fights in Elden Ring multiplayer. I was a sword only fighter. Let me break down what happens. If I just try to fight, 1 guy will engage me and the second guy will wait until I swing my sword. After I swing my sword, there is a brief period where I am defenseless, and the second guy will hit me. The best strategy was as follows. Run away from them LOL. Occasionally I would stop running and perform a quick stab and I would get a free hit. But even after the free hit, I ran LOL. Eventually, they get tired of chasing me and stop. I stop too. The reason this happens is that nobody wants to spend 1 hour just running. After a few minutes of nonstop running and chasing, they stop. At this point, I have to wait until they drop their guard. Or sometimes they simply give up and engage me 1 vs 1. Whichever one happens, I need to kill 1 of them as quickly as possible in a 1 vs 1. Then after that, I have a fair fight with the remaining guy in a 1 vs 1. I rarely lost 2 vs 1 situations. I won quite often because they would always give up and just fight me 1 vs 1. But the most usual result was that the enemies would quit because I would not engage them in a 2 vs 1. So moral of the story? You can't win a 2 vs 1 against competent opponents. You must run away and play mind games. KEY WORD IS COMPETENT OPPONENTS. AGAINST MENTALLY DISABLED AND INTELLECTUALLY CHALLENGED, EVEN 4 VS 1 VICTORIES ARE POSSIBLE.
In universe there's literally only two reasons I can think of as to why she would attack THAT far off the target. A: She's so mad she can't think straight and is literally forcing her brain to hallucinate or B: She's so damn drunk she can't see straight cuz she's hallucinating.
It's funny because when I see people fight with fake weapons in "matches" they tend to use an hyper eficient style where momentum is ignored because any "touch" is considered a wound that incapacitates or kill, when actual weapons would need a bit of momentum of cuting space to work... but here with lightsabers that could actually kill/wound with the barest touch they act like the weapons need 5 or 6 times the momentum of a material weapon to have a chance at harming the oponent. It's really distracting.
A real lightsaber duel will look more like fencing rather than a swordfight. There is no point in using a lightsaber 2h. It just restricts and slow down your movements/attacks
It does not slow down your movement if you have ever held a longsword before. With two hands manipulating a weapon instead of one the weapon is actually faster. There are just certain movements that you can't do with two hands and vice versa. Many lightsabers seem short enough to justify one handed over two-handed use though so it would depend on how they feel in the hand. Some are long enough for two-handed use within katana or longsword lengths. FYI fencing is just another term for sword fighting or fighting with hand weapons and polearms. You fence with a spear just as you fence with a smallsword or longsword. The term you are looking for is Olympic fencing or FIE.
@@Subutai_Khan oh yea those type of "fencing" is what im talking about. Almost too quick for the eyes. Imagine how deadly it wouldve been with lightsabers. And your point about longswords, i believe, is mainly due to the weight. Since lightsabers are practically weightless, it will be like holding a twig with 2 hands. If we ignore the use of 'the force' for balance, holding the saber on 1h and using the other hand for balance will be the best option imo. I also believe that 1h reach/thrust is longer than 2h. Which is an imp factor.
I remember Jackie Chan talking about fight scenes in movies. He said many of the problem in fight scenes came to the directors not wanting to repeat takes and move on with whatever they got, and that other directors and actors could do just as well as him, if they were willing to do the dozens of takes necessary for each shot.
The best example I can think of to illustrate this is the "action" scene Liam Neeson jumping over a fence in twenty different cuts to disguise the fact that they literally couldn't get him to do it, vs the Meals on Wheels fight with most of the scene being long takes of wide shots
I love Jackie Chan. If we get a Fight scene autopsy on the Legend of Drunken Master fight between him and Lau-Kar Leung under the train my life will be complete
@@chrisbarnes3660 He has so many great fights besides. I'd actually like to see his sword fight from Shanghai Knights appear get analyzed at some point, because Aidan Gillen really seemed like an overly confident expert as he was fighting there. Exactly as he was supposed to be, that confidence is what got him killed
have you seen the trailers for the MMO "The Old Republic"? they had some amazing lightsaber fights that mixed the powers in really well. Wish they had used them as a blueprint, could have turned this hum drum into something great
Honestly, DIsney don't even need to go that far to watch something they consider "non-canon" but at the very least reflect back on the Prequel. Sure, Daisy and Adam don't have much time compare to Ewan or Hayden to train is a baseline to do something.
@@redace4821 Which just goes to show how poor the decision making was. Even people who hate the prequels for the story and dialogue admit the fights were fun to watch. The prequels established that time spent on fight choreography is never wasted in Star Wars.
Despite all the hate the prequels got, there is no denying the combat is top tier and was a step up from the original trilogy. And then the sequels... took a step down to Hell.
I remember fans complaining that the prequels made combat too flashy and preferred the hack and slash of the originals. I guess they got what they thought they wanted back in the sequels
I don't know man.. There was lots of random flailing in the prequels notably when Obi Wan and Anakin did a dance-off in the middle of the fight which was so immersion breaking. I did however like some of the use of the force we saw in the Prequels (though the originals did have some cool stuff like Vader doing gestureless telekinesis) I'm cool with using the force to increase your speed and such but there is no reason to reverse grip, spin, and flail. I think the original trilogy did it best. It was not perfect by any means but it was based on Japanese and European swordsmanship despite the Hollywood elements. I will agree that the Sequels are worse than the original trilogy though. The sequels and prequels are just as bad but in different ways.
@@Subutai_Khan Well, that is one couple second part of by far the most well coreagraphed fight in the saga. And I STRONGLY disagree, the sequels are on a level of bad so far removed from the prequels it's insane. The prequels are heavily flawed, but they at least tell 1 cohesive story and bring interesting ideas to the table
Ray in general has a lot of qualities you'd see from a dark side user. But you wouldn't know if you only watched the sequels, because they never talk about the dark side except dark side=evil side.
The static "hold behind my back" block is worse, in my opinion, since: A: You can gust strike around it B: if you don't strike around it, just tap on the light saber and push it against Kylo's head. There is no flat side on the light sabes, so it is like holding an edge a centimeter from the back of the head.
It's not supposed to be a guard position, but a deflection which makes it so much dumber cause he did it 5 seconds before the attack actually happened.
Much worse. At least when Kylo moonwalked into a foe, his foe died. It was an idiot savant's victory but a victory nonetheless. The static back crouch block maneuver should have ended with someone getting killed yet the cringe prolonged.
It reminds me of a dumber, worse version of the Brynhildr stance that Leo Whitefang uses, but that made sense considering Leo is a showboater and also cannot block in that stance giving it a lot of risk
It's even worse since he set the guard long before the attack. If it had been a last second thing against a flanking attacker it would make more sense. Alas, he just set up a target for the dude to aim at.
I was expecting a downward strike and thought, corny because he wouldn't have leverage to keep the lightsaber from being forced into his back and skull, but it could almost sorta make sense if a couple Rens strike at the same time. But this is worse because the strike "deflected" wasn't going to hit anything, it was just the tip making contact when the strike should have hit Ben's stomach and probably hit the lightsaber from underneath if anything
My brother and I grew up fighting with sticks (then lightsabers). We did not really pull our hits, we got bruises quite often, so you can imagine how I feel about spins in practice (you get pretty good when the alternative is getting hit by a stick or polycarbonate blade), however I can give 3 uses to spins that I have legitimately seen or used successfully. 1 - If you need to backup quickly and you're not sure what's behind you. You can strike while spinning back to get a look at what's behind you relatively safely most of the time. It's safer than not looking behind you sometimes at least. 2 - When fighting multiple people who may not all be in front of you. I have successfully used spins to force people coming from my side or behind me to either hesitate or block as to not be hit by the strike. I also backed up while doing the spin. 3 - I did not do this last one, it was done to me and it almost knocked me out. I still don't know how exactly it worked and my brother never was able to get the movement down more than the one time (because it was hard to do, not because it didn't work). My brother, somewhat jokingly, decided to do a spin attack. I saw it as such and went for a stab. I got hit up the backside of the head with enough force to spin me around and knock me on my ass. I didn't get a clear view of what happened, although I know roughly what he did. He feinted like he was going to spin in one direction off of one foot, then used his other foot to change and spin the other way. As he spun, he switched hands and twirled the blade like a flourish to change it's direction, and at the same time brought his arm across his body in a big sweep while also spinning his body (both in the same direction), which at least as far as I could tell made the strike a whole lot faster than normal (since he was accelerating both his body and his arm relative to his body - I saw him change directions but the swing was fast enough I couldn't see it coming, I was in disbelief that I got hit). The spin made me miss and the strike he did had some serious power. It's worth noting that when he spun he moved towards me and to my right. He was almost able to replicate it one other time, but the coordination on it was so hard that he never quite got it again - the one time was a fluke. I've tried since and never been able to replicate it, and I would consider it a relatively risky move since we would have hit each other had I gone for a slash instead of a stab. I'm not a highly trained fighter though (especially not anymore), so I would imagine that it may be a perfectly viable move if you have the skill to pull it off, I was just never able to. I would love to see if anyone with more skill could figure out the mechanics of exactly how it worked.
Nothing teaches you how to actually fight more than the incentive of "if I don't do it right I'm gonna get the shit beat out of me" I've been hit so hard with sticks and lightsabers that it's left welts for weeks 😂 I learned a lot about hand to hand combat fights with weapons and fights where you have no weapons against a person with a weapon just by growing up with a brother and large backyard
Imo I could see the "Kylo moonwalk stab" hypothetically working in a niche situation where it would be more dangerous to turn his back on a certain enemy than to do that, whereas with the back block thing he might as well have kindly asked them to go for the lightsaber.
to be fucking honest, even if they hit the saber with a big meaty overhead strike they might get lucky and knock it downwards. with how close it is and how he's holding it it's got 0 leverage and more than likely would just go into his own back n skull
@@zynstein Yeah. Or in this particular case, the blade of that cleaver-sword would just get cut by his lightsaber, which would make it connect above and below the cut with his back, so he was basically blocking nothing. Unless it was made out of a lightsaber-resistant material, anyway.
I just looked up a behind the scenes of this fight, and I have an answer for why the lightsabers keep passing through each other. They are still using props, but the props are a good foot or so shorter then the lightsabers in the movie. So, yes, a lot of the impacts further up on the blade are connecting with absolutely nothing.
Okay, I could understand that if they were constantly stabbing or having more of a fencing-like fighting style. Clearly, that’s not what they were going for, and as such, the shorter blades are of no help.
Imagine how cool lightsaber fights could be if they had proper, practical swordfighting choreography, and combined it with the full utility of Jedi powers. This all feels like a giant missed opportunity.
Actually, if the full force (pun intended) of Jedi powers were used, there would be no need to use lightsabers at all. A powerful Jedi could just use Force Crush to collapse the soft brains of his opponents within their skulls and its game over in 1 sec.
@@angmohnize-to-atasify same argument as "why don't they just turn off the other persons lightsaber with the force ?" one of the first force abilities most Jedi and Sith learn is a "Force shield" that prevents other force users from doing stuff with the force, it's obviously an excuse but better than nothing.
@@youraverageteaenjoyer. I don't think it's an excuse. I mean, the way the games do it, you learn a specific "spell" to counter Force "spells" generally, is kind of an excuse for gameplay mechanics. But if both fighters had, say, telekinetics and blades, I suppose they would try to push at each other's telekinetic power at the same time as they were trying to strike each other with their blades. Then they would try to trip each other up, so either the opponent's telekinetic defense would slip and you could crush them, or their blade defense would slip and you could stab them. We saw it in ep. 3 with Yoda and Dooku first seeing if either could defeat the other with the Force (well, Dooku started and Yoda being the pacifist mostly defended) and as that didn't solve it, turned to lightsabers. When Force-users fight with sabers, they channel the Force into their bodies to enhance their saber-fighting abilities, so whenever they're raising their Force powers to directly attack the enemy through, say, lightning or push, they're lowering their blade defense. May be a good move if you have an opening for it, or if you fail you might create the opening that'll end you.
Honestly, Kylo just moonwalking through a battlefield, stabbing fools left, right and center, sounds like such a massive flex to me, that I have to respect it.
about describing this fight scene as a battle of the baseball bats. now i have something to say about this as a baseball player myself. there is literally no better way to describe it
I'm not a baseball player, but from my limited knowledge about that game I can say, without a doubt, that it's not the right way to describe it. You baseball players don't miss every single hit you deliver.
I don't think baseball players over extend this much if they miss, I think if the actors were throwing themselves around as hard as they're trying to portray they'd injur their backs.
I was there, Gandalf. I was there 3000 years ago when Mauler requested you to do this in his unbridled rage video. "A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one" - Bilbo Bigideas Baggins, 2022
I know this video is about swordfighting, etc, however from a lore point of view there is an even bigger issue (and b/c of such things Mouse Wars are not really Star Wars): who is Sith here? The person who is almost completely calm and giving every opportunity to the opponent without any dirty tricks or somebody who is burning with hatred and fury?
Something that everyone missed (and I truly mean everyone) is that the film tries to make a point about neither of them being a jedi or a sith and trying to imply that both share a grey space between the two things. In theory, that's why Rey isn't as righteous as she should and why Kylo isn't as evil as he wants. As you may notice, it doesn't work at all and almost anyone simply ends up thinking that Rey is a bad Jedi and Kylo a bad sith, because that's what the film ends up showing us.
@@garethvila5108 agree, and I'd go one step further and point out that you don't even need to be a Sith or Jedi to be a force user or use a lightsaber. A lot of people forget that the Jedi was a religious order that you had to join and follow the doctrine. The Sith was smaller scale, with fewer rules, and really more like a cult. And I totally understand why people expect force users to be one of those two options, because we barely been shown anyone using the force without them being a member of one or the other. Which is something we really need to see more of.
Darth Maul wasn't exactly burning with hatred and fury, he doesn't do anything I would call a dirty trick and he remains fairly calm throughout the fight. In fact, after gutting Qui-Gon, he almost acts like it meant nothing to him and it's Obi-Wan that's burning with fury.
Way to much thought being put into this. The reason Rey is suddenly angry in the movie is a reaction to everyone complaining she was "to perfect and a Mary Sue" in the last two movies. Disney overcorrected to repair the Last Jedi damage, so suddenly Rey has trouble with training and loses control in fights. Even though she has no trouble at all in the last two movies. (she still swims and sails great for someone who has never seen water though)
Shad I gotta ask, PLEASE do a "fight scene autopsy" of Ahsoka Tano's and Darth Maul's fight in Clone Wars season 7 episode: The Phantom Apprentice. They mo-capped the entire fight and I'm pretty sure they are aiming for the opponent instead of the blades.
@@onyx_gabriel I think they asked the actors to slow down so the camera could properly catch their movements for animation. But later they sped it up to a normal sleed for an animated show
When the movie came out, my first thought watching the fight scene on the Death Star was, “my G-d this is awful!” Followed immediately by, “@Shadiversity is going to have a field day with this!” So I’ve been waiting for this video and it did not disappoint.
Me too. Honestly this is way worse than the throne room fight. At least that had some fancy camera work that at least hid the messy choreography upon first viewing. This is just slow, clunky, and it feels like both characters are holding back when neither has a reason too. The spins and the overswings were overtly egregious here and they weren’t channeled immediately into offense or defense like in the prequels. The only fight that’s worse is the one against the Knights of Ren later in the movie when they just swing at Kylo’s sword and not his body and he does a terrible flip that got Anakin’s limbs cut off in ROTS
This fight is the equivalent of two untrained baseball players getting angry with each other and trying to duel with their bats while the one that’s supposedly in the right makes angry faces
This is what happens when you don't have a fight choreographer handy, but you have a room stuffed with street dance choreographers... They made do with what they had at the time!!!! Lol. Tha's why it looks like a bunch of cosplay stormtroopers playing Dance Stage MegaMix with a pretty lady and her little emo brother.
@@DailyCorvid its really a shame when you have the biggest franches with the biggest studio at the time and can't afford a fight choreographer. What was it like Producer: You know JJ if we cut even half the lens flair budget we could afford a decent choreographer JJ: No *never. cut. the lens flair!*
I actually forgot there was even a fight scene in this Disney Bantha foodoo or whatever it's called. When you found out Luke was just a projected physical hologram and Princess Leah could Marry Poppins through space... and that casino racing animals are more important than a plot, I gave up hope. Even Poe and Flynn, I didn't care for, but they got no love like Chewie's lack of hug.
It is interesting that they do not re-film the scenes where actors miss choreography. Everyone can make mistakes and for some reason instead of correcting those mistakes they put it in the final cut.
Side note about the spinny fight Skallagrim looked at, there was actually a really clever bit of strategy which is relevant. The guy with the twin hook swords first attempted a frankly suicidal move to see how his opponent reacted. His opponent retreated, rather than take advantage of the massive opening presented. From then on, he knew, this guy is unconfident, he's afraid, so wild aggression is the way to go, and he probably took several risks he wouldn't have otherwise taken. Ayrton Senna did something rather similar in racing, trying a highly aggressive move early on in the race that he knew was only going to work if the other guy gifted him the position, and based on how he reacted, he would either push every single miniscule opportunity, if the guy folded, or hang back and play it safe, waiting for a guaranteed opening to present itself
Usually when I look at fights for the first time, I like them. Even in this fight though, I noticed the first time when they used the Force to stop one another's lightsaber it just felt like a stupid flex. The lore reason why the Force isn't used during fights is because to use the Force already takes a good amount of concentration. It can also leave you open, even as shown here, they're ridiculously open. I can't do it this year but probably next year or the year after, I'm going to try and make a better throne room fight scene.
I do appreciate that you took a second to clarify that you're not trying to come after the actors. They got way too much crap for something that was really just a job. Good on you. Also, it messed me up to find out that they had the same choreographer for this trilogy as they did for the prequels.
But also keep in mind the only reason you even heard about this supposed "harassment" was because it was a fabricated outrage created by Disney to shift publics attention away from their own failures. Hear me out: The timing was just too big of a coincidence for it to be true. it was mighty convenient for them. Just think about it. Before it happened the whole internet was buzzing about the failure of Disney star wars, everyone was sharing pictures of empty theaters at the premiere of Rogue One. Every article was about fans being so sick of Disney trilogy that now they refusing to see the next movie as a protest. It was really hurting their ticket sells. And SUDDENLY the next day every Disney owned "journalist" started talking about actors from the previous movies getting "harassed" by "toxic SW fans". Funny thing is, there was not a single article about it until Rogue One was getting a bad publicity. They didn't had a single screenshot of proof either (which is weird, usually they do). Suddenly the narrative was flipped and not liking Disney SW meant you are "toxic, racist, sexist", every buzzword they could come up with. Why were they harassed NOW? You wanna tell me some angry fans only started harassing them YEARS after the original premiere? That's not how internet outrage works. It does not grow over time, internet has a short attention span. The best part is - even the"harassed" actress later admitted that she removed her accounts not because of harassment, but because it was part of her contract. She never liked social media but she had to create it to promote the movies. She removed it when the deal ended. And here me out - it's the internet. I didn't say they didn't receive some mean comments, ok? Everyone gets mean comments and even death threats made by some dumb 12 year olds. You don't even have to be a celebrity to experience that. We all been there. We just ignore it cause we know those are dumb and immature kids. The only difference you are expecting it for free. Now imagine you are getting payed MILLIONS OF DOLLARS to say some lines in a movie. Would you refuse that job simply just because of some mean tweets? Ofc you wouldn't... I can bet literally every single person on earth would agree to take that deal even for a fraction of that price. Every single person would LOVE to be "harassed by internet comments" in exchange for millions of dollars. Imagine getting 10k every time someone insults you online. So long story short - you could "fabricate" "harassment" stories about literally every single celebrity that even existed. Cause literally every one of them is experiencing that ar some level (and it sucks, but that's part of the job, and everyone would still love having that job). But Disney could focus your attention to any actress and you would have the same angry reaction. It was all about manipulating the masses, about shifting your attention away, shifting the blame. You heard that story not because Disney cared, they wanted to sell more tickets. So Disney had to present themselves as "victims of abuse", it's the oldest trick in the book, they do it all the time and it's disgusting. The fact that every single of those articles was made by Disney employees should be enough of a proof, everything can be traced back to them. It was an coordinated attack It happens all the time when it comes to politics, but it happens with movies and huge corporations as well
16:00 ...Now hang on. Is it possible that ALL of the actual lightsabers were just added in post, and the actors were just swinging blindly at each other with the handles? That'd also go some way towards explaining the strikes that would have missed w/o needing to dodge, overswings, weird bind moments, etc.
They used props. Ones that even lit up, to help give a glow on the surroundings. But not full length ones. Still, that's no excuse for the bad choreography... if anything, it makes it even harder to excuse.
@@khandimahn9687 Right? Fully-CG lightsabers could at least have had the excuse of trying to edit around choreography. I remember some behind-the-scenes stuff with the prequels had them using full-sized props. Made the scenes a whole lot better because their lightsabers didn't just pass through each other when you looked closely.
I don't really mind Rey, in her rage, overly telegraphing her attacks And I don't really mind Kylo, in trying to get Rey to join him, not taking advantage of the countless opportunities Rey gives him to end her But the fact that so many of the strikes weren't even aimed at the opponent is unforgivable. Blindfolded people trying to hit piñatas land closer to the target than many of these swings
"Shit! I hate it when I get my shwarts twisted!" I was thinking of going with "Your shwarts is as big as mine." But the twisted line conveys so much more to the situation.
Jill Bearup did a great analysis of the cliffside fight! She doesn't break it down frame-by-frame (or even move-by-move, because as she points out, there are way too many moves to do that), but I still highly recommend it!
Always questioned how a girl that had not seen a lightsaber until a few days before held her own against a master in force awakens. Now i understand, kylo is just also terrible.
The actors in the prequals spent so much time perfecting the choreography. It's so night and day when you look at the sequels. You'd think with all the money they threw at the movie they could've gotten a decent fight choreographer and trainers. And if the actors don't want to put in the work then you get different actors.
It's as though there was either no choreographer or the actors simply decided whatever they did on the day would be good enough. OR Abrams just thought 'It's Star Wars! The sheep will eat whatever shit we give them and think it's amazing!'
I really have to appreciate actors who can actually perform their own stunts and have solid choreography teams to back them up. Too bad neither Daisy Ridley nor Adam Driver have that luxury. I definitely like the Prequel fights more, especially because we had great casting choices for fights like Ray Park (who is a stuntman himself), Sir Christopher Lee (who actually had fencing experience), and Hayden Christiansen (for spending so much time with Nick Gillard to nail the RotS fight; watch the BTS video and you’ll see his practice sessions).
Just when you thought you'd seen the limit of their failure, you dig deeper and find that it just goes on, and on.. Kylo: "I need your help to defeat the emperor." Rey: "Why? I'm terrible at using this thing." Kylo: "I know, I'm hoping it'll make the emperor double over in laughter, then that's when I'll strike."
I'd love for either Shad, Skall, or (maybe best of all) Matt(ScolaGladiatoria) to do an analysis of sword fights from the entire Pirates of The Caribbean movie series.
39:32 This is actually one of the few things that are kinda logical and consistent with the pre-established lightsaber rules within Star Wars. When the two blades (or more accurately, the force fields containing the plasma that makes up the "blades") come into contact, they sort of jam into each other, preventing any sliding action, or at least making it present much more resistance than two normal metal blades would have sliding along one another. Not sure whether this is completely justified, but it does make at least a decent modicum of sense given the rules. A shame that there were so many times that these rules were broken anyway, whenever a lightsaber passed through another lightsaber ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Same as the very first attack actually, it makes perfect sense imo. The baseball bat-like telegraphed overswing on Rey´s part makes perfect sense considering how immensely pissed she just got prior to it. Even if she had some form and technique, I could believe she forgot all about it for a moment there. A shame she clearly doesn´t, anyway ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 41:29 This one the other hand, while really cool at face value, goes against the pre-established rules. Trained Force users have an innate Force field around them, which makes manipulating their bodies using the Force much harder, hence why there are even lightsaber fights instead of one person instantly crushing the other´s throat from 20 meters away.
I think the lightsabers are implied to "fuse" momentarily when they touch, so the blades can't slide into each other while they're in the bind. Maybe the parts where it looks like they slide is actually the lightsabers doing a tiny bounce off each other first. That's a real hand-wavey explanation, though.
What people DON’T know is this was actually planned to be a perfect recreation of Rei and Kylo’s first stick fight as children imagining they were knights. The quality is actually astounding. Dead on, context killed by editing though😔
20:24 aiming for the enemy sword is a classic beginners mistake. Newbies get tunnel vision on the "dangerous" weapon and forget what they are actually supposed to do.
As a longtime member of the Fandom Menace movement , It has become clear over the years to us , that NO ONE on RISE had a single CLUE as to what the hell they were doing or trying to accomplish. It was a complete cluster from start to finish
My only defence of the rise of skywalker, and i did my best to think up a good defence of the rise of skywalker so i could have a full, proper, and sound critique of it, is that Rian Johnson left JJ in such a shit position for the rise of skywalker that it was fundamentally impossible for JJ to make a good film out of it. Main villans killed off and turned into a love intrest, first order a laughing stock, possibility of resistance being effective nonexistent, dozens of loose ends from both the first and second movie's, everything was fucked. And he still didn't do anything even close to as good as he could have done with the film. Which is almost an achievement.
original trilogy: fights are for the emotional effect prequel trilogy: fights are like fighting dances sequel trilogy: fights are just swinging and aiming for the air
The static block behind the back from Kylo was worse than the moon-walking attack. Granted, they’re both confusing, so if Kylo were looking to capitalize on confusing the opponent, it’s best to do so as an attack and not a static guard (where you’re not able to see your weapon or the opponent’s).
This was fun. I suggest analysing the Doctor who fight scene from the Christmas Invasion (vs Sycorax). It's a short fight scene but considering doctor who isn't really a show where sword fighting is common and considering their budget is so much less than star wars it might be fun to analyse.
Wow, I have way too much hype for this video. In the theater when I first watched the movie I felt like something was wrong with the fight, but never could put my finger on it. Later I found Mauler’s video who said you’d make one on the fight and here we are about 3 years later.
You really do get a higher appreciation for Qui-Gon Jinn meditating the fight with Darth Maul after seeing a "Jedi" being a screeching rage-fueled berserker.
That fight scene really convinced me that Rey should have been the “sith”. Kylo was always calm and collected during fights, and Rey is the embodiment of rage.
After watching this I honestly wouldn’t be surprised to learn that there was no fight choreographer and they just gave the actors bare hilts and had them go out and improvise.
Seeing how they had two directors and each one changed the other one's plots I'm inclined to believe that they also had a couple of choreographers contradicting each other.
Adam Driver seems like he would be awesomely choreographed if done right, he could could probably easily do it, but these fight scene producers don't care about quality, they don't care about the coolness of fights, they throw logic out the window because reasons I guess.
@@ancapgrandscribe9546 It seemed that he knew the choreography and was doing his part, Daisy just hadn’t practiced and went for all the wrong body parts so it looked ridiculous.
@@justthinkingoutloud2538 That's for sure, but he made flops as well, but that's more or less the choreographers fault. I believe Driver has much better potential in a scene like this then what they forced him to do.
I hope we get to see live action lightsaber fights like there is in the old republic game trailers, force powers, hand to hand combat and awesome lightsaber duels all combined
I would love that, although I feel like we should first just ask for decent fight scenes from Disney before asking them to recreate some of the best fight scenes in Star Wars media (seriously though why are the fight scenes so good when the game isn’t really that massive)
I love that you had a friend helping you out and he seemed to be having as much fun as you were acting out more realistic scenarios even when you were constantly bapping him with the saber. This is awesome to watch.
Would love to see an autopsy of the Old Republic cinematic fights, especially the bind from the latest one. They are probably not that practical but they look badass!
Funnily enough the word sin in Greek means "to miss the mark" i.e. in archery. However, given how many times Ray and Kylo both miss the marks in swordsmanship, we can say that this fight is a sin against sword choreography.
Hopefully you do Obi-Wan “Hello There” Kenobi versus General “General Kenobi” Grievous. I’ve always hated that lightsaber duel because Grievous with his four arms should never have lost. They swing sabers at each other and Kenobi’s meets all 4 of Grievous’s, instead of Grievous pinning Kenobi’s one blade and then using another to cut Kenobi in half or something. Kenobi should have been on the defensive the entire time, trying to stay away from Grievous’s reach and using his surroundings to figure out how to take him on.
Kenobi was on the defensive the entire time, only taking the opportunity to cut a hand off when grievous made a mistake, Kenobi was literally the best defensive duelist in probably the entirety of star wars, that's why mace says that Kenobi is the only one who could defeat grievous, and also you have to remember that jedi have extremely enhanced reflexes and can almost predict how their opponent will move next in a way, so as soon as grievous does try to trick Kenobi he would sense it, pull back, and block the incoming strike, we do see him dodging and keeping his saber very close to his chest as to not overextend and leave himself vulnerable, he also keeps his distance the entire fight, close enough to quickly strike at one of grievous' hands, but far enough away so that grievous cant exploit his numerical advantage by just reaching around and stabbing him. Although I do admit there are some parts where you do have to suspend your disbelief a bit
the fight was short and kenobi was on the defensive all the time and used slight stabs to disarm him and the force to push him away, I would have liked a longer fight but the creators transformed Griveous into a coward (so that he wasnt an op lol). I dont know man, I enjoyed the fight even though it could have been better, and the build up gave us the greatest meme in movie history lol. Fond memories of seeing it.
26:57 I think there's one very easily missed thing there that you didn't see. For a very brief moment when the camera is showing him being knocked back by the force push, you can see the lightsabers clash in the background. So I think it's presumably implied that they were already fighting again before the camera goes back to them.
Yeah the push only takes a couple seconds and while he's sliding the scene we see where he strikes at her is already taking place. I just assume when they make cuts like this in movies that when they cut back its like going back and forth in time.
So, any chance you could cover the original Scene 38 from ANH? I feel like that's one that people really view with rose-tinted glasses. It would be interesting to see how badly the original "spinning mirror rod" props held back the actors due to their lack of durability.
The arm flailing is so much worse with lightsabers too because you get maximum damage even with next to no force, you don't need a big swing, the tiniest poke is going all the way through Edit: 44:30 Yeah that's what I'm saying
I'd like to see an analysis of the FIRST light saber duel in the Star Wars franchise, Obi Wan vs Darth Vader in Episode IV. It's the least flashy but it looks fairly text book as far as a sword fight goes.
@@soulsuckingginger7535 Yeah, I've spent years defending that fight, but that spin is just really bad. But you know... It's 1977, Alec Guinnes is pretty old, the original lightsaber props were heavy, they had a power cord (they actually lit up on set), it's no surprise that he couldn't do it better, they just wanted some sparkle in there. It's not good, but A+ for trying
I literally just thought to check out your channel after like a couple months of not visiting to watch a fight scene autopsy and you made one yesterday, I couldn't have better timing
So glad you're back to do these. I would love to see your take on the Clone Wars light saber fights like Ahsoka vs Maul or Anakin vs Bariss or Ventress and Obi Wan vs Savage and Maul.
I'll once again recommend you take a look at the final fight scene from sword of the stranger, visually beautiful, but there are a few not-so great moments
Since this series is back, I’d love to see you review Maul vs Ashoka, or even Duku vs the night sisters. They are some of the best fights is the clone wars, imo.
Ok Shad you totally nailed it. The first thing you teach is not to aim for their sword like a child. You aim to hit them.I glossed over this because I considered it a romantic scene not a fight. Daisy doesn't look like she wants to kill him. Nor does he look like he wants to even injure her.
I was hoping you'd cover this fight, I hated this part when I was in the theater, when I told my parents about how I found the baseball bat swings were super distracting and they told me "actual sword fighting isn't engaging" 😑
They really could have done a lot with the Kylo v Rey scenes. Have her be super duper force powerful. Have her be AWFUL with sword fighting. But have Kylo be a master who just picks apart her technique with ease, and the only way she survives is by cheating and using the force to give herself all the terrain advantages.
Also a reminder to anyone curious about the Rey doing yet another fight against multiple Sith troopers or whatever they are, PSA Sitch made a great video pointing out how much of a disaster it is on an editing level.
I love these. Even though I usually watch them a little bit at a time because of the length, they're well worth it. I would suggest doing a fight scene autopsy of the climactic duel in "Rob Roy" (1995). Many professional movie critics with no training in sword combat praised it for its believability, so it would be great to hear the opinion of someone who knows what he's talking about. I'd also enjoy hearing your opinion of the movie if you've seen it. The knife fight in "The Hunted" (1995) got similar praise, so that would be an interesting autopsy too.
Remember when the biggest criticism of the prequel fight scenes was that they were too dancelike? At least dancelike implies there's some precision involved. Rise of Skywalker's fight scene is just embarrassing.
They based the “dancing” off of actual martial arts and swordfighting, but whatever, enough people complained about it apparently so JJ felt it necessary to forgo choreography entirely.
That’s the dumbest criticism I heard. The OT fight scenes were garbage too
yeah dudes like skall are so "oh im so inteligent cause i like real swordfights, not dancing" where the fok is your artistic perception then mate, there is a reason they are called martial ARTS, a big part of some martial arts are fluid and dance like movements, which require a lot of coordination, good balance, weight managment, flexibility etc, all of those are amazing qualities which not many nerd swordmasters seems to even know how to mix that with your sword play, or any hand to hand combat for that matter
@@bensul9979 i think you're too far gone there dude. We all agree the new trilogy choreography just sucks, but that doesn't really equate to "because people criticize the prequel therefore we get this".
The prequel combat is indeed "performance" heavy, but anyone who had any weapon practice or martial arts would be able to tell that the move isn't realistic, and would remove the immersion. It's fair criticism, and if you enjoy the artistic side of it the same way you enjoy seeing people dance, then more power to you. You know well it's not meant to be that way in the lore though, it's supposed to be a fight to the death.
Star wars fans like me and perhaps you are all bummed out with the new trilogy, but perhaps dont blame that to people who dont deserve to.
all the actors had proper training with the style of fights they tried to achieve, namely theatrical asian sword martial arts, I do not see any of that in the sequel films especially on Rey, which i want to remind you, supposedly trained with Leia for month prior to the events of the film
I had half hoped you'd forgotten about this series so I wouldn't have to relive the fights from RoS. Alas, here we are, and now I must watch.
I had hoped Disney forgot they owned star wars so that we didn’t have to take brain bleach to ourselves… at least Shad makes it entertaining and informative and we can make fun of our pain…
I propose a game. Any time there’s a crappy swing or block or bind we take all take a shot of our chosen beverage, be it innocent and sugary or caffeinated or alcoholic so that the only movies in the series we spend actually in our right minds is episode 4, 5 and 6… we’d be tipsy for 1-3 as the fights were… moderately good, at least story wise. Then the rest we’d be either hyper or drunk and wouldn’t care.
There's this German word called
SHADenfreude
But its funny. P.S. Watching "Star wars" I have always wondered 1) where are the air defense means of some developed planets/bases (for example, Jedha planet in "Rogue one", which was under control of Empire, but rebels landed there like if it was their backyard), 2) where are the CCTV cameras in the secret objects, 3) why is the lightsaber fencing looks like the real metal sword fencing. As I understand, the lightsaber is some sort of a laser, so you dont need big hand amplitude/swing to kill/hurt someone, you just need to touch a person. I think a lightsaber fencing should look more like a rapier fencing sport in Olympics or something, where you get points by touching/stabing your opponent.
I Have No Want And I Must Watch
May the 4th be with you.✨
Aiming for the enemies weapon is one thing.
But aiming for absolutely nothing is another level.
Don't you see? They're just fighting off the bees together. The Sith bees!
@@Alresu Still would looks better than aiming at nothing
At least if the actors is directed to aim for the weapon, we would have lightsaber clash effect.
Its the force bro😎
It doesn't just feel like odd choreography, there are more actual mistakes than usual. We know these actors can execute on the choreography better than this because we've seen them do it before - the problems with earlier fights were mostly from being poorly designed rather than poorly executed. This feels like they were not given the proper amount of training on this fight to execute it cleanly, which would be ridiculous since it's not like the Mouse needs to skimp on the budget.
@@UnreasonableOpinions when was that?
I've never held a sword in my life, and I could immediately see how insultingly awful that fight was the first time I saw it. Slow movements, insanely telegraphed, aiming at nothing, pausing to let your opponent get up or turn their sword backwards...even with zero fighting experience it was painful to sit through.
Shad: "I've been looking forward to this."
Rey: "My baseball swings have doubled since the last time we met Shad."
Shad: "Good. Twice the swings, double the cringe."
All memes aside, this fight scene is an abomination. You could argue that the reason Kylo doesn't take the like 50 opportunities he has to kill Rey is that he doesn't want to because he wants her to join him. However, that should not have stopped him for disarming or incapacitating her instead, like Vader did when he cut off Luke's hand in Empire. Rey is supposed to be super pissed off at Kylo, so her sloppy technique is at least slightly more forgivable in this scene, but you don't become a compete moron and forget how to fight just because you're angry and a bit unfocused. She was pissed at him for killing Han in The Force Awakens and still manages to kick his arse, despite never having used a lightsaber before in her life. Good god these movies are bad.
no we have seen that if youre angry or pissed is that u get even stronger in lightsaber force fights
(anakin best example)
more pissed or angry he is more dangerous he becomes
@@CaysariTapping into the dark side has been shown to make you stronger, but also more wild and aggressive. For example, when Vader threatens to turn Leia and Luke goes ape on him and slices off his arm. There's another good example in clone wars when Obi Wan first fights a revived Maul. Maul taunts him about killing Qui Gon whilst he watched helpless and Obi Wan loses his cool and becomes more aggressive, enabling Maul to break his defence. He even says afterwards "Your rage has unbalanced you. That is not the Jedi way." So I think it goes both ways. You can become stronger, but you'll be more vulnerable to counter attacks by your opponent.
@@JaimieSch true only shows that rey isnt even doing that
i hate disney so much
@@Caysari Don't we all. The sequels really are the gift that keeps on giving. The more you know about Star Wars, the more stupidity you discover.
Rage doesn’t usually make you attack nonexistent people
I have so much respect for you. You didn't have to shorten your life-span with this, but yet you did
I will not like this because it has 420 likes but know that it is intended
I both appreciate Shad suffering through this fight, frame by frame, and hate him for reminding me just how bad it is. ;)
I only watched this once! And, until now, I had never planned on watching it again.
Y’all messed it up how could you do us like that
@@based1195 Aged like milk
I just realized them standing before the throne is just so accurate. Here they are, standing amongst the ruins of a great movie series, thinking they can somehow achieve the same greatness.
And Disney is so blind they can't see the irony.
@@shinigamimiroku3723 In the word of Darth Sidious: "Ironic"
Another issue with this fight is that it's completely useless. Rey needs Kylo (or at least his ship) to get where she needs to go, and Kylo wants her to come with him to defeat Palpy. While theyre both coming at it from different moral perspectives, the end is the same: they both go together to face Palpy. Neither really wants to kill each other here, hence why also later Rey heals him even after winning. Pointless fight, literally no stakes too because we know they would never kill off either one so (relatively) early in the movie.
OT: Ben vs. Vader, two old friends facing off. Leads to the death of Ben. Luke Vs. Vader 1, Luke wants to kill Vader while Vader wants to test Luke. Leads to Luke's hand getting chopped off. Luke vs. Vader 2, Luke fights Vader in defense until his anger controls him. He cuts off Vader's hand revealing that he is similar to Luke.👍
PT: Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon vs. Maul. First encounter with a Sith in a long time. Leads to Qui Gon's death. Anakin, Obi-Wan vs. Dooku. Trying to stop him from escaping. Leads to Anakin's arm getting chopped off. Anakin, Obi-Wan vs. Dooku 2. Attempt to rescue the chancellor. Leads to Dooku's death. Obi-Wan vs. Grievous. Attempt to end the war. Leads to Grievous' death. Windu vs. Palpatine, Windu's attempt to stop the Sith. Indirectly leads to Windu's death. Anakin vs. Obi-Wan. Brother vs. Brother. Attempt to stop the Sith from rising. Leads to Anakin getting his limbs chopped off and burned.👍
ST: Rey, Finn, vs. Kylo....Kylo wants Luke's lightsaber? Finn gets "injured". Kylo gets a cut on his eye. Rey vs. Kylo. Rey is mad that Kylo smashed her toy. Kylo wants to kill her I think? I guess leads to Leia's death. Kylo becomes good for no reason.👎
The problem with the whole movie is that it's completely useless. JJ spent so much time trying to fix the issues Last Jedi made that he didn't take anytime to make an actual movie.
@@nathank2289 Except that nothing he did solved any of the issues from TLJ, but instead just made even worse of a mess.
@@MravacKid Disney Star Wars in a nutshell
@@MravacKid I mean there was no fixing it unless they made it all a dream or hallucination by one of the characters. People would still be mad. Why Disney thought it was a good idea to bring a NEW director and writer for the MIDDLE movie of a trilogy is idiotic beyond belief and goes against any sort of common sense. You don't change creatives in the middle of a franchise. Not only that but Rian Johnson also didn't even have anything major under his belt. He was basically fresh out of film school. He did ONE half-decent movie in Looper. But even that wasn't good if you started asking questions.
28:41 They are actually using lightsaber props here but the physical blades are shorter than they're supposed to be. You can actually see in the behind the scenes documentary a moment where they purposefully miss the physical blades and that's why the lightsabers constantly pass through each other. Actually it doesn't even look like the lightsabers physically make contact at all in the BTS.
(ಠ_ಠ)
They're* supposed to be not "their".
But thanks for the info
@@notsogreatsword1607 Thanks for the correction.
Yes! After the second vision, Rey screams "Nooo" and you hear two lightsaber clashes afterwards. Everytime I watch when the second clash happens, it's so noticable that there was no contact.
I would love to see an autopsy of Yoda vs Palpatine with how unorthodox and unique it is. Yoda's fighting style is so acrobatics based and I would love to hear a swordsman's opinion on that.
To be honest, I need to see a full autopsy of Dooku vs. Anakin and Obi-Wan (1 and 2), Dooku vs. Yoda, General Grievous vs. Obi-Wan, Palpatine vs. Mace Windu, Yoda vs. Palpatine, AND, most importantly, Darth Maul vs. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. That last one is probably the best.
@@ConvictedFelon2024 I might do those videos for ya
@@ConvictedFelon2024 and Ashoka Vs Maul in the final season.
@@ConvictedFelon2024I think people overhype the last one a little too much from the choreography perspective. Now don't get me wrong. That fight is amazing. I love it. It's just that it suffers from an obvious problem that arises from a real-life sword-fighting problem - fighting one against two is a bitch. It's a bitch even when you outclass your opponents by a large margin. And when it's by a fairly small margin, as is the case with Maul vs Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon - well, it's just really tough to portray the combatants giving their all and NOT betray that they're holding back so they don't actually hit the solo guy. As a consequence, that fight does occasionally suffer from the two jedi purposefully aiming for the weapon of Maul, rather than his body, or simply not taking the opportunity to attack when he's open/not looking their way. The choreography is still amazing and, to an untrained eye, may even seem realistic. Unlike, say, in the shitstain of a fight that this video autopsies, where it's obviously bad even if you've never touched a sword in your life. However, if Shad broke the Jinn, Kenobi and Maul fight down as thoroughly as he does in these videos, I think people would see that said fight has plenty of flaws in the choreography. I think if we're talking best Star Wars fights, it's really hard to beat Obi Wan vs Anakin in Episode 3. Aside from the awkward hand-to-hand section and the often-memed part where they just stand for a few seconds spinning their lightsabers around, and a few other mistakes noted in Shad's autopsy, that fight is more or less lightsaber choreography perfection. I don't think we'll ever see better. At least not from an official Star Wars source.
@@Veloziraptor111 I have hours and hours of experience of 2v1 sword fights in Elden Ring multiplayer. I was a sword only fighter. Let me break down what happens.
If I just try to fight, 1 guy will engage me and the second guy will wait until I swing my sword. After I swing my sword, there is a brief period where I am defenseless, and the second guy will hit me.
The best strategy was as follows. Run away from them LOL. Occasionally I would stop running and perform a quick stab and I would get a free hit. But even after the free hit, I ran LOL.
Eventually, they get tired of chasing me and stop. I stop too. The reason this happens is that nobody wants to spend 1 hour just running. After a few minutes of nonstop running and chasing, they stop.
At this point, I have to wait until they drop their guard. Or sometimes they simply give up and engage me 1 vs 1. Whichever one happens, I need to kill 1 of them as quickly as possible in a 1 vs 1. Then after that, I have a fair fight with the remaining guy in a 1 vs 1.
I rarely lost 2 vs 1 situations. I won quite often because they would always give up and just fight me 1 vs 1. But the most usual result was that the enemies would quit because I would not engage them in a 2 vs 1.
So moral of the story? You can't win a 2 vs 1 against competent opponents. You must run away and play mind games.
KEY WORD IS COMPETENT OPPONENTS. AGAINST MENTALLY DISABLED AND INTELLECTUALLY CHALLENGED, EVEN 4 VS 1 VICTORIES ARE POSSIBLE.
I love the genuine anger and exasperation in Shad's voice at 11:41, it really sells just how bad the combat scenes in these movies were
In universe there's literally only two reasons I can think of as to why she would attack THAT far off the target.
A: She's so mad she can't think straight and is literally forcing her brain to hallucinate
or B: She's so damn drunk she can't see straight cuz she's hallucinating.
@@willaverynerdyclarinetist6131 or the viewer had to get so drunk to watch the movie that the viewer is hallucinating?
I think you mean FUCKING WOMBAT scenes
It's funny because when I see people fight with fake weapons in "matches" they tend to use an hyper eficient style where momentum is ignored because any "touch" is considered a wound that incapacitates or kill, when actual weapons would need a bit of momentum of cuting space to work... but here with lightsabers that could actually kill/wound with the barest touch they act like the weapons need 5 or 6 times the momentum of a material weapon to have a chance at harming the oponent.
It's really distracting.
That is an excellent point
Yeah, I'd like to see a lightsaber fight done by Olympic epee experts. Would need to be in slow motion to follow they're so fast.
A real lightsaber duel will look more like fencing rather than a swordfight.
There is no point in using a lightsaber 2h. It just restricts and slow down your movements/attacks
It does not slow down your movement if you have ever held a longsword before. With two hands manipulating a weapon instead of one the weapon is actually faster. There are just certain movements that you can't do with two hands and vice versa. Many lightsabers seem short enough to justify one handed over two-handed use though so it would depend on how they feel in the hand. Some are long enough for two-handed use within katana or longsword lengths.
FYI fencing is just another term for sword fighting or fighting with hand weapons and polearms. You fence with a spear just as you fence with a smallsword or longsword. The term you are looking for is Olympic fencing or FIE.
@@Subutai_Khan oh yea those type of "fencing" is what im talking about. Almost too quick for the eyes. Imagine how deadly it wouldve been with lightsabers.
And your point about longswords, i believe, is mainly due to the weight. Since lightsabers are practically weightless, it will be like holding a twig with 2 hands. If we ignore the use of 'the force' for balance, holding the saber on 1h and using the other hand for balance will be the best option imo.
I also believe that 1h reach/thrust is longer than 2h. Which is an imp factor.
I remember Jackie Chan talking about fight scenes in movies. He said many of the problem in fight scenes came to the directors not wanting to repeat takes and move on with whatever they got, and that other directors and actors could do just as well as him, if they were willing to do the dozens of takes necessary for each shot.
In rumble in the bronx JC spent eight hours on a jump through ladder rungs which took a grand total of half a second of screen time. I love that man.
The best example I can think of to illustrate this is the "action" scene Liam Neeson jumping over a fence in twenty different cuts to disguise the fact that they literally couldn't get him to do it, vs the Meals on Wheels fight with most of the scene being long takes of wide shots
I love Jackie Chan. If we get a Fight scene autopsy on the Legend of Drunken Master fight between him and Lau-Kar Leung under the train my life will be complete
@@chrisbarnes3660 He has so many great fights besides. I'd actually like to see his sword fight from Shanghai Knights appear get analyzed at some point, because Aidan Gillen really seemed like an overly confident expert as he was fighting there. Exactly as he was supposed to be, that confidence is what got him killed
have you seen the trailers for the MMO "The Old Republic"? they had some amazing lightsaber fights that mixed the powers in really well. Wish they had used them as a blueprint, could have turned this hum drum into something great
Honestly, DIsney don't even need to go that far to watch something they consider "non-canon" but at the very least reflect back on the Prequel.
Sure, Daisy and Adam don't have much time compare to Ewan or Hayden to train is a baseline to do something.
@@redace4821 Which just goes to show how poor the decision making was. Even people who hate the prequels for the story and dialogue admit the fights were fun to watch. The prequels established that time spent on fight choreography is never wasted in Star Wars.
I mean you got your wish just had to wait till today.
Every of the new movies made from Disney I don't consider cannon because they are just bad.
@@firestorm5371 was rogue 1 there too? I thought that was okay.
Ray and Kilo every other second "I'll try spinning, that's a good trick."
Despite all the hate the prequels got, there is no denying the combat is top tier and was a step up from the original trilogy. And then the sequels... took a step down to Hell.
Right into the boiler room
I remember fans complaining that the prequels made combat too flashy and preferred the hack and slash of the originals. I guess they got what they thought they wanted back in the sequels
I don't know man.. There was lots of random flailing in the prequels notably when Obi Wan and Anakin did a dance-off in the middle of the fight which was so immersion breaking. I did however like some of the use of the force we saw in the Prequels (though the originals did have some cool stuff like Vader doing gestureless telekinesis) I'm cool with using the force to increase your speed and such but there is no reason to reverse grip, spin, and flail.
I think the original trilogy did it best. It was not perfect by any means but it was based on Japanese and European swordsmanship despite the Hollywood elements. I will agree that the Sequels are worse than the original trilogy though. The sequels and prequels are just as bad but in different ways.
Aside from grievous who they fucked up completely
@@Subutai_Khan Well, that is one couple second part of by far the most well coreagraphed fight in the saga.
And I STRONGLY disagree, the sequels are on a level of bad so far removed from the prequels it's insane. The prequels are heavily flawed, but they at least tell 1 cohesive story and bring interesting ideas to the table
It's funny to me because Kylo seem's like the calm Jedi not trying to kill her, and Rey like a Sith full of anger and hatred
Ray in general has a lot of qualities you'd see from a dark side user. But you wouldn't know if you only watched the sequels, because they never talk about the dark side except dark side=evil side.
I think that’s what they were going for in this fight tbh. However the rest of the movie is completely wrack
@@e-tan3911 isnt that just because the dark side is about giving in to emotions, and she's a woman
She's a palpatine and he's a solo... Solos shoot first and seduce sith lords' daughters later....
@@e-tan3911 and more importantly, facing dark feelings is character progression and rey is scared of character progression.
The static "hold behind my back" block is worse, in my opinion, since:
A: You can gust strike around it
B: if you don't strike around it, just tap on the light saber and push it against Kylo's head. There is no flat side on the light sabes, so it is like holding an edge a centimeter from the back of the head.
It's not supposed to be a guard position, but a deflection which makes it so much dumber cause he did it 5 seconds before the attack actually happened.
Much worse. At least when Kylo moonwalked into a foe, his foe died. It was an idiot savant's victory but a victory nonetheless. The static back crouch block maneuver should have ended with someone getting killed yet the cringe prolonged.
It reminds me of a dumber, worse version of the Brynhildr stance that Leo Whitefang uses, but that made sense considering Leo is a showboater and also cannot block in that stance giving it a lot of risk
It's even worse since he set the guard long before the attack.
If it had been a last second thing against a flanking attacker it would make more sense.
Alas, he just set up a target for the dude to aim at.
I was expecting a downward strike and thought, corny because he wouldn't have leverage to keep the lightsaber from being forced into his back and skull, but it could almost sorta make sense if a couple Rens strike at the same time. But this is worse because the strike "deflected" wasn't going to hit anything, it was just the tip making contact when the strike should have hit Ben's stomach and probably hit the lightsaber from underneath if anything
My brother and I grew up fighting with sticks (then lightsabers). We did not really pull our hits, we got bruises quite often, so you can imagine how I feel about spins in practice (you get pretty good when the alternative is getting hit by a stick or polycarbonate blade), however I can give 3 uses to spins that I have legitimately seen or used successfully.
1 - If you need to backup quickly and you're not sure what's behind you. You can strike while spinning back to get a look at what's behind you relatively safely most of the time. It's safer than not looking behind you sometimes at least.
2 - When fighting multiple people who may not all be in front of you. I have successfully used spins to force people coming from my side or behind me to either hesitate or block as to not be hit by the strike. I also backed up while doing the spin.
3 - I did not do this last one, it was done to me and it almost knocked me out. I still don't know how exactly it worked and my brother never was able to get the movement down more than the one time (because it was hard to do, not because it didn't work). My brother, somewhat jokingly, decided to do a spin attack. I saw it as such and went for a stab. I got hit up the backside of the head with enough force to spin me around and knock me on my ass. I didn't get a clear view of what happened, although I know roughly what he did. He feinted like he was going to spin in one direction off of one foot, then used his other foot to change and spin the other way. As he spun, he switched hands and twirled the blade like a flourish to change it's direction, and at the same time brought his arm across his body in a big sweep while also spinning his body (both in the same direction), which at least as far as I could tell made the strike a whole lot faster than normal (since he was accelerating both his body and his arm relative to his body - I saw him change directions but the swing was fast enough I couldn't see it coming, I was in disbelief that I got hit). The spin made me miss and the strike he did had some serious power. It's worth noting that when he spun he moved towards me and to my right. He was almost able to replicate it one other time, but the coordination on it was so hard that he never quite got it again - the one time was a fluke. I've tried since and never been able to replicate it, and I would consider it a relatively risky move since we would have hit each other had I gone for a slash instead of a stab. I'm not a highly trained fighter though (especially not anymore), so I would imagine that it may be a perfectly viable move if you have the skill to pull it off, I was just never able to. I would love to see if anyone with more skill could figure out the mechanics of exactly how it worked.
This was so cool to read ngl
Nothing teaches you how to actually fight more than the incentive of "if I don't do it right I'm gonna get the shit beat out of me" I've been hit so hard with sticks and lightsabers that it's left welts for weeks 😂
I learned a lot about hand to hand combat fights with weapons and fights where you have no weapons against a person with a weapon just by growing up with a brother and large backyard
@@killerbug05 Part of my school sword fighting club and it hurts, it really does.
That spin with a feint is an arming sword technique, although martial arts know its analog for a kick attack.
Imo I could see the "Kylo moonwalk stab" hypothetically working in a niche situation where it would be more dangerous to turn his back on a certain enemy than to do that, whereas with the back block thing he might as well have kindly asked them to go for the lightsaber.
to be fucking honest, even if they hit the saber with a big meaty overhead strike they might get lucky and knock it downwards. with how close it is and how he's holding it it's got 0 leverage and more than likely would just go into his own back n skull
@@zynstein Yeah. Or in this particular case, the blade of that cleaver-sword would just get cut by his lightsaber, which would make it connect above and below the cut with his back, so he was basically blocking nothing. Unless it was made out of a lightsaber-resistant material, anyway.
Also hes moving and not just sitting in an akward position
Don't ever stop this series shad I'll wait another 2 years I swear
I just looked up a behind the scenes of this fight, and I have an answer for why the lightsabers keep passing through each other.
They are still using props, but the props are a good foot or so shorter then the lightsabers in the movie.
So, yes, a lot of the impacts further up on the blade are connecting with absolutely nothing.
They might as well just be using dead hilts in that case.
That does not help the case for this duel
@@romancapulus5577 He never said it did.
So the actors would just have to pretend that their blades connected and hope it looked believable? That sounds absolutely insufferable.
Okay, I could understand that if they were constantly stabbing or having more of a fencing-like fighting style. Clearly, that’s not what they were going for, and as such, the shorter blades are of no help.
Imagine how cool lightsaber fights could be if they had proper, practical swordfighting choreography, and combined it with the full utility of Jedi powers. This all feels like a giant missed opportunity.
i think the maul v ashoka fight in the clone wars achieves this to near perfection
Actually, if the full force (pun intended) of Jedi powers were used, there would be no need to use lightsabers at all.
A powerful Jedi could just use Force Crush to collapse the soft brains of his opponents within their skulls and its game over in 1 sec.
@@angmohnize-to-atasify same argument as "why don't they just turn off the other persons lightsaber with the force ?" one of the first force abilities most Jedi and Sith learn is a "Force shield" that prevents other force users from doing stuff with the force, it's obviously an excuse but better than nothing.
@@youraverageteaenjoyer. I don't think it's an excuse. I mean, the way the games do it, you learn a specific "spell" to counter Force "spells" generally, is kind of an excuse for gameplay mechanics. But if both fighters had, say, telekinetics and blades, I suppose they would try to push at each other's telekinetic power at the same time as they were trying to strike each other with their blades. Then they would try to trip each other up, so either the opponent's telekinetic defense would slip and you could crush them, or their blade defense would slip and you could stab them.
We saw it in ep. 3 with Yoda and Dooku first seeing if either could defeat the other with the Force (well, Dooku started and Yoda being the pacifist mostly defended) and as that didn't solve it, turned to lightsabers. When Force-users fight with sabers, they channel the Force into their bodies to enhance their saber-fighting abilities, so whenever they're raising their Force powers to directly attack the enemy through, say, lightning or push, they're lowering their blade defense. May be a good move if you have an opening for it, or if you fail you might create the opening that'll end you.
Going by the Darth Bane trilogy trhey could go crazy with it so much. The speed would be incredible by using the force.
"WHAT ARE YOU AIMING FOR!!!" hahahaaa I love Shad. Please don't get an aneurysm.
Honestly, Kylo just moonwalking through a battlefield, stabbing fools left, right and center, sounds like such a massive flex to me, that I have to respect it.
about describing this fight scene as a battle of the baseball bats. now i have something to say about this as a baseball player myself.
there is literally no better way to describe it
I'm not a baseball player, but from my limited knowledge about that game I can say, without a doubt, that it's not the right way to describe it. You baseball players don't miss every single hit you deliver.
No, this is an embarrassment to baseball players. After all, the intent is to hit.
@@ebonslayer3321 i was being kind and thinking of it as a kid's first time playing at the double A level
I don't think baseball players over extend this much if they miss, I think if the actors were throwing themselves around as hard as they're trying to portray they'd injur their backs.
I was there, Gandalf. I was there 3000 years ago when Mauler requested you to do this in his unbridled rage video.
"A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one"
- Bilbo Bigideas Baggins, 2022
I know this video is about swordfighting, etc, however from a lore point of view there is an even bigger issue (and b/c of such things Mouse Wars are not really Star Wars): who is Sith here? The person who is almost completely calm and giving every opportunity to the opponent without any dirty tricks or somebody who is burning with hatred and fury?
Something that everyone missed (and I truly mean everyone) is that the film tries to make a point about neither of them being a jedi or a sith and trying to imply that both share a grey space between the two things. In theory, that's why Rey isn't as righteous as she should and why Kylo isn't as evil as he wants. As you may notice, it doesn't work at all and almost anyone simply ends up thinking that Rey is a bad Jedi and Kylo a bad sith, because that's what the film ends up showing us.
@@garethvila5108 agree, and I'd go one step further and point out that you don't even need to be a Sith or Jedi to be a force user or use a lightsaber. A lot of people forget that the Jedi was a religious order that you had to join and follow the doctrine. The Sith was smaller scale, with fewer rules, and really more like a cult.
And I totally understand why people expect force users to be one of those two options, because we barely been shown anyone using the force without them being a member of one or the other. Which is something we really need to see more of.
Darth Maul wasn't exactly burning with hatred and fury, he doesn't do anything I would call a dirty trick and he remains fairly calm throughout the fight. In fact, after gutting Qui-Gon, he almost acts like it meant nothing to him and it's Obi-Wan that's burning with fury.
@@Edax_Royeaux The dual Saber could be considered a dirty trick, also he takes joy in causing pain. Not entirely fury, but a trained hatred.
Way to much thought being put into this. The reason Rey is suddenly angry in the movie is a reaction to everyone complaining she was "to perfect and a Mary Sue" in the last two movies. Disney overcorrected to repair the Last Jedi damage, so suddenly Rey has trouble with training and loses control in fights. Even though she has no trouble at all in the last two movies. (she still swims and sails great for someone who has never seen water though)
Shad I gotta ask, PLEASE do a "fight scene autopsy" of Ahsoka Tano's and Darth Maul's fight in Clone Wars season 7 episode: The Phantom Apprentice. They mo-capped the entire fight and I'm pretty sure they are aiming for the opponent instead of the blades.
ooooo yes do this
Ray Park did the maul mo cap
Heard that they had to slow it down cuz the mo-cap actors were moving too fast
Oh, yes, I’d love an analysis of that fight scene too!
@@onyx_gabriel I think they asked the actors to slow down so the camera could properly catch their movements for animation. But later they sped it up to a normal sleed for an animated show
When the movie came out, my first thought watching the fight scene on the Death Star was, “my G-d this is awful!” Followed immediately by, “@Shadiversity is going to have a field day with this!” So I’ve been waiting for this video and it did not disappoint.
Me too. Honestly this is way worse than the throne room fight. At least that had some fancy camera work that at least hid the messy choreography upon first viewing. This is just slow, clunky, and it feels like both characters are holding back when neither has a reason too. The spins and the overswings were overtly egregious here and they weren’t channeled immediately into offense or defense like in the prequels. The only fight that’s worse is the one against the Knights of Ren later in the movie when they just swing at Kylo’s sword and not his body and he does a terrible flip that got Anakin’s limbs cut off in ROTS
solid comment but you censored 'god' so im gonna have to deduct points for that
@@snowcat9308 yeah what is up with that lmao
@Snow Cat Deduct points?
Bro, there could be a religious or respective reason behind that
@@sweetdreams1678who gives a fuck, god’s not real
This fight is the equivalent of two untrained baseball players getting angry with each other and trying to duel with their bats while the one that’s supposedly in the right makes angry faces
This is what happens when you don't have a fight choreographer handy, but you have a room stuffed with street dance choreographers...
They made do with what they had at the time!!!! Lol. Tha's why it looks like a bunch of cosplay stormtroopers playing Dance Stage MegaMix with a pretty lady and her little emo brother.
Also they are drunk
@@DailyCorvid its really a shame when you have the biggest franches with the biggest studio at the time and can't afford a fight choreographer. What was it like
Producer: You know JJ if we cut even half the lens flair budget we could afford a decent choreographer
JJ: No *never. cut. the lens flair!*
I actually forgot there was even a fight scene in this Disney Bantha foodoo or whatever it's called. When you found out Luke was just a projected physical hologram and Princess Leah could Marry Poppins through space... and that casino racing animals are more important than a plot, I gave up hope. Even Poe and Flynn, I didn't care for, but they got no love like Chewie's lack of hug.
If it we're an actual baseball fight it would just turn into a fight of who can take the most hits
It is interesting that they do not re-film the scenes where actors miss choreography. Everyone can make mistakes and for some reason instead of correcting those mistakes they put it in the final cut.
Shows you how much they cared... bs waste of a movie
@@rockinHurley777 totally agree the whole film felt like a dumpster fire and the underlying tone was "who gives a crap?"
OR they could have just edited the light saber blades into the right places in post edit... :P
@@brianp6859 "sOmehOw PaLpAtInE rEtOuRnEd."
What?!
@@brianp6859 "this series is so beloved we'll all be millionaires regardless, why put effort in?"
Guys... somehow Fight Scene Autopsy returned!
It confirmed the worst!!!
@@Aelxi somehow Palpatine returned.
Meticulous analysis, logic… secrets only medieval swordsmen knew!
Side note about the spinny fight Skallagrim looked at, there was actually a really clever bit of strategy which is relevant. The guy with the twin hook swords first attempted a frankly suicidal move to see how his opponent reacted. His opponent retreated, rather than take advantage of the massive opening presented. From then on, he knew, this guy is unconfident, he's afraid, so wild aggression is the way to go, and he probably took several risks he wouldn't have otherwise taken. Ayrton Senna did something rather similar in racing, trying a highly aggressive move early on in the race that he knew was only going to work if the other guy gifted him the position, and based on how he reacted, he would either push every single miniscule opportunity, if the guy folded, or hang back and play it safe, waiting for a guaranteed opening to present itself
Usually when I look at fights for the first time, I like them. Even in this fight though, I noticed the first time when they used the Force to stop one another's lightsaber it just felt like a stupid flex.
The lore reason why the Force isn't used during fights is because to use the Force already takes a good amount of concentration. It can also leave you open, even as shown here, they're ridiculously open.
I can't do it this year but probably next year or the year after, I'm going to try and make a better throne room fight scene.
It’s been ten thousand years but once again we’re blessed with fight scene autopsy!
I do appreciate that you took a second to clarify that you're not trying to come after the actors. They got way too much crap for something that was really just a job. Good on you.
Also, it messed me up to find out that they had the same choreographer for this trilogy as they did for the prequels.
Nick Gillard did the lightsaber duels for the prequels. He did not return for the sequels.
@@randalthevandal3835 don't remember the name of the fight coordinator, but i know he was the same guy who did 'the eternals' as well...
@@petriew2018 Mike Lambert
But Eternals didn't turn out that bad, at least it show proper extraordinary powerhouse clashing, tRoS is just...terrible.
But also keep in mind the only reason you even heard about this supposed "harassment" was because it was a fabricated outrage created by Disney to shift publics attention away from their own failures. Hear me out:
The timing was just too big of a coincidence for it to be true. it was mighty convenient for them. Just think about it. Before it happened the whole internet was buzzing about the failure of Disney star wars, everyone was sharing pictures of empty theaters at the premiere of Rogue One. Every article was about fans being so sick of Disney trilogy that now they refusing to see the next movie as a protest. It was really hurting their ticket sells.
And SUDDENLY the next day every Disney owned "journalist" started talking about actors from the previous movies getting "harassed" by "toxic SW fans". Funny thing is, there was not a single article about it until Rogue One was getting a bad publicity. They didn't had a single screenshot of proof either (which is weird, usually they do). Suddenly the narrative was flipped and not liking Disney SW meant you are "toxic, racist, sexist", every buzzword they could come up with.
Why were they harassed NOW? You wanna tell me some angry fans only started harassing them YEARS after the original premiere? That's not how internet outrage works. It does not grow over time, internet has a short attention span.
The best part is - even the"harassed" actress later admitted that she removed her accounts not because of harassment, but because it was part of her contract. She never liked social media but she had to create it to promote the movies. She removed it when the deal ended.
And here me out - it's the internet. I didn't say they didn't receive some mean comments, ok? Everyone gets mean comments and even death threats made by some dumb 12 year olds. You don't even have to be a celebrity to experience that. We all been there. We just ignore it cause we know those are dumb and immature kids. The only difference you are expecting it for free.
Now imagine you are getting payed MILLIONS OF DOLLARS to say some lines in a movie. Would you refuse that job simply just because of some mean tweets? Ofc you wouldn't... I can bet literally every single person on earth would agree to take that deal even for a fraction of that price.
Every single person would LOVE to be "harassed by internet comments" in exchange for millions of dollars. Imagine getting 10k every time someone insults you online.
So long story short - you could "fabricate" "harassment" stories about literally every single celebrity that even existed. Cause literally every one of them is experiencing that ar some level (and it sucks, but that's part of the job, and everyone would still love having that job). But Disney could focus your attention to any actress and you would have the same angry reaction. It was all about manipulating the masses, about shifting your attention away, shifting the blame. You heard that story not because Disney cared, they wanted to sell more tickets. So Disney had to present themselves as "victims of abuse", it's the oldest trick in the book, they do it all the time and it's disgusting. The fact that every single of those articles was made by Disney employees should be enough of a proof, everything can be traced back to them. It was an coordinated attack
It happens all the time when it comes to politics, but it happens with movies and huge corporations as well
@@redace4821 the worst rated/only rotten tomato MCU movie didn't turn out bad? Huh?
16:00 ...Now hang on. Is it possible that ALL of the actual lightsabers were just added in post, and the actors were just swinging blindly at each other with the handles? That'd also go some way towards explaining the strikes that would have missed w/o needing to dodge, overswings, weird bind moments, etc.
They used props. Ones that even lit up, to help give a glow on the surroundings. But not full length ones. Still, that's no excuse for the bad choreography... if anything, it makes it even harder to excuse.
@@khandimahn9687 Right? Fully-CG lightsabers could at least have had the excuse of trying to edit around choreography. I remember some behind-the-scenes stuff with the prequels had them using full-sized props. Made the scenes a whole lot better because their lightsabers didn't just pass through each other when you looked closely.
I don't really mind Rey, in her rage, overly telegraphing her attacks
And I don't really mind Kylo, in trying to get Rey to join him, not taking advantage of the countless opportunities Rey gives him to end her
But the fact that so many of the strikes weren't even aimed at the opponent is unforgivable. Blindfolded people trying to hit piñatas land closer to the target than many of these swings
My sentiments exactly
"Shit! I hate it when I get my shwarts twisted!"
I was thinking of going with "Your shwarts is as big as mine." But the twisted line conveys so much more to the situation.
Cool to see this mini series back.
Hey Shad, would you consider breaking down the main sword fight in Princess Bride?
The phantom apprentice reaction 🤔🙂
I fully agree we need to see it
Which fight do you mean (there are several big ones)?
@@daedalus5253 I would assume the one in question opens with ". . .I hate to kill you."
Jill Bearup did a great analysis of the cliffside fight! She doesn't break it down frame-by-frame (or even move-by-move, because as she points out, there are way too many moves to do that), but I still highly recommend it!
Always questioned how a girl that had not seen a lightsaber until a few days before held her own against a master in force awakens.
Now i understand, kylo is just also terrible.
Considering that he was trained by the best, meaning someone like the red guards in TLJ, its no wonder that he sucks. Everyone just sucks.
Based on onscreen feats, Jar Jar Binks would make Kylo Ren his bitch.
@@gameragodzilla I mean jarjar mind tricked the entire republic council into electing palpatine.
The actors in the prequals spent so much time perfecting the choreography. It's so night and day when you look at the sequels. You'd think with all the money they threw at the movie they could've gotten a decent fight choreographer and trainers. And if the actors don't want to put in the work then you get different actors.
They could have gone on you tube and find half a dozen people who'd have done a better job in ten seconds
It's as though there was either no choreographer or the actors simply decided whatever they did on the day would be good enough.
OR Abrams just thought 'It's Star Wars! The sheep will eat whatever shit we give them and think it's amazing!'
I really have to appreciate actors who can actually perform their own stunts and have solid choreography teams to back them up. Too bad neither Daisy Ridley nor Adam Driver have that luxury.
I definitely like the Prequel fights more, especially because we had great casting choices for fights like Ray Park (who is a stuntman himself), Sir Christopher Lee (who actually had fencing experience), and Hayden Christiansen (for spending so much time with Nick Gillard to nail the RotS fight; watch the BTS video and you’ll see his practice sessions).
MauLer’s shoutout to you in his TRoS Unbridled Rage has finally come to fruition! Thank you!
Just when you thought you'd seen the limit of their failure, you dig deeper and find that it just goes on, and on..
Kylo: "I need your help to defeat the emperor."
Rey: "Why? I'm terrible at using this thing."
Kylo: "I know, I'm hoping it'll make the emperor double over in laughter, then that's when I'll strike."
“I mean, it’ll probably just go over his head or something, but that’ll make him laugh harder.”
Ah yes
I’m so glad these fight scene autopsies are back! Thank you and may the Force be with you!
If I may give a suggestion for the next fighting scene, I would love to see the swordfight in the smithy from the first Pirates of the Caribbean.
Ooh, an old classic like that would be a great palate cleanser.
i second this motion
I'd love for either Shad, Skall, or (maybe best of all) Matt(ScolaGladiatoria) to do an analysis of sword fights from the entire Pirates of The Caribbean movie series.
@@RaptorTroll360 a collab
39:32 This is actually one of the few things that are kinda logical and consistent with the pre-established lightsaber rules within Star Wars. When the two blades (or more accurately, the force fields containing the plasma that makes up the "blades") come into contact, they sort of jam into each other, preventing any sliding action, or at least making it present much more resistance than two normal metal blades would have sliding along one another. Not sure whether this is completely justified, but it does make at least a decent modicum of sense given the rules. A shame that there were so many times that these rules were broken anyway, whenever a lightsaber passed through another lightsaber ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Same as the very first attack actually, it makes perfect sense imo. The baseball bat-like telegraphed overswing on Rey´s part makes perfect sense considering how immensely pissed she just got prior to it. Even if she had some form and technique, I could believe she forgot all about it for a moment there. A shame she clearly doesn´t, anyway ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
41:29 This one the other hand, while really cool at face value, goes against the pre-established rules. Trained Force users have an innate Force field around them, which makes manipulating their bodies using the Force much harder, hence why there are even lightsaber fights instead of one person instantly crushing the other´s throat from 20 meters away.
>Completely missing everything
>Lightsabers passing through each other
>"THAT'S NOT HOW THE FORCE WORKS!"
And there’s the Kylo vs Knights of Ren which is essentially an editing nightmare.
Anyone else go back to the original ROTJ scenes on the Death Star to see if they could spot the door leading to Sheev’s McMuffin (to no avail)?
I am so glad McMuffin has become such a universal term for that plot device xD
I think the lightsabers are implied to "fuse" momentarily when they touch, so the blades can't slide into each other while they're in the bind. Maybe the parts where it looks like they slide is actually the lightsabers doing a tiny bounce off each other first. That's a real hand-wavey explanation, though.
That’s very dumb. How do you block with a weapon where it can just pass through?
Apparently electrons stick to each other, which may explain why lightssbers stick.
@@Myth_or_Mystery76 they have shield around them, that is how the plasma is contained
More thought than the writer put in.
@@Aconspiracyofravens1 It's magnets son.
Great breakdown Shad. Especially loved you and Oz recreating the scenes, really showed how ridiculous they were.
Have to say, the vfx team did a great job with the saber motion so we can all mock the choreography
What people DON’T know is this was actually planned to be a perfect recreation of Rei and Kylo’s first stick fight as children imagining they were knights.
The quality is actually astounding. Dead on, context killed by editing though😔
Joke?
Joke?
@@grognakthedestroyerattorne3211 nope, truth. Rey and Kylo, lore wise, have no real skills compared to Luke, who didn’t have the finesse of Anakin.
@@theoneaboveall4533 what about the throne room fight? If they had no skill, how did they win?
@@rmdavidov plot armour lmfao
20:24 aiming for the enemy sword is a classic beginners mistake. Newbies get tunnel vision on the "dangerous" weapon and forget what they are actually supposed to do.
And swinging at empty space?
@@inarencommander4663 maybe the empty space insulted her mother, who am I to tell...
If she's a beginner making beginner's mistakes then wtf does that make Kylo?
@@joshuaa7266 a simp.
As a longtime member of the Fandom Menace movement , It has become clear over the years to us , that NO ONE on RISE had a single CLUE as to what the hell they were doing or trying to accomplish. It was a complete cluster from start to finish
Fandom menace
@@rockinHurley777 Yeah I noticed it , was distracted when I wrote it the first time. dammed cats. And damn I forgot just how really bad this was.
My only defence of the rise of skywalker, and i did my best to think up a good defence of the rise of skywalker so i could have a full, proper, and sound critique of it, is that Rian Johnson left JJ in such a shit position for the rise of skywalker that it was fundamentally impossible for JJ to make a good film out of it. Main villans killed off and turned into a love intrest, first order a laughing stock, possibility of resistance being effective nonexistent, dozens of loose ends from both the first and second movie's, everything was fucked.
And he still didn't do anything even close to as good as he could have done with the film. Which is almost an achievement.
@@Santisima_Trinidad Colin Trevarrow had a half decent idea on how to follow up episode 8. Then he got fired...
@@harlannguyen4048 dammit Disney.
original trilogy: fights are for the emotional effect
prequel trilogy: fights are like fighting dances
sequel trilogy: fights are just swinging and aiming for the air
Videos like yours are the only way I can experience interest and joy while watching anything from this....product.
The static block behind the back from Kylo was worse than the moon-walking attack. Granted, they’re both confusing, so if Kylo were looking to capitalize on confusing the opponent, it’s best to do so as an attack and not a static guard (where you’re not able to see your weapon or the opponent’s).
Finally! Shad, you just made Mauler very happy! he asked for this years ago:))
I’ve been looking forward to this, I’m looking forward to if you do the fight with Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Darth Maul.
Yeah i would find this interesting as well!
This was fun. I suggest analysing the Doctor who fight scene from the Christmas Invasion (vs Sycorax). It's a short fight scene but considering doctor who isn't really a show where sword fighting is common and considering their budget is so much less than star wars it might be fun to analyse.
Ooohh so nostalgic; i'd love to see that one - though I can't imagine it was very practical in terms of movements.
@@lewisroach8723 Costuming probably also made it additionally challenging.
I'm on board with this idea
Wow, I have way too much hype for this video. In the theater when I first watched the movie I felt like something was wrong with the fight, but never could put my finger on it. Later I found Mauler’s video who said you’d make one on the fight and here we are about 3 years later.
You really do get a higher appreciation for Qui-Gon Jinn meditating the fight with Darth Maul after seeing a "Jedi" being a screeching rage-fueled berserker.
That fight scene really convinced me that Rey should have been the “sith”. Kylo was always calm and collected during fights, and Rey is the embodiment of rage.
Liam Neeson and Alec Guinness are the best Jedi actors in the series.
Darth Maul was also calm during the fight.
After watching this I honestly wouldn’t be surprised to learn that there was no fight choreographer and they just gave the actors bare hilts and had them go out and improvise.
Seeing how they had two directors and each one changed the other one's plots I'm inclined to believe that they also had a couple of choreographers contradicting each other.
Adam Driver seems like he would be awesomely choreographed if done right, he could could probably easily do it, but these fight scene producers don't care about quality, they don't care about the coolness of fights, they throw logic out the window because reasons I guess.
@@ancapgrandscribe9546 It seemed that he knew the choreography and was doing his part, Daisy just hadn’t practiced and went for all the wrong body parts so it looked ridiculous.
@@justthinkingoutloud2538 That's for sure, but he made flops as well, but that's more or less the choreographers fault. I believe Driver has much better potential in a scene like this then what they forced him to do.
I hope we get to see live action lightsaber fights like there is in the old republic game trailers, force powers, hand to hand combat and awesome lightsaber duels all combined
I would love that, although I feel like we should first just ask for decent fight scenes from Disney before asking them to recreate some of the best fight scenes in Star Wars media (seriously though why are the fight scenes so good when the game isn’t really that massive)
I love that you had a friend helping you out and he seemed to be having as much fun as you were acting out more realistic scenarios even when you were constantly bapping him with the saber. This is awesome to watch.
Would love to see an autopsy of the Old Republic cinematic fights, especially the bind from the latest one. They are probably not that practical but they look badass!
I've been waiting for this for a literal year! Thanks Cha... Shad!
Funnily enough the word sin in Greek means "to miss the mark" i.e. in archery. However, given how many times Ray and Kylo both miss the marks in swordsmanship, we can say that this fight is a sin against sword choreography.
This should have way more likes
Finally another fight scene autopsy
Also can you guys do one on the princess bride fight scene?
Yes please
That would be cool
How about the fight scene in Tangled as well? You know the fight between Flynn against the guards and Maximus.
I have heard that that Princess Bride scene is actually very well done and both actors had training in fencing.
“I’m not a sith” only a sith deals in absolutes
Hopefully you do Obi-Wan “Hello There” Kenobi versus General “General Kenobi” Grievous.
I’ve always hated that lightsaber duel because Grievous with his four arms should never have lost. They swing sabers at each other and Kenobi’s meets all 4 of Grievous’s, instead of Grievous pinning Kenobi’s one blade and then using another to cut Kenobi in half or something.
Kenobi should have been on the defensive the entire time, trying to stay away from Grievous’s reach and using his surroundings to figure out how to take him on.
This 100%
I just left a comment about this fight, Obi Wan won only because he had plot armor
He did something similar in a deleted scene in the clone wars animated tv show.
Kenobi was on the defensive the entire time, only taking the opportunity to cut a hand off when grievous made a mistake, Kenobi was literally the best defensive duelist in probably the entirety of star wars, that's why mace says that Kenobi is the only one who could defeat grievous, and also you have to remember that jedi have extremely enhanced reflexes and can almost predict how their opponent will move next in a way, so as soon as grievous does try to trick Kenobi he would sense it, pull back, and block the incoming strike, we do see him dodging and keeping his saber very close to his chest as to not overextend and leave himself vulnerable, he also keeps his distance the entire fight, close enough to quickly strike at one of grievous' hands, but far enough away so that grievous cant exploit his numerical advantage by just reaching around and stabbing him. Although I do admit there are some parts where you do have to suspend your disbelief a bit
the fight was short and kenobi was on the defensive all the time and used slight stabs to disarm him and the force to push him away, I would have liked a longer fight but the creators transformed Griveous into a coward (so that he wasnt an op lol).
I dont know man, I enjoyed the fight even though it could have been better, and the build up gave us the greatest meme in movie history lol.
Fond memories of seeing it.
@@Battyj agreed
26:57 I think there's one very easily missed thing there that you didn't see. For a very brief moment when the camera is showing him being knocked back by the force push, you can see the lightsabers clash in the background. So I think it's presumably implied that they were already fighting again before the camera goes back to them.
Yeah the push only takes a couple seconds and while he's sliding the scene we see where he strikes at her is already taking place. I just assume when they make cuts like this in movies that when they cut back its like going back and forth in time.
doesn’t help that she turn her back from him during the fight.
@@jaieregilmore971 Didn't say it did.
I have been waiting so long for this. When I first saw this fight I was laughing at it so much. It's so bad, knew you would tear it apart. Lets go.
Ngl this is my favorite type of video from you Shad. Also how I found your channel through the Anakin vs Obi-Wan one. Excited for more in the future.
So, any chance you could cover the original Scene 38 from ANH? I feel like that's one that people really view with rose-tinted glasses. It would be interesting to see how badly the original "spinning mirror rod" props held back the actors due to their lack of durability.
Yeah, that one was frankly awful.
I waited YEARS for this video! Thank you!
The arm flailing is so much worse with lightsabers too because you get maximum damage even with next to no force, you don't need a big swing, the tiniest poke is going all the way through
Edit: 44:30 Yeah that's what I'm saying
A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one! I've been hoping for you to do this ever since I first saw Kylo swing his Lightsaber like a baseball bat!
I'd like to see an analysis of the FIRST light saber duel in the Star Wars franchise, Obi Wan vs Darth Vader in Episode IV. It's the least flashy but it looks fairly text book as far as a sword fight goes.
Yeah, very foil fencing like, but there is one spin that Ben Kenobi does that is pretty bad
@@soulsuckingginger7535 Yeah, I've spent years defending that fight, but that spin is just really bad. But you know... It's 1977, Alec Guinnes is pretty old, the original lightsaber props were heavy, they had a power cord (they actually lit up on set), it's no surprise that he couldn't do it better, they just wanted some sparkle in there. It's not good, but A+ for trying
Or better yet a look at SC 38 Re-imagined.
@@ToaCody1 so so good
The slow spin attack…
I literally just thought to check out your channel after like a couple months of not visiting to watch a fight scene autopsy and you made one yesterday, I couldn't have better timing
So glad you're back to do these. I would love to see your take on the Clone Wars light saber fights like Ahsoka vs Maul or Anakin vs Bariss or Ventress and Obi Wan vs Savage and Maul.
I'll once again recommend you take a look at the final fight scene from sword of the stranger, visually beautiful, but there are a few not-so great moments
Since this series is back, I’d love to see you review Maul vs Ashoka, or even Duku vs the night sisters. They are some of the best fights is the clone wars, imo.
I'd like to see kit fisto vs grevious
Dooku vs Anakin and Obi-Wan, maybe?
Here you go th-cam.com/video/rXkrkx8-uRE/w-d-xo.html
Maul vs. Kenobi. Yes, that scene.
Haha I literally rewatched Mauler's RoS review this morning and got to the part where he mentioned you. Glad it's happening!
From Samurai Theater in space, to Elven Blade Dancers in Space, to Drunken Baseball Bat fights.
Oh how Star Wars has fallen.
Mixed with that shity Mulan knockoff
Ok Shad you totally nailed it. The first thing you teach is not to aim for their sword like a child. You aim to hit them.I glossed over this because I considered it a romantic scene not a fight. Daisy doesn't look like she wants to kill him. Nor does he look like he wants to even injure her.
I was hoping you'd cover this fight, I hated this part when I was in the theater, when I told my parents about how I found the baseball bat swings were super distracting and they told me "actual sword fighting isn't engaging" 😑
This fight scene is outrageous
It's unfair!
@@der_benson4478 Thank you! I was waiting for that
They really could have done a lot with the Kylo v Rey scenes. Have her be super duper force powerful. Have her be AWFUL with sword fighting. But have Kylo be a master who just picks apart her technique with ease, and the only way she survives is by cheating and using the force to give herself all the terrain advantages.
But that would require good writing.
At this point it was too late, Rey had already beaten Kylo before with zero training even after a trained soldier (Finn) had lost to him
I'm currently only 10 minutes in and I LOVE your energy reviewing this! Shad I heckin love you fella
I'd love Shad to do a fight scene autopsy on Wesley vs Inigo at the Cliffs of Insanity from The Princess Bride.
I'd be excited to see breakdowns of some of the animated lightsaber duels from Clone Wars and Rebels. Namely Maul vs. Ashoka or Maul vs. Ben Kenobi
The iconic battle between Rey DiMaggio and Kylo Ruth finally analyzed, thanks!
oh my god...the face of Rey represent the sequel perfectly
Also a reminder to anyone curious about the Rey doing yet another fight against multiple Sith troopers or whatever they are, PSA Sitch made a great video pointing out how much of a disaster it is on an editing level.
I love these. Even though I usually watch them a little bit at a time because of the length, they're well worth it. I would suggest doing a fight scene autopsy of the climactic duel in "Rob Roy" (1995). Many professional movie critics with no training in sword combat praised it for its believability, so it would be great to hear the opinion of someone who knows what he's talking about. I'd also enjoy hearing your opinion of the movie if you've seen it. The knife fight in "The Hunted" (1995) got similar praise, so that would be an interesting autopsy too.