One of the major issues we didn't discuss in the video -- because we spent nearly an hour discussing it while filming -- is just how much the Wish spell relies on DM interpretation. The lesson here is "be careful what you wish for" -- it really makes players cautious to use the spell. There are famous examples of the wish spell backfiring on a character due to poor wording from countless campaigns, and it seems to us that many DMs take a little bit of glee in twisting a wish. We'd love to hear stories about when the Wish spell was used in your campaigns, as we'd love to discuss it more in a future video.
I had a player try to wish a villain dead. I could not let that happen, and I made it clear initially that Wish was dangerous to use when you use it outside the listed effects. He said "I wish 'the villain' was dead." I told him the wish went off, and something happened. Needless to say, my necromancer illithid was still alive. When they won the right way, and came back to Waterderp, they discovered a traveling Bard named Max "The Villain" McClain had died of a heart attack.
@@100nodog When I read the first half of your post I thought the punchline was going to be that the villain was secretly undead so the wish had no effect (for some reason I think of necromancers as undead).
I take a lot of glee warping wish. But not because I want to be necessarily mean to the players. A player casting a wish and getting what they want is sometimes the end of the campaign. Sometimes those players do not want to say goodbye to their characters right yet, so....why not use a backfired wish to create a new situation for the players to deal with. Sometimes the best wish you can grant to the players is the one they didn't realize they wanted.
My favorit have got to be once when someone went "I wish I would never see that beholder again!" And it became permanently invicible..Could have been worse..the character could have been blinded forever..
The problems with wish are: 1. Most DMs feel the need to twist the wish so that it does usually more harm than good. 2. 33% chance to never use this spell again. Wasting a ninth level spell slot on endangering the party and probably losing your most versatile spell forever? Nope, not gonna do that!
One of the best uses of healing spirits I’ve seen is when our wizard (me) used sleep to take the BBEG out of combat for a minute, while our druid used healing spirit to get us all up to full health. We ended up killing the mindflayer which, upon death, let out a psychic shriek that took some of our party down to 0 hp. If we hadn’t healed up, those that failed their save would end up outright dead.
In a one-shot where I was the Ranger, we paused after surviving a fight with a Flesh Golem while sneaking into an enemy fortress and I used it to heal up the people who had been hurt, including myself and my falcon. While exploring the same area, we ended up spying on the evil baron and when our Fighter stepped forward to challenge him, he transported us all to a demiplane and turned into a huge monster. It was a difficult fight and we nearly lost, we certainly would have if we had gone in without healing up.
My problem with healing spirit is that if it was meant to be used like that, it shouldn't completely outclass prayer of healing in literally every way.
One of my players multi classed into a life domain cleric to add a flat +4 healing on each tick, making the spell even with the lowest rolls (if you somehow nat1'ed every roll) a minimum heal of 50 hitpoints for a 2nd level slot (which for a small group of players of 3-4 is pretty busted). With average rolls (using 3's not 4's), that would be 70 hp restored to potentially the whole group, which even with some more healthier PC's still would probably give them at least 50% of their hp back, if not closer to 75-100% depending on class and CON score
The best part of healing word is it's range. Your life domain Cleric can stay safe and still give aid to an ally without risking opportunity attacks to get there The war domain Cleric can aid the downed fighter while still bashing the skull in on the goblin in front of him. The druid can heal an ally and then shift into a beast form immediately afterwards. It is an action economy thing and helping keep good posistioning.
Agreed 100%. Also, I find it funny how they argued for needing "more hit points" when an equivalent level Cure Wounds will give +2hp/level on average. Even if you were casting it at 4th level, if your fighter can take multiple additional attacks from a dragon with 8 extra hp, I want to know what type of dragons you're fighting.
I'll amend this by noting that if you're using your bonus action for spiritual weapon most of the time, cure wounds gains a different advantage. Depends a lot on playstyle.
To make the video more visually appealing, some kind of simple stat block graphic for the spells you talk about would be immensely helpful to viewers understanding what you're talking about.
Hmm, I agree it’d be nice, but they’re saying the stats out loud. It’s not like they skip describing the spell and just talk about how overrated it is.
I would just like to say that my favorite spell, Wall of Force, is a top tier spell and is in no way overrated. It is delightfully broken and I like it that way.
@@gamingstudios-cf2qf How often do you run into things that can break a wall of force? It's not unbeatable by any means, but the vast majority of monsters can't do shit to it.
I wish to have total immunity against suffering the negative sideeffects of casting the wishspell and that it is impossible for me to not be able to cast wishspell ever again.
@@Joe_Narbaiz well i hope you dont cross paths with him you would learn what the difference between what one wishes and what someone wants is the hard way
I actually asked my DM this and he said I could do it but the way I had went about it was keep a wish scroll with me and if I ever lost the ability I would have a party member use it for me
@@marekcowan8174 If you want your DM to babysit you through the campaign, Fine, If not, that is what a monster that is trying really hard to kill you would do. And "denying a viable healing option" is too vague to talk about.
I've played the Archer Bard build before and it was pretty fun. One subtle strength of Swift Quiver is that unlike most features that give you a Bonus Action attack, such as Crossbow Expert, Swift Quiver does not require you to take the Attack action beforehand. That lets you cast a powerful Bard spell with your Action and then fire off two arrows with your bonus action. It feels like a beefier version of a Cleric's Spiritual Weapon in that way. Requiring Concentration is a big limiting factor though, and it may not measure up to other concentration spells like Animate Objects that you mentioned.
5:35 Not to mention that Dragons are highly intelligent, and many can use magic themselves. I'd wager that few dragons are foolish enough to leave a heal-able target lying there instead of ripping it apart and saving itself future trouble.
But if another player just crit the dragon and did a chunk of damage, I think it reasonable that he might change target either out of anger or just smartly prioritising the targets.
@@nathanthom8176 Maybe so, maybe not. Maybe the dragon can tank a few crits. Maybe the one that died would cause more trouble. Maybe it isn't a red dragon, and thus doesn't have anger issues. But a crit is rare. More often than not, the dragon's most likely decision is to rip it's victim apart, instead of half-assing it like a pride-less humanoid.
@@lawaern3474 fair enough, I am not suggesting that it should always have the same result. Personally if I was DMing and we weren't very far through the campaign, I would probably change the target, especially if you see a potential TPK on its way. Personally this isn't too much of a problem for me as a player as my group tends to play smart and if a player goes down we normally have someone who can neutralise the enemies advantage on an unconscious player (darkness, fog cloud) and if I am not the downed player I will use Thunder step to get the player way from the enemy. Seriously as I am the primary support player in most of our campaigns, I find that Thunder step is the one spell I will always take.
@@lawaern3474 exactly although I find Thunder step the best battle version as it also does damage and is available at lvl3, so even if I don't want to be a full caster class I can still get it with a dip of 3 levels of warlock.
My group used Healing Spirit after a big encounter they walked into after a short rest in a hostile dungeon. The wizard dropped it to bring the sorc back up, then moved it so that she walked through it next turn. The fight was cleaned up the next round, they did the Healing Spirit Conga for the next 48 seconds, and they were all topped up. As a new DM trying to punish the players for Tiny Hut camping in hostile dungeons, I thought it was absolutely brilliant. In no way broken.
As a sorcerer, I can only exchange spells known upon a level-up. This means that if I know the Wish spell at level 20, I'm stuck with it until I wish something else and I can't cast wish at all, effectively removing 1 from my limited number of spells known, permanently. Knowing this, it imposes a time limit to use the non-8th level wish ability until I can't; which will allow me to be a lot more brazen in wishing for something like that.
I find Haste, a level three spell, to be nearly effective as Swift Quiver but at 6th level and it also has defensive and evasive options. Also, Haste should be on the dang Bard Spell List!!! It's a classic buff, it really shouldn't have to burn a magical secret.
My problem with wish is: the warning that DM's have free reign to "monkey's paw" your wish if you go too crazy with it is already good enough to get players to pump the breaks a little. The prospect of taking wish out of a players spell list forever because they tried to be creative and it comes down to a die roll is too much and a bit ridiculous. Players finding creative solutions to problems, and going through the effort to meticulously explain the wish's paramaters, is a fantastic way to build story and have a good time.
Also, fireball should be catching everything on fire, changing a combat into a skill challenge to escape a burning area as well as burning useful objects in the area (scrolls, spell books, important letters, paper money, etc.).
Fireball in Divinity Original Sin does exactly that. Always felt much more appropriate for elemental spells to change the battlefield for a long amount of time.
Lightning Bolt does catch everything on fire, but it operates only in a straight line out from the caster compared to Fireball's 20 foot radius at a distance. Two spells of the same level and damage _should_ have trade-offs like that.
I have no clue where they're coming from. "You can just short rest to do the same thing as healing spirit"? You get only half your hit dice on a *long* rest, and healing spirit is doing your hit dice 4 times per long rest. If you only cast it four times. Healing spirit is in no way overrated. Its *blatantly* overtuned. There's no reason to have a spell that is *that* much more efficient than cleric party heal spells. That section of the video felt like a half-baked hot take. DD's may be correct a lot of the time, but they can certainly be wrong, too.
@@bodbyssHealing spells in all rpg and competitive games has to be more effecient then dmg and given sustian options or else its redundant. This means numbers to numbers one can always say its overtunned and theres always people that do. However thing about heal spells is they dont kill meaning they cant be a replacement for the necessary dmg in games, so I seldom call healing op.
I think people overrate it too, along with most combat spells people say are broken. First of all, starting a combat at full health might be helpful, but it doesn't solve the encounter. In my experience, combat go south not because the party didn't start at full health, but because someone failed a key save or a string of bad rolls happened. Lastly, players are at low health, they just won't continue. Healing spirit just allows for the players to push for one more encounter before calling it a day, that's it.
@@rafaelbordoni516 Exactly. Healing spirit is a second level spell that does a lot of healing, but isn't going to solve everything. It doesn't restore some abilities like a short rest does, it doesn't trivialize encounters that are dangerous enough to kill players anyways, and it doesn't perform nearly as well in actual combat. It's also a very exclusive spell that not every party has access too.
@@bodbyss It's a great, big out of combat heal. But comparing it to prayer of healing? Why? No one used it, because it's a horrible spell. Healing spirit is used, because it's actually good. A bit strong in its role? Yes. Gamebreaking? Of course not, combats are designed assuming you start at full hp.
In the old days you went through 10 levels as a fighter and ten levels as a thief and then you got to be a Bard and you picked up the Druid spells and instruments.
Healing word is awesome for keeping people from actually dying, but any other uses are kinda meh. Healing spirit , I do think is very limited in its overall use ability Fireball is Iconic and I am biased, But I really like it Swift quiver is too high level and limited to be worth it Wish.... well if cast properly, can be gamebreaking, but an awesome spell overall, and can overcome some otherwise character ending conditions
This is the best D&D channel ever. It helped me figure out how to play a few years back, and I don't even have a consistent D&D game group anymore, but I still come back to these videos and could still listen to you two talk about it forever. Many days of work have gone by a lot faster because I had a tier list of Paladin classes in the background to keep me entertained, haha. Thanks for all the hours of great videos over the years!
My dudes! Looking forward to another one of these. Also. Your timing always makes me crave some DnD play when I'm in the middle of a bi-week break between each session. *I'm a fiend*
War is peace; Freedom is slavery; Ignorance is strength. And the Big Brother is always watching you. Cool video and nice t-shirt... ;) Anyway, I never understood why some DMs and players are so picky about what this or that character combo can do this or that thing. Are people doing it to break the game intentionally? Well, youbas the DM can break that character im game (my favorite is using the exact same combo against disruptive players). They are doing to make the game more fun for everyone? Hell yeah! I would love to see it happening. It seems people still fail to understand that while the job of a DM is to present challenges, this isn't the same of being an enemy of the party.
Fireball is a nice spell for aoe damage but as you guys mentioned, fire is one of if not THE most resisted type of damage. Also people tend to forget to account for potential collateral damage. I remember one situation particularly where my teams spellcaster used fireball in combat then after combat when we were looting the area we found evidence of a scroll that was burned to ashes and unreadable. After the session our DM revealed the scroll had some really useful info for finding the location of some very important artifacts that we were questing for. Big oof.
Well I consider it to still be a good choice for the Curse of Strahd campaign. Would not take it into the Avernus campaign though, at least not without the Elemental Adept feat. :D
Thanks Chris! We really hemmed and hawed over whether or not we were going to discuss Wish in this list. It is undeniably amazing, but we've witnessed the "wish effect" across multiple campaigns where players didn't use their 9th level spell slots because they felt like any use of the slot that wasn't casting Wish was "wasting it".
1. Indeed Healing Word has its drawbacks, but the spell indeed significantly alters the playstyle depending on whether or not it's available. Being able to heal as a bonus action and at range is very powerful even at higher levels, although sometimes you should indeed upcast the spell for a frontliner - a Life Cleric (16 Wis) will heal ~12 HP with a second level slot and ~15 HP with a third level slot and ~19 HP with a fourth level slot. That may be a poor exchange on the long-term but may sometimes be necessary. 2. I think you're missing out on the fact that Hit Dice only recover by half on a long rest and in total only provide the character's HP pool at most. And 2-3 encounter days is the reason why nova-intense classes like Paladins and Sorcerers pull ahead so easily. What Healing Spirit also allows is for players to do a lot more facetanking against environmental hazards and traps as HP is no longer a concern for anyone. 3. The problem here is mainly that other damage-dealing spells tend to be very anemic and it's not exactly unreasonable to want to play a spellcaster for dealing damage. Also, Warlocks can easily deal strong turn-after-turn damage with their Eldritch Blast with options to pump out even more damage both through multiclasses and innate features. Plus "consistent" is overrated as you already admitted to only run a few encounters per day, which generally makes higher peak damage much more valuable. Finally, Fireball is a super bland AoE damage effect and there's way too little options for non-fire based blasters. 4. Valor Bards don't really invest anything substantial when they take Swift Quiver as a magical secret. And you need to consider that the spell allows bards to compete with Fighters in being Fighters well enough to be used for that position. Fighters on the other hand fail entirely to compete with bards in being bards, not having most of their options available. So it's really just being a marginally weaker DPR character in exchange for a humongous toolbox neither the Fighter nor Ranger compete with. 5. Okay that one I fully agree with - the spell has no reason to exist in the first place.
The usefulness of spells (and othe game mechanics) depends entirely on the DM. The players wreck your encounters with fireballs? Throw monsters with high dex and avoidance at them. The party wants a long rest after every battle? Have things happen in the game world while they rest (enemies prepare ambushes or summon get reinforcements). The Fighter/Barb/Ranger/Monk Kills bosses to fast? Swarm them with minions and use enemies with high AC. Or have en enemy mage use things like Blur or Enemies Abound. The party has too much healing? Make sure they need it or hit them with other effects like stat drain or exhaustion. The only reason I would ban a spell is if its so strong that it takes away player choice. If a player would feel punished for not picking it because it doesnt match their character concept. And even then I'd rather modify things than outright ban them. In my games for example healing spirit is a level 5 spell to make the cost proportional with the amount of healing it does. I also "nerfed" spells like fireball by making them cause a lot of collateral damage and might backfire when used in tight spaces.
That's a lovely approach to balance, but I can't help but point out that Fireball innately causes huge collateral damage and it's intended to. Most players and DMs just tend to overlook that it damages EVERYTHING in the area and catches anything not worn or carried on fire. People think of it as a short burst of fire that immediately goes out rather than the fiery explosion that it's supposed to be.
Wish is really interesting to me because a wizard can use it to, say, create a scroll of a brand new spell that the wizard made and can inscribe into their spell book. Creating your own spell is one of the defining achievements of a high-level wizard, and those who have prove that they're in a league above all other wizards, at least in my eyes.
Healing Spirit got nerfed with a more recent errata (April 2020 - Yes, I realize this video came out before then). It now has a limit on how many times it can heal.
When talking about control spells, my favorite combo is slow with synaptic static. Have a bane already on or bard throw cutting words, and this becomes some serious bad news for a single powerful enemy or a number of minions.
I find the idea that a creature would continue to attack a downed player when there are other hostiles still standing kinda off, most animals have a basic sense of threat priority
Depends on the creature in my opinion. I think both situations have obvious advantages or disadvantages. An intelligent dragon can probably easily deduce there is a cleric or some means of healing and that if they leave someone downed they're likely to come back up. It only makes sense to try to kill them outright. Meanwhile less intelligent creatures may not think of that and move on to the nearest immediate threat. Or perhaps its a very savage unintelligent creature that just wants to kill everything or kill and get out, etc. There's plenty of reasons why a creature would or wouldn't attempt to kill a downed creature, but I think the point they're trying to make is that most people use healing to get a PC conscious and then the enemy usually hits them once and ignores them ad infinitum. Most DMs don't really realize that a creature with 3 multiattacks can almost always guaranteed slay a character if they knock it unconscious on the first hit.
You are correct that a monster would probably start on a new foe after downing a foe last round but it is far more realistic for it to 'complete its multi-attack' on the same target once it has started than to break off its attack mid way. Having something that wants to kill you suddenly stop mid attack because you fell over (to save the PC) is totally unrealistic esp. if you are the only viable target in range.
@@elgatochurro Simple, use your enemies INT stat to determine if they can know downed creatures can be healed. An owlbear or dire wolf would move to a new target, but humanoids or dragons are smart enough to know the necessity of going for the kill.
So about that disscussion of Healing Spirit at 7:30 "You call forth a nature spirit to soothe the wounded. The intangible spirit appears in a space that is a 5-foot cube you can see within range. The spirit looks like a transparent beast or fey (your choice). Until the spell ends, whenever you or a creature you can see moves into the spirits space for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, you can cause the spirit to restore 1d6 hit points to that creature (no action required). The spirit can’t heal constructs or undead. As a bonus action on your turn, you can move the Spirit up to 30 feet to a space you can see. ""The spirit can heal a number of times equal to 1 + your spellcasting ability modifier (minimum of twice)."" After healing that number of times, the spirit disappears." It can only heal a number of times = to 1 + spellcasting modifier. Assuming you maxed the stat and didn't use magic items to boost it beyond a +5, that's a grand total of 6d6 of healing total per 2nd lv spell slot. 21hp is the expected value for a capped stat. In comparison a cure wounds at 2nd lv is 2d8 + spellcasting modifier. Assuming the same max stat caster that's on average 14hp. so only 7 points of hp more in total, and it can be shut down by a failed concentration save. I think it's pretty much perfectly balanced if you consider the full wording of the spell.
No, you did actually get it wrong I think. 2nd slot 21hp expected total, 3rd 42hp expected total, 4th 63 etc. Do keep in mind total heals are capped at 1 + spellcasting modifier for a typical max of 6 doses of healing per cast.
@@DungeonDudes oh wow, ok. That Erata curbed the overhealing a bit, but it grows rapidly with higher lv slots. I personally like the spell. There's enough risk of dropping it, and risk of not being able to move it close enough to a character that needs it in time, that it feels decently balanced.
True, I think something about risking it for the biscuit keeps people from being practical, it gives you a false sense of hope that you can outsmart your DM by being super specific and still getting unsavory results in the end. And that's low-key brilliant, Richard. I might have to sneak in a ring and see how x it takes them to figure it out
A wish ring was absolutely necessary in my particular (Pathfinder) game as the party found themselves in a long campaign arc on Avernus with only a paladin, an alchemist and a bard for magic use - without wishes, they would have no way to revive fallen companions in a 12th-15th level segment with no friendly towns save a Fey Merchant. That said, with powerful players without high level casting at their disposal anyway, no one has even thought about replicating wizard spells and the wishes have become effectively very expensive resurrection scrolls that the party can actually use.
@@ReineCerise Sounds like the actual problem is an adversarial relationship between the players and the DM. Or rather, players who perceive the relationship that way (any DM who _actually_ wants the PCs dead can achieve this at any time). TBH, I think a large percentage of the people who think Wish can just do _anything_ are people who've never played D&D who are getting their idea of how it works from stories made up by other people who've _also_ never played.
my DM gave us 4 wishes at lvl 5. We hoarded those fuckers until he forced them out of us by sending an ancent dragon at us when we in no way were equipped to deal with it.
Healing Word are not overrated at all. It's a bonus action and there are so many times I have found items that gives you and the allies buffs while healing. You can get status like Heroism, Bless or Protection from Good/Evil from just using a 1-level bonus spell. And even if you don't have a item it still can save the day as it is incredible useful in combat.
Okay so my problems with healing spirit(I might be a bit ranting) : First of all compare it to any other healing spell. Starting with Prayer of Healing, which takes 10 minute to cast and heals up to 6 creatures in range for 3d8 + wis mod. So 10d6 for any number after 1 minute vs 3d8 + 4/5 for 6 people max. Healing word or cure wounds heal 2d4/8 + wis mod. Next point: Short rest use hit dice which you only get half of back after a long rest. Meaning after 2-3 days of exploring/fighting you usually can't heal really up with this. And spell slots get regained after a long rest. And this even works in combat. And while a Druid is wildshaped. Potions exist and other stuff but don't forget it doesn't cost anything to cast, automatically stabilizes people in it after 1 round and it heals 10d6 at second level for unlimited people. A second level spell slot is worth around 100 gp = 2 healing potion meaning: 4d4 + 8 vs 10d6. 2 Actions vs 1 bonus action One-time use vs everyday use It's just dumb. Also a short rest can't be taken when doing literally anything not eating, drinking or sleeping. So you have to wait 1 hour for something that takes a minute. Sorry, but almost all your points were incomplete on this one. None of the other spells are actually problematic for me. They are better than most same level spells, but nothing to bad. But healing spirit destroys any gritty situation after level 4. I fixed it by only allowing 1 heal per round. Meaning maximum is 10d6. Which makes it completely balanced compared to spells like prayer of healing which is intended to be taken instead of a short rest. I love playing druids but it actually felt wrong to use it because it's just making every other source of healing useless. And it's range. And not even an action. And can be used while wild shaped. And it's movable. It's not even static.
I can't even think of a reason for clerics to prepare Cure Wounds anymore. At level 1 there's healing word for emergency healing at the opportunity cost of 4 potential HP (which, using the same argument for healing word being balanced, is far too little to matter in the times healing word is used). Thanks to healing spirit, the only time you'd want to cast cure wounds at second level is when you want to gamble that 2d8+mod is enough to keep your target alive for a whole round of combat. When you have a third level spell slot (and are level 5) cure wounds is outscaled by enemy damage and it's now emergency healing again. Which mean healing word is always a better option again. Outside of combat, there's no reason to ever consider upcasting cure wounds since healing spirit exists.
I don't think it's that big a deal, but if someone dedicated their character to healing as a cleric (which I don't recommend) and was massively outperformed in their specialty during downtime, I can understand their frustration. Especially if it's a damage dealer character who performs it. But there's not a lot of functional difference between 10 min and 1 hr in game, so I'm not sure why you would have 10 minutes, but not take a short rest.
On top of all this was a point emphasized in a game I have previously played in. The druid put it directly behind the tank in a fight. What each player would do, is use just 5-10 ft of the movement EACH TURN to gain 1d6. It simply states they have to enter it. Meaning that one person can walk through EACH TURN. Effectively making use of every point James brought up, and the fact that every player can trade only 10 feet of movement for 1d6 hitpoints for a full minute. In effect, we all gained 6d6 hitpoints for one spell, accessed at druid level 4, in the middle of combat.
@@liger04 there are still situations: Supreme healing gives always max value making cure wounds quite nice for getting someone during a fight bavk on their feet. And there is a subclass im Xanarthar'sGuide (grave Domain), which grants the max value, if the target was at 0 hp. Making cure wounds almost doube as effective. And it can especially on low level play be better to cast cure wounds in a fight getting someone up to half their health or just getting them back to full out of combat.
@@MrKostrom it depends on whether your gm actively usees and looks at time or just says it goes by. In my campaigns time was important. Especially during exploration or dungeoning. More time doing nothing means allowing the enemy to prepare more. Giving some enemies a chance of retreat or so. While you take a short rest you can't take watch or stand guard or search for some thing. Meaning that during a dungeon crawl you don't have an hour to sit and do nothing. Because at every second you could get jumped by enemies(making you surprised and your first round essentially useless) While during the casting of prayer of healing another player can stand watch, people can search for something or loot the defeated foes or investigate something they saw. A wizard can identify something they found. Most times when you fought it was loud and you aren't in a safe place, else why would you have fought. So during the casting you could also barricade the entrances to prepare a short rest. And as I said if you have a dungeon crawl or so for more than just 2 days, you don't have the hit dice for healing. Especially casters get really fast really low on hp even with short rests. Also during a long rest you can't take a short rest, making healing after a raid om your group or not available outside from magic. It depends on your game, but if the gm is in any way tactical and/or realistic when it comes to time and what you can do, which all games I was in were and which I as a GM always am and GMs like Matthew Colville are as well, healing isn't accessible from short rest most of the time. Think about the following, if you had the choice between doing nothing for 1 hour or doing something in 10 minutes, which would you choose? Especially since the 1 hour is free surprise for enemies, allowing enemies to prep traps and ambushes or retreats. It costs time you might need to find a safe place to spend the night. But if you have a less tactical game or a more funny/less realistic one, which is totally valid for everyone who wants that, it surely isn't as bad in comparison. The thing is, in those games balance isn't an issue. It doesn't really matter if there are no real consequences that would usually make something impossible. These games can be unbalanced in quite a few ways and everything's fine. In more tactical games a bir unbalance is noticed really fast.
Hey! It has been awhile since I had the DnD bug but I was the one months ago asking you guys to include time stamps to help jump around your discussion. Not only am I happy to see you include that but your conversations on the whole seem much tighter and more focused and I love it! Have a subscribe!
Healing Spirit seems like an ideal complement for helping an overwhelmed fortress wall to heal up to fight off the next wave of attackers. Or any other situation where you have more than a squad and less than a century to heal up in a bloody great big hurry and you can move a lot of bodies in unison very quickly through a narrow area.
How often would a wild animal (dragons included) keep attacking an enemy that is on the ground and looks dead, when they could be focusing on people that are attacking them? By that logic, monsters should just keep attacking corpses every round.
Again, we are talking about the specific circumstance where a creature with more than one attack drops a target on their first attack. A lot of DMs then have the creature stop their attacks and move on to another target for the remaining attacks. We actually feel this is something only a tactically intelligent creature would do. We are not talking about attacking a target that was already downed at the start of the monsters turn. In that case most of the time yes, it’s more likely the creature move to a fresh foe (unless it is an ambush predator in which case it’s probably going to try to flee with the body)
Dungeon Dudes What’s the difference? It makes even less sense in the case of an intelligent creature like a dragon, because that’s basically just playing them like a bloodlusted wild animal instead of a smart creature.
Dungeon Dudes Plus the point of multiattacks is to spread the damage around to different characters. If it was meant to all attack the same guy, wouldn’t it just be one really damaging attack?
@@edcellwarrior Well, the difference is that at the start of the round, a creature might fully intend to launch all of its attacks against the target in front of it, because they don't know exactly how many attacks it will take to bring their target down. When the target drops on the first attack, the best thing the creature can do might actually be to follow through and kill their target outright, instead of moving on to make more attacks against another target. And straight up, given the proliferation of healing abilities, a highly intelligent combatant -- such as a dragon -- might have a good sense that finishing off a target outright is going to be the best move. Or, the creature might be one of bloodlust, instinct, intimidation, or even might not have the situational awareness to realize their target is dropped. When a flash of three attacks goes out in a six seconds, well, it's possible to see that a combatant might not realize (or care) that the first attack killed their target, since they are so focused on following through. We might imagine this as a "dead before they hit the ground" kind of fatality.
@@DungeonDudes But in general D&D terms, once a creature reaches 0, they're dead. PCs are the only real exception to this, so it doesn't make sense that any creature, no matter how intelligent, would realize they need to keep attacking to kill. Plus, again, unless the creature is bloodlusted and physically can't stop attacking (which a lot of creatures with multiattacks are supposed to be smarter than), they'd stop once the target is on the ground and move to the next person. In a shootout, you don't shoot one person and then unload the rest of your magazine into their dead body, you move on to the next target. "And straight up, given the proliferation of healing abilities, a highly intelligent combatant -- such as a dragon -- might have a good sense that finishing off a target outright is going to be the best move." In this same world, resurrection spells exist as early as level 5 (about when you'd actually fight a dragon), so how would focusing all your attacks on one person who could be resurrected be the best option? And finally, I feel like it's pretty obvious that multiattacks are supposed to be used to attack multiple targets rather than hoping to cheese a kill on one player. If the idea was just "kill a player without anyone having time to react", why not just have the dragon's breath incinerate their body to ashes?
As a cleric in 4E, at first level, Healing Word recovers 1D6 + WIS MOD + player spends a healing surge to recover 1/4 their MaxHP. Base stats aren't limited to max 20. This can be cast twice an encounter and a short rest to recover is 5 minutes. Of course, class powers, feats and magic items can boost this. I really miss D&D.
I think a build can work if you die midway through a campaign and need to make a new character at the same power level as the rest of the party without all the in-between levels.
Honestly, taking this video, and your wizard guide video, it gave me a killer idea for a character. A fire genasi wizard whose goal is to learn wish so he could use it to become a full blooded genie. Basically the plot of inuyasha now that I think about it.
“Fireball should not be used to soften up the baddies...” Where were you guys when our lvl 16 party met a lich back in a 3.5 game? We had a time cleric using time stop at the beginning of the fight(winning initiative), he did some preparations, but had no idea what was coming. After him the lich also cast time stop, thought for a moment, then decided to use his sorcerous power to spam our faces with 6 fireballs... We were not prepared.. :( And thus ended a great campaign :)
I’m guilty of being a DM who is terrified of the wish spell.... I’ve never actually seen it used as I’ve never seen anyone get that high of a level, so I actually have no clue how it actually works in play.
@@GoblinUrNuts It isn't always a Monkey's Paw in that situation. "The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect. Alternatively, you can create one of the following effects of your choice: You create one object of up to 25,000 gp in value that isn't a magic item. The object can be no more than 300 feet in any dimension, and it appears in an unoccupied space you can see on the ground. You allow up to twenty creatures that you can see to regain all hit points, and you end all effects on them described in the greater restoration spell. You grant up to ten creatures that you can see resistance to a damage type you choose. You grant up to ten creatures you can see immunity to a single spell or other magical effect for 8 hours. For instance, you could make yourself and all your companions immune to a lich's life drain attack. You undo a single recent event by forcing a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish spell could undo an opponent's successful save, a foe's critical hit, or a friend's failed save. You can force the reroll to be made with advantage or disadvantage, and you can choose whether to use the reroll or the original roll. You might be able to achieve something beyond the scope of the above examples. State your wish to the DM as precisely as possible. The DM has great latitude in ruling what occurs in such an instance; the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong. This spell might simply fail, the effect you desire might only be partly achieved, or you might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a result of how you worded the wish. For example, wishing that a villain were dead might propel you forward in time to a period when that villain is no longer alive, effectively removing you from the game. Similarly, wishing for a legendary magic item or artifact might instantly transport you to the presence of the item's current owner." So first of all there are a few other options that don't allow the DM to just screw with you. It's only if you go beyond those examples that the DM can make significant changes to the result you wanted. Even if you go beyond, it doesn't have to mess with you, it's only more likely to.
@@greenelephant...ofdoom5527 Yup. Just read the damn spell description, OP. It explains exactly how the thing works: Duplicates a spell effect of 8th level or lower. Creates one of a _clearly defined_ list of other effects. Creates another effect that you must negotiate with the DM over. IMHO, this idea that Wish breaks campaigns is largely the result of people getting their ideas on how it works from those stupid Reddit/Chan/etc. "D&D stories", most of which are clearly just made up, many by people who have obviously never rolled a d20 in their lives.
Honestly, I would rewrite it entirely to avoid needing to Monkey Paw the spell. Just have it summon a Genie who can create any non-living object the caster asks for, even if they ask for a million gold pieces or a +10 sun sword. No "rewriting reality", killing people, or anything like that, it's a summoning spell, which then creates an object. The Genie will create one object, regardless of cost, or magical power, excluding artifacts like the Eye of Vecna. This makes the spell worth casting, but knocks out some of the bigger problems with the spell. A cool down would also be needed to prevent abuse. Edit: I should probably say that as "inanimate non-living object" to prevent the creation of undead with the spell.
In regards to the Bard with Swift Quiver, back in 3.5 days, I made a Battle Sorcerer who was waiting to get Thunder Lance...but she ended up dying at level 3...Don't wait to make your character great.
I completely agree with the point regarding fireball, but I think that it also shows one of the flaws of 5e and it’s spell system. There aren’t a whole lot of single target damage spells in 5e, and you only really have a handful of low level spells (guiding bolt, witch bolt, chromatic orb), but most of those get quickly overtaken by martial characters, and some of the others (finger of death, disintegrate, etc) come online much later, and still get eclipsed by many martial builds. As much as I love martial characters, my players and I love the concept of a blasty caster who Can alternate between AOE and a bit of single target damage, but this is a concept that can be somewhat hard to achieve, though we’ve homebrewed a few rules, like the concentrated spell metamagic option for sorcerers (no AOE, but double damage to a single target), or a revised Evocation Wizard and our various changes to the Warlock. Another issue that I have with fireball and it being overrated is that it simply does not scale well, in my opinion. It has a wonderful area of effect, but at higher levels, it’s practically inconsequential against certain foes unless you’re fighting certain really weak enemies like goblins or skeletons (talking about late 3rd and 4th tiers of play here). Most spells don’t scale that well when upcast, and over time, martials just overshadow casters for damage. Don’t get me wrong, I definitely think that martials should have a few options for some control and such (grappling hooks, bolos, being able to attack things in the environment to achieve certain effects), but I definitely think that there should be some more options. We’ve homeruled a few things here and there, but I digress. Rant over.
The best blasty caster (for 5e at least) is to just go two levels into Warlock for agonizing blast, and then go ful sorcerer. As long as it makes sense in your setting it works wonders. Martial classes still tend to outdamage you (and even then just a little bit) but the utility you have with your other spells easily makes up for it.
There are two reasons why I don't really mind the fact that blasty mages are underpowered. The first is that simply put, mages are both more versatile than martial classes and better at everything else. Sure, the thief may have a +13 to his Stealth, but the druid casts Pass Without Trace and suddenly the whole party does. The barbarian and the fighter are out-tanked early game by the moon druid and late game by the Polymorph recipient and various conjured creatures. An Open-Hand Monk, Battle Master Fighter, and Ancestral Guardian Barbarian have less combined potential for battlefield control than the character who takes any combination of Sleet Storm, Plant Growth, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, and Wall of Force. And the martial classes have absolutely nothing even remotely comparable to the mage's ability to take care of basic utility crud, or neutering enemy spellcasters. The fact that spellcasters are significantly worse than martial classes at the one thing that martial classes do well is not a problem for me. And the last point is the second one: enemy blaster mages exist, and unfortunately raw DPS is far more effective against PC's than against badguys. The better my Fireball gets, the easier it is for the enemy archmage to single-handedly cause a TPK.
There are a number of single or limited multi-target spells to use in the intervening levels or ways to improve what exists. Acid arrow deals damage even on a miss and more their turn with a hit. Both being improved by upscaling. Scorching ray is limited multi that can target that can hit the same target multiple times. Each upcast makes another ray creating a pretty strong attack. If i looked i could probably find others. Those two are off the top of my head... Most martials are either burst or concentrated hits so they only look good in quick fights or you don't compare multiple hits others do. That said, its easier for casters to build different or switch gears like you mentioned.
Well, the thing with Polymorph is that the recipient tends to lose important class abilities, and becoming a beast quickly becomes underpowered, especially against enemies with resistance/immunity to non magical damage. We have a lot of boss fights, so things like Summons and polymorph are not as great for damage/tanking as they are for utility/minion control. As for utility, martial classes tend to have more skills, and skills Can replace certain spells for so many things (why cast knock/heat metal/telekinesis/etc on the door when it can just be lockpicked or broken down?). While they have magical utility, and I definitely think that martials should have more and better control options, I think that there should be a few more options. But I digress, I posted this here to rant more so than to argue. If you want to view things differently, go ahead. This is just my opinion based upon my experiences as a player and a DM.
@@josemontes3438 The whole point of D&D is the have a party of multiple characters each good at different things so that they have to work together. That's why different classes are good at different combinations of DPS, control, healing, utility, and social. If everyone can do everything there is no need to work together and the party system falls apart.
The biggest key point in healing word that was kind of left out...it somewhat solves the whole issue of Heal Bot-s. A player or very often NPC that the DM adds to the party and all they do in their turn is heal cause it takes their action and if they don't, people die.
My favourite alternate uses of wish are the ones that fully focus on roleplay. My Profane Soul/Bloodhunter Tiefling used it to contact his devil daddy at level 5 (exactly how he got the spell then is another story) but this led to my favourite RP moment of the campaign, in which I was sent to Hell to have a heart to heart with Asmodeus about the nature of evil
Fun story about the relative utility of fireball. We have a character in our party who is... fond of fire. She has wreath in flames, fireball, and burning hands. These characters are still low level. We just did an encounter that showed relative utility of these. It was in a (mostly) abandoned township populated by undead. The most continuously useful thing was the wreath in flames - because whenever a zombie would make a save from damage, she'd just stand next to it like an undead bug zapper. Zombie raises, hits the wreath, bzzzt, back down. Save/raise/repeat until it failed a save. Burning hands was more useful than fireball because we were working in small spaces and burning hands can be directed more efficiently and not endanger the party. I think in the entire series of encounters, she used fireball once - in the middle of a collection of 20 undead. Burning hands and wreathed in flame were far more useful, and I think that demonstrates exactly your point - situational instances where fireball is actually going to break the encounter aren't necessarily common. Also, the zombie-zapper made us all laugh way too hard. Almost as much as when (in a different campaign- different characters) my bard did Otto's Irresistable Dance on a hill giant who kept failing his saves and danced himself basically to death - and if the mental image of a hill giant trying to floss doesn't make you laugh, I can't help you.
Having a DM and a player in the same conversation about healing spells is funny. For example, during the healing word conversation, I half expected Kelly to have a personal anecdote of a fight going badly because of bad use of healing word
I'd say I use Fireball in good ways, we we in a village under attack by a warband of Berserkers, 30 of them all clumped in a circle on their way to raid and pillage. As we were riding up to meet the enemy in battle I cast a Fireball into the center of the group, only nine succeeded the saving throw, the rest took 33 damage off the bat. I rolled highest initiative, threw another Fireball into the crowd, of the 21 who took the full 33 before, only two survived. Then a Cone of Cold from the next in line practically wiped the survivors. Their turn between the Fireball and Cone was spent chumping our Dwarf NPC allies and killing them. Just for added insult, the Druid ran them over with a Flaming Sphere. The Blood Hunter looked at the three of us really sad because he didn't get to do anything.
@Lance Clemings Berserkers? No. Their only thing besides their Greataxe is Reckless Attack. They also only have +1 to dex saves. When your DC is 16, you're frying a lot of boys.
half of all my characters have died in 5E. each time either i was the healer or our healer missed the session. the last time my lvl 3 cleric got downed by a black pudding and the second one that was created by the fighter's thrown hand axe crit'ed me and killed me outright. RIP.
You guys must not play with a lot of paladins in the group. Healing word is strong. One of the mechanics I dislike are the instant getting up without penalty to do a full round of attacks. I do agree with you that healing spirit is overrated. I don't find it overrated at all. - Innkeeper Vase Odin
Let's put it to level 6 same as heal which does 70 healing rolling Healing 1 target for only 5 rounds at lv.6 with healing spirit rolling average, with no modifier can heal 105 It's terrifyingly effective if planned right
@TwistedTentacleInn seeing that alot of folks have the same complaint as you, my personal solution is using the DMG Combat Option, Lingering Injuries table on page 272. Whenever a PC hits 0 they roll for something that could very well be detrimental, especially in combat, such as losing a hand or an eye or gaining a serious internal injury all until the next Regeneration spell. This always encourages players to be very careful on the possibility of them reaching 0 in combat, especially upon a reoccurring 0.
This is, without a doubt, the best D&D channel on TH-cam. Every opinion you guys have is well-reasoned and totally valid. I'm a huge fan, please keep the quality content coming!
Great video! I am a wizard! (fave class) and I love fireball but you're right on. Also, when you save it for those moments that tend to see it used more efficiently, it also makes the use of it more dramatic. That's a part of what you're after. It is very good for clearing out minions and finishing off an enemy just like you stated. It is handy though if you can get it fired off in an encounter when a set of enemies may be bunched closer together. And especially if you can tie it in with what the rest of the party will do. In other words when it ties in with tactics at the party level versus individual player level. Not all groups develop that.
My rule for casting Wish as a sorcerer: Try to use it every day as soon as an opportunity arises (good uses are Mind Blank or Glibness) and at the end of the day if you didn't, use it to cast Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion
Someone::Player death is really rare in 5E Me, on 2 hp after the first session because we got attacked by goblins: exists One of m friends, a paladin fully capable of healing me: *runs me over with a wagon*
I've made different posts and comments in regards to "Healing Spirit" being overrated and I'm glad to see other people making public notes as such after the initial outcry of some in the community and it's good for the game and the spell to get other sides of the argument like these videos presented, instead of hyperbolic statements. Healing Spirit often gets compared to Prayer of Healing in stating how it's overpowered. The thing is, no one's saying that Prayer of Healing is just as good as Healing Spirit. They're saying Healing Spirit is a good spell and often worth taking but not always worth casting over a Short Rest. Prayer of Healing is just a BAD spell. Comparing a Good spell to a Bad spell ... yeah, the bad one looks bad. But if you've got 10 minutes of downtime to Prayer of Healing, you VERY often (not always) have time to just take the Short Rest instead. In the end, thank you for being another voice of reason to some of the spells instead of relying on hyperbole and armchair math.
Our DM has decided (along with the rest of us) that Healing Spirit is broken our of combat so when it is cast out of combat you get 4d6 healing instead, this will go up slightly as we level but it makes it a quick heal and tides you over until a proper rest
Seraphimnoted except that’s the trap of Wishing for a Simulacrum. It copies you at the moment of the wish, meaning it wouldn’t have the 9th level spellslot.
Seraphimnoted Simulacrum duplicates you at the moment of casting. If you don’t have your 7th, 8th, or 9th level spellslot (depending on how you cast Simulacrum), then neither would the duplicate. That’s why it’s better to just take the 12 hours. At 20th, it isn’t as bad since you can get epic boons to get around this a little.
Amazing Metapanda well that’s terrible. I looked it up and that really changes how useful spell actually is. Well you cast creation until you have an arbitrary amount of ruby and then you can get 2 simulacrum who can each use wish for you (you make the first one with a 7th level spell slot and then that one casts simulacrum with an 8th level spell slot) so 2 consequence free wishes every 24 hours
@@riddick1128 "Using any material created by this spell as another spell’s material component causes that spell to fail." - From the Creation Spell. The best way to get the ruby dust is to use the True Polymorph aspect of creature into object, but other than that... yeah, that's how you start a Simulacrum-Wish chain unless your DM is playing with Adventure League Rules.
The healing spells become much more powerful when using variant rest rules (short rest=8 hrs, long rest=1 week) ...But otherwise, I agree with the analysis here. :) keep doing what you’re doing!
My house rules to help the curb the power of these spells: - Healing word, "Near Death Fatigue" = Going down to 0 HP causes 1 level of exhaustion. Limits the wack-a-mole character. - Healing Spirit, see Jeremy Crawford twitter's fix to only allow x2 Spellcasting Mod times of healing before spell ends. - Fireball, must fill all spaces of the spell (ish), use dm discretion. So if cast in a confined area the fire will blast down a narrow hallway (both ways) and can cook friends. Remember 20' radius means height too.
It's fun to try and figure out how to make heat metal apply even with targets that aren't wielding/wearing metal. One time I was able to use it by enlarging a pair of manacles, slipping it over the wrist of an enemy, then dropping concentration on enlarge reduce to tighten it on the wrist. It took a bit of set up but was able to cast heat metal next turn.
Yeah, stopped watching at the point where you think it's "immersion-breaking" for monsters not to focus all of their multi-attacks on the person who's down on the ground. No, using up attacks on downed creatures is the thing that is immersion-breaking. Amazingly enough, my PCs almost *never* use up their extra attacks on enemies who are down unless they think the creature is regenerating or is otherwise going to be healed. So, until the monsters see that this is a possibility, it's tactically disadvantageous (even at an animal level) for them to go around beating up downed PCs to ensure that they're dead if there are still other threats still close to them. Most monsters and NPCs, just like the PCs, don't want to die. They would rather make sure all threats are neutralized before making sure all neutralized threats are dead. Now, if an intelligent monster/NPC drops a PC and then sees that PC get healed/regenerate and become a threat again, doing this kind of Coup de Grace is fair game, because that's the exact same strategy the PCs would use. In this situation, I'd actually argue that the creature with animal intelligence would be the one that wouldn't learn from their mistakes to attack the downed PC. And unless the monsters are familiar with the PCs, they wouldn't necessarily assume the PCs had healing, which may be common for PCs, but isn't the norm for all adventures/mercenaries (how much healing does a goblin or orc tribe have?). On a side note, if animal-intelligence monsters are more likely to use lethal attacks on PCs, that makes them that much more of a hassle for PCs to fight animals: They already tend to have little to no treasure, and now they're out to kill the PCs with no regard for their own lives as well?
For a dragon, it kinda makes sense for them to realize that a Cleric will probably heal the downed guy. But, yeah, for a bear or something? No friggin way is it gonna keep fighting the unconscious dude if there's 3 other people trying to kill it.
Also thematically a round is 6 seconds. in that time thee are multiple attackers. it make some sense for a dragon,l lets say, to tail swipe someone attacking from behind or try to fend off multiple targets in front of it with each claw. Not for it to have blinders and down one then then another. Instincts usually side with fending off the immediate threats, and not neutralizing it. Making sure the target is down(focus fire), is literally something that is trained for not innate.
I think the problem with Wish mostly comes from the ability not cast it ever again. Imagine reaching the point where you can cast 9th level spells and learn the most powerful spell a mage can learn only to lose the ability to use it forever due to an unlucky roll. Its the same problem I have with Wild Magic Sorcerers. In a game that has many aspects determined by random chance, the two things I want to have absolute control over are my character and their abilities. I can't speak for anyone else, but it rarely feels good to be told that some aspect of character is not under my direct ability to control or change.
Dragon? Dude, unless you throw a freaking "heal" on the warrior, he's still going down in one turn. Your 1d4+5 heal can easily soak up another 50 damage in overkill, and if he goes down, just cast it again. Not only that, but an extra round from a fighter is INSANE. Let's sum up what healing word ACTUALLY does. lvl1, bonus action. Heal anywhere between 10 and 50 hp. Make 4 attack rolls for say 1d12+6 = 50 damage. And I can't even tell you how often my healing words have healed more in battle than my healing touch. So yeah, I agree that it's better to use a 6th level spell, but the fact that we even need to compare it to a 6th level spell really says it all in my opinion. And my gift of the everliving ones warlock bard will disagree on the OPness of healing spirit. Simulacrum can be used to cast wish without the negative side effects. Also, "I wish that any wish I cast goes into effect the way I imagine it will, without risk or chance of me never being able to cast it again, including this wish".
50 damage in overkill? So, if that happens and he goes down, you aren't casting it again because he's been hit twice at 0 HP and is dead. The scenario you're describing also assumes that the healer goes in between the dying guy and the big damage dealer, the big damage dealer has no legendary actions, there are no minions, and there are no sources of aoe damage. Also, there's quite a few loopholes in the wish description you gave, mostly due to a weird and clunky sentence structure. The most blatant one is that as written, the "it" in "without risk or chance... able to cast it again" appears to be referring to specifically the wish that is being cast in the moment. Ergo if you wish for a jar of peanut butter there will be no risk of never wishing for a jar of peanut butter again but there may be a risk of never wishing for anything else. The DM could also make the character make some kind of check (probably Wisdom or their spellcasting stat) to see what their confidence level is that the initial wish will in fact work. If they fail the check, then they aren't confident which implies that they imagine there's a chance for said wish to fail.
@@brifox I am assuming no minions yes, I am not saying it makes you immortal. If you're down, and you have a big damage dealer as well as minions going at you, you're pretty much fucked in nearly any scenario. Even then, healing word gives the person a chance to get away. Are there higher level spells that are better? Sure, but the very fact that we need to compare it to higher level spells proves the point. If the person is just being targeted by a single creature, then by definition you will go before it goes. Wish could probably be specified more perfectly sure, but I wrote that down in 30 seconds, if I had wish, I could take an entire week or more to iron out the kinks.
DutchDread I cannot agree more regarding Healing Word. Worst case scenario is you soak a bunch of damage. Middling case you buy a turn for a bunch of attacks or a spell with just your bonus action. Best case scenario the tank gets the chance to regain some real HP and is fully back in the fight.
You do know that there are low level dragons right? Like, young dragons? CR 6 with multi attack. A life domain cleric at level 6 can use Healing Word at 3rd level. Thats a max of 22 health. That is less than one bite attack's max damage. Depending on turn order (say cleric goes last and dragon is first) the tank is healed and knocked back down/killed before it can attack. It isn't game breaking, but it is a great spell.
Healing Word is more for keeping the party alive in a consistent way; expending a bonus action to keep a party member in the fight a little longer so the healer can get closer and fully heal them on the next turn. Healing Spirit is definitely situational but looking at the rules, it being concentration, a Circle of the Moon Druid could, with a little work and careful management of their movement, give themselves an extra "shield" against damage that keeps them in their Wild Shape longer without having to expend any more spell slots. As long as they can keep their concentration. Fireball is the perfect room clearer; also great if your Rogue and/or Monk is in danger as they can dodge through Evasion reasonably early on. It can clear the area around them and let them get out of the jam they were in. Swift Quiver definitely comes in late enough that it never is going to break the game. But it does work as a great perk to help deal a little extra damage for a Ranger whose playstyle has allowed for that kind of spell to slot in nicely. Wish...the bit that catches my attention is always "The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect." There is no limitations written outside of it being 8th level or lower, so your Wizard or Sorcerer or even Bard with this spell could cast ANYTHING as long as it's 8th level or lower. And likely counts as being cast as a 9th level spell. The whole other thing is much too asking for DM interpretation for something that may or may not work. That part of the spell should be saved for when you REALLY need it. I like the basic use over most of the fancier things so it being talked about being a "game breaker" confused me.
"Healing word is a low level spell that is used to heal without cause someone to get a healing duty" "Healing word is overrated because in high level games it really doesn't do much" - Wow, just wow. Its almost like you guys forgot what you said just before. Ofc healing word is not good while fighting a dragon. Its like expecting that magic missile to be good while fighting a Lich.
You're the one who didn't listen. They said these spells are _overrated._ Not bad. They're good spells, but are seen as even better than they actually are.
I saw the argument for healing spirit. In moments when time is of the essence in earlier levels play, that 10d6 isn't in 10 minutes, it's in 1 minute, with active perception checks. Just 1 minute of conga line versus an hour. Short Rests do have their place, but 10d6 worth of healing to an unlimited amount of characters in one minutes has it's place too. Heck in a war setting I could see this kind of powerful overbearing level of healing can turn human wave tactics into a more viable strategy because all it takes us 1 minute of strange rotating formations for that particular force to be refreshed. Soldiers that had no chance to dive back in during this combat, because those few precious un-renewable cleric or Druid slots are being reserved for powerful potent magic or stray attacks hitting a commander now have a very powerful tool to mitigate the carnage. You could base an entire campaign on how healing spirit allowed people to rule a continent with odd, but effective shield wall rotations and in battle healing stations.
Well any spell of 8th level or lower, without having it prepared, or needing any casting time or components is a pretty good "get out of jail free card" when the party gets in a sticky situation...
Fireball, i don't use it often. But when we got hired out to decimate a Gnoll warband i had it prepared. Once we were engaged and we gained full awareness of the Horde we faced. It became apparent that i would be casting it every turn of this combat.
Yeah...i'm not gonna play under a GM who will just slam 4 almost-sure-to-hit, high-damage attacks on one character, because it's "realistic like that". It's the middle ages. Dying from tetanus after getting bitten by a rat is realistic, doesn't mean it's fun. If you purposefully deal 100+ damage in one turn to a player character who is already injured, that just tells me you are playing against your players and actively trying to kill their characters.
@@Jonnycrust5 I guess that depends on what kind of game you play. If you purposely want to give your players a grueling challenge, I guess it works, but I feel like a DM should not be actively out for the party's blood. Because let's be honest here, if a DM wants the party dead, there's a million ways they can do it, and the party won't be able to do anything about it.
if the DM really wanted to murder the players, Zeus would just kill the players. It mostly depends on the NPC\creature. how would they act. is the npc an assassin that is confirming the kill? is the animal feral or bloodthirsty? who really cares about death anyway? you either roll up a new character if you die at a lower level, or you have enough money for the resurrection cost.
@@Jonnycrust5 Well, some people actually get invested in the roleplaying aspect of the game and not just rolling the highest damage number. So yeah, i do care if my low-lv character gets roflstomped, because the GM thought it would be realistic to attack somebody 5 times who has 5 hp left.
I watched this video way back and I have some more clear opinions on those: 1. Indeed - Some classes even get ranged bonus action healing as a class feature, such as the Circle of Dreams Druid or the Celestial Patron Warlock. Also, spells like Spike Growth dealing damage at the start of the creature's turn notably hinder the effectiveness of yoyo healing without upcasting. 2. Recently there's been an Errata that the spirit can only heal 1 + casting modifier of times before disappearing. Some DMs really do like having attrition in their encounter days, so a spell that fully heals the party in a minute can be disruptive if there's ever a lengthier encounter day - on top of making Prayer of Healing grandly outclassed. 3. At the end of the day, it's just damage. If you didn't take anything out with that spell, you didn't really meaningfully alter the flow of battle. Also consider that at mid-/high levels, enemies tend to have way too many HP for Fireball to effectively decimate them. Casting multiple in a battle can help but may leave you too dry on spells for later. 4. It's amazing how much damage you could get if instead you just took two levels of Hexblade Warlock. At Level 11 that's three attacks with no resources expended (though you can amp up the damage with Hexblade's Curse or the Hex Spell) and you still have a bonus action for things like Healing Word or Bardic Inspiration. 5. In Wish's defense, duplicating spells is a completely safe and very viable way of using the spell, especially since you bypass long casting times and/or expensive components. Even without chaining, getting a Simulacrum on tap is a powerful move and it's also nice to have access to spells like Resurrection. That said I feel you can do a lot more shenanigans using Shapechange/True Polymorph.
You missed their points, ill summarize them for you. Healing word isn't bad, it's good, even, just not gamebreaking. It especially falls off in utility at higher levels. It's greatest disadvantage is that it heals so little. If you res a level 8 fighter to 7 hp, against something with multi attack, the first attack will knock the fighter back down, the second is an auto-crit that makes him fail 2 death saves, and the third, if the creature has a third, will kill him. Not knock unconscious, kill.
@@Takapon218 As allen pointed out, its rare that your fighter starts an enemy turn with 7 health. Its when using Healing Word to bring back a downed party member mid-fight where you have to be careful, and why its not as good as lots of people claim it is.
people saying these spells (or any spells really) are outright broken is silly to me. I haven't come accross any i would consider broken. if you have a group of PC's that manage to come up with a tactics that use these spells to their fullest potential.. that's just good strategy and makes for awesome RP.
One of the major issues we didn't discuss in the video -- because we spent nearly an hour discussing it while filming -- is just how much the Wish spell relies on DM interpretation. The lesson here is "be careful what you wish for" -- it really makes players cautious to use the spell. There are famous examples of the wish spell backfiring on a character due to poor wording from countless campaigns, and it seems to us that many DMs take a little bit of glee in twisting a wish. We'd love to hear stories about when the Wish spell was used in your campaigns, as we'd love to discuss it more in a future video.
I had a player try to wish a villain dead. I could not let that happen, and I made it clear initially that Wish was dangerous to use when you use it outside the listed effects. He said "I wish 'the villain' was dead." I told him the wish went off, and something happened. Needless to say, my necromancer illithid was still alive. When they won the right way, and came back to Waterderp, they discovered a traveling Bard named Max "The Villain" McClain had died of a heart attack.
@@100nodog When I read the first half of your post I thought the punchline was going to be that the villain was secretly undead so the wish had no effect (for some reason I think of necromancers as undead).
I take a lot of glee warping wish. But not because I want to be necessarily mean to the players. A player casting a wish and getting what they want is sometimes the end of the campaign. Sometimes those players do not want to say goodbye to their characters right yet, so....why not use a backfired wish to create a new situation for the players to deal with. Sometimes the best wish you can grant to the players is the one they didn't realize they wanted.
My favorit have got to be once when someone went "I wish I would never see that beholder again!" And it became permanently invicible..Could have been worse..the character could have been blinded forever..
You mean invisible?
The problems with wish are:
1. Most DMs feel the need to twist the wish so that it does usually more harm than good.
2. 33% chance to never use this spell again.
Wasting a ninth level spell slot on endangering the party and probably losing your most versatile spell forever? Nope, not gonna do that!
One of the best uses of healing spirits I’ve seen is when our wizard (me) used sleep to take the BBEG out of combat for a minute, while our druid used healing spirit to get us all up to full health. We ended up killing the mindflayer which, upon death, let out a psychic shriek that took some of our party down to 0 hp. If we hadn’t healed up, those that failed their save would end up outright dead.
In a one-shot where I was the Ranger, we paused after surviving a fight with a Flesh Golem while sneaking into an enemy fortress and I used it to heal up the people who had been hurt, including myself and my falcon. While exploring the same area, we ended up spying on the evil baron and when our Fighter stepped forward to challenge him, he transported us all to a demiplane and turned into a huge monster. It was a difficult fight and we nearly lost, we certainly would have if we had gone in without healing up.
My problem with healing spirit is that if it was meant to be used like that, it shouldn't completely outclass prayer of healing in literally every way.
@@mgb360 10 mins cast for 2d8+wis or Bonus acton for 10x 1d6 over a ,minute so just pair the spirits with beacon of hope for 60HP
Imagine the BBEG being affected by sleep though lol
One of my players multi classed into a life domain cleric to add a flat +4 healing on each tick, making the spell even with the lowest rolls (if you somehow nat1'ed every roll) a minimum heal of 50 hitpoints for a 2nd level slot (which for a small group of players of 3-4 is pretty busted). With average rolls (using 3's not 4's), that would be 70 hp restored to potentially the whole group, which even with some more healthier PC's still would probably give them at least 50% of their hp back, if not closer to 75-100% depending on class and CON score
"I wish I was a better wizard!"
Done
*beard grows 2 inches longer*
That's a bit disappointing...it could at least grow 2 dm longer.
And he gets a pointy, wide brimmed hat.
+1 to inteligence
Age them 200 years and +1 to their Wisdom...
Change alignment to "anything" Good. If already a Good alignment, nothing chances
wait what do you mean fireballs overrated, i haven't found a better spell to light my campfires with
Bram Valstar May I recommend using Meteor Swarm?
Its funnier when create campfire exists
Use True Polymorph to light the campfire by transforming it into a Fire Elemental
@@InquisitorThomas no that's only for indoor use
The Bicycle that's basic, real pro start fires by opening a gate straight to Gehenna.
"dont use fireball when something else is more usefull"
"whats your point person within fireball distance."
*JoCat and BigDickWizard6969 busts the door down*
"Counterspell"
To be fair, I've seen people use fireball against a single target.
@@Guydude777 THANK YOU
@@Guydude777
"D-D-D-DISPELLLL MAGIC!"
OMG "Now that Monty has wished for the spell to be removed he can't ever cast it again" OMG I'm dying here LOL
The best part of healing word is it's range. Your life domain Cleric can stay safe and still give aid to an ally without risking opportunity attacks to get there
The war domain Cleric can aid the downed fighter while still bashing the skull in on the goblin in front of him.
The druid can heal an ally and then shift into a beast form immediately afterwards.
It is an action economy thing and helping keep good posistioning.
Agreed 100%.
Also, I find it funny how they argued for needing "more hit points" when an equivalent level Cure Wounds will give +2hp/level on average. Even if you were casting it at 4th level, if your fighter can take multiple additional attacks from a dragon with 8 extra hp, I want to know what type of dragons you're fighting.
I'll amend this by noting that if you're using your bonus action for spiritual weapon most of the time, cure wounds gains a different advantage. Depends a lot on playstyle.
Ive lost count of the amount of times Scanlan Shorthalt saved his friends with Healing Word.
To make the video more visually appealing, some kind of simple stat block graphic for the spells you talk about would be immensely helpful to viewers understanding what you're talking about.
And might pull copyright problems
MorgorDre not if they mock up their own stat blocks, not just use the image from whatever manual the spell is from
Or actually just look it up or if you play the game you'll know
Hmm, I agree it’d be nice, but they’re saying the stats out loud. It’s not like they skip describing the spell and just talk about how overrated it is.
I would just like to say that my favorite spell, Wall of Force, is a top tier spell and is in no way overrated. It is delightfully broken and I like it that way.
How?
@@gamingstudios-cf2qf How often do you run into things that can break a wall of force? It's not unbeatable by any means, but the vast majority of monsters can't do shit to it.
Cyclops was right.
My party trapped a pretty powerful enemy in a wall of force and let our bard rap battle it to death
"Be careful what you wish for. You just might get it."
- Ancient D&D Proverb, and so true!
😉
He dosent give you what you whant, but what you wish. Evry man who cross his path learn the difference.
I started a campaign with giveing my players the monkeys paw and the campaign is fixing the side effects of the unintended consequences of the wish.
I wish to have total immunity against suffering the negative sideeffects of casting the wishspell and that it is impossible for me to not be able to cast wishspell ever again.
@@rotschadel3574Why would you WISH for something that you didn't want?
@@Joe_Narbaiz well i hope you dont cross paths with him
you would learn what the difference between what one wishes and what someone wants is the hard way
but the most important question is : "Can you use wish to make someone able to cast wish again?"
i used it to piss off my GM once xD
I actually asked my DM this and he said I could do it but the way I had went about it was keep a wish scroll with me and if I ever lost the ability I would have a party member use it for me
I wish for three wishes, classic
That would have made me laugh my butt off... And I would have allowed it. XD
How about a wish spell to give you 2 level 9 spell slots forever with no other change to the world?
@@evannibbe9375 I would rule it works, maybe make a percentile dice roll if that changes the PC in some way in addition to the roll to keep wish
Imagine thinking it's disruptive to stop a total party kill.
Some GMs haven't yet worked out that their job isn't to actually try and wipe the party.
@@BlueTressym That's a fair point.
Imagine thinking PCs don't have any other limited resources they need to recover besides their hit points.
Imagine thinking it's fair to attk 1 PC with 2 claw attacks a bite and then a breath weapon and not allowing them a viable healing option
@@marekcowan8174 If you want your DM to babysit you through the campaign, Fine, If not, that is what a monster that is trying really hard to kill you would do. And "denying a viable healing option" is too vague to talk about.
I've played the Archer Bard build before and it was pretty fun. One subtle strength of Swift Quiver is that unlike most features that give you a Bonus Action attack, such as Crossbow Expert, Swift Quiver does not require you to take the Attack action beforehand. That lets you cast a powerful Bard spell with your Action and then fire off two arrows with your bonus action. It feels like a beefier version of a Cleric's Spiritual Weapon in that way. Requiring Concentration is a big limiting factor though, and it may not measure up to other concentration spells like Animate Objects that you mentioned.
5:35 Not to mention that Dragons are highly intelligent, and many can use magic themselves. I'd wager that few dragons are foolish enough to leave a heal-able target lying there instead of ripping it apart and saving itself future trouble.
But if another player just crit the dragon and did a chunk of damage, I think it reasonable that he might change target either out of anger or just smartly prioritising the targets.
@@nathanthom8176 Maybe so, maybe not. Maybe the dragon can tank a few crits. Maybe the one that died would cause more trouble. Maybe it isn't a red dragon, and thus doesn't have anger issues. But a crit is rare. More often than not, the dragon's most likely decision is to rip it's victim apart, instead of half-assing it like a pride-less humanoid.
@@lawaern3474 fair enough, I am not suggesting that it should always have the same result. Personally if I was DMing and we weren't very far through the campaign, I would probably change the target, especially if you see a potential TPK on its way.
Personally this isn't too much of a problem for me as a player as my group tends to play smart and if a player goes down we normally have someone who can neutralise the enemies advantage on an unconscious player (darkness, fog cloud) and if I am not the downed player I will use Thunder step to get the player way from the enemy. Seriously as I am the primary support player in most of our campaigns, I find that Thunder step is the one spell I will always take.
@@nathanthom8176 Only a fool does not take teleports if they get the chance.
@@lawaern3474 exactly although I find Thunder step the best battle version as it also does damage and is available at lvl3, so even if I don't want to be a full caster class I can still get it with a dip of 3 levels of warlock.
Kickass 1984 shirt.
Doubleplusgood shirt.
And if the party says it is a bad shirt, not good, how is it then, Winston?
@Urban Development if you ever want to prove an opinion isn't a fact. Look no further than this guy right here. ^
My group used Healing Spirit after a big encounter they walked into after a short rest in a hostile dungeon.
The wizard dropped it to bring the sorc back up, then moved it so that she walked through it next turn.
The fight was cleaned up the next round, they did the Healing Spirit Conga for the next 48 seconds, and they were all topped up.
As a new DM trying to punish the players for Tiny Hut camping in hostile dungeons, I thought it was absolutely brilliant. In no way broken.
i think an orc shirt would say "war is freedom peace is dull"
Twilight Gardens presentations The quote is from 1984 by George Orwell
Evan Nibbe It's not quite the quote. "War is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength."
My strange half orc would wear a shirt saying, "I live for the fight, I bask in the peace."
Or you could quote Homer: "Men grow tired of sleep, love, singing and dancing, sooner than war."
As a sorcerer, I can only exchange spells known upon a level-up. This means that if I know the Wish spell at level 20, I'm stuck with it until I wish something else and I can't cast wish at all, effectively removing 1 from my limited number of spells known, permanently. Knowing this, it imposes a time limit to use the non-8th level wish ability until I can't; which will allow me to be a lot more brazen in wishing for something like that.
The verbal incantation when I cast healing word is "stay down!"
I find Haste, a level three spell, to be nearly effective as Swift Quiver but at 6th level and it also has defensive and evasive options. Also, Haste should be on the dang Bard Spell List!!! It's a classic buff, it really shouldn't have to burn a magical secret.
My problem with wish is: the warning that DM's have free reign to "monkey's paw" your wish if you go too crazy with it is already good enough to get players to pump the breaks a little. The prospect of taking wish out of a players spell list forever because they tried to be creative and it comes down to a die roll is too much and a bit ridiculous. Players finding creative solutions to problems, and going through the effort to meticulously explain the wish's paramaters, is a fantastic way to build story and have a good time.
Just found you guys yesterday but ive already watched about 70% of your videos. You're videos are fantastic and you've earned yet another fan.
Also, fireball should be catching everything on fire, changing a combat into a skill challenge to escape a burning area as well as burning useful objects in the area (scrolls, spell books, important letters, paper money, etc.).
This.
Nah
Fireball in Divinity Original Sin does exactly that.
Always felt much more appropriate for elemental spells to change the battlefield for a long amount of time.
Lightning Bolt does catch everything on fire, but it operates only in a straight line out from the caster compared to Fireball's 20 foot radius at a distance. Two spells of the same level and damage _should_ have trade-offs like that.
@@mal2ksc Yeah, fire ball does have a trade off, if that enemy is near an Allie you might kill them.
"Healing Word and Healing Spirit are overrated."
As someone who played a Lvl 1 Life Cleric + Shepard Druid I disagree.
I have no clue where they're coming from. "You can just short rest to do the same thing as healing spirit"? You get only half your hit dice on a *long* rest, and healing spirit is doing your hit dice 4 times per long rest. If you only cast it four times. Healing spirit is in no way overrated. Its *blatantly* overtuned. There's no reason to have a spell that is *that* much more efficient than cleric party heal spells. That section of the video felt like a half-baked hot take. DD's may be correct a lot of the time, but they can certainly be wrong, too.
@@bodbyssHealing spells in all rpg and competitive games has to be more effecient then dmg and given sustian options or else its redundant. This means numbers to numbers one can always say its overtunned and theres always people that do. However thing about heal spells is they dont kill meaning they cant be a replacement for the necessary dmg in games, so I seldom call healing op.
I think people overrate it too, along with most combat spells people say are broken. First of all, starting a combat at full health might be helpful, but it doesn't solve the encounter. In my experience, combat go south not because the party didn't start at full health, but because someone failed a key save or a string of bad rolls happened. Lastly, players are at low health, they just won't continue. Healing spirit just allows for the players to push for one more encounter before calling it a day, that's it.
@@rafaelbordoni516 Exactly. Healing spirit is a second level spell that does a lot of healing, but isn't going to solve everything. It doesn't restore some abilities like a short rest does, it doesn't trivialize encounters that are dangerous enough to kill players anyways, and it doesn't perform nearly as well in actual combat. It's also a very exclusive spell that not every party has access too.
@@bodbyss
It's a great, big out of combat heal. But comparing it to prayer of healing? Why? No one used it, because it's a horrible spell. Healing spirit is used, because it's actually good. A bit strong in its role? Yes. Gamebreaking? Of course not, combats are designed assuming you start at full hp.
In the old days you went through 10 levels as a fighter and ten levels as a thief and then you got to be a Bard and you picked up the Druid spells and instruments.
Healing word is awesome for keeping people from actually dying, but any other uses are kinda meh.
Healing spirit , I do think is very limited in its overall use ability
Fireball is Iconic and I am biased, But I really like it
Swift quiver is too high level and limited to be worth it
Wish.... well if cast properly, can be gamebreaking, but an awesome spell overall, and can overcome some otherwise character ending conditions
Jerry Beard Lobo!!
HEALING WORD?! :O Where's Cody?!?!?!
lol and Cody is one my favorite commentators of 5e D&D :) This is just one point he and I would have to agree to disagree on ;)
I did not know wether to laugh or question the community's sanity.
Who is Cody?
@@JUGGERNAUT5007U He's the host of Taking20 here on youtube. Lots of quality D&D content. Check him out!
I gotta agree with Cody on this one.
This is the best D&D channel ever. It helped me figure out how to play a few years back, and I don't even have a consistent D&D game group anymore, but I still come back to these videos and could still listen to you two talk about it forever. Many days of work have gone by a lot faster because I had a tier list of Paladin classes in the background to keep me entertained, haha. Thanks for all the hours of great videos over the years!
Thank you so much! We appreciate the kind words.
My dudes! Looking forward to another one of these.
Also. Your timing always makes me crave some DnD play when I'm in the middle of a bi-week break between each session. *I'm a fiend*
Healing Spirit has been heavily nerfed since you did this video. It now does a maximum of 6D6 healing (Casting stat modifier + 1).
I was just looking it up, and came to the comments to find where the discrepancy came from, thank you
War is peace;
Freedom is slavery;
Ignorance is strength.
And the Big Brother is always watching you.
Cool video and nice t-shirt... ;)
Anyway, I never understood why some DMs and players are so picky about what this or that character combo can do this or that thing.
Are people doing it to break the game intentionally? Well, youbas the DM can break that character im game (my favorite is using the exact same combo against disruptive players).
They are doing to make the game more fun for everyone? Hell yeah! I would love to see it happening.
It seems people still fail to understand that while the job of a DM is to present challenges, this isn't the same of being an enemy of the party.
V
Fireball is a nice spell for aoe damage but as you guys mentioned, fire is one of if not THE most resisted type of damage. Also people tend to forget to account for potential collateral damage. I remember one situation particularly where my teams spellcaster used fireball in combat then after combat when we were looting the area we found evidence of a scroll that was burned to ashes and unreadable. After the session our DM revealed the scroll had some really useful info for finding the location of some very important artifacts that we were questing for. Big oof.
Always transmute it to thunderbomb
Well I consider it to still be a good choice for the Curse of Strahd campaign. Would not take it into the Avernus campaign though, at least not without the Elemental Adept feat. :D
Was waiting to provide the spells you missed, but man, you nailed it. I especially loved your points on Wish - excellent points. Great vid!
Thanks Chris! We really hemmed and hawed over whether or not we were going to discuss Wish in this list. It is undeniably amazing, but we've witnessed the "wish effect" across multiple campaigns where players didn't use their 9th level spell slots because they felt like any use of the slot that wasn't casting Wish was "wasting it".
1: healing word
2: healing spirit
3: fireball
4: swift quiver
5: wish
It's in the description.....
1. Indeed Healing Word has its drawbacks, but the spell indeed significantly alters the playstyle depending on whether or not it's available. Being able to heal as a bonus action and at range is very powerful even at higher levels, although sometimes you should indeed upcast the spell for a frontliner - a Life Cleric (16 Wis) will heal ~12 HP with a second level slot and ~15 HP with a third level slot and ~19 HP with a fourth level slot. That may be a poor exchange on the long-term but may sometimes be necessary.
2. I think you're missing out on the fact that Hit Dice only recover by half on a long rest and in total only provide the character's HP pool at most. And 2-3 encounter days is the reason why nova-intense classes like Paladins and Sorcerers pull ahead so easily. What Healing Spirit also allows is for players to do a lot more facetanking against environmental hazards and traps as HP is no longer a concern for anyone.
3. The problem here is mainly that other damage-dealing spells tend to be very anemic and it's not exactly unreasonable to want to play a spellcaster for dealing damage. Also, Warlocks can easily deal strong turn-after-turn damage with their Eldritch Blast with options to pump out even more damage both through multiclasses and innate features. Plus "consistent" is overrated as you already admitted to only run a few encounters per day, which generally makes higher peak damage much more valuable. Finally, Fireball is a super bland AoE damage effect and there's way too little options for non-fire based blasters.
4. Valor Bards don't really invest anything substantial when they take Swift Quiver as a magical secret. And you need to consider that the spell allows bards to compete with Fighters in being Fighters well enough to be used for that position. Fighters on the other hand fail entirely to compete with bards in being bards, not having most of their options available. So it's really just being a marginally weaker DPR character in exchange for a humongous toolbox neither the Fighter nor Ranger compete with.
5. Okay that one I fully agree with - the spell has no reason to exist in the first place.
The usefulness of spells (and othe game mechanics) depends entirely on the DM. The players wreck your encounters with fireballs? Throw monsters with high dex and avoidance at them. The party wants a long rest after every battle? Have things happen in the game world while they rest (enemies prepare ambushes or summon get reinforcements). The Fighter/Barb/Ranger/Monk Kills bosses to fast? Swarm them with minions and use enemies with high AC. Or have en enemy mage use things like Blur or Enemies Abound. The party has too much healing? Make sure they need it or hit them with other effects like stat drain or exhaustion.
The only reason I would ban a spell is if its so strong that it takes away player choice. If a player would feel punished for not picking it because it doesnt match their character concept. And even then I'd rather modify things than outright ban them.
In my games for example healing spirit is a level 5 spell to make the cost proportional with the amount of healing it does. I also "nerfed" spells like fireball by making them cause a lot of collateral damage and might backfire when used in tight spaces.
That's a lovely approach to balance, but I can't help but point out that Fireball innately causes huge collateral damage and it's intended to. Most players and DMs just tend to overlook that it damages EVERYTHING in the area and catches anything not worn or carried on fire. People think of it as a short burst of fire that immediately goes out rather than the fiery explosion that it's supposed to be.
Wish is really interesting to me because a wizard can use it to, say, create a scroll of a brand new spell that the wizard made and can inscribe into their spell book.
Creating your own spell is one of the defining achievements of a high-level wizard, and those who have prove that they're in a league above all other wizards, at least in my eyes.
Healing Spirit got nerfed with a more recent errata (April 2020 - Yes, I realize this video came out before then). It now has a limit on how many times it can heal.
When talking about control spells, my favorite combo is slow with synaptic static. Have a bane already on or bard throw cutting words, and this becomes some serious bad news for a single powerful enemy or a number of minions.
Casting wish to gain the benefits of a long rest would be awesome
My daughter used wish to cast speak with animals in our last session. 😳
I find the idea that a creature would continue to attack a downed player when there are other hostiles still standing kinda off, most animals have a basic sense of threat priority
Depends on the creature in my opinion. I think both situations have obvious advantages or disadvantages. An intelligent dragon can probably easily deduce there is a cleric or some means of healing and that if they leave someone downed they're likely to come back up. It only makes sense to try to kill them outright. Meanwhile less intelligent creatures may not think of that and move on to the nearest immediate threat. Or perhaps its a very savage unintelligent creature that just wants to kill everything or kill and get out, etc.
There's plenty of reasons why a creature would or wouldn't attempt to kill a downed creature, but I think the point they're trying to make is that most people use healing to get a PC conscious and then the enemy usually hits them once and ignores them ad infinitum. Most DMs don't really realize that a creature with 3 multiattacks can almost always guaranteed slay a character if they knock it unconscious on the first hit.
You are correct that a monster would probably start on a new foe after downing a foe last round but it is far more realistic for it to 'complete its multi-attack' on the same target once it has started than to break off its attack mid way. Having something that wants to kill you suddenly stop mid attack because you fell over (to save the PC) is totally unrealistic esp. if you are the only viable target in range.
Right. This.
@@elgatochurro Simple, use your enemies INT stat to determine if they can know downed creatures can be healed. An owlbear or dire wolf would move to a new target, but humanoids or dragons are smart enough to know the necessity of going for the kill.
@John Ploopy which would make for a really interesting sidequest of tracking down the owlbear that took ur party member
So about that disscussion of Healing Spirit at 7:30
"You call forth a nature spirit to soothe the wounded. The intangible spirit appears in a space that is a 5-foot cube you can see within range. The spirit looks like a transparent beast or fey (your choice).
Until the spell ends, whenever you or a creature you can see moves into the spirits space for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, you can cause the spirit to restore 1d6 hit points to that creature (no action required). The spirit can’t heal constructs or undead.
As a bonus action on your turn, you can move the Spirit up to 30 feet to a space you can see. ""The spirit can heal a number of times equal to 1 + your spellcasting ability modifier (minimum of twice)."" After healing that number of times, the spirit disappears."
It can only heal a number of times = to 1 + spellcasting modifier. Assuming you maxed the stat and didn't use magic items to boost it beyond a +5, that's a grand total of 6d6 of healing total per 2nd lv spell slot. 21hp is the expected value for a capped stat. In comparison a cure wounds at 2nd lv is 2d8 + spellcasting modifier. Assuming the same max stat caster that's on average 14hp. so only 7 points of hp more in total, and it can be shut down by a failed concentration save. I think it's pretty much perfectly balanced if you consider the full wording of the spell.
I realized my folly. that extra d6 of healing is per healing use. you are getting effectively 6d6 extra healing for each addition slot above 1st.
No, you did actually get it wrong I think. 2nd slot 21hp expected total, 3rd 42hp expected total, 4th 63 etc. Do keep in mind total heals are capped at 1 + spellcasting modifier for a typical max of 6 doses of healing per cast.
"hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of points of healing." 168hp total expected from a 9th lv slot
These changes were added later, after we made this episode, in an errata. The original interpretation didn’t have a limit to its use.
@@DungeonDudes oh wow, ok. That Erata curbed the overhealing a bit, but it grows rapidly with higher lv slots. I personally like the spell. There's enough risk of dropping it, and risk of not being able to move it close enough to a character that needs it in time, that it feels decently balanced.
As a DM I cannot wait to let my adventurers come across a wish ring. Payback will be sweet
As a DM, I gave them one at session 0, they don't know it yet sssshhhhh!
True, I think something about risking it for the biscuit keeps people from being practical, it gives you a false sense of hope that you can outsmart your DM by being super specific and still getting unsavory results in the end.
And that's low-key brilliant, Richard. I might have to sneak in a ring and see how x it takes them to figure it out
A wish ring was absolutely necessary in my particular (Pathfinder) game as the party found themselves in a long campaign arc on Avernus with only a paladin, an alchemist and a bard for magic use - without wishes, they would have no way to revive fallen companions in a 12th-15th level segment with no friendly towns save a Fey Merchant.
That said, with powerful players without high level casting at their disposal anyway, no one has even thought about replicating wizard spells and the wishes have become effectively very expensive resurrection scrolls that the party can actually use.
@@ReineCerise
Sounds like the actual problem is an adversarial relationship between the players and the DM. Or rather, players who perceive the relationship that way (any DM who _actually_ wants the PCs dead can achieve this at any time).
TBH, I think a large percentage of the people who think Wish can just do _anything_ are people who've never played D&D who are getting their idea of how it works from stories made up by other people who've _also_ never played.
my DM gave us 4 wishes at lvl 5. We hoarded those fuckers until he forced them out of us by sending an ancent dragon at us when we in no way were equipped to deal with it.
Healing Word are not overrated at all. It's a bonus action and there are so many times I have found items that gives you and the allies buffs while healing. You can get status like Heroism, Bless or Protection from Good/Evil from just using a 1-level bonus spell. And even if you don't have a item it still can save the day as it is incredible useful in combat.
Okay so my problems with healing spirit(I might be a bit ranting) :
First of all compare it to any other healing spell. Starting with Prayer of Healing, which takes 10 minute to cast and heals up to 6 creatures in range for 3d8 + wis mod. So 10d6 for any number after 1 minute vs 3d8 + 4/5 for 6 people max.
Healing word or cure wounds heal 2d4/8 + wis mod.
Next point:
Short rest use hit dice which you only get half of back after a long rest. Meaning after 2-3 days of exploring/fighting you usually can't heal really up with this. And spell slots get regained after a long rest.
And this even works in combat. And while a Druid is wildshaped.
Potions exist and other stuff but don't forget it doesn't cost anything to cast, automatically stabilizes people in it after 1 round and it heals 10d6 at second level for unlimited people.
A second level spell slot is worth around 100 gp = 2 healing potion meaning:
4d4 + 8 vs 10d6.
2 Actions vs 1 bonus action
One-time use vs everyday use
It's just dumb.
Also a short rest can't be taken when doing literally anything not eating, drinking or sleeping. So you have to wait 1 hour for something that takes a minute.
Sorry, but almost all your points were incomplete on this one. None of the other spells are actually problematic for me. They are better than most same level spells, but nothing to bad.
But healing spirit destroys any gritty situation after level 4.
I fixed it by only allowing 1 heal per round. Meaning maximum is 10d6. Which makes it completely balanced compared to spells like prayer of healing which is intended to be taken instead of a short rest.
I love playing druids but it actually felt wrong to use it because it's just making every other source of healing useless. And it's range. And not even an action. And can be used while wild shaped. And it's movable. It's not even static.
I can't even think of a reason for clerics to prepare Cure Wounds anymore. At level 1 there's healing word for emergency healing at the opportunity cost of 4 potential HP (which, using the same argument for healing word being balanced, is far too little to matter in the times healing word is used). Thanks to healing spirit, the only time you'd want to cast cure wounds at second level is when you want to gamble that 2d8+mod is enough to keep your target alive for a whole round of combat.
When you have a third level spell slot (and are level 5) cure wounds is outscaled by enemy damage and it's now emergency healing again. Which mean healing word is always a better option again. Outside of combat, there's no reason to ever consider upcasting cure wounds since healing spirit exists.
I don't think it's that big a deal, but if someone dedicated their character to healing as a cleric (which I don't recommend) and was massively outperformed in their specialty during downtime, I can understand their frustration. Especially if it's a damage dealer character who performs it. But there's not a lot of functional difference between 10 min and 1 hr in game, so I'm not sure why you would have 10 minutes, but not take a short rest.
On top of all this was a point emphasized in a game I have previously played in. The druid put it directly behind the tank in a fight. What each player would do, is use just 5-10 ft of the movement EACH TURN to gain 1d6. It simply states they have to enter it. Meaning that one person can walk through EACH TURN. Effectively making use of every point James brought up, and the fact that every player can trade only 10 feet of movement for 1d6 hitpoints for a full minute. In effect, we all gained 6d6 hitpoints for one spell, accessed at druid level 4, in the middle of combat.
@@liger04 there are still situations:
Supreme healing gives always max value making cure wounds quite nice for getting someone during a fight bavk on their feet.
And there is a subclass im Xanarthar'sGuide (grave Domain), which grants the max value, if the target was at 0 hp. Making cure wounds almost doube as effective. And it can especially on low level play be better to cast cure wounds in a fight getting someone up to half their health or just getting them back to full out of combat.
@@MrKostrom it depends on whether your gm actively usees and looks at time or just says it goes by. In my campaigns time was important. Especially during exploration or dungeoning. More time doing nothing means allowing the enemy to prepare more. Giving some enemies a chance of retreat or so. While you take a short rest you can't take watch or stand guard or search for some thing. Meaning that during a dungeon crawl you don't have an hour to sit and do nothing. Because at every second you could get jumped by enemies(making you surprised and your first round essentially useless) While during the casting of prayer of healing another player can stand watch, people can search for something or loot the defeated foes or investigate something they saw. A wizard can identify something they found.
Most times when you fought it was loud and you aren't in a safe place, else why would you have fought. So during the casting you could also barricade the entrances to prepare a short rest.
And as I said if you have a dungeon crawl or so for more than just 2 days, you don't have the hit dice for healing. Especially casters get really fast really low on hp even with short rests.
Also during a long rest you can't take a short rest, making healing after a raid om your group or not available outside from magic.
It depends on your game, but if the gm is in any way tactical and/or realistic when it comes to time and what you can do, which all games I was in were and which I as a GM always am and GMs like Matthew Colville are as well, healing isn't accessible from short rest most of the time.
Think about the following, if you had the choice between doing nothing for 1 hour or doing something in 10 minutes, which would you choose? Especially since the 1 hour is free surprise for enemies, allowing enemies to prep traps and ambushes or retreats. It costs time you might need to find a safe place to spend the night.
But if you have a less tactical game or a more funny/less realistic one, which is totally valid for everyone who wants that, it surely isn't as bad in comparison. The thing is, in those games balance isn't an issue. It doesn't really matter if there are no real consequences that would usually make something impossible. These games can be unbalanced in quite a few ways and everything's fine. In more tactical games a bir unbalance is noticed really fast.
Hey! It has been awhile since I had the DnD bug but I was the one months ago asking you guys to include time stamps to help jump around your discussion. Not only am I happy to see you include that but your conversations on the whole seem much tighter and more focused and I love it! Have a subscribe!
Years ago, in an earlier edition, I allowed the party to find an evil sword of 3 wishes. They never used it.
Healing Spirit seems like an ideal complement for helping an overwhelmed fortress wall to heal up to fight off the next wave of attackers. Or any other situation where you have more than a squad and less than a century to heal up in a bloody great big hurry and you can move a lot of bodies in unison very quickly through a narrow area.
How often would a wild animal (dragons included) keep attacking an enemy that is on the ground and looks dead, when they could be focusing on people that are attacking them? By that logic, monsters should just keep attacking corpses every round.
Again, we are talking about the specific circumstance where a creature with more than one attack drops a target on their first attack. A lot of DMs then have the creature stop their attacks and move on to another target for the remaining attacks. We actually feel this is something only a tactically intelligent creature would do.
We are not talking about attacking a target that was already downed at the start of the monsters turn. In that case most of the time yes, it’s more likely the creature move to a fresh foe (unless it is an ambush predator in which case it’s probably going to try to flee with the body)
Dungeon Dudes What’s the difference? It makes even less sense in the case of an intelligent creature like a dragon, because that’s basically just playing them like a bloodlusted wild animal instead of a smart creature.
Dungeon Dudes Plus the point of multiattacks is to spread the damage around to different characters. If it was meant to all attack the same guy, wouldn’t it just be one really damaging attack?
@@edcellwarrior Well, the difference is that at the start of the round, a creature might fully intend to launch all of its attacks against the target in front of it, because they don't know exactly how many attacks it will take to bring their target down. When the target drops on the first attack, the best thing the creature can do might actually be to follow through and kill their target outright, instead of moving on to make more attacks against another target.
And straight up, given the proliferation of healing abilities, a highly intelligent combatant -- such as a dragon -- might have a good sense that finishing off a target outright is going to be the best move. Or, the creature might be one of bloodlust, instinct, intimidation, or even might not have the situational awareness to realize their target is dropped. When a flash of three attacks goes out in a six seconds, well, it's possible to see that a combatant might not realize (or care) that the first attack killed their target, since they are so focused on following through. We might imagine this as a "dead before they hit the ground" kind of fatality.
@@DungeonDudes But in general D&D terms, once a creature reaches 0, they're dead. PCs are the only real exception to this, so it doesn't make sense that any creature, no matter how intelligent, would realize they need to keep attacking to kill.
Plus, again, unless the creature is bloodlusted and physically can't stop attacking (which a lot of creatures with multiattacks are supposed to be smarter than), they'd stop once the target is on the ground and move to the next person. In a shootout, you don't shoot one person and then unload the rest of your magazine into their dead body, you move on to the next target.
"And straight up, given the proliferation of healing abilities, a highly intelligent combatant -- such as a dragon -- might have a good sense that finishing off a target outright is going to be the best move." In this same world, resurrection spells exist as early as level 5 (about when you'd actually fight a dragon), so how would focusing all your attacks on one person who could be resurrected be the best option?
And finally, I feel like it's pretty obvious that multiattacks are supposed to be used to attack multiple targets rather than hoping to cheese a kill on one player. If the idea was just "kill a player without anyone having time to react", why not just have the dragon's breath incinerate their body to ashes?
As a cleric in 4E, at first level, Healing Word recovers 1D6 + WIS MOD + player spends a healing surge to recover 1/4 their MaxHP. Base stats aren't limited to max 20. This can be cast twice an encounter and a short rest to recover is 5 minutes. Of course, class powers, feats and magic items can boost this. I really miss D&D.
I think a build can work if you die midway through a campaign and need to make a new character at the same power level as the rest of the party without all the in-between levels.
Honestly, taking this video, and your wizard guide video, it gave me a killer idea for a character. A fire genasi wizard whose goal is to learn wish so he could use it to become a full blooded genie. Basically the plot of inuyasha now that I think about it.
The "one time" that healing spirit comes into play as a valid use of the spell outside of combat... i.e. after EVERY combat.
“Fireball should not be used to soften up the baddies...”
Where were you guys when our lvl 16 party met a lich back in a 3.5 game?
We had a time cleric using time stop at the beginning of the fight(winning initiative), he did some preparations, but had no idea what was coming. After him the lich also cast time stop, thought for a moment, then decided to use his sorcerous power to spam our faces with 6 fireballs...
We were not prepared.. :(
And thus ended a great campaign :)
I’m guilty of being a DM who is terrified of the wish spell.... I’ve never actually seen it used as I’ve never seen anyone get that high of a level, so I actually have no clue how it actually works in play.
@@GoblinUrNuts It isn't always a Monkey's Paw in that situation.
"The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect. Alternatively, you can create one of the following effects of your choice:
You create one object of up to 25,000 gp in value that isn't a magic item. The object can be no more than 300 feet in any dimension, and it appears in an unoccupied space you can see on the ground.
You allow up to twenty creatures that you can see to regain all hit points, and you end all effects on them described in the greater restoration spell.
You grant up to ten creatures that you can see resistance to a damage type you choose.
You grant up to ten creatures you can see immunity to a single spell or other magical effect for 8 hours. For instance, you could make yourself and all your companions immune to a lich's life drain attack.
You undo a single recent event by forcing a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish spell could undo an opponent's successful save, a foe's critical hit, or a friend's failed save. You can force the reroll to be made with advantage or disadvantage, and you can choose whether to use the reroll or the original roll.
You might be able to achieve something beyond the scope of the above examples. State your wish to the DM as precisely as possible. The DM has great latitude in ruling what occurs in such an instance; the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong. This spell might simply fail, the effect you desire might only be partly achieved, or you might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a result of how you worded the wish. For example, wishing that a villain were dead might propel you forward in time to a period when that villain is no longer alive, effectively removing you from the game. Similarly, wishing for a legendary magic item or artifact might instantly transport you to the presence of the item's current owner."
So first of all there are a few other options that don't allow the DM to just screw with you. It's only if you go beyond those examples that the DM can make significant changes to the result you wanted.
Even if you go beyond, it doesn't have to mess with you, it's only more likely to.
@@greenelephant...ofdoom5527
Yup.
Just read the damn spell description, OP. It explains exactly how the thing works:
Duplicates a spell effect of 8th level or lower.
Creates one of a _clearly defined_ list of other effects.
Creates another effect that you must negotiate with the DM over.
IMHO, this idea that Wish breaks campaigns is largely the result of people getting their ideas on how it works from those stupid Reddit/Chan/etc. "D&D stories", most of which are clearly just made up, many by people who have obviously never rolled a d20 in their lives.
Honestly, I would rewrite it entirely to avoid needing to Monkey Paw the spell. Just have it summon a Genie who can create any non-living object the caster asks for, even if they ask for a million gold pieces or a +10 sun sword. No "rewriting reality", killing people, or anything like that, it's a summoning spell, which then creates an object. The Genie will create one object, regardless of cost, or magical power, excluding artifacts like the Eye of Vecna. This makes the spell worth casting, but knocks out some of the bigger problems with the spell. A cool down would also be needed to prevent abuse.
Edit: I should probably say that as "inanimate non-living object" to prevent the creation of undead with the spell.
@@joshuarichardson6529
How is that even remotely sane?
Genie type creatures in d&d almost universally twist and corrupt wishes.
In regards to the Bard with Swift Quiver, back in 3.5 days, I made a Battle Sorcerer who was waiting to get Thunder Lance...but she ended up dying at level 3...Don't wait to make your character great.
I completely agree with the point regarding fireball, but I think that it also shows one of the flaws of 5e and it’s spell system. There aren’t a whole lot of single target damage spells in 5e, and you only really have a handful of low level spells (guiding bolt, witch bolt, chromatic orb), but most of those get quickly overtaken by martial characters, and some of the others (finger of death, disintegrate, etc) come online much later, and still get eclipsed by many martial builds. As much as I love martial characters, my players and I love the concept of a blasty caster who Can alternate between AOE and a bit of single target damage, but this is a concept that can be somewhat hard to achieve, though we’ve homebrewed a few rules, like the concentrated spell metamagic option for sorcerers (no AOE, but double damage to a single target), or a revised Evocation Wizard and our various changes to the Warlock. Another issue that I have with fireball and it being overrated is that it simply does not scale well, in my opinion. It has a wonderful area of effect, but at higher levels, it’s practically inconsequential against certain foes unless you’re fighting certain really weak enemies like goblins or skeletons (talking about late 3rd and 4th tiers of play here). Most spells don’t scale that well when upcast, and over time, martials just overshadow casters for damage. Don’t get me wrong, I definitely think that martials should have a few options for some control and such (grappling hooks, bolos, being able to attack things in the environment to achieve certain effects), but I definitely think that there should be some more options. We’ve homeruled a few things here and there, but I digress. Rant over.
The best blasty caster (for 5e at least) is to just go two levels into Warlock for agonizing blast, and then go ful sorcerer. As long as it makes sense in your setting it works wonders. Martial classes still tend to outdamage you (and even then just a little bit) but the utility you have with your other spells easily makes up for it.
There are two reasons why I don't really mind the fact that blasty mages are underpowered. The first is that simply put, mages are both more versatile than martial classes and better at everything else. Sure, the thief may have a +13 to his Stealth, but the druid casts Pass Without Trace and suddenly the whole party does. The barbarian and the fighter are out-tanked early game by the moon druid and late game by the Polymorph recipient and various conjured creatures. An Open-Hand Monk, Battle Master Fighter, and Ancestral Guardian Barbarian have less combined potential for battlefield control than the character who takes any combination of Sleet Storm, Plant Growth, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, and Wall of Force. And the martial classes have absolutely nothing even remotely comparable to the mage's ability to take care of basic utility crud, or neutering enemy spellcasters. The fact that spellcasters are significantly worse than martial classes at the one thing that martial classes do well is not a problem for me.
And the last point is the second one: enemy blaster mages exist, and unfortunately raw DPS is far more effective against PC's than against badguys. The better my Fireball gets, the easier it is for the enemy archmage to single-handedly cause a TPK.
There are a number of single or limited multi-target spells to use in the intervening levels or ways to improve what exists. Acid arrow deals damage even on a miss and more their turn with a hit. Both being improved by upscaling.
Scorching ray is limited multi that can target that can hit the same target multiple times. Each upcast makes another ray creating a pretty strong attack.
If i looked i could probably find others. Those two are off the top of my head...
Most martials are either burst or concentrated hits so they only look good in quick fights or you don't compare multiple hits others do.
That said, its easier for casters to build different or switch gears like you mentioned.
Well, the thing with Polymorph is that the recipient tends to lose important class abilities, and becoming a beast quickly becomes underpowered, especially against enemies with resistance/immunity to non magical damage. We have a lot of boss fights, so things like Summons and polymorph are not as great for damage/tanking as they are for utility/minion control. As for utility, martial classes tend to have more skills, and skills Can replace certain spells for so many things (why cast knock/heat metal/telekinesis/etc on the door when it can just be lockpicked or broken down?). While they have magical utility, and I definitely think that martials should have more and better control options, I think that there should be a few more options. But I digress, I posted this here to rant more so than to argue. If you want to view things differently, go ahead. This is just my opinion based upon my experiences as a player and a DM.
@@josemontes3438 The whole point of D&D is the have a party of multiple characters each good at different things so that they have to work together. That's why different classes are good at different combinations of DPS, control, healing, utility, and social. If everyone can do everything there is no need to work together and the party system falls apart.
The biggest key point in healing word that was kind of left out...it somewhat solves the whole issue of Heal Bot-s. A player or very often NPC that the DM adds to the party and all they do in their turn is heal cause it takes their action and if they don't, people die.
As both a player and dm in 5e i have killed and been killed many times healing word is not the be all end all
My favourite alternate uses of wish are the ones that fully focus on roleplay. My Profane Soul/Bloodhunter Tiefling used it to contact his devil daddy at level 5 (exactly how he got the spell then is another story) but this led to my favourite RP moment of the campaign, in which I was sent to Hell to have a heart to heart with Asmodeus about the nature of evil
wait, you guys are Canadian? *Subscribes Immediately*
Was it not obvious?
Oh, that's what it is. I thought they were gay, but they are Canadian.
∆ probably not, feel free to ask it to them though .
Fun story about the relative utility of fireball. We have a character in our party who is... fond of fire. She has wreath in flames, fireball, and burning hands. These characters are still low level. We just did an encounter that showed relative utility of these. It was in a (mostly) abandoned township populated by undead. The most continuously useful thing was the wreath in flames - because whenever a zombie would make a save from damage, she'd just stand next to it like an undead bug zapper. Zombie raises, hits the wreath, bzzzt, back down. Save/raise/repeat until it failed a save. Burning hands was more useful than fireball because we were working in small spaces and burning hands can be directed more efficiently and not endanger the party. I think in the entire series of encounters, she used fireball once - in the middle of a collection of 20 undead. Burning hands and wreathed in flame were far more useful, and I think that demonstrates exactly your point - situational instances where fireball is actually going to break the encounter aren't necessarily common.
Also, the zombie-zapper made us all laugh way too hard. Almost as much as when (in a different campaign- different characters) my bard did Otto's Irresistable Dance on a hill giant who kept failing his saves and danced himself basically to death - and if the mental image of a hill giant trying to floss doesn't make you laugh, I can't help you.
Having a DM and a player in the same conversation about healing spells is funny. For example, during the healing word conversation, I half expected Kelly to have a personal anecdote of a fight going badly because of bad use of healing word
Kelly is also a DM in other campaigns off-screen, and he has had Monty as a player in at least one of them.
I've never taken the time to thank the Dungeon Dudes for only using pre-roll ads for their 15-30 minute videos.
Before i watch this video:
Fireballs one of them, right?
I'd say I use Fireball in good ways, we we in a village under attack by a warband of Berserkers, 30 of them all clumped in a circle on their way to raid and pillage. As we were riding up to meet the enemy in battle I cast a Fireball into the center of the group, only nine succeeded the saving throw, the rest took 33 damage off the bat. I rolled highest initiative, threw another Fireball into the crowd, of the 21 who took the full 33 before, only two survived. Then a Cone of Cold from the next in line practically wiped the survivors.
Their turn between the Fireball and Cone was spent chumping our Dwarf NPC allies and killing them.
Just for added insult, the Druid ran them over with a Flaming Sphere.
The Blood Hunter looked at the three of us really sad because he didn't get to do anything.
@Lance Clemings Berserkers? No. Their only thing besides their Greataxe is Reckless Attack. They also only have +1 to dex saves. When your DC is 16, you're frying a lot of boys.
Polymorph gets so much hype I kept waiting for it to make the list
half of all my characters have died in 5E. each time either i was the healer or our healer missed the session. the last time my lvl 3 cleric got downed by a black pudding and the second one that was created by the fighter's thrown hand axe crit'ed me and killed me outright. RIP.
You guys must not play with a lot of paladins in the group. Healing word is strong. One of the mechanics I dislike are the instant getting up without penalty to do a full round of attacks.
I do agree with you that healing spirit is overrated. I don't find it overrated at all.
- Innkeeper Vase Odin
Let's put it to level 6 same as heal which does 70 healing rolling
Healing 1 target for only 5 rounds at lv.6 with healing spirit rolling average, with no modifier can heal 105
It's terrifyingly effective if planned right
@AmishRiot you're right. That is what I meant.
@TwistedTentacleInn
seeing that alot of folks have the same complaint as you, my personal solution is using the DMG Combat Option, Lingering Injuries table on page 272. Whenever a PC hits 0 they roll for something that could very well be detrimental, especially in combat, such as losing a hand or an eye or gaining a serious internal injury all until the next Regeneration spell. This always encourages players to be very careful on the possibility of them reaching 0 in combat, especially upon a reoccurring 0.
@@jakegray1723 that's a great idea!
7:16 If you set up a healing spirit can your enemies use that to heal themself too? If so that actually makes it a lot less advantageous in combat
This is, without a doubt, the best D&D channel on TH-cam. Every opinion you guys have is well-reasoned and totally valid. I'm a huge fan, please keep the quality content coming!
Great video! I am a wizard! (fave class) and I love fireball but you're right on. Also, when you save it for those moments that tend to see it used more efficiently, it also makes the use of it more dramatic. That's a part of what you're after. It is very good for clearing out minions and finishing off an enemy just like you stated. It is handy though if you can get it fired off in an encounter when a set of enemies may be bunched closer together. And especially if you can tie it in with what the rest of the party will do. In other words when it ties in with tactics at the party level versus individual player level. Not all groups develop that.
Holy amazing beards of awesome times two, Batman! I approve of this beard epicness. Also, great video!
My rule for casting Wish as a sorcerer: Try to use it every day as soon as an opportunity arises (good uses are Mind Blank or Glibness) and at the end of the day if you didn't, use it to cast Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion
Someone::Player death is really rare in 5E
Me, on 2 hp after the first session because we got attacked by goblins: exists
One of m friends, a paladin fully capable of healing me: *runs me over with a wagon*
I've made different posts and comments in regards to "Healing Spirit" being overrated and I'm glad to see other people making public notes as such after the initial outcry of some in the community and it's good for the game and the spell to get other sides of the argument like these videos presented, instead of hyperbolic statements. Healing Spirit often gets compared to Prayer of Healing in stating how it's overpowered. The thing is, no one's saying that Prayer of Healing is just as good as Healing Spirit. They're saying Healing Spirit is a good spell and often worth taking but not always worth casting over a Short Rest. Prayer of Healing is just a BAD spell. Comparing a Good spell to a Bad spell ... yeah, the bad one looks bad. But if you've got 10 minutes of downtime to Prayer of Healing, you VERY often (not always) have time to just take the Short Rest instead. In the end, thank you for being another voice of reason to some of the spells instead of relying on hyperbole and armchair math.
Bloody cowards as soon as I get 17th level I am wasting no time in making my wish.
Our DM has decided (along with the rest of us) that Healing Spirit is broken our of combat so when it is cast out of combat you get 4d6 healing instead, this will go up slightly as we level but it makes it a quick heal and tides you over until a proper rest
You wish for a simulacrum and then use your simulacrum to make crazy wishes for you.
Seraphimnoted except that’s the trap of Wishing for a Simulacrum. It copies you at the moment of the wish, meaning it wouldn’t have the 9th level spellslot.
Amazing Metapanda nowhere in the spell does it say that.
Seraphimnoted Simulacrum duplicates you at the moment of casting. If you don’t have your 7th, 8th, or 9th level spellslot (depending on how you cast Simulacrum), then neither would the duplicate. That’s why it’s better to just take the 12 hours. At 20th, it isn’t as bad since you can get epic boons to get around this a little.
Amazing Metapanda well that’s terrible. I looked it up and that really changes how useful spell actually is. Well you cast creation until you have an arbitrary amount of ruby and then you can get 2 simulacrum who can each use wish for you (you make the first one with a 7th level spell slot and then that one casts simulacrum with an 8th level spell slot) so 2 consequence free wishes every 24 hours
@@riddick1128 "Using any material created by this spell as another spell’s material component causes that spell to fail." - From the Creation Spell. The best way to get the ruby dust is to use the True Polymorph aspect of creature into object, but other than that... yeah, that's how you start a Simulacrum-Wish chain unless your DM is playing with Adventure League Rules.
The healing spells become much more powerful when using variant rest rules (short rest=8 hrs, long rest=1 week)
...But otherwise, I agree with the analysis here. :) keep doing what you’re doing!
Nice 1984 shirt
My house rules to help the curb the power of these spells:
- Healing word, "Near Death Fatigue" = Going down to 0 HP causes 1 level of exhaustion. Limits the wack-a-mole character.
- Healing Spirit, see Jeremy Crawford twitter's fix to only allow x2 Spellcasting Mod times of healing before spell ends.
- Fireball, must fill all spaces of the spell (ish), use dm discretion. So if cast in a confined area the fire will blast down a narrow hallway (both ways) and can cook friends. Remember 20' radius means height too.
Like 31. Great analysis dungeon dudes. Thank you.
It's fun to try and figure out how to make heat metal apply even with targets that aren't wielding/wearing metal. One time I was able to use it by enlarging a pair of manacles, slipping it over the wrist of an enemy, then dropping concentration on enlarge reduce to tighten it on the wrist. It took a bit of set up but was able to cast heat metal next turn.
Yeah, stopped watching at the point where you think it's "immersion-breaking" for monsters not to focus all of their multi-attacks on the person who's down on the ground. No, using up attacks on downed creatures is the thing that is immersion-breaking. Amazingly enough, my PCs almost *never* use up their extra attacks on enemies who are down unless they think the creature is regenerating or is otherwise going to be healed. So, until the monsters see that this is a possibility, it's tactically disadvantageous (even at an animal level) for them to go around beating up downed PCs to ensure that they're dead if there are still other threats still close to them. Most monsters and NPCs, just like the PCs, don't want to die. They would rather make sure all threats are neutralized before making sure all neutralized threats are dead.
Now, if an intelligent monster/NPC drops a PC and then sees that PC get healed/regenerate and become a threat again, doing this kind of Coup de Grace is fair game, because that's the exact same strategy the PCs would use. In this situation, I'd actually argue that the creature with animal intelligence would be the one that wouldn't learn from their mistakes to attack the downed PC. And unless the monsters are familiar with the PCs, they wouldn't necessarily assume the PCs had healing, which may be common for PCs, but isn't the norm for all adventures/mercenaries (how much healing does a goblin or orc tribe have?).
On a side note, if animal-intelligence monsters are more likely to use lethal attacks on PCs, that makes them that much more of a hassle for PCs to fight animals: They already tend to have little to no treasure, and now they're out to kill the PCs with no regard for their own lives as well?
For a dragon, it kinda makes sense for them to realize that a Cleric will probably heal the downed guy. But, yeah, for a bear or something? No friggin way is it gonna keep fighting the unconscious dude if there's 3 other people trying to kill it.
Also thematically a round is 6 seconds. in that time thee are multiple attackers. it make some sense for a dragon,l lets say, to tail swipe someone attacking from behind or try to fend off multiple targets in front of it with each claw. Not for it to have blinders and down one then then another. Instincts usually side with fending off the immediate threats, and not neutralizing it. Making sure the target is down(focus fire), is literally something that is trained for not innate.
I think the problem with Wish mostly comes from the ability not cast it ever again. Imagine reaching the point where you can cast 9th level spells and learn the most powerful spell a mage can learn only to lose the ability to use it forever due to an unlucky roll. Its the same problem I have with Wild Magic Sorcerers. In a game that has many aspects determined by random chance, the two things I want to have absolute control over are my character and their abilities. I can't speak for anyone else, but it rarely feels good to be told that some aspect of character is not under my direct ability to control or change.
So many mental gymnastics to talk about healing word lmao.
22:54 Is that true if you use something like a ring of spell storing?
Dragon? Dude, unless you throw a freaking "heal" on the warrior, he's still going down in one turn.
Your 1d4+5 heal can easily soak up another 50 damage in overkill, and if he goes down, just cast it again.
Not only that, but an extra round from a fighter is INSANE.
Let's sum up what healing word ACTUALLY does.
lvl1, bonus action.
Heal anywhere between 10 and 50 hp.
Make 4 attack rolls for say 1d12+6 = 50 damage.
And I can't even tell you how often my healing words have healed more in battle than my healing touch.
So yeah, I agree that it's better to use a 6th level spell, but the fact that we even need to compare it to a 6th level spell really says it all in my opinion.
And my gift of the everliving ones warlock bard will disagree on the OPness of healing spirit.
Simulacrum can be used to cast wish without the negative side effects.
Also, "I wish that any wish I cast goes into effect the way I imagine it will, without risk or chance of me never being able to cast it again, including this wish".
50 damage in overkill? So, if that happens and he goes down, you aren't casting it again because he's been hit twice at 0 HP and is dead.
The scenario you're describing also assumes that the healer goes in between the dying guy and the big damage dealer, the big damage dealer has no legendary actions, there are no minions, and there are no sources of aoe damage.
Also, there's quite a few loopholes in the wish description you gave, mostly due to a weird and clunky sentence structure. The most blatant one is that as written, the "it" in "without risk or chance... able to cast it again" appears to be referring to specifically the wish that is being cast in the moment. Ergo if you wish for a jar of peanut butter there will be no risk of never wishing for a jar of peanut butter again but there may be a risk of never wishing for anything else.
The DM could also make the character make some kind of check (probably Wisdom or their spellcasting stat) to see what their confidence level is that the initial wish will in fact work. If they fail the check, then they aren't confident which implies that they imagine there's a chance for said wish to fail.
@@brifox I am assuming no minions yes, I am not saying it makes you immortal. If you're down, and you have a big damage dealer as well as minions going at you, you're pretty much fucked in nearly any scenario.
Even then, healing word gives the person a chance to get away. Are there higher level spells that are better? Sure, but the very fact that we need to compare it to higher level spells proves the point.
If the person is just being targeted by a single creature, then by definition you will go before it goes.
Wish could probably be specified more perfectly sure, but I wrote that down in 30 seconds, if I had wish, I could take an entire week or more to iron out the kinks.
DutchDread I cannot agree more regarding Healing Word. Worst case scenario is you soak a bunch of damage. Middling case you buy a turn for a bunch of attacks or a spell with just your bonus action. Best case scenario the tank gets the chance to regain some real HP and is fully back in the fight.
You do know that there are low level dragons right? Like, young dragons? CR 6 with multi attack. A life domain cleric at level 6 can use Healing Word at 3rd level. Thats a max of 22 health. That is less than one bite attack's max damage. Depending on turn order (say cleric goes last and dragon is first) the tank is healed and knocked back down/killed before it can attack. It isn't game breaking, but it is a great spell.
For the wish thing "The spell might simply fail."
There really isn't any way to avoid the downsides unless your DM is being absurdly nice to you.
Healing Word is more for keeping the party alive in a consistent way; expending a bonus action to keep a party member in the fight a little longer so the healer can get closer and fully heal them on the next turn.
Healing Spirit is definitely situational but looking at the rules, it being concentration, a Circle of the Moon Druid could, with a little work and careful management of their movement, give themselves an extra "shield" against damage that keeps them in their Wild Shape longer without having to expend any more spell slots. As long as they can keep their concentration.
Fireball is the perfect room clearer; also great if your Rogue and/or Monk is in danger as they can dodge through Evasion reasonably early on. It can clear the area around them and let them get out of the jam they were in.
Swift Quiver definitely comes in late enough that it never is going to break the game. But it does work as a great perk to help deal a little extra damage for a Ranger whose playstyle has allowed for that kind of spell to slot in nicely.
Wish...the bit that catches my attention is always "The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect." There is no limitations written outside of it being 8th level or lower, so your Wizard or Sorcerer or even Bard with this spell could cast ANYTHING as long as it's 8th level or lower. And likely counts as being cast as a 9th level spell. The whole other thing is much too asking for DM interpretation for something that may or may not work. That part of the spell should be saved for when you REALLY need it. I like the basic use over most of the fancier things so it being talked about being a "game breaker" confused me.
"Healing word is a low level spell that is used to heal without cause someone to get a healing duty"
"Healing word is overrated because in high level games it really doesn't do much"
- Wow, just wow. Its almost like you guys forgot what you said just before. Ofc healing word is not good while fighting a dragon. Its like expecting that magic missile to be good while fighting a Lich.
nailed it
You're the one who didn't listen. They said these spells are _overrated._ Not bad. They're good spells, but are seen as even better than they actually are.
I saw the argument for healing spirit. In moments when time is of the essence in earlier levels play, that 10d6 isn't in 10 minutes, it's in 1 minute, with active perception checks. Just 1 minute of conga line versus an hour. Short Rests do have their place, but 10d6 worth of healing to an unlimited amount of characters in one minutes has it's place too.
Heck in a war setting I could see this kind of powerful overbearing level of healing can turn human wave tactics into a more viable strategy because all it takes us 1 minute of strange rotating formations for that particular force to be refreshed. Soldiers that had no chance to dive back in during this combat, because those few precious un-renewable cleric or Druid slots are being reserved for powerful potent magic or stray attacks hitting a commander now have a very powerful tool to mitigate the carnage. You could base an entire campaign on how healing spirit allowed people to rule a continent with odd, but effective shield wall rotations and in battle healing stations.
Wish is a downtime spell.
Well any spell of 8th level or lower, without having it prepared, or needing any casting time or components is a pretty good "get out of jail free card" when the party gets in a sticky situation...
I thought it was just there to cast Simulacrum while ignoring the 12 hours cast time and 1500g material cost. Was there another use for it? Lol
Fireball, i don't use it often. But when we got hired out to decimate a Gnoll warband i had it prepared. Once we were engaged and we gained full awareness of the Horde we faced. It became apparent that i would be casting it every turn of this combat.
Yeah...i'm not gonna play under a GM who will just slam 4 almost-sure-to-hit, high-damage attacks on one character, because it's "realistic like that". It's the middle ages. Dying from tetanus after getting bitten by a rat is realistic, doesn't mean it's fun.
If you purposefully deal 100+ damage in one turn to a player character who is already injured, that just tells me you are playing against your players and actively trying to kill their characters.
and that's....bad?
@@Jonnycrust5 I guess that depends on what kind of game you play. If you purposely want to give your players a grueling challenge, I guess it works, but I feel like a DM should not be actively out for the party's blood. Because let's be honest here, if a DM wants the party dead, there's a million ways they can do it, and the party won't be able to do anything about it.
@@Jonnycrust5 Yeah, it's bad if the GM hates the characters so much he wants to murder them every step of the way
if the DM really wanted to murder the players, Zeus would just kill the players. It mostly depends on the NPC\creature. how would they act. is the npc an assassin that is confirming the kill? is the animal feral or bloodthirsty? who really cares about death anyway? you either roll up a new character if you die at a lower level, or you have enough money for the resurrection cost.
@@Jonnycrust5 Well, some people actually get invested in the roleplaying aspect of the game and not just rolling the highest damage number.
So yeah, i do care if my low-lv character gets roflstomped, because the GM thought it would be realistic to attack somebody 5 times who has 5 hp left.
I watched this video way back and I have some more clear opinions on those:
1. Indeed - Some classes even get ranged bonus action healing as a class feature, such as the Circle of Dreams Druid or the Celestial Patron Warlock. Also, spells like Spike Growth dealing damage at the start of the creature's turn notably hinder the effectiveness of yoyo healing without upcasting.
2. Recently there's been an Errata that the spirit can only heal 1 + casting modifier of times before disappearing. Some DMs really do like having attrition in their encounter days, so a spell that fully heals the party in a minute can be disruptive if there's ever a lengthier encounter day - on top of making Prayer of Healing grandly outclassed.
3. At the end of the day, it's just damage. If you didn't take anything out with that spell, you didn't really meaningfully alter the flow of battle. Also consider that at mid-/high levels, enemies tend to have way too many HP for Fireball to effectively decimate them. Casting multiple in a battle can help but may leave you too dry on spells for later.
4. It's amazing how much damage you could get if instead you just took two levels of Hexblade Warlock. At Level 11 that's three attacks with no resources expended (though you can amp up the damage with Hexblade's Curse or the Hex Spell) and you still have a bonus action for things like Healing Word or Bardic Inspiration.
5. In Wish's defense, duplicating spells is a completely safe and very viable way of using the spell, especially since you bypass long casting times and/or expensive components. Even without chaining, getting a Simulacrum on tap is a powerful move and it's also nice to have access to spells like Resurrection. That said I feel you can do a lot more shenanigans using Shapechange/True Polymorph.
Healing word is bad because every DM wants to kill their player and Healing word can prevent that... didn't expect that from you, guys
You missed their points, ill summarize them for you.
Healing word isn't bad, it's good, even, just not gamebreaking. It especially falls off in utility at higher levels.
It's greatest disadvantage is that it heals so little. If you res a level 8 fighter to 7 hp, against something with multi attack, the first attack will knock the fighter back down, the second is an auto-crit that makes him fail 2 death saves, and the third, if the creature has a third, will kill him. Not knock unconscious, kill.
Will B in that case though wouldn’t he just kill the character outright with the multi attacks in the beginning???
ChuckNormis218 Well odds are your fighter didn’t go into the fight with 6 hp.
@@Takapon218 As allen pointed out, its rare that your fighter starts an enemy turn with 7 health. Its when using Healing Word to bring back a downed party member mid-fight where you have to be careful, and why its not as good as lots of people claim it is.
people saying these spells (or any spells really) are outright broken is silly to me. I haven't come accross any i would consider broken. if you have a group of PC's that manage to come up with a tactics that use these spells to their fullest potential.. that's just good strategy and makes for awesome RP.
"How dare these players use their resources to their fullest!" is what it sounds like to me when I hear complaints about these spells.