You know its kinda scary how much foresight the writers of the Trails series had when writing the lore/story/plot for these games. Freaking Osborne, a character that plays a major role almost 10 years from the release of this game (in Cold Steel), is mentioned and talked about. And the way they talk about him in this game is still extremely accurate to how he is in Cold Steel so there's no noticeable form of retconning. The story telling in these games are so good.
If you think the name dropping of and about him in the sky games so far has been good then trails in the sky the 3rd is going to be an absolute treat for you. Seriously, be hyped for the last sky game, the most beautiful lore dump in existence.
Kondo already has the draft on how the story will go in general. What takes time is how he will incorporate it in the gameplay, characters, and break it or giving hints here and there without spoiling the other arcs in the future.
Trails has some minor location retconning though, for example based on the way Kevin described the Holy City of Arteria it shouldn't be in the North of the continent so I'm guessing at the time they only drew a map of Liberl and Erabonia.
The statement when Zechs tells his troops to retreat: "Go back to Parm". So seriously they had that locations , map all sorted out even way before Coldsteel? And the brief mention of Hamel tragedy I am starting to feel aliens
It really was. I played the Cold Steel games before getting Trails in the Sky and this was the one moment where I REALLY wished I had been able to play the games in order of release. The reveal was done so perfectly and they did an excellent job of making you think he was just an intelligence agent for the empire, so I can only imagine how shocked I would have been had I played the Sky games first.
Well yeah, trails in the sky the 3rd is what you really wanted to play before jumping into cold steel. There is so many info dumps and overarching lore, that it will make your head spin. the 3rd actually incorporates a much more content heavy narrative as apposed to SC which had alot of padding throughout. Osborne a very important character in the cold steel series is also introduced in trails in the sky the 3rd.
I personally don't mind so much because it's just as awe inspiring either way. I was really looking forward to this moment and I wasn't disappointed. I didn't notice any real lore road blocks playing Cold Steel I and II first personally, so for me it's totally fine going back. I know III is where things start getting up there with the past game lore so I'm playing through them all before then. I and II you can get by just fine if you really want to play CS first. You might need to to see how good this series is. Like an updated looking version. With more voice acting and models and such. I can play older games, but it takes time to get into sometimes. For me anyway.
At least for me, Olivert in Cold Steel is the reason I'll be going back to Trails in the Sky, though I'll probably find I'll enjoy more of it besides that
Olivier/Olivert is in a sense, the true MVP of the Kiseki series. He built the network consisting of the Kiseki heroes and even clashed in between Noble and Reformist in his own turf. Nobody comes close to the dedication he showed on the entire franchise and I'm glad he finally got some sweet reward on CS4. Still, here's hoping he will make an appearance on the Calvard arc, albeit minor.
Kondo revealed in an interview when the plans for Zero no Kiseki were unveiled that their original plan was to release an Erebonia chapter but as he kept reviewing his drafts and the overall storyline it became too obvious that it was important to introduce Crossbell. So yes, Zero and Ao came into existence AFTER the Erebonian storyline was already tentatively written and the Cold Steel games were always meant to be the big "important moment" in the series where everything changed.
@@gamerprince-tl5hg Technically it's better to say the concept already existed by the time Sky ended. I doubt the entire story of Rean per-se was written back then (in fact Rean's storyline was the most recent thing about it), but the whole civil war story and Osbourne's storyline and backstory were already conceptualized by the time the third Sky game came out. So if you want to know a year, the concept for Cold Steel was already designed by 2007-ish.
@@LeonGun8 What boggles me is why in hell did they think it was a good idea to spoil the whole point of Cold Steel 1 and 2 with the ending of Ao. They could've done all the same stuff and avoided this problem just by simply removing the last image of the slideshow regarding erebonia in Ao's ending, much like they didn't touch on the Calvard situation.
Honestly the best moment of the entire game for me and cemented Olivier as my favourite characters. This seen accomplishes so much. It foreshadows the later games in the franchise, adds depth to Oliver's character, develops the world building, shows how far Estelle has come in her bracer training. Not to mention habmvong snappy tension filled dialogue and raising the stakes. Such a perfect scene. My second favourite scene in the entire game would have to be the Kevin reveal at the end
Rewatching this scene after playing through Cold Steel 3 was an eye opener... Me playing this the first time, I didn't care about the chancellor and just thought he was just some flavor text to add to the dialogue... Even the geography of erebonia flashed back to me when General Vander mentioned they were returning to Parm and I thought: "Oh yeah that village was just a bit north of Liberl from my time there on CS3"
Olivier is my 2nd fave party member. The first being Kloe. At FC, it was a delight knowing Kloe is a princess. NOW HERE! I didn't know that he is a prince (well, I had my suspicion though lol). What are the chances! 2 of my fave members lol. Oh and that hair style is good! Better than the usual Olivier. Now gotta finish the SC. I was stuck doing side quests and leveling up Tita sigh...
Hopefully you've played Cold Steel by now, since I'm going to be saying this. I love Olivier as a character even more now knowing his ideals, and personality more. Things he wants to accomplish.
Personally, I think it's still fun going back and being like ooooo that's what happened, or that's why this is like this. I don't know if I would've burned through Trails in the Sky FC and SC like I did if I'd started with them. Though, granted, I played FC on hard so it was a slow burn. I don't know. I think for me I needed Cold Steel to get me introduced. Now I'm just as excited to learn the rest of the story before I get my hands on CS3.
What references are lost? I started with Cold Steel as well and I didn't notice anything lost. Olivert still hates Osborne and wants him out of the country
@@gamerprince-tl5hg the scene here shows his final proof that Osbore is working togetherwith Ouborus. Before these Steam-powered Tanks "conviniently" showed up it was just an assumption, but these events were the final, solid proof for Olivier that he must go.
@@gamerprince-tl5hg There are a lot of minor references to previous games in Cold Steel 1 and 2 like mentioning Estelle and Joshua or some events in Liberl and Crossbell. This is what makes these games so good.
Olivierr! That got us good! Always known he is not as simple as he acted to be, but then never would've guessed this too! This explains his sharp wit and quick insights..
Yeah, Schera suspected him of being a secret Erabonian agent since FC but I thought he was just a minor noble (e.g. a knight) looking to increase the power of his house by recruiting Cassius.
I wish I re-watched this part before I played Trails of Cold Steel I and II... I completely forgot that chancellor Osborne was mentioned in Trails in the Sky SC!
*spoilers He was literally a man with his power rising since Trails in the Sky, and was considered a threat, even though he started out as being mentioned by name only in-game.. .. Trails in the Sky/Zero/Azure/Cold Steel literally considered Chancellor Osborne as the REAL enemy.. what with everything connected to what was happening in COLD STEEL III and IV regarding the curse.
Love it when the hollow music starts when they inform erebonia arrived. Really gives you a "oh shit" moment especially with everything that's already going on.
I played Trails of Cold Steel 1 before any of the Trails in the Sky games and I was still blown away when Olivier turned out to be prince Olivert. I never put two and two together 😂
I just realized how Kloe said that she is an inexperienced negotiator and she was. Have not Estelle intervened then she would lose and the army will force itself to check on Liberl.
Czekałem na ten moment kiedy Olivier ujawni kim jest. Joshua już się domyślił. I nie zawiodłem się! :) Estuve esperando este momento cuando Olivier desvela su identidad! Excellente!
It could be, because the camera is no electrical but mechanical. It must work like real world film cameras. The shutter snaps for a fraction of a second, the image gets burn in the quartz. But maybe they wont be able to print it until the reverse the orbal shut down.
everything is better with the evo voice acting, im happy i waited on playing the series and had the voice acting installed not only for battles, but all of the dialouge as well (even if not matching 100% of it due to having some deviations)
I'm pissed I couldn't get Estelle to A-Rank. Pretty sure I did every optional job in the game (unless I missed some hidden ones). There were times where I missed out on BP through answer choices and actions but I was sure I was gonna make it to A anyway :(
@@YhokoCaeda I haven't played CS4 yet but Estelle is canonically B-rank so you gotta work really hard to push her beyond that, when it comes to power levels they've always portrayed Joshua (in cutscenes) as being stronger and he's like an A tier fighter at best which means that she's probably B+ tier. Estelle's somewhere between Anelace and Joshua/Zin in terms of strength.
Im really curious about Olivert reaction regarding your current rank. I would like to see what he says when you're like still C/D/E rank from skipping all optional bracer quests.
On my first playthrough I got C rank (did ~half the quests) and Olivier says that Estelle is “a bracer of some renown” but doesn’t ask to confirm her rank I’m curious if it changes for the + and - versions of the ranks but I don’t want to play through the whole game over and over for it 😭
At 25:12 I thought the max rank for Estelle in this game is B-rank. How can she outrank Agate and Schera without solving a major national crisis and it being confirmed by the guild? Besides, all official sources I checked confirmed her, Joshua and Anelace to be B-ranked.
That's a good question. Why would Falcom let her become A-ranked in the game if she's B-ranked in canon? You'd think they could just patch the game so that ranks go from H to B instead. I'm guessing she met the BP requirement for A-rank, but not other requirements like the ones you mentioned. Maybe Elnan intentionally did her paperwork wrong at 9:10 so that she would mistakenly believe she was A-ranked, thus giving her a much-needed morale boost for the endgame. Or maybe he jumped the gun and wrongly assumed the higher ups would approve her promotion. I think the most likely explanation is that the BP based ranks are unofficial and only denote the maximum rank a Bracer can obtain during their next review, but the reviewers can choose a lower official rank based on other factors.
Pretty much, plus the canon ranks are determined by secondary sources. Falcom has actually never stated the Liberl bracers ranks in-game after SC, but they did state every single Liberl Bracer's rank in an article for Dengeki. Joshua,Estelle, Anelace, Agate and Scherazard were all raised to B-rank due to their contributions at stopping the Society of Ouroboros. They also officially state Kurt as the only active A-rank bracer in Liberl. I kinda feel bad for Carna and Grant since they were kind of ignored, only Anelace and Kurt got credit.
@@dimitrisc She is bluffing. She's buying time given when she said that the next working orbal communication would be a couple of selge away. I'm playing Zero no Kiseki and the branch know their accomplishments and has a promising potential but they obviously nowhere near the caliber of the bracers there given that all who are there during the arc were B and A ranks.
i really should replayed sora 1 2.. i played those long ago just for the gameplay not story, i cant understand most politics back then, even right now i barely understand what actually happening
Are you talking about the playthrough in this video? Yes, in 9:07 she raised to A rank. Only possible if you done every single bracer guild quests, including hidden ones, and doing extra stuff/picking the right choices for the extra BP which gives you a total maximum of 382 points where you need at least 380 to reach A rank. but I guess you already knew about it already.
@@Kernviter Yeah she's canonically B. SC lets you become A rank for some reason, maybe it's some sort of fanservice for completionist, or they just retconned it in CS for plot purposes
Estelle solve an entire crisis of a country and including countless quest to considered B rank. It makes me thinking just what kind of achivement cassius did to reach S rank.
![[ The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky SC ] Episode 53 - Joshua's Harem Debut](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LQ_wpf_jjO8/mqdefault.jpg)
![[ The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky SC ] Episode 53 - Joshua's Harem Debut](/img/tr.png)
Estelle: Btw, why kevin here?
Kevin: church business!
Inner kevin: going to salt someone
That made me laugh more than it should have!
Asalt someone
Imagine this scene in full 3D Remake, just when they announce the remake of FC
You know its kinda scary how much foresight the writers of the Trails series had when writing the lore/story/plot for these games. Freaking Osborne, a character that plays a major role almost 10 years from the release of this game (in Cold Steel), is mentioned and talked about. And the way they talk about him in this game is still extremely accurate to how he is in Cold Steel so there's no noticeable form of retconning. The story telling in these games are so good.
If you think the name dropping of and about him in the sky games so far has been good then trails in the sky the 3rd is going to be an absolute treat for you. Seriously, be hyped for the last sky game, the most beautiful lore dump in existence.
Kondo already has the draft on how the story will go in general. What takes time is how he will incorporate it in the gameplay, characters, and break it or giving hints here and there without spoiling the other arcs in the future.
Trails has some minor location retconning though, for example based on the way Kevin described the Holy City of Arteria it shouldn't be in the North of the continent so I'm guessing at the time they only drew a map of Liberl and Erabonia.
They pretty much laid most of the foundations here..
The statement when Zechs tells his troops to retreat: "Go back to Parm". So seriously they had that locations , map all sorted out even way before Coldsteel? And the brief mention of Hamel tragedy
I am starting to feel aliens
The revelation of Olivier was just to good.
It really was. I played the Cold Steel games before getting Trails in the Sky and this was the one moment where I REALLY wished I had been able to play the games in order of release. The reveal was done so perfectly and they did an excellent job of making you think he was just an intelligence agent for the empire, so I can only imagine how shocked I would have been had I played the Sky games first.
Well yeah, trails in the sky the 3rd is what you really wanted to play before jumping into cold steel. There is so many info dumps and overarching lore, that it will make your head spin. the 3rd actually incorporates a much more content heavy narrative as apposed to SC which had alot of padding throughout. Osborne a very important character in the cold steel series is also introduced in trails in the sky the 3rd.
I personally don't mind so much because it's just as awe inspiring either way. I was really looking forward to this moment and I wasn't disappointed. I didn't notice any real lore road blocks playing Cold Steel I and II first personally, so for me it's totally fine going back. I know III is where things start getting up there with the past game lore so I'm playing through them all before then. I and II you can get by just fine if you really want to play CS first. You might need to to see how good this series is. Like an updated looking version. With more voice acting and models and such. I can play older games, but it takes time to get into sometimes. For me anyway.
I had Agate's reaction to that reveal, as I'm sure several people did.
At least for me, Olivert in Cold Steel is the reason I'll be going back to Trails in the Sky, though I'll probably find I'll enjoy more of it besides that
Olivier/Olivert is in a sense, the true MVP of the Kiseki series. He built the network consisting of the Kiseki heroes and even clashed in between Noble and Reformist in his own turf. Nobody comes close to the dedication he showed on the entire franchise and I'm glad he finally got some sweet reward on CS4.
Still, here's hoping he will make an appearance on the Calvard arc, albeit minor.
He does, at the ending credits of Kuro 1
Amazing that they already had the plot for Trails of Cold Steel long before its release.
That's what got me to love this series so much...
Kondo revealed in an interview when the plans for Zero no Kiseki were unveiled that their original plan was to release an Erebonia chapter but as he kept reviewing his drafts and the overall storyline it became too obvious that it was important to introduce Crossbell.
So yes, Zero and Ao came into existence AFTER the Erebonian storyline was already tentatively written and the Cold Steel games were always meant to be the big "important moment" in the series where everything changed.
@@LeonGun8 Oh shit so Cold Steel's story was already written around the time Zero was first revealed? And when was that?
@@gamerprince-tl5hg Technically it's better to say the concept already existed by the time Sky ended. I doubt the entire story of Rean per-se was written back then (in fact Rean's storyline was the most recent thing about it), but the whole civil war story and Osbourne's storyline and backstory were already conceptualized by the time the third Sky game came out.
So if you want to know a year, the concept for Cold Steel was already designed by 2007-ish.
@@LeonGun8 What boggles me is why in hell did they think it was a good idea to spoil the whole point of Cold Steel 1 and 2 with the ending of Ao. They could've done all the same stuff and avoided this problem just by simply removing the last image of the slideshow regarding erebonia in Ao's ending, much like they didn't touch on the Calvard situation.
Olivert's epic gamer moment is what made me love the Trails franchise.
easily my favorite part in the game. u gotta love prince Olivert.
Honestly the best moment of the entire game for me and cemented Olivier as my favourite characters.
This seen accomplishes so much. It foreshadows the later games in the franchise, adds depth to Oliver's character, develops the world building, shows how far Estelle has come in her bracer training. Not to mention habmvong snappy tension filled dialogue and raising the stakes. Such a perfect scene.
My second favourite scene in the entire game would have to be the Kevin reveal at the end
Oliver and Cassius are cheeky little bastards. I love it.
Rewatching this scene after playing through Cold Steel 3 was an eye opener... Me playing this the first time, I didn't care about the chancellor and just thought he was just some flavor text to add to the dialogue... Even the geography of erebonia flashed back to me when General Vander mentioned they were returning to Parm and I thought: "Oh yeah that village was just a bit north of Liberl from my time there on CS3"
Same here man.
Same. The music and scenary of parm flashed back to me
Olivier is my 2nd fave party member. The first being Kloe. At FC, it was a delight knowing Kloe is a princess. NOW HERE! I didn't know that he is a prince (well, I had my suspicion though lol). What are the chances! 2 of my fave members lol. Oh and that hair style is good! Better than the usual Olivier.
Now gotta finish the SC. I was stuck doing side quests and leveling up Tita sigh...
Hopefully you've played Cold Steel by now, since I'm going to be saying this.
I love Olivier as a character even more now knowing his ideals, and personality more. Things he wants to accomplish.
I started this franchise with COLD STEEL; it's a pity that a lot of references are lost...
Personally, I think it's still fun going back and being like ooooo that's what happened, or that's why this is like this. I don't know if I would've burned through Trails in the Sky FC and SC like I did if I'd started with them. Though, granted, I played FC on hard so it was a slow burn. I don't know. I think for me I needed Cold Steel to get me introduced. Now I'm just as excited to learn the rest of the story before I get my hands on CS3.
What references are lost? I started with Cold Steel as well and I didn't notice anything lost. Olivert still hates Osborne and wants him out of the country
@@gamerprince-tl5hg the scene here shows his final proof that Osbore is working togetherwith Ouborus. Before these Steam-powered Tanks "conviniently" showed up it was just an assumption, but these events were the final, solid proof for Olivier that he must go.
@@gamerprince-tl5hg There are a lot of minor references to previous games in Cold Steel 1 and 2 like mentioning Estelle and Joshua or some events in Liberl and Crossbell. This is what makes these games so good.
Olivierr! That got us good! Always known he is not as simple as he acted to be, but then never would've guessed this too! This explains his sharp wit and quick insights..
Yeah, Schera suspected him of being a secret Erabonian agent since FC but I thought he was just a minor noble (e.g. a knight) looking to increase the power of his house by recruiting Cassius.
Probably the most powerful moment in the game.
I wish I re-watched this part before I played Trails of Cold Steel I and II... I completely forgot that chancellor Osborne was mentioned in Trails in the Sky SC!
And he appeared in Trails of Sky 3rd in a side quest event. :)
*spoilers
He was literally a man with his power rising since Trails in the Sky, and was considered a threat, even though he started out as being mentioned by name only in-game..
.. Trails in the Sky/Zero/Azure/Cold Steel literally considered Chancellor Osborne as the REAL enemy.. what with everything connected to what was happening in COLD STEEL III and IV regarding the curse.
Pretty sure he was mentioned in the first game too.
Love it when the hollow music starts when they inform erebonia arrived. Really gives you a "oh shit" moment especially with everything that's already going on.
fav scene and ost while the ship is landing..
Man i miss this trails graphics its kinda cute and wholesome especially Estelle sprite and Tita xD
I played Trails of Cold Steel 1 before any of the Trails in the Sky games and I was still blown away when Olivier turned out to be prince Olivert. I never put two and two together 😂
most epic negotiation ever......
The funny thing about the title of this video is that the spoony bard that created this meme was also a prince. It fits perfectly.
I just realized how Kloe said that she is an inexperienced negotiator and she was. Have not Estelle intervened then she would lose and the army will force itself to check on Liberl.
Both Kloe's and Olivier's shining moment
when i first see goofy olivier transform to prince olivert, I like wth, never seen it (i know he is important but not that important)
Czekałem na ten moment kiedy Olivier ujawni kim jest. Joshua już się domyślił. I nie zawiodłem się! :)
Estuve esperando este momento cuando Olivier desvela su identidad! Excellente!
6:55 a little plot hole: The orbal cam shouldn't be working because if the Orbal shutdown happening across Liberl 😁
Probably the same reason why the jaguars were exploding.
It could be, because the camera is no electrical but mechanical. It must work like real world film cameras. The shutter snaps for a fraction of a second, the image gets burn in the quartz. But maybe they wont be able to print it until the reverse the orbal shut down.
It's actually an "old-fashioned" mechanical camera which uses film, not photo-quartz. (This gets mentioned later.)
One of the best scenes in SC
everything is better with the evo voice acting, im happy i waited on playing the series and had the voice acting installed not only for battles, but all of the dialouge as well (even if not matching 100% of it due to having some deviations)
I will probably replay the trails in the sky trillogy and the Crossbell Duology like this when I have the Chance
Wait, are you saying there's a voice patch for this? I never knew.
Seiyuu of Olivier is my fav.
35:28 Cassius showing off his teleportation skills I see...
A lot of Ouroboros enforcers can pull it off, then why not THE Cassius bright of all people.
@@AAhmou he doesn't need to teleport, he is too good for teleportation.
I'm pissed I couldn't get Estelle to A-Rank. Pretty sure I did every optional job in the game (unless I missed some hidden ones). There were times where I missed out on BP through answer choices and actions but I was sure I was gonna make it to A anyway :(
You can only miss like...2 BP total out of like 280 or something along those lines it's ridiculous. I was literally 1 BP away
@@YhokoCaeda I haven't played CS4 yet but Estelle is canonically B-rank so you gotta work really hard to push her beyond that, when it comes to power levels they've always portrayed Joshua (in cutscenes) as being stronger and he's like an A tier fighter at best which means that she's probably B+ tier. Estelle's somewhere between Anelace and Joshua/Zin in terms of strength.
@@hahmann i believe Joshua already a S tier fighter....
He defeat muller, a prince bodyguard... Iirc
Im really curious about Olivert reaction regarding your current rank. I would like to see what he says when you're like still C/D/E rank from skipping all optional bracer quests.
On my first playthrough I got C rank (did ~half the quests) and Olivier says that Estelle is “a bracer of some renown” but doesn’t ask to confirm her rank
I’m curious if it changes for the + and - versions of the ranks but I don’t want to play through the whole game over and over for it 😭
AW YEAAAAAAAH A-RANK BETCHHHHH
At 25:12
I thought the max rank for Estelle in this game is B-rank. How can she outrank Agate and Schera without solving a major national crisis and it being confirmed by the guild? Besides, all official sources I checked confirmed her, Joshua and Anelace to be B-ranked.
That's a good question. Why would Falcom let her become A-ranked in the game if she's B-ranked in canon? You'd think they could just patch the game so that ranks go from H to B instead.
I'm guessing she met the BP requirement for A-rank, but not other requirements like the ones you mentioned. Maybe Elnan intentionally did her paperwork wrong at 9:10 so that she would mistakenly believe she was A-ranked, thus giving her a much-needed morale boost for the endgame. Or maybe he jumped the gun and wrongly assumed the higher ups would approve her promotion. I think the most likely explanation is that the BP based ranks are unofficial and only denote the maximum rank a Bracer can obtain during their next review, but the reviewers can choose a lower official rank based on other factors.
Pretty much, plus the canon ranks are determined by secondary sources. Falcom has actually never stated the Liberl bracers ranks in-game after SC, but they did state every single Liberl Bracer's rank in an article for Dengeki. Joshua,Estelle, Anelace, Agate and Scherazard were all raised to B-rank due to their contributions at stopping the Society of Ouroboros. They also officially state Kurt as the only active A-rank bracer in Liberl. I kinda feel bad for Carna and Grant since they were kind of ignored, only Anelace and Kurt got credit.
To get A rank you need to complete 91 jobs(side-quests)... NOPE. FUCK THAT, NO ONE HAS TIME FOR THAT.
She could be simply bluffing.
@@dimitrisc She is bluffing. She's buying time given when she said that the next working orbal communication would be a couple of selge away. I'm playing Zero no Kiseki and the branch know their accomplishments and has a promising potential but they obviously nowhere near the caliber of the bracers there given that all who are there during the arc were B and A ranks.
i really should replayed sora 1 2..
i played those long ago just for the gameplay not story, i cant understand most politics back then, even right now i barely understand what actually happening
Estelle is A rank in this???
Are you talking about the playthrough in this video?
Yes, in 9:07 she raised to A rank. Only possible if you done every single bracer guild quests, including hidden ones, and doing extra stuff/picking the right choices for the extra BP which gives you a total maximum of 382 points where you need at least 380 to reach A rank. but I guess you already knew about it already.
@@dreamEnd Isn't Estelle canonically B rank in CS4?
@@Kernviter Yeah she's canonically B. SC lets you become A rank for some reason, maybe it's some sort of fanservice for completionist, or they just retconned it in CS for plot purposes
Estelle solve an entire crisis of a country and including countless quest to considered B rank.
It makes me thinking just what kind of achivement cassius did to reach S rank.
@@riofernando9414 What Cassius did to gain S rank is explained in the Crossbell arc
Bruh the thumbnail is such a spoiler. Glad i got there before i saw this recommendation. I would have been so pissed off...