Interesting. Lutheran here, and in our congregation growing up, the wording was always "As a called and ordained minister of the Church of Christ, I declare to you the entire forgiveness of all your sins." I actually have not heard the wording "I forgive you" used by the pastor before.
The difference is semantic. The "I-Thou" structure is retained in either form. To forgive is to announce forgiveness (and especially when we factor in that it is not the pastor as a man but Christ speaking in/through the office of the man.. wherein the power of God's mercy resides).
@@vngelicath1580It's really not though. Just like saying "go in peace be warmed and filled" is different from "here, I am warming and filling you". The difference is who is doing the action. The Pastor. On God's authority. The authority to forgive, not declare. Like Peterson just said.
@@nilsalmgren4492 Correct. Raised in the ELCA. Not a fan of certain decisions they made, say in summer of 2009, but still see a lot of good in the congregations I've participated in.
I have always wondered why the pastor after corporate confession turns towards the congregation and says ,"With the authority that God has given me ........I forgive your sins".Thank you Dr.Jordan
Sovereignty belongs to god and god alone. His will is truely independent and not even an electron would go into a state that is not willed by the god. All we can do is to pray for our and others' forgiveness, for he is merciful and kind. I don't know what is so confusing about that?
@@Catholic-Perennialist That would be the case if you were given those powers, but he is not you. LOL You are think about god from a very human perspective, his ways and human ways are not same, are they? after all he created everything.
That's heresy, actually. It's a corporate and evangelical absolution. The minister has no authority whatsoever to forgive sins. He's pronouncing what the Gospel pronounces, namely that those who truly believe and repent are forgiven. This is another reason why I am not and never will be a Lutheran. Thank-you.
I just wanted to thank you so much for this video. When the Lord opened my eyes to His gospel and the Christ, I became very interested in what each denomination held as doctrine. I was raised Baptist (with a strong emphasis on Sola Fide) and now ARP Presbyterian, so I was particularly interested in Catholicism and EO soteriology. I was actually very open to the idea of the sacrament of Confession as a therapeutic means of working through sin. However, when I read more into Catholic theology, I couldn’t help but feel distraught. I felt it was so legalistic and this actually sent me into a tunnel of despair thinking that my Catholic brothers and sisters would believe Im condemned. I started reading into the ECF and found the sacrament of Penance, which they described as a means of confessing grievous sins to the entire community. And I agree with this as a means of church discipline, but I just didn’t particularly understand how it had morphed into what it was today. I wasn’t able to really come to terms with this for a while because I felt I fell into a similar position of St. Augustine. I held a traditional Reformed doctrine of grace (though I do think the way many Protestants frame sola fide may lead too much into antinomianism), but a Catholic doctrine of ecclesiology. I really wanted to figure out how to ameliorate these ideas and it caused me much anxiety. I had found some semblance of rest knowing that the EO church’s view on Confession is not so legalistic. I continued coming back to verses like these to understand how the church played a role in the forgiveness of sins and this video finally made it click for me! Praise the Lord our God for allowing me to find you! May He bless you! Sorry, Im really bad at stringing together my words, even when I am writing. Im certainly not as eloquent as you are! God bless.
I was born and raised a Catholic and learned a lot about it in my 85 years. Two things about the Roman Catholic Church. 1 - It is more of a giant conglomerate company than a religion with its goal set more on the gathering of wealth than the saving of souls. 2 - The Catholic Church is the only organization I know of that is more corrupt than the Democratic Party of the United States of America.
Having been in Lutheran churches my whole life, confession and absolution just seems like a fundamental part of preparing one's heart for The Lord's Supper. At the very least, I would hope some other churches declare forgivess from Christ.
@@jamestrotter3162 I'm aware of that, I meant I hoped churches that have a problem with the minster saying "I forgive," at least say God forgives your sins.
@@D1900fas But the Lord's Supper is about receiving a tangible element of forgiveness through Jesus' body and blood, which is why confessing sins and a creed are often done before it in a traditional service to insure we have a right attitude. Paul specifically instructs this in 1 Corinthians 11: 'Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself." The washing of feet is a debatable thing when it comes to fellowship to show servitude to others, but that's not the purpose of The Lord's Supper. Maybe you could argue those distributing the sacrament could do something like the washing of feet first to humble themselves as nothing more than servers.
@litigioussociety4249 the Passover(Lord's Supper which the western pagan church in Rome later abolished in 325a.d, replacing the Lord's supper with Easter) contains infinite Truths.. Christ taught "Unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you have no life". Exactly has he told Peter, "Unless I wash you, you have no part with me". I suggest you re read John 13. When Christ washed the feet of the discipline, it was certainly not debatable. Nor was it simply a teaching on humility. Christ fulfills all aspects of the Law. He is God, the temple, the High Priest, the animal sacrifice, the law etc. Under the new covenant we, the followers of Christ, are all priests. Unlike the old covenant the tribe of Levi only were priests. Before the priest must wash himself before entering the tabernacle/temple. Now we/priest must wash our feet(not our entire body since we have been already been cleaned thru baptism) before we enter the Christ/Temple. As Christ said after washing His disciples feet, "Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them(wash each other's feet). The feet washing ceremony is absolutely necessary before partaking in the Lord's supper. Reading John 13, understanding the new covenant, how can you say its debatable
The clearest text is the one that you failed because the Greek construction is a condition of second class implying just probability. Also there is a Devine passive implying that Hod is the one who forgives and we just declare. Additionally, the one to forgive is indefinite for which we don’t know exactly if the pronoun refers to Christian o nonChristian. So, John 20 doesn’t teach categorically that men can forgive sins. It states if you all (colectively) probably or potentially forgive the sins of any, the sins of any has been forgiven. If you noticed even the apodosis is not in future even when we can translate it in future due to the fulfillment of the condition (protasis). So basically, the provision for sin when the potential case occur to “forgive” sins have been already forgiven by GOD, the other Devine passive agent, so the forgiveness here is just DECLARATORY!
What's the difference. God, in Christ is the "efficient cause" of all sacramental power (the root of which is God's mercy for Christ's sake), _means of grace_ are instrumental causes, mediums, or channels. To say that ordained ministers (or even the collective body of Christians) possess the authority to "forgive sins" on behalf of the sinful world is not to contradict the reality that ONLY God can forgive. God forgives _through_ instrumental means.
I'm not a Lutheran, closer to a Baptist doctrinally, but this is an area where I think I'd agree with this understanding more. I've always thought 1 Cor 5:3-5 and 2 Cor 2:5-11 were an example of this in the early church, though I've never heard someone else say this. However I think even in Evangelical circles this may be practiced even if it isn't taught directly, in the sense that when sin is revealed, church elders or the church effectively decide if they should act toward that person as if they are forgiven or not forgiven. However I think having clearer doctrine about this is important, also for myself.
Most confession used to be general/liturgical, even in the Roman Church. The construct of the Confessional became widespread and popular in the High Middle Ages, around 1100--1200 AD.
this is an issue I'd like to research more indepth do you have any resources to reference speaking on it? I'm devout lcms Lutheran, just curious about the subject
Can you do a video on closed vs. open communion? I identify as an Anglican, but there arent any solid Anglican churches to the new area I'm moving to. So I checked out a Lutheran church apart of the Missouri Synod. I was loving the liturgy and the preaching until they denied me the eucharist because I am not lutheran even though I am a baptized Christian. Now im honestly pretty turned off. I understand if this isn't enough to prevent people from becoming Lutheran, especially if they agree with everything else. But I don't see any biblical support for this, and seems very un-Christ like and downright ridiculous. Bordering on blasphemous sectarianism.
Closed communion is practiced in confessional Lutheran churches because we are confessing a unity in faith. Additionally, we want to ensure that communicants understand what they are partaking of and are not bringing condemnation on themselves (1 Cor 11:29). This practice is not unique to Lutherans, it is the Catholic and Orthodox position as well.
@@ssur_yam9so say someone was curious about being Lutheran so they visit a while and it takes a while to become a member.. does this mean they can’t be forgiven the whole time their there? Sorry if I’m misunderstanding.
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@Jordan Cooper You said "there's no special power in them" at the end. Do Lutheran's believe that in Ordination a grace from the Holy Spirit to carry out the work of a priest is imparted?
Thanks, Dr. Cooper! Does Matthew 9:8, “God… had given such authority [to forgive sins] to men” also apply to support the texts you mentioned in Matthew 16 and 18?
Would this not point to sins against man like in the Lord's Prayer and the parable of the ungrateful servant? When we sin against each other I would agree with you, but I'm not sure you can extend this to sins against God. That seems like a bit of a stretch.
My understanding of Matthew 18, is that Jesus is giving all Christians the authority to forgive those who have sinned against them. And Christ saying, that if we Forgive those who have sinned against us, then Our Father in Heaven will forgive those sins too. The implication being, that no one in Hell will be punished for a sin committed against a Christian, because all such sins will be forgiven. Only those sins they have committed against other people in Hell (and ultimately against God) will be attributed to them.
The expansion of this being if Christians refuse to forgive them and bind them, then our own sins will be bound to us as well. Like the Lords Prayer passage and the Ungrateful Servant.
@gosh_jm Yes. But I was actually quoting the Bible there when the Pharisees and the teachers of the Law were questioning Jesus's authority on forgiving sins. Luke 5:21. They understood that only God can forgive sins. They thought it was blasphemy for Jesus to come along and forgive sins with His word alone. Knowing the Law, they must have thought, what about the sacrifices, the priesthood, the Temple and festivals etc.. Jesus is not blaspheming because He is God who has authority to forgive sins. The fact that Jesus forgave sins itself proves He is God. Who can forgive sins but God alone, Jesus has the authority to forgive sin. If Jesus chooses to grant the forgiveness to sins to His disciples, it is His right to do so
The answer to this depends on how you look at it. If you mean can every Christian forgive sin, the answer is yes. Does a Lutheran pastor have some special position between us and God where he has special power that others do not? That answer is no.
Why are you repeating Matthew 16, while citing Matthew 18, specifically Matthew 18:18 for the forgiveness, and 18:19-20 for the communal (church) part of forgiveness and prayer? Gotta be a verbal typo, right?
Now, I’d also like to see the continuing as the elders of James 5:14-15 both healed and forgave sins through the prayer of faith. It’s a clear connection.
Can CHRISTIANS forgive sins of other? No 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. James 5:15-16 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed In acts 8:13 the simon believed and got baptized but in 22-25 Peter's response is to pray to God for forgiveness. 22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity.” 24 Then Simon answered and said, “Pray to the Lord for me, that none of the things which you have spoken may come upon me.”
Well Matthew 18:15-20, I (attend the Lutheran church) have a neighbor (he attends the Catholic church) who lied to me I went to him he admitted he said it and show no concern he doesnt care. I thought about going to his church but haven't. I told a church friend about it he said you did what you were suppose to by going to him what say you?
I am Catholic. I think the next step is you go with some of you brothers/or sister and then I if he still doesn't repent then you take it to his Priest. What the Priest will do about it will probably depend on the Priest I don't know if they have universal training about this, but it will be interesting to see how that plays out. I haven't seen this actually play out in real life. The concept is similar to the military though where you seek to resolve issues at the lowest possible level in the chain of command.
We have to remember the Catholic church is really a hospital for sinners. But not everyone that attends is taking the prescribed medication. So just because he is Catholic doesn't mean he is going to currently resemble a great Saint yet.
Where is it written that it was possible to "pass the keys" to anyone else or where did Christ say, "You Apostles can give this power to whomever you will." How do we know "the keys" could be passed to anyone besides those specific persons to whom Christ directly bestowed them and breathed upon? (not doubting it, but wondering)
@@cooperthatguy1271 This doesn't say anything about keys. It just says the person (probably the one from 1Cor 5 who was committing incest) was causing Paul grief because of his sin against the church and that he forgives the person if the congregation forgives him. It doesn't say the keys were passed, but you're right it shows the local church possesses the right to forgive and even an Apostle respected that local authority. I think Jesus mentions this as well in Matt 18:17,18.
What happens when you don’t confess (at least not as often as you should) and yet you still have faith that you’re forgiven your sins? Can you answer this directly, without reframing it, and with absolute certainty (ie., with Scripture?) And if you can’t, why not?
If you're unrepentant, you are in your sins. But if you are truly repentant and trying to turn your life away from sin, that is an invisible confession so to speak. Is God going to smite you because you didn't outwardly confess your sins but are repentant and trusting in God's grace for salvation? I don't think so. The act of verbal confession isn't what saves us, it's the faith in Christ which saves. If for whatever reason a Christian doesn't confess their sins to God (yet is repentant), I think that needs to be addressed and sorted out but I wouldn't go as far to say they're still in their sins. If you are repentant then you have confessed you are sinful - whether outwardly with your voice or inwardly with your mind and soul. If you trust in God to save your sinful state, you are indeed saved through Christ. The closest thing I could point to is Psalm 19:12: "Who can discern his errors? Forgive my hidden faults." God, forgive us for the sins we don't even realize we commit. We trust Jesus paid for those sins too.
@@restedassurance So is our salvation on condition of our confession of sins or is it a forensic righteousness that saves us? I’m not in my sins if my sins are paid-never mind the role of confession and absolution (for this point anyway).
@@restedassurance Hello- I think you're mixing grace and the law. Either you're alive to a law that can condemn you, or you aren't. The Spirit of Christ ministers righteousness, not condemnation, to sinners. The law and the angels that God gave the law through are ministers of death to sinners, not righteousness. Christ is the minister and High Priest of a better covenant with better promises. Galatians 3:19-20 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
Galatians 3:23-25 "Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian." 1 Cor 15:56-57 "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." If you've died to the law, how can sin hurt you anymore? Romans 4:14-15 "For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
@@PizzaDisguise I’m not sure you’ve understood. I am saying that Lutherans have given me the law again. My pastor tells me in no uncertain terms that we make ourselves “ritually unclean” by sin and shame, which eventually leads to a corrosion of our saving faith which itself is the reception of the Word and Sacrament. In other words: if I stop coming to church I am probably going to damn myself. That means that for Lutherans it’s like being in the garden again. As long as we are presently receiving God’s gifts and not rejecting them to choose sin instead, we are saved. But right or wrong this is a different hope than I had. My hope was that God would save me from my wandering and bring me to a certain rest in his assurances of union with Christ who did all that needed to be done to save me already. … Not, in other words, “oh sure you’re saved-that is, if you do x,y,z to receive the faith that receives your salvation!” Well what happened to me being saved from damnation? The wandering IS the thing we need saving from! Of course I wander away! I’m a sinner! What is God saving me from if by being a sinner and wandering away from church I risk damning myself? You may as well tell me it’s easy, just don’t sin! It’s basically “you’re saved if you receive salvation by receiving salvation-and you’re damned if you don’t.” But what exactly would we be saved from? We’re not guaranteed salvation from the only thing that’ll damn us! We’re damned by not having faith and according to Lutheranism we have faith by certain works, namely something as simple and easy (but nonetheless a work) as attending the divine service, etc.
Everyone believes that the "Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven" are the source of any Church's authority to forgive sin. The debate is over whether the "Keys" belonged to St. Peter, alone (and his successor bishops/those in communion with him), OR whether all the Apostles collectively shared in the office of the keys (and their successor bishops), OR whether the latter is true, but both bishops _AND_ presbyters are equally successors of the Apostles, OR whether the Church as a whole (clergy and laity) possess the keys but the ordained ministers, either bishop or presbyter, merely exercise its public use on behalf of the collective Church. How one sees this issue is going to affect how necessary you regard episcopal succession, AND YET has no bearing on a theology of what the "keys" are and what they do.
Lutherans do have apostolic succession. Luther was an ordained priest. The Churches of the Augsburg confession weren't a group of laity that broke away and started ordaining themselves. It's multiple churches across multiple countries with both priests and bishops who were unjustly excommunicated.
The fact that Luther was a priest has no importance. Lutherans reject sacramental priesthood, so obviously their “priests” are not sacramentally ordained -> no apostolic succession whatsoever.
So and the end of these theological contortions, all one needs to do is to join a LCMS church. But if I can't get to YOU, then I'm in big trouble. Right? 🤔
You are not interpreting the Verses properly. Even if I'm generous for john 20 yet its the Apostles who have authority to forgive sins. Not Pastor/ bishop.
The office of the keys is a made-up term. This is RC Light. We need Pastors, elders and teachers, they don't have the authority to dispense and administer Gods grace. That would violate 1 Timothy 2:5.
How can men forgive sins if they don't know the heart or the honesty of the confessor, nor if the confessor refuses to forgive others? I don't think it's at all "clear" that power was given to Peter to forgive sins. That's a very specific, and indirect interpretation of the passage. The elephant in the room however is why does the church NEED to forgive sins? If we have our own ability to repent and seek forgiveness individually, of what use is a priest in this regard? It's not too much more of a stretch to then get into the church having authority over salvation. Historically, this kind of imaginary power was wielded over people and nations to control them.
If Jesus Christ died on the cross FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF MY SINS, why do some Priests and Ministers believe that I must confess my sins to them and THEY decide if my sins are forgiven? If that is the case, then JESUS CHRIST was a failure in His attempt to forgive my sins and he went through all that torture and pain for nothing. I, for one, do not think that Jesus Christ was a failure.
"And Penance, with which is joined sacramental confession, by the words, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." [NRSV]; {John 20:23} and by the words, “unless you repent, you will [all] likewise perish.” {Luke 13:3,5}" - Patr. Dositheus Notarius Hello! In bodies like RC, EO, Reformed and Lutheran to name some, Confession is seen as having come from the Gospel and Early Church. "Verily I say unto you, whatsoever ye shall bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven." - Matthew 18:18 "And I will give unto thee the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven." - Matthew 16:19 "Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a Righteous man avails much." - James 5:16
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Interesting. Lutheran here, and in our congregation growing up, the wording was always "As a called and ordained minister of the Church of Christ, I declare to you the entire forgiveness of all your sins." I actually have not heard the wording "I forgive you" used by the pastor before.
The difference is semantic. The "I-Thou" structure is retained in either form. To forgive is to announce forgiveness (and especially when we factor in that it is not the pastor as a man but Christ speaking in/through the office of the man.. wherein the power of God's mercy resides).
@@vngelicath1580thank you for the clarification. I've often wondered about this as well.
@@vngelicath1580It's really not though. Just like saying "go in peace be warmed and filled" is different from "here, I am warming and filling you". The difference is who is doing the action. The Pastor. On God's authority. The authority to forgive, not declare. Like Peterson just said.
You must not be Missouri Synod because their order of services has a Pastor say he forgives their sins.
@@nilsalmgren4492 Correct. Raised in the ELCA. Not a fan of certain decisions they made, say in summer of 2009, but still see a lot of good in the congregations I've participated in.
Thank you Dr. Cooper for all the great videos. They have been really been helpful for me as newly becoming a believer.
I have always wondered why the pastor after corporate confession turns towards the congregation and says ,"With the authority that God has given me ........I forgive your sins".Thank you Dr.Jordan
@@Catholic-Perennialist Good point. We can forgive sins concerning what has been done to us by someone.
Love reading about the Office of the Keys from my small catechism. It brings so much comfort to my soul. Thank you Dr. Cooper 😊
Sovereignty belongs to god and god alone. His will is truely independent and not even an electron would go into a state that is not willed by the god. All we can do is to pray for our and others' forgiveness, for he is merciful and kind. I don't know what is so confusing about that?
@@Catholic-Perennialist That would be the case if you were given those powers, but he is not you. LOL You are think about god from a very human perspective, his ways and human ways are not same, are they? after all he created everything.
That's heresy, actually. It's a corporate and evangelical absolution. The minister has no authority whatsoever to forgive sins. He's pronouncing what the Gospel pronounces, namely that those who truly believe and repent are forgiven. This is another reason why I am not and never will be a Lutheran. Thank-you.
I just wanted to thank you so much for this video. When the Lord opened my eyes to His gospel and the Christ, I became very interested in what each denomination held as doctrine. I was raised Baptist (with a strong emphasis on Sola Fide) and now ARP Presbyterian, so I was particularly interested in Catholicism and EO soteriology. I was actually very open to the idea of the sacrament of Confession as a therapeutic means of working through sin. However, when I read more into Catholic theology, I couldn’t help but feel distraught. I felt it was so legalistic and this actually sent me into a tunnel of despair thinking that my Catholic brothers and sisters would believe Im condemned.
I started reading into the ECF and found the sacrament of Penance, which they described as a means of confessing grievous sins to the entire community. And I agree with this as a means of church discipline, but I just didn’t particularly understand how it had morphed into what it was today. I wasn’t able to really come to terms with this for a while because I felt I fell into a similar position of St. Augustine. I held a traditional Reformed doctrine of grace (though I do think the way many Protestants frame sola fide may lead too much into antinomianism), but a Catholic doctrine of ecclesiology. I really wanted to figure out how to ameliorate these ideas and it caused me much anxiety. I had found some semblance of rest knowing that the EO church’s view on Confession is not so legalistic. I continued coming back to verses like these to understand how the church played a role in the forgiveness of sins and this video finally made it click for me! Praise the Lord our God for allowing me to find you! May He bless you!
Sorry, Im really bad at stringing together my words, even when I am writing. Im certainly not as eloquent as you are! God bless.
I was born and raised a Catholic and learned a lot about it in my 85 years. Two things about the Roman Catholic Church. 1 - It is more of a giant conglomerate company than a religion with its goal set more on the gathering of wealth than the saving of souls. 2 - The Catholic Church is the only organization I know of that is more corrupt than the Democratic Party of the United States of America.
Why I am glad I go to a MS Lutheran church, and extra glad for these excellent lectures by Dr. Cooper. Always excellent videos. A++++
Having been in Lutheran churches my whole life, confession and absolution just seems like a fundamental part of preparing one's heart for The Lord's Supper. At the very least, I would hope some other churches declare forgivess from Christ.
The Anglican church does, as well as the Catholic church.
@@jamestrotter3162 I'm aware of that, I meant I hoped churches that have a problem with the minster saying "I forgive," at least say God forgives your sins.
You know what would be an even better way to prepare the Lord's supper Passover.. Washing each other's feet
@@D1900fas But the Lord's Supper is about receiving a tangible element of forgiveness through Jesus' body and blood, which is why confessing sins and a creed are often done before it in a traditional service to insure we have a right attitude. Paul specifically instructs this in 1 Corinthians 11:
'Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself."
The washing of feet is a debatable thing when it comes to fellowship to show servitude to others, but that's not the purpose of The Lord's Supper. Maybe you could argue those distributing the sacrament could do something like the washing of feet first to humble themselves as nothing more than servers.
@litigioussociety4249 the Passover(Lord's Supper which the western pagan church in Rome later abolished in 325a.d, replacing the Lord's supper with Easter) contains infinite Truths.. Christ taught "Unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you have no life". Exactly has he told Peter, "Unless I wash you, you have no part with me". I suggest you re read John 13. When Christ washed the feet of the discipline, it was certainly not debatable. Nor was it simply a teaching on humility. Christ fulfills all aspects of the Law. He is God, the temple, the High Priest, the animal sacrifice, the law etc. Under the new covenant we, the followers of Christ, are all priests. Unlike the old covenant the tribe of Levi only were priests. Before the priest must wash himself before entering the tabernacle/temple. Now we/priest must wash our feet(not our entire body since we have been already been cleaned thru baptism) before we enter the Christ/Temple. As Christ said after washing His disciples feet, "Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them(wash each other's feet). The feet washing ceremony is absolutely necessary before partaking in the Lord's supper. Reading John 13, understanding the new covenant, how can you say its debatable
Great! Cleared my question up.
such a concise, well structured video! The concept of absolution is a source of much contention between me and my protestant brothers
Thank you, Dr.
Thanks for your content. Great subject for a video.
I kind of knew this, but this was fantastic and I think I actually understand it now. Thank you.
The clearest text is the one that you failed because the Greek construction is a condition of second class implying just probability. Also there is a Devine passive implying that Hod is the one who forgives and we just declare. Additionally, the one to forgive is indefinite for which we don’t know exactly if the pronoun refers to Christian o nonChristian. So, John 20 doesn’t teach categorically that men can forgive sins. It states if you all (colectively) probably or potentially forgive the sins of any, the sins of any has been forgiven. If you noticed even the apodosis is not in future even when we can translate it in future due to the fulfillment of the condition (protasis). So basically, the provision for sin when the potential case occur to “forgive” sins have been already forgiven by GOD, the other Devine passive agent, so the forgiveness here is just DECLARATORY!
What's the difference. God, in Christ is the "efficient cause" of all sacramental power (the root of which is God's mercy for Christ's sake), _means of grace_ are instrumental causes, mediums, or channels. To say that ordained ministers (or even the collective body of Christians) possess the authority to "forgive sins" on behalf of the sinful world is not to contradict the reality that ONLY God can forgive. God forgives _through_ instrumental means.
I'm not a Lutheran, closer to a Baptist doctrinally, but this is an area where I think I'd agree with this understanding more. I've always thought 1 Cor 5:3-5 and 2 Cor 2:5-11 were an example of this in the early church, though I've never heard someone else say this. However I think even in Evangelical circles this may be practiced even if it isn't taught directly, in the sense that when sin is revealed, church elders or the church effectively decide if they should act toward that person as if they are forgiven or not forgiven. However I think having clearer doctrine about this is important, also for myself.
Most confession used to be general/liturgical, even in the Roman Church. The construct of the Confessional became widespread and popular in the High Middle Ages, around 1100--1200 AD.
this is an issue I'd like to research more indepth do you have any resources to reference speaking on it? I'm devout lcms Lutheran, just curious about the subject
Can you do a video on closed vs. open communion? I identify as an Anglican, but there arent any solid Anglican churches to the new area I'm moving to. So I checked out a Lutheran church apart of the Missouri Synod. I was loving the liturgy and the preaching until they denied me the eucharist because I am not lutheran even though I am a baptized Christian. Now im honestly pretty turned off. I understand if this isn't enough to prevent people from becoming Lutheran, especially if they agree with everything else. But I don't see any biblical support for this, and seems very un-Christ like and downright ridiculous. Bordering on blasphemous sectarianism.
th-cam.com/video/OG1sopM7CsU/w-d-xo.html
Closed communion is practiced in confessional Lutheran churches because we are confessing a unity in faith. Additionally, we want to ensure that communicants understand what they are partaking of and are not bringing condemnation on themselves (1 Cor 11:29). This practice is not unique to Lutherans, it is the Catholic and Orthodox position as well.
@@ssur_yam9so say someone was curious about being Lutheran so they visit a while and it takes a while to become a member.. does this mean they can’t be forgiven the whole time their there? Sorry if I’m misunderstanding.
he doesn't specifically say sins are bound and loosed. binding and loosing could apply to rules also. He isn't as specific about it being sins only.
Even though I’m Lutheran educated, I still see that only God can forgive sins.
Yes but the Church is the Body of Christ here on Earth to do the work of God.
🕆 John 8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life,..”🕆
Let God’s Peace and Grace be with you (To The Reader). Praise God always. Amen 🕆🙏🙌
@Jordan Cooper You said "there's no special power in them" at the end. Do Lutheran's believe that in Ordination a grace from the Holy Spirit to carry out the work of a priest is imparted?
Thanks, Dr. Cooper! Does Matthew 9:8, “God… had given such authority [to forgive sins] to men” also apply to support the texts you mentioned in Matthew 16 and 18?
Dr. Cooper, how often do you see personal confession and absolution in the Lutheran church like it is in the Catholic church?
Would this not point to sins against man like in the Lord's Prayer and the parable of the ungrateful servant? When we sin against each other I would agree with you, but I'm not sure you can extend this to sins against God. That seems like a bit of a stretch.
My understanding of Matthew 18, is that Jesus is giving all Christians the authority to forgive those who have sinned against them. And Christ saying, that if we Forgive those who have sinned against us, then Our Father in Heaven will forgive those sins too. The implication being, that no one in Hell will be punished for a sin committed against a Christian, because all such sins will be forgiven. Only those sins they have committed against other people in Hell (and ultimately against God) will be attributed to them.
The expansion of this being if Christians refuse to forgive them and bind them, then our own sins will be bound to us as well. Like the Lords Prayer passage and the Ungrateful Servant.
Who can forgive sin but God alone
Did you watch the video?
@gosh_jm Yes. But I was actually quoting the Bible there when the Pharisees and the teachers of the Law were questioning Jesus's authority on forgiving sins. Luke 5:21. They understood that only God can forgive sins. They thought it was blasphemy for Jesus to come along and forgive sins with His word alone. Knowing the Law, they must have thought, what about the sacrifices, the priesthood, the Temple and festivals etc.. Jesus is not blaspheming because He is God who has authority to forgive sins. The fact that Jesus forgave sins itself proves He is God. Who can forgive sins but God alone, Jesus has the authority to forgive sin. If Jesus chooses to grant the forgiveness to sins to His disciples, it is His right to do so
Also don't forget about Mat. 18.18, in the context of Christ speaking to all the apostles,👌
The answer to this depends on how you look at it. If you mean can every Christian forgive sin, the answer is yes. Does a Lutheran pastor have some special position between us and God where he has special power that others do not? That answer is no.
Why are you repeating Matthew 16, while citing Matthew 18, specifically Matthew 18:18 for the forgiveness, and 18:19-20 for the communal (church) part of forgiveness and prayer? Gotta be a verbal typo, right?
Now, I’d also like to see the continuing as the elders of James 5:14-15 both healed and forgave sins through the prayer of faith. It’s a clear connection.
Can CHRISTIANS forgive sins of other? No
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
James 5:15-16
15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed
In acts 8:13 the simon believed and got baptized but in 22-25 Peter's response is to pray to God for forgiveness.
22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity.”
24 Then Simon answered and said, “Pray to the Lord for me, that none of the things which you have spoken may come upon me.”
Well Matthew 18:15-20, I (attend the Lutheran church) have a neighbor (he attends the Catholic church) who lied to me I went to him he admitted he said it and show no concern he doesnt care. I thought about going to his church but haven't. I told a church friend about it he said you did what you were suppose to by going to him what say you?
I am Catholic. I think the next step is you go with some of you brothers/or sister and then I if he still doesn't repent then you take it to his Priest. What the Priest will do about it will probably depend on the Priest I don't know if they have universal training about this, but it will be interesting to see how that plays out. I haven't seen this actually play out in real life. The concept is similar to the military though where you seek to resolve issues at the lowest possible level in the chain of command.
We have to remember the Catholic church is really a hospital for sinners. But not everyone that attends is taking the prescribed medication. So just because he is Catholic doesn't mean he is going to currently resemble a great Saint yet.
Where is it written that it was possible to "pass the keys" to anyone else or where did Christ say, "You Apostles can give this power to whomever you will." How do we know "the keys" could be passed to anyone besides those specific persons to whom Christ directly bestowed them and breathed upon? (not doubting it, but wondering)
2 Corinthians 2:5-11 shows this pretty robustly with the Apostle Paul’s saying.
@@cooperthatguy1271
This doesn't say anything about keys. It just says the person (probably the one from 1Cor 5 who was committing incest) was causing Paul grief because of his sin against the church and that he forgives the person if the congregation forgives him. It doesn't say the keys were passed, but you're right it shows the local church possesses the right to forgive and even an Apostle respected that local authority. I think Jesus mentions this as well in Matt 18:17,18.
What happens when you don’t confess (at least not as often as you should) and yet you still have faith that you’re forgiven your sins? Can you answer this directly, without reframing it, and with absolute certainty (ie., with Scripture?) And if you can’t, why not?
If you're unrepentant, you are in your sins. But if you are truly repentant and trying to turn your life away from sin, that is an invisible confession so to speak. Is God going to smite you because you didn't outwardly confess your sins but are repentant and trusting in God's grace for salvation? I don't think so. The act of verbal confession isn't what saves us, it's the faith in Christ which saves.
If for whatever reason a Christian doesn't confess their sins to God (yet is repentant), I think that needs to be addressed and sorted out but I wouldn't go as far to say they're still in their sins. If you are repentant then you have confessed you are sinful - whether outwardly with your voice or inwardly with your mind and soul. If you trust in God to save your sinful state, you are indeed saved through Christ. The closest thing I could point to is Psalm 19:12: "Who can discern his errors? Forgive my hidden faults." God, forgive us for the sins we don't even realize we commit. We trust Jesus paid for those sins too.
@@restedassurance So is our salvation on condition of our confession of sins or is it a forensic righteousness that saves us? I’m not in my sins if my sins are paid-never mind the role of confession and absolution (for this point anyway).
@@restedassurance Hello- I think you're mixing grace and the law. Either you're alive to a law that can condemn you, or you aren't. The Spirit of Christ ministers righteousness, not condemnation, to sinners. The law and the angels that God gave the law through are ministers of death to sinners, not righteousness. Christ is the minister and High Priest of a better covenant with better promises.
Galatians 3:19-20
Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
Galatians 3:23-25 "Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian."
1 Cor 15:56-57 "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."
If you've died to the law, how can sin hurt you anymore?
Romans 4:14-15 "For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
@@PizzaDisguise I’m not sure you’ve understood. I am saying that Lutherans have given me the law again. My pastor tells me in no uncertain terms that we make ourselves “ritually unclean” by sin and shame, which eventually leads to a corrosion of our saving faith which itself is the reception of the Word and Sacrament. In other words: if I stop coming to church I am probably going to damn myself.
That means that for Lutherans it’s like being in the garden again. As long as we are presently receiving God’s gifts and not rejecting them to choose sin instead, we are saved. But right or wrong this is a different hope than I had. My hope was that God would save me from my wandering and bring me to a certain rest in his assurances of union with Christ who did all that needed to be done to save me already. … Not, in other words, “oh sure you’re saved-that is, if you do x,y,z to receive the faith that receives your salvation!” Well what happened to me being saved from damnation? The wandering IS the thing we need saving from! Of course I wander away! I’m a sinner! What is God saving me from if by being a sinner and wandering away from church I risk damning myself? You may as well tell me it’s easy, just don’t sin!
It’s basically “you’re saved if you receive salvation by receiving salvation-and you’re damned if you don’t.” But what exactly would we be saved from? We’re not guaranteed salvation from the only thing that’ll damn us! We’re damned by not having faith and according to Lutheranism we have faith by certain works, namely something as simple and easy (but nonetheless a work) as attending the divine service, etc.
What about Lutheran church no longer having Apostolic succession?
What of it?
Everyone believes that the "Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven" are the source of any Church's authority to forgive sin.
The debate is over whether the "Keys" belonged to St. Peter, alone (and his successor bishops/those in communion with him), OR whether all the Apostles collectively shared in the office of the keys (and their successor bishops), OR whether the latter is true, but both bishops _AND_ presbyters are equally successors of the Apostles, OR whether the Church as a whole (clergy and laity) possess the keys but the ordained ministers, either bishop or presbyter, merely exercise its public use on behalf of the collective Church.
How one sees this issue is going to affect how necessary you regard episcopal succession, AND YET has no bearing on a theology of what the "keys" are and what they do.
Lutherans do have apostolic succession. Luther was an ordained priest. The Churches of the Augsburg confession weren't a group of laity that broke away and started ordaining themselves. It's multiple churches across multiple countries with both priests and bishops who were unjustly excommunicated.
The fact that Luther was a priest has no importance.
Lutherans reject sacramental priesthood, so obviously their “priests” are not sacramentally ordained -> no apostolic succession whatsoever.
So and the end of these theological contortions, all one needs to do is to join a LCMS church. But if I can't get to YOU, then I'm in big trouble. Right? 🤔
You are not interpreting the Verses properly.
Even if I'm generous for john 20 yet its the Apostles who have authority to forgive sins. Not Pastor/ bishop.
So is the great commission only for those there?
The office of the keys is a made-up term. This is RC Light. We need Pastors, elders and teachers, they don't have the authority to dispense and administer Gods grace. That would violate 1 Timothy 2:5.
The terms Trinity, Sacraments and others Christians use every day. Because they are not words in Scripture dies that make them untrue? No.
How can men forgive sins if they don't know the heart or the honesty of the confessor, nor if the confessor refuses to forgive others? I don't think it's at all "clear" that power was given to Peter to forgive sins. That's a very specific, and indirect interpretation of the passage. The elephant in the room however is why does the church NEED to forgive sins? If we have our own ability to repent and seek forgiveness individually, of what use is a priest in this regard? It's not too much more of a stretch to then get into the church having authority over salvation.
Historically, this kind of imaginary power was wielded over people and nations to control them.
"Historically, this kind of imaginary power was wielded over people and nations to control them."
And still is.
If Jesus Christ died on the cross FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF MY SINS, why do some Priests and Ministers believe that I must confess my sins to them and THEY decide if my sins are forgiven? If that is the case, then JESUS CHRIST was a failure in His attempt to forgive my sins and he went through all that torture and pain for nothing. I, for one, do not think that Jesus Christ was a failure.
"And Penance, with which is joined sacramental confession, by the words, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." [NRSV]; {John 20:23} and by the words, “unless you repent, you will [all] likewise perish.” {Luke 13:3,5}" - Patr. Dositheus Notarius
Hello! In bodies like RC, EO, Reformed and Lutheran to name some, Confession is seen as having come from the Gospel and Early Church.
"Verily I say unto you, whatsoever ye shall bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven." - Matthew 18:18
"And I will give unto thee the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven." - Matthew 16:19
"Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a Righteous man avails much." - James 5:16
Its affirmation of the forgiveness of sins. I don’t think you have been to a Lutheran service it is not what you are thinking.
No. No need to even watch this. Why is the question even being asked?