Much of the information here is spot on, with one big exception. The human ear is not sensitive to the type of diffusion when the diffuse sound is coming from behind the head (front and sides are different). So it doesn't matter if you're fussing about exact formulas. What matters is "visual irregularity" and that you don't cover more than 50% of a module or 30% of your entire back wall with diffusion for a control room. And in fact many types of back wall diffusors can create problematic hot spots. Source: Master acousticians and control room designers Philip Newell and Tom Hidley.
"The human ear is not sensitive to the type of diffusion when the diffuse sound is coming from behind" - there's no such a type of diffusion "coming from behind". The aim of diffusion is phase grating, and no matter where the diffusors are located in the areas of the first reflection points -- they can improve the acoustics of your room if they are properly designed. The rear wall is the most important for the midfrequency range as far as the rear wall receives the most of the energy from the front mounted speakers and the rear reflections can be a big problem if the wall is not properly treated.
I have four of these same exact panels as the one in the front to diffuse flutter echo, and they do provide ample diffusion and an unambiguous audible reduction in echo from 1 kHz to about 7-8 kHz from sonogram measurements. The one disappointing thing was that they are simply stacked together with some allthread right after they are routered, and have no mounting points, which is an issue when they are just sheets of MDF. I had to disassemble them, modify them to actually be able to mount them, and then reassemble with wood glue and some fixturing for alignment. They also weigh 30 lbs. each so are quite substantial to mount. If they assembled them with adhesive/glue and included structural mounting points I'd have nothing but praise as they do work very well. If you were to use the stuff they include without modification, not only can the panel come completely apart, but it can fall off the wall after the screws strip. I'm not saying this to poopoo the product. In my case they are mounted overhead on a soffit, so if one came down it could literally kill someone standing underneath. If you buy some of their panels, do check them over before mounting.
When it is said the pattern needs to be calculated, but they end up like 'pretty' patterns, i have a hard time believing it really is the case. Especially when they add swirly patterns etc etc. Where can i find the calculations?
There are nearly endless possibilities to diffuse sound evenly, many of which are symmetrical patterns. But it does need to be calculated to some extent, you can't just put random blocks everywhere to make the room sound better
QRDude has been out since 2010. Does 2D now too. My conjecture says ray tracing software would be needed to test specific patterns. Semi circles and misshapen rounded diffusers are out there too, but I think those are for huge rooms or auditoriums for the most part.
Simple math formulas commonly produce good-looking patterns. And no, it's not complicated math. Remember that this company doesn't want you to build your own diffusors, as they want to sell them to you for far more than double the price it'd cost you to build them yourself. Do not take this kind of advice form a company whose business it is to try to sell you their products.
Of course a company that sells acoustic products don't want you to build them yourself. Don't listen to this video. You can google instructions for building good diffusers fairly simply, and it'll cost you less than half of what companies charge you for pre-built ones. You'll save a _huge_ amount of money by building acoustic treatment by yourself.
There are mathematical formulas under the hood, and the right materials, and manufacturing. Of course you can do it yourself if you have the right expertise and equipment. I have the maths, but I would surely cut my own finger off at the first attempt with a cutter tbh, moreover my time is worth more than that, hence I prefer to buy it. In other words, why don't we hit jackpot and build a working DAC at one tenth the street price? I am contributing the maths.
@@DaveJ6515 Math formula. How big of a diffuser do you want? Afford? 3 feet by 3 feet? That is 9 square feet. You want enough material to fill 9 square feet. You are gonna use say 1 inch blocks standing on end. That will be 1296 blocks. Divide by 4. Make one group 1 inch. Another 2. And another 3. You can have empty spaces for the last group. Play. Paint them different colors and make a cute design. Done.
Diffusion on the front wall behind the speakers won't hurt anything, but in most cases it's not the most effective place to begin with diffusion since the speakers are firing away from the front wall. Navigating all the information (and misinformation) on the Internet can be challenging -- when in doubt contact us with details about your room, we're happy to help you navigate all the options to get the best possible results in your room. www.gikacoustics.com/acoustic-advice-form/
Car Car as GIK acoustics says your better having nothing on the wall directly behind your front left and right speakers. Mine are rear ported but the sound from the ports will be virtually omnidirectional. The sound will wrap around the speaker and radiate in all directions. Some sound waves from the rear ports will still hit the front wall directly behind them. But it should be minimal so I will leave it without any absorption panels directly behind the front left and right speakers. Unless the bass sounds boomy from my seated listening position. More important are the direct and secondary reflection points from the woofers and tweeters. I'm installing 11 acoustic panels a mixture of diffusers, hybrid absorber/diffusers in my room. Two of which I bought from GIK acoustics, their excellent PolyFusors. The rest from a very good British acoustics company, and 3 from a talented Ukrainian carpenter wood worker.
@@C--A I have another question. Would it make a difference if I hung 2 bookshelf speakers from ceiling for Dolby atmos instead of buying 2 flush ceiling mount in ceiling speakers? I would have them pointed straight down
@@carcar5911 I would hang them above the front speakers right under the ceiling and pointed towards the listener. That's what I actually did with four JBL 8320 Cinema Surrounds.
My hifi has to fight for it’s right to be in our 18 by 21 feet family lounge. I have deployed absolutely no room correction or acoustic treatment other than a large plush rug, set on our hard wood floor, in front of and between my large floorstanders. Over the years I have changed out components, one at a time and appreciated the differences they make. Very recently I replaced my large 2 and 3 seater leather sofas for a slightly smaller 2 and 3 seater fabric sofas. I was shocked. They’ve totally killed the room. The room has lost it’s ambience. The sonic signature of my hifi has changed significantly. It is now far more, well, intimate! I’m not sure that I like it. I guess I will grow to like it, as these sofas are here for the long term. I can regain some of that former ambience, by ramping up the volume to 85db plus, which requires turning the volume control to 1 O’clock, where as previously, turning it to 11 O’clock would have achieved that goal. I guess the new suite is made from a more energy absorbing material. Whilst I appreciate that acoustic treatment under the appropriate circumstances can make a difference, I think my room is dead enough, even though I’ve large windows, concrete flooring clad with wood and dry walls! I still think I prefer to invest my hard earned money in equipment, not room treatment. If you want to remove the effect of the room on your music, use headphones. No, it is not the same is it!
@Howard Skeivys I'm not sure what to say about the sofas - although I can say sofas are not built to absorb low frequencies and have limited bass trapping capabilities. Typically when someone hears "deadness" in a room, it is because much of the high frequency content is absorbed, leaving lower frequencies to run wild. We've made a video all about it, and how you are likely under absorbing the lower frequencies in your space, which inadvertently is muddying up your sound. Here's the video: th-cam.com/video/HXtsMz5345E/w-d-xo.html You are correct, it is not the same to listen to music in headphones as it is to remove the sound of the room. With headphones, there are many differences and disadvantages to treating a room properly - we've written an article on the subject. I hope you'll enjoy! www.gikacoustics.com/mixing-listening-with-headphones-vs-acoustically-treated-space/
@@GIKAcousticsLLC I appreciate your feedback. The longest wall in my lounge is 21 feet long and 7.5 feet high and is all windows from above 3 feet. So, a large area of high frequency reflection. When I have the place to myself, and I sit down to a long attentive listening session, I do close the curtains, which helps. I’ve 2 large floor standers, augmented by 2 Rel subs placed adjacent to the floor standers. The new sofas did deaden the bass energy throughout the room. I’ve now deployed a 3rd Rel sub. Centrally placed at the rear of the room, on the wall opposite my floor standers. I had to spend a considerable amount of time and experimentation, trial and error, adjusting intensity levels and crossover points. The end result is that by using 3 subs, in that configuration, with the intensity level on each sub turned right down, compared to the level I had set with 2 subs, produces a very pleasing omnidirectional balanced bass response. My floor standers are bright, which is my preference, so, over all I’ve now got a well balanced, full range, sonic picture. All be it, far smaller sounding since the introduction of the new sofas. I’ve spent time, money and trial error building a premium rig that reproduces music the way I like to hear it. As I’ve mentioned, my hifi has to fight for it’s right to be in our far from ideal family lounge. Doubtless, it has a lot more performance potential given the right circumstances, but, it’s a balancing act between my requirements as an audiophile and consideration for the rest of the family. Minimising compromises and maximising benefits!
Without taking actual in-room measurements, any sort of room treatment is complete guesswork. Furniture does work as both absorbers and to some extent as a bass trap, but you have to do pre and post measurements to see what changes, and this also requires becoming proficient with measurement software and purchasing the necessary equipment such as calibrated measurement mics and an interface. You will also need some way to EQ the system as well (e.g. DIRAC live, etc.) which is MANDITORY for bass corrections due to the modal behavior of the room.
I have tried to buy the diffuser for the studio in India and filled up that form but your representative was selling the eq balancing software which i don't need, i have reference 4 already
Thanks Akshay, you may have spoken with one of our distributors in India since we do not have a location there. So you know, we would never never recommend EQ balancing software in place of our acoustic treatments, as you can see in our latest videos about DSP and digital room correction software. Unfortunately, our presence in India is limited to distributors only at the moment, but for acoustic advice and knowledge, please continue to check out our channel videos and articles on our websites.
I have a big question. I have an onkyo tx rz820. And I thought I could do 7.2.2 atmos. Turns out I can only do 5.2.2 atmos or 7.2. I have a small room. 12x11. The big question.. should I return the upfiriring Dolby atmos speakers and do 7.2. Or is it better to do 5.2.2 atmos with the upfiriring speakers??? I kinda like 7.2. I'm thinking the upfiriring speakers don't really make that much of a difference. Am I wrong? What should I do??
You can install speakers on your ceiling, that's what i did and it worth it. I never heard upfiring speakers but i highly doubt they can do a good job for Atmos/DTS X. Now i want a better receiver so that i can use 4 height speakers!
These "complex maths" is really just we throw out everything our artists makes up and see what sticks... Test them and ..oh hear it sound more spacial..wait i need to activate the fake surround effect..and done. Diffusion can works pretty well on flat records, no dsp or eq modification...but then again we have technology..D'oh. Diffusion might be interesting if your building a live concert room..with live non electronic equipment.. But yeah..diffusion is a mix of Art and Science.. The art of taking your money and "its complex math"..audiophile marketing.
@@DuSeun so why u using the you tube. Even the most scientific principles are demonstrated and well explained in youtube. So that means these are just ‘explanatory functions’
I have the quadratic diffuser shown up front. From actual measurements, it provides diffusion from about 1 kHz to about 8 kHz. Above that they start to look specular like the wall behind them. I think the single-reflection reduction I observed was something like 4-5 dB for the array of four (Edit: This is for the flutter echo that I had, for general diffusion of reflections it will be less) and they provide a definite audible improvement, but only if reflections are an issue for your space. You also need to actually do some measurements and testing to see what you need. It needs to be prescriptive, and not just guessing or you can easily make things worse, esp. with absorbers. Those can be a disaster if misapplied. Only complaint I have is the construction was not so great. They did not clean up the individual sheets after CNC'ing, and the panels just used some rudimentary machine screws and threaded rod to hold the laminations together. I had to modify them myself before using them.
Much of the information here is spot on, with one big exception. The human ear is not sensitive to the type of diffusion when the diffuse sound is coming from behind the head (front and sides are different). So it doesn't matter if you're fussing about exact formulas. What matters is "visual irregularity" and that you don't cover more than 50% of a module or 30% of your entire back wall with diffusion for a control room. And in fact many types of back wall diffusors can create problematic hot spots. Source: Master acousticians and control room designers Philip Newell and Tom Hidley.
"The human ear is not sensitive to the type of diffusion when the diffuse sound is coming from behind" - there's no such a type of diffusion "coming from behind". The aim of diffusion is phase grating, and no matter where the diffusors are located in the areas of the first reflection points -- they can improve the acoustics of your room if they are properly designed. The rear wall is the most important for the midfrequency range as far as the rear wall receives the most of the energy from the front mounted speakers and the rear reflections can be a big problem if the wall is not properly treated.
I have four of these same exact panels as the one in the front to diffuse flutter echo, and they do provide ample diffusion and an unambiguous audible reduction in echo from 1 kHz to about 7-8 kHz from sonogram measurements. The one disappointing thing was that they are simply stacked together with some allthread right after they are routered, and have no mounting points, which is an issue when they are just sheets of MDF. I had to disassemble them, modify them to actually be able to mount them, and then reassemble with wood glue and some fixturing for alignment. They also weigh 30 lbs. each so are quite substantial to mount. If they assembled them with adhesive/glue and included structural mounting points I'd have nothing but praise as they do work very well. If you were to use the stuff they include without modification, not only can the panel come completely apart, but it can fall off the wall after the screws strip. I'm not saying this to poopoo the product. In my case they are mounted overhead on a soffit, so if one came down it could literally kill someone standing underneath. If you buy some of their panels, do check them over before mounting.
When it is said the pattern needs to be calculated, but they end up like 'pretty' patterns, i have a hard time believing it really is the case. Especially when they add swirly patterns etc etc.
Where can i find the calculations?
There are nearly endless possibilities to diffuse sound evenly, many of which are symmetrical patterns. But it does need to be calculated to some extent, you can't just put random blocks everywhere to make the room sound better
@@DuSeun txs, seems i am skipping that for the moment lol
QRDude has been out since 2010. Does 2D now too. My conjecture says ray tracing software would be needed to test specific patterns. Semi circles and misshapen rounded diffusers are out there too, but I think those are for huge rooms or auditoriums for the most part.
Simple math formulas commonly produce good-looking patterns.
And no, it's not complicated math. Remember that this company doesn't want you to build your own diffusors, as they want to sell them to you for far more than double the price it'd cost you to build them yourself. Do not take this kind of advice form a company whose business it is to try to sell you their products.
Of course a company that sells acoustic products don't want you to build them yourself.
Don't listen to this video. You can google instructions for building good diffusers fairly simply, and it'll cost you less than half of what companies charge you for pre-built ones.
You'll save a _huge_ amount of money by building acoustic treatment by yourself.
lol only we can make a DIY diffuser. dont do it yourself!!
Pretty much
Ye and then it looks estetically pleasing too. Surprise surprise.......
If you can mesure the dufusion and you know how to do it. Like with other things.
There are mathematical formulas under the hood, and the right materials, and manufacturing. Of course you can do it yourself if you have the right expertise and equipment. I have the maths, but I would surely cut my own finger off at the first attempt with a cutter tbh, moreover my time is worth more than that, hence I prefer to buy it.
In other words, why don't we hit jackpot and build a working DAC at one tenth the street price? I am contributing the maths.
@@DaveJ6515 Math formula. How big of a diffuser do you want? Afford? 3 feet by 3 feet? That is 9 square feet. You want enough material to fill 9 square feet. You are gonna use say 1 inch blocks standing on end. That will be 1296 blocks. Divide by 4. Make one group 1 inch. Another 2. And another 3. You can have empty spaces for the last group. Play. Paint them different colors and make a cute design. Done.
Hello, Is there a way to only buy the front diffusor part of your 2X4 Diffusor/absorber Pad ?
Sorry Michel, we do not sell the plates individually. Thanks for the question!
I just saw another video that said to put diffusers behind your front speakers for small rooms.. im so confused
Diffusion on the front wall behind the speakers won't hurt anything, but in most cases it's not the most effective place to begin with diffusion since the speakers are firing away from the front wall. Navigating all the information (and misinformation) on the Internet can be challenging -- when in doubt contact us with details about your room, we're happy to help you navigate all the options to get the best possible results in your room.
www.gikacoustics.com/acoustic-advice-form/
Car Car as GIK acoustics says your better having nothing on the wall directly behind your front left and right speakers.
Mine are rear ported but the sound from the ports will be virtually omnidirectional. The sound will wrap around the speaker and radiate in all directions. Some sound waves from the rear ports will still hit the front wall directly behind them.
But it should be minimal so I will leave it without any absorption panels directly behind the front left and right speakers. Unless the bass sounds boomy from my seated listening position.
More important are the direct and secondary reflection points from the woofers and tweeters. I'm installing 11 acoustic panels a mixture of diffusers, hybrid absorber/diffusers in my room.
Two of which I bought from GIK acoustics, their excellent PolyFusors. The rest from a very good British acoustics company, and 3 from a talented Ukrainian carpenter wood worker.
@@C--A I have another question. Would it make a difference if I hung 2 bookshelf speakers from ceiling for Dolby atmos instead of buying 2 flush ceiling mount in ceiling speakers? I would have them pointed straight down
@@carcar5911 I would hang them above the front speakers right under the ceiling and pointed towards the listener. That's what I actually did with four JBL 8320 Cinema Surrounds.
QRD is not hard to figure out.
My hifi has to fight for it’s right to be in our 18 by 21 feet family lounge. I have deployed absolutely no room correction or acoustic treatment other than a large plush rug, set on our hard wood floor, in front of and between my large floorstanders.
Over the years I have changed out components, one at a time and appreciated the differences they make. Very recently I replaced my large 2 and 3 seater leather sofas for a slightly smaller 2 and 3 seater fabric sofas. I was shocked. They’ve totally killed the room. The room has lost it’s ambience. The sonic signature of my hifi has changed significantly. It is now far more, well, intimate! I’m not sure that I like it. I guess I will grow to like it, as these sofas are here for the long term. I can regain some of that former ambience, by ramping up the volume to 85db plus, which requires turning the volume control to 1 O’clock, where as previously, turning it to 11 O’clock would have achieved that goal. I guess the new suite is made from a more energy absorbing material.
Whilst I appreciate that acoustic treatment under the appropriate circumstances can make a difference, I think my room is dead enough, even though I’ve large windows, concrete flooring clad with wood and dry walls! I still think I prefer to invest my hard earned money in equipment, not room treatment. If you want to remove the effect of the room on your music, use headphones. No, it is not the same is it!
@Howard Skeivys I'm not sure what to say about the sofas - although I can say sofas are not built to absorb low frequencies and have limited bass trapping capabilities. Typically when someone hears "deadness" in a room, it is because much of the high frequency content is absorbed, leaving lower frequencies to run wild.
We've made a video all about it, and how you are likely under absorbing the lower frequencies in your space, which inadvertently is muddying up your sound. Here's the video: th-cam.com/video/HXtsMz5345E/w-d-xo.html
You are correct, it is not the same to listen to music in headphones as it is to remove the sound of the room. With headphones, there are many differences and disadvantages to treating a room properly - we've written an article on the subject. I hope you'll enjoy!
www.gikacoustics.com/mixing-listening-with-headphones-vs-acoustically-treated-space/
@@GIKAcousticsLLC I appreciate your feedback. The longest wall in my lounge is 21 feet long and 7.5 feet high and is all windows from above 3 feet. So, a large area of high frequency reflection. When I have the place to myself, and I sit down to a long attentive listening session, I do close the curtains, which helps. I’ve 2 large floor standers, augmented by 2 Rel subs placed adjacent to the floor standers. The new sofas did deaden the bass energy throughout the room. I’ve now deployed a 3rd Rel sub. Centrally placed at the rear of the room, on the wall opposite my floor standers. I had to spend a considerable amount of time and experimentation, trial and error, adjusting intensity levels and crossover points. The end result is that by using 3 subs, in that configuration, with the intensity level on each sub turned right down, compared to the level I had set with 2 subs, produces a very pleasing omnidirectional balanced bass response. My floor standers are bright, which is my preference, so, over all I’ve now got a well balanced, full range, sonic picture. All be it, far smaller sounding since the introduction of the new sofas.
I’ve spent time, money and trial error building a premium rig that reproduces music the way I like to hear it. As I’ve mentioned, my hifi has to fight for it’s right to be in our far from ideal family lounge. Doubtless, it has a lot more performance potential given the right circumstances, but, it’s a balancing act between my requirements as an audiophile and consideration for the rest of the family. Minimising compromises and maximising benefits!
Without taking actual in-room measurements, any sort of room treatment is complete guesswork. Furniture does work as both absorbers and to some extent as a bass trap, but you have to do pre and post measurements to see what changes, and this also requires becoming proficient with measurement software and purchasing the necessary equipment such as calibrated measurement mics and an interface. You will also need some way to EQ the system as well (e.g. DIRAC live, etc.) which is MANDITORY for bass corrections due to the modal behavior of the room.
I have tried to buy the diffuser for the studio in India and filled up that form but your representative was selling the eq balancing software which i don't need, i have reference 4 already
Thanks Akshay, you may have spoken with one of our distributors in India since we do not have a location there. So you know, we would never never recommend EQ balancing software in place of our acoustic treatments, as you can see in our latest videos about DSP and digital room correction software. Unfortunately, our presence in India is limited to distributors only at the moment, but for acoustic advice and knowledge, please continue to check out our channel videos and articles on our websites.
@@GIKAcousticsLLC exactly, then i denied and commented here just to keep you aware of it and i hope you’ll take action also
Diffusion is like a reverb unit where you keep the LENGTH the same, but increase the ROOM SIZE knob.
I have a big question. I have an onkyo tx rz820. And I thought I could do 7.2.2 atmos. Turns out I can only do 5.2.2 atmos or 7.2. I have a small room. 12x11. The big question.. should I return the upfiriring Dolby atmos speakers and do 7.2. Or is it better to do 5.2.2 atmos with the upfiriring speakers??? I kinda like 7.2. I'm thinking the upfiriring speakers don't really make that much of a difference. Am I wrong? What should I do??
You can install speakers on your ceiling, that's what i did and it worth it. I never heard upfiring speakers but i highly doubt they can do a good job for Atmos/DTS X. Now i want a better receiver so that i can use 4 height speakers!
Im glad they used the science and math when they designed egg cartons. They wouldnt be that good in sound diffusion if they didnt.
These "complex maths" is really just we throw out everything our artists makes up and see what sticks...
Test them and ..oh hear it sound more spacial..wait i need to activate the fake surround effect..and done.
Diffusion can works pretty well on flat records, no dsp or eq modification...but then again we have technology..D'oh.
Diffusion might be interesting if your building a live concert room..with live non electronic equipment..
But yeah..diffusion is a mix of Art and Science..
The art of taking your money and "its complex math"..audiophile marketing.
Well. I am lucky to find this video😭🤣
cool
Just FUD to justify their products and services.👎
No they are totally right about what they are saying. But this is for professional acoustics. However diy can and will still make a huge difference.
stop blah blah blah.....demonstrate it
You can't demonstrate it through a TH-cam video
@@DuSeun so why u using the you tube. Even the most scientific principles are demonstrated and well explained in youtube. So that means these are just ‘explanatory functions’
True. Just show us the difference between a real diffuser and a useless diffuser.
I have the quadratic diffuser shown up front. From actual measurements, it provides diffusion from about 1 kHz to about 8 kHz. Above that they start to look specular like the wall behind them. I think the single-reflection reduction I observed was something like 4-5 dB for the array of four (Edit: This is for the flutter echo that I had, for general diffusion of reflections it will be less) and they provide a definite audible improvement, but only if reflections are an issue for your space. You also need to actually do some measurements and testing to see what you need. It needs to be prescriptive, and not just guessing or you can easily make things worse, esp. with absorbers. Those can be a disaster if misapplied. Only complaint I have is the construction was not so great. They did not clean up the individual sheets after CNC'ing, and the panels just used some rudimentary machine screws and threaded rod to hold the laminations together. I had to modify them myself before using them.
Buy carpeting.