I've had a hard time pinning down a real "main," but I've been playing Incineroar a LOT after picking him as a joke to show my friend how slow his run is. He's a fun Grappler. Used to play Wario though. I feel like he'd be considered a Rushdown character?
A bit disappointed that you didn't have a chart. However I'm glad you have this video out there for people in the first place. I understand how much time it would take to make a chart like that. Kinda hard to categorize some characters as some of them are hybrids in 2 or more areas.
@@samg6152 Aaaaaayyyy he edited the description! Awesome! Still was hoping he'd actually make one himself but this is still good because the link actually shows a few other people's takes on the archetype stuff.
@@rhettmitchell I mean this smash archetype triangle basically is the same thing so I can definitely see that. However I think it's still super vague and will always not give the whole picture to a lot of characters. One of these days I want to make a program that gives you a suggestion for a main, with some backup options based on sliders for the various things that make up all characters in the roster. Though realistically, Smash 6, maybe even 7 will be out before I get around to that lol
He fucked up some of the more official terms. “Dynamic” characters are actually called Stance Characters. “Trappers” as you said are setup characters. And Precision characters are often referred to as keep-away characters. You could also argue that Bait and Punish characters are called Turtles, but the community hasn’t really come with a definitive term.
He either doesn't play or is super old school, but based on his definitions of "Zoner" or calling Stance characters "Dynamic characters". I'd say he doesn't play traditional fighting games.
@@Ozukai yeah but even the most precise Marth player will miss the tippers like it isn’t even there. His frame data’s hitboxes are just fundamentally lacking so Lucina’s spacing and precision has more reward
“They use disjointed hit boxes to attack at just the right distance” Shows clip of Lucina doing poorly spaced reverse nair three times lmao Good video regardless
One reason why I like link so much is that he can fit into a few things. At a basic level he’s a zoner but when you get better especially with the bomb you can be a trapper, bait and punish, and more!
@@toastedtarts4044play link. He's a - bait and punish (slow but hits hard) - zoner (3 projectiles) - mix-up (can z-drop bomb combo like paisy turnip + plenty of options) - trapper (bomb can be used as a manually triggered mine) If link still had his tethered grab he would have been a grappler too and had the most archetypes under his belt
Thing about Greninja is that mainly he strives as a hit and run but is more based towards bait and punish footsies. He covers lots of ground with aerials, shuriken and things. Bear in mind most characters in this game are defined by a multiple of archetypes.
I’d say Lucario also belongs in the dynamic archetype because he plays aggressively at low aura and passively at high aura. Not only that he would also be more likely to use certain moves depending on the percent he is at. For example, at low aura, he will use fast moves like f-air and dash attack. At high aura he will use strong moves like b-air or f-smash.
Im a character specialist, and i main Toon Link. I like what you said about not trying to pigeon hole your character too much. What ive found is that Toon Link is absolutely built like a zoner, but his true power is unlocked when you can play him as rushdown. It takes such an insane amount of unique encounter muscle memory baked into your brain to be able to approach with toon link and win neutral consistantly, but if your boomerang, bomb, arrow, sword synergy is truly awakened then you can play toon link as a rushdown character. I think that's the most interesting thing i got from this video, that sometimes a character can unlock new playstyles but it comes at the price of character mastery.
This is pretty misguided in my opinion and doesn't really help understand matchups in this game. The archetypes you placed the characters in aren't wrong persay but they're not accurate for smash. Archetypes for matchups should revolve around gameplan. For example rosalina and ice climbers. They're both puppet characters sure, but have different gameplans. Rosalina is a super neutral based character no matter who is playing her, she wants to win neutral and keep you in disadvantage, like lucina, and pikachu. Ice climbers however have a terrible neutral, but have a deadly advantage when they get it and a more survivable disadvantage, making them touch of death type, or high damage characters, like jigglypuff and incineroar. The information you present is just kinda useless for how the game truly works at a deeper level.
Yeah I didn’t really agree with some of the things he said either. For example, heavies are their own archetype, and are normally well, heavy grapplers that don’t have the best frame data. Glass cannons also are normally rushdowns, so Sephiroth is a bad example
stop getting secondaries early on, play one character and stick with it for a while until you think you're good enough that you can share attention to 2 characters at a time
I agree so much. From experience I've played with 2 noob friends and one never had a main but a group of characters they play and another had only 1. Its obvious who got better after 9 months of playing.
@@-rlmn honestly; that’s an underrated strat once you get good enough- makes you stuff fishing your character specific things and force yourself to improve fundamentals
I wouldn't say Olimar is really a puppeteer/shadow type, the pikmin are more like ammunition for his attacks than a second thing on the field that requires placement K. Rool's crown also exists as an entity that can be separate from him, but he's clearly not a puppeteer, right? I would see Olimar the same way You could turn Olimar into a guy with a magic gun who cycles through different types of ammo and has to take a moment to reload, and he'd basically be the same, whereas you couldn't just give Rosalina a gun because all of the actions Luma normally takes wouldn't be there, she'd be a different character, Rosalina and Gun That's the difference imo
I’d say he’s a really weird mix between puppeteer, projectile character, and a stance character??? It’s really hard to label him since he has certain specific features of each archetype that his gameplay relies on- him absolutely relying on “items” separate from his hurt box that have their own specific hitbox and can be separated from him, his ability to throw pikmin as an offensive option, and the feature of his five types pikmin each having completely different hitbox, frame data, and damage output, respectively- but not enough to confidently label him to a certain archetype(s). I’d even say it would make more sense to classify olimar as an item character if such a thing exists.
@@fivenightsatminecraft9615 Says who, folks take his normals for granted when he has plenty of combo starters for him to not be campy...for crying out loud he's the fastest character. C.Falcon is the second fastest and we don't see people playing campy with him😒😢
Maybe putting characters into archetypes based on what the character IS, rather than what the character is TRYING TO DO IN GAME, isn't really a greeeat way to do it. Yeah, Roaslina & Luma is a 'Puppeteer' character. But with their large hitboxes, I'd be more inclined to place them under 'Precision.' I think there only really need to be 4 archetypes, based on what the character is generally going to try to do during a game: All-Rounder - has a varied moveset to accommodate for multiple kinds of situations. Sometimes has a projectile. (Mario, Wolf, maybe Ness?) Zoner - usually is going to be throwing out projectiles and stay away from their opponent. (Link, Samus, Villager) Grappler - most of their power comes from their grabs. Usually have either a killthrow, grab combos, or both. (Donkey Kong, Luigi, Incineroar) Rushdown - just get in your opponent's face and juggle them to death. (Fox, Roy, Pikachu) Anything beyond those could really be reserved for very specific classifications such as: Captain Falcon is a rushdown character WITHOUT a sword. -----or----- Roy is a rushdown character WITH a sword.
I don't agree with the definition of zoner. Some zoners throw projectiles to put you into disadvantage and then attack at close range. They don't necessarily want you to be far all the time as the big damage and kills does not come from their projectiles. I also think there are characters that are hybrid, like King K. Rool. He has characteristics of both Bait and Punish and Zoner.
I was struggling to grasp archetypes and this video helped me out a lot! Do you think you could go over how different archetypes are against each other? It is the only other thing I am confused about. The things about each archetype are quite clear to me after your amazing video!
@@sptflcrw8583 Archetypes have different strengths and weaknesses, I meant that I would love to see a video going over the strengths and weaknesses of archetypes and how those strengths and weaknesses can be exploited by other archetypes.
@@quichen2271 very few characters fit directly into one archetype, and instead are homogenizations of various different archetypes. Even then, archetype matchups vary based on the game. For example, in some games, grapplers tend to beat rushdown characters, while the opposite holds true for others.
Ever since I had Ultimate, I've had a difficult time choosing which main would fit my playstyle. I picked between Joker, Yoshi, Falco and Dark Pit, before I finally found my perfect main, Sephiroth, the glass cannon. The one-winged angel has been dominating the competition like crazy. This man is a really fun swordfighter.
He isn't really your Typical Glass Canon tho. He is Big wich means he has a Big Shield. His slender Frame makes him no real combo food and doesn't let him get Shield poked to heavily. He has high Priority Attacks wich are really disjointed and snap Away Projectiles and guard from other moves and he has a Counter as a Landing and offstage defense mixup. He also has no bad Disadvantage and has Hyper Armor and a Third Jump with His Winged Form. He is a Hyper Defensive Light Weight that lives way longer then even Poor Recovery Heavys like Incineroar or Ganondorf. So would you still call him a Glass Canon. His Defense is just pure Playmaking and not beeing stupidly Heavy like Bowser or Donkes Kong.
@@anigodzapex9384 Eh, now that you mention it, he's not a glass cannon. He has all sorts of advantages and disadvantages but he makes up for them quickly. You just have to make sure that you know what you're doing with him.
@@lajazziamacklin8418 He fits the Prescision Archtype to perfect. He has slender Hitboxes, and Timing Based Attacks. Everything a Septh does is Prescision!
@@anigodzapex9384 Yep. I've had PERFECT timing and precision on my attacks thanks to Sephiroth. One time I killed Cloud when he tried to get back on the Omega Form of Ryu's stage and Gigaflare instantly caught and launched him straight off the stage. Heck, I can now detect when my opponents will get back on the stage and then I go in for the kill with Gigaflare and Megaflare. My playstyle is playing defensively and aggressively. PS: The Spirits I use for my main are Sirius, Karel and Aerith. This Spirit Setup makes Sephiroth incredibly powerful, especially when he's fighting against Level 1 CPUs in Smash and Tourney Mode.
Why do people act like even half of these are archetypes, I still don't get. Precision, Trapper, and Zoners are all zoners precision just being a normal zoner with the other two being projectile zoners. Bait & Punish and Hit & Run have never been archetypes they are playstyles not archetypes. Using Greninja as it was an example, he would rather stay in your face after the combo if possible to get more damage while you are still scared/panicking. "Dynamic" is not a thing, that is just a stance character of which Shulk is not he is a normal zoner (precision). Each stance having an archetype culminating in a character with a more diverse mix of play. Mix-up is hardly an archetype in normal fighting games and just is not one in smash due to the lack of diversity of defensive mechanics throughout history. Puppet characters fitting the same thing as stance being that it explains the character but the not playstyle/win condition being that you could have a grappler puppet character like Ice Climbers and what ever Rosa is because I personally don't get the character. 4:37 as your description implies you don't really know what makes a grappler. Grapplers main traits are a difficulty of approach, being scary when close, and an explosive damage output. The second is achieved via mixups commonly through command grabs that can't be teched in traditional fighters which is why they are referred to as "grapplers". Footsies is just a all-rounder/shoto. Mind that that does not mean Ken/Ruy/Terry are an all rounder. It just means they are not Footsie characters. All of them are rushdowns with Ryu being the closest to an all-rounder out of the three. I'll give you rushdown, zoner, grappler, and All-rounder though. Though Mario is far to combo oriented to ever be a all-rounder.
I think a Glass Cannon character doesn't help categorize an "archetype" of a character, as the way you explained it only really describes a characters attributes than playstyle. Yes, maybe the implication is that a character dying faster means they must play safer, but a glass cannon character can be anything, it literally just depends if your character is heavy or not and if they deal a lot of damage. Mythra is a glass cannon who is mainly Rushdown, same with Fox and Pika, but their playstyles are wildly different than that of Mewtwo, Olimar, and Sephiroth. Yes, a character can have more than one archetype, but that would imply they have similar aspects in playstyles, and in this case, the only shared attribute is their damage output and weight.
Ridley isn’t too much of a grappler as he doesn’t benefit as heavily as certain other grapplers from a grab. DK I heavily agree should be considered a grappler.
@@samarthgour3026 But that’s a command grab, plus Bowser’s command grab is better. I think the archetype of grappler is more suited for characters that can spend the whole game fishing for grabs and benefit heavily off of them.
I feel like he failed to mention that many archetypes can fit one character. Rush down would go more to someone like shiek, fox, or pika. This game is a little more complex than that tough. A good character should be able to dabble in 3-4 archetypes or have some of their features
I’m not at a disadvantage without luma in most situations only when I’m grabbed or when I’m in a combo or to block attacks most attacks and combos stay relatively the same
Camping is a huge part of Joker's playstyle. To call him just a rushdown down plays his zoning. He's actually more Shoto/all-rounder than what you'd initially assume.
I think K. Rool is a Mix-Up character, he has multiple tools like his projectiles, his suck for his cannon which can kill, suck and cuck, and throw the opponent of stage, he also has very damage and knock back heavy smash attacks which are another tool, combined with his diverse aerials, along with crazy recovery which can damage and throw the opponent into the blast zone, with super armor for moves like, nair, and dash attack, and combined with a counter that can also deflect, it’s a mix-up character, easily.
Would there be a sort of “floater” category for fighters that like to remain airborne (so, Kirby, Jigglypuff, Sora, Meta Knight and the like) in opposition to the groundies?
I was kinda hoping there'd be some sort of graphic to make this easier to keep up with like in the thumbnail. I was going into this thinking there was gonna be quick analytics of each character and defining who they're more effective against and who they aren't
"Turning the arena into a chessboard calculating where they are going" 3:24 and one example is Simon..... Yeah because they aren't in a corner spamming all the buttons and throwing all the shit posible
Yup they have special spamming flowchart they use regardless of the character they fight against with Up B and Dtilt "get off me". They are a very polarizing character, you either have the tools to fight them or don't. My main Bowser feels very difficult, but my secondary Wolf does great against them.
I play link a character who i would honestly put in two of the archetypes those being zoner of course and trapper because of his bomb being an ever presents stage hazard that he can manipulate in many diffrent ways and his boomerang is some thing that the opponent constantly has to be mindful of especially when it is coming back to link
I barely even consider link a zoner when nair exists. Link plays a bit like a zoner to start a lot of games before playing almost a hit and run style with his trapping.
I love Hero because he doesn’t fit anywhere really. He’s sort of a zoner by default, but with acceleratle he can do rushdown and with oomph/psyche up he can be a brutal bait and punish pick. I guess he’s kind of a stance character but not really. He’s wacky and he’s my favorite
I highly dissagree with link as a zoner, he typically uses his projectiles to trap and force the opponent into a lose-lose situation rather than try to purely zone.
@@sptflcrw8583 Zoners are all about keeping you out of their face. Link doesn't fight effectively from that far away. His projectiles aren't meant to keep you out. They are just to make you get impatient and mess up, or use a returning boomerang or a bomb to force you into a situation you can't win. Arrow is almost exclusively used to make the opponent burn options offstage. If you're playing link as a full zoner you either suck at the game or you are playing vs heavies/Ryu/ken/terry
I know Luigi has that 0 to death combo off his grab but can he really be considered a true grappler? That combo depends on how low the opponents’ damage percentage is to be the most consistent too so if they’re high enough Luigi doesn’t have an incentive to specifically setup for grabs anymore outside of your regular grab punishes whereas a character like Incineroar would want to grab you as often as possible throughout the entire match regardless of your damage percentage.
Many archetypes can fit one character. I think he covered a basic beginner level video of “archetypes” neutral is a whole topic on its own, but your character should be able to do a little bit of everything if he to be a top tier or higher.
You know it's a well made game when even little Mac, the most straightforward character in the game, fits perfectly into at least three different categories.
Me, a main Mythra user: Ugh, I keep struggling with Samus. Me, after watching the video: I see why people have secondaries. It sounds a good idea to pick one to counter those samuses. I liked the video, awesome stuff!
I really don’t agree with the archetype system for smash. Look at joker for example. The chart says he’s a rushdown character, but that’s just not true. Most high level joker players use his broken mobility and hitboxes to bait approaches and cover options. Jokers at his best when he threatens an option rather than when he’s actually using it. So how do you classify that? You can’t. He can play too many different ways. Lots of characters end up like this. They can play in a way that defies their supposed archetype. DK can create a wall with bair rather than grappling, bowser can rushdown, young link can bait and punish.
Ness main here. I would argue that he is a mix up character. You never know when he's suddenly going to throw out thunder or a tricky double jump cancel to pk fire. Magnet gives him so many movement options. Watch Bestness ledge stall sometime. He makes good players look like they're in disadvantage while he's on ledge because he has so many options. Yes he has that mean back throw but setting up grabs isn't his main focus.
Multiple archetypes can fit a character. Ness has some brawler features, and has kill throws as well. I’d say he is classified as a light weight, floaty brawler with disjoints and projectiles
Currently rush down, but my comfort characters are all-around and precision. I currently main Joker but I may switch back to Mario or Marth eventually.
This guide made me instantly sub, amazing quality. Your energy gives you a lot of potential, if you keep up the guide videos, and throw in a few comedy style videos(think Little Z or Choctopus or something) and BOOM. One of the greats.
Yeah, but it just so happens that certain characterw can only work efficiently by playing this way, because they suck at anything that isnt punishment.
Excuse me!? Why aren't you more popular? This Video was absolute professional. You deserve much more attention for this kind of content. I hit that bell so hard!
While the vid was good, it's too complicated. Half of these archetypes could be put into one category. For ex: zoner and trapper as they both use projectiles
I always think of Little Mac as the poster boy of glass cannons. He's gonna kill you at 30%, but you're gonna get him even earlier by gimping his recovery. A little Mac game often boils down to a horrific slaughter-fest whether or not it's Mac doing the slaughtering.
The comments reconfirmed that smash players don’t care about the actual accuracy of things, they just care about mincing the meaning of definitions and words to prove they “know more” about smash and “prove others wrong” because they’re more “experienced” and/or “better/smarter”
Very informative. Since Inkling's a hit and run character, it's best to keep a safe distance and pressure opponents with the Splattershot and strike whenever there's an opening.
I play Zero Suit Samus and she's like a mixture of rushdown and bait and punish because she pressures with speed, but also baits and punishes with strong kill options
I do agree that Terry is a footsie, but the biggest mistake you can make in a Terry matchup is underestimating him in the air. He's almost halfway from Ryu to Captain Falcon.
@@kylespevak6781 It can be either or. You'll see pro players have a secondary specifically to handle matchups their main can't handle. (For instance, a Pikachu main might pick up another character that has an easier time against Ness players) But a secondary can also mean your second-favorite character on the roster.
Steve might actually be Dynamic but not explicitly like the stance/form change characters you mentioned. He has options to trap, bait and punish, zone, hit and run, rush down, and even turtle. The caveat is that they ALL tend to take both time and resources, so you have to pick one of them at any given moment.
Very interesting concept, but I disagree strongly with many of your opinions about where you put specific characters. This might be because I approach the game from a competitive view, but there are many views here that are contrary to the general consensus between top players. For example, Palu is most certainly not a mix-up character; her neutral is incredibly simple. It works because each individual option is so strong, NOT because she has many versatile tools she can use to condition and confuse you, as you defined the mix-up category as. In neutral, Palu mostly relies on spaced and landed fair or bair, dash attack to whiff-punish, grab, and maybe neutral b. Also, if a primary purpose of this video was to help people pick a secondary to cover the weaknesses of their primary based on their archetypes, why not talk about which archetype matchups? Like, most real rush-down characters have good approach options and often can break through a zoner's gameplan, leading to a favorable mu there. It confuses me why this wasn't covered in the video at all.
![What Your Main Says About You! [Definitive Edition] (Smash Ultimate)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/roe4qSpoLr8/mqdefault.jpg)
![What Your Main Says About You! [Definitive Edition] (Smash Ultimate)](/img/tr.png)
What archetype is YOUR main?
I've had a hard time pinning down a real "main," but I've been playing Incineroar a LOT after picking him as a joke to show my friend how slow his run is. He's a fun Grappler.
Used to play Wario though. I feel like he'd be considered a Rushdown character?
Dynamic (PT)
I think Duck Hunt is a trapper
Grappler (Luigi )
We all know that we have at least played all archetype at least one am I right
"Mixup charachters like palutena" yeah mixups between nair and bair
As a Palutena main I find this wrong
You forgot the neutural B too
You forgot the Up B for Mario because every Mario player tries to jump over Palutena for reasons I will never fathom.
@@ZeroX7649 ah yes, the jump man jumps over palutena, I can't imagine why.
I miss the punching bag category with pichu, jigglypuff and donkey kong
And maybe a u-air
A bit disappointed that you didn't have a chart. However I'm glad you have this video out there for people in the first place. I understand how much time it would take to make a chart like that. Kinda hard to categorize some characters as some of them are hybrids in 2 or more areas.
Check the description
@@samg6152 Aaaaaayyyy he edited the description! Awesome! Still was hoping he'd actually make one himself but this is still good because the link actually shows a few other people's takes on the archetype stuff.
It could just be a huge Venn diagram with several circles
@@rhettmitchell I mean this smash archetype triangle basically is the same thing so I can definitely see that.
However I think it's still super vague and will always not give the whole picture to a lot of characters. One of these days I want to make a program that gives you a suggestion for a main, with some backup options based on sliders for the various things that make up all characters in the roster. Though realistically, Smash 6, maybe even 7 will be out before I get around to that lol
Lol wtf
Timestamps:
All rounder 1:24
Dynamic/Stat Changing 1:41
Rushdown 2:02
Hit and Run 2:21
Mix Up 2:41
Zoner 2:56
Trapper/Set Up 3:12
Precision/Spacer 3:36
Puppeteer 3:57
Bait and Punish/Heavy 4:15
Grappler 4:34
Glass Canon 4:49
Footsies/Grounded 5:06
underrated
He fucked up some of the more official terms.
“Dynamic” characters are actually called Stance Characters. “Trappers” as you said are setup characters. And Precision characters are often referred to as keep-away characters. You could also argue that Bait and Punish characters are called Turtles, but the community hasn’t really come with a definitive term.
@@Londoniusthe3rd same thing as healer or medic
Thnx fr
@@Londoniusthe3rd to be fair calling marth keep away is strange since he can use more rushdown esque elements to achieve what he wants
You can tell this guy doesn't play Ryu when he pronounces it "Riye-u" 😂
He either doesn't play or is super old school, but based on his definitions of "Zoner" or calling Stance characters "Dynamic characters". I'd say he doesn't play traditional fighting games.
who plays Ryu tho
no offense to the Ryu mains
i think the standard back in SF2 was RYE YOU.
Riye-u is the right way
Edit:he still don’t play ryu tho
@@x_eduardo_x6186 I do lol. It's fine though. It's pretty hype to see a good ryu player
Why use Lucina instead of Marth as your example of "precision" character when she removes the entire mechanic that makes Marth require precision.
Because its still advantageous for Lucina to be precise and space moves well
@@RoseStrohm yeah but precision is marth's whole thing
@@Ozukai same for sephiroth as well
@@Ozukai yeah but even the most precise Marth player will miss the tippers like it isn’t even there. His frame data’s hitboxes are just fundamentally lacking so Lucina’s spacing and precision has more reward
@@Rexis102 bro lucina has the same hitboxes what do you mean.
“They use disjointed hit boxes to attack at just the right distance”
Shows clip of Lucina doing poorly spaced reverse nair three times lmao
Good video regardless
"Precision characters this is when you think about sword characters". Roy: me press button me win.
As a Roy main I completely agree
Laughs in fair
I just want to know why he said Lucina instead of Marth lol, why on god's green earth would you not say Marth lol
This is the least funny comment I’ve ever read in my life. Are you 13 years old?
@@chaosorbCRBHe wouldn’t be, because the comment is 3 years old
I got so excited when I saw the title. I've found it difficult before to understand archetypes but you've cleared it up Red.
Me too
Me and a friend were debating over this and were kind of surprised at how little it’s talked about within the community.
rayu?
Indeed, I do live
Just saw this in my reccomended, underrated as hell, needs to get more attention!!
like the video!!!
in my recommendation right after I was thinking about what archetypes are
75
this has 144k+ views now
@@trixssbm 2 months ago it was lower :)
One reason why I like link so much is that he can fit into a few things. At a basic level he’s a zoner but when you get better especially with the bomb you can be a trapper, bait and punish, and more!
I play mario but link sounds cool
That’s why I would def call link a mix up character since you can do alot with his kit
@@toastedtarts4044play link. He's a
- bait and punish (slow but hits hard)
- zoner (3 projectiles)
- mix-up (can z-drop bomb combo like paisy turnip + plenty of options)
- trapper (bomb can be used as a manually triggered mine)
If link still had his tethered grab he would have been a grappler too and had the most archetypes under his belt
Thing about Greninja is that mainly he strives as a hit and run but is more based towards bait and punish footsies.
He covers lots of ground with aerials, shuriken and things.
Bear in mind most characters in this game are defined by a multiple of archetypes.
I place K. Rool, respectively, in the same archetype as Kazuya and Sora. The “Everything about them is busted” archetype.
I think K. Rool would better be in the "bulied" one with ganondorf and little mac or in the "SIKE I have armor" with Bowser
I’d say Lucario also belongs in the dynamic archetype because he plays aggressively at low aura and passively at high aura. Not only that he would also be more likely to use certain moves depending on the percent he is at. For example, at low aura, he will use fast moves like f-air and dash attack. At high aura he will use strong moves like b-air or f-smash.
Dude really said RAYU
I thought he was about to show us where all the characters fit in the ones he listed from what I got from the thumbnail
It's in the description
Im a character specialist, and i main Toon Link.
I like what you said about not trying to pigeon hole your character too much. What ive found is that Toon Link is absolutely built like a zoner, but his true power is unlocked when you can play him as rushdown. It takes such an insane amount of unique encounter muscle memory baked into your brain to be able to approach with toon link and win neutral consistantly, but if your boomerang, bomb, arrow, sword synergy is truly awakened then you can play toon link as a rushdown character.
I think that's the most interesting thing i got from this video, that sometimes a character can unlock new playstyles but it comes at the price of character mastery.
This is pretty misguided in my opinion and doesn't really help understand matchups in this game. The archetypes you placed the characters in aren't wrong persay but they're not accurate for smash. Archetypes for matchups should revolve around gameplan. For example rosalina and ice climbers. They're both puppet characters sure, but have different gameplans. Rosalina is a super neutral based character no matter who is playing her, she wants to win neutral and keep you in disadvantage, like lucina, and pikachu. Ice climbers however have a terrible neutral, but have a deadly advantage when they get it and a more survivable disadvantage, making them touch of death type, or high damage characters, like jigglypuff and incineroar.
The information you present is just kinda useless for how the game truly works at a deeper level.
I was thinking the same thing. If he’s right I don’t get the game at all lol.
Yeah I didn’t really agree with some of the things he said either. For example, heavies are their own archetype, and are normally well, heavy grapplers that don’t have the best frame data. Glass cannons also are normally rushdowns, so Sephiroth is a bad example
This video isn't about matchups dude
@@coffeebean5579 it's about archetypes which are based around gameplan.
At the very least the video is misguided and at worst its harmful.
I agree I’m a samus main and for some matchups I either play her as a zoner or a trapper w my down b and slow missles,
Ah yes, my favorite street fighter character "r-why-you"
The best part of this video is that we don't know what characters are in each archetype besides a couple characters
its up to you to decide
Sonic's really REAAAAAAAALLY good at bait and punish because of his mobility !
You should do videos diving in deeper to each archetype. I love your content red, keep up the good work!
stop getting secondaries early on, play one character and stick with it for a while until you think you're good enough that you can share attention to 2 characters at a time
I just play whatever character I feel like playing.
Agreed
I agree so much. From experience I've played with 2 noob friends and one never had a main but a group of characters they play and another had only 1. Its obvious who got better after 9 months of playing.
pick random
@@-rlmn honestly; that’s an underrated strat once you get good enough- makes you stuff fishing your character specific things and force yourself to improve fundamentals
is olimar/alph not a puppeteer as well?
I wouldn't say Olimar is really a puppeteer/shadow type, the pikmin are more like ammunition for his attacks than a second thing on the field that requires placement
K. Rool's crown also exists as an entity that can be separate from him, but he's clearly not a puppeteer, right? I would see Olimar the same way
You could turn Olimar into a guy with a magic gun who cycles through different types of ammo and has to take a moment to reload, and he'd basically be the same, whereas you couldn't just give Rosalina a gun because all of the actions Luma normally takes wouldn't be there, she'd be a different character, Rosalina and Gun
That's the difference imo
I’d say he’s a really weird mix between puppeteer, projectile character, and a stance character??? It’s really hard to label him since he has certain specific features of each archetype that his gameplay relies on- him absolutely relying on “items” separate from his hurt box that have their own specific hitbox and can be separated from him, his ability to throw pikmin as an offensive option, and the feature of his five types pikmin each having completely different hitbox, frame data, and damage output, respectively- but not enough to confidently label him to a certain archetype(s). I’d even say it would make more sense to classify olimar as an item character if such a thing exists.
And remember, Mario is a Shoto
As a sonic main, i think sonic falls into 3 archetypes, rushdown, hit and run, and bait and punish, depending on how you play him.
Sonic totally fits the rushdown and bait and punish, thats how i play him
sonic isn’t rushdown cuz he’s supposed to get to the corner of the stage and spin charge, that’s his game plan. no way is he rushdown
@@fivenightsatminecraft9615 Says who, folks take his normals for granted when he has plenty of combo starters for him to not be campy...for crying out loud he's the fastest character. C.Falcon is the second fastest and we don't see people playing campy with him😒😢
@@fivenightsatminecraft9615 Sorry but I gotta disagree with that
Sonic can be played rushdown but the sad part is how most Sonic players use it for camping.
Really helpful video. Just one thing tho...
Game, when you select Ryu: REE - U
Red Gaming: RAH - EE - U
lol
@@kid14346 I'm not OP, so your comment is useless to me.
If you want to provide feedback, comment to his video or make your own. Good day :)
i searched for a video like that and never really found one and yours is exactly what i was looking for!
Maybe putting characters into archetypes based on what the character IS, rather than what the character is TRYING TO DO IN GAME, isn't really a greeeat way to do it. Yeah, Roaslina & Luma is a 'Puppeteer' character. But with their large hitboxes, I'd be more inclined to place them under 'Precision.'
I think there only really need to be 4 archetypes, based on what the character is generally going to try to do during a game:
All-Rounder - has a varied moveset to accommodate for multiple kinds of situations. Sometimes has a projectile. (Mario, Wolf, maybe Ness?)
Zoner - usually is going to be throwing out projectiles and stay away from their opponent. (Link, Samus, Villager)
Grappler - most of their power comes from their grabs. Usually have either a killthrow, grab combos, or both. (Donkey Kong, Luigi, Incineroar)
Rushdown - just get in your opponent's face and juggle them to death. (Fox, Roy, Pikachu)
Anything beyond those could really be reserved for very specific classifications such as:
Captain Falcon is a rushdown character WITHOUT a sword.
-----or-----
Roy is a rushdown character WITH a sword.
I don't agree with the definition of zoner. Some zoners throw projectiles to put you into disadvantage and then attack at close range. They don't necessarily want you to be far all the time as the big damage and kills does not come from their projectiles. I also think there are characters that are hybrid, like King K. Rool. He has characteristics of both Bait and Punish and Zoner.
@God Mode, I agree because I play Incineroar (Grappler/Precision) and Piranha Plant (Trapper)
A zoner should have no incentive to move from the long range unless they need to.
I feel like K rool could also be considered a trapper. He may only have 2 projectiles, but repeatedly throwing them out covers a lot of ground.
This was actually very helpful! I’m just starting to properly play ultimate, and I’ve decided to pick up pit! Thank you for this helpful info!
Congrats man , your vid is ranked #1 at the top of searching “Smash Ultimate”
I think piranha plant is a mix of hit and run with trapper
Luigi isn't a grappler. Sure he gets a lot of mix ups out of his grabs but he does more than just that.
could wii fit be considered dynamic? swapping between a defensive zoning playstyle until she gets deep breathing to kill you at 0?
Yeah she's very similar to shulk in that regard. Also Min Min, who would be a dynamic zoner/precision
@1337 Precisely.
Wii fit is in the useless archtype
Just kidding ;)
When this man said Rye-You 🤦♂️
I was struggling to grasp archetypes and this video helped me out a lot! Do you think you could go over how different archetypes are against each other? It is the only other thing I am confused about. The things about each archetype are quite clear to me after your amazing video!
Wdym?
@@sptflcrw8583 Archetypes have different strengths and weaknesses, I meant that I would love to see a video going over the strengths and weaknesses of archetypes and how those strengths and weaknesses can be exploited by other archetypes.
@@quichen2271 very few characters fit directly into one archetype, and instead are homogenizations of various different archetypes. Even then, archetype matchups vary based on the game. For example, in some games, grapplers tend to beat rushdown characters, while the opposite holds true for others.
Ever since I had Ultimate, I've had a difficult time choosing which main would fit my playstyle. I picked between Joker, Yoshi, Falco and Dark Pit, before I finally found my perfect main, Sephiroth, the glass cannon. The one-winged angel has been dominating the competition like crazy. This man is a really fun swordfighter.
He isn't really your Typical Glass Canon tho. He is Big wich means he has a Big Shield. His slender Frame makes him no real combo food and doesn't let him get Shield poked to heavily. He has high Priority Attacks wich are really disjointed and snap Away Projectiles and guard from other moves and he has a Counter as a Landing and offstage defense mixup. He also has no bad Disadvantage and has Hyper Armor and a Third Jump with His Winged Form. He is a Hyper Defensive Light Weight that lives way longer then even Poor Recovery Heavys like Incineroar or Ganondorf. So would you still call him a Glass Canon. His Defense is just pure Playmaking and not beeing stupidly Heavy like Bowser or Donkes Kong.
@@anigodzapex9384 Eh, now that you mention it, he's not a glass cannon. He has all sorts of advantages and disadvantages but he makes up for them quickly. You just have to make sure that you know what you're doing with him.
@@lajazziamacklin8418 He fits the Prescision Archtype to perfect. He has slender Hitboxes, and Timing Based Attacks. Everything a Septh does is Prescision!
@@anigodzapex9384 Yep. I've had PERFECT timing and precision on my attacks thanks to Sephiroth. One time I killed Cloud when he tried to get back on the Omega Form of Ryu's stage and Gigaflare instantly caught and launched him straight off the stage. Heck, I can now detect when my opponents will get back on the stage and then I go in for the kill with Gigaflare and Megaflare. My playstyle is playing defensively and aggressively.
PS: The Spirits I use for my main are Sirius, Karel and Aerith. This Spirit Setup makes Sephiroth incredibly powerful, especially when he's fighting against Level 1 CPUs in Smash and Tourney Mode.
Why do people act like even half of these are archetypes, I still don't get. Precision, Trapper, and Zoners are all zoners precision just being a normal zoner with the other two being projectile zoners. Bait & Punish and Hit & Run have never been archetypes they are playstyles not archetypes. Using Greninja as it was an example, he would rather stay in your face after the combo if possible to get more damage while you are still scared/panicking.
"Dynamic" is not a thing, that is just a stance character of which Shulk is not he is a normal zoner (precision). Each stance having an archetype culminating in a character with a more diverse mix of play.
Mix-up is hardly an archetype in normal fighting games and just is not one in smash due to the lack of diversity of defensive mechanics throughout history.
Puppet characters fitting the same thing as stance being that it explains the character but the not playstyle/win condition being that you could have a grappler puppet character like Ice Climbers and what ever Rosa is because I personally don't get the character.
4:37 as your description implies you don't really know what makes a grappler. Grapplers main traits are a difficulty of approach, being scary when close, and an explosive damage output. The second is achieved via mixups commonly through command grabs that can't be teched in traditional fighters which is why they are referred to as "grapplers".
Footsies is just a all-rounder/shoto. Mind that that does not mean Ken/Ruy/Terry are an all rounder. It just means they are not Footsie characters. All of them are rushdowns with Ryu being the closest to an all-rounder out of the three.
I'll give you rushdown, zoner, grappler, and All-rounder though. Though Mario is far to combo oriented to ever be a all-rounder.
It’s about time someone did this, it’s so satisfying to organize them all like this, amazing job Red
You're telling me, I hate it when people categorize them by "TIERS".
I think a Glass Cannon character doesn't help categorize an "archetype" of a character, as the way you explained it only really describes a characters attributes than playstyle. Yes, maybe the implication is that a character dying faster means they must play safer, but a glass cannon character can be anything, it literally just depends if your character is heavy or not and if they deal a lot of damage. Mythra is a glass cannon who is mainly Rushdown, same with Fox and Pika, but their playstyles are wildly different than that of Mewtwo, Olimar, and Sephiroth. Yes, a character can have more than one archetype, but that would imply they have similar aspects in playstyles, and in this case, the only shared attribute is their damage output and weight.
Really great video, very descriptive and yet succinct
Dk, Incineroar, Ridley, Bowser, Ganondorf can also fill in the grappler archetype aswell.
Ridley isn’t too much of a grappler as he doesn’t benefit as heavily as certain other grapplers from a grab. DK I heavily agree should be considered a grappler.
@@johnfkennedy1478 Agreed , but side b can be a good kill option
@@samarthgour3026 But that’s a command grab, plus Bowser’s command grab is better. I think the archetype of grappler is more suited for characters that can spend the whole game fishing for grabs and benefit heavily off of them.
@@johnfkennedy1478 shoot how did forget bowser
joker is rushdown? sure, when he has big bad dad but he has so many tools to camp
I feel like he failed to mention that many archetypes can fit one character. Rush down would go more to someone like shiek, fox, or pika. This game is a little more complex than that tough. A good character should be able to dabble in 3-4 archetypes or have some of their features
I’m not at a disadvantage without luma in most situations only when I’m grabbed or when I’m in a combo or to block attacks most attacks and combos stay relatively the same
For me there is only 2 archetypes
1. People who play the game
2. Campy piece's of s**t
Those are playstyles
What about me? I can’t play the game, but I’m not a campy piece of shit
@@AshenDust_ by play the game I mean actually approach and try to fight
But camping IS playing the game. As much as i hate it, it is a viable option.
Fucking Y Link.
@@hollowneko9795 it's a joke, I understand that every character "plays the game " and the camping is a strategy
Camping is a huge part of Joker's playstyle. To call him just a rushdown down plays his zoning. He's actually more Shoto/all-rounder than what you'd initially assume.
I think K. Rool is a Mix-Up character, he has multiple tools like his projectiles, his suck for his cannon which can kill, suck and cuck, and throw the opponent of stage, he also has very damage and knock back heavy smash attacks which are another tool, combined with his diverse aerials, along with crazy recovery which can damage and throw the opponent into the blast zone, with super armor for moves like, nair, and dash attack, and combined with a counter that can also deflect, it’s a mix-up character, easily.
I feel like Ryu, Ken, and Terry should have their own archetype because of how differently they play.
Yeah
Pretty sure that’s just called the Shotos lol
@@kardersamson9035
Terry is not a Shoto,
Shoto is a fighting style ONLY for
STREET FIGHTER!
You could also just called them input characters or analog characters. Doesn't really matter.
@@pedrojackson8416 Even if officially he isn’t, the term is very widely used to describe him as well
Luigi is a grappler for his over privileged grab that has ridiculously little end lag where Samus and Lucas have a brunch until its over.
Loved this video. But i think the "precision" character are better categorized as "mid-range"
Would there be a sort of “floater” category for fighters that like to remain airborne (so, Kirby, Jigglypuff, Sora, Meta Knight and the like) in opposition to the groundies?
IMO Link is more of a trapper than a zoner
I completely agree
I was kinda hoping there'd be some sort of graphic to make this easier to keep up with like in the thumbnail. I was going into this thinking there was gonna be quick analytics of each character and defining who they're more effective against and who they aren't
"Turning the arena into a chessboard calculating where they are going" 3:24 and one example is Simon.....
Yeah because they aren't in a corner spamming all the buttons and throwing all the shit posible
Yup they have special spamming flowchart they use regardless of the character they fight against with Up B and Dtilt "get off me". They are a very polarizing character, you either have the tools to fight them or don't. My main Bowser feels very difficult, but my secondary Wolf does great against them.
I think zelda can also be counted as a puppetere since his phantom guard is basically like a puppet since its so important to zeldas gameplay
I play link a character who i would honestly put in two of the archetypes those being zoner of course and trapper because of his bomb being an ever presents stage hazard that he can manipulate in many diffrent ways and his boomerang is some thing that the opponent constantly has to be mindful of especially when it is coming back to link
So a trap-zoner. Like Snake and Isabelle.
I barely even consider link a zoner when nair exists. Link plays a bit like a zoner to start a lot of games before playing almost a hit and run style with his trapping.
@@holdenchambers3986 by that point. Link can be classified as an all-rounder, since you can play him at any range and play styles to great effects.
Im gonna play mii gunner as rushdown and you can't stop me
I can see Incineraor as a grapler. I would even see him as a rush down character if he wasn't so slow
In all fairness, fast incineroar would be horrifying
@@FlameAtGames but good
I love Hero because he doesn’t fit anywhere really. He’s sort of a zoner by default, but with acceleratle he can do rushdown and with oomph/psyche up he can be a brutal bait and punish pick. I guess he’s kind of a stance character but not really. He’s wacky and he’s my favorite
He’s a gimmick character
I highly dissagree with link as a zoner, he typically uses his projectiles to trap and force the opponent into a lose-lose situation rather than try to purely zone.
Nice Profile picture
@@exaltedfalcheon1793 thanks. I can't remember where I found it though
@@holdenchambers3986 Young link and toon are more of zoners
Botw Link is a trapper
That’s actually what zoners are, this guy is just kind of an idiot.
@@sptflcrw8583 Zoners are all about keeping you out of their face. Link doesn't fight effectively from that far away. His projectiles aren't meant to keep you out. They are just to make you get impatient and mess up, or use a returning boomerang or a bomb to force you into a situation you can't win. Arrow is almost exclusively used to make the opponent burn options offstage. If you're playing link as a full zoner you either suck at the game or you are playing vs heavies/Ryu/ken/terry
I know Luigi has that 0 to death combo off his grab but can he really be considered a true grappler? That combo depends on how low the opponents’ damage percentage is to be the most consistent too so if they’re high enough Luigi doesn’t have an incentive to specifically setup for grabs anymore outside of your regular grab punishes whereas a character like Incineroar would want to grab you as often as possible throughout the entire match regardless of your damage percentage.
Many archetypes can fit one character. I think he covered a basic beginner level video of “archetypes” neutral is a whole topic on its own, but your character should be able to do a little bit of everything if he to be a top tier or higher.
You know it's a well made game when even little Mac, the most straightforward character in the game, fits perfectly into at least three different categories.
Me, a main Mythra user: Ugh, I keep struggling with Samus.
Me, after watching the video: I see why people have secondaries. It sounds a good idea to pick one to counter those samuses.
I liked the video, awesome stuff!
Mythra beats Seamus though
But how do you know which archetype is strong against your main, in order to choose a secondary
lol they forgot to mention that important part as well as include the chart in the thumbnail
I really don’t agree with the archetype system for smash. Look at joker for example. The chart says he’s a rushdown character, but that’s just not true. Most high level joker players use his broken mobility and hitboxes to bait approaches and cover options. Jokers at his best when he threatens an option rather than when he’s actually using it. So how do you classify that? You can’t. He can play too many different ways. Lots of characters end up like this. They can play in a way that defies their supposed archetype. DK can create a wall with bair rather than grappling, bowser can rushdown, young link can bait and punish.
Ness main here. I would argue that he is a mix up character. You never know when he's suddenly going to throw out thunder or a tricky double jump cancel to pk fire. Magnet gives him so many movement options. Watch Bestness ledge stall sometime. He makes good players look like they're in disadvantage while he's on ledge because he has so many options. Yes he has that mean back throw but setting up grabs isn't his main focus.
Ness is more of a half-grappler or bait and punish character than mix up
Multiple archetypes can fit a character. Ness has some brawler features, and has kill throws as well. I’d say he is classified as a light weight, floaty brawler with disjoints and projectiles
This makes me feel moderately less bad about playing Marth like he is a rushdown.
I thought you were going to tell us what archetypes every archetype was strong and weak against.
Currently rush down, but my comfort characters are all-around and precision. I currently main Joker but I may switch back to Mario or Marth eventually.
This guide made me instantly sub, amazing quality. Your energy gives you a lot of potential, if you keep up the guide videos, and throw in a few comedy style videos(think Little Z or Choctopus or something) and BOOM. One of the greats.
Yep, 3 best smash channels
Awesome video, very smart : I will finally choose my main !
bait and punish isnt an archetype, its a playstyle
Yeah, but it just so happens that certain characterw can only work efficiently by playing this way, because they suck at anything that isnt punishment.
when I realize both of my mains are hit and run characters and that personally blends in with my personality
Bro Joker's not a RUshdown character oh my gosh...
Great video tho
arguable
Yes he is. That’s one of the things he actually got correct.
@@raybobillo4908 def not, leo being rushdown =/= Joker being rushdown. He’s honestly more of a hit & run
You did NOT just say “Rai-you” in 2021
The diagram in the thumbnail sounds like a cool way to categorize characters in other fighting games too :)
2:14 "They'll be in your face the whole match"
Not if my Mega Man has anything to say about it
Excuse me!? Why aren't you more popular? This Video was absolute professional. You deserve much more attention for this kind of content. I hit that bell so hard!
While the vid was good, it's too complicated. Half of these archetypes could be put into one category. For ex: zoner and trapper as they both use projectiles
Simple solution: main, like, half of the entire roster!
I always think of Little Mac as the poster boy of glass cannons. He's gonna kill you at 30%, but you're gonna get him even earlier by gimping his recovery. A little Mac game often boils down to a horrific slaughter-fest whether or not it's Mac doing the slaughtering.
The comments reconfirmed that smash players don’t care about the actual accuracy of things, they just care about mincing the meaning of definitions and words to prove they “know more” about smash and “prove others wrong” because they’re more “experienced” and/or “better/smarter”
Dude, I tried making something like this for myself and you just put it to shame! This is awesome!
2:38 greninja is more a mix between rush down and whiff punish
Very informative. Since Inkling's a hit and run character, it's best to keep a safe distance and pressure opponents with the Splattershot and strike whenever there's an opening.
Soo i just logged in to TH-cam and it was at the top of my recommendation. Thank you for making this.
I play Zero Suit Samus and she's like a mixture of rushdown and bait and punish because she pressures with speed, but also baits and punishes with strong kill options
1:56 there are four. Kirby is one of them
Just saying, picking up a secondary shouldn’t be your first option for bad mu’s. Try the mu with your main, and then decide if you like it or not
Lucario’s fits to be a glass cannon. Most of his winning gambits are practically sudden deaths.
As someone who plays Lucas and G&W and is starting to pick up Meta Knight, I hope this video helps me choose my characters better.
I like this video. Pretty informative. I just wish you mentioned which archetypes counter another archetype.
Its not set in stone. It’s character dependent
I do agree that Terry is a footsie, but the biggest mistake you can make in a Terry matchup is underestimating him in the air. He's almost halfway from Ryu to Captain Falcon.
Truly there are only three play types. Rushdown. Bait and punish. And a mix.
"Pick a secondary to cover those weaknesses"
Oh! I just have my secondary as secondary favorite to play
That works too! You'd really just need a secondary that covers your main's weaknesses if you're looking to make money by winning tournaments.
@@redgerran Is a secondary a defined thing by tournaments? I figured it was just a loose term for "my other main"
@@kylespevak6781 It can be either or. You'll see pro players have a secondary specifically to handle matchups their main can't handle. (For instance, a Pikachu main might pick up another character that has an easier time against Ness players) But a secondary can also mean your second-favorite character on the roster.
@@redgerran I'm pretty decent with the entire roster, and I have like 15 characters I rotate around with, and like 4 mains 😂
Steve might actually be Dynamic but not explicitly like the stance/form change characters you mentioned. He has options to trap, bait and punish, zone, hit and run, rush down, and even turtle. The caveat is that they ALL tend to take both time and resources, so you have to pick one of them at any given moment.
Very interesting concept, but I disagree strongly with many of your opinions about where you put specific characters. This might be because I approach the game from a competitive view, but there are many views here that are contrary to the general consensus between top players. For example, Palu is most certainly not a mix-up character; her neutral is incredibly simple. It works because each individual option is so strong, NOT because she has many versatile tools she can use to condition and confuse you, as you defined the mix-up category as. In neutral, Palu mostly relies on spaced and landed fair or bair, dash attack to whiff-punish, grab, and maybe neutral b.
Also, if a primary purpose of this video was to help people pick a secondary to cover the weaknesses of their primary based on their archetypes, why not talk about which archetype matchups? Like, most real rush-down characters have good approach options and often can break through a zoner's gameplan, leading to a favorable mu there. It confuses me why this wasn't covered in the video at all.
Robin being a trapper makes total sense.