Mackie is a heavyweight in the field, and this video is old now, and maybe he's constrained here by the format, but his discussion is disappointing in some aspects. First, I've never heard anyone else propose the date of a historical Trojan War being 1100 BC -- that's 100 years too late. The date commonly proposed at the time this video was recorded was 1200-1180 BC, though it was acknowledged that while Troy appears to have fallen by force, there's no evidence the Greeks had anything to do with it (and in the broader context, it's highly unlikely they did). Troy was destroyed by earthquake or attack and rebuilt by inhabitants around 1100 BC, but the attackers were (if there were any) were almost certainly not the Greeks. Next, he mentions the Song of Roland as an example of what epic poets do. Moses Finley made the same comment in the mid-80s. This is a bit obtuse; a scholar of Mackey's stature should know better, but he may be using this as an example to illustrate his point that poets amplify things (Finley used it to suggest the Trojan War didn't happen as such but was a minor conflict that was inflated). I might be inclined to give him a bit of a pass here, given the format. In his discussion of Odysseus and the Trojan Horse, he fails the bring up a key point: yes, the point in the story is that cleverness wins wars, not brute strength. What I wish he would have mentioned is that in ancient Greece, this was an Athenian view from the Archaic/Classical period (they felt it was one of their defining characteristics). It was likely not the view in Homer's day and there is no reason to believe Homer had any such ruse in mind. The poems of the epic cycle were first assembled into their current order and heavily promoted under Peisistratus of Athens, around 550 BC (about 150 years or so after the Iliad was composed). It was entirely possible the whole horse myth with Odysseus dates from this period. (The Cypria, The Sack of Troy and The Returns are thought to have been composed around that time, per Martin West and others.) Lastly, he doesn't go into the significance of the Hittite on the question of whether there was a Trojan War. I guess that was out of his scope? But an odd omission if you're going to talk about the archaeology of Troy at all. Bottom line: this is a decent discussion of the Troy myth, but if you want to know about the history behind it, that is lacking. I find that a bit ironic, because that history is every bit as interesting and as epic as the myth -- perhaps more so. It would be nice to see that better recognized and appreciated.
Mackie said he's like to see the Illiad made as a movie with the gods of Olympus - many films have made made of greek stories (tho none of the Illiad that i know of) - one he might check out is CLASH OF THE TITANS (1981) in which the gods play with the humans like pieces in a board game - but leave a certain latitude - or are given some freedom by the counter moves of other gods
@@joshfriedman1461 this series shows how the Trojans are illustrated as more heroic and the Greeks as morally deeply flawed which is how Homer described them
Excellent exposition of complex topics. Truly informative and enjoyable. Now I am eager to explore the Gallipoli Myths! Many thanks from New York.
Mackie is a heavyweight in the field, and this video is old now, and maybe he's constrained here by the format, but his discussion is disappointing in some aspects. First, I've never heard anyone else propose the date of a historical Trojan War being 1100 BC -- that's 100 years too late. The date commonly proposed at the time this video was recorded was 1200-1180 BC, though it was acknowledged that while Troy appears to have fallen by force, there's no evidence the Greeks had anything to do with it (and in the broader context, it's highly unlikely they did). Troy was destroyed by earthquake or attack and rebuilt by inhabitants around 1100 BC, but the attackers were (if there were any) were almost certainly not the Greeks.
Next, he mentions the Song of Roland as an example of what epic poets do. Moses Finley made the same comment in the mid-80s. This is a bit obtuse; a scholar of Mackey's stature should know better, but he may be using this as an example to illustrate his point that poets amplify things (Finley used it to suggest the Trojan War didn't happen as such but was a minor conflict that was inflated). I might be inclined to give him a bit of a pass here, given the format.
In his discussion of Odysseus and the Trojan Horse, he fails the bring up a key point: yes, the point in the story is that cleverness wins wars, not brute strength. What I wish he would have mentioned is that in ancient Greece, this was an Athenian view from the Archaic/Classical period (they felt it was one of their defining characteristics). It was likely not the view in Homer's day and there is no reason to believe Homer had any such ruse in mind. The poems of the epic cycle were first assembled into their current order and heavily promoted under Peisistratus of Athens, around 550 BC (about 150 years or so after the Iliad was composed). It was entirely possible the whole horse myth with Odysseus dates from this period. (The Cypria, The Sack of Troy and The Returns are thought to have been composed around that time, per Martin West and others.)
Lastly, he doesn't go into the significance of the Hittite on the question of whether there was a Trojan War. I guess that was out of his scope? But an odd omission if you're going to talk about the archaeology of Troy at all.
Bottom line: this is a decent discussion of the Troy myth, but if you want to know about the history behind it, that is lacking. I find that a bit ironic, because that history is every bit as interesting and as epic as the myth -- perhaps more so. It would be nice to see that better recognized and appreciated.
Mackie said he's like to see the Illiad made as a movie with the gods of Olympus - many films have made made of greek stories (tho none of the Illiad that i know of) - one he might check out is CLASH OF THE TITANS (1981) in which the gods play with the humans like pieces in a board game - but leave a certain latitude - or are given some freedom by the counter moves of other gods
There's a pretty good trojan war movie on netflix-troy fall of a city.
@@joshfriedman1461 this series shows how the Trojans are illustrated as more heroic and the Greeks as morally deeply flawed which is how Homer described them
It was a very nice and fair tolk, whit healty way of sinicism. It was about time.