Ok so some people missed the point of this video ❤ I never said old plugins are not good. On the contrary. I also miss some old VST2 plugins (PCM Lexicon and Virtual Guitarist are just two examples)! But unlike an old Moog or Juno hardware synth that will keep working indefinitely as long as you can service it, a plugin (in time) will require a: -Working License (if you have one 😂) -legacy DAW -LegacyOS -old PC than can run the above and works If you can dedicate an old machine to run legacy plugins for the next 10-15 years, then all good🎉- but most users won’t be able to do this and will end up not being able to open their projects unless they bounce multitracks. Which is EXACTLY what I suggest if you want to use old school plugins :) This was the point of the video. Not to diss old amazing plugins. Also, if you're interested to see just one of the HUGE benefits of VST3 check out this video: th-cam.com/video/4YCwfNMkXOU/w-d-xo.html I am glad to see how passionate we all are about plugins though ❤❤❤
It's kinda the same as having an old Atari ST sitting in the corner just because everyone had it in the old days and the midi clock was superior to a Windows 3.11 midi clock. it's nearly 4 decades ago .. move on .. lol. I also loved my Atari ST and Pro 24 😘 I also greatly respect people like Esben Kraft that lives in the 80's still or at least tries to stay old school.There definitely is magic about how things was done back then.
@@oriomenoni7651 yes. I run a bit of and older version of Cubase on an older computer and it still does more than I want it to do. Why would I continue to pay money for something that’s “bigger and better”?
still using 32bit VSTs using JBridger 😀 "Accuracy, Side-chaining, lousy programming" etc. is not an argument to me. It's the sound that matters which is coming out in the end.
@@mesqaentertainment Ya there was a good reason for Steinberg to drop 32bit support. I remember crying about not being able to use VB3 anymore tho untill the new version came .. took them long enough. Lucky I still have my Mojo61 🥰
forget about vst, CLAP should be the future of plugins tbh. however i still use vst both 32 and 64 bit using jbridge, so many epic plugins that are not being remade today
The real reason VST2 is still relevant is that VST3 made a mess of MIDI events. You simply can’t make a full featured editor for an external synth/rack unit with a midi protocol using VST3 because Steinberg removed the APIs and are not interested in midi anymore.
Beyond this, there's also the licensing garbage that Steinberg may potentially enforce in future (which is why VST2 is gone in the first place). This sort of stuff is what led Urs Heckmann and Bitwig to create the CLAP format in the first place.
That's the main reason I hear for people staying with VST2: sample accurate midi timing is not possible with VST3 due to how some buffers work. It's all geared towards DAW automation, but accurate MIDI control suffered.
I like vst2.. it is more analog and retro.. it works for synthwave... maybe you should tell your steinberg boss to get bac to the basixs and suppport vst2.4 protocol that just works.. vst3 is rubbish and unstable
From Steve Duda at Xfer (2022): "I'm not sure about Cthulhu, due to VST3 lacking proper MIDI out handling. Eveything else is being actively worked on, but there is a good window of time ahead, stability is of course important and Steinberg will probably honor the 24 months ahead before dropping VST2 from their products. "It really is a bizarre situation to remove something time-tested and working, VST3 offers no clear technical benefit (the touted user-facing improvements such as sample-accurate automation are not even implemented in virtually all VST3 plugins, and could have been extended to VST2). Fortunately for most users other than Steinberg users, VST2 support should be around for a long time."
Yeah, Serum actually was one of the plugins that took ages to be updated to VST3 (and was for ages in beta). I don’t know why that is - as a user I know that super complex plugins are already in VST3 and work flawlessly 🤷♂️ Here’s an excellent article from Audio modelling which suggests otherwise. And these guys know how to make plugins for sure :) kb.audiomodeling.com/en/c/grow-your-knowledge/d/what-is-vst-whats-the-difference-between-vst-vst2-and-vst3/
Seeing those old VST 1 plugins brought tears to my eyes. If i could i would still use my favorite Steinberg vst 1 multiband comoressor plugin. It could comoress, expand, auto eq, soft clip, limit, gate and highpass with 4 simple lines in a square box. Oh yes and add multiple thresholds and ratios per band. I used it to get great presence auto eq vo. It made it all the way to 2011.
Nothing is forced. If you’re a professional you’re probably already using plugins that are properly supported. And VST3 has been around for over 15 years. I wouldn’t call this forced in any way in any universe :)
@@DomSigalas I disagree. Further, Steinberg has recently forced users to upgrade to their new licensing system (or risk losing an affordable upgrade path). Yes, I am a professional and have earned my living from music production for many years. Many of my plugins are still supported, but some are not. With respect, your opinion on this matter could easily be biased by your professional relationship with Steinberg, IMHO.
@@AdamBondAudio this is not biased- I’ve been saying this since VST3 came out and had zero contacts or relationships with Steinberg. I have been asking plugin companies for VST3 versions since the first years that VST3 emerged. Of course you don’t know me in-person and I cannot convince you. It’s very easy to complain about Steinberg but they didn’t force any customer or developer to switch to VST3 when it was released 16 years ago. Apple would have/did Avid would have/did. So yes you have every right to complain and I will stand behind my opinion that it’s time to move on if you want to future proof your projects as a professional. I had unpopular opinions since the times of FireWire when people were upset when I was saying that they shouldn’t bother with FW anymore and go USB. Many people were outraged but there was no TH-cam so… Years later and history proved me right. Technology gets updated. 16 years is long enough- that’s my opinion - even if we want it or not we cannot stop progress. Thank you for the respectful conversation ❤️
@@DomSigalas Thank you for your considered and respectful reply - to be fair you raise some valid points! 🙂 I still don't like software I have purchased to be made obsolete though so perhaps we can agree to differ on that point...! 😄😉 Peace ❤️
@@AdamBondAudio I don’t like it either. But we do not live in a perfect world. It’s actually one of the reasons I use so much hardware in my studio too! ❤️
It's not the users that need to hear this, by and large. It's the developers. I'm looking at you Black Rooster! Black Rooster a company that only has VST 2 plugins that was founded AFTER VST2 was retired. You can't make this stuff up. One thing I really hate seeing is that developers quite often give VST 3 plugins a slightly different name to the VST 2 counterpart. Sometimes it's a typo, sometimes it seems intentional. It's ALWAYS aggravating! Cubase will pickup a VST 3 of an old mix with only VST 2 plugins if the VST 3 exists, and has the same name. When developers adhere to standards (they can make their own!) this all works seamlessly - but instead they needlessly break things.
"One thing I really hate seeing is that developers quite often give VST 3 plugins a slightly different name to the VST 2 counterpart" Never saw that. On which plugin for example ?
I know some more vendors who deliberately chose to offer VST 2 plugins instead of VST 3 because of several limitations VST 3 introduced, especially when it comes to MIDI handling.
There's one information you were missing on the developer rant about them being slow to adapt: at some point, Steinberg did not offer VST2 licenses anymore, so any new plugin had to be using VST3. This forced the hands of many developers to move towards VST3 and Steinberg were really annoyed that the new standard did not catch on automatically.
@@ghfjfghjasdfasdfhave the “balls” to respond to what exactly? 🤣 Aren’t 16 years long enough? 😁 I don’t know what the source is about the licenses, but do you know any other companies that have a new format and keep supporting an old one for so long? Look at ProTools and RTAS. Did they ask permission from anyone? Nope! Steinberg was quite generous with their support of 2.4- if they did it the Apple way, VST2.4 would be history in less than a year. I don’t see developers moaning about Apple changing things on every OS (well, they do actually 🤣 ) But they just get down to work and support their plugins. We were not entitled to VST2.4 being supported for so many years after VST3 was an option. That’s my own 100% personal opinion. Let’s celebrate the nice things a company does instead of forcing things down our necks. It’s 2024 and we can still use VST2. :)
JBRIDGE is the answer to this topic. Simply use it to run 32bit VST2 vintage plugins in your modern and up-to-date 64bit daw. I'm still using Steinberg's Magneto to this day! Works like a breeze and if set up correctly it's also light on the CPU... So no need to "move on", just to dig deeper and stick to our favourite effects with the help of some useful programs. 😊
I stopped using my Powercore 6000 and my Liquid Mix years ago due to Steinberg no longer supporting 32-bit plugins, and the producers of said HW stopped supporting them. JBridge hasn't worked well up to this point, but I've discovered that Reaper can still run that hardware and those plugins. 🥰
@@mvqx2209 still is hehe. So is Steinberg/Houpert Multiband...still king of compressors...by a long way. I have to run SX as a plugin to use it but not many know the deal
PS> I managed to get my Liquid Mix working again. It only took a suggestion from the programmer of JBridge and one check mark in the settings. To think I could have still been using this for all the years it spent s a door stop. The Powercore is a different matter though, its drivers won't install under Windows 10. They will work if you install it under windows 7 and then upgrade to '10'. Not worth the effort TBH.
@@LuvHrtZ I had my powercore working no probs/w10/Jbridge...I just loved the VSS* but now its a plugin; I did new daw hardware and only 2 slots capable of those old boards and had 2 UAD and 1 powercore :-(
@@iam-music Yeah but the drivers don't install under W10, but you have to install it on W7 and upgrade to W10. I've got the native plugz too. The PC6000 plugs aren't quite up there these days.
The industry doesn't improve almost anything, it just adds products and products so that there is non-stop consumption, just profit, this becomes a loop, for years I haven't been able to see the solution in the audio, we have to spend loads of money to keep changing solutions that These are problems, without bugs and increasingly heavier, bigger and more expensive, making us slaves to consumption. updating all the time is a lack of emotional and financial control, we have to make music, create more and consume less, you can make music without having to get into this meaningless routine, the opinion and the videos are cooler, from here in Brazil I follow your content Always, health and prosperity to the entire community
I completely disagree! I will continue using VST2 and 32-bit VSTs with jBridge for as long as I can-actually, forever-for many of the reasons you mentioned, and then some. To be honest, I never had much respect for your opinion, but now I’ve lost whatever little respect I had left. You can’t just tell people to STOP using something that works perfectly fine and can easily coexist with newer technology. The supposed advantages, like sample-accurate automation, aren’t even relevant to everyone. In the video, you say "in my humble opinion," which is completely at odds with the clickbait "STOP using" title. And your comment about abandoning VST2 plug-ins 6-7 years ago because a developer didn’t release a VST3 version? That just shows you don’t value your pre-6 years compositions, and you’ve accepted the fact that you can’t open them again. I, on the other hand, still use Roland VSTis in VST2.4 format. The 3.7 version isn’t compatible with any previous projects, meaning I can’t use the VST3 D-50 in older compositions. There’s no way in hell I’m spending hours reprogramming everything to VST3, only to do it again when VST4 inevitably drops. By the way, you still keep analog gear in your studio, right? Why? By your ridiculous logic, you should ditch them immediately and STOP using them. And what’s next? Should people throw out their rare records because they’re "outdated" too?
yeah "in my humble opinion" / "STOP USING" is a nice 2024 example of an amalgam of ragebait, clickbait, entitlement, faux-youtube production advice, a bit of patronizing and to top it off hidden sponsored content :') i get his point that vst2 is getting old but who cares? what's the motivation to peptalk people into ditching software they've paid for and projects they've worked on?
If it ain't broke don't fix it is my philosophy. If it works for you, great. If it doesn't, well then maybe upgrade. There is a place for both the techs to co-exist. Just bcz something new and shiny exists doesn't diminish the value of the older tech. This "elitist douche" mentality is what's gonna get in the way of my creativity coz honestly I run out of creativity way sooner than the capabilities of my "older tech". Again to each their own. Peace ✌🏻
the "developers have had time to update it" and "you can find something similar" arguments ignore all of the plugins just made by individuals who made a one off creative thing to suit their particular needs and shared for free, or the companies who did make it for profit but don't exist anymore to update it. the user shouldn't lose functionality because the maker is no longer around. also, dismissing the idea that there's anything special or unique about any plugin if it can just eventually be replaced. like, do you ask why anyone would hang on to classic hardware synth when they could just get a modern clone instead?
Your arguments are invalid. Shame on the individuals! They have had 16th years to update. If you are are developer you have to be up-to-date otherwise you will lose money and reputation.
@@QuantecHP there’s Quadrafuzz II at the moment and it’s a mind blowing plugin that people still sleep on :) trust me you will never go back to Quadrafuzz 1 :)
@@QuantecHPif you’ve found the sweet spot with your setup then this is fine. But it’s not going to work forever guaranteed. I know many hardstyle producers that have switched to QF2 and Distroyer or even other plugins altogether. And at what cost? We’re talking about a 32but plugin that requires jBridge to run- in my experience: crashes galore 😅 But if it works for you and it’s a vital part of your sound I totally understand you want to stick with it for as long as physically possible ❤
I have them with the big printer port dongle. I also have SX3 and Cubase 5. I was so quick on them with the keyboard shortcuts and hot keys. Hardly ever had to use the mouse. I really miss Windows XP man.
Synths without MIDI still work :) The FM7 won’t work at some point sadly :( You will need to keep an old computer with an old OS and old DAW to run it :(
@@oriomenoni7651yes, but if you want to make sure your projects will still open at least bounce- don’t wait until it’s too late. I’ve done this in the past and it’s not a nice experience . I was the one warning people about FireWire dying some 12,years ago- back then everyone was saying that I had no clue- where is FireWire now? It’s not bad to plan ahead 😊
@@annother3350I would be more than happy if there were (stable) emulators of old school plugins. I am so nostalgic about them (it took me ages to gather photos of all the plugins I used to use that I show on this video) ❤️
Doing this video you put me inside a pleasant time machine. Of days of old but warm, more creative and not so stressful! Missed those snapshots of the old steinberg DAW. As always I really like your content!
VST2s are why I keep Ableton 12 on my machine, because THEY figured out how to keep 2s AND 3s alive and well. While the inventors of the VST couldn't or wouldn't. Long live the VST2 DubTurbo DrumTROOP in my studio!
@@synthplayer1563 I don’t promote anything. I just state the facts. This is a protocol that has been around for over 15 years - doesn’t need me to promote it. About spikes: I would check with the developer first before going to Steinberg. None of the plugins I use (and I use hundreds) exhibits spikes. Are you sure you don’t experience DPC spikes?
Agree with the main point here and am also trying to phase out all vst 2.4 plugins for compatibility and simplicity of life purposes. Unfortunately there are just very few companies that care about this type of long term compatibility. Companies will go out of business, new formats will likely come and go, formats for project files will change, new versions of plugins will be incompatible with projects using old versions OR they will be compatible but they won't sound exactly the same as the older versions did... The best solutions I've found is to keep my old computers around for legacy projects and just get in the habit of freezing or committing to audio anything that I'm done tweaking, so that when I open old projects, it's mostly just audio and very few plugins.
I got you Brother. I was holding so tight to the Edirol Orchestra (which btw you have shown on 1:34 and my heart skipped a beat cause of nostalgia) when I was still using FLStudio. Thing was crashing every 30mins, but sounded great. Also I had to set all the instruments manually after each time I have opened a project (plugin loaded with the default flute sound). When I think about it now it's kinda funny, but I did manage to somehow finish stuff with it. After I have decided that I need to change to Cubase (as it was simply better for things I do) I have learned that I can't use Edirol Orchestral anymore and I was devastated. Few weeks passed, I have looked around and invested some money in EastWest symphonic plugins and I've never looked back since. My first rule since has been: 'new is always better'. True story.
Delay Lama was made in the school I attended (pretty much as a joke, and a proof of concept).. As was Altiverb (which was rather more serious)... Audioease was actually started by fellow students who were fascinated by convolution/impulse thingies.. They were also traveling everywhere to record impulses of concert halls that no longer exist today... Like the old Vredenburg in Utrecht (which wasn't all that much travel, since the company is based in Utrecht).. But they went around the world to collect impulses of iconic venues...
Using Cubase13 and agree with what Dom is saying. But with a silent smile I love the way my old plugs (include DelayLama) still work with C13 (not using JBRIDGE). I like having all this new features etc. coming from VST3 but every now an then I'm in love with those old sounds. I'm not a pro and not a sound-designer. Like to use presets and customise them a bit. Sometimes those easy old ones are still great and still there and I don't have to waste time to find an alternative.
Well said Dom. I have nothing against VST2 and used them happily for many years! But I had far more problems deciding whether, when, if, or how to switch from 32-bit to 64-bit plugins, careless of whether they were VST2 or VST3. There were so many factors and complications involved! Now i try to keep it simple by using Only 64-bit plugins and almost all of which are VST3 👌🏻
Very good video, thanks Dom ! - Don't wait : save your project as audio files and move on ! - For my first orchestral project ' POUR UN DOLLAR DE MOIN ', I only used Cubase's EQ for the instruments. - There are many ways to create a unique sound without plugins.
I replaced all my plugins when I switched to Apple Silicone Mac. Interestingly enough, I ended up using way more stock Cubase effects. I can understand that some people really like certain old plugins, but for me it's not worth the hassle of trying to make them work.
Thanks for this video. My first software synth was included on Aegis Sonix (1987) which came with my second hand Amiga in the beginning of the 90s. The machine also came with an 8bit audio sampler. I used Stereo Master to apply real time effects on my voice. Midi timing was rather good but not as good as on my friends ST. Both were better than a lot of midi timjng that I have experienced on some modern pc's in the home studios of friends (and my own). I (almost) never experienced these problems with older pc's, even Amiga's. Something
Vst3 is old and lacking itself. There's no way for the plugins to talk to each other with it, which is why Sonible Smart EQ has to use a networking protocol. The industry really needs to fix this, because plugins communicating with each other properly really opens up doors, especially with all this neural stuff now.
Great one! I would also like to add that VST2 to VST3 upgrade is automatic if the developer uses: "the state persistence is described in the FAQ section in the documentation. A plug-in has to set the VST3 parameter ID to the index of the VST2 parameter when updated to VST3. Otherwise automation is not compatible (Arne_Scheffler via Steinberg forums)" I was blown away to learn that remapping your parameters to the VST3 spec could be automatic to the end user. In theory, this could mean no older broken projects.
I am new to all this, so thanks for explaining what VST is! I use Reaper 7 and found out that when it runs a VST2 plugin, the FX plug-in window can be scaled and scrolled if needed. The same plugin as a VST3 doesn't do this. So, part of the display is off screen! I need a big display size because of my poor eyesight. VST2 plugins have an advantage for me that I miss on VST3 versions. Thanks for your instructive and informative videos! I watch often!
I remember most of those plugins, thanks for the unexpected nostalgia trip. I think the original Quadrafuzz is the one I miss the most - I still can’t seem to find a suitable replacement. In any case, 25-year Cubase veteran here, but I still learn something new every time I watch your vids! Thanks Dom!
I really just wish Cubase would have a good plugin sandbox that will not crash your whole project even with VST3 plugins that have issues. Just because it's VST3 does not guarantee its going to work good.
Hi Dom. I don't see the problem with having to choose to update or not. Ableton Live 10 lets me have both 2.4 AND 3. And as I will always say. If I cant make a hit using what I have, then no amount of new and exciting plugins will make one bit of difference.
This means that there is no Absynth anymore... the problem is that for some plugins you can hardly find a newer/better version. Same goes for some ArtsAcoustic products (and why many people still use them). The best way is to limit the use of VST2 plugins as much as possible. If you still have maybe 1-2 plugins that you can't easily replace, you'll just have to bite the bullet. I also still use Absynth 5 under Apple Silicon with the help of Metasynth. It works without any problems, even if I would of course prefer a VST3 version... but the world isn't perfect.
When i upgraded from cubase 7 to 13 i found out about the vst2 problem. I decided to go with vst3 only, after fighting to include vst2 and having massive performance problems. Now use stock cubase wherever possible and vst3 only for remaining plugins
Great video and people have to realize time marches on and you have to change. Also so tried of them complaining about the DAW not being compatible with old plugins when it the plugin company's responsibility to update their plugin. My like has been music biz for about half and computers for the other half and at point both at same time. People don't have clue to the cost in time and money to create and especially maintain software. Worse they think all updates should be free. A company can't stay in business selling you a piece of software once and then giving away free updates for next ten, twenty years. So again great video.
Hey Dom, thanks for the great insight! Overall, it does make a lot of sense, but let me share with you my personal experience specifically with Steinberg. A long time ago, Steinberg released two incredible plugins: Virtual Guitarist 2 and Virtual Bassist. I've tried many "similar" VST instruments over the last couple decades, but nothing gets even close to these two. NI Complete libraries sound great, but programming custom riffs like you can do in VG is not an option. I had no choice but to move from Mac to Windows, where, thanks to jBridge, I still can use the Steinberg plugins in Cubase, but I would much rather have Steinberg adapt the amazing instruments to the new reality, so that I wouldn't have to use 3rd party "crotches". Instead, Steinberg simply took these amazing instruments out of circulation. Another example: four beautiful synths (Mystic, Prologue, Specter, LoopMash) simply vanished after upgrading from C11 to C12/13. Again, these are native stock Steinberg plugins. Was it really that difficult to adapt them to the new DAW? But here's the major issue: I own a phenomenal keyboard - Yamaha Motif XS8. One of the main reasons I bought it was that it was specifically designed to work as multichannel Firewire audio interface in conjunction with Cubase. The keyboard came with a whole bunch of dedicated software to support this integration: drivers, Cubase expansions, special templates, and a VST Editor for Motif, to name a few. An average virtual synth may cost a few hundred bucks. It's a lot of money, but if it is discontinued, you clench your teeth and move on. This beast, on the other hand, is a hardware synth that cost me a few thousand. It was a major investment on my part, and I was hoping that it would become the centerpiece of my studio for many ears to come. Indeed, it worked fabulously well until one day everything just ended. The only option, again, was to switch to Windows, which still supports Firewire and older plugins. By the way, a free DAW called Cakewalk has absolutely no problem opening even the most outdated plugins like Edirol Orchestral, side by side with the most current VST3 plugins. Why Steinberg couldn't do for a paying customer what Bandlab is doing for everyone out there is beyond me. Again, I think you're right in that life goes on, and nothing lasts forever, so at the end of the day, I guess, I'll have to make my peace with the harsh reality. Thank you for the great content!
Great stuff. It’s really great seeing those old screenshots. I was born in 1980, there was a dirty period in pc software during the 90s where graphics design was just utterly horrendous . Look at the texture background 😂 as for moving on, jumped all in when Apple silicon was released and thankfully steinberg were really quick in getting rid of the dongle and going native. It’s been a really good transition actually. Also I’ve found perfect guitar tone, only to throw it away and upgrade to a new axe fx starting the journey all over again. Next thing we need to discontinue is Midi 1.0
I honestly rather have a VST3 plugins. They run with more stability on my PC. I used to want to load some old VST2 plugins that i used to have back when i was using FL Studio(for music), but now that i am on Nuendo i simply do not want them and don't feel the need nor have the time to use some bridging software and hopefully get it to work, when as you said there are many plugins nowadays that can replicate the same thing and give even more options. Also lots of it come to(as you also said), nostalgia because those memories we have are pretty much, golden.
Agree 100%. If a company has not updated their plugins to VST3 after all these years, they probably never will. VST 2 is dead, as it should be. The VST3 protocol is more efficient and versatile. Time to ditch the horse and buggy and start driving a car! (or use public transportation, of course...😊)
Totally agree. I can sympathize a bit with the folks that have their favorite plug ins that they won't be able to use anymore. But like you said, this has been a LONG time coming. Just like the developers have had plenty of time to transition, so to have the end users. Personally, it doesn't bother me all that much as I've been doing this a long time now and lots of software has just stopped being supported and eventually, you're forced to move on. It's just how software works. And largely I would say 75% of the time or more, I'm just using the Plug Ins or effects that are included with the DAW I'm using. Especially with Nuendo but I did the same when I was mainly a Samplitude user or Cakewalk/Sonar and also the old Sonic Foundry/Sony/Magix software like Sound Forge, Vegas, and Acid. Same with Tracktion/Waveform, which I still keep current even if I use it far less than I used to. One small nit picky thing. Steinberg came out with VST that was kind of the first protocol that allowed for anyone to create a plug in that could be used in any DAW that implemented the technology. Obviously, each DAW had their own plug ins so to speak before that. It was just processing that only applied to that one particular app and if you didn't like the EQ in product X, your only choice was to use a different DAW. Also I think it's worth noting that Microsoft came out with Direct X around the same time as VST, maybe even before Steinberg VST. And it also had the ability to have plug ins that any DAW could share. (even though Direct X was mostly about video game technology) I think in this case VST was the better protocol and unlike Beta vs VHS, we are better off for it. Especially since MS pretty much dropped the ball on Direct X eventually. But I had several DAWs that used Direct X plug ins before I ever got into VST Plug Ins. And many of them were quite good. But this is like so many things in our industry. Competing protocols and eventually someone becomes the defacto standard. And everyone forgets how much of a pain in the ass it used to be. Or they are too young to even remember and too lazy to study the history. :-)
I agree and support what you say to100% Dom. That because of Apples M1 and M+ strategie ... it make no sense longer to use VST2 and more worst ... 16BIT plugins in any case. However it is, in this case, absolut not acceptable that some plugin developers/seller still not move there plugins to VST3 and nativ Mx support. On Apple sometime you have to oportunity to use the "apple plugin standard" but if there also not native compiled to be used with Mx make it also no sense. I for myself stopped to buy plugins for the moment. And that also because a bit of your input (thank you) showing the included plugins from DAWs Steinberg Cubase ... I started to use them more and more and have to say most of the work can be done easy with them. And for the other stuff mostly there is anyway a VST3 Nativ version available.
It's an expensive hobby (obviously for those of us who don't work with this), and one thing I can tell you is that not all of us can pay several hundred dollars for plugins every time there is a big update, some of us have to think twice before invest in a good plugin, and if in the future we no longer have access to it, it's a problem. Thanks for the video anyway, I've learned a couple of things. 👍
The old NI Pro-53 and FM7 vsts are still some of my favorite software instruments. And they barely dent a modern cpu. I wish Native Instruments would sell them again with resizable interfaces.
As a Reason user from V4, I'm still just grateful to be able to use vst's. VST2 hasn't ever caused me issues, that I'm aware of. Reason even dragged their feet on allowing VST3 after users screaming for it. Having read quite a few of the comments here, I'm happy I have VST2 as an option. It works fine for me, and potentially has effects that are baked into my style and workflow now.
I've used the first time VSTs in the year 2000 in Cubasis VST 2.0 & later Cubase VST 32. I loved the first NEON synth from Steinberg and the Universal Sound Module. In 2016 then started WinXP in Mac-VirtualBox together with this old Cubasis 2.0. And 😅 then started to sample the Sounds from this old VSTs threw a midi bridge on a Mac in Logic Pro. Also the response sound for the Ambience VST & the HallPlugin in Cubasis. Then reused them in the Logic Sampler (before EXS24) and the Space Designer. Also loved CamelSpace, Vanguance Synth, Crayon Filter and many more I forgot...
6:42 This is the Best reverb I know! I just installed the TC Reverb from 1996 the day before yesterday (my dad had it laying around luckily, I'm just 20 lol), and I LOVE it! Also, oddly enough, Xpand!2, a VST 2.4 Plugin which I have, has oddly enough the ability to side chain, weird…
OMG! Remember how stoked we were with Neon or Re-Birth! Those were the crazy days. ReCycle! ASIO. Re-Wire. Serial port to the Midi Time piece! Ah......those were the days. Terrible, but exciting! Charlie was part of the original Midi spec, so deep respect for Mr. Steinberg! Cubase user since the Atari, with a midi port ON the key board. Come on....high tech. Notator? Blah! Haha.
I regret that many companies left aside great sounds, hypersonic 1 and 2 had beautiful tones fm7, b4 NI and others had beautiful sounds that today have become just memories, if companies took these tones to current projects perhaps it would make sense to purchase new packages, but in reality what happens is an attempt to create new timbres that are just copies of the old ones, an example of this is the 808 timbres used in the rap industry anyway... excellent video, good opinion, these debates generate growth.
VST was the first universal plug-in standard for DAWs. Beforehand plug-ins were around such as the TDM standard for DAWs like ProTools. 3rd parties like Waves made ProTools plug-ins the same way they make AAX plug-ins for ProTools now. But they had to run on propeietary DSP cards. CPUs weren't up to the task for any reasonable amount of plug-ins. Even with hardware DSP farms, the numbers of effects that could be run simultaneously were in the handfuls. The limit was 12 mono tracks (3 x 442 intetfaces) in 1994, running ProTools II on a NuBus expansion chassis, connected to a Mac Quadra 650.
Good video! Now I can just refer to your video instead of repeating myself 😅 The only part you did not discuss is that a lot of people who refuse to update and say “I want to retain my current sound” are using cracked software and cannot update because of this. They developed an excuse not to buy software. Not everyone, but you know who you are! 😌
I can see both sides of this discussion and i feel that the companies should update there plugins so that they work on newer software. They could just release it with a very small fee like £10.00 or so. I just wish they would do it on all older plugins but hey there is always work arounds i guess. Peace and love 🙏🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🌅
For me, and I stress "for me". Vst2 to vst 3 has been a nightmare. From Cubase 11 to 13 things have been going worse for me. I don't know if it's Steinberg or the other companies using vst3. Sadly it has not worked for any of my "stuff". I've been fobbed off by Steinberg saying it's the plugin manufacturers fault, the plugin manufacturers saying it's not their fault to, "maybe it's machine specific to me". Either way it's not been a good experience. My machine, and Cubase worked fine with 2.4. Here's hoping for a consistent future. And not change for the sake of change.
Thank you for sharing your experience! I have to agree on this though: 99% of the times my Cubase crashes is due to a dodgy plugin. I have stopped using plugins altogether because they were not stable. No DAW has control over the code a plugin manufacturer writes. I have made a full video on how to report bugs - the no.1 rule is first get rid of any plugins and see if the bug still occurs :)
I recognize them all 😎 Started at the age of 24 (sadly too late), now 58....VST2 or Terratec EWS64 probably caused some ear damage...I already made jokes about Delay Lama...and still considering rebuilding a VST2 install on a 32bits/3GB RAM computer or a 64bits install using JBridge...How I love Steinberg from Day One ❤
I spent a LOT of money on BFD3 libraries over the years and refused to let it go to waste because they waited until 2024 to develop VST3 compatibility. I still have yet to upgrade to the latest version of Cubase, but I chose to wait after hearing reviews of version 13, so I didn't feel to rushed. Maybe by the time BFD3 beta is finished and ready for the public, I'll feel more confident about Cubase 13.
In my opinion, the best feature (besides sidechain) of VST3 is that when there is no signal, the plugin is suspended, meaning no CPU power is used. VST 2XX plugins use CPU performance, even when they are not being used. The Cubase "ASIO Guard" also runs better with VST3 plugins, which in turn means more and better optimized performance. The "ASIO Guard" is probably one of the best features implemented in Cubase and Nuendo.
I am on LMMS, until they have offical solution I will just stay with vst2 not vst3. The problem is the protocal should backward compitable, otherwise why not use clap or other format?
"If you're living in a fairytail where you think this is done by magic, think again." That is so much on point, and not just for conversations about VST. I run into this all the time, where consumers who paid 10 dollars back in 1999 are now complaining that companies stopped updating their product. It's totally unreasonable.
Hi Dom, I am using cubase 13 and the talkback only works for when the Cue option is selected in the Control Room but does not work for the Main outs, is that how it is supposed to be or does it have to do with some setting on my Motu Ultralite Mk3 or I am missing something ? Thanks a lot in advance
@@DomSigalas amazing! Waiting then. I mean native version... I am this to buy UAD signature. But so many strange thoughts.. so I am always trust you. It's the reason why I am asking 🙏
@@DomSigalas That's simple amazing then!! I always check all your videos! You are really great guy! And so professional! Please make more videos! And with UAD plugins please! Now I know that they are great and will purchase UAD Signature Bundle at this Black Friday!
Hypersonic 2 and Komplexer was very good sounding synth for the ancient VST pro synths, I still using with JBridge without any problem, and NOT, I don't wanna replace with actuals toys. Fortunately I don't use Apple scheduled expiration systems, so less problems at all. Thanks.
AKCHTUALLY you'll technically want to be using CLAP plugins if they are available. Disregarding the fact that it's a more open project, both in terms of code and license, it's more performant and more compatible than VST. Even VST3 still has a legacy implementation. I'm not saying it's bad, but it's doomed to go out of fashion sooner or later, as CLAP is better and easier for developers to adopt. For some years starting out now, you'll probably have to juggle VST3 and CLAP alongside one another if you still use Steinberg and legacy software. (In some cases you might even have to keep VST2, as it's the only type supported in, say, OBS.) Luckily though, there are wrappers you can use for these standards, and more are likely to come out. VST3 does the job for the time being. Well, VST2 also does the job, for that matter.
I still use Cubase 8.5 pro does the job for me if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it Still got old plug-ins running lovely with j bridge Just because a new version comes out, doesn’t mean you have to waste your money and buy if you can use what you have 🤔
Dear brother ,when I edit midi channel and I want to see audio channel visualize simultaneously and to know where to put it, let's say I work without a maternal and I want to know exactly where to put the MIDI according to baseline for example how can I see them simultaneously.... Thank you so much 💐🌸🙏🙏🙏🦄
Ok so some people missed the point of this video ❤
I never said old plugins are not good. On the contrary. I also miss some old VST2 plugins (PCM Lexicon and Virtual Guitarist are just two examples)!
But unlike an old Moog or Juno hardware synth that will keep working indefinitely as long as you can service it, a plugin (in time) will require a:
-Working License (if you have one 😂)
-legacy DAW
-LegacyOS
-old PC than can run the above and works
If you can dedicate an old machine to run legacy plugins for the next 10-15 years, then all good🎉- but most users won’t be able to do this and will end up not being able to open their projects unless they bounce multitracks. Which is EXACTLY what I suggest if you want to use old school plugins :)
This was the point of the video. Not to diss old amazing plugins.
Also, if you're interested to see just one of the HUGE benefits of VST3 check out this video: th-cam.com/video/4YCwfNMkXOU/w-d-xo.html
I am glad to see how passionate we all are about plugins though ❤❤❤
It's kinda the same as having an old Atari ST sitting in the corner just because everyone had it in the old days and the midi clock was superior to a Windows 3.11 midi clock. it's nearly 4 decades ago .. move on .. lol.
I also loved my Atari ST and Pro 24 😘 I also greatly respect people like Esben Kraft that lives in the 80's still or at least tries to stay old school.There definitely is magic about how things was done back then.
Dom what is the song callled where you played with the rodes in the retrospective record video? I tried to find it desperately
@@marcusstrymon693 Oh man, I think this was just an improvisation!
@@mrdali67 I do not miss the external Harddrive the size of a sidewalk tile for my Atari Mega STE4 😁
@@compingharry Ya and that Sidewalk tile had a size of 30Mb. I remember carrying both + the SM124 Monitor around for gigs
I am still using some VST2 plugins and have ZERO problems with them.
@@oriomenoni7651 yes. I run a bit of and older version of Cubase on an older computer and it still does more than I want it to do. Why would I continue to pay money for something that’s “bigger and better”?
Yeah. VST3 is 16 years old and they still haven't fixed the MIDI timing issues.
still using 32bit VSTs using JBridger 😀 "Accuracy, Side-chaining, lousy programming" etc. is not an argument to me. It's the sound that matters which is coming out in the end.
Lol I’m guilty , mcdsp v6 and metric halo v3 , never upgraded works fine for me I love these plugins
"It's the sound that matters which is coming out in the end." Yeah this 👌
@@ScoringStageEu yeah some of those old 32 bit plugins don’t exist anymore... JBridge isn’t 100% but still better than totally gone
its all about stability
@@mesqaentertainment Ya there was a good reason for Steinberg to drop 32bit support. I remember crying about not being able to use VB3 anymore tho untill the new version came .. took them long enough. Lucky I still have my Mojo61 🥰
forget about vst, CLAP should be the future of plugins tbh.
however i still use vst both 32 and 64 bit using jbridge, so many epic plugins that are not being remade today
Clap is awesome.
I see CLAP, I install.
I also got the CLAP
Saying move on from the past while wearing a T-120 VHS jacket is nasty work.
😂☠
😂😂😂😂😂
😂😂😂
🤣🤣🤣
Tech and style are two different things
The real reason VST2 is still relevant is that VST3 made a mess of MIDI events. You simply can’t make a full featured editor for an external synth/rack unit with a midi protocol using VST3 because Steinberg removed the APIs and are not interested in midi anymore.
Really???? I did not know that!
Seriously? This is interesting
Beyond this, there's also the licensing garbage that Steinberg may potentially enforce in future (which is why VST2 is gone in the first place).
This sort of stuff is what led Urs Heckmann and Bitwig to create the CLAP format in the first place.
That's the main reason I hear for people staying with VST2: sample accurate midi timing is not possible with VST3 due to how some buffers work. It's all geared towards DAW automation, but accurate MIDI control suffered.
I like vst2.. it is more analog and retro.. it works for synthwave... maybe you should tell your steinberg boss to get bac to the basixs and suppport vst2.4 protocol that just works.. vst3 is rubbish and unstable
From Steve Duda at Xfer (2022): "I'm not sure about Cthulhu, due to VST3 lacking proper MIDI out handling. Eveything else is being actively worked on, but there is a good window of time ahead, stability is of course important and Steinberg will probably honor the 24 months ahead before dropping VST2 from their products.
"It really is a bizarre situation to remove something time-tested and working, VST3 offers no clear technical benefit (the touted user-facing improvements such as sample-accurate automation are not even implemented in virtually all VST3 plugins, and could have been extended to VST2). Fortunately for most users other than Steinberg users, VST2 support should be around for a long time."
Yeah, Serum actually was one of the plugins that took ages to be updated to VST3 (and was for ages in beta). I don’t know why that is - as a user I know that super complex plugins are already in VST3 and work flawlessly 🤷♂️
Here’s an excellent article from Audio modelling which suggests otherwise. And these guys know how to make plugins for sure :)
kb.audiomodeling.com/en/c/grow-your-knowledge/d/what-is-vst-whats-the-difference-between-vst-vst2-and-vst3/
Seeing those old VST 1 plugins brought tears to my eyes.
If i could i would still use my favorite Steinberg vst 1 multiband comoressor plugin. It could comoress, expand, auto eq, soft clip, limit, gate and highpass with 4 simple lines in a square box. Oh yes and add multiple thresholds and ratios per band. I used it to get great presence auto eq vo. It made it all the way to 2011.
I'm sorry but forced obsolescence is rarely a good thing, especially when people have paid good money for plugins.
Nothing is forced.
If you’re a professional you’re probably already using plugins that are properly supported.
And VST3 has been around for over 15 years. I wouldn’t call this forced in any way in any universe :)
@@DomSigalas I disagree. Further, Steinberg has recently forced users to upgrade to their new licensing system (or risk losing an affordable upgrade path). Yes, I am a professional and have earned my living from music production for many years. Many of my plugins are still supported, but some are not. With respect, your opinion on this matter could easily be biased by your professional relationship with Steinberg, IMHO.
@@AdamBondAudio this is not biased- I’ve been saying this since VST3 came out and had zero contacts or relationships with Steinberg. I have been asking plugin companies for VST3 versions since the first years that VST3 emerged.
Of course you don’t know me in-person and I cannot convince you.
It’s very easy to complain about Steinberg but they didn’t force any customer or developer to switch to VST3 when it was released 16 years ago.
Apple would have/did
Avid would have/did.
So yes you have every right to complain and I will stand behind my opinion that it’s time to move on if you want to future proof your projects as a professional.
I had unpopular opinions since the times of FireWire when people were upset when I was saying that they shouldn’t bother with FW anymore and go USB.
Many people were outraged but there was no TH-cam so…
Years later and history proved me right.
Technology gets updated. 16 years is long enough- that’s my opinion - even if we want it or not we cannot stop progress.
Thank you for the respectful conversation ❤️
@@DomSigalas Thank you for your considered and respectful reply - to be fair you raise some valid points! 🙂 I still don't like software I have purchased to be made obsolete though so perhaps we can agree to differ on that point...! 😄😉 Peace ❤️
@@AdamBondAudio I don’t like it either. But we do not live in a perfect world. It’s actually one of the reasons I use so much hardware in my studio too! ❤️
It's not the users that need to hear this, by and large. It's the developers. I'm looking at you Black Rooster! Black Rooster a company that only has VST 2 plugins that was founded AFTER VST2 was retired. You can't make this stuff up.
One thing I really hate seeing is that developers quite often give VST 3 plugins a slightly different name to the VST 2 counterpart. Sometimes it's a typo, sometimes it seems intentional. It's ALWAYS aggravating! Cubase will pickup a VST 3 of an old mix with only VST 2 plugins if the VST 3 exists, and has the same name. When developers adhere to standards (they can make their own!) this all works seamlessly - but instead they needlessly break things.
Couldn't agree more. Simply porting projects from an old machine has become a nightmare because of this 🤮
"One thing I really hate seeing is that developers quite often give VST 3 plugins a slightly different name to the VST 2 counterpart"
Never saw that. On which plugin for example ?
I know some more vendors who deliberately chose to offer VST 2 plugins instead of VST 3 because of several limitations VST 3 introduced, especially when it comes to MIDI handling.
@@SYCHR0N what limitations?
@@SYCHR0N That's a bit odd since one of the reasons VST3 was developed was for better MIDI handling over VST2.
There's one information you were missing on the developer rant about them being slow to adapt: at some point, Steinberg did not offer VST2 licenses anymore, so any new plugin had to be using VST3. This forced the hands of many developers to move towards VST3 and Steinberg were really annoyed that the new standard did not catch on automatically.
@@ghfjfghjasdfasdfhave the “balls” to respond to what exactly? 🤣
Aren’t 16 years long enough? 😁
I don’t know what the source is about the licenses, but do you know any other companies that have a new format and keep supporting an old one for so long? Look at ProTools and RTAS. Did they ask permission from anyone? Nope!
Steinberg was quite generous with their support of 2.4- if they did it the Apple way, VST2.4 would be history in less than a year.
I don’t see developers moaning about Apple changing things on every OS (well, they do actually 🤣 ) But they just get down to work and support their plugins.
We were not entitled to VST2.4 being supported for so many years after VST3 was an option.
That’s my own 100% personal opinion.
Let’s celebrate the nice things a company does instead of forcing things down our necks. It’s 2024 and we can still use VST2. :)
and people even ended up making open source vst2 sdks instead lol
JBRIDGE is the answer to this topic. Simply use it to run 32bit VST2 vintage plugins in your modern and up-to-date 64bit daw. I'm still using Steinberg's Magneto to this day! Works like a breeze and if set up correctly it's also light on the CPU... So no need to "move on", just to dig deeper and stick to our favourite effects with the help of some useful programs. 😊
I stopped using my Powercore 6000 and my Liquid Mix years ago due to Steinberg no longer supporting 32-bit plugins, and the producers of said HW stopped supporting them. JBridge hasn't worked well up to this point, but I've discovered that Reaper can still run that hardware and those plugins. 🥰
Liquid Mix was good back in the day?
@@mvqx2209 still is hehe. So is Steinberg/Houpert Multiband...still king of compressors...by a long way. I have to run SX as a plugin to use it but not many know the deal
PS> I managed to get my Liquid Mix working again. It only took a suggestion from the programmer of JBridge and one check mark in the settings. To think I could have still been using this for all the years it spent s a door stop. The Powercore is a different matter though, its drivers won't install under Windows 10. They will work if you install it under windows 7 and then upgrade to '10'. Not worth the effort TBH.
@@LuvHrtZ I had my powercore working no probs/w10/Jbridge...I just loved the VSS* but now its a plugin; I did new daw hardware and only 2 slots capable of those old boards and had 2 UAD and 1 powercore :-(
@@iam-music Yeah but the drivers don't install under W10, but you have to install it on W7 and upgrade to W10.
I've got the native plugz too. The PC6000 plugs aren't quite up there these days.
The screenshots gave me some serious nostalgia. I also remember in 2008 when VST3 came out people really hated it.
CLAP is the future
So what about classics like the Juno X2 & other classics? Only way to use these in Cubase is by using J-Bridge
get new pluginsd that sound the same or better.
The industry doesn't improve almost anything, it just adds products and products so that there is non-stop consumption, just profit, this becomes a loop, for years I haven't been able to see the solution in the audio, we have to spend loads of money to keep changing solutions that These are problems, without bugs and increasingly heavier, bigger and more expensive, making us slaves to consumption. updating all the time is a lack of emotional and financial control, we have to make music, create more and consume less, you can make music without having to get into this meaningless routine, the opinion and the videos are cooler, from here in Brazil I follow your content Always, health and prosperity to the entire community
I completely disagree! I will continue using VST2 and 32-bit VSTs with jBridge for as long as I can-actually, forever-for many of the reasons you mentioned, and then some.
To be honest, I never had much respect for your opinion, but now I’ve lost whatever little respect I had left. You can’t just tell people to STOP using something that works perfectly fine and can easily coexist with newer technology. The supposed advantages, like sample-accurate automation, aren’t even relevant to everyone.
In the video, you say "in my humble opinion," which is completely at odds with the clickbait "STOP using" title. And your comment about abandoning VST2 plug-ins 6-7 years ago because a developer didn’t release a VST3 version? That just shows you don’t value your pre-6 years compositions, and you’ve accepted the fact that you can’t open them again.
I, on the other hand, still use Roland VSTis in VST2.4 format. The 3.7 version isn’t compatible with any previous projects, meaning I can’t use the VST3 D-50 in older compositions. There’s no way in hell I’m spending hours reprogramming everything to VST3, only to do it again when VST4 inevitably drops.
By the way, you still keep analog gear in your studio, right? Why? By your ridiculous logic, you should ditch them immediately and STOP using them. And what’s next? Should people throw out their rare records because they’re "outdated" too?
yeah "in my humble opinion" / "STOP USING" is a nice 2024 example of an amalgam of ragebait, clickbait, entitlement, faux-youtube production advice, a bit of patronizing and to top it off hidden sponsored content :') i get his point that vst2 is getting old but who cares? what's the motivation to peptalk people into ditching software they've paid for and projects they've worked on?
If it ain't broke don't fix it is my philosophy. If it works for you, great. If it doesn't, well then maybe upgrade. There is a place for both the techs to co-exist. Just bcz something new and shiny exists doesn't diminish the value of the older tech. This "elitist douche" mentality is what's gonna get in the way of my creativity coz honestly I run out of creativity way sooner than the capabilities of my "older tech". Again to each their own. Peace ✌🏻
the "developers have had time to update it" and "you can find something similar" arguments ignore all of the plugins just made by individuals who made a one off creative thing to suit their particular needs and shared for free, or the companies who did make it for profit but don't exist anymore to update it. the user shouldn't lose functionality because the maker is no longer around.
also, dismissing the idea that there's anything special or unique about any plugin if it can just eventually be replaced. like, do you ask why anyone would hang on to classic hardware synth when they could just get a modern clone instead?
Your arguments are invalid.
Shame on the individuals! They have had 16th years to update. If you are are developer you have to be up-to-date otherwise you will lose money and reputation.
@@ronmarek1548 a tool is a tool, no matter if it's updated to modern standards or not. if i want to use a quill and ink to write a book, i'm going to
I just stopped using updated products instead, starting from Windows. I know what I need to run my studio and until it works I stick with it.
some things don’t have a good vst3 brother, best example is the Steinberg quadrafuzz. I need this all the time
@@QuantecHP there’s Quadrafuzz II at the moment and it’s a mind blowing plugin that people still sleep on :) trust me you will never go back to Quadrafuzz 1 :)
Quadrafuzz 2 is on nearly every mix I do. I never experienced the old one but I can’t imagine it was better than the current version.
totally agreed, quadrafuzz v2 isnt just the same...
@@DomSigalas quadrafuzz 2 doesn’t come close especially for psy trance baselines
@@QuantecHPif you’ve found the sweet spot with your setup then this is fine. But it’s not going to work forever guaranteed. I know many hardstyle producers that have switched to QF2 and Distroyer or even other plugins altogether.
And at what cost? We’re talking about a 32but plugin that requires jBridge to run- in my experience: crashes galore 😅
But if it works for you and it’s a vital part of your sound I totally understand you want to stick with it for as long as physically possible ❤
Missing ur intro music in ur recent videos. Your intro music always gives me goosebumps 🔥🔥🔥. Wish you’d break it down for us one day.
I'm still in love with the old Cubase VST 32 5 ❤❤❤
that version was soo good hey
I have them with the big printer port dongle. I also have SX3 and Cubase 5. I was so quick on them with the keyboard shortcuts and hot keys. Hardly ever had to use the mouse. I really miss Windows XP man.
Yeah, the cracked version was way more stable than the original Cubase 12 and 13 😢
"Please stop using synths from the 70s, they dont support midi"!!!
I love that FM7 plugin and reinstalled it recently. FM8 just isnt the same
Synths without MIDI still work :)
The FM7 won’t work at some point sadly :(
You will need to keep an old computer with an old OS and old DAW to run it :(
@@DomSigalas Let's worry about this when that time comes, OK?
@@oriomenoni7651yes, but if you want to make sure your projects will still open at least bounce- don’t wait until it’s too late. I’ve done this in the past and it’s not a nice experience .
I was the one warning people about FireWire dying some 12,years ago- back then everyone was saying that I had no clue- where is FireWire now? It’s not bad to plan ahead 😊
@@DomSigalas Thats what they said about Commodore 64 games but now we have emulators
@@annother3350I would be more than happy if there were (stable) emulators of old school plugins. I am so nostalgic about them (it took me ages to gather photos of all the plugins I used to use that I show on this video) ❤️
Doing this video you put me inside a pleasant time machine. Of days of old but warm, more creative and not so stressful! Missed those snapshots of the old steinberg DAW. As always I really like your content!
Very instructive and clear Dom, thank you 👍
Thank you Joël ❤️
VST2s are why I keep Ableton 12 on my machine, because THEY figured out how to keep 2s AND 3s alive and well.
While the inventors of the VST couldn't or wouldn't. Long live the VST2 DubTurbo DrumTROOP in my studio!
You forgot about DX plugins, that were before VST. Steinberg just made it way more easier.
@@Poccu9IHuH This!! 👍🏾
Before promoting VST3 so strongly, Steinberg should first solve its problems with excessive performance spikes in Cubase.
@@synthplayer1563 I don’t promote anything. I just state the facts.
This is a protocol that has been around for over 15 years - doesn’t need me to promote it.
About spikes: I would check with the developer first before going to Steinberg. None of the plugins I use (and I use hundreds) exhibits spikes. Are you sure you don’t experience DPC spikes?
Agree with the main point here and am also trying to phase out all vst 2.4 plugins for compatibility and simplicity of life purposes. Unfortunately there are just very few companies that care about this type of long term compatibility.
Companies will go out of business, new formats will likely come and go, formats for project files will change, new versions of plugins will be incompatible with projects using old versions OR they will be compatible but they won't sound exactly the same as the older versions did...
The best solutions I've found is to keep my old computers around for legacy projects and just get in the habit of freezing or committing to audio anything that I'm done tweaking, so that when I open old projects, it's mostly just audio and very few plugins.
I got you Brother. I was holding so tight to the Edirol Orchestra (which btw you have shown on 1:34 and my heart skipped a beat cause of nostalgia) when I was still using FLStudio. Thing was crashing every 30mins, but sounded great. Also I had to set all the instruments manually after each time I have opened a project (plugin loaded with the default flute sound). When I think about it now it's kinda funny, but I did manage to somehow finish stuff with it. After I have decided that I need to change to Cubase (as it was simply better for things I do) I have learned that I can't use Edirol Orchestral anymore and I was devastated. Few weeks passed, I have looked around and invested some money in EastWest symphonic plugins and I've never looked back since. My first rule since has been: 'new is always better'. True story.
Delay Lama was made in the school I attended (pretty much as a joke, and a proof of concept).. As was Altiverb (which was rather more serious)... Audioease was actually started by fellow students who were fascinated by convolution/impulse thingies.. They were also traveling everywhere to record impulses of concert halls that no longer exist today... Like the old Vredenburg in Utrecht (which wasn't all that much travel, since the company is based in Utrecht).. But they went around the world to collect impulses of iconic venues...
Using Cubase13 and agree with what Dom is saying. But with a silent smile I love the way my old plugs (include DelayLama) still work with C13 (not using JBRIDGE). I like having all this new features etc. coming from VST3 but every now an then I'm in love with those old sounds. I'm not a pro and not a sound-designer. Like to use presets and customise them a bit. Sometimes those easy old ones are still great and still there and I don't have to waste time to find an alternative.
Worthfull advise and time journey. I wish you were my history teacher when I was in school haha
Well said Dom. I have nothing against VST2 and used them happily for many years! But I had far more problems deciding whether, when, if, or how to switch from 32-bit to 64-bit plugins, careless of whether they were VST2 or VST3. There were so many factors and complications involved! Now i try to keep it simple by using Only 64-bit plugins and almost all of which are VST3 👌🏻
Very good video, thanks Dom !
- Don't wait : save your project as audio files and move on !
- For my first orchestral project ' POUR UN DOLLAR DE MOIN ', I only used Cubase's EQ for the instruments.
- There are many ways to create a unique sound without plugins.
I replaced all my plugins when I switched to Apple Silicone Mac. Interestingly enough, I ended up using way more stock Cubase effects. I can understand that some people really like certain old plugins, but for me it's not worth the hassle of trying to make them work.
👍 me too
Thanks for this video. My first software synth was included on Aegis Sonix (1987) which came with my second hand Amiga in the beginning of the 90s. The machine also came with an 8bit audio sampler. I used Stereo Master to apply real time effects on my voice. Midi timing was rather good but not as good as on my friends ST. Both were better than a lot of midi timjng that I have experienced on some modern pc's in the home studios of friends (and my own).
I (almost) never experienced these problems with older pc's, even Amiga's. Something
very helpful facts, thanks dom
Vst3 is old and lacking itself. There's no way for the plugins to talk to each other with it, which is why Sonible Smart EQ has to use a networking protocol. The industry really needs to fix this, because plugins communicating with each other properly really opens up doors, especially with all this neural stuff now.
"I've explained it in this video..." 🤣
don't be a dork
@@BryTunesMusic its true xD
If I point into a field & say oh look a horse!
& there is no horse then we can all have a laugh :D
@@uncle-ed scroll in the description. The video is there- it could be a TH-cam bug if it doesn’t pop up :) ❤️
Great one! I would also like to add that VST2 to VST3 upgrade is automatic if the developer uses: "the state persistence is described in the FAQ section in the documentation.
A plug-in has to set the VST3 parameter ID to the index of the VST2 parameter when updated to VST3. Otherwise automation is not compatible (Arne_Scheffler via Steinberg forums)" I was blown away to learn that remapping your parameters to the VST3 spec could be automatic to the end user. In theory, this could mean no older broken projects.
I am new to all this, so thanks for explaining what VST is!
I use Reaper 7 and found out that when it runs a VST2 plugin, the FX plug-in window can be scaled and scrolled if needed. The same plugin as a VST3 doesn't do this. So, part of the display is off screen! I need a big display size because of my poor eyesight. VST2 plugins have an advantage for me that I miss on VST3 versions. Thanks for your instructive and informative videos! I watch often!
Hi Dom totally agreed, i use vst system link for my powercores and older plugins on cubase studio 4. Please dont take that away.
I remember most of those plugins, thanks for the unexpected nostalgia trip. I think the original Quadrafuzz is the one I miss the most - I still can’t seem to find a suitable replacement. In any case, 25-year Cubase veteran here, but I still learn something new every time I watch your vids! Thanks Dom!
Thank you for the information about this. Now i know more 💥👍
@@JestlMartin glad it helped!
Thanks for the detailed explanation.
In Japanese, it is “magnetic tape”!
That's a fun hoodie design!
That was a great video Dom !!!✌💜
I really just wish Cubase would have a good plugin sandbox that will not crash your whole project even with VST3 plugins that have issues. Just because it's VST3 does not guarantee its going to work good.
You are so right my friend! Cheers from Greece
@@blackstopmusic ❤️❤️❤️
Hi Dom. I don't see the problem with having to choose to update or not. Ableton Live 10 lets me have both 2.4 AND 3. And as I will always say. If I cant make a hit using what I have, then no amount of new and exciting plugins will make one bit of difference.
Agreed. I have made a video about this too. It’s not the tools it’s your skills ❤️
This means that there is no Absynth anymore... the problem is that for some plugins you can hardly find a newer/better version. Same goes for some ArtsAcoustic products (and why many people still use them). The best way is to limit the use of VST2 plugins as much as possible. If you still have maybe 1-2 plugins that you can't easily replace, you'll just have to bite the bullet. I also still use Absynth 5 under Apple Silicon with the help of Metasynth. It works without any problems, even if I would of course prefer a VST3 version... but the world isn't perfect.
When i upgraded from cubase 7 to 13 i found out about the vst2 problem. I decided to go with vst3 only, after fighting to include vst2 and having massive performance problems. Now use stock cubase wherever possible and vst3 only for remaining plugins
Great video and people have to realize time marches on and you have to change. Also so tried of them complaining about the DAW not being compatible with old plugins when it the plugin company's responsibility to update their plugin. My like has been music biz for about half and computers for the other half and at point both at same time. People don't have clue to the cost in time and money to create and especially maintain software. Worse they think all updates should be free. A company can't stay in business selling you a piece of software once and then giving away free updates for next ten, twenty years. So again great video.
Interesting video...thanks Dom..
Hey Dom, thanks for the great insight! Overall, it does make a lot of sense, but let me share with you my personal experience specifically with Steinberg. A long time ago, Steinberg released two incredible plugins: Virtual Guitarist 2 and Virtual Bassist. I've tried many "similar" VST instruments over the last couple decades, but nothing gets even close to these two. NI Complete libraries sound great, but programming custom riffs like you can do in VG is not an option. I had no choice but to move from Mac to Windows, where, thanks to jBridge, I still can use the Steinberg plugins in Cubase, but I would much rather have Steinberg adapt the amazing instruments to the new reality, so that I wouldn't have to use 3rd party "crotches". Instead, Steinberg simply took these amazing instruments out of circulation. Another example: four beautiful synths (Mystic, Prologue, Specter, LoopMash) simply vanished after upgrading from C11 to C12/13. Again, these are native stock Steinberg plugins. Was it really that difficult to adapt them to the new DAW? But here's the major issue: I own a phenomenal keyboard - Yamaha Motif XS8. One of the main reasons I bought it was that it was specifically designed to work as multichannel Firewire audio interface in conjunction with Cubase. The keyboard came with a whole bunch of dedicated software to support this integration: drivers, Cubase expansions, special templates, and a VST Editor for Motif, to name a few. An average virtual synth may cost a few hundred bucks. It's a lot of money, but if it is discontinued, you clench your teeth and move on. This beast, on the other hand, is a hardware synth that cost me a few thousand. It was a major investment on my part, and I was hoping that it would become the centerpiece of my studio for many ears to come. Indeed, it worked fabulously well until one day everything just ended. The only option, again, was to switch to Windows, which still supports Firewire and older plugins. By the way, a free DAW called Cakewalk has absolutely no problem opening even the most outdated plugins like Edirol Orchestral, side by side with the most current VST3 plugins. Why Steinberg couldn't do for a paying customer what Bandlab is doing for everyone out there is beyond me. Again, I think you're right in that life goes on, and nothing lasts forever, so at the end of the day, I guess, I'll have to make my peace with the harsh reality. Thank you for the great content!
Great stuff. It’s really great seeing those old screenshots. I was born in 1980, there was a dirty period in pc software during the 90s where graphics design was just utterly horrendous . Look at the texture background 😂 as for moving on, jumped all in when Apple silicon was released and thankfully steinberg were really quick in getting rid of the dongle and going native. It’s been a really good transition actually. Also I’ve found perfect guitar tone, only to throw it away and upgrade to a new axe fx starting the journey all over again. Next thing we need to discontinue is Midi 1.0
I honestly rather have a VST3 plugins. They run with more stability on my PC. I used to want to load some old VST2 plugins that i used to have back when i was using FL Studio(for music), but now that i am on Nuendo i simply do not want them and don't feel the need nor have the time to use some bridging software and hopefully get it to work, when as you said there are many plugins nowadays that can replicate the same thing and give even more options. Also lots of it come to(as you also said), nostalgia because those memories we have are pretty much, golden.
Agree 100%. If a company has not updated their plugins to VST3 after all these years, they probably never will. VST 2 is dead, as it should be. The VST3 protocol is more efficient and versatile. Time to ditch the horse and buggy and start driving a car! (or use public transportation, of course...😊)
Blue Cat's Patchwork if you need to use an old VST 2.4
Excellent points !!!
Totally agree. I can sympathize a bit with the folks that have their favorite plug ins that they won't be able to use anymore. But like you said, this has been a LONG time coming. Just like the developers have had plenty of time to transition, so to have the end users. Personally, it doesn't bother me all that much as I've been doing this a long time now and lots of software has just stopped being supported and eventually, you're forced to move on. It's just how software works. And largely I would say 75% of the time or more, I'm just using the Plug Ins or effects that are included with the DAW I'm using. Especially with Nuendo but I did the same when I was mainly a Samplitude user or Cakewalk/Sonar and also the old Sonic Foundry/Sony/Magix software like Sound Forge, Vegas, and Acid. Same with Tracktion/Waveform, which I still keep current even if I use it far less than I used to. One small nit picky thing. Steinberg came out with VST that was kind of the first protocol that allowed for anyone to create a plug in that could be used in any DAW that implemented the technology. Obviously, each DAW had their own plug ins so to speak before that. It was just processing that only applied to that one particular app and if you didn't like the EQ in product X, your only choice was to use a different DAW. Also I think it's worth noting that Microsoft came out with Direct X around the same time as VST, maybe even before Steinberg VST. And it also had the ability to have plug ins that any DAW could share. (even though Direct X was mostly about video game technology) I think in this case VST was the better protocol and unlike Beta vs VHS, we are better off for it. Especially since MS pretty much dropped the ball on Direct X eventually. But I had several DAWs that used Direct X plug ins before I ever got into VST Plug Ins. And many of them were quite good. But this is like so many things in our industry. Competing protocols and eventually someone becomes the defacto standard. And everyone forgets how much of a pain in the ass it used to be. Or they are too young to even remember and too lazy to study the history. :-)
I agree and support what you say to100% Dom. That because of Apples M1 and M+ strategie ... it make no sense longer to use VST2 and more worst ... 16BIT plugins in any case. However it is, in this case, absolut not acceptable that some plugin developers/seller still not move there plugins to VST3 and nativ Mx support. On Apple sometime you have to oportunity to use the "apple plugin standard" but if there also not native compiled to be used with Mx make it also no sense. I for myself stopped to buy plugins for the moment. And that also because a bit of your input (thank you) showing the included plugins from DAWs Steinberg Cubase ... I started to use them more and more and have to say most of the work can be done easy with them. And for the other stuff mostly there is anyway a VST3 Nativ version available.
It's an expensive hobby (obviously for those of us who don't work with this), and one thing I can tell you is that not all of us can pay several hundred dollars for plugins every time there is a big update, some of us have to think twice before invest in a good plugin, and if in the future we no longer have access to it, it's a problem. Thanks for the video anyway, I've learned a couple of things. 👍
I completely agree with you👍👍👍
What's with the midi timing on the vst3?.😊..just feel it's business..... both vst's have advantages n disadvantages
There are some plugins out there, where there isn't a choice, such as the awesome soundscape generators made by HG Fortune. He died a few years ago.
The old NI Pro-53 and FM7 vsts are still some of my favorite software instruments. And they barely dent a modern cpu. I wish Native Instruments would sell them again with resizable interfaces.
As a Reason user from V4, I'm still just grateful to be able to use vst's. VST2 hasn't ever caused me issues, that I'm aware of. Reason even dragged their feet on allowing VST3 after users screaming for it. Having read quite a few of the comments here, I'm happy I have VST2 as an option. It works fine for me, and potentially has effects that are baked into my style and workflow now.
I've used the first time VSTs in the year 2000 in Cubasis VST 2.0 & later Cubase VST 32. I loved the first NEON synth from Steinberg and the Universal Sound Module. In 2016 then started WinXP in Mac-VirtualBox together with this old Cubasis 2.0. And 😅 then started to sample the Sounds from this old VSTs threw a midi bridge on a Mac in Logic Pro. Also the response sound for the Ambience VST & the HallPlugin in Cubasis. Then reused them in the Logic Sampler (before EXS24) and the Space Designer. Also loved CamelSpace, Vanguance Synth, Crayon Filter and many more I forgot...
I sighed a genuinely sad sigh when I saw a brief clip of Xphrase at some point in the video. Man I miss that plugin!
Just another shout-out for JBridge. I'm using my favorite old 32 bit vst2 plugins in 64 bit Cubase 14 with no issues.
6:42 This is the Best reverb I know!
I just installed the TC Reverb from 1996 the day before yesterday (my dad had it laying around luckily, I'm just 20 lol), and I LOVE it!
Also, oddly enough, Xpand!2, a VST 2.4 Plugin which I have, has oddly enough the ability to side chain, weird…
OMG! Remember how stoked we were with Neon or Re-Birth! Those were the crazy days. ReCycle! ASIO. Re-Wire. Serial port to the Midi Time piece! Ah......those were the days. Terrible, but exciting! Charlie was part of the original Midi spec, so deep respect for Mr. Steinberg! Cubase user since the Atari, with a midi port ON the key board. Come on....high tech. Notator? Blah! Haha.
I regret that many companies left aside great sounds, hypersonic 1 and 2 had beautiful tones fm7, b4 NI and others had beautiful sounds that today have become just memories, if companies took these tones to current projects perhaps it would make sense to purchase new packages, but in reality what happens is an attempt to create new timbres that are just copies of the old ones, an example of this is the 808 timbres used in the rap industry anyway... excellent video, good opinion, these debates generate growth.
I'm 100% agree with you Dom!
VST was the first universal plug-in standard for DAWs. Beforehand plug-ins were around such as the TDM standard for DAWs like ProTools. 3rd parties like Waves made ProTools plug-ins the same way they make AAX plug-ins for ProTools now. But they had to run on propeietary DSP cards. CPUs weren't up to the task for any reasonable amount of plug-ins. Even with hardware DSP farms, the numbers of effects that could be run simultaneously were in the handfuls. The limit was 12 mono tracks (3 x 442 intetfaces) in 1994, running ProTools II on a NuBus expansion chassis, connected to a Mac Quadra 650.
Good video! Now I can just refer to your video instead of repeating myself 😅
The only part you did not discuss is that a lot of people who refuse to update and say “I want to retain my current sound” are using cracked software and cannot update because of this. They developed an excuse not to buy software. Not everyone, but you know who you are! 😌
I can see both sides of this discussion and i feel that the companies should update there plugins so that they work on newer software. They could just release it with a very small fee like £10.00 or so. I just wish they would do it on all older plugins but hey there is always work arounds i guess. Peace and love 🙏🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🌅
For me, and I stress "for me". Vst2 to vst 3 has been a nightmare. From Cubase 11 to 13 things have been going worse for me. I don't know if it's Steinberg or the other companies using vst3. Sadly it has not worked for any of my "stuff". I've been fobbed off by Steinberg saying it's the plugin manufacturers fault, the plugin manufacturers saying it's not their fault to, "maybe it's machine specific to me". Either way it's not been a good experience. My machine, and Cubase worked fine with 2.4.
Here's hoping for a consistent future. And not change for the sake of change.
Thank you for sharing your experience!
I have to agree on this though: 99% of the times my Cubase crashes is due to a dodgy plugin.
I have stopped using plugins altogether because they were not stable. No DAW has control over the code a plugin manufacturer writes.
I have made a full video on how to report bugs - the no.1 rule is first get rid of any plugins and see if the bug still occurs :)
@@DomSigalas Constant unneeded Windows updates also do not help.
@@tomwatson283 no these definitely not help 😂 I always find a way to stop them on my machine 😁
@@DomSigalas I'm not that clever with software or tech. I have to cope with things as they happen.
@@tomwatson283 just find a video on how to stop feature updates (not security ones) on windows. it's doable.
I recognize them all 😎 Started at the age of 24 (sadly too late), now 58....VST2 or Terratec EWS64 probably caused some ear damage...I already made jokes about Delay Lama...and still considering rebuilding a VST2 install on a 32bits/3GB RAM computer or a 64bits install using JBridge...How I love Steinberg from Day One ❤
I spent a LOT of money on BFD3 libraries over the years and refused to let it go to waste because they waited until 2024 to develop VST3 compatibility. I still have yet to upgrade to the latest version of Cubase, but I chose to wait after hearing reviews of version 13, so I didn't feel to rushed. Maybe by the time BFD3 beta is finished and ready for the public, I'll feel more confident about Cubase 13.
In my opinion, the best feature (besides sidechain) of VST3 is that when there is no signal, the plugin is suspended, meaning no CPU power is used. VST 2XX plugins use CPU performance, even when they are not being used. The Cubase "ASIO Guard" also runs better with VST3 plugins, which in turn means more and better optimized performance. The "ASIO Guard" is probably one of the best features implemented in Cubase and Nuendo.
Great video Dom 🤘On point 🥂
I am on LMMS, until they have offical solution I will just stay with vst2 not vst3. The problem is the protocal should backward compitable, otherwise why not use clap or other format?
"If you're living in a fairytail where you think this is done by magic, think again." That is so much on point, and not just for conversations about VST. I run into this all the time, where consumers who paid 10 dollars back in 1999 are now complaining that companies stopped updating their product. It's totally unreasonable.
Hi Dom, I am using cubase 13 and the talkback only works for when the Cue option is selected in the Control Room but does not work for the Main outs, is that how it is supposed to be or does it have to do with some setting on my Motu Ultralite Mk3 or I am missing something ? Thanks a lot in advance
Totally agree - stay current - use software that is actively being supported - if the manufacturer doesn't support it, why should you??
Thank you very much for another amazing video. Did you Use UAD plugins BTW?
Not the DSP ones. I will make a video why I didn’t use them :)
@@DomSigalas amazing! Waiting then. I mean native version... I am this to buy UAD signature. But so many strange thoughts.. so I am always trust you. It's the reason why I am asking 🙏
@@АлександрДевятьяров-е7ю I actually bought the Native versions last Black Friday :) I love them!
@@DomSigalas That's simple amazing then!! I always check all your videos! You are really great guy! And so professional! Please make more videos! And with UAD plugins please! Now I know that they are great and will purchase UAD Signature Bundle at this Black Friday!
Pressed like as always but Camelphat 3 doesnt have a real alternative, does it ? its the king
Ah yes Neon. It blew my mind to have a synth in my PC.
Hypersonic 2 and Komplexer was very good sounding synth for the ancient VST pro synths, I still using with JBridge without any problem, and NOT, I don't wanna replace with actuals toys. Fortunately I don't use Apple scheduled expiration systems, so less problems at all. Thanks.
Never mind all that, where'd you get that hoodie?
I use AU. Is that ok with everyone?
AKCHTUALLY you'll technically want to be using CLAP plugins if they are available. Disregarding the fact that it's a more open project, both in terms of code and license, it's more performant and more compatible than VST. Even VST3 still has a legacy implementation. I'm not saying it's bad, but it's doomed to go out of fashion sooner or later, as CLAP is better and easier for developers to adopt. For some years starting out now, you'll probably have to juggle VST3 and CLAP alongside one another if you still use Steinberg and legacy software. (In some cases you might even have to keep VST2, as it's the only type supported in, say, OBS.)
Luckily though, there are wrappers you can use for these standards, and more are likely to come out. VST3 does the job for the time being. Well, VST2 also does the job, for that matter.
I still use Cubase 8.5 pro
does the job for me
if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it
Still got old plug-ins running lovely with j bridge
Just because a new version comes out, doesn’t mean you have to waste your money and buy if you can use what you have 🤔
Airwindows still mainly produces in VST-2. No real reason to change, unless there's a VST-3 offered. Also, Reaper still supports both. End of 😜
Sidechain is the only reason why you should use it. Otherwise it works as great as v3.
Dear brother ,when I edit midi channel and I want to see audio channel visualize simultaneously and to know where to put it, let's say I work without a maternal and I want to know exactly where to put the MIDI according to baseline for example how can I see them simultaneously.... Thank you so much 💐🌸🙏🙏🙏🦄