Just saying Man O War’s name gives me goose bumps. I have read anything and everything I could get my hands on about him since I was 9 yrs old. There is nothing underrated about him. He raced under the conditions of 100 years ago with tracks not being as well groomed as they are today, no starting gates, iron shoes, and the many records he broke were broken with his jockeys restraining him. He was never allowed to extend himself to his fullest. Mr. Riddle was always afraid he would hurt himself. Like someone stated before Man O War raced 100 years ago and we still talk about him, compare present day horses to him, and he still contributes, and breeders are excited, to have his bloodline in their horses. Underrated, I definitely think NOT!!!
Absolutely. I will always remember reading of the race where they didn't use gates, and the starter was a newbie, so Man O War got started later than the other horses, and he still managed to come in second. He had heart. You can't just look at number of races or who they ran against, you have to look at HOW the horse ran the race.
@@galenjoyce8895 Yup. But remember, it's OVERrated, not bad. I think Sec and Ruffian are overrated, but that just means "gets more accolades than should".
You piqued my interest until Ruffian. The fact that she beat some sub par competition is irrelevant when you are setting new stakes records in all of your stakes race starts. What that shows is in the history of those particular races she ran faster than every winner before her...without being pressed by her competition. Imagine the times she would have had if she was forced by her competition. Don't forget she tied the track record during her very first race at 5 1/2 furlongs, winning by 15 lengths. She set records from 5 1/2 furlongs up to 1.5 miles, showing her amazing versatility.I saw her run multiple times in the 70's and she was the greatest filly I ever saw!! It was unfortunate what happened to her in the match race and I actually cried that day, but I honestly think she was getting better as she aged and who knows what the future would have held for her. Also Foolish Pleasure had the same regular jockey in Jacinto Vasquez. He chose to ride Ruffian in the match race because he thought she was the better horse. Who better knows this than the jockey who rode both of them!
THIS. On top of Secretariat's trainer saying that she may even be better than Big Red (!), Ruffian was one of those once in a century horses. The Queen of the Sport of Kings and to me...she is in my ALL TIME TRIUMVIRATE with Secretariat and Man o'War.
EXACTLY she may not have run against much altho I thought hot and nasty was a good filly she beat all the greats who had the records from her races before her
It shows she was better than girls her own age. That’s what those stake records were. Ruffian did not prove anything beyond that. Compare to Top Flight, up to July of her 3yo season. Tell me who was better.
Yeah, but her times often wouldn’t have beat the stronger male competition. Example, ruffian had a “stakes record” at the 1975 coaching club oaks at 1 1/2 miles at 2:27 4/5. But Forego, the 1975 horse of the year won the Woodward at 2:27 1/5, 3/5 better. The jockey argument is also terrible. John Velasquez chose to ride Verazano over orb in the 2013 Kentucky derby. Orb won. While verazano finsihed 14th, that means nothing.
First Man of War ran on tracks that were no better than plowed fields & to achieve this excellence exceeds comprehension Second look at him that I've never seen a more defined Massive Neck & Chest + I've NEVER seen a bigger Nostrils & Lung cavity as Man of War he must've inhaled air by the gallon full, which would account for his speed & stamina They compared his Angle of Stride to Secretariat --- MAN OF WAR 88 degrees -- Secretariat 110 degrees which doesn't mean anything if you want the Exact comparison you compare Stride Distance the amount of distance a horse covers in a single stride that's the true comparison if possible Secretariat like ALL Champion racehorses is 24-25 feet that has been the standard especially in record breaking performances BUT Man of War's was 28.5 feet the longest stride ever recorded by a racehorse this fact & his physiology is what drove me to understand he was then & is now the Greatest Horse of the Century
@@ralo1001z Absolutely correct!!! That is my point this angle business is inaccurate & deceiving it's a way of citing something irrelevant. Man O War with a 28.5 foot stride is phenomenal No Horse in History had that. Always remember one thing this is very important - in prep for the Potomac Handicap his last two work outs were withheld kept secret because he did something no horse has done the 1st was ran 3/4's - 6 furlong in 108 3/5's actually impossible at time 3 days the blew him out a quarter mile aka 2 furlongs In 20 1/5 No Horse can do that No Horse can run that fast let alone in 1920. I could go on even into the breeding pen suffice to say He's a Real LEGEND a LIVING FLAME 🔥 that just was the Standard for GOD LIKE PERFECTION
When mentioning about secret about ManOWar do not forget the big Secret of SecretAriat which he had planned to demolish the field in the Belmont Stakes thus highlighting him the greatest of the greatest ever do remember the secret of SecretAriat was his HEART by being able to pump blood more efficiently thus making him travel like a missile not even a ManOWar could have catch him long story short
Also, unlike most racehorses of today, Man O' War was a fighter! If a horse was in front of him, he wanted to annihilate it. He never gave up - no matter what the weight, or the ground - he'd run himself to death, if he was given the chance...which he wasn't.
In closing Man of War & Ruffian should never be in a overrated category --- Ruffian was certainly a living flame 🔥 you couldn't watch her workout or run without Her taking your breathe away that was especially evident with Breeders Trainers Jockeys Race People who watched her live, I consider myself Proud & Privileged to have known Her. But!!!!! Even Her & Champions of the prior & present Era couldn't compare to the IMMORTAL "MAN OF WAR" as Will Harbat called him "THE MOSTEST HORSE" a Horse of the Century or really The HORSE OF A LIFETIME
I agree. Those two horses are legendary and they ran their hearts out in their races. Ruffian ran her heart out and she never gave up in her match race.
@@PhoenixAscending Robert in all candor I did for a couple of Decades and by the way I worked at the track and saw him often but I also saw Sham & Angle Light - Riva Ridge - Key to the Mint (who I used to Hot Walk) etc etc ALL of them weren't even close to RUFFIAN ask Lucien Loren & Ron Turcotte & Eddie Maple when Whiteley (the S.O.B) was forced to make available when he was going to work HER all those Ppl I just mention came out & watched along with the most of the Barn Area the rail was 2 deep to watch Her one time she worked 5f. In 56 4/5 horses don't do that in a race let alone a work. As much as I could go on & to be honest I was in Awe of RUFFIAN like no other even my favorite at the time Forego I was a friend of Hellidoro Gustines (GUS) and at the time she was better. But with all that said She could never beat MAN O WAR you see there are Good horses there are Great horses there are Champions BUT THEN THERE'S ONE A ***LEGEND and that's MAN O WAR
Ruffian was not only the best filly all time and as a 2year old she was the greatest horse ever.... It s ad that the suits in Belmont worried about money instead of the horse. She was a special animal who was took away far to early, Eight Belles too.
@@Deznutz6969 Your on a somewhat right track Joe D with your observation but if you stood next to her and have her gaze into your eyes you'd get shivers at first when she turned her head in the stall & looked at me she kinda made me feel like Who the Hell are You What the Hell You looking at. Over the months that turned into her head bobbin & licking + chewing a sign of affection until Whiteley chased me away in the beginning he threw a bridle at me then he kinda gave up threatened shouted swore eventually gave up I came by everyday even on Saturday & Sunday rain or shine--She was like watching lightening in a bottle wanting to get out. You mentioned eight bells might want to mention Ivory Wand
@@vernonfrance2974 his list of overrated horses was the reason, nobody in their right mind would have his top 3 on that list and many people have them on the best ever list. Look up those horses and see for yourself
@@vernonfrance2974 to put his top 3 horses on that list he’s gotta be wanting feedback on how utterly ridiculous it is to have those horses on that list!
@@vernonfrance2974 I’m gonna give you an example of what nonsense his list is- Ruffian either met or set records in 9 out of her 10 races some of them still stand today almost 50 years later
@@johnwalsh3215 Man O War did not have much competition nor did Ruffian. Man O War lost to an average horse named Upset and Ruffian raced against the males only once. As Sketchy said, it was not a stellar crop of fillies and mares that ran against her. Of course, getting out on a loose lead is the ideal set up and that is what Ruffian enjoyed in every race. She failed to switch leads at times down the stretch. California Chrome sure did exceed expectations so I think he was not overrated but underrated and toward the end a bit hyped but if it had not been for losing to Toast of New York and Arrogate he would have gone down and as a really great horse. I think American Pharoah should be listed as one of the most overrated horses of all time for the same reason as Ruffian. Not great opposition and he usually had an uncontested lead. When he didn't, he lost which we will not know about Ruffian since she was not tested severely. If you include European horses I feel Frankel was overrated. He never went to the mainland and usually had his own pace setter. He ended up beating mostly the same horses over and over.
@@fugetabouit663 2009 was synthetic. 2010 was dirt and thats when she lost against a good (not elite) dirt horse. Theres no excuse to her. She was great but not one of the best.
@@jujudeck You can only beat the competition given. She would beat your favorites I'm sure. Let me guess your a Rachel Alexandra type. 🙄 Plus she stumbled out the gate and made ton of ground and almost got there. Sound really biased my boy.
I don’t think anyone claims Ruffian is “the greatest race horse ever.” But most would put her at the top of the filly list. To call her overrated is simply shortsighted. She had blazing speed as well as tremendous versatility winning at distances from 5 1/2 furlongs to 1.5 miles, while setting track or stakes records in the process. She’s the highest filly ranked in the top 100 races horses of the 20th century, & that’s for obvious reasons, she was brilliant.
Yes, Ruffian was the highest ranked (#35) female on the 1999 Blood-Horse list. The other fillies/mares on that list: Busher #40 Gallorette #45 Personal Ensign #48 Dahlia #50 Susan's Girl #51 Twilight Tear #59 Cicada #62 Top Flight #66 All Along #68 Shuvee #70 Regret #71 Go For Wand #72 Lady's Secret #76 Two Lea #77 Gallant Bloom #79 Ta Wee #80 Affectionately #81 Miesque #82 Gamely #87 Bewitch #89 Devona Dale #90 Genuine Risk #91 Artful #94 Bayakoa #95 Beldame #98 I am American, but the title of that Blood-Horse book, which is sitting right next to me ("Top 100 Racehorses of the 20th Century") irks me no end. It is *not* a list of the greatest racehorses of the 20th century: it is a list of the greatest North American-raced horses. (Even more accurately, a list of the greatest Thoroughbreds who made at least one start on the flat in North America in the 20th century, but that is admittedly unwieldy.) I am not a politically correct type, but that title is arrogantly U.S.-centric. Difficult though it is to compare dirt and turf racing, it is patent that the likes of Ribot, Sea Bird, Mill Reef, Brigadier Gerard, are greater than most of America's dirt horses -- and maybe better than any of them.
@@robertsmale3714 Thanks for making the suggested edit; I have made my own. It's the title, rather than the list as such, that antagonizes me. It's certainly valid to make a list of the best horses to ever have raced in North America. I will note that the list/book does include horses that were turf specialists -- some that raced exclusively in the U.S. such as Round Table and Fort Marcy, and others such as Phar Lap and Dahlia, who raced primarily overseas, on grass, but who either briefly visited the U.S. or who were transferred to N. America for extended times. Those four are not the only grass horses included. But yes, the list is top heavy with dirt horses, for the reason you mention.
@@robertsmale3714 I agree. Secretariat was male turf champion in 1973. In his two starts on grass, he toyed with very good turf horses; IMO, his dominance on grass as well as dirt is one of the arguments supporting him being GOAT. Turcotte thought he was 10 to 15 lengths better on grass (!) than on dirt. I readily concede, though, there are other horses for whom a reasonable case can be made that they were GOAT. Kelso and Dr. Fager, both of whom have supporters for being GOAT, likewise won on grass while being campaigned primarily on dirt.
I’m an Aussie - I don’t overhype horses like crazy. In my time I believe I’ve seen 3 dead set world class would give anything a run at their best distance since the mid to late 90’s - Might & Power, Black Caviar & Winx. There’s been a few other horses (So You Think etc) that are amazing - but I believe I’ve seen 3 champions. Winx was 1 of em. I know she only raced in Australia and if she faced world class opposition every start she would t have won 30 in a row or whatever the number was - but she was a freak. Running sectionals that just don’t make sense. 4 Cox Plates - 2 track records, a record winning margin & a record 4th straight Cox Plate. I’m not even a big Winx fan. She didn’t grab me like others - but she was a freak
Also an Aussie, the champions I've seen live at the track were Super Impose, Better Loosen Up, Sunline, Octgonal, Northerly, Might and Power, Saintly, Lohnro, So You Think, Makybe Diva, Kingston Town, Kingston Rule, Black Caviar, Let's Elope and many more over the 80's and 90's. Of those, the only ones I will say that were world champions or at their peak the best in the world are Better Loosen Up (beat the worlds best in the Japan Cup), Sunline, Black Caviar, Might and Power and Let's Elope. I don't rate Winx, beat up on terrible fields and refused to travel.
Man O’War didn’t run in the Derby because the owner despised the length of the race at such a young age, and he considered Kentucky backwater and “West” compared to Maryland and especially New York. He lightened up when it came to War Admiral. Man O’War would’ve slaughtered the Derby if he ran considering he beat all the competitors easily as a two year old.
@@DanielSong39 The horses who won the Triple Crown before it was decided are still credited. And Matt Winn (manager of Churchill Downs at the time) was begging for Man O’War to run. Actually, Man O’War wasn't even run until the Preakness.
I really like your videos! Sorry about Ruffian being included though - she will always be a Queen to me. For me, the greatest horse of the 20th century was Citation. He will always be my GOAT. Arcaro stated that he never really let him run.
Glad you like my vids, nothing wrong with having Ruffian as a personal favorite she resonated with a lot of people. Picking Citation as the GOAT is something i've never really heard before but at the same time it suprises me it hasn't happened more often. He was always the third wheel in the GOAT debate but he was still truly one of the best.
I agree with you about Ruffian... And about Citation being the greatest, the same Arcaro said that NO HORSE could have beaten Secretariat in Belmont 1973. It doesn't necessarily mean that Secretariat was the GOAT, though.
I was waiting for Justify, Arrogate I agree, Bayern agree. I have many unpopular opinions about racehorses though. Owners are so quick to send horses to the shed these days, I am glad we got enjoy Chrome, Zenyatta, Gun Runner etc for a while.
Your absolutely right , Zenyatta , they were ducking Rachel Alexander, in fact they asked Zenyatta to come to Saratoga to run in the Woodward stakes with Rachel Alexander and they declined. Rachel won races on many different race tracks.
Yup the guy who made the video is a clown. And Zenyatta was the best female ever. If you can reel in the best boys in the world twice she would have reeled ruffian in also
@natecottrell5905then you don't know much of horse racing. Ruffian was a fast two year old like MANY. BECAUSE SHE BROKE DOWN, peoples judgment are clouded . Ruffian was no faster than MELAIR,but people don't talk about Melair being the best .
@@marklewen9384 It woukd be a close race on a good ground, zenyatta had that darrel green overtake speed,.where Ruffian was more like Usian Bolt with long strides and gate blast speed. Hard to say but we will never knkw as bs womens lib and ego killed Ruffian.
@@alivstyson1864 best female ever? She might be in a top 5 argument for her generation... but only for the 4 or 5 position... she won 18 of her 19 race wins against other fillies and mares... best ever? Very very no
California Chrome has a lot of fans because he ran a lot of races I'd like to see a horse race 20 times and lose a few than see him race like 5 or 10 times and win most of them
Yes, I think this is a big problem in racing, that's eating away at the sport. We watch for the horses mostly, not the jockeys or trainers or owners. But the horses get retired early because they care more about cashing in at the breeding barn than about the sport.
@@desolatefox As a fan I support horses like Chrome and I also support those who argue that he's the best Flightline 6 races LOL. Those are Candy Ride numbers But you can't blame the owners for not risking the breeding value. Discreet Cat was a worldbeater for 6 races too. He did not have a 7th race in his body. I suspect it was a similar case for Flightline (and Candy Ride)
@@DanielSong39 California Chrome is indisputably a great horse, a deserving Hall of Famer. But he may not even have been the best horse of his crop. Plenty of people, myself included, believe or suspect that Shared Belief was more talented. I admit we don't know that for sure, with all the misfortune that befell Shared Belief. California Chrome had a lot more opportunity to prove himself.
@@marysueeasteregg Proper management and durability is a part of a horse's legacy California Chrome was able to run in and win more big races than anyone, that has to count for something
Ruffian is not supposed to be forgotten her breakdown in the match race goes to show the speed she was travelling at what a filly what a horse I will always hold her near and dear to my heart nuff said
This 🤡 has no clue.I was there n Ruffian smashed her head into the gate on the break.Its amazing she could even continue much less pass F P.Id seen her 4 times n I promise u she would've put away F.P. n it wouldn't have been close.She was never asked for more,not once.This guy never saw her,I did.Thats all. . .
@@noelharris1177I still believe that Ruffian broke down due to a pigeon flying in front of the two horses at that exact time. I think this freaked her a bit and caused the slightest of missteps. There's at least one video on TH-cam out there that shows a head on of the two horses, and the bird crosses just as she breaks down. I could be wrong though on that being the cause.
@@richd3044 She might've.Her bloodline especially her dam,Shenanigans,had some bone problems, especially sesamoid bones,n that was probably (imo) what caused her breakdown.Guess we'll never truly know. . .
Let me guess, you're a Secretariat fan right?! You want responses, here it is. I think the term great is thrown around way too much. So, I would agree with your assessment of California Chrome. Bayern should be on noone's top 100 list. I think our last "great" horse was Easy Goer. Now, with that said, you seem to be almost hypocritical in your assessment of field sizes and who was behind, for example Ruffian. How many fillies broke a record and won big every start? Zenyatta, like Secretariat, were overrated because they both were endearing. You bash Man O' War, the greatest, because of field size, he broke 8 records, I believe Ruffian and Swaps, at 4, broke as many, he wore heavier shoes, tracks weren't so polished and noone wanted to run against him. So, for the best, I think I'll believe the people that wrote about actually SEEING him in person, as opposed to someone who puts him and Ruffian as overrated. I agree Arrogate is definitely overrated. I think racing has changed over the past couple of decades, hence horses aren't really bred anymore to run, all the money to make in the breeding shed. And I would submit, most of the top "great" horses came after Man O'War, when they actually raced unlike post 1973. Especially when talking about just 3 year olds. Now, if you want to talk 2, how many 2 year olds carried 130 pounds like the #1 horse and standard......that would be Man O' War.
You raise some great points and legitimate critiques so I’ll try my best. You are definitely right that I’ve never seen any of these horses in person. Mainly because most ran before I was born so can’t really control that. Being a younger racing definitely does influence certain picks it might mean I don’t know how it felt to see them in person but it can also be reversed and say it could make me more unbiased since I have less nostalgia. It’s double edged sword. For Ruffian and how many fillies broke a record every time they raced you got me their. Best I got for that is at best they were all records for female horses or stakes records. Not many of them are unisex records. Definitely no doubt either way Ruffian was one of the greatest fillies but I draw the line at “greatest of all time.” For Man O War I’m glad you chose to pick that one because not many people had anything to say about him surprisingly. For who he ran against its definitely true he scared almost everyone off by his 3 year old year. Key word being almost since Riddle deliberately ducked having Man O War race Exterminator. For the heavier shoes and unrefined tracks I’ve been waiting for someone to bring that up because it’s 100% true he would’ve ran faster with modern track and horse shoe customs. But at best this would only subtract 1-2 seconds. Which with the exception of his run in the Travers Stakes it would still not be enough for record range by modern standards. It would put him as by far the best of his day. And his high weight carrying as a 2 year old is something no modern horse could take away from him. Even if they can take away all his records. but i still wouldn’t call him the greatest of all time. I appreciate you found parts to agree and disagree to make a very well rounded and knowledgeable comment. If theirs one other question to answer you brought up “last great horse.” You made a pretty good choice in Easy Goer. I would like to know what in your mind puts Cigar, Skip Away, Curlin or more recently Flightline (since people are saying he’s the new greatest of all time) in a tier below that.
@@SketchyTheHorseGuy Fun you responded!!! However, Man O' War did NOT duck Exterminator, fyi. And the horses you mentioned were really really good horses but truly great, I don't think so. And you forgot to answer ME, who do you think is the best and, I believe, tbh, has to influence you in a way. Btw, for whom did they beat, you're absolute right about Man O' War's competition, but with his speed, carrying less weight, lighter shoes, his 28 foot stride (btw, have you seen that bogus stride angle chart someone created?!!!), modern tracks, I'd think about it. Unless your favorite is Secretariat then you will definitely refuse to see facts. Btw, the original Big Red only TWICE was he ridden out. He won 19 of his 21 races under stout pulls. Imagine his speed, ridden out but, that's another point. And Flightline, one impressive race, and they go all hype on the racing world, like they did with Arrogate. Besides he was four, and I don't think you (one) can compare a three year old with a four year old. Just like even though I talked about Man O ' War at 2, (to make a point) but look at Favorite Trick, so, you never know from year to year. And the competition and foal crop, so what. So what if you're so great, you have 1 or 4 horses behind you. Look at the foal crops year after year and only twice has there been a triple crown winner because noone was good enough. So, there it is, my opinions!!! I'm 65, so I've experienced a lot in the past 50 some odd years!!!
@@challloyd215 You had a lot of questions so apologies for missing that one short answer I do believe in Secretariat being the best if that automatically invalidates any bit of knowledge I have out of the window oh well it's my opinion. Long answer is it's not so simple. I believe what Seceratariat did in the Belmont is the greatest race i've ever seen or ever will see which is the basis for my reasoning. If every horse had their best day in a hypothetical race at 1 1/4-1 1/2 I think Secretariat would win. At shorter distances I think Dr.Fager is the greatest especially at 1 mile or 1 1/8 i'd be hard pressed to find a better racehorse with such incredible durability and resilience. And especially if were splitting 3-year-olds and older horses into their own categories. Dr.Fager is to the greatest older horse followed by Kelso, Swaps and the 3 late 70's champs Slew,Affirmed and Bid. (no particular order). I can definitely agree on the Flightline bit because he is super talanted and hes proven a lot in 5 races. More then the average horse but you can't be the greatest of all time in just 5 starts you need a little bit more foundation.
@@SketchyTheHorseGuy Well, it's my experience, respectfully, that when you're (one) is a fan of Secretariat, that Big Red the original is an absolute target. And one race does not the greatest make. But thanks for sharing!!!!!
@@SketchyTheHorseGuy Man o’ War beat Sir Barton, who beat Exterminator. Not the same thing of course, but it does give an indication of what might be expected performance-wise. Riddle didn’t duck Exterminator. Exterminator’s owner refused to race him against Man o’War at weight-for-age weights. Understandable. Man o’ War was no ordinary horse.
I respectfully disagree. First of all no athlete can be compared to Secretariat. I ask, what imagery of pure dominance in any sport, in any event, that can rival the 31 lengths lead coming out of the final turn of the 1973 Belmont? So no one compares to the great Secretariat. Man-O-War is a rare Triple Crown Winner; you can't put him and overrated in the same sentence without the word "not". Finally, Ruffian, as a philly, deserves more respect. Plus I remember balling my eyes out at her match race.
Thank you for your thoughtful video. I commend you for speaking the truth because Man O' War's got some strong supporters (just like Secretariat), and to go against the grain can invite hate. However, when I was googling Man O War vs Secretariat, I came across an interesting website that debunked Man O War and noted his times, against Secretariat's, side by side for comparison. Secretariat easily comes out the winner! Furthermore, the article notes that Man O War's owner managed to dodge a few big races or threatening races and then made excuses for it. The author is thus dubious, and notes that this was all likely done to game the system and avoid big competitors. As well, Man O War's competition was very scarce in the day, because simply not a lot of heavy competition existed back then. Races were small. Secretariat, on the other hand, held his head high valiantly against big competitors. The owners never shirked off from the big competitions. You've echoed this sentiment, though it's still baffling to me that anyone could see MOW as the best and brightest when hew as only for his short period of time. So, yes, I'm ultimately team Secretariat too, but I know that Man O War was well-loved in his time. And I don't want to take that away from him. He probably gave people hope in a time of war-related distress, and his funeral was open casket. He was truly the first great horse hero, so again, no hate. I just believe that Secretariat is the true champion of all time.
he seems to have a dislike for the female greats. Ruffian altho not racing against much beat the clock every single time and if she had competition I believe would still have won every single time. I saw her and it made chills run down my spine, no other horse. except Big Red has ever done that. she was a REAL force of nature
I really wanted to keep silent, but unfortunately, I watched this shit to the end. I endured when they called Arrogate overrated (now the horse has been included in the Hall of fame, according to the author, probably for its beautiful eyes). I sighed heavily when Zenyatta was called overrated (the mare won 19 of 20 starts and is the only mare who won BC, what is it if not history?). But, fuck, Man O War? Are you kidding? 3 world records are bullshit for you? 21:20-1-0. Let's also cram Frankel and the Secretariat in here. Also overrated comrades, right? (sarcasm) Is Ruffian overrated? Just because the filly died at the age of 3 due to an injury? and let's put a bolt on the fact that she won 10 of her 11 starts (she didn't finish in the last one), set records in many and was the 8th winner of the triple triar. The coach of Foolish Pleasure was sure that his colt would have lost if not for the collapse of Ruffian. The coach of the Secretariat himself said "as god as my witness she might be even better than Secretariat." But this is all a joke for you, yes of course.
I think Ruffian is remembered because her very public breakdown caused national mourning and helped to highlight the dark side of what racehorses experience. Even famous racehorses are routinely slaughtered for dog food once they retire. Ruffian is symbolic of the horrible price most of these beautiful animals pay to entertain us for a few minutes. Also Ruffian had tons of personality that even shines through today in her old photographs. She had a lot of adoring fans and she knew it and always tried so hard to make them proud of her! It's hard not to feel heartbroken watching footage of her last deadly race.
Horses that raced on bute/lasix , pain medications legal or not , are over-rated full stop ? So many horses mid seventies up until last few years running on medications ? remember that when gauging great or overrated horses 🐎 soundness and longevity are key when judging great horses
I think Northern Dancer was the first horse to run in the Derby on Lasix - 1964. Everything since then is suspect. Of course, other drugs, legal or not, were common earlier. I don’t think any drugs should be in their systems on race day. Are we trying to determine the best horse or the best pharmacist?
@@johnhoie1 I think we should have races that have no drugs on race day, no exceptions That way we get interesting scenarios where unbeatable superhorses all of a sudden run up the track for no other reason
but BIG RED got beat by ONION a terrible horse so in your logic you could say he was overrated.. Sick of these let's make fans of horse upset and throw in truly great horses while leaving out. ones like Big Brown or Bob Baffert drugged up horses
Gotta love that Seattle Slew - nothing but heart and grit. I don't think Slew would have beat Secretariat in the Belmont, but would have beaten him in the Kentucky Derby, and or the Preakness. They would have been nose on nose at the finish. Slew's son AP Indy and Easy Goer both ran the Belmont in 2:26, just 2 seconds off Secretariats record of 2:24. Slew ran the Belmont on a rain soaked track, and nothing but water and mud, and still finished with a good time -- considering. I should add that American Pharoh ran the Belmont in 2:26 as well.
@@grantp4022 I think Slew would have likely beaten beaten Secretariat at a mile. The classic distances, I am skeptical. "Just two seconds"? That's ten lengths.
No, zenyatta isn't...here are just some horses Zenyatta would never beat: Affirmed, alysheba, cigar,unbridled,holy Bull, skip away, ghost zapper, gun runner, American pharaoh,Flightline, and many more...
Zenyatta lost to blame in the Breeders Cup Classic I give that loss to the jockey more than the horse that is absolutely one of the dumbest damn rides I every seen in my life.
Blame didn't run that great either, didn't have that pop going down that stretch I expected him to win by 5 and he did not fire Had enough to hold on and was pulling away at the wire
I agree. I think truly magnificent racehorses can win graded stakes races on all surfaces and against all kinds of competition (grade one winners from the same country and others outside the country). Believe it or not, I think the best racehorses know what it's like to lose. Horses that are left undefeated either didn't have good competition or had everything go their way.
I disagree with one point here if a horse is undefeated BUT sets records for track or race every single time they beat whomever had the record before them
It was only after Man O'War's one loss that he was deemed by the sports press, horsemen, and racing fans as truly great. Up until then he HAD had things his own way, but when he got left at the post, and then boxed in on the rail, in what was too short of a race to make too many mistakes, he still pressed on, rather than give up, and dang near won the Sanford Memorial, anyway. He had WILL in spades.
Get an all time underrated list going. I’ll say big brown. When you look at top horses of the 21st century nobody talks about brown. It’s absurd. I also think afleet Alex was wildly under appreciated.
Zenyatta......was favored in two Breeders Cup Classics ....in your opinion--- what other female horse would be favored in the Classic.....I can only think of Gallorette, who ran in the 1940's....can you name any other?
I remember handicapping the second classic and gave her like 20% chance. When she went off at odds-on you could have bet on every single other horse in the race and have a big overlay
he really should have her on the underrated list as from the very beginning she was doubted and people threw out all the arguments he has over and over but she just won
@@yukilover91 As a HUGE Rachel fan, no. Everyone knew she wouldn't get 10 furlongs against top class. Jess Jackson learned from his '08 experience with Curlin, that running on "plastic" was not what he wanted for his horses. Rachel could have gone in the distaff that year, but why? Sure it was her distance, but on Polytrack it wouldn't have been her best effort. By 2010 she was clearly not the same horse so that's part of why the 2010 Apple Blossom against Z didn't happen.
That would depend on the surface. In 2009, Z benefitted from "home base" Polytrack. I bet if she had faced Ravens Pass in 2008, I think she would have had an uphill battle to get past him. On dirt, I can think of several fillies or mares who could have been WON in that year's Classic- Princess Rooney (who ran the 1 1/4 Distaff faster than Wild Again did in the Classic) Lady's Secret, and Personal Ensign. Bayakoa would get a nomination too.
I will always be shocked when people say “yeah but who did they beat” to horses who were either walking past their competitors (Zenyatta) or destroying them (MOW and Ruffian) as if the horses get to pick who they face. Here’s the facts: Zenyatta was the epitome of “do what I need to win.” She knew where the wire was and she didn’t win by flashy huge margins because she didn’t need to. Whatever decisions her owners made to place her in races was not her fault. The fact that she won 19 in a row all running from last to first is a feat done neither before nor after her and it will be a long, long time before we EVER see that again. I don’t care if it’s turf, synthetic, what have you. And not sure what you brought that up, it’s not about overrated dirt horses? Why does the surface she ran on matter. Either way, you’re not going what she did closing happen again because these horses face slow pace issues, traffic trouble, and good front runners getting a huge jump on them. You have to remember that Zenyatta gave her rivals a massive head start and loped in the back until turning on the burners and flying past. She handicapped herself and still was just a nose shy of perfection. And that last race cemented how great she was, coming from 20 lengths back and having to maneuver around Quality Road who was backing up at the head of the stretch. Blame was a fantastic animal and loved that track and she was RUNNING him down. Mare, gelding or stallion I do not care you will rarely see that kind of sustained late run against the best horses on that surface/distance. Man O War, as I commented on your Secretariat vs Man O War video, was an absolute beast. We are talking about a horse who carried heavy imposts, raced on short rest, ran through deeper, tiring surfaces, and had heavier shoes than the modern horse and won every race but the one he was facing backwards at the start for. And he won the majority under a chokehold. He broke records under a chokehold. Again, I bring up the technology question about his timing, and how hand timing could be off. There’s a good chance that a lot of what Man O War did was even faster than we though. Just look at what happened in Secretariat’s Preakness, he wasn’t granted his record until 2012 and when he was they found the actual time was 2+ seconds FASTER than the hand timer clocked him in. Put some respect on my boy’s name. As for Ruffian, she was just getting started. Who did she face does not matter when you’re equaling and breaking records of all those who have ran those prestigious races before you. She was JUST developing when we lost her. Her jockey believed her to be faster than Foolish Pleasure, which is exactly why he chose to ride her. She was a superstar. These horses deserve all the respect AND THEN SOME that they are given. I agree heavily on Bayern, he needed everything his way to win. I’m 50/50 on Arrogate. When he was great, he was unstoppable. I believe something was bothering him in those last few races, and he was just done. But there is no denying how fast and brilliant he was. I was expecting to see Justify on this list, because he may have won the TC but he wasn’t that impressive to watch and was gone in the blink of an eye. He didn’t give us any real showing of brilliance, other than he won the TC… but in unspectacular fashion, IMO.
Relax Sketchy! Understand boy, and you are a boy, that there are many of us who have done our homework with an understanding you do not have. Let it be, boy! Each of these great animals have their place in our hearts, and we certainly don’t need your foolish bait to cause distress because you want to an expert. So shut up!
"distress" yeah that much is apparent on your part. guy was completely level-headed and yet you told *him* to relax. and even when making sure to buffer people like you's feelings with how it's *just* his opinion, how the horses aren't bad--you still couldn't handle it and resorted to invalidating him and disrespecting him.
Zenyatta?.........over rated?........you need to stop........do you know she didnt try? she just ran enough to win......watch her ears....she pulls herself up every race.......you are ridiculous....
@@truthxposed8975 There were races where Zenyatta measured her opposition and won by close margins The race against Switch was a different story. Switch had the race in her grasp and stopped in the last 50 feet There was another race that year where the leader stopped on the front end and Zenyatta was lucky to get up so Zenyatta was very very fortunate to not to head to the Classic with 2 defeats
Hardly. Like pretty much everyone else, you ignore the context of that remark. *Laurin said that immediately after Ruffian's jaw-dropping Spinaway -- a 6-furlong sprint for 2-year-olds,* and just her 5th race. Ruffian may very well have been faster at 2, or sprints, than Secretariat -- similar could be said of Seattle Slew or Dr. Fager. That doesn't begin to prove she was as good an overall racehorse than Secretariat. Or than Slew or Fager, for that matter. Ruffian set 8 stakes records -- *filly* stakes records. She was amazing. But her only *track* records were at the sprint distance of 5 1/2 furlongs, in her first couple of races. Secretariat set track records at the distances of 1 1/8 miles; 1 3/16 m; 1 1/4 m; 1 1/2 m; a course [turf] record at 1 1/2 miles, and tied a track record at a mile. Two of his dirt track records were also world records (the 12 f. Belmont and the 9 f. Marlboro Cup). Ruffian's (sadly limited) route times make clear she would have been competitive against top males (I believe she would have beaten Foolish Pleasure*), but her route times don't indicate she would have been beating the all-time great males. Her time in the Coaching Club American Oaks, run then at 1 1/2 miles on Belmont Park, would have won most Belmont Stakes, but it was was 3 4/5 seconds slower than Secretariat's Belmont. I have read, and can easily believe, that Laurin later hedged on what he said about Ruffian vis a vis Secretariat. It is possible the hedging is apocryphal -- I've never been able to find a primary source quoting him. But based on what Ruffian accomplished at 3 (had, tragically, the limited opportunity to achieve) he should have hedged, if he didn't. Ruffian is in the running for greatest American/dirt mare; I personally rank Zenyatta over her, but then Zenyatta had a lot more opportunity to prove herself. Neither one of them deserves to be ranked with the all-time great males, IMO. If they're not running regularly against males, they don't deserve to be ranked up with the best males of all time. And Ruffian additionally missed the opportunity to beat older mares. The 7-person expert panel who voted the rankings in Blood-Horse's 1999 book "Top 100 [American] Racehorses of the 20th Century" had Ruffian the highest of all the females -- and *35th overall.* No doubt for reasons closely related to what I have just explained. By the way, it's questionable Lucien Laurin was the best judge of Secretariat's ability. Even as late as the Marlboro Cup, when Secretariat had already won the Triple Crown, he thought Turcotte was making the wrong choice in riding Secretariat instead of Riva Ridge in the race. *Foolish Pleasure was the most consistent 3-year-old colt at mid-year, but he was not 3-year-old male champion in 1975. The Eclipse Award for top 3-year-old male went to Wajima, who had an outstanding campaign in the second half of the season.
Nathan Nathan!!! to answer your retort to my actual "I was there" RUFFIAN comment just to tie things up it was 8/12/1974 it was 5 am in the morning at Saratoga I was in the infield with John Veitch we were there to see Ruffian do his final workout before the Spinaway where he broke the stakes & track record we waiting for him to warm up before the work John tapped me on the arm pointed across the course said look there leaning against the rail was of course Frank Whitley but next to him was Allen Jerkins - Elliot Burch - John Campo - Lazy Barrera - Shug McGaughey - Woody Stevens - David Whitely - Bobby Frankel - Bob Baffert (both were in from California) Lucien Laura - Penny Tweedy - Ogden Phipps - & Marylou Whitney ----- everyone came down to see RUFFIAN work it was like the whole track & the world stopped just to watch her the anticipation was palpable they all knew & said she was not only special but Great this was the horse establishment watching waiting & remember that was just a year after Secretariat - they stood there in awe as she rattled off 33 --- 44 --- finished the work 5f in 57.3 Jacinto never asked her to run got her started & just hung on - it was like watching GREATNESS IN A UNCORKED BOTTLE- no one came away disappointed That's how GREAT she was I only wish you and the Commenters knew her like I did all I can say UNDEFEATED throughout her life (I'll agreed Match race aside) And remember only horse that her entire life EVERY POLE WAS A WINNING WON as track people say yes we saw real GREATEST
Ruffian's 1:08 3/5 in the Spinaway was not a track record: Spanish Riddle's 1:08 flat in 1972 was the standing Saratoga record for 6 furlongs, equaled by Spreightstown in 2004, and bettered by Imperial Hint's 1:07:92 in 2019. Fastest-ever time by a 2-year-old on a given track is not the same thing as a track record, and has, as you should know as an insider, no official standing: it's a "record" that is not tracked/kept. In 1974, Bob Baffert was a 21-year-old training Quarter Horses out of his native Arizona. He didn't move his base to CA until the 1980's, didn't begin to transition to TBs until the late 80's, didn't switch over to training TB's full-time until 1991. But if he was East checking out Thoroughbreds, Saratoga would be the place to do it, and he does strike me as the kind of guy who would be memorable upon first meeting. ========= A piece of historical trivia: The above-mentioned Spanish Riddle was one of the first horses, and I am near-certain the first Thoroughbred, to successfully undergo amputation and fitting with a prosthesis. Stablemate to Secretariat and Riva Ridge, the 4-yr-old sprinter pulverized his right front pastern at Saratoga in Aug. 1973. The injury (closed so far as I understand, not an open/compound fracture like Ruffian's) subsequently went gangrenous and his hoof fell off. Ten weeks after his injury his right front foot was amputated above the short pastern bone. He stood stud for five seasons before dying of a heart attack. Theoretically -- and I do mean theoretically -- such a procedure might have saved Ruffian's life. It is extremely unlikely she would have tolerated the recovery. And I would not have wanted her to survive in such a compromised condition, though Spanish Riddle was reportedly content after his recuperation.
@@marysueeasteregg I'm pretty sure I said the fastest filly, besides how many horses can run that fast being pulled up the last quarter - All of us pulled away looking at one another and John turned to me & said imagine if Whiteley let Jacinto ride him out probably would've been in the 1:07 4/5's most of the trainers as we walked away back to the barns shaking our heads you don't see 2 yr olds do that EVER
@@marysueeasteregg I asked Dr. Reed who I knew very well at the time and RUFFIAN'S INJURY & BREAK WAS REALLY 100-1 shot BUT when she woke up she began running on her side then as she gained more consciousness she started thrashing and broken her rear leg cut herself very badly she was a mess not possible to survive recently where I live now I asked Dr. Charles Reid & Dr. Scott Hays who were visiting Saratoga two of the top equine vet in the country they confirmed for me even with today's advances in equine medicine RUFFIAN would still have to be put down the injuries were to severe nothing could have saved Her. Or would or will ever be, there is NO Cure for this magnitude of Trauma.
I don't know who said Ruffian was better than SEC.? I didn't realize how amazing Zenyatta was til I watched all 20 races To never even throw in 1 clunker is unreal. But greatest ever? I grew up w/ Secretariat, affirmed, Seattle Slew, Spectacular Bid, Forego Bold Determined etc. Dr Fager broke the mile record w/ 139 LBs. Greatest sprinter! Best ever is a tall order it has to go to SECRETARIAT.
Pretty great assessment right there that I agree with wholeheartedly. For where I got the idea people were saying Ruffian is better then Secretariat claim. It started with a quote from Lucien Lauren that said "As God is my judge, she might be better than Secretariat" People like to use that quote a lot as proof and it's not too common place to see people in comment sections of videos about Ruffian people say she was the greatest of all time. As much as I see it as an overstatement. I do wish I got to see such greats like you did they sound like larger then life horses. That with time seem to only look better.
@@SketchyTheHorseGuy The 70's were unreal. The 78 Affirmed/Alydar was the greatest. I was at Spctacular Bid's WALKOVER. He ran 2:02 by himself. He should've been a triple crown winner too.
@@DanielSong39 Definitely.U can't imagine how fast she was unless you had seen her.Ran 108.1 while easing the final 100 yards n still set numerous stakes n track records.She was never asked for more.Always just a hand ride. . .
How Ruffian died was horrifiying so she deserves all the attention she gets! She died way too soon and will never be forgotten. I wasn't even alive then but she was such a beautiful natured filly.
The only thing I can figure is that you do a lot of thinking while you're on the toilet seat! I would not distinguish this video with further comments.
Sadly I didn't see Ruffian run in her races except when she broke her leg . Maybe she didn't run against the best but what horses records did she break and how good were they ?
Ruffin won all of her races without switching leads. Thats a fact. She had fractures at age 2 that she recovered from and that's why never switched leads.
@@truthxposed8975 She may well have had problems (I don't think Ruffian should ever have existed, her sire never should have been allowed to to breed, after having fractures 3 times while in training, himself). But she had one fracture, a hairline fracture, of a hind leg, at 2. Many horses come back after a problem like that. I suspect something else was going on with her than fallout from that injury.
@@BarryReinitz Reminder: her only track records were at the sprint distance of 5 1/2 furlongs. Sprints do not carry the importance of route distances. She did set 8 stakes records -- amazing, in each stakes start -- but those were breaking times set by 2- and 3-year-old fillies.
How about "Runhappy"? That horse was no better than a 6 out of 10, yet every track you go to (at least in the North east) there is Runhappy this and Runhappy that. Why? Also there a way to many Runhappy sponsors. For example "The Runhappy Travers".
I can see it, he’s definitely a horse who’s story really bothers me. He starts out as this incredible sprinter with a cute name and background. Then the trainer gets fired for not letting the horse workout when he was not feeling well and then the horse gets tried at longer distances ending his career in two races he never belonged in. And now he’s a giant commercial. So while his racing record wasn’t overrated what he’s become since just rubs me the wrong way.
Had Ruffian finished the matched race with Foolish Pleasure without the incident and gave FP a resounding beating I guess my friend will have praised her as the greatest without a doubt but as the saying goes we cannot turn back the clock nuff said
Ruffian is very arguably the greatest dirt filly to have lived. But beating Foolish Pleasure would not have given her claim to greatest [horse]. Other dirt fillies have beaten colts better than Foolish Pleasure, who was not even the best colt of his crop. Wajima won the 3-year-male championship that year. War Admiral daughter Busher at 3 beat 4-year-old Armed, a Hall of Famer. Busher is not the only filly to have done such. Decades ago, top fillies faced males more often, as do the turf fillies of Europe and Australia.
@@marysueeasteregg It must be remembered was engulfed with indomitable spirit something other fillies lack hence her quest for the lead to run others to the ground if it meant running herself to the grave what a fighting spirit Ruffian had
@@marklewen9384 Shrug. I do think Ruffian is overrated, vis a vis the top males; she's not even close to them. But to other dirt mares? The 7 experts who ranked the top 100 (American-raced) Thoroughbreds of the 20th century for Blood-Horse's book ranked Ruffian at the top among mares. Overall, she was 35th. So who do you rank over Ruffian? Gallorette? Personal Ensign? Busher? Zenyatta? Any are reasonable choices. They all beat top males over 3, something which Ruffian did not get to do. These days, almost everyone picks either Zenyatta or Ruffian. I wish I knew more about the careers of Gallorette and Busher. Btw, I personally rank Zenyatta over Ruffian, for consistency over a longer period and for beating males, though Zenyatta spent most of her career on synthetic. When I say Ruffian is very arguably the greatest dirt mare, I am referring to consensus opinion. It doesn't necessarily mean it is my own opinion, much less does it mean I am saying she is unquestionably the greatest. For example, I rank Secretariat GOAT on dirt, but I readily acknowledge (and have, on other vids) that unofficial title could very arguably go to Man o'War, or to Citation or Kelso. Different issue, but personally I rank a number of the top overseas turf mares like Winx and Enable over any American dirt mare, on the basis of competing so often outside the distaff division.
Ohhhhh no I will fight you on Ruffian. She was THE filly. There was no indicatoin that Foolish Pleasure would catch up. Ruffian was a runner through and through. I will die on this hill, she was THE BEST filly, and one of the best racehorses.
Wake up. Didn't you watch the video? MOW beat NO ONE at any point in his career. A very good horse foaled in a year that had no other decent horses. He raced against horses named Alpo and Purina his entire career. To be the best, you had to have beaten the best. And MOW beat no one. Ever. Zero. Zilch. Overrated.
@@rossogden9920Wrong. He beat TWO Kentucky Derby winners and the first Triple Crown winner. Sir Barton broke many World, Track, American, and Distance records, including a World Record just weeks prior to losing to Man O War. Keep lying to yourself. AP, Sports Illustrated, Blood Horse, ESPN, and countless other Historians and Thoroughbred Experts state that Man O War was the Horse of the Century. They know more than you. Guaranteed.
@@rossogden9920 Actually, MoW did beat 2 good horses. But each comes with a caveat. He beat Sir Barton, who was a very good horse, and a year older. 31:13-6-5, Hall of Famer, first Triple Crown winner, not that the Triple Crown was really a thing at that point. In 1919 Sir Barton was de facto (unofficial) 3-year-old champion male and Horse of the Year. But Sir Barton was compromised the day he faced Man oWar; he had shelly hooves and reportedly lost several of his shoes in the match race. Not really a fair contest. And the good colt John P. Grier 17:10-4-2 (3 of those losses were to Man o'War) made MoW work hard for his win in the Dwyer. The only horse to ever press Man o'War (think Affirmed & Alydar in the Belmont), John P Grier actually stuck his head in front late in the final furlong, shocking the crowd. Man o'War came back to win by 1 1/2 lengths, in world record time. Both horses were wiped out. John P. Grier was definitely the second best colt of that crop, much like General Assembly was clearly second best in Spectacular Bid's year. (Secretariat's crop was 14X larger than Man o'War's, Bid's had to be approaching that.) But on the day John P. Grier challenged Man o'War, he was carrying 16 pounds less than MoW. (Trivia: John P. Grier is in the 3rd generation of Native Dancer's pedigree.) I wish Man o'War had met Exterminator. Two years older than MoW, he was the other great horse of the era, and was ranked #29 of American-raced horses of the 20th c. by the Blood-Horse panel. The overall weakness of Man o'War's competition is why I rank Secretariat over him. Secretariat beat 3 U.S. Hall of Famers, an additional American champion, and a Canadian Hall of Famer/5X Canadian champion. But people remember Sham, a 1X G1 winner who was probably the 4th or 5th best horse Secretariat beat.
@@marysueeasteregg Nice response. You clearly know a lot more about MOW than I do. For me it's not just the fact that Secretariat faced so much tougher competition. It's also the fact that MOWs speed records were almost all immediately broken, while 50 years later Secretariat still holds all three triple crown speed records. If a horse is going to lay claim to being the GOAT, his records need to stand for more than a few years. MOW looks to me like a very good horse who happened to have been foaled in a very poor quality year, and as a result had an easy time looking good against inferior competition. Sorry MOW slurpers, but you can't beat double A, and triple A competition and then claim to have won the World Series.
@@vincentflauto7650she ran 18 out of 20 ON SYNTHETIC!! Santa Anita was synthetic for 4 years. People who don't know anything about horses should try the cat video channel..
Had a feeling when i read the title of this video that I wasn't going to like it. First of all Zenyatta was a great horse. Synthetic or not. And Man o War? Really??? I really think you were reaching for a reaction from the viewers on this one. Man O War was clearly one of the best ever, and the fact that you put him on this list says to me you really don't know what your talking about.
Secretariat retired at 3, so he didn't get a chance to give weight to younger horses. The terms of his record syndication agreement didn't allow him to race past 3, so I don't believe that the horse was "ducking" other horses. However, you're wrong in that he did give weight in the Bayshore, Gotham and Arlington Invitational. Additionally, in the Marlboro Cup, technically, he did give weight on the weight for age scale. Secretariat carried 3 pounds over scale while the older horses were at scale or one pound over (Riva Ridge).
Ok Nathan here goes I knew all these modern horses in the 60's & early 70's I had alot of time on my hands early in the morning i had time so I started hot walking horse for Elliot Burch (one of the greatest trainers of our century-trained Rokeby Stables Mr Mellon) & his assistant John Vietch that was when John had hair actually (John became a Premiere trainer he trained Alydar you might've heard about this horse) I noticed a horse the first of March 1974 a 2 year old black coal with a sheen on Her that made Her glow in the sun light she was being walked by a friend of mine Benny he looked at me in shock "I know ain't she something then the next day it was before 5am they led her on the main track she cantered down to the mile pole and turned loose I never ever saw anything that fast in my life now I knew Whiteley (who I didn't like) played games with riding cloths use plain no name bridles so nobody would know the identity he was a oddball I knew he took yearling in the fall early winter to Camden S.C. & trained there he would also bring the up to Laurel unmarked & would train on good days there hiding the identity I watched & got near horse every chance I could I was a regular on the backstretch so I could come & go as I please at times she would stare at me almost thought she was about to talk. I watched work near the end of April 5f in 57flat saw Her 2 weeks later work 3f in 33flat on May 22 I finished hot walking met my Brother-in-law in the paddock followed the horse up the chute to the track went back into the stands emptied my pockets I believe it was the biggest big I ever did I remember it was 41/2to 1 paid $9 to win Oh! She decimated the field broke the track record for 5 & 1/2 FL ran the first quarter in 22 1/5 Nothing does that remember it's 1974 track variant & condition I went to the barn (after walking) there she was she glowed like the sun the rest is history She was faster than Secretariat's 2 yr old Performance Ruffian was undefeated in her first ten races, covering distances from 5.5 furlongs (1.1 km) to 1.5 miles (2.4 km), with an average winning margin of 8 1⁄3 lengths. She set stakes records in each stakes race she entered. The best words I can say she not only was the greatest filly of all time - she was a LIVING FLAME My GOD you had to see her to believe her I always thought that anything that perfect can't be allowed on this earth and maybe just maybe after Secretariat GOD said YOU AIN'T SEEN NOTHING YET UNFORTUNATELY for us GOD decided to take Her back I wish All of you could have seen Her up close have Her look into your eyes as you stated at Her she was Angelic and I've been around some of the Greats that ever put a hoof on a track all I say is you might want to rethink your list to day she was overrated is like saying Joe Montana or Tom Brady is overrated she really is the standard that Champions are rated by. Next up tomorrow is Man of War is a horse I read about never saw, visited his grave in Kenneland talked with Ppl who are there that knew Mr Willy Harbut & who knew the horse.
YOU are 100% right. I saw her and if you saw her you knew you were looking at a gigantic POWERFUL force of nature just beatuiful and awe inspiring. I had never honestly felt AWE. in my life until HER. To me Secretariat looked big and powerful but even he didnt inspire me the way she did. and so da**d beautiful. the dream horse
Very good assessments and a great topic for discussion! Bayern - I agree that he bombed out in the Travers and some other races. His biggest victory was the BC Classic where he took out the speed inside him be veering left right out of the gate and the inside horses jammed together, losing a lot of ground. This included the favorite Shared Belief. This helped Bayern get the inside track and not be challenged for the lead. Arrogate was brilliant in the Travers and the Dubai World Cup. But like most of the progeny of his sire Unbridled's Song he just could not hold up for a long career. Unbridled Song's offspring average only a ten race career, one of the lowest of the big name sires. This is possibly the result of their heavy muscular bodies putting more weight on their delicate legs. Just a theory. Zenyatta was amazing and had so much charisma. Her come from behind tactics were so exciting to watch that perhaps she is overrated despite her considerable success in the Breeder's Cup: winner of the Distaff, the BC Classic and a very close place horse in another BC Classic. Her "dances" before the race are virtually unprecedented and very entertaining. She did not start racing until November of her three year old year and did not compete in the big races for three year old fillies or the Triple Crown. With her breeding she should have been great on grass. The second Classic she was on an unfamiliar track, took the overland route and still closed like a freight train almost catching the hometown hero Blame who had the shortest way around by the rail. She and Winx have the same sire, Street Cry. Blame and Zenyatta both had Kris S. and Mr. Prospector as ancestors. Winx did not get the chance to run outside Australia which leaves her great record open to criticism. Man O' War had to run in heavy iron shoes. Otherwise, he might have set records that lasted longer. I agree it is hard to compare over such a long time gap. Ruffian was great but unfortunately was put in a match race and broke her leg. I think people put her and Barbaro on pedestals because of their sad fates. Myself, I would rate American Pharoah as overrated. His greatest win, in my opinion, was the Kentucky Derby where he beat a very tough Firing Line. Firing Line already had had a testing campaign and he was softened up by AP's stablemate Dortmund as they vied for the lead most of the way. Dortmund got the lead in the Preakness but then was held back to run interference and force the rest of the field wide on the first turn helping AP. After that AP was generally the lone speed and when in the Travers they finally let Frosted use his speed he softened AP up for Keen Ice the sire of Rich Strike. In the BCC Classic he did beat the very tough Honor Code but he was able to set easy fractions with a lone lead. "Without Liam's Map, Smooth Roller and Beholder in the race, American Pharoah was expected to be able to get an unchallenged lead, which would allow him to set a comfortable pace and make it harder for others to close ground. Accordingly, his odds shortened from 6-5 on the morning line to 3-5 at post-time." Beyer, Andrew. "Breeders' Cup: American Pharoah getting a fortunate trip once again". Washington Post. Retrieved 17 November 2016. That's just what happened. He did not get truly tested and despite his great record, like Ruffian, he left a lot of questions unanswered.
@@truthxposed8975 If we go by what ailments horse's have had while running we will be unable to determine greatness since most of these problems were not known by the public.
Just found this video. Your assessment of Bayern BCC race is spot on. He won the race by wiping out the field.The plan was a get the lead at all costs. It worked, but IMHO he should of been DQ for that maneuver. I believe Martin Garcia was on Bayern can't remember. I am to lazy to look it up I am watching a close baseball game Lol.
All the top horses in your video are American. You have not even mentioned the great Phar Lap who was probably the greatest weight carrier in racing history. You have also rubbished the great mare Winx. I found your video to have a USA bias.
Maybe because I’m from the United States so it’s what I know best. Also i don’t exactly know what you want from me. Do you want me to include more Australian horses in an “overrated” horses list because you didn’t seem to like it when I brought up Winx (who I don’t even find overrated). And why would I talk about Phar Lap on a “Overrated Horses” when he’s fairly rated as a great racehorse.
Secretariat, you can't talk about liking another horse without his Rabid fans descending. Don't get me wrong I love him and he's only one of four horses I wish I was alive to see run (man o war, seabiscuit, and ruffian are the others.) It's to the point where I wish his records would just be broken so people will shut up for five minutes
Some of Secretariat's records have been broken. His stakes records in the TC races stand, but not his Pimlico track record, and not his 9 f. world record on dirt.
@@marysueeasteregg thank you for the added info! :) i was mainly thinking of the TCs but this is also true. i've been learning more over this past year, (not that i always absorb and remember things as readily as others xD) and there are these other horses who also have done great things/set records and with higher weights even, and it's just a shame when one horse is put above everybody else. not in all circles, but still.
@@DezmondFringe I actually do rank Secretariat GOAT. But I hold that as opinion, not as indisputable fact. I am very respectful of arguments for Man o'War or Citation or Kelso as GOAT, and there are others for whom one can make a reasoned argument. Of horses I saw/remember, Spectacular Bid is the only one* that made me wonder if I was seeing a horse as good as Secretariat. That is a minority opinion -- most rank Seattle Slew over him -- but I am not alone in it. I have said on TH-cam, including probably elsewhere on this page, that is possible some of the European greats were greater than any of the American dirt horses, and I should have included Phar Lap. (I unhesitatingly rank the great European filly Enable over any American mare.) One of the reasons I rank Secretariat highest is that he was dominant on turf as well as dirt...but that was true for Kelso, too, and Fager won on grass as well. *Actually, Arrogate made me wonder. He eliminated himself for me with the end of his career. But those four G1 wins, wow. Most fans in all sports hold opinions about who was the greatest.
Unfortunately I was in Orlando this week so I didn’t have time to make any Belmont Stakes content but I hope to make a history video or two soon that is Belmont themed if that helps.
How could you even mention Winx on such a video. It has been suggested that because she only raced in Australia, this somehow devalues her career. With our huge prizemoney on offer in Australia, why would you risk a horse of such importance on a long-haul flight overseas. This would be a hiding to nothing. Just think of Verry Elleegent's unsuccessful trip to France and UK. Nothing gained. I certainly would not have considered sending Winx overseas. There is nothing stopping the "Worlds" best coming here if the connections think they are good enough. Still an interesting video though.
Don't forget verry eleegent was rising 8yo when she went to France and coming off a Melbourne cup in the spring. Very few horses recapture their best form after an arduous cup preparation. Further their main reason for going was to have her served by a top English stallion.
36 in a row. How many horses would have stayed sound and achieved half of what this great mare did. I watched her in the UK in the middle of the night every race. I'm pleased she stayed in Australia our prize money definitely wouldn't tempt Chris Waller. Although he didn't do too bad last year. It's the way she did it coming from the back. Hope one day we see a foal of hers with Chris
@@suemaher5282 you may not be aware Sue but she was more than likely racing on regumate as to why she didnt travel to the UK, it was banned in Victoria in 2018. New south Wales didnt ban it, making it very awkward for fillies and mares travelling to Victoria. When the regumate topic was an issue as to increased performance, I remember Ciaron maher saying his very good caulfield cup winning mare jameka didn't race on it, however some of his mares did according to their temperament , it also stops mares cycling and therefore race more consistently. I'm sure he would have had black caviar in mind when he decided not to go. Taking a mare off a substance abruptly would have a very detrimental effect on performance, Black caviar raced many lengths below her best in England, although still winning. As you are aware regumate is banned in the UK. And the main reason as you point out, was winning four cox plates, an amazing feat by possibly the greatest race mare in history. For those people who have doubts about the quality of Australian and New Zealand racing I assure you it is of the highest class. Examples would be balmerino in the seventies, rated equal best horse in the UK and Europe, then many years later starcraft beat dubawi the up and coming champ at the time. At that stage very few horses had gone to the UK and Europe to compete, later on of course our sprinters have done very well. Sadly over the last sixty years with prize money inducements and syndicaters wanting early returns, quick maturing types have come to dominate, and in the main rely on NZ and English horses to fill the void in distance races. Excluding 9 year olds, as a spring 4yo she had 6 crops eligible to race against her then 3 more crops of 3 yearolds over the following years that's 9 generations of horses. In comments I've read God knows how many times she beat nothing, to them many times I would ask what was the name of the horse in those 9 generations that may have given her a race. There was never a reply. Her times told all by comparison to other great horses.
@@iansmith587 What a great comment Ian. Informative and really interesting. I didn't know about the regumate. I know that Australia 🇦🇺 are becoming one of the best for welfare bringing in the new laws for the Melbourne Cup after Anthony Van Dyke broke down. Alot of people disagreed but its the right thing to do. Racing world wide is in trouble and protesters are for banning it so we need to follow Australia with these new regulations. We can never make it 100% safe but we are and you are trying to improve welfare which is a gd thing. As for Winx there is a lot of jealousy surrounding this great mare and if she'd been a British horse u would never have stopped hearing the praise. Anyone who loves racing knows she's amazing. It's like when Aidan Obrien wins a big one the abuse written is unbelievable. He's a genius but he's not British so he must be cheating its embarrassing. British racing is not the force it was and Australia Japan USA are where the big prizes are. So take no notice of criticism of Winx its jealousy. Any American should go and look at her races feel the atmosphere she generated and shut up. Enjoyed commenting with a knowledgable racing fan thanks Ian
I find your opinion flawed. What was the point of creating a video to knock horses bred, owned and raced by reputable people whose opinion is far better than your own?
Judging Ruffian based on her racing career is ridiculous. She was running in typical filly races very early in her career. She was far to early in her career. She was rated as the best horse by even the other trainers or other great horses at that time . Had she not broken down, she would have had a remarkable career.
Love your films with this kind of topic. Fascinating stuff. Have multiple comments. The Man O'War section will be its own as you are not seeing all the details. First, top 5 implies of ALL, and including such as Arrogate (a very good horse) and Bayern (good horse) means lots of people even pay attention to them NOW (just a few short years later). Zenyatta, I agree, though as time passes I haven't noticed as much obsession with her so maybe she won't need to be on a top 5 of all, either. But at the time, yes, definitely overrated - she's lucky she raced in 2 open races at all to prove anything. Man O'War, totally disagree. A hundred-year old horse that most people do not study or really know anything about (Colin [coal-in] was NOT "late 1800s" I think you said - he was right after SYsonby (not "Sinson-bee"] in the late Oughts). Ruffian - yes, I'd say she's THE most overrated horse of all time, likely even more than Kincsem. She may have been great, but she never, ever stepped outside her exact division (same-age females), so all those "records" were stake records against girls of her age, and the only "track records" she EQUALED (not set) were 5f races run almost exclusively by 2yos. Ruffian suffers from Martyr Syndrome - she broke down tragically so is held in high esteem out of pity. MS is common in history.
BTW, people obsessed on Ruffian need to consider another horse who had a similar career UP TO that time in her life. TOP FLIGHT. EXCEPT by that point Top Flight had multiple times beaten boys in stake races. Look at her stats up until July of her 3yo. Later, she tailed off a bit - which is another warning to Ruffian lovers. You don't know she would've looked so good later on. This is why Top Flight, though HOF and in the top 100 of the century, is not known much anymore. Further, I call Ruffian most overrated because there are seriously people who think she is THE greatest horse EVER, period. It's bad enough "racemare", but to say she's better than Secretariat (I don't care what his trainer said) and Man O'War and Dr. Fager and Kelso, etc. Ridiculous.
Who are you??? Never heard of you and hope I never do again! May this be your last video! It will most certainly be the last one I ever watch! 👎🏻👎🏻👎🏻👎🏻👎🏻👎🏻
It seems like you're a younger fan, so kudos for being into horse racing, it's a bit of an older crowd around here. First off, I think having this discussion is fine, but it seems as if your definition of "overrated' is not the best of all time. Since your never going to definitively say who the best of all time is officially, it's not a very good list to begin with because you're starting off with an impossible task. And to be honest, I agree with a couple horses on this list. Like Bayern, yeah, he's not the greatest of all time. But it's weird he's even on this list because most people forgot that horse existed. Or Arrogate, he was very good for about 7 months and then fell off. Though his Dubai performance was impressive, I don't think he's even in the top 20 or even top 50 of most peoples greatest of all time. Zenyatta being on the list isn't surprising because even when she was racing she was a divisive subject for racing fans. However, if you stick with this game and see as much racing as I have, you'll begin to appreciate what she did much more. To win 19 races in a row, at any level, even if she was a claimer as a deep closer, shouldn't be possible. She gave the middle finger to decades of pace handicapping for three seasons and for that she's a one off. It doesn't mean the greatest of all time. But she's one of the most unique. Man O' War, like you say is a victim of his distances from our lives now. Let me put some context around your argument though. During Man o' war's racing days, the track was maintained by a team of mules pulling farm implements. They didn't have a starting gate! They just had a mesh web extended over the track and the horse and riders had to find their places before the web was lifted and the race was started. By the time Man o' war's records started to be broken they had turned track maintenance into a science and the starting gate was perfected. The fact that he's still considered possibly the greatest ever is a testament to how good he really was. That leads me to my ultimate point. You have to view these horses through the context of their own time, and the impression they left on the people that saw them. Take Flying Childers for example. You can't know for sure how great he was in comparison to today's thoroughbreds and why would you, he's been dead for almost 300 years. But for centuries after his death, there were pubs and products named after him. Hell, the royal navy always named their fastest ship 'the flying childers' til damn near the 20th century. As long as people are talking about the career's of horses like Man o' War, Zenyatta, and Ruffian, they weren't overrated, because of the impression they left.
I like the whole list, except I have to disagree with no. 1. Mainly because I've never considered her in the convo with Secretariat and others. I really want to compliment your editing and all the work you put in. Very impressive.
For sure, they’re definitely not in the same convo. The main reason I brought up the Secretariat argument at all is because Lucien Laurin was once quoted as saying “As God is my witness, she may be better than Secretariat." In reference to Ruffian. And because of that people regularly talk about Ruffian and Secretariat in the same breath. Which we both agree is a bit much. Also thanks for the editing compliments it did slow down the videos completion by a few days but I know I wouldn’t have the video any other way so I appreciate it.
@@SketchyTheHorseGuy Sure thing. If you have time (cause I know you do your own stuff), I should have a recording schedule for the Belmont Stakes weekend previews soon if you want to come on one or more of those. And if you ever want to talk, just let me know as well.
But the value of a racehorse doesn't only lie in his records, or winning streaks, it lies in his progeny (his get). And THAT puts Man O' War over all other horses, including Secretariat. You tend to forget why people even do racing.
Actually Man o’ War was a good, not great, sire. His first five years were fantastic, but once Elizabeth Daingerfield no longer handled his stud career, it never was so good. (She had incredible knowledge of bloodlines). His sire Fair Play was a much more important sire. Man o’ War did seem to be more successful than Secretariat at stud, though.
Ruffian had fractures at 2.......was killed by her trainer by racing her too much.....look how many times she raced before the breakdown.....she almost always wouldnt change leads, because of her problems......she never lost......she was never sound.......she was an absolute monster.. imagine if she was sound....
@@MoniekRedhead she had fractures at 2.....she always had problems.......why talk about her?......she was not running as fast as flightline......she was young
@@BarryReinitzthan you haven't seen many horses...MELAIR was a much faster 3yo filly than Ruffian, but because she didn't die, people don't talk about her
It was the way she won. If you had 10 bucks on Secretariat at Belmont or had $10 on Zenyata in any of her races, the first is witnessing history, the second is the maximum that a horse race can offer.
Click bait. Ruffian was the Flightline of her era. Insane talent. Zenyatta. A first and a second in the classic. You should perhaps stick to reviewing anime and Fortnite.
Man O'War being called the "greatest" is still a good summation of his legacy. Great doesn't seem to always mean the best, simply a mixture of awe and impact. Like Muhammad Ali in Boxing. Man O'War and Secretariat are probably the most common two horses a layperson could name drop if questioned. Thus their legacy looms large and they are the greatest. Hard facts and statistics aside
Take away the 30 LENGTH WIN in the Belmont against tomatoes CAN'S 🍅 SECRETARIAT WOULD BE JUST ANOTHER TRIPLE CROWN WINNER 👀 SECRETARIAT AFTER THE TRACK RECORD AND 30 LENGTH BELMONT WIN WASN'T ABLE TO WIN ON DIRT EVER AGAIN 🤣 AFTER THE BELMONT WIN SECRETARIAT LOST TO A NOBODY CALLED ONION 🧅 WHEN FACING REAL COMPETITION SECRETARIAT WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH 🤣😂 HOW SAD SECRETARIAT HAD TO MOVE TO TURF JUST TO WIN ANOTHER RACE 🤣 MY TOP 3 THAT I SAW IN PERSON 1# FLIGHTLINE 🛫🛫✈️ 2# ZENYATTA 👊 3# A P INDY AND A BONUS 4# CANDY RIDE (ARG)
He won the Marlboro Cup which was the most important race of his career, if he loses that race he would have finished his career winless against open competition on dirt and would have been rated behind Seattle Slew, Affirmed, and Spectacular Bid without question
Briefly: Won at distances from 6 furlongs to 1 5/8 miles. Equaled 1 track record, set a turf course record, and set a track and world record, all OUTSIDE of the Triple Crown; and beat 2 U.S. Hall of Fame older horses while setting the world record. In more detail: At 2 years old, missed the track record for 1 1/16 miles by 1/5 second in the Laurel Futurity. Horse of the Year at 2, which is all but unheard of. Had been impressive enough at 2 to be syndicated for a then-record amount of money, before he ever ran at 3. (That was based on looks & pedigree as well, factors separate from his track performance.) Equaled the track record for one mile at Aqueduct in winning the 1973 Gotham Stakes. Missed the track record for 1 1/8 miles by 1/5 second in the Arlington Invitational. Toyed with good turf horses in his 2 starts on grass. Turcotte thought he was 10-15 lengths better on grass than on dirt. Set a course (turf) record for 1 1/2 miles in the Man o'War. Beat 2 U.S. Hall of Famers, an additional American champion, and a Canadian Hall of Famer/5X Canadian champion in the Marlboro Cup. Set a world record for 9 furlongs in that race. I will add: Forego's trainer Sherrill Ward was impressed enough with Secretariat in the Derby, in which Forego had finished 4th, that he refused to run Forego against Secretariat the remainder of 1973. Forego ran well enough the rest of the year that in the Eclipse Award voting he tied with Sham for second among the 3-year-old males. As someone else points out elsewhere, in the Woodward Prove Out had to run what remains the second fastest 12 furlongs on the dirt at Belmont Park (2:25 4/5) to beat Secretariat. Secretariat's 2:26 & change would win all but a very few Belmonts. Secretariat finished 11 lengths ahead of the third place finisher -- Cougar II, a Hall of Famer. ========== I've often thought Secretariat's 31-length victory in the Belmont has actually detracted from his legacy, because so much attention gets paid to that performance that the rest of his career gets overlooked. I've seen people who thought he did not even run after the Belmont.
@@marysueeasteregg For the record I think he's obviously one of the best ever, but objectively speaking his record is not as good as horses like Seattle Slew, Affirmed, or Spectacular Bid Those horses won more races against top shelf competition Yes, Secretariat had problems with health, ownership, training, and the syndication deal that prevented him from racing at 4 but all of that is part of the sport and contributes greatly to a horse's overall record
I'm a Hardened Viet Nam Vet '67-'68 but that next day in July I cried - RUFFIAN 🔥 the Greatest Horse I've ever seen was put to sleep There Never Will Be One Like HER ----> th-cam.com/video/AioSaq4Dasg/w-d-xo.html
There isn't any clouding of my judgement these are facts that I actually lived through saw with my own eyes and luckily was was on the grounds while these horses lived & raced I knew most of them do this isn't guessing My family was involved in racing - racetracks before I was born and I naturally matriculated to that as I came of age. REAL LIFE FACTS as it was and how they acted - lived & raced
I totally agree with your assessment of Bayern and Arrogate but when looking at horses further back in racing history I feel that you are not factoring in the condition of track surfaces for that era. If you compare what type of dirt racing surface that Man O' War ran on compared to the speed influencing tracks of today then you have to wonder how much faster Man O' War could have been which is why I still believe that he would have beat Secretariat.
I would compare Ruffian to Rachel Alexandra (talent wise, if she would have stayed alive). Zenyatta was IMO better on dirt than on synthetics. If anything lost her the 2nd breeders cup it was her shoes, queens plates. I would rank her amongst the top 20 of all time. For a second I was fearing you would put Frankel at the top spot. Thankfully you didn't. 😅
Mike Smith took ownership but he somewhat lost her that race, he kept her way too far back early and she also didnt like the kickback in the early stages
Discreet Cat too I would have loved to see a match race between Dr. Fager, Ghostzapper, Flightline, and Discreet Cat in their peaks But knowing what we do about these horses Dr. Fager would have probably won in a walkover after the other three scratched LOL
A horse , Arrogate won over seventeen million bucks during his career , if that is overrated you don’t know what you are talking about. By the way , he sired Arcangelo this years winner of the Belmont Stakes.
Just saying Man O War’s name gives me goose bumps. I have read anything and everything I could get my hands on about him since I was 9 yrs old. There is nothing underrated about him. He raced under the conditions of 100 years ago with tracks not being as well groomed as they are today, no starting gates, iron shoes, and the many records he broke were broken with his jockeys restraining him. He was never allowed to extend himself to his fullest. Mr. Riddle was always afraid he would hurt himself.
Like someone stated before Man O War raced 100 years ago and we still talk about him, compare present day horses to him, and he still contributes, and breeders are excited, to have his bloodline in their horses.
Underrated, I definitely think NOT!!!
Absolutely. I will always remember reading of the race where they didn't use gates, and the starter was a newbie, so Man O War got started later than the other horses, and he still managed to come in second. He had heart. You can't just look at number of races or who they ran against, you have to look at HOW the horse ran the race.
Absouletly wrong about Ruffian, greatest filly of all time.
(Overrated. Not underrated.)
This guy thinks Man O' War is overrated???
@@galenjoyce8895 Yup. But remember, it's OVERrated, not bad. I think Sec and Ruffian are overrated, but that just means "gets more accolades than should".
You piqued my interest until Ruffian. The fact that she beat some sub par competition is irrelevant when you are setting new stakes records in all of your stakes race starts. What that shows is in the history of those particular races she ran faster than every winner before her...without being pressed by her competition. Imagine the times she would have had if she was forced by her competition. Don't forget she tied the track record during her very first race at 5 1/2 furlongs, winning by 15 lengths. She set records from 5 1/2 furlongs up to 1.5 miles, showing her amazing versatility.I saw her run multiple times in the 70's and she was the greatest filly I ever saw!! It was unfortunate what happened to her in the match race and I actually cried that day, but I honestly think she was getting better as she aged and who knows what the future would have held for her. Also Foolish Pleasure had the same regular jockey in Jacinto Vasquez. He chose to ride Ruffian in the match race because he thought she was the better horse. Who better knows this than the jockey who rode both of them!
THIS. On top of Secretariat's trainer saying that she may even be better than Big Red (!), Ruffian was one of those once in a century horses. The Queen of the Sport of Kings and to me...she is in my ALL TIME TRIUMVIRATE with Secretariat and Man o'War.
Exactly, She was a freak that never ever touched her true potential and thats a scary proposition
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EXACTLY she may not have run against much altho I thought hot and nasty was a good filly she beat all the greats who had the records from her races before her
It shows she was better than girls her own age. That’s what those stake records were. Ruffian did not prove anything beyond that. Compare to Top Flight, up to July of her 3yo season. Tell me who was better.
Yeah, but her times often wouldn’t have beat the stronger male competition. Example, ruffian had a “stakes record” at the 1975 coaching club oaks at 1 1/2 miles at 2:27 4/5. But Forego, the 1975 horse of the year won the Woodward at 2:27 1/5, 3/5 better. The jockey argument is also terrible. John Velasquez chose to ride Verazano over orb in the 2013 Kentucky derby. Orb won. While verazano finsihed 14th, that means nothing.
Beside of Arrogate I would place Flightline as an overrated horse. When people were comparing his to Secretariat I was completely disgusted.
First Man of War ran on tracks that were no better than plowed fields & to achieve this excellence exceeds comprehension Second look at him that I've never seen a more defined Massive Neck & Chest + I've NEVER seen a bigger Nostrils & Lung cavity as Man of War he must've inhaled air by the gallon full, which would account for his speed & stamina
They compared his Angle of Stride to Secretariat --- MAN OF WAR
88 degrees -- Secretariat
110 degrees which doesn't mean anything if you want the Exact comparison you compare Stride Distance the amount of distance a horse covers in a single stride that's the true comparison if possible
Secretariat like ALL Champion racehorses is 24-25 feet that has been the standard especially in record breaking performances BUT Man of War's was 28.5 feet the longest stride ever recorded by a racehorse this fact & his physiology is what drove me to understand he was then & is now the Greatest Horse of the Century
The 88 % on that stride angle is off of one still photo and you can see MOW is not in full stride on that photo.
@@ralo1001z Absolutely correct!!! That is my point this angle business is inaccurate & deceiving it's a way of citing something irrelevant. Man O War with a 28.5 foot stride is phenomenal No Horse in History had that. Always remember one thing this is very important - in prep for the Potomac Handicap his last two work outs were withheld kept secret because he did something no horse has done the 1st was ran 3/4's - 6 furlong in 108 3/5's actually impossible at time 3 days the blew him out a quarter mile aka 2 furlongs
In 20 1/5 No Horse can do that No Horse can run that fast let alone in 1920. I could go on even into the breeding pen suffice to say He's a Real LEGEND a LIVING FLAME 🔥 that just was the Standard for GOD LIKE PERFECTION
@@alsmith4807 yes man he is actually my hero the horse who gave me my interest in racing.
When mentioning about secret about ManOWar do not forget the big Secret of SecretAriat which he had planned to demolish the field in the Belmont Stakes thus highlighting him the greatest of the greatest ever do remember the secret of SecretAriat was his HEART by being able to pump blood more efficiently thus making him travel like a missile not even a ManOWar could have catch him long story short
Also, unlike most racehorses of today, Man O' War was a fighter! If a horse was in front of him, he wanted to annihilate it. He never gave up - no matter what the weight, or the ground - he'd run himself to death, if he was given the chance...which he wasn't.
In closing Man of War & Ruffian should never be in a overrated category --- Ruffian was certainly a living flame 🔥 you couldn't watch her workout or run without Her taking your breathe away that was especially evident with Breeders Trainers Jockeys Race People who watched her live, I consider myself Proud & Privileged to have known Her.
But!!!!! Even Her & Champions of the prior & present Era couldn't compare to the IMMORTAL "MAN OF WAR" as Will Harbat called him "THE MOSTEST HORSE" a Horse of the Century or really The HORSE OF A LIFETIME
I agree. Those two horses are legendary and they ran their hearts out in their races. Ruffian ran her heart out and she never gave up in her match race.
Hard to count out Secretariat. They were both great
@@PhoenixAscending Robert in all candor I did for a couple of Decades and by the way I worked at the track and saw him often but I also saw Sham & Angle Light - Riva Ridge - Key to the Mint (who I used to Hot Walk) etc etc ALL of them weren't even close to RUFFIAN ask Lucien Loren & Ron Turcotte & Eddie Maple when Whiteley (the S.O.B) was forced to make available when he was going to work HER all those Ppl I just mention came out & watched along with the most of the Barn Area the rail was 2 deep to watch Her one time she worked 5f. In 56 4/5 horses don't do that in a race let alone a work. As much as I could go on & to be honest I was in Awe of RUFFIAN like no other even my favorite at the time Forego I was a friend of Hellidoro Gustines (GUS) and at the time she was better. But with all that said She could never beat MAN O WAR you see there are Good horses there are Great horses there are Champions BUT THEN THERE'S ONE A ***LEGEND and that's MAN O WAR
Ruffian was not only the best filly all time and as a 2year old she was the greatest horse ever.... It s ad that the suits in Belmont worried about money instead of the horse. She was a special animal who was took away far to early, Eight Belles too.
@@Deznutz6969 Your on a somewhat right track Joe D with your observation but if you stood next to her and have her gaze into your eyes you'd get shivers at first when she turned her head in the stall & looked at me she kinda made me feel like Who the Hell are You What the Hell You looking at. Over the months that turned into her head bobbin & licking + chewing a sign of affection until Whiteley chased me away in the beginning he threw a bridle at me then he kinda gave up threatened shouted swore eventually gave up I came by everyday even on Saturday & Sunday rain or shine--She was like watching lightening in a bottle wanting to get out.
You mentioned eight bells might want to mention Ivory Wand
I know what this video is all about, your trying to set the world record for the most people calling you a dumb a&@ , You have my vote!!!
It is not very fair to call someone names without explaining why you feel that way. I think your vote is worthless without any reasoning given for it.
@@vernonfrance2974 his list of overrated horses was the reason, nobody in their right mind would have his top 3 on that list and many people have them on the best ever list. Look up those horses and see for yourself
@@vernonfrance2974 to put his top 3 horses on that list he’s gotta be wanting feedback on how utterly ridiculous it is to have those horses on that list!
@@vernonfrance2974 I’m gonna give you an example of what nonsense his list is- Ruffian either met or set records in 9 out of her 10 races some of them still stand today almost 50 years later
@@johnwalsh3215 Man O War did not have much competition nor did Ruffian. Man O War lost to an average horse named Upset and Ruffian raced against the males only once. As Sketchy said, it was not a stellar crop of fillies and mares that ran against her. Of course, getting out on a loose lead is the ideal set up and that is what Ruffian enjoyed in every race. She failed to switch leads at times down the stretch.
California Chrome sure did exceed expectations so I think he was not overrated but underrated and toward the end a bit hyped but if it had not been for losing to Toast of New York and Arrogate he would have gone down and as a really great horse.
I think American Pharoah should be listed as one of the most overrated horses of all time for the same reason as Ruffian. Not great opposition and he usually had an uncontested lead. When he didn't, he lost which we will not know about Ruffian since she was not tested severely.
If you include European horses I feel Frankel was overrated. He never went to the mainland and usually had his own pace setter. He ended up beating mostly the same horses over and over.
you can't call the great zenyatta overated it takes a great horse to give other horses such a huge lead and run them down
This boy looking for views and subscribers. Forgive him as he was an infant when she was winning them great races!! Dumb kid insulting Zenyatta! 🤦♂️
she didnt run against great elite dirt runners until blame which he wasnt even elite
@@jujudeck dude then how come she almost won b2b BCC? Explain. I'll wait. Hater!
@@fugetabouit663 2009 was synthetic. 2010 was dirt and thats when she lost against a good (not elite) dirt horse. Theres no excuse to her. She was great but not one of the best.
@@jujudeck You can only beat the competition given. She would beat your favorites I'm sure. Let me guess your a Rachel Alexandra type. 🙄
Plus she stumbled out the gate and made ton of ground and almost got there. Sound really biased my boy.
I don’t think anyone claims Ruffian is “the greatest race horse ever.” But most would put her at the top of the filly list. To call her overrated is simply shortsighted. She had blazing speed as well as tremendous versatility winning at distances from 5 1/2 furlongs to 1.5 miles, while setting track or stakes records in the process. She’s the highest filly ranked in the top 100 races horses of the 20th century, & that’s for obvious reasons, she was brilliant.
Yes, Ruffian was the highest ranked (#35) female on the 1999 Blood-Horse list.
The other fillies/mares on that list:
Busher #40 Gallorette #45 Personal Ensign #48 Dahlia #50 Susan's Girl #51
Twilight Tear #59 Cicada #62 Top Flight #66 All Along #68 Shuvee #70
Regret #71 Go For Wand #72 Lady's Secret #76 Two Lea #77 Gallant Bloom #79
Ta Wee #80 Affectionately #81 Miesque #82 Gamely #87 Bewitch #89
Devona Dale #90 Genuine Risk #91 Artful #94 Bayakoa #95 Beldame #98
I am American, but the title of that Blood-Horse book, which is sitting right next to me ("Top 100 Racehorses of the 20th Century") irks me no end. It is *not* a list of the greatest racehorses of the 20th century: it is a list of the greatest North American-raced horses. (Even more accurately, a list of the greatest Thoroughbreds who made at least one start on the flat in North America in the 20th century, but that is admittedly unwieldy.) I am not a politically correct type, but that title is arrogantly U.S.-centric. Difficult though it is to compare dirt and turf racing, it is patent that the likes of Ribot, Sea Bird, Mill Reef, Brigadier Gerard, are greater than most of America's dirt horses -- and maybe better than any of them.
@@marysueeasteregg I concur with your comments about not including European horses. It’s a US publication. As such dirt racing reigns supreme.
@@robertsmale3714 Thanks for making the suggested edit; I have made my own.
It's the title, rather than the list as such, that antagonizes me. It's certainly valid to make a list of the best horses to ever have raced in North America. I will note that the list/book does include horses that were turf specialists -- some that raced exclusively in the U.S. such as Round Table and Fort Marcy, and others such as Phar Lap and Dahlia, who raced primarily overseas, on grass, but who either briefly visited the U.S. or who were transferred to N. America for extended times. Those four are not the only grass horses included. But yes, the list is top heavy with dirt horses, for the reason you mention.
@@marysueeasteregg Secretariat raced on the grass very successfully so that shouldn’t be forgotten.
@@robertsmale3714 I agree. Secretariat was male turf champion in 1973. In his two starts on grass, he toyed with very good turf horses; IMO, his dominance on grass as well as dirt is one of the arguments supporting him being GOAT. Turcotte thought he was 10 to 15 lengths better on grass (!) than on dirt.
I readily concede, though, there are other horses for whom a reasonable case can be made that they were GOAT. Kelso and Dr. Fager, both of whom have supporters for being GOAT, likewise won on grass while being campaigned primarily on dirt.
I’m an Aussie - I don’t overhype horses like crazy. In my time I believe I’ve seen 3 dead set world class would give anything a run at their best distance since the mid to late 90’s - Might & Power, Black Caviar & Winx. There’s been a few other horses (So You Think etc) that are amazing - but I believe I’ve seen 3 champions. Winx was 1 of em. I know she only raced in Australia and if she faced world class opposition every start she would t have won 30 in a row or whatever the number was - but she was a freak. Running sectionals that just don’t make sense. 4 Cox Plates - 2 track records, a record winning margin & a record 4th straight Cox Plate. I’m not even a big Winx fan. She didn’t grab me like others - but she was a freak
I loved sunlike as that was a game horse
@@BarryReinitz true. Terrific horse. At her peak she was absolutely world class
Winx is one of the greatest filly/ mares. Just look at her she screams greatness. Beautiful.
HE WILL NOT TOUCH FLIGHTLINE IN ANY DAY !
Also an Aussie, the champions I've seen live at the track were Super Impose, Better Loosen Up, Sunline, Octgonal, Northerly, Might and Power, Saintly, Lohnro, So You Think, Makybe Diva, Kingston Town, Kingston Rule, Black Caviar, Let's Elope and many more over the 80's and 90's. Of those, the only ones I will say that were world champions or at their peak the best in the world are Better Loosen Up (beat the worlds best in the Japan Cup), Sunline, Black Caviar, Might and Power and Let's Elope. I don't rate Winx, beat up on terrible fields and refused to travel.
Man O' War is a legend racehorse, he gave us the two greatest racehorses of all time, War Admiral, a Triple Crown winner and Seabiscuit.
Man O’War didn’t run in the Derby because the owner despised the length of the race at such a young age, and he considered Kentucky backwater and “West” compared to Maryland and especially New York.
He lightened up when it came to War Admiral. Man O’War would’ve slaughtered the Derby if he ran considering he beat all the competitors easily as a two year old.
That's right.
Every American Thoroughbred traces his or her roots back to Man O War.
@@SaraNightfire1 The "Triple Crown" as we know it didn't exist in 1920. Kentucky Derby was a big race but there were 5 other big races
@@DanielSong39 The horses who won the Triple Crown before it was decided are still credited. And Matt Winn (manager of Churchill Downs at the time) was begging for Man O’War to run.
Actually, Man O’War wasn't even run until the Preakness.
I really like your videos! Sorry about Ruffian being included though - she will always be a Queen to me. For me, the greatest horse of the 20th century was Citation. He will always be my GOAT. Arcaro stated that he never really let him run.
Glad you like my vids, nothing wrong with having Ruffian as a personal favorite she resonated with a lot of people. Picking Citation as the GOAT is something i've never really heard before but at the same time it suprises me it hasn't happened more often. He was always the third wheel in the GOAT debate but he was still truly one of the best.
I agree with you about Ruffian... And about Citation being the greatest, the same Arcaro said that NO HORSE could have beaten Secretariat in Belmont 1973. It doesn't necessarily mean that Secretariat was the GOAT, though.
Did you happen to notice the field of male horses that Zenyatta blew past, like they were stopped, in her last race? On dirt.
Lots of flukes happen. That's why lots of races are needed to see a true pattern.
@@theOlLineRebel Zenyatta ran all her races in the same style :)
@@theOlLineRebel And only lost 1 of her 20 starts…
@@lavarox5339 All her races were against females except 2, and almost all were on Polytrack in CA. Restricted, IOW. Like Hallowed Dreams.
@@theOlLineRebel True, I don’t think she’s the greatest of all time, but she definitely stands out from other fillies
I was waiting for Justify, Arrogate I agree, Bayern agree. I have many unpopular opinions about racehorses though. Owners are so quick to send horses to the shed these days, I am glad we got enjoy Chrome, Zenyatta, Gun Runner etc for a while.
I agreed on Bayern; a little on Arrogate. Would’ve agreed on Justify. The rest I didn’t agree.
You are exactly right about ZENYATTA she definitely dodged Rachel Alexandra all of 2009..Rachel was the better horse for sure...
Your absolutely right , Zenyatta , they were ducking Rachel Alexander, in fact they asked Zenyatta to come to Saratoga to run in the Woodward stakes with Rachel Alexander and they declined. Rachel won races on many different race tracks.
Cigar in my eyes was a top 5 horse of all time in his prime. 16 wins in a row to tie citation.
He wasn't better or faster than Ghostzapper..
Comparing Postcrapper to the Great Cigar is like comparing Cigar to Kelso. Two campaign horses to a flash in the pan. Shame on you!
Man O War ? Are you kidding. I bet you never been around a horse.
Yup the guy who made the video is a clown. And Zenyatta was the best female ever. If you can reel in the best boys in the world twice she would have reeled ruffian in also
@natecottrell5905then you don't know much of horse racing. Ruffian was a fast two year old like MANY. BECAUSE SHE BROKE DOWN, peoples judgment are clouded .
Ruffian was no faster than MELAIR,but people don't talk about Melair being the best .
He's talking utter 🐂💩🙄
@@marklewen9384 It woukd be a close race on a good ground, zenyatta had that darrel green overtake speed,.where Ruffian was more like Usian Bolt with long strides and gate blast speed. Hard to say but we will never knkw as bs womens lib and ego killed Ruffian.
@@alivstyson1864 best female ever? She might be in a top 5 argument for her generation... but only for the 4 or 5 position... she won 18 of her 19 race wins against other fillies and mares... best ever? Very very no
California Chrome has a lot of fans because he ran a lot of races
I'd like to see a horse race 20 times and lose a few than see him race like 5 or 10 times and win most of them
Yes, I think this is a big problem in racing, that's eating away at the sport. We watch for the horses mostly, not the jockeys or trainers or owners. But the horses get retired early because they care more about cashing in at the breeding barn than about the sport.
@@desolatefox As a fan I support horses like Chrome and I also support those who argue that he's the best
Flightline 6 races LOL. Those are Candy Ride numbers
But you can't blame the owners for not risking the breeding value. Discreet Cat was a worldbeater for 6 races too. He did not have a 7th race in his body. I suspect it was a similar case for Flightline (and Candy Ride)
@@DanielSong39 California Chrome is indisputably a great horse, a deserving Hall of Famer. But he may not even have been the best horse of his crop. Plenty of people, myself included, believe or suspect that Shared Belief was more talented. I admit we don't know that for sure, with all the misfortune that befell Shared Belief. California Chrome had a lot more opportunity to prove himself.
@@marysueeasteregg Proper management and durability is a part of a horse's legacy
California Chrome was able to run in and win more big races than anyone, that has to count for something
Ruffian is not supposed to be forgotten her breakdown in the match race goes to show the speed she was travelling at what a filly what a horse I will always hold her near and dear to my heart nuff said
This 🤡 has no clue.I was there n Ruffian smashed her head into the gate on the break.Its amazing she could even continue much less pass F P.Id seen her 4 times n I promise u she would've put away F.P. n it wouldn't have been close.She was never asked for more,not once.This guy never saw her,I did.Thats all. . .
My mother's favorite horse of all time. Super comment 👍
@@noelharris1177I still believe that Ruffian broke down due to a pigeon flying in front of the two horses at that exact time. I think this freaked her a bit and caused the slightest of missteps. There's at least one video on TH-cam out there that shows a head on of the two horses, and the bird crosses just as she breaks down. I could be wrong though on that being the cause.
@@richd3044 She might've.Her bloodline especially her dam,Shenanigans,had some bone problems, especially sesamoid bones,n that was probably (imo) what caused her breakdown.Guess we'll never truly know. . .
@@noelharris5488 We know extactly how she broke her leg. Soft bones on a dirt track, too much strain on her legs.
Please don't forget Genuine Risk!
The age comparison of Zenyatta and other horses is incomparable!! And the way she wins all her races!!
Let me guess, you're a Secretariat fan right?! You want responses, here it is. I think the term great is thrown around way too much. So, I would agree with your assessment of California Chrome. Bayern should be on noone's top 100 list. I think our last "great" horse was Easy Goer. Now, with that said, you seem to be almost hypocritical in your assessment of field sizes and who was behind, for example Ruffian. How many fillies broke a record and won big every start? Zenyatta, like Secretariat, were overrated because they both were endearing. You bash Man O' War, the greatest, because of field size, he broke 8 records, I believe Ruffian and Swaps, at 4, broke as many, he wore heavier shoes, tracks weren't so polished and noone wanted to run against him. So, for the best, I think I'll believe the people that wrote about actually SEEING him in person, as opposed to someone who puts him and Ruffian as overrated. I agree Arrogate is definitely overrated. I think racing has changed over the past couple of decades, hence horses aren't really bred anymore to run, all the money to make in the breeding shed. And I would submit, most of the top "great" horses came after Man O'War, when they actually raced unlike post 1973. Especially when talking about just 3 year olds. Now, if you want to talk 2, how many 2 year olds carried 130 pounds like the #1 horse and standard......that would be Man O' War.
You raise some great points and legitimate critiques so I’ll try my best. You are definitely right that I’ve never seen any of these horses in person. Mainly because most ran before I was born so can’t really control that. Being a younger racing definitely does influence certain picks it might mean I don’t know how it felt to see them in person but it can also be reversed and say it could make me more unbiased since I have less nostalgia. It’s double edged sword.
For Ruffian and how many fillies broke a record every time they raced you got me their. Best I got for that is at best they were all records for female horses or stakes records. Not many of them are unisex records. Definitely no doubt either way Ruffian was one of the greatest fillies but I draw the line at “greatest of all time.”
For Man O War I’m glad you chose to pick that one because not many people had anything to say about him surprisingly. For who he ran against its definitely true he scared almost everyone off by his 3 year old year. Key word being almost since Riddle deliberately ducked having Man O War race Exterminator. For the heavier shoes and unrefined tracks I’ve been waiting for someone to bring that up because it’s 100% true he would’ve ran faster with modern track and horse shoe customs. But at best this would only subtract 1-2 seconds. Which with the exception of his run in the Travers Stakes it would still not be enough for record range by modern standards. It would put him as by far the best of his day. And his high weight carrying as a 2 year old is something no modern horse could take away from him. Even if they can take away all his records. but i still wouldn’t call him the greatest of all time. I appreciate you found parts to agree and disagree to make a very well rounded and knowledgeable comment.
If theirs one other question to answer you brought up “last great horse.” You made a pretty good choice in Easy Goer. I would like to know what in your mind puts Cigar, Skip Away, Curlin or more recently Flightline (since people are saying he’s the new greatest of all time) in a tier below that.
@@SketchyTheHorseGuy Fun you responded!!! However, Man O' War did NOT duck Exterminator, fyi. And the horses you mentioned were really really good horses but truly great, I don't think so. And you forgot to answer ME, who do you think is the best and, I believe, tbh, has to influence you in a way. Btw, for whom did they beat, you're absolute right about Man O' War's competition, but with his speed, carrying less weight, lighter shoes, his 28 foot stride (btw, have you seen that bogus stride angle chart someone created?!!!), modern tracks, I'd think about it. Unless your favorite is Secretariat then you will definitely refuse to see facts. Btw, the original Big Red only TWICE was he ridden out. He won 19 of his 21 races under stout pulls. Imagine his speed, ridden out but, that's another point. And Flightline, one impressive race, and they go all hype on the racing world, like they did with Arrogate. Besides he was four, and I don't think you (one) can compare a three year old with a four year old. Just like even though I talked about Man O ' War at 2, (to make a point) but look at Favorite Trick, so, you never know from year to year. And the competition and foal crop, so what. So what if you're so great, you have 1 or 4 horses behind you. Look at the foal crops year after year and only twice has there been a triple crown winner because noone was good enough. So, there it is, my opinions!!! I'm 65, so I've experienced a lot in the past 50 some odd years!!!
@@challloyd215 You had a lot of questions so apologies for missing that one short answer I do believe in Secretariat being the best if that automatically invalidates any bit of knowledge I have out of the window oh well it's my opinion. Long answer is it's not so simple. I believe what Seceratariat did in the Belmont is the greatest race i've ever seen or ever will see which is the basis for my reasoning. If every horse had their best day in a hypothetical race at 1 1/4-1 1/2 I think Secretariat would win.
At shorter distances I think Dr.Fager is the greatest especially at 1 mile or 1 1/8 i'd be hard pressed to find a better racehorse with such incredible durability and resilience. And especially if were splitting 3-year-olds and older horses into their own categories. Dr.Fager is to the greatest older horse followed by Kelso, Swaps and the 3 late 70's champs Slew,Affirmed and Bid. (no particular order). I can definitely agree on the Flightline bit because he is super talanted and hes proven a lot in 5 races. More then the average horse but you can't be the greatest of all time in just 5 starts you need a little bit more foundation.
@@SketchyTheHorseGuy Well, it's my experience, respectfully, that when you're (one) is a fan of Secretariat, that Big Red the original is an absolute target. And one race does not the greatest make. But thanks for sharing!!!!!
@@SketchyTheHorseGuy Man o’ War beat Sir Barton, who beat Exterminator. Not the same thing of course, but it does give an indication of what might be expected performance-wise. Riddle didn’t duck Exterminator. Exterminator’s owner refused to race him against Man o’War at weight-for-age weights. Understandable. Man o’ War was no ordinary horse.
I respectfully disagree. First of all no athlete can be compared to Secretariat. I ask, what imagery of pure dominance in any sport, in any event, that can rival the 31 lengths lead coming out of the final turn of the 1973 Belmont? So no one compares to the great Secretariat. Man-O-War is a rare Triple Crown Winner; you can't put him and overrated in the same sentence without the word "not". Finally, Ruffian, as a philly, deserves more respect. Plus I remember balling my eyes out at her match race.
Thank you for your thoughtful video. I commend you for speaking the truth because Man O' War's got some strong supporters (just like Secretariat), and to go against the grain can invite hate. However, when I was googling Man O War vs Secretariat, I came across an interesting website that debunked Man O War and noted his times, against Secretariat's, side by side for comparison. Secretariat easily comes out the winner! Furthermore, the article notes that Man O War's owner managed to dodge a few big races or threatening races and then made excuses for it. The author is thus dubious, and notes that this was all likely done to game the system and avoid big competitors. As well, Man O War's competition was very scarce in the day, because simply not a lot of heavy competition existed back then. Races were small. Secretariat, on the other hand, held his head high valiantly against big competitors. The owners never shirked off from the big competitions. You've echoed this sentiment, though it's still baffling to me that anyone could see MOW as the best and brightest when hew as only for his short period of time.
So, yes, I'm ultimately team Secretariat too, but I know that Man O War was well-loved in his time. And I don't want to take that away from him. He probably gave people hope in a time of war-related distress, and his funeral was open casket. He was truly the first great horse hero, so again, no hate. I just believe that Secretariat is the true champion of all time.
Ruffian is the greatest filly of all time. She stands alone. R. I. P. Queen Ruffian.💕🏇
That honour goes to "the freak of nature" Mission Brief.
he seems to have a dislike for the female greats. Ruffian altho not racing against much beat the clock every single time and if she had competition I believe would still have won every single time. I saw her and it made chills run down my spine, no other horse. except Big Red has ever done that. she was a REAL force of nature
Miesque was pretty special on turf
Zenyatta
I’ll take Hall of Fame trainer John Neruds word when he said that Zenyatta was as good as or better then any mare he has ever seen .
This is the kind of conversation we'd have on the hour-long track bus in NY.
I really wanted to keep silent, but unfortunately, I watched this shit to the end.
I endured when they called Arrogate overrated (now the horse has been included in the Hall of fame, according to the author, probably for its beautiful eyes).
I sighed heavily when Zenyatta was called overrated (the mare won 19 of 20 starts and is the only mare who won BC, what is it if not history?).
But, fuck, Man O War? Are you kidding? 3 world records are bullshit for you? 21:20-1-0. Let's also cram Frankel and the Secretariat in here. Also overrated comrades, right? (sarcasm)
Is Ruffian overrated? Just because the filly died at the age of 3 due to an injury? and let's put a bolt on the fact that she won 10 of her 11 starts (she didn't finish in the last one), set records in many and was the 8th winner of the triple triar. The coach of Foolish Pleasure was sure that his colt would have lost if not for the collapse of Ruffian. The coach of the Secretariat himself said "as god as my witness she might be even better than Secretariat."
But this is all a joke for you, yes of course.
I think Ruffian is remembered because her very public breakdown caused national mourning and helped to highlight the dark side of what racehorses experience. Even famous racehorses are routinely slaughtered for dog food once they retire. Ruffian is symbolic of the horrible price most of these beautiful animals pay to entertain us for a few minutes. Also Ruffian had tons of personality that even shines through today in her old photographs. She had a lot of adoring fans and she knew it and always tried so hard to make them proud of her! It's hard not to feel heartbroken watching footage of her last deadly race.
I don't understand why people make and post videos that clearly show their absolute ignorance
Horses that raced on bute/lasix , pain medications legal or not , are over-rated full stop ? So many horses mid seventies up until last few years running on medications ? remember that when gauging great or overrated horses 🐎 soundness and longevity are key when judging great horses
I remember Sunday Silence and Alysheba without the Lasix. It was hilarious
I think Northern Dancer was the first horse to run in the Derby on Lasix - 1964. Everything since then is suspect.
Of course, other drugs, legal or not, were common earlier.
I don’t think any drugs should be in their systems on race day. Are we trying to determine the best horse or the best pharmacist?
@@johnhoie1 I think we should have races that have no drugs on race day, no exceptions
That way we get interesting scenarios where unbeatable superhorses all of a sudden run up the track for no other reason
Any BOB BAFFERT HORSE IS NOW ON THIS LIST as who knows if it was them or the drugs
@@DanielSong39 well, they ARE drowning in their own blood. Kinda makes it hard to run when suffocating.
Other than Secretariat and maybe Manowar, Zenyatta is right up there with Seattle slew, native dancer, spectacular bid.
but BIG RED got beat by ONION a terrible horse so in your logic you could say he was overrated.. Sick of these let's make fans of horse upset and throw in truly great horses while leaving out. ones like Big Brown or Bob Baffert drugged up horses
@@BarryReinitz Secretariat was sick when he lost to Onion. Ron Turcotte begged Miss Tweety not to run him in that race.
Gotta love that Seattle Slew - nothing but heart and grit. I don't think Slew would
have beat Secretariat in the Belmont, but would have beaten him in the Kentucky
Derby, and or the Preakness. They would have been nose on nose at the finish.
Slew's son AP Indy and Easy Goer both ran the Belmont in 2:26, just 2 seconds
off Secretariats record of 2:24. Slew ran the Belmont on a rain soaked track, and
nothing but water and mud, and still finished with a good time -- considering. I
should add that American Pharoh ran the Belmont in 2:26 as well.
@@grantp4022 I think Slew would have likely beaten beaten Secretariat at a mile. The classic distances, I am skeptical.
"Just two seconds"? That's ten lengths.
No, zenyatta isn't...here are just some horses Zenyatta would never beat: Affirmed, alysheba, cigar,unbridled,holy Bull, skip away, ghost zapper, gun runner, American pharaoh,Flightline, and many more...
Zenyatta lost to blame in the Breeders Cup Classic I give that loss to the jockey more than the horse that is absolutely one of the dumbest damn rides I every seen in my life.
Blame didn't run that great either, didn't have that pop going down that stretch
I expected him to win by 5 and he did not fire
Had enough to hold on and was pulling away at the wire
Perfect ride in a race where pace collapsed. Zenyatta had PERFECT PACE SET UP and still lost. Learn the game ..
I agree. I think truly magnificent racehorses can win graded stakes races on all surfaces and against all kinds of competition (grade one winners from the same country and others outside the country). Believe it or not, I think the best racehorses know what it's like to lose. Horses that are left undefeated either didn't have good competition or had everything go their way.
I disagree with one point here if a horse is undefeated BUT sets records for track or race every single time they beat whomever had the record before them
It was only after Man O'War's one loss that he was deemed by the sports press, horsemen, and racing fans as truly great. Up until then he HAD had things his own way, but when he got left at the post, and then boxed in on the rail, in what was too short of a race to make too many mistakes, he still pressed on, rather than give up, and dang near won the Sanford Memorial, anyway. He had WILL in spades.
Get an all time underrated list going. I’ll say big brown. When you look at top horses of the 21st century nobody talks about brown. It’s absurd. I also think afleet Alex was wildly under appreciated.
Dutrow steroid horse
BIG CORP UPS DUTHROW HORSE...OH THAT PHONY...Must be blind.
Genuine Risk is very underrated filly. The closest a filly ever got to a triple crown. Her brother was Affirmed, her cousin was Alydar.
Zenyatta......was favored in two Breeders Cup Classics ....in your opinion--- what other female horse would be favored in the Classic.....I can only think of Gallorette, who ran in the 1940's....can you name any other?
I remember handicapping the second classic and gave her like 20% chance. When she went off at odds-on you could have bet on every single other horse in the race and have a big overlay
Rachel Alexandra would have been favorite if her owners had decided to run her in that race.
he really should have her on the underrated list as from the very beginning she was doubted and people threw out all the arguments he has over and over but she just won
@@yukilover91 As a HUGE Rachel fan, no. Everyone knew she wouldn't get 10 furlongs against top class. Jess Jackson learned from his '08 experience with Curlin, that running on "plastic" was not what he wanted for his horses. Rachel could have gone in the distaff that year, but why? Sure it was her distance, but on Polytrack it wouldn't have been her best effort. By 2010 she was clearly not the same horse so that's part of why the 2010 Apple Blossom against Z didn't happen.
That would depend on the surface. In 2009, Z benefitted from "home base" Polytrack. I bet if she had faced Ravens Pass in 2008, I think she would have had an uphill battle to get past him. On dirt, I can think of several fillies or mares who could have been WON in that year's Classic- Princess Rooney (who ran the 1 1/4 Distaff faster than Wild Again did in the Classic) Lady's Secret, and Personal Ensign. Bayakoa would get a nomination too.
I will always be shocked when people say “yeah but who did they beat” to horses who were either walking past their competitors (Zenyatta) or destroying them (MOW and Ruffian) as if the horses get to pick who they face.
Here’s the facts: Zenyatta was the epitome of “do what I need to win.” She knew where the wire was and she didn’t win by flashy huge margins because she didn’t need to. Whatever decisions her owners made to place her in races was not her fault. The fact that she won 19 in a row all running from last to first is a feat done neither before nor after her and it will be a long, long time before we EVER see that again. I don’t care if it’s turf, synthetic, what have you. And not sure what you brought that up, it’s not about overrated dirt horses? Why does the surface she ran on matter. Either way, you’re not going what she did closing happen again because these horses face slow pace issues, traffic trouble, and good front runners getting a huge jump on them. You have to remember that Zenyatta gave her rivals a massive head start and loped in the back until turning on the burners and flying past. She handicapped herself and still was just a nose shy of perfection. And that last race cemented how great she was, coming from 20 lengths back and having to maneuver around Quality Road who was backing up at the head of the stretch. Blame was a fantastic animal and loved that track and she was RUNNING him down. Mare, gelding or stallion I do not care you will rarely see that kind of sustained late run against the best horses on that surface/distance.
Man O War, as I commented on your Secretariat vs Man O War video, was an absolute beast. We are talking about a horse who carried heavy imposts, raced on short rest, ran through deeper, tiring surfaces, and had heavier shoes than the modern horse and won every race but the one he was facing backwards at the start for. And he won the majority under a chokehold. He broke records under a chokehold. Again, I bring up the technology question about his timing, and how hand timing could be off. There’s a good chance that a lot of what Man O War did was even faster than we though. Just look at what happened in Secretariat’s Preakness, he wasn’t granted his record until 2012 and when he was they found the actual time was 2+ seconds FASTER than the hand timer clocked him in. Put some respect on my boy’s name.
As for Ruffian, she was just getting started. Who did she face does not matter when you’re equaling and breaking records of all those who have ran those prestigious races before you. She was JUST developing when we lost her. Her jockey believed her to be faster than Foolish Pleasure, which is exactly why he chose to ride her. She was a superstar.
These horses deserve all the respect AND THEN SOME that they are given.
I agree heavily on Bayern, he needed everything his way to win. I’m 50/50 on Arrogate. When he was great, he was unstoppable. I believe something was bothering him in those last few races, and he was just done. But there is no denying how fast and brilliant he was. I was expecting to see Justify on this list, because he may have won the TC but he wasn’t that impressive to watch and was gone in the blink of an eye. He didn’t give us any real showing of brilliance, other than he won the TC… but in unspectacular fashion, IMO.
Relax Sketchy! Understand boy, and you are a boy, that there are many of us who have done
our homework with an understanding you do not have. Let it be, boy! Each of these great animals have their place in our hearts, and we certainly don’t need your foolish bait to cause
distress because you want to an expert. So shut up!
"distress" yeah that much is apparent on your part. guy was completely level-headed and yet you told *him* to relax. and even when making sure to buffer people like you's feelings with how it's *just* his opinion, how the horses aren't bad--you still couldn't handle it and resorted to invalidating him and disrespecting him.
she didnt need to race against anyone Ruffian broke records
Zenyatta?.........over rated?........you need to stop........do you know she didnt try? she just ran enough to win......watch her ears....she pulls herself up every race.......you are ridiculous....
When talking about Zenyatta, I knew this dude didnt know wth he was talking about as soon as he didnt bring up Switch's race record.
@@truthxposed8975 There were races where Zenyatta measured her opposition and won by close margins
The race against Switch was a different story. Switch had the race in her grasp and stopped in the last 50 feet
There was another race that year where the leader stopped on the front end and Zenyatta was lucky to get up so Zenyatta was very very fortunate to not to head to the Classic with 2 defeats
"As God is my witness, she (Ruffian) may even be better than Secretariat!" said Secretariat's own TRAINER. I think we're done here.
Hardly. Like pretty much everyone else, you ignore the context of that remark. *Laurin said that immediately after Ruffian's jaw-dropping Spinaway -- a 6-furlong sprint for 2-year-olds,* and just her 5th race.
Ruffian may very well have been faster at 2, or sprints, than Secretariat -- similar could be said of Seattle Slew or Dr. Fager.
That doesn't begin to prove she was as good an overall racehorse than Secretariat. Or than Slew or Fager, for that matter.
Ruffian set 8 stakes records -- *filly* stakes records. She was amazing. But her only *track* records were at the sprint distance of 5 1/2 furlongs, in her first couple of races. Secretariat set track records at the distances of 1 1/8 miles; 1 3/16 m; 1 1/4 m; 1 1/2 m; a course [turf] record at 1 1/2 miles, and tied a track record at a mile. Two of his dirt track records were also world records (the 12 f. Belmont and the 9 f. Marlboro Cup). Ruffian's (sadly limited) route times make clear she would have been competitive against top males (I believe she would have beaten Foolish Pleasure*), but her route times don't indicate she would have been beating the all-time great males. Her time in the Coaching Club American Oaks, run then at 1 1/2 miles on Belmont Park, would have won most Belmont Stakes, but it was was 3 4/5 seconds slower than Secretariat's Belmont.
I have read, and can easily believe, that Laurin later hedged on what he said about Ruffian vis a vis Secretariat. It is possible the hedging is apocryphal -- I've never been able to find a primary source quoting him. But based on what Ruffian accomplished at 3 (had, tragically, the limited opportunity to achieve) he should have hedged, if he didn't. Ruffian is in the running for greatest American/dirt mare; I personally rank Zenyatta over her, but then Zenyatta had a lot more opportunity to prove herself.
Neither one of them deserves to be ranked with the all-time great males, IMO. If they're not running regularly against males, they don't deserve to be ranked up with the best males of all time. And Ruffian additionally missed the opportunity to beat older mares. The 7-person expert panel who voted the rankings in Blood-Horse's 1999 book "Top 100 [American] Racehorses of the 20th Century" had Ruffian the highest of all the females -- and *35th overall.* No doubt for reasons closely related to what I have just explained.
By the way, it's questionable Lucien Laurin was the best judge of Secretariat's ability. Even as late as the Marlboro Cup, when Secretariat had already won the Triple Crown, he thought Turcotte was making the wrong choice in riding Secretariat instead of Riva Ridge in the race.
*Foolish Pleasure was the most consistent 3-year-old colt at mid-year, but he was not 3-year-old male champion in 1975. The Eclipse Award for top 3-year-old male went to Wajima, who had an outstanding campaign in the second half of the season.
Secretariats trainer was a cheating s**bag who was banned from Narragansett park....I'll pass on his judgment.
@@marysueeastereggMELAIR ran MUCH FASTER than Ruffian...why don't we talk about her?? Because times MEAN NOTHING!
Nathan Nathan!!! to answer your retort to my actual "I was there" RUFFIAN comment just to tie things up it was 8/12/1974 it was 5 am in the morning at Saratoga I was in the infield with John Veitch we were there to see Ruffian do his final workout before the Spinaway where he broke the stakes & track record we waiting for him to warm up before the work John tapped me on the arm pointed across the course said look there leaning against the rail was of course Frank Whitley but next to him was Allen Jerkins - Elliot Burch - John Campo - Lazy Barrera - Shug McGaughey - Woody Stevens - David Whitely - Bobby Frankel - Bob Baffert (both were in from California) Lucien Laura - Penny Tweedy - Ogden Phipps - & Marylou Whitney ----- everyone came down to see RUFFIAN work it was like the whole track & the world stopped just to watch her the anticipation was palpable they all knew & said she was not only special but Great this was the horse establishment watching waiting & remember that was just a year after Secretariat - they stood there in awe as she rattled off 33 --- 44 --- finished the work 5f in 57.3 Jacinto never asked her to run got her started & just hung on - it was like watching GREATNESS IN A UNCORKED BOTTLE- no one came away disappointed That's how GREAT she was I only wish you and the Commenters knew her like I did all I can say UNDEFEATED throughout her life (I'll agreed Match race aside)
And remember only horse that her entire life EVERY POLE WAS A WINNING WON as track people say yes we saw real GREATEST
Ruffian's 1:08 3/5 in the Spinaway was not a track record: Spanish Riddle's 1:08 flat in 1972 was the standing Saratoga record for 6 furlongs, equaled by Spreightstown in 2004, and bettered by Imperial Hint's 1:07:92 in 2019. Fastest-ever time by a 2-year-old on a given track is not the same thing as a track record, and has, as you should know as an insider, no official standing: it's a "record" that is not tracked/kept.
In 1974, Bob Baffert was a 21-year-old training Quarter Horses out of his native Arizona. He didn't move his base to CA until the 1980's, didn't begin to transition to TBs until the late 80's, didn't switch over to training TB's full-time until 1991. But if he was East checking out Thoroughbreds, Saratoga would be the place to do it, and he does strike me as the kind of guy who would be memorable upon first meeting.
=========
A piece of historical trivia: The above-mentioned Spanish Riddle was one of the first horses, and I am near-certain the first Thoroughbred, to successfully undergo amputation and fitting with a prosthesis. Stablemate to Secretariat and Riva Ridge, the 4-yr-old sprinter pulverized his right front pastern at Saratoga in Aug. 1973. The injury (closed so far as I understand, not an open/compound fracture like Ruffian's) subsequently went gangrenous and his hoof fell off. Ten weeks after his injury his right front foot was amputated above the short pastern bone. He stood stud for five seasons before dying of a heart attack.
Theoretically -- and I do mean theoretically -- such a procedure might have saved Ruffian's life. It is extremely unlikely she would have tolerated the recovery. And I would not have wanted her to survive in such a compromised condition, though Spanish Riddle was reportedly content after his recuperation.
@@marysueeasteregg I'm pretty sure I said the fastest filly, besides how many horses can run that fast being pulled up the last quarter - All of us pulled away looking at one another and John turned to me & said imagine if Whiteley let Jacinto ride him out probably would've been in the 1:07 4/5's most of the trainers as we walked away back to the barns shaking our heads you don't see 2 yr olds do that EVER
anyone who saw her like we did will never think of her as over rated. It is a slur other greatness by people who dont know any better
@@marysueeasteregg I asked Dr. Reed who I knew very well at the time and RUFFIAN'S INJURY & BREAK WAS REALLY 100-1 shot BUT when she woke up she began running on her side then as she gained more consciousness she started thrashing and broken her rear leg cut herself very badly she was a mess not possible to survive recently where I live now I asked Dr. Charles Reid & Dr. Scott Hays who were visiting Saratoga two of the top equine vet in the country they confirmed for me even with today's advances in equine medicine RUFFIAN would still have to be put down the injuries were to severe nothing could have saved Her. Or would or will ever be, there is NO Cure for this magnitude of Trauma.
I don't know who said Ruffian was better than SEC.? I didn't realize how amazing Zenyatta was til I watched all 20 races To never even throw in 1 clunker is unreal. But greatest ever? I grew up w/ Secretariat, affirmed, Seattle Slew, Spectacular Bid, Forego Bold Determined etc. Dr Fager broke the mile record w/ 139 LBs. Greatest sprinter! Best ever is a tall order it has to go to SECRETARIAT.
Pretty great assessment right there that I agree with wholeheartedly. For where I got the idea people were saying Ruffian is better then Secretariat claim. It started with a quote from Lucien Lauren that said "As God is my judge, she might be better than Secretariat" People like to use that quote a lot as proof and it's not too common place to see people in comment sections of videos about Ruffian people say she was the greatest of all time. As much as I see it as an overstatement. I do wish I got to see such greats like you did they sound like larger then life horses. That with time seem to only look better.
@@SketchyTheHorseGuy The 70's were unreal. The 78 Affirmed/Alydar was the greatest. I was at Spctacular Bid's WALKOVER. He ran 2:02 by himself. He should've been a triple crown winner too.
Maybe Ruffian does beat Secretariat in a 6 furlong race
@@DanielSong39 Definitely.U can't imagine how fast she was unless you had seen her.Ran 108.1 while easing the final 100 yards n still set numerous stakes n track records.She was never asked for more.Always just a hand ride. . .
Seattle slew seems to me to be highly underrated I put him right up there just below big red over anyone else
How Ruffian died was horrifiying so she deserves all the attention she gets! She died way too soon and will never be forgotten. I wasn't even alive then but she was such a beautiful natured filly.
The only thing I can figure is that you do a lot of thinking while you're on the toilet seat!
I would not distinguish this video with further comments.
Sadly I didn't see Ruffian run in her races except when she broke her leg . Maybe she didn't run against the best but what horses records did she break and how good were they ?
Ruffin won all of her races without switching leads. Thats a fact. She had fractures at age 2 that she recovered from and that's why never switched leads.
@@truthxposed8975 She may well have had problems (I don't think Ruffian should ever have existed, her sire never should have been allowed to to breed, after having fractures 3 times while in training, himself). But she had one fracture, a hairline fracture, of a hind leg, at 2. Many horses come back after a problem like that. I suspect something else was going on with her than fallout from that injury.
exactly she may have run against less than the best but with no one pushing her she still broke records set by darned good horses
@@BarryReinitz Reminder: her only track records were at the sprint distance of 5 1/2 furlongs. Sprints do not carry the importance of route distances. She did set 8 stakes records -- amazing, in each stakes start -- but those were breaking times set by 2- and 3-year-old fillies.
Track records MEAN NOTHING...it's who you beat, and how you beat them.
Good list
Zenyatta was unbelievable.
zenyatta beat the same horses over and over
Also 99.9% of the boys in 2 Breeders Cup Classic.
@@boxcarent.3147 a better-judged ride by smith 100% of them Correct a top-notch well managed horse
@@boxcarent.31472009 WAS NOT a bc classic. It was fake synthetic BS..
How about "Runhappy"? That horse was no better than a 6 out of 10, yet every track you go to (at least in the North east) there is Runhappy this and Runhappy that. Why? Also there a way to many Runhappy sponsors. For example "The Runhappy Travers".
I can see it, he’s definitely a horse who’s story really bothers me. He starts out as this incredible sprinter with a cute name and background. Then the trainer gets fired for not letting the horse workout when he was not feeling well and then the horse gets tried at longer distances ending his career in two races he never belonged in. And now he’s a giant commercial. So while his racing record wasn’t overrated what he’s become since just rubs me the wrong way.
Zenyatta Manowar are of the greatest racehorses of all time
Had Ruffian finished the matched race with Foolish Pleasure without the incident and gave FP a resounding beating I guess my friend will have praised her as the greatest without a doubt but as the saying goes we cannot turn back the clock nuff said
Ruffian is very arguably the greatest dirt filly to have lived. But beating Foolish Pleasure would not have given her claim to greatest [horse]. Other dirt fillies have beaten colts better than Foolish Pleasure, who was not even the best colt of his crop. Wajima won the 3-year-male championship that year. War Admiral daughter Busher at 3 beat 4-year-old Armed, a Hall of Famer. Busher is not the only filly to have done such. Decades ago, top fillies faced males more often, as do the turf fillies of Europe and Australia.
@@marysueeasteregg It must be remembered was engulfed with indomitable spirit something other fillies lack hence her quest for the lead to run others to the ground if it meant running herself to the grave what a fighting spirit Ruffian had
@@marysueeastereggI'm arguing it. Ruffian NOT the best female dirt horse ever....not even close.
@@marklewen9384 Shrug. I do think Ruffian is overrated, vis a vis the top males; she's not even close to them.
But to other dirt mares? The 7 experts who ranked the top 100 (American-raced) Thoroughbreds of the 20th century for Blood-Horse's book ranked Ruffian at the top among mares. Overall, she was 35th.
So who do you rank over Ruffian? Gallorette? Personal Ensign? Busher? Zenyatta? Any are reasonable choices. They all beat top males over 3, something which Ruffian did not get to do. These days, almost everyone picks either Zenyatta or Ruffian. I wish I knew more about the careers of Gallorette and Busher.
Btw, I personally rank Zenyatta over Ruffian, for consistency over a longer period and for beating males, though Zenyatta spent most of her career on synthetic. When I say Ruffian is very arguably the greatest dirt mare, I am referring to consensus opinion. It doesn't necessarily mean it is my own opinion, much less does it mean I am saying she is unquestionably the greatest. For example, I rank Secretariat GOAT on dirt, but I readily acknowledge (and have, on other vids) that unofficial title could very arguably go to Man o'War, or to Citation or Kelso.
Different issue, but personally I rank a number of the top overseas turf mares like Winx and Enable over any American dirt mare, on the basis of competing so often outside the distaff division.
@@marysueeasteregg Experts? Most know nothing....Lady's Secret was the best dirt mare in American history.
Ohhhhh no I will fight you on Ruffian. She was THE filly. There was no indicatoin that Foolish Pleasure would catch up. Ruffian was a runner through and through. I will die on this hill, she was THE BEST filly, and one of the best racehorses.
Ill be on the hill with you.
How is Man O' War over rated? He is one of the greatest racehorse of all time.
+Tech Gamer Cubed He's a Secretariat fan boy enough said LOL.
Wake up. Didn't you watch the video?
MOW beat NO ONE at any point in his career.
A very good horse foaled in a year that had no other decent horses. He raced against horses named Alpo and Purina his entire career.
To be the best, you had to have beaten the best. And MOW beat no one. Ever. Zero. Zilch.
Overrated.
@@rossogden9920Wrong. He beat TWO Kentucky Derby winners and the first Triple Crown winner. Sir Barton broke many World, Track, American, and Distance records, including a World Record just weeks prior to losing to Man O War. Keep lying to yourself. AP, Sports Illustrated, Blood Horse, ESPN, and countless other Historians and Thoroughbred Experts state that Man O War was the Horse of the Century. They know more than you. Guaranteed.
@@rossogden9920 Actually, MoW did beat 2 good horses. But each comes with a caveat.
He beat Sir Barton, who was a very good horse, and a year older. 31:13-6-5, Hall of Famer, first Triple Crown winner, not that the Triple Crown was really a thing at that point. In 1919 Sir Barton was de facto (unofficial) 3-year-old champion male and Horse of the Year.
But Sir Barton was compromised the day he faced Man oWar; he had shelly hooves and reportedly lost several of his shoes in the match race. Not really a fair contest.
And the good colt John P. Grier 17:10-4-2 (3 of those losses were to Man o'War) made MoW work hard for his win in the Dwyer. The only horse to ever press Man o'War (think Affirmed & Alydar in the Belmont), John P Grier actually stuck his head in front late in the final furlong, shocking the crowd. Man o'War came back to win by 1 1/2 lengths, in world record time. Both horses were wiped out.
John P. Grier was definitely the second best colt of that crop, much like General Assembly was clearly second best in Spectacular Bid's year. (Secretariat's crop was 14X larger than Man o'War's, Bid's had to be approaching that.) But on the day John P. Grier challenged Man o'War, he was carrying 16 pounds less than MoW. (Trivia: John P. Grier is in the 3rd generation of Native Dancer's pedigree.)
I wish Man o'War had met Exterminator. Two years older than MoW, he was the other great horse of the era, and was ranked #29 of American-raced horses of the 20th c. by the Blood-Horse panel.
The overall weakness of Man o'War's competition is why I rank Secretariat over him. Secretariat beat 3 U.S. Hall of Famers, an additional American champion, and a Canadian Hall of Famer/5X Canadian champion. But people remember Sham, a 1X G1 winner who was probably the 4th or 5th best horse Secretariat beat.
@@marysueeasteregg Nice response. You clearly know a lot more about MOW than I do.
For me it's not just the fact that Secretariat faced so much tougher competition. It's also the fact that MOWs speed records were almost all immediately broken, while 50 years later Secretariat still holds all three triple crown speed records. If a horse is going to lay claim to being the GOAT, his records need to stand for more than a few years.
MOW looks to me like a very good horse who happened to have been foaled in a very poor quality year, and as a result had an easy time looking good against inferior competition.
Sorry MOW slurpers, but you can't beat double A, and triple A competition and then claim to have won the World Series.
some times maybe a person free speech should be restricted. and please save the stupid come backs!
Zenyatta lost once .. .. this kid is a clown.
And I don’t think she ran on synthetic at all. She ran mostly at Santa anita.
@@vincentflauto7650she ran 18 out of 20 ON SYNTHETIC!! Santa Anita was synthetic for 4 years. People who don't know anything about horses should try the cat video channel..
If only you knew anything about class.
The only one that you were possibly right about was Bayern.
Had a feeling when i read the title of this video that I wasn't going to like it. First of all Zenyatta was a great horse. Synthetic or not. And Man o War? Really??? I really think you were reaching for a reaction from the viewers on this one. Man O War was clearly one of the best ever, and the fact that you put him on this list says to me you really don't know what your talking about.
Thank you for giving Foolish Pleasure his due.
You talk about Zenyatta ducking horses (I was never a fan), Secretariat NEVER gave any horse weight. Another way of ducking horses.
Secretariat retired at 3, so he didn't get a chance to give weight to younger horses. The terms of his record syndication agreement didn't allow him to race past 3, so I don't believe that the horse was "ducking" other horses.
However, you're wrong in that he did give weight in the Bayshore, Gotham and Arlington Invitational. Additionally, in the Marlboro Cup, technically, he did give weight on the weight for age scale. Secretariat carried 3 pounds over scale while the older horses were at scale or one pound over (Riva Ridge).
You are dumb...3 year olds don't "give weight" to older...
Ok Nathan here goes I knew all these modern horses in the 60's & early 70's I had alot of time on my hands early in the morning i had time so I started hot walking horse for Elliot Burch (one of the greatest trainers of our century-trained Rokeby Stables Mr Mellon) & his assistant John Vietch that was when John had hair actually (John became a Premiere trainer he trained Alydar you might've heard about this horse) I noticed a horse the first of March 1974 a 2 year old black coal with a sheen on Her that made Her glow in the sun light she was being walked by a friend of mine Benny he looked at me in shock "I know ain't she something then the next day it was before 5am they led her on the main track she cantered down to the mile pole and turned loose I never ever saw anything that fast in my life now I knew Whiteley (who I didn't like) played games with riding cloths use plain no name bridles so nobody would know the identity he was a oddball I knew he took yearling in the fall early winter to Camden S.C. & trained there he would also bring the up to Laurel unmarked & would train on good days there hiding the identity I watched & got near horse every chance I could I was a regular on the backstretch so I could come & go as I please at times she would stare at me almost thought she was about to talk. I watched work near the end of April 5f in 57flat saw Her 2 weeks later work 3f in 33flat on May 22 I finished hot walking met my Brother-in-law in the paddock followed the horse up the chute to the track went back into the stands emptied my pockets I believe it was the biggest big I ever did I remember it was 41/2to 1 paid $9 to win Oh! She decimated the field broke the track record for 5 & 1/2 FL ran the first quarter in 22 1/5 Nothing does that remember it's 1974 track variant & condition I went to the barn (after walking) there she was she glowed like the sun the rest is history She was faster than Secretariat's 2 yr old
Performance Ruffian was undefeated in her first ten races, covering distances from 5.5 furlongs (1.1 km) to 1.5 miles (2.4 km), with an average winning margin of 8 1⁄3 lengths. She set stakes records in each stakes race she entered. The best words I can say she not only was the greatest filly of all time - she was a LIVING FLAME
My GOD you had to see her to believe her I always thought that anything that perfect can't be allowed on this earth and maybe just maybe after Secretariat GOD said YOU AIN'T SEEN NOTHING YET
UNFORTUNATELY for us GOD decided to take Her back I wish All of you could have seen Her up close have Her look into your eyes as you stated at Her she was Angelic and I've been around some of the Greats that ever put a hoof on a track all I say is you might want to rethink your list to day she was overrated is like saying Joe Montana or Tom Brady is overrated she really is the standard that Champions are rated by. Next up tomorrow is Man of War is a horse I read about never saw, visited his grave in Kenneland talked with Ppl who are there that knew Mr Willy Harbut & who knew the horse.
YOU are 100% right. I saw her and if you saw her you knew you were looking at a gigantic POWERFUL force of nature just beatuiful and awe inspiring. I had never honestly felt AWE. in my life until HER. To me Secretariat looked big and powerful but even he didnt inspire me the way she did. and so da**d beautiful. the dream horse
Very good assessments and a great topic for discussion!
Bayern - I agree that he bombed out in the Travers and some other races. His biggest victory was the BC Classic where he took out the speed inside him be veering left right out of the gate and the inside horses jammed together, losing a lot of ground. This included the favorite Shared Belief. This helped Bayern get the inside track and not be challenged for the lead.
Arrogate was brilliant in the Travers and the Dubai World Cup. But like most of the progeny of his sire Unbridled's Song he just could not hold up for a long career. Unbridled Song's offspring average only a ten race career, one of the lowest of the big name sires. This is possibly the result of their heavy muscular bodies putting more weight on their delicate legs. Just a theory.
Zenyatta was amazing and had so much charisma. Her come from behind tactics were so exciting to watch that perhaps she is overrated despite her considerable success in the Breeder's Cup: winner of the Distaff, the BC Classic and a very close place horse in another BC Classic. Her "dances" before the race are virtually unprecedented and very entertaining. She did not start racing until November of her three year old year and did not compete in the big races for three year old fillies or the Triple Crown. With her breeding she should have been great on grass. The second Classic she was on an unfamiliar track, took the overland route and still closed like a freight train almost catching the hometown hero Blame who had the shortest way around by the rail. She and Winx have the same sire, Street Cry. Blame and Zenyatta both had Kris S. and Mr. Prospector as ancestors.
Winx did not get the chance to run outside Australia which leaves her great record open to criticism. Man O' War had to run in heavy iron shoes. Otherwise, he might have set records that lasted longer. I agree it is hard to compare over such a long time gap.
Ruffian was great but unfortunately was put in a match race and broke her leg. I think people put her and Barbaro on pedestals because of their sad fates.
Myself, I would rate American Pharoah as overrated. His greatest win, in my opinion, was the Kentucky Derby where he beat a very tough Firing Line. Firing Line already had had a testing campaign and he was softened up by AP's stablemate Dortmund as they vied for the lead most of the way. Dortmund got the lead in the Preakness but then was held back to run interference and force the rest of the field wide on the first turn helping AP. After that AP was generally the lone speed and when in the Travers they finally let Frosted use his speed he softened AP up for Keen Ice the sire of Rich Strike. In the BCC Classic he did beat the very tough Honor Code but he was able to set easy fractions with a lone lead. "Without Liam's Map, Smooth Roller and Beholder in the race, American Pharoah was expected to be able to get an unchallenged lead, which would allow him to set a comfortable pace and make it harder for others to close ground. Accordingly, his odds shortened from 6-5 on the morning line to 3-5 at post-time." Beyer, Andrew. "Breeders' Cup: American Pharoah getting a fortunate trip once again". Washington Post. Retrieved 17 November 2016.
That's just what happened. He did not get truly tested and despite his great record, like Ruffian, he left a lot of questions unanswered.
@@truthxposed8975 If we go by what ailments horse's have had while running we will be unable to determine greatness since most of these problems were not known by the public.
I would have had BIG BROWN on that list
Just found this video. Your assessment of Bayern BCC race is spot on. He won the race by wiping out the field.The plan was a get the lead at all costs. It worked, but IMHO he should of been DQ for that maneuver. I believe Martin Garcia was on Bayern can't remember. I am to lazy to look it up I am watching a close baseball game Lol.
All the top horses in your video are American. You have not even mentioned the great Phar Lap who was probably the greatest weight carrier in racing history. You have also rubbished the great mare Winx. I found your video to have a USA bias.
Maybe because I’m from the United States so it’s what I know best. Also i don’t exactly know what you want from me. Do you want me to include more Australian horses in an “overrated” horses list because you didn’t seem to like it when I brought up Winx (who I don’t even find overrated). And why would I talk about Phar Lap on a “Overrated Horses” when he’s fairly rated as a great racehorse.
Secretariat, you can't talk about liking another horse without his Rabid fans descending. Don't get me wrong I love him and he's only one of four horses I wish I was alive to see run (man o war, seabiscuit, and ruffian are the others.) It's to the point where I wish his records would just be broken so people will shut up for five minutes
I've known several track 'lifers' who think that Native Dancer is the best horse they have seen.
careful! blasphemy to hope his records could ever be broken or matched! lol
Some of Secretariat's records have been broken. His stakes records in the TC races stand, but not his Pimlico track record, and not his 9 f. world record on dirt.
@@marysueeasteregg thank you for the added info! :) i was mainly thinking of the TCs but this is also true.
i've been learning more over this past year, (not that i always absorb and remember things as readily as others xD) and there are these other horses who also have done great things/set records and with higher weights even, and it's just a shame when one horse is put above everybody else. not in all circles, but still.
@@DezmondFringe I actually do rank Secretariat GOAT. But I hold that as opinion, not as indisputable fact. I am very respectful of arguments for Man o'War or Citation or Kelso as GOAT, and there are others for whom one can make a reasoned argument. Of horses I saw/remember, Spectacular Bid is the only one* that made me wonder if I was seeing a horse as good as Secretariat. That is a minority opinion -- most rank Seattle Slew over him -- but I am not alone in it.
I have said on TH-cam, including probably elsewhere on this page, that is possible some of the European greats were greater than any of the American dirt horses, and I should have included Phar Lap. (I unhesitatingly rank the great European filly Enable over any American mare.) One of the reasons I rank Secretariat highest is that he was dominant on turf as well as dirt...but that was true for Kelso, too, and Fager won on grass as well.
*Actually, Arrogate made me wonder. He eliminated himself for me with the end of his career. But those four G1 wins, wow.
Most fans in all sports hold opinions about who was the greatest.
Where ya at? Sketchy! Been looking for your Belmont stuff!
Unfortunately I was in Orlando this week so I didn’t have time to make any Belmont Stakes content but I hope to make a history video or two soon that is Belmont themed if that helps.
@@SketchyTheHorseGuy Cool! Though you had retired at a young age! Lol
How could you even mention Winx on such a video. It has been suggested that because she only raced in Australia, this somehow devalues her career. With our huge prizemoney on offer in Australia, why would you risk a horse of such importance on a long-haul flight overseas. This would be a hiding to nothing. Just think of Verry Elleegent's unsuccessful trip to France and UK. Nothing gained. I certainly would not have considered sending Winx overseas. There is nothing stopping the "Worlds" best coming here if the connections think they are good enough. Still an interesting video though.
Don't forget verry eleegent was rising 8yo when she went to France and coming off a Melbourne cup in the spring. Very few horses recapture their best form after an arduous cup preparation. Further their main reason for going was to have her served by a top English stallion.
36 in a row. How many horses would have stayed sound and achieved half of what this great mare did. I watched her in the UK in the middle of the night every race. I'm pleased she stayed in Australia our prize money definitely wouldn't tempt Chris Waller. Although he didn't do too bad last year. It's the way she did it coming from the back. Hope one day we see a foal of hers with Chris
@@suemaher5282 you may not be aware Sue but she was more than likely racing on regumate as to why she didnt travel to the UK, it was banned in Victoria in 2018. New south Wales didnt ban it, making it very awkward for fillies and mares travelling to Victoria. When the regumate topic was an issue as to increased performance, I remember Ciaron maher saying his very good caulfield cup winning mare jameka didn't race on it, however some of his mares did according to their temperament , it also stops mares cycling and therefore race more consistently. I'm sure he would have had black caviar in mind when he decided not to go. Taking a mare off a substance abruptly would have a very detrimental effect on performance,
Black caviar raced many lengths below her best in England, although still winning. As you are aware regumate is banned in the UK.
And the main reason as you point out, was winning four cox plates, an amazing feat by possibly the greatest race mare in history. For those people who have doubts about the quality of Australian and New Zealand racing I assure you it is of the highest class. Examples would be balmerino in the seventies, rated equal best horse in the UK and Europe, then many years later starcraft beat dubawi the up and coming champ at the time. At that stage very few horses had gone to the UK and Europe to compete, later on of course our sprinters have done very well. Sadly over the last sixty years with prize money inducements and syndicaters wanting early returns, quick maturing types have come to dominate, and in the main rely on NZ and English horses to fill the void in distance races. Excluding 9 year olds, as a spring 4yo she had 6 crops eligible to race against her then 3 more crops of 3 yearolds over the following years that's 9 generations of horses. In comments I've read God knows how many times she beat nothing, to them many times I would ask what was the name of the horse in those 9 generations that may have given her a race. There was never a reply. Her times told all by comparison to other great horses.
@@iansmith587 What a great comment Ian. Informative and really interesting. I didn't know about the regumate. I know that Australia 🇦🇺 are becoming one of the best for welfare bringing in the new laws for the Melbourne Cup after Anthony Van Dyke broke down. Alot of people disagreed but its the right thing to do. Racing world wide is in trouble and protesters are for banning it so we need to follow Australia with these new regulations. We can never make it 100% safe but we are and you are trying to improve welfare which is a gd thing. As for Winx there is a lot of jealousy surrounding this great mare and if she'd been a British horse u would never have stopped hearing the praise. Anyone who loves racing knows she's amazing. It's like when Aidan Obrien wins a big one the abuse written is unbelievable. He's a genius but he's not British so he must be cheating its embarrassing. British racing is not the force it was and Australia Japan USA are where the big prizes are. So take no notice of criticism of Winx its jealousy. Any American should go and look at her races feel the atmosphere she generated and shut up. Enjoyed commenting with a knowledgable racing fan thanks Ian
I find your opinion flawed. What was the point of creating a video to knock horses bred, owned and raced by reputable people whose opinion is far better than your own?
Judging Ruffian based on her racing career is ridiculous. She was running in typical filly races very early in her career. She was far to early in her career. She was rated as the best horse by even the other trainers or other great horses at that time . Had she not broken down, she would have had a remarkable career.
Says you...
Man O' War is legendary because he sired greatness. Neither Secretariat nor Sea Buiscit sired greatness. Secretariat is the *grandsire* of greatness
Love your films with this kind of topic. Fascinating stuff. Have multiple comments. The Man O'War section will be its own as you are not seeing all the details. First, top 5 implies of ALL, and including such as Arrogate (a very good horse) and Bayern (good horse) means lots of people even pay attention to them NOW (just a few short years later). Zenyatta, I agree, though as time passes I haven't noticed as much obsession with her so maybe she won't need to be on a top 5 of all, either. But at the time, yes, definitely overrated - she's lucky she raced in 2 open races at all to prove anything. Man O'War, totally disagree. A hundred-year old horse that most people do not study or really know anything about (Colin [coal-in] was NOT "late 1800s" I think you said - he was right after SYsonby (not "Sinson-bee"] in the late Oughts). Ruffian - yes, I'd say she's THE most overrated horse of all time, likely even more than Kincsem. She may have been great, but she never, ever stepped outside her exact division (same-age females), so all those "records" were stake records against girls of her age, and the only "track records" she EQUALED (not set) were 5f races run almost exclusively by 2yos. Ruffian suffers from Martyr Syndrome - she broke down tragically so is held in high esteem out of pity. MS is common in history.
BTW, people obsessed on Ruffian need to consider another horse who had a similar career UP TO that time in her life. TOP FLIGHT. EXCEPT by that point Top Flight had multiple times beaten boys in stake races. Look at her stats up until July of her 3yo. Later, she tailed off a bit - which is another warning to Ruffian lovers. You don't know she would've looked so good later on. This is why Top Flight, though HOF and in the top 100 of the century, is not known much anymore. Further, I call Ruffian most overrated because there are seriously people who think she is THE greatest horse EVER, period. It's bad enough "racemare", but to say she's better than Secretariat (I don't care what his trainer said) and Man O'War and Dr. Fager and Kelso, etc. Ridiculous.
Say whatever you want …I just love, love, love Zenyatta and always will❤️
Who are you??? Never heard of you and hope I never do again! May this be your last video! It will most certainly be the last one I ever watch! 👎🏻👎🏻👎🏻👎🏻👎🏻👎🏻
It seems like you're a younger fan, so kudos for being into horse racing, it's a bit of an older crowd around here. First off, I think having this discussion is fine, but it seems as if your definition of "overrated' is not the best of all time. Since your never going to definitively say who the best of all time is officially, it's not a very good list to begin with because you're starting off with an impossible task. And to be honest, I agree with a couple horses on this list.
Like Bayern, yeah, he's not the greatest of all time. But it's weird he's even on this list because most people forgot that horse existed. Or Arrogate, he was very good for about 7 months and then fell off. Though his Dubai performance was impressive, I don't think he's even in the top 20 or even top 50 of most peoples greatest of all time.
Zenyatta being on the list isn't surprising because even when she was racing she was a divisive subject for racing fans. However, if you stick with this game and see as much racing as I have, you'll begin to appreciate what she did much more. To win 19 races in a row, at any level, even if she was a claimer as a deep closer, shouldn't be possible. She gave the middle finger to decades of pace handicapping for three seasons and for that she's a one off. It doesn't mean the greatest of all time. But she's one of the most unique.
Man O' War, like you say is a victim of his distances from our lives now. Let me put some context around your argument though. During Man o' war's racing days, the track was maintained by a team of mules pulling farm implements. They didn't have a starting gate! They just had a mesh web extended over the track and the horse and riders had to find their places before the web was lifted and the race was started. By the time Man o' war's records started to be broken they had turned track maintenance into a science and the starting gate was perfected. The fact that he's still considered possibly the greatest ever is a testament to how good he really was.
That leads me to my ultimate point. You have to view these horses through the context of their own time, and the impression they left on the people that saw them. Take Flying Childers for example. You can't know for sure how great he was in comparison to today's thoroughbreds and why would you, he's been dead for almost 300 years. But for centuries after his death, there were pubs and products named after him. Hell, the royal navy always named their fastest ship 'the flying childers' til damn near the 20th century.
As long as people are talking about the career's of horses like Man o' War, Zenyatta, and Ruffian, they weren't overrated, because of the impression they left.
horrible.......Arrogate was one of the best ive seen.......you downgrade a horse for being hurt?
Arrogate's son Arcangelo won the Belmont yesterday (Saturday, June 10, 2023)!
This is amazing content. I will subscribe. Keep it going buddy
I like the whole list, except I have to disagree with no. 1. Mainly because I've never considered her in the convo with Secretariat and others. I really want to compliment your editing and all the work you put in. Very impressive.
For sure, they’re definitely not in the same convo. The main reason I brought up the Secretariat argument at all is because Lucien Laurin was once quoted as saying “As God is my witness, she may be better than Secretariat." In reference to Ruffian. And because of that people regularly talk about Ruffian and Secretariat in the same breath. Which we both agree is a bit much. Also thanks for the editing compliments it did slow down the videos completion by a few days but I know I wouldn’t have the video any other way so I appreciate it.
@@SketchyTheHorseGuy Sure thing. If you have time (cause I know you do your own stuff), I should have a recording schedule for the Belmont Stakes weekend previews soon if you want to come on one or more of those. And if you ever want to talk, just let me know as well.
@@SketchyTheHorseGuy well she did beat him at short distances... And I'm not talking about Belmont fractions.
Stopped at Zenyatta. Absolutely preposterous.
MofWar was and is the greatest horse of all time. He died 100 years ago and “we” are still shouting his attributes
He died in '48. Not a century ago.
But the value of a racehorse doesn't only lie in his records, or winning streaks, it lies in his progeny (his get). And THAT puts Man O' War over all other horses, including Secretariat. You tend to forget why people even do racing.
Actually Man o’ War was a good, not great, sire. His first five years were fantastic, but once Elizabeth Daingerfield no longer handled his stud career, it never was so good. (She had incredible knowledge of bloodlines). His sire Fair Play was a much more important sire. Man o’ War did seem to be more successful than Secretariat at stud, though.
Ruffian had fractures at 2.......was killed by her trainer by racing her too much.....look how many times she raced before the breakdown.....she almost always wouldnt change leads, because of her problems......she never lost......she was never sound.......she was an absolute monster..
imagine if she was sound....
KG Ruffian was forced to run a match race by the jockey club. She started the match race with a hairline fracture... She was forced too soon...
@@MoniekRedhead she had fractures at 2.....she always had problems.......why talk about her?......she was not running as fast as flightline......she was young
Her trainer didn't killer her. No one would know that she would break down that day.
I saw her and no horse has ever caused chills to run down my back - she was a force of nature a magnificent animal
@@BarryReinitzthan you haven't seen many horses...MELAIR was a much faster 3yo filly than Ruffian, but because she didn't die, people don't talk about her
It was the way she won. If you had 10 bucks on Secretariat at Belmont or had $10 on Zenyata in any of her races, the first is witnessing history, the second is the maximum that a horse race can offer.
Click bait. Ruffian was the Flightline of her era. Insane talent. Zenyatta. A first and a second in the classic. You should perhaps stick to reviewing anime and Fortnite.
No, she ran against RESTRICTED bad 3 year old fillies...
Man O'War being called the "greatest" is still a good summation of his legacy. Great doesn't seem to always mean the best, simply a mixture of awe and impact. Like Muhammad Ali in Boxing.
Man O'War and Secretariat are probably the most common two horses a layperson could name drop if questioned. Thus their legacy looms large and they are the greatest. Hard facts and statistics aside
I'm missing the most ever overrated horse, SECRETARIAT...
Take away his TC races, then what do you have left?
Take away the 30 LENGTH WIN in the Belmont against tomatoes CAN'S 🍅 SECRETARIAT WOULD BE JUST ANOTHER TRIPLE CROWN WINNER 👀 SECRETARIAT AFTER THE TRACK RECORD AND 30 LENGTH BELMONT WIN WASN'T ABLE TO WIN ON DIRT EVER AGAIN 🤣 AFTER THE BELMONT WIN SECRETARIAT LOST TO A NOBODY CALLED ONION 🧅 WHEN FACING REAL COMPETITION SECRETARIAT WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH 🤣😂 HOW SAD SECRETARIAT HAD TO MOVE TO TURF JUST TO WIN ANOTHER RACE 🤣 MY TOP 3 THAT I SAW IN PERSON 1# FLIGHTLINE 🛫🛫✈️ 2# ZENYATTA 👊 3# A P INDY AND A BONUS 4# CANDY RIDE (ARG)
He won the Marlboro Cup which was the most important race of his career, if he loses that race he would have finished his career winless against open competition on dirt and would have been rated behind Seattle Slew, Affirmed, and Spectacular Bid without question
Briefly: Won at distances from 6 furlongs to 1 5/8 miles. Equaled 1 track record, set a turf course record, and set a track and world record, all OUTSIDE of the Triple Crown; and beat 2 U.S. Hall of Fame older horses while setting the world record.
In more detail:
At 2 years old, missed the track record for 1 1/16 miles by 1/5 second in the Laurel Futurity.
Horse of the Year at 2, which is all but unheard of. Had been impressive enough at 2 to be syndicated for a then-record amount of money, before he ever ran at 3. (That was based on looks & pedigree as well, factors separate from his track performance.)
Equaled the track record for one mile at Aqueduct in winning the 1973 Gotham Stakes.
Missed the track record for 1 1/8 miles by 1/5 second in the Arlington Invitational.
Toyed with good turf horses in his 2 starts on grass. Turcotte thought he was 10-15 lengths better on grass than on dirt.
Set a course (turf) record for 1 1/2 miles in the Man o'War.
Beat 2 U.S. Hall of Famers, an additional American champion, and a Canadian Hall of Famer/5X Canadian champion in the Marlboro Cup. Set a world record for 9 furlongs in that race.
I will add:
Forego's trainer Sherrill Ward was impressed enough with Secretariat in the Derby, in which Forego had finished 4th, that he refused to run Forego against Secretariat the remainder of 1973. Forego ran well enough the rest of the year that in the Eclipse Award voting he tied with Sham for second among the 3-year-old males.
As someone else points out elsewhere, in the Woodward Prove Out had to run what remains the second fastest 12 furlongs on the dirt at Belmont Park (2:25 4/5) to beat Secretariat. Secretariat's 2:26 & change would win all but a very few Belmonts. Secretariat finished 11 lengths ahead of the third place finisher -- Cougar II, a Hall of Famer.
==========
I've often thought Secretariat's 31-length victory in the Belmont has actually detracted from his legacy, because so much attention gets paid to that performance that the rest of his career gets overlooked. I've seen people who thought he did not even run after the Belmont.
@@marysueeasteregg For the record I think he's obviously one of the best ever, but objectively speaking his record is not as good as horses like Seattle Slew, Affirmed, or Spectacular Bid
Those horses won more races against top shelf competition
Yes, Secretariat had problems with health, ownership, training, and the syndication deal that prevented him from racing at 4 but all of that is part of the sport and contributes greatly to a horse's overall record
@DanielSong39 lf they never raced Slew in the Hollywood Derby, he arguably would have been perhaps looked at as being one of the very best.!!!
Ruffian died at age 3, she was only a baby. Never got to see retirement, only the horrors of racing. She deserves all the respect in the world.
I'm a Hardened Viet Nam Vet '67-'68 but that next day in July I cried - RUFFIAN 🔥 the Greatest Horse I've ever seen was put to sleep There Never Will Be One Like HER ---->
th-cam.com/video/AioSaq4Dasg/w-d-xo.html
And your feelings cloud your judgment..
There isn't any clouding of my judgement these are facts that I actually lived through saw with my own eyes and luckily was was on the grounds while these horses lived & raced I knew most of them do this isn't guessing
My family was involved in racing - racetracks before I was born and I naturally matriculated to that as I came of age. REAL LIFE FACTS as it was and how they acted - lived & raced
"Who did Ruffian beat? Nobody." I heard that same old tired comment used against Rachel Alexandra and Zenyatta. You're entitled to your own opinion.
Ruffian = melair. And if you don't know who that was, look it up. Many 3yo fillies win that way...yawn.
Bayern,arrogate,winx...okay they were not great for sure...but Zenyatta the best filly of all time come on
She was not better than Rachel...Not even That Close
Arrogate and Winx are amazing horses. Both of them way better than Zenyatta
Ouch...turned it off at Ruffian. Watched her breakdown that day...broke my heart. Damn, I have no words...
This guy has lost his mind and comes up with some ignorant objections. Ruffian, Zenyatta and Man of War overrated? Hmmm...
I'm an Australian and your take on Man O war is uncalled for go and read what you can't see he was highly regarded because he was a freak.
World record by swaps yes but those records have long been broken
Spectacular Bid still holds the world record at the 1 1/4 mile. 43 years later.
I totally agree with your assessment of Bayern and Arrogate but when looking at horses further back in racing history I feel that you are not factoring in the condition of track surfaces for that era. If you compare what type of dirt racing surface that Man O' War ran on compared to the speed influencing tracks of today then you have to wonder how much faster Man O' War could have been which is why I still believe that he would have beat Secretariat.
Northern Dancer, Canadian I know. But he emprover a whole generation and generations to follow !
Nearco the grandaddy of them all !!!
I would compare Ruffian to Rachel Alexandra (talent wise, if she would have stayed alive). Zenyatta was IMO better on dirt than on synthetics. If anything lost her the 2nd breeders cup it was her shoes, queens plates. I would rank her amongst the top 20 of all time. For a second I was fearing you would put Frankel at the top spot. Thankfully you didn't. 😅
Mike Smith took ownership but he somewhat lost her that race, he kept her way too far back early and she also didnt like the kickback in the early stages
No...ruffian NOTHING like Rachel. Ruffian EXACTLY like Melair...research it if you don't know.
If anyone needs to know why Flightline was retired after Breeders Cuo - see Arrogate’s last few starts.
Discreet Cat too
I would have loved to see a match race between Dr. Fager, Ghostzapper, Flightline, and Discreet Cat in their peaks
But knowing what we do about these horses Dr. Fager would have probably won in a walkover after the other three scratched LOL
A horse , Arrogate won over seventeen million bucks during his career , if that is overrated you don’t know what you are talking about. By the way , he sired Arcangelo this years winner of the Belmont Stakes.
I was at track and watched these 🐎🐎🐎🐎 live. Wonder why no one made something like this , because it stupid!
Look at Man o War's time in the Travers.
Undeniably longest stride- Man of War’s stride was 28 feet compared to secretariat’s 25. Would have been a fabulous match race.
Ruffian died to soon, she is still my favorite racehorse. RIP Ruffian!
Shame on you! Man O War was amazing! So was Ruffian!
Facts on Arrogate
He was absolutely brilliant for 4 races then lost form. It happens. It happened to Discreet Cat too
Won 7 out of 8