Why cyclists should NOT get the same fines as motorists | Car Culture 6 - Motonormativity
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ค. 2024
- Police love their performative safety blitzes, and recently they chose the Kurilpa Bridge in Brisbane. Ideal location - with a ridiculous 10km/hr speed limit making it easy pickings for a few clickbait soundbites for 7 News.
But the problem stems back almost a decade, when the Queensland Government stupidly decided that traffic infringements on a bicycle should attract the same fine as for a motorist.
Cyclists who were caught doing 22km/hr at the bottom of the Kurilpa Bridge were getting $464 fines - the same as a driver travelling at 59km/hr in a school zone...
It's a crazy symptom of car culture, of motonormativity - car brain - that makes us think "well if I get this punishment in my car, then you should get the same punishment on your bicycle". Motonormativity means we have an in-built acceptance of risks and harms from motor vehicles, but we don't have that same tolerance in other areas.
The classic example is the moral panic over cyclists and e-scooters on shared paths, and characterising it as some mortal threat to life and limb of pedestrians. While there is of course a risk of collision between bikes and pedestrians, the reality is 140+ people die every year on Australian roads hit with motor vehicles, and many thousands are injured.
Don't fall for the "dangerous shared path" clickbait stories - the real threat comes from motor vehicles driven by people suffering from motonormativity...
Write to Mark Bailey and ask him to have the Kurilpa Bridge speed limit removed, and to reinstate lower penalties for cyclists and personal mobility device users:
www.parliament.qld.gov.au/Mem...
It’s amazing to me that police spend so much time and resources enforcing nonsense speed limits against cyclists when they can’t even be bothered to enforce the 1 m passing zone when giving clear evidence handed to them on a silver platter.
I hear ya. I don't even bother reporting anymore. I've just got standing orders in the event I get hit by a car that people must absolutely politicise the hell out of it.
My bad, mate- I didn't realise that they are model laws, adapted to each state- I was honestly more concerned with the rules around E-bikes, as an E-bike builder.
I raised this with QPS today and was advised that certain police officers decide to exercise their discretion and not investigate incidents against cyclists.
@@KOMKirkthat is the root of the problem - the QPS personnel can exercise their bias and prejudices when enforcing laws.
This whole thing was what was especially ridiculous about the e-mobility laws. They made a big deal out of “we making the penalties the same as for cars” - because apparently holding your phone while riding a 20 kg scooter at 25 km/h is the same as using your phone, being distracted while driving of a 2000 kg hunk of metal going 60, 80, 100 or more kilometres per hour? Absolutely ridiculous!
The trouble with high cycling fines is that they become an incentive for police to target cyclists as a very easy revenue source. Blitzes on cyclists didn’t exist before the fines were raised. Or rather, that’s just one of the problems. Great video!
100%. And I'm told the blitzes are justified by "complaints". Well let's test that and start making complaints about dangerous driving everywhere...
Mark Bailey (Queensland Transport Minister has been recorded on HIS Strava breaking this speed limit on the Kurilpa Bridge with Marco te Brömmelstroet. I'm certain neither would have done these speeds if they thought it created a safety issue but they most certainly did break this speed limit despite Mark's protestations that Strava isn't accurate.
This isn't a "gotcha" in terms of Mark is a law breaker but just a way of highlighting that the "limit" in fact does not make sense.
The main criticism of Mark is that despite his decade as the Transport Minister in this state and his own claim to be the "best ever Transport Minster for cycling in Queensland", he has not taken on ANY of the legislative recommendations in the "A new direction for cycling in Queensland" 2013 and improved any traffic laws or otherwise with respect to cycling.
The only legislation of note that I recall in this time is the regressive legislation around e-mobility devices which penalise legitimate use and fail to really address the few issues with these devices.
Mark also sticks doggedly to his beliefs that Mandatory Helmet Laws are necessary despite plenty of legitimate criticism and research into the matter BUT proudly proclaimed that Queenslanders should be able to have the choice to protect themselves when they removed masked mandates during the middle of a Covid surge.
Mark, I don't dislike you as a person, just DO the things necessary to REALLY improve cycling in Queensland.
You have plenty of good people in your Department who can tell you what they are. Go ask them and let them speak honestly.
Try listening.
And stop blocking people with valid criticisms like these on Social Media.
The thing about that extremely rare case when a cyclist-pedestrian crash does result in a death is that it is guaranteed to be front page news, probably nationwide. Pundits will be talking about it for weeks and social media trolls will be bringing it up years later. Demands for crack downs, new laws, harsher penalties.
The car crash that kills a pedestrian? That will be local news if you're lucky and forgotten about a day later. Dismissed as a tragic but unavoidable fact of life.
Yep, classic motonormativity areas.
I agree one hundred percent with the comments made on this video. I worked for TMR for 25 years and most of that time dealing with road rules amendments. I was involved with the implementation of the results of the bicycle rules review. The whole effort was influenced by bike hating officers who could only see the change as being 'making it all equal'. It never was equal... and was a complete travesty of justice for cyclists. I too call upon Mark Bailey to revisit those stupid 'equal' penalties and make it fair for cyclists.
Great video Chris. The moment television news media is there to film "enforcement activities" there should be a law that makes those fines invalid due to the bias it creates.
Absolutely. Especially when the blitz is accompanied by a ministerial press release....
We have the same issues in Toronto, to the point where police setup road blocks to specifically stop people on bikes, it's ridiculous that these types of speed limits are put on bike paths, meanwhile drivers can drive at whatever speed they want with zero consequences literally killing people and getting a slap on the wrist. Just plain stupid.
Thank you for this 19 minutes of sanity. Cyclists and scooter riders are easy pickings for an indolent and myopic police force.
This is why I don’t carry anything that can identify myself while cycling. If they can stop me they can spend the rest of the day trying to work out who I am.
Oh we’re obsessed with 10 kph signs in Sydney too! I’m normally one of the slowest in shared zones and of course I’m going above 10 kph because I don’t want my bike to fall over.
The people who design these limits must know how silly it is; I guess they just want to maintain the feeling that using active transport in a safe and reasonable way is somehow “wrong”.
Don’t even get me started about excessive use of “cyclist dismount” signs in the middle of popular bicycle routes!
Thank you so much Chris Cox for saying what you have said. I've always have all the same thoughts about the stupid enforcement by QLD police and the stupid speed limit rules, but struggled to put them in words. You nailed it in the head. The rules need to change. QLD govt should be encouraging more people to use active transport. They're currently doing the opposite.
Another great video.
Cyclists are seen as the real menace where I live too. New, massive wide roads built in 30mph zones, yet the only measures put in to reduce speeds are bollards and kerbs on the disconnected cycle paths that accompany these roads.
My local town had a public consultation on banning vehicles from the centre. The results overwhelmingly favoured the ban. However, some councillors have pushed back saying what about the 'menacing' cyclists?
In other news, our PM has vowed to end the 'war on the motorist', whatever that means. Oh yes, elections are coming up soon.
Yeah I have seen what Sunak has been saying. What a nutter! Hope he gets summarily dispatched at the election
Imagine thinking speed limits are about safety and not revenue...
Speed limits for motor vehicles are about safety. The enforcement approach it can be argued is about revenue.
But since road safety education basically ends at "congratulations 17 year old, you passed this rudimentary test of your basic competence to operate a motor vehicle, go forth and drive with impunity", most drivers have a really poor understanding of speed and its consequences for driving safely in different environments. As such the only "education" most people get is exceed limit, get fine. Which leads people to believe as long as they are driving under the limit they are driving "safely".
Far too much conflation of speeding and driving too fast.
Maybe some more reseach on how European countires such as Denmark and the Netherlands handle shared paths could be of assistance. Politicians love problems with solutions you bring to them.
It's not a lack of awareness issue, believe me. It's an Australian exceptionalism issue.
Chris nails it - this is one of those many places where we’ve decided we need a special law or regulation, and the rest of the world proves no, you just don’t need it at all. The solution is to just stop it with the silly ‘speed limits for bikes’ - it doesn’t make anyone safer.
Thank you for an amazing video! Keep it up mate
Absolutely fantastic video! Love your work 👌
Thanks so much 😊
If a bridge is dangerous for cyclists travelling faster than 10km/h, it means they designed it wrong. In our country, in such cases, they don't put a limit, but a "cyclist dismount your bike" sign, which everyone ignores, including grandmothers going shopping.
Police harassment doesn't help safety, proper road design is important!
Yes, and there's nothing remotely unsafe about this bridge. A government department that has no idea how to manage transport infrastructure, combined with police that like cheap and sensationalist blitzes. Bad combination.
and motor vehicles stink, really, really stink. They should be fined heavily or banned (like indoor smoking was) just for doing that to us on a daily basis.
QPS could spend 10mins a day doing an undercover ride down the bicentennial bikeway and pickup a handful of illegal e-bikes and scooters and actually do something to improve safety.
10km/hr makes no sense on that bridge unless it happened to be jammed full of people for some reason. The hazard would be that I'd disregard such absurd instruction, such as dismounting my bicycle to cross a road. And copping a $450 fine, absurd. That's simply hostile to active transport, point well made.
Absolutely. And if it is chockers, like the Goodwill is during park run, you just go slow anyway. Unlike in a car you don't feel like you can plough on with impunity. It's unnecessary, and the enforcement is jackboot style bullshit.
@@ChrisCoxCycling If it's anything like Sandgate foreshore, it's likely due to some vocal complaints that a pedestrian "felt threatened" once. What we're up against is frail elderly pedestrian out for a stroll with their walker. Is the path for them too? In Sandgate they think they own the place (and mostly they do), but Southbank too?
Excellent video. I am happy to say that as far as I am aware there is no requirement for cyclists to adhere to speed limits in the UK. I also agree with you regarding punishing dangerous or reckless cycling, common sense should prevail over arbitrary rules.
Those fines as described can't be enforceable because a bicycle doesn't have a speedo. In addition, that's a stupidly low speed limit and it's odd that it exists.
Besides, why would anyone, on a bicycle, stop for the police? They're pretty easy to avoid in these so called blitzes.
I certainly think these fines could be successfully challenged in court. However, most people are not prepared to go to the stress and usually expense of doing so. Similarly, people would rather not antagonise little boys with guns and badges by trying to run away from them. Police know that most people are obedient little citizens so these blitzes serve their interests well.
@@ChrisCoxCycling They can definitely be challenged, and successfully too, and many won't make it to court.
I know exactly five people that have been booked for speeding on a bicycle, that have challenged it and three didn't get to court, and two were defeated in court.
They were very different scenarios though, to your described 10kmh limit and all happened long ago, and all in NSW, so every case is different.
@@petergibson7287 It would be good if people in the know could help the people who were given these fines.
Common sense seems to have prevailed - the limit is now 20 crossing the shared bridge to George street.
Might be an idea if the QPS spent less time apprehending active transport users and maybe a bit more time concentrating on 'actual' law breakers. You know, like youth crime currently plaguing our suburbs. Be a worthy notion too if The Dept of Energy and Public works employs people who actually know something about bicycles and active transport if they are going to be in charge of the supporting infrastructure.
Do the police also fine joggers, skaters and skate boarders for breaching the 10kmh limit?
If not, the whole thing is discriminatory, so another reason it can't be enforced.
Nope. No fines apply for pedestrians exceeding the limit, or wheeled recreational devices that are not powered.
Also oddly, fines for e-scooters, the source of all the moral panic, are significantly LESS than for bicycles.
@@ChrisCoxCycling and here’s the double standard.
@@Brausmith exactly and precisely.
10 km/h limit? LOL, I can jog faster than that with a cigarette in one hand and a beer in the other.
Exactly. And you wouldn't risk a fine (well, maybe for the beer if the police wanted to be dicks about it...)
I really don’t understand how kurilpa is 10kph but goodwill is 20kph. Goodwill at 5 in the arvo is waaaay more busy
Absolutely agree with everything except the notion that cyclists shouldn't have bells at 16:43. They shouldn't have to be necessary but the majority of the riders native to roads I encounter on shared paths who overtake me (on my mountain bike) and pedestrians aren't in the habit of yelling "passing!", and don't have a bell, so most don't give any warning when overtaking :/
I don't mind not having a warning so long as it's with plenty of space.
Support this man in fighting big Carma, please.
they keep running the new metro bus up and down saying its a trial and without taking any passengers and using alot of taxpayer money to deliver nothing... so given this fact do you think theres a chance they would have the common sense to fix your problem?
Well, Metro is Council, this is a State Government issue, but I take your point. Common sense and government bureaucracy aren't natural bedfellows.
Good news! Today, I notice the speed limit was changed back to 20 km/hr! Now sure when it happend.
Oh I do, and there's a video in the works as a sequel to this one ;-) Make sure you subscribe so you don't miss it!
Down here in Victoria there's a short section with a 5 km/h limit on my commute which I laugh at every time. I always attempt to keep to it as it's good balancing practice!
I don't think VicPolice care and I'm pretty sure there's a legal precedent regarding no speedos in our courts (there was an outrage story about it), but it's clear nobody who rides a bike sets these limits.
I have a speedo on my bike, but it's not calibrated like a car's so who knows where that leaves me.
Btw, $464 is more expensive than my entire bicycle bought brand new which would make it the driver equivalent of $20,000 to $30,000. Ridiculous!
Exactly right. Not just in terms of risk, but economically inequitable. One of the main targets are fast food delivery riders, who are often international students with very limited means. A $464 fine is a massive hit for them. It's just wrong on every level.
@@ChrisCoxCycling and they aren't ever going to pay that fine.
Every so often I read about the government of whatever state whine about massive revenue shortfalls because fines are unpaid. Most are car related, but then there's the bicycle ones, and they are largely for not wearing a helmet, and riding somewhere they shouldn't, such as a footpath.
Upon reading between the lines it's clear that the dopey police are issuing these fines to tourists and other transients who don't give a fark and are never going to pay a fine for doing something that they don't see as being illegal.
Yep. Honestly, I wouldn't blame people for giving a fake name and address if pulled up. "Sorry, I left my wallet at home and don't have ID, but my name is Phil McCracken and I live at 69 Yourmums Place".
VicPol have been known to get out and fine riders on Southbank, which, whilst I understand why (it's super busy on weekends with clueless pedestrians), there's no safe alternative for the Capital City Trail through the city there. Needless to say if it ever happens to me (and it shouldn't, because it's really worth avoiding if at all possible on weekends anyway), I'll be contesting it in court for sure.
@@ChrisCoxCycling Even if a person gave their true name it's meaningless if they don't live here. And they can't force anyone to have id; this isn't USSR and it's not 1984.
Someone needs to tell Victoria Police urgently! They semi-often get out at fine cyclists along Melbourne's Southbank. Wouldn't be such a problem if the busy riverside strip wasn't also the Capital City Trail...
Sounds like something to take up with the new minister for active transport
To be fair Chris, the reporting rate for pedestrian - cyclist incidents will be far lower than that of pedestrian - car incidents. This would be cause of the worse outcomes for pedestrian comparatively (as was the point you made).
Yeah, I would say the vast majority of incidents are "near misses" rather than actual collisions. But it's also a bit of car brain at play - bicycle goes past and people freak out that it was fast and close. Walk on a kerbside footpath with B doubles whizzing by at 60kph, nobody complains...
So glad I pay such high tax to fund the roads I don't use, and fund the police that are only out to fine us instead of doing anything about the youth crime epidemic. Good one Australia
"landlord crime epidemic" ;-)
There’s no youth crime epidemic, that is something touted by the media. Chronic offenders have worsened but there are not more youth criminals.
Here is one instance where I am glad to live in the US 🤣 WTF?? I'd fight it!!
I find it interesting that the fines for PMDs (i.e. e-scooters) are an order of magnitude lower than for cyclists in Queensland. So it's $154 for exceeding the speed limit by less than 14km/hr, and $232 for 14-20km/hr. Where for a bicycle that's $309-464. The truly bizarre bit is when you realise the bicycle speeding fines apply to both bicycles and e-bikes, but not e-scooters.
I believe this is because there's a greater restriction in where you should be riding e-scooters (largely ignored and not enforced) but that situation is plainly ridiculous. Mind you - except for the dingbats who do 60km/hr+ on our bikeways on e-scooters (surprisingly common) the PMD riders are clearly not the enemy. So I hesitate to point this out because it'll just make their fines more expensive, not ours cheaper!
Yeah I agree. Escooters aren't the enemy, they're another ally fighting to reclaim our street space back from cars instead of arguing over the scraps as pedestrians and cyclists have done for decades.
@@Brausmith I think the idea is that legally PMDs are only permitted on bikeways, footpaths and a small number of roads, whereas you can ride a bike almost anywhere. I don't think they consider them 'lower risk' as a device; just that the situations where they can legally be used are generally lower risk.
All bets are off the table when you can find youtube footage of PMDs merging onto a highway at 80km/hr+ but I suppose the fines for riding an unregistered motorcycle then come into play! Having said that, they're a small minority and I agree with Chris in that we should not be fighting over the scraps left by motorists because we'll both lose.
How can you access the map of pedestrian crash data you showed for Brisbane? I think it would be helpful when writing to our MPs.
I downloaded the crash history from the Qld gov web site. Then used Excel to filter down to suburbs and where number of pedestrians involved was not 0. Then imported the resulting filtered CSV into Google My Maps.
www.data.qld.gov.au/dataset/crash-data-from-queensland-roads/resource/e88943c0-5968-4972-a15f-38e120d72ec0
Interestingly, mate, the Federal road rules say that the speed limit for bicycles is 40km/h, and, as in all cases where State & Federal law contradict each other, Federal law always wins.
Also, the law about E-bikes, (we use En19154, I think), says that they may not be assisted beyond 25km/h, not that this is the speed limit for E-bikes.
Just thought you'd find this interesting, Chris. Great video, keep 'em coming, mate.
I just checked Section 51 (seriously) - the Federal Government doesn’t have constitutional power over anything to do with cycling or roads in general, so no, that’s not how it works. They could regulate cycling on Commonwealth land like military bases, possibly the airports that are on Commonwealth land, etc. but not anywhere else, where it’s exclusively a State Government responsibility.
go softly, can we trial a 15 Kph speed limit..........
No.
There should be nothing but an advisory speed. But failing that, at least bringing it in line with the Goodwill at 20kph is reasonable.
15? No.
10:25 Chris, you’ve clearly got NO IDEA about a libertarian mindset: A libertarian would look at this whole thing and see unreasonable over governance that is impinging on people’s rights.
If Campbell Newman is a libertarian then you’re a promoter of driving.
Oh dear, triggered a libertarian...