*Correction at 49 minutes: The theory that Dimitri's survival of the tragedy was unintentional shouldn't have been included in this video as its conjecture and should be treated as such. I elaborated more on this point here:* th-cam.com/video/7qk0rD4D1QE/w-d-xo.html This is the Edelgard Support Science Definitive Edition. Two hours of character analysis of Edelgard von Hresvelg. I took down the previous version of this video because after reading feedback and speaking to people who personally reached out to me, there was much more I could do. I genuinely hope you enjoyed this video. Its the first 2 hour analysis on the channel and I'm very proud of how it ended up. And if you dismissed the first one, but you're reading this, I hope you enjoyed it too!
I believe it actually is too long for its own good. I watched the og video which already was a hefty, massive piece of media only for it to be remade into even longer one which, honestly, i am not too keen on watching. It is too extensive and just not... Concise. I do not think such length is necessary, more, it is a turn off for me and possibly many others. When i watched almost all of your other videos, you never went so far on a root of a root of a root, which in the end is not entirely necessary in my opinion. Entire lore of three houses should be its own video rather than being explained in support science, else it feels like someone tried to fit entire history book to their cv to show what world machinations put them there. Last two videos especially went hard on the length of the video, which made me miss much simpler times when it was just 45 minutes rather than whole two hours. On top of that... i would say you come off as really biased, despite claiming to be critical in the description. I get it, support science is you fanboying over characters you love, no matter if they caused massive genocide or a war that could have been avoided, yet if you claim to be critical, be that way. If you read this i want to tell you that i appreciate your content nonetheless, even if it sometimes is tiring to watch. Thank you for the all the videos you deliver!
Actually there're lots of Claude gang vs Edelgard gang as well. Their arguments usually about 'Claude is a milder version of Edelgard who has no balls to do what she did, he agrees to all that she believe but he wants to be a supreme ruler himself, so he is more hypocritical and incapable than Edelgard'
@@fitriaamel438 Wow,so Claude not wanting to spread wanton bloodshed is being hypocritical? And nowhere in the game does it indicate that Claude wants to be a supreme dictator ruling the world like Edelgard. He wants free trade,less xenophoia,and open borders between countries. What makes Edelgard hypocritical to me is she says she wants change,but she never even considers trying peaceful alternatives to do so. She never tries talking with Rhea about her grievances with the church or try to find common ground with the other lords on her issues. What makes it even more sad that the other routes indicate that the peaceful options can work. She's an interesting character because of that hypocrisy though. Her tragic flaw is that she's so set in what she considers right that she's not willing to consider other peoples viewpoints.Sure,you can somewhat say that for the other two lords,but I think it especially applies to her. If she and the others could've came to an understanding on their shared grievances about Fondlan,they could've made just as great of a change without a war. And that's the greatest tragedy of 3 Houses's narrative to me.
@@infinitedreamer9359 he did say he wants to become a supreme ruler if you spare him in CF. But his tone is more like joking. And even if he's not joking, still doesn't count that remark as agreeing to El bloody method. But yeah El stans like to interpret Claude's and Dimitri's words in the worst way possible. And if you won't agree to them they will call you the hypocrite instead. Personally, I agree with you, the closest thing to a hypocrite is El herself.
"The goddess never gets directly involved" I imagine Byleth just sitting awkwardly in a corner going "yeah never no such thing as divine pulse that saved you from getting literally axed or anything hahaha"
Well we humans think that way. We claim god doesn’t exist because we can’t see and touch him, but he’s actually directing our lives and helping us in so many ways.
@@xAvitaLT The very same yes, depending upon which structure you follow that is. Though nearly all major denomination at least within the Abrahamic Faith's accept as it was stated the disparity with God no longer directly meddling as in the times of the old testament. Free Will and all that, so I'm afraid amateur theology that's been used since the middle ages will not work.
@@xAvitaLT Free will is a fickle mistress. God leaves us to our devices and we choose the stupid route, its hardly God's fault for our own stupidity. I'm a Deist so, my view on God is that of a benevolent but indifferent creator, with my own philosophy thrown in that I won't go into right now. In short, it isn't fair to treat God as this maniacal maniac who left us to slaughter each other like its some sadistic game, when that's far from the truth no matter how you slice it.
@@xAvitaLT yes and no. He is constantly helping and guiding us but he will not spoil us and a lot of those wars come about because we don't like to listen.
"It's ironic. The woman who seeks to free a continent by toppling a church - finds her peace in the goddess' reincarnation." Holy smokes, how did I never see it like that
I mean it's only sort of incidentally that way, Edelgard nor Byleth are aware of this until much into their ventures, and Byleth never acts as or for the goddess in their route, not to mention Byleth's Crest Stone disappears in Crimson Flower's ending anyway.
It's no irony, for Edelgard never opposed the godess, but the church of said godess, its leaders and its tyrannical rulership I think I remember Edelgard actually saying that she is ok with faith in the godess, and maybe indicating that she might be a believer herself
@@blackshaddow5005 I think it's Manuela's supports, where is shown that she has quite the negative view of the believers, assuming all of them do nothing other than wait for the goddess to do something for them, but later learn to accept that some people takes the spiritual support to be able to fight for themselves. (probably where you saw she saying that)
If only the Black Eagles route was 4 chapters longer, & let you actually PARTICIPATE in taking out the Agarthans. Wouldn't solve ALL of the route's problems, but could still salvage it in many ways. Edelgard potentially learning more about the Children of the Goddess & their history, confronting her about Jeralt's death, fighting her uncle, her reaction to Shambhala, her opinion on Nemesis, etc. Honestly surprised the DLC Pass never gave Black Eagles more story content, even if it had to be paid for.
Yeah.It's pretty strange that Edelgard never gets to learn the real history from the source(who was actually there).It would've made her a lot more sympathetic if she realized that Nemesis was no hero and that Rhea,for all her flaws and mistakes,had good reason to fight against him.
@@infinitedreamer9359 This is the irony where Rhea and Edelgard are actually parallel. Two people who are going to huge lengths to fight for their version of the right answer, and would make morally questionable decisions if that's what it takes. The difference with Rhea is just that she was portrayed more negatively throughout the story (the weirdness from just the start of the story, her "crazy" look, etc) that it makes it more obscured that Edelgard's pretty much the other side of the same coin.
Yeah considering how in other routes of the game, the alliance and the resistance army were able to take out those who slither in the dark in a single chapter and crashed their ambitions with the full of shamballa I highly doubt the empire would be given four chapters to deal with them.
Edelgard, Rhea and Dimitri have ALL lost their family in a gruesome way (by the same group of people), and have lost a part of themselves in their grieving. And unfortunately only Byleth and save/redeem them, and only one of them in a given route. Regardless, of how controversial these characters are, I think we can all agree that these are all tragic characters with similar origins for their motives.
Accurate. His personality is a funny one but the game literally tells you at the beginning that that's a facade. "His easy smile is striking, but that smile doesn't reach his eyes." Twenty minute Claude documentary, for sure.
People have all these complex, 500-word essays on why one lord is better than another, and here I am like: Edelgard: She's cool and small Dimitri: He's nice and blonde Claude: He's fun and chill
@@Kris_King That's also one of the reasons why she fights against everyone too, because she has not only suffered personally but also witnessed the crest system fail several other people. Like Jeritza, and Dorothea, just to name two of the many.
Man her reasons for doing what she did is another reason why edelgard is my favorite fire emblem character(I know hot take and I love a lot of other characters as well)
My head canon is that they couldn’t hold the monastery without some religious backing. They instead put Byleth as the martyr that was the goddess, that Rhea rejected. When Byleth returns, the plans change to making a church that makes Rhea the false idol and to slowly adjusts people to a church slowly divorced from the state.
@Merciless Freak I mean sure it would be cool to get more of some lesser known nintendo franchises but I still enjoy fire emblem games so im still gonna hope for more but im not gonna be upset if we dont get more
The scene were Byleth kills Edelgard had me shocked how brutal the protagonist is... Rewatching the video just makes me sad... "I wanted... to walk with you--." The blade cut of her sentence and her life, emotionless the way a meteor falls through a cloud.
@@burakkaankarakoc3879 I have also heard about the price Bilet wants in turn for his services, you must provide him as many woman as he requests to satisfy his sexual desires. No really, I am not kidding.
"because the mole people had goddamn nukes and imagine how telling you about something like this would affect morale before taking on Rhea and Dimitri"
@@floricel_112 well yes that would be edelgards answer probably but the drama that would ensue would be really good in terms of character and story development, and would be a better epilogue than the "and they lived happily ever after uwu" ending
@@golfer435 well thats not what i meant, the story would remain the same until the end, so the rhea arc would still be there. but the epilogue of the crimson flower says something around the lines of "edelgard, the professor and hubert dealt with the agarthans" in just a sentence, but i think it would have been better if we could play those parts of the story as well like in Verdant Wind, which would also give an opportunity to us to see Edelgard finally reveal her lies to her comrades and stuff
I find it ironic that Rhea blocked the printing press, expecially when in the real world the first book to be spat out by Gutenburg’s printing press was the Bible.
Wth, pls don't compare the church in this game with our world vatican church. They are totally different. Rhea's driving force is her own trauma of genocide against her races.
@@fitriaamel438 Now I'm Italian, I literally come from a family of catholic believers. The similarities are staggering, not one to one, but they are more than enough to not call them "coincidence"
@@ilpuntodigf for the fact that Op mentioned Bible, it's just so wrong alrdy. The game doesn't even have the equivalent of that. And no I don't see any similarities besides surface levels.
@@fitriaamel438 The Book of Seiros basically is a Bible because it tells stories of those who were significant to the history of its religion and has parts dedicated to it that outlines how its followers should act and worship the main deity.
Rhea blocked the printing press out of a justifiable fear that humans were apt to attempt genocide on her species if they found themselves in a position to do so (since they had done so in the past). She had a completely different set of circumstances and motivations than the IRL church of the 16th century in Europe.
Edelgard really made this game for me. One of the most fascinating characters in a video game and discovering different sides of her along with the other lords across various routes made this beautiful mess of a game work for me. I really hope in 10 years we get a remake where they give tlc to all the routes (and actually finish crimson flower).
Edelgard is def one of my favorite characters in the game. So rare to have a "villain" with this much depth rather than the usual cartoonish asshole emperors and not only that you can completely join her route. I like that in her supports with Constance she discusses what is essentially a republic and with Ferdinand they talk about free education for all, not just nobility. It's hard to fully call her a villain when ideologically she's a lot like the French Revolution or the American Revolutionaries
@@spaghetticondo.m9116 Yeah, someone allied with the TWSITD, which commit genocide is a lot like the revolutionist, when saying revolutionist, you refer to Robespierre? But I guess even Robespierre won't do so. A politician support by Neo-NAZI and allied with Neo-NAZI, allowing Neo-NAZI do all their things, so that he/she can become the president and start a war to conquer entire Earth, just to achieve his/her goal to create a peaceful, equal, utopia world, and said he/she will dealt with these Neo-NAZI afterward, I guess that's you guys favorite politician, right? That's quite make sense, while claiming how you guys love freedom, equality etc., but you know, to win, to achieve the goal, it is essential to have the support from these true villain, and in case to not provoke them before the ultimate victory, you just have to allow them do all the evil things. It just not my responsibility after all, I am the good guy who want to create a equal world.
She did say she's basically planning to lead a revolution multiple times, so she's quite literally a revolutionary. Imagine if the French emperor was the leader of the french Revolution basically.
@@spaghetticondo.m9116 antagonist is a good way to put it. Because of how strong her convictions are. She's willing to wear the mantle of villain but she is not exactly truely a villain. She accepts the burden of being a person that is To be hated by the world and have history revile her. it's why I don't consider her "redemption" her good ending, and see that more as part of Byleth's ending. Byleth needs to redeem her chosen Lord/Ally. Edelgard to get what she wants doesn't need redeeming and doesn't need current or future people's to like her to get what she wants. She doesn't even need to live in the better world she creates. it's a rare and potentially compelling but also dangerous character concept and I think it's pulled off well with Edelgard.
@@yashkeshavpatnam1852 Technecally the reason why Edelgard's father is so bad is because he's ill and has other people over his head preventing him from being a good father. From what we see of him it seems to me at least that he wished he had been able to be a better father but had strings that were stopping him from doing so.
Personally I'm glad I started Verdant Wind so I wasn't quite as biased about the Edelgard and Dimitri viewpoints in the community when I went into the other routes
I dont really understand how people get so bias. I did Azure Moon first then Crimson Flower but i made sure to play through CF without taking AM into thought. Each route is its only story and i feel people take too many bias into account
See, playing Verdant Wind prior to Crimson Eagle actually made me strongly biased against Edelgard. Because while she was talking about why she is doing what she does I was literally going “she’s wrong about that, that’s incorrect, oh she’s totally wrong, etc”
@@Rushboat yeah i can see that. Cause Verdant Wind is the route that tells you the real backstory of the relics crests etc and what Edelgard says is very misled. Likely from TWS lying to her
Honestly can’t stand eldelgard, I feel like if she pulled Dimitri and Claude aside and met with them in private with some evidence of her claims all this could’ve been avoided. And she probably could’ve gotten them on board for getting rid of the crest system too. It’s extremely annoying that she could’ve proved what the church did, what TWS in the dark did, what her family did. And instead went the route she did. Secondly if she really doesn’t like the whole crest society when she became emperor she could’ve enacted a lot of what she wanted bringing the people without crests on par with the people who do have them. At least in her own land anyway.
Timestamps: 0:00 Introduction 3:45 Origins of a Dream Part 1: The Crests 6:31 Origins of a Dream Part 2: Blackened Heart 8:33 Origins of a Dream Part 3: Rise of the Flame Emperor 19:13 The Red Rose: Support Analysis 43:39 Crimson Flower Part 1: Dimitri 59:00 Crimson Flower Part 2: Rhea 1:14:21 Crimson Flower Part 3: Story Criticism 1:37:15 Byleth Part 1: Kinship of Flame 1:45:22 Byleth Part 2: The Ashen Connection 1:59:37 Conclusion 2:02:09 Closing Thoughts
I'd contest the idea that Edelgard is being motivated by a desire for revenge, given that she puts Ferdinand's father under house arrest instead of having him executed and she has a lecture question with Byleth where the preferred answer is to remove Rhea's political power, not actually harm her, but otherwise this is a really impressive overhaul. I don't agree with everything in it, but it's very well thought-out. Thanks for taking the time to do so much work on this!
I think she realises that to keep noble support she can't really go around executing any aristocrat that abuses their power. As for Rhea, stripping someone of their power shows a much more benevolent and fair rulership, so it's the better solution if you want to not make enemies and give them justification to go against you.
One thing that's incorrect is that TWSITD wanted Dimitri to survive. Gilbert says he found Dimitri more on the brink of death after the attack. They definitely wanted to kill him too, but there is a possibility they utilized his survival later.
@@moltz4866 he's going to be the future king of his territory and the mole ppl wanted conflict between all 3.... That's all there is to it. Dimitri was supposed to die but didn't; however it was little concern and later thales "used/uses" it to his advantage. Not unbelievable given their behaviour
Seems strange that Dimitri would be on the "brink" of death at all. If Lambert was decapitated, why not do the same with Dimitri? I wouldn't put it past the Agarthans to keep Dimitri alive on purpose. They just made it look convincing enough that Dimitri was a target so that when Gilbert found Dimitri, he would be "saved" from the event.
kinda yeah. theres also rushing issues so some parts are them struggling and other parts them having to take away from the story to make deadline. its a shame
I feel its a lot of patchwork. The character stuff is always grand, and the story stuff somewhat is too, but you often have to patch pieces together from the different routes for maximum effect. An odd feeling when a lot of variables can be different path to path and whatnot.
I also really think they shouldn't have allowed so many characters to get recruited. Like what Ghast mentioned about Edelgard not receiving much retribution from her deceptive habits, the recruitment system, if you recruited a lot of people, makes it feel very unpunished that she literally just deceived all of them (besides Hubert) and moments later most just join her cause anyway. Especially in Edelgard's route, it would be a lot more powerful not to have that many students especially immediately after the reveal, and maybe have a combination of the impact of having to kill a lot of characters, or having to regain the trust of others.
@@sobacco7865 I think its a lot more dramatic/powerful if there is a mixture of students who join and who do not. Its just compelling to see all the various personalities and characters with there motivations choose various ways. With that said, it doesn't bother me much, largely because its not uncommon for people to come together under one mindset with their peers. Be it for fitting in, or skewed perspectives. The game almost reinforces this on how characters can be swayed in various direction based on how they or others convince them. Alas, I think there are cases where more characters should have been hard locked to paths based on their own personal beliefs. Some of them seem no brainer if they would or would not join Edelgard for example.
One thing that I appreciated when playing Crimson Flower is the time when I saw the Crest of Flames proc on Edelgard before I got the support conversation about her having that crest. I convinced myself I hadn’t seen that happen. It must have been a signifier of a different crest, or maybe I had seen it wrong? Or it was a glitch? But no, she had the Crest of Flames! And that made her story and Lysithia’s make more sense, because at that point, I know that the group that did the Crest experiments on Lysithia had just left once they figured out she could have two crests, as if they were confirming something and then went on to something else. Turns out, they went on to Edelgard. So disturbing, really. But that was really well done.
A bit late to the party, but I kinda just got to play 3H a few weeks ago anyways. Simply put, Edelgard became my favorite character quickly. Which is odd, since I played Crimson Flower last. But I really stopped up, took a double take and got surprised greatly by her death in Verdant Wind (my first playthrough). Even though she wasn't necessarily a "big" part of Claude's route, character-wise, there was definitely something extremely human in all of it. She's flawed. She's not always as strong as she thinks. She's treacherous at times. I don't even at all agree with her path in any sort of way. But by all means, she's an amazing character. I really didn't expect that I'd like her that much.
Honestly, Three House suffers from overreaching in its story Crimson Flower tells a complete story yes but suffers from being limited because its focus was so spread out after the time-skip due to four separate routes. On the whole, confronting Edelgard thing I would like a moment where El explained the Insurrection of Seven and how much power TWSITD had in Empire, and how most of the parents of her housemates complicit in it and why she was doing what doing and for some great understanding between the group.
First of all, it's so cool that you took a great and interesting video that you weren't happy with and improved it. You clearly have a lot of passion for this, and it came out great. Second of all, just gonna casually re-post my comment from the first iteration... The great thing about Three Houses is that it's a tragedy caused by unwavering beliefs, so if you argue that either side is entirely right or entirely wrong, you are explicitly the villain in Three Houses.
That is, I agree it was deliberate on the writing to make Edelgard do some stuff like fail to see the “humanity” in her enemies purely on their race. Still wish, like the reversal you bring up, stuff like this was actually implemented.
I found this video to flow much better and seem to have a much more even hand. Excellent work and its great to see consideration to make something better. Looking forward to whatever you choose to do next. Hope it was an excellent nap
@@arkhamlerouge8450 Give me a Three Houses sequel after an FE4 remake where you deal with Slytherin in CF, rebuild Faerghus, including getting rid other 2000 plus thieves or something, and have a good deal of diplomacy with other countries, and rebuild Duscur in Dedue's memory, get Sreng and Dagda to stop attacking, maybe through, like, an Arena Ferox situation.
@@arkhamlerouge8450 I always thought that Claude would have been on better use if he has his own game where we can see him fighting for his goals instead of having that in the background.
i have a lot of things to say about el here but tbh i find it exhausting to talk about her in this fandom. all i can say is that wether people love her or hate her, no one can deny the fact that she’s a complex enough character to polarize the fandom with some saying she’s good and others saying she’s not. i have my own opinion but i’m not gonna say it. instead, i will say that i love that there’s a standout female lord in the franchise who isn’t one-note and generic good girl jrpg protagonist and also she happens to wield a freaking axe. it’s not every day that these things happen. also, dimitri is best boy and i’m a marianne simp
Edelgard is easily the character that affected me the most among any other character in any piece of art. As an author myself, I will say that the best ever character I've ever written is the one that was inspired by Edelgard von Hresvelg. As a tribute, I named this character Edelgard as well and the more I give her some depth, the more I'm happy to have created such a character.
And I Beyer your character îs just as mediocre written as edelgard. Edelgard was honestly mediocre written, especially since the game didn't even try to make her dividend, since rhea was awfully written în The time skip. She barely îs mentioned în azure moon, she is an exposition bot în verdant Wind, and în crimson Flower rhea îs downgrade to an angry Karen with mommy issues. And edelgard lacks any reasons to dislike her other than "I like Dimitri better". There are thousands of characters that commited atrocities for a better future written way better than edelgard. But I guess you are that type of author who likes cute girls that are strong.
Still in the process of watching! You really said "peace was never an option 🦆🔪" I will say, though, I love your segment on Dimi/Gard and it bolsters your criticism of why Edelgard didn't reach out to him about this in the Battle of Tailtean from the first video. Really expresses the tragedy of the two being at odds regardless of route.
Honestly, my favorite thing about 3 houses is all 3 lords are actually pretty great... there were no real villians/heroes between the 3... only victims
Beautiful work! Edelgard deserves nothing less. I love El as a villain who I can empathize with. Sort of like how I view Light Yagami, and Lelouch, or even Thanos in a certain view. Not in a edgy sort of way. But more of a "I totally understand where she is coming from" and "If I were in her shoes I would probably do the same"- way. I just get tired of listening to people trying to reduce her as the just "hero". We have a million just heroes, but we only get a villain like El once in a azure moon. I love all three of my headstrong, depressed, scheming children equally.
To be fair, the fact that these argument always end up falling back on morality kinda tells you something. These aren't just characters, they are powerful examples of archetypes, clashes of philosophies in almost every way and differing ways to deal with trauma. Dimitri succumbs to his trauma, but admits it, embraces responsibility and overcomes it. Edelgard internalizes her trauma and it drives her every action, yet, she doesn't become the trauma, she's wide awake knowing what she's doing to others and suffers greatly for it, but suffers in secret because even she sometimes questions if what she's doing is right, but can't think of any other way to fix the world, her own trauma (which she carries with her to a point that it's part of her identity) blinds her to the idea of a peaceful reform.
All valid points. I always argue that like the other lords, Edelgard is fundamentally a lord that wants to look after her people. However she knows the darkest side of the corruption in Fodland and that “peaceful negotiations” did nothing to stop it. Instead, those negotiations were used as to hide the insurrection that stripped her father of most of his political power and to mediate the spread of technology by the church. Add that to knowing you will likely not live long, what can you do? Can you really trust a stranger, much less a rival lord, to carry out the reform you sought to make?
@@raphnoble808 on the flip side nothing good ever comes from the "destroy everything and remake it as I see fit" mentality as it is nothing more than control, arrogance, and narcissism. The prospect that any one character knows best is innately ruinous. It does get brought up to her that the world she would make is no different than the world she is in now.
Edelgard is my favorite character, to me she embodies conflict between humans the best and the sheer raw nature of violence that's almost always brought about by polarizing disagreements in ideology between the establishment and those who seek revolution. Revolutionaries were almost never not responsible for one atrocity or immoral act when it came to war either. Were there other options she could have taken? absolutely, were there other options that could have been taken by any given leader in our world to achieve the best outcome? absolutely, are leaders of nations still taking actions that are deemed immoral? absolutely, there are many notable examples of sheer hypocrisy and single mindedness in our world that serve as an example to what Edelgard personifies. The story already has a paragon being Claude. You can hate Edelgard and there's plenty of reason to hate her but in my opinion she's the most human out of all the characters when it comes to what most leaders have been throughout history.
@@bullseye5262 That's a silly argument. Bad people fight for "what they believe in" all the time. She's not "bad", but neither is she "good." That's what makes her interesting.
@@puddin4884 interesting assumption but I never she was “right” either nor was I arguing lol. I love the internet how people create narratives out of blank statements, it’s endearing.
As someone who loves Edelgard with all of her flaws I proudly say Crimson Flower is the weakest route. This was the first I've heard of a possible Shamballa chapter for Crimson Flower. Heck Edelgard has a more legitimate reason to go there than Claude does.
That make sense than Claude fight to Shamballa. One of the thematic of Three Houses is the importance of the truth. Silver snow and Azur Moon have a bitter ending because is your payoff to stay in the ignorance of the Fodlan history. In Crimson flower you have a more important part of the truth, but you miss major details from the history. Even if it was very frustrating, finish the game with a cold war against the true evil is the payoff to don't know all the truth. In Verdant wind we are in the quest of the truth, for this reason we destroy Shamballa AND fight Nemesis, the man behind the tourment of Fodlan, in the most joyful and epic fight of the game. This is our recompense to search and find this truth.
Yeah, I would have loved to see a CF that had more to it. Strange to say, I don't think they put ENOUGH effort into Edelgard's flaws. She kept having to tell you through script about how flawed she is and it's not shown with much subtlety, which is an advantage AM was given with better production and cutscenes where you can have a lot of different emotions shown at the same time in Dimitri, but Edelgard never really got the same chance (imo) -- besides just thinking after the fact about what emotions she may have been feeling.
@@fishnutz5196 And logically the route where you heard the less "unfullfiled" or other sad theme. But I don't consider Verdant Wind like the "best" route, more like the most satisfiying route
@@arkhamlerouge8450 thats true it all depends on what your after. If you want a deep dive into the lore i think VW is best for that. If you want a deep personal story then i think AM is your go to
Finally getting to watch this (I'm preparing for doctoral exams). As someone who did a blind run of Crimson Flower first, specifically aiming to S-rank Edelgard, even without the DLC and the things I now know about the game and story I loved Edelgard. The issue, for me, is that a story that could do her justice and adequately address the injustices of which she is a part is simply not a story that Three Houses as it reached us has the capacity to tell. There is simply no way to treat her character fairly in any route without extensive, self-motivated inquiry and contemplation by the player, who can't pursue any of these unresolved questions by playing the game itself, as you point out so clearly. Protect babygard tho for sure
I'm gonna just repost what I said before with a bit of revision. My morals and ethics aside, Edelgard is a pretty great character as an antagonist with some neat moments when shes the protagonist. Oh and this time for real, I look foward to you doing Claude and (hopefully Rhea) next. They are both great characters who deserve more attention. I also forgot to add my addendum when I found out Ghast was gonna do Claude next. Finally Ghast can talk about that time Claude defeated that wicked CEO.
@@biandanxious3438 Um...you misunderstood me then. I said morals and ethics aside. Meaning I personally do find Edelgard to be a villain, but I still think they are a good character. Just because a character is meant to be "morally grey" doesn't inherently mean you can only see them that way.
@@biandanxious3438 idk what you mean. Are you saying people shouldnt act as though their belief that insert lord is evil is fact? If so I agree. They arent god, and even if they were, I decide what's right and wrong. However I find character discussions like Edelgard great, cause they go in depth about a character as a whole. That's usually a sign of good writing. These character discussions also do a good job of weeding out people who agree with ethics and morals such as Els. I dont like utilitarians who go that far. Especially those who unironically think she did nothing wrong. That said she isnt the first or last character that does this. She is a another Lelouch, Arvis, and Lyon. Some other character will be too. I look forward to more characters like her.
I meant to do crimson flower first but then got locked into silver snow. And like the entire time I was like "Damn I wanted to walk with you too. But now I'm stuck with a sad dragon dilf"
I don’t think Dimitri knowing that edlegard had nothing to do with Duscur originally would matter, as even if he knew she initially had no involvement and still chose to align herself with those who killed both of their parents is kind of a shitty backstab no matter how you spin it. I think he would have gone crazy with rage against her regardless considering their previous relationship and though the betrayal wasn’t as deep as he originally thought, it’s still a massive betrayal
True, also I don’t think Dimitri believes that she personally masterminded it. He blames her because she was (albeit unwillingly and indirectly) responsible. The tragedy of Duscur was done to give Edelgard more power, he plays the clip of Thales saying so. 47:25 he says they were killed FOR her, he blames her because she knew what happened and still allied with them which Dimitri interpreted as her condoning, or at least tolerating, such a slaughter.
Still he proves to lack the ability to rule as he is not perceptive to see the right motives behind people, understand what actually happened beyond what seems obvious, cos a leader needs a strategic mind to be able to see through enemies plans. Funny this is literally the first thing Edelgard pointed out about him in the game. Worst he is blinded by his thirst for revenge, hence unable to think critically and accurately. He is also emotionally and mentally unstable. If he can’t lead himself right, how can he lead others? For me I chose Edelgard from the start because I recognise her competency and her leadership skills, and strong conviction. Unlike most people who choose because one is more likeable or cool or tragic etc, I chose who I want to be my leader. She had all the reason to seek revenge too, but instead she looked at the bigger picture, instead wanting to work on a future where her people’s won’t ever have to go through such tragedy. She didn’t make it about herself, instead sacrificing her life for the people. That’s the Leader I respect.
i'm glad i watched the El story first. It feels like i know how interesting she is already, and we need this doc for the others to catch up. Great doc by the way, and i really appreciate it
I would honestly really love to see a critical analysis of Claude! I find him just as interesting as the other Lords and I'd love an indepth look at his character and motivations.
*Edelgard's route really needed a paralogue in the first half where the nobility does something messed up for crests and the church does a coverup* to demonstrate some of the problems more overtly. *Edelgard also needed to spell things out more concretly.* A good point for that would have been by having her keel over and get very sick after Rhea's death and then having to come clean about her shortened lifespan and then tell Byleth alot more details as she asks him to finish the job for her, in case she runs out of time. Similar to how Claude explains his goals.
I mean... That's chapter 5. That's literally what happens in chapter 5. Miklan is a crestless would-be heir that was disowned by his father once his legacy was secure in Sylvain, who then stole his family's Relic and got transformed into a demonic beast. Rather than acknowledge this, Rhea quite literally tells you to stay quiet about it.
The first half of White cloud show how bad is the system : Zanado where we sent our dear young student kill guys, Lonato and the injustice create by the church, the order to execute the membres of the west church. And, obviously, the mission with Milan where you watch how the crest system and the lies of the church (hero relics) can break someone.
Bruh the entire first half of the game is to show how fucked the crest system is. Like, every unit with a crest has a support where they talk sbout their parents being pieces of shit
@@meetomeeto8271 Sylvain, Ingrid, Dimitri, Claude, Felix (who hates his dad, but for a different reason), also bringing up Casper as an exact opposite of what you said (he is fine with being crestless)?
You clearly put your heart into this one and deserve all the more support for having the balls to take a step back, re-evaluate your thoughts and rework this absolute masterpiece. Happy to say I helped work on it with ya man it turned out freaking amazing!
Love the video, I think the criticisms on CF is well-founded, but I really appreciate your acknowledgement of Caspar's possible involvement in calling out Edelgard's lie after Arianrhod. Some deserved appreciation for my favorite boy!
Edelgards route was my first playthrough of the game, I didn’t even know it could be missed unless you explicitly chose to side with Rhea in the tomb. Because she was my first route I was shown a horrifically tragic character rather than a monster who would do anything to win had I chosen to side with Dimitri first, and I think that contrast of her characterization is why I still love her as a character and why I am so upset that her route was so clearly cut short
I think that "uncle's strategy" refers to a total assassination attempt. Dedue saved Dimitri before he could be eliminated which would have put the kingdom in control of Agarthans like Cornelia. He was probably left alive because his cooperation with Dedue would make further attempts on his life too obvious or increasingly hard to pull off, as well as the fact that he was too young to be a proper king. This is backed up by the fact that the kingdom always joins armies with the church which would be a major detriment to the Agarthans' goals.
I love Edelgard so much.. she’s amazing and I understand why people hate her, but she definitely became my favorite lord. Her views are amazing, and I always go for her side. Albeit I love all the three houses lords.
Well said. There is something you need to realize, even if Crimson Flower had more chapters similar to Azure Moon or Verdant Wind, it would possible to leave those loose ends remain untied. Your questions might still be there. Edelgard sole purpose to deceive her house was really to further whatever agenda she has. Lying about Arianrhod, might be to as to not freak out her classmates. The only reason the Black Eagles follow her was because the professor did as well. I played Silver Snow as my last route, all they mention in Silver Snow is how they want to stop Edelgard. Probably because the professor wanted to stop her as well. Your thoughts are really well received. I find Edelgard to be a very complex and driven house leader that I don't think Fire Emblem has seen before.
Your comments about bias are very accurate. Having played azure moon first my love for Dimitri was already pretty well set in when I played crimson flower. This isn't to say I didn't enjoy anything about her but I definitely found it harder to care and pay attention to her more positive aspects. Especially with the savior complex stuff that goes on in the Caspar and Linhardt supports. It almost came off as her just bothering my favorite characters lol.
Bias is undeniable on every side. But at the same time, I don't think bias alone explains why Edelgard is a divisive character. I went into CF expecting to love playing as the antagonist for once. And I love Hubert (and Jeritza), who are CF exclusive too. But there's something about how Edelgard was written that just comes off as ... annoyingly. Almost like it excuses all her actions and never allows her to face consequences. Which is kinda unlikable.
I think regarldess of how we feel about edelgard. The discourse and ability to talk about these characters for this long shows how good the character writing is in 3H.
So the way I've always viewed the three houses games: Byleth with Sothis' power is experiencing every possible timeline divergence; not just the choice of which of the children they will be the teacher of, but which possible timeline they want to see through as the future. Dimitri is all about preserving the status quo with subtle changes; the acknowledgment of the church is the reason why the kingdom of fargus got its power quite like how the Sun's light is reflected off the Moon, and what is the Moon without phases of darkness. Claude is all about opening borders and finding new perspectives including breathing new life and change into the country but only as a passing unseen Wind. Edelgard wanted to burn away all of the corruption of TWSITD who have been hiding under the stones of the church in order to make the future brighter for those who deserve it, much like Flowers growing after wildfires. If Byleth does not choose any of those three futures, we get the cold comfort of the church as it was but now with Byleth at the helm, much like undisturbed Snow.
Saying that Arandel planned for Dimitri to start a war is a WAY bigger leap in logic than blaming Edelgard for Duscur... In fact, it really doesn't make any sense... Given that Edelgard planned to attack long before Dimitri would have ever figured out for sure it was Arandel, the fact that Dimitri did research on his own, he wasn't "fed" crumbs any more than anyone else who investigated, and the fact that the coup that took place sided WITH the empire, had they simply successfully killed Dimitri, there would have been ZERO resistance from Faerghus, allowing them to focus all their efforts in the church and the Leicester Alliance. Leaving Dimitri alive would be UTTERLY stupid... Had Dimitri died at Duscur, Edelgard would have won the war before Byleth ever woke up...
For longform content, this was something truly fun and engaging to listen to! I'm of the camp that supports Edelgard -- her hourglass was ticking and she fought for the world she wanted others to benefit from, which is incredibly selfless, and especially so given her limited lifespan. Sure she was a martyr to her own cause, but she never waivered in it and even accepted criticism along the way to help her more adeptly navigate her difficult path.
As someone who began with and adores the Golden Deer route above the others even after playing them, both this video and the one you made on Dimitri have aided in my growing appreciation for these characters. Thank you for all of your hard work!
Watching your first video and now the definitive version was a blast, and I sincerely thank you for the discussion you had about Edelgard, her characterizarion, and 3H's writing as a whole.
Almost 100% sure that Claude fans are the only people watching these kind of videos. Feels like his path leaves out so much juicy plot but I’m afraid I can’t deny Claude’s path feels definitive from a gameplay perspective. Narrative seemed to be Intelligent System’s second priority when making 3H. But the community enriches it’s narrative and I really enjoy the long videos like this. Im watching Dimitri’s next. Keep up the great work and hope that everything is going well with you
1:02:42 Tbh I feel like a lot of players do this too. Anyway, you nailed it even more this time! While I think the concept of her character is phenomenal, and she has some very solid supports and moments in her story that humanize her a lot, I don't vibe with Edie as a protagonist as much as I want to, unfortunately. I find the dissonance of the BESF just going along with her after everything she did in White Clouds really hard to swallow. I love those guys, so them getting played like irrelevant yes-men in the main story just isn't it. And Edie straight-up lying to them about Arianrhod only makes that worse. And weakens her arc of opening up to others, as you mentioned. Since her enemies barely pose any military or moral challenge to her in CF, that element of her character becomes quite important, so it being weakened like that really hurts her, I feel. I also don't really dig her and Byleth's relationship. You made a very good case for it, but for all its narrative substance, I find it hard not to see it as Edie swooning over a walking mannequin that's supposed to be you. It's kind of an issue I have with AM as well, but it's really notable in CF. It feels pandering and degrades some of my respect for Edie's character, especially since it's so based on Byleth being "superior" to her and how she makes such a big deal that it's only you she can open up to and rely on. Honestly, at some points it felt like the writers cared more about portraying Edie as your cute emperor gf than anything, which is.... Ehh. I still enjoyed CF, but stuff like that made me question things. All that said, I LOVE her as an antagonist. Getting to oppose my own Lord because I disagreed with her in SS was an experience I'll never forget, her dynamic with Dimitri in AM is fantastic, and her sheer willpower, dominance, and forward thinking are hugely respectable
As somebody who adores Edeleth, I want to mention, there is another aspect to that pairing, that Ghast missed: Edelgard sees herself in Byleth, someone who hides their emotions under a mask and is unable to cry. Apart, from her literally stating, that she thinks, they have similar personalities in her description of herself, this is demonstrated in the parallels between Byleth crying over Jeralt's death and Edelgard crying over Byleth seemingly dying, both signifying their respective masks completely breaking down for the first time.
Thank you for that bit about SS. That route is so overhated. Like in what game can you be aligned with a Lord to the point where you can straight up oppose them? I guess you can argue Fates, but that's different. Corrin has to choose an alligment. Byleth already sorta did at the beginning of the game, but now they have to test their loyalty. That was amazing. SS does make me appreciate Byleth as a character tbh. But they did need more work to truly be appreciated. At least for me.
I agree with you about Edelgard's relationship with byleth. Even if you side with her, you can't tell her things like 'putting caspar's dad in charge of the alliance remnant is a bad idea.' or 'no, destroying the alliance and kingdom is not going to make a better fodlan.' which is something that I felt was a big let down.
Edelgard is one my favorite characters in all of the fire emblem games. I can understand the path she took. Considering she's probably going to die young the only way to change something in that short of time is an extreme revolution. That's my opinion though. i like all the routes but edelgard is the most interesting to me
Thanks again for this legendary work on prob my fav character in fire emblem. Now all I need is a Remaster of 3H with all those missing answers and a polished CF route.
The sheer amount of toxicity surrounding Edelgard caused me to delete Twitter which was the best decision I've ever decided to do. However it also has led me to dislike 3H more than I would have. I like the game but it or rather toxic idiots ended up causing me more headaches than probably every other game. I couldn't say I enjoyed Edelgards character in the slightest without being screeched at so I simply distanced myself from the game and now have a bitter taste in my mouth anytime I try playing it. Thats why it took me so long to watch this great video. I just want to enjoy the games and characters in peace but I can't discuss it with hardly anyone without getting fed up.
Edelgard is my favorite character by far, and it angers me so much that she gets hate for killing. She killed strategically as a part of a war so LITERALLY CREATE DEMOCRACY and Dimitri killed indiscriminately in horrible ways for five years and fought to maintain imperialism, The caste system, and never knew about or dealt with TWSITD. Even though Arundel died, he wasn’t the organization, there were still leaders like Myson in shambala. The hate she gets makes literally no sense, and if you don’t agree with her, appreciate her as the near perfectly written villain. Sheesh
@@pedantickilljoy I agree completely. For some reason I find people try to bring politics into it which doesn't make much sense and try to call her a fascist clearly not knowing what they are. She's a really complex character. I wouldn't say she did nothing wrong however all 3 of the lords were wrong in their own ways. I also find it funny that Dimitri went around killing indiscriminately and his fans go "oh its ok he got better" the absolute hypocrisy. And like you said even if you don't agree with her there's no denying she is a well written character. I only wish that her route didn't get shafted like it did. 3H added a much appreciated moral grey after the cluster fuck that was "Corrin can do no wrong" of Fates.
Great analysis-as someone who strongly resonates with dimitri’s ideals, this helped me understand and appreciate Edelgard’s character and motivations far better. To me it seems to be the case that Dimitri values people over ideals, whereas Edelgard values ideals over people. Dimitri empathizes deeply with the experience of surviving (and saving others from) tragedy, so he’s committed to protecting people from meaningless pain and violence, even if it means preserving an asymmetrical system of the “strong” and “weak.” Edelgard also suffers through a serious tragedy, but processes it from angle of the Crest system being flawed. She sees her responsibility as liberating the world of that system, even if it means killing, deceiving, or betraying innocent people in that path. Understanding both sides better only makes the plot more bittersweet. These two have both suffered tremendously, and are both heroes saving the world from the suffering they had to endure. Yet their different worldviews, convictions, and choices pit two people who would otherwise have been great friends as enemies.
You did a fantastic job on this. While I still don't like Edelgard or agree with her, you encapsulated a lot of my thoughts on her. Oh how I wish they had spent more time on her route and the game. Just a few more months spent polishing the gaps in her story might have made her the best Fire Emblem protagonist and antagonist ever. Really incredible work.
As a huge fan of both Edelgard and Dimitri, I never understood how people could bring themselves to hate one and love the other (usually hating Edelgard and loving Dimitri). The irony is that both of them actually want the same things: To bring down the systematic oppression that weaker and lower class face. They simply see different things as the cause. Edelgard sees the Church as the oppressor (and TWSITD), while Dimitri sees Edelgard and pointless war (pointless to him) as the oppressor. They could both actually agree on the issue of Crest prejudice, as in Hopes Dimitri himself even says he also finds the Church and Crest system flawed and wrong. I truly wished they could talk and find middle ground and learned each other’s actual perspectives because them as a team would be unstoppable. Dismantling the church (though ideally through showing people like Seteth, Flayn, Catherine, and Gilbert the harm the Church does and dismantling it mostly peacefully), working with Hanneman to allow Crests to be usable by anyone, and then taking on TWSITD together.
Crimson Flowers shortness, and not including the war against the Agarthans, make it feel like the route was an afterthought they added on afterwards. I'm still very disappointed and upset that Crimson Flower didn't let us then go to destroy Those Who Slither In The Dark afterwards.
Dimitri not seeking peace in Crimson Flower: I'm not surprised. There's a throw away conversation with an NPC in the Monastery during Crimson Flower that talks about Rhea going mad after the war broke out, spouting nonsense. We know Rhea is a cold hearted person who is willing to do whatever she can to remain in power, and to get what she wants. The Parle in Azure Moon is partly because Dimitri is being guided by Byleth, whom is clearly a force of good in both Edelgard and Dimitri's life. Rhea on the other hand is unrelenting. That's also why Edelgard in Azur Moon isn't relenting either: She doesn't have the guiding light of Byleth on her side. But, this is also probably why Edelgard doesn't seek to parle too: Rhea's got Dimitri in her grasp. Dimitri is in many way's Rhea's Puppet.
Took me so long to play this game and I finished crimson route just to watch this and I loved it. The pros and cons of her character and story. You made me like her even more as a character
(GD gang here) Edelgard is one of, if not my favorite, antagonists in the franchise due to how sympathetic she is. Maybe its my bias from having played Verdant Wind first, but I find myself understanding where Edelgard is coming from even though I disagree with her methods. Your comments about the story and missed potential for Edelgard to be held accountable by her own allies pretty much sum up my feelings exactly. While she is a top tier FE antagonist for me, I cannot like her as a protagonist due to these issues. She never faces consequences or even just a simple confrontation over her connections with the argathians and the deception of her supposed "trusted" allies in the Black Eagles.
The first revolutions in our world from Feudalism to Liberalism were not peaceful. The feudal lords did not wish to give up their absolute power. Edelgard's revolution seems to have gone far smoother than the French revolution.
@@ericamborsky3230 did it though? We never fully get to see what happens after the church (which has been the society standard for 1,000 years) is suddenly ripped out from under people. That creates a tremendous power vacuum, and the fact that after all was said and done, that she has the nerve to "step down" and absolve herself of filling that vacuum proves that Edelgard has a childish mentality and outlook on life, and was unfit to lead and rule in the first place. She had a bloody tantrum that cost needlessly large numbers of lives because she had no firm, factual leadership qualities outside of wartime. This means her dissatisfaction manifested as her lashing out easily, and making multiple poor political, tactical and economical decisions, and creating a rift between citizens of every nation. (Plus, I don't see her enacting a plan to help those less fortunate victims of her war that were barely sustained by the church; just "stabalizing" Fodlan, which puts it in an incredibly vulnerable. And highly volatile state, ripe for another war). Ultimately, what she did was entirely too hasty. I guarantee you, her actions would not create a lasting peace. It would be fleeting, and war would ravage absolutely everything a few years afterwards.
@@kaitoudark1 There's not a chance in hell that Edelgard created lasting peace. In CF, you can potentially kill Seteth, Flayn, Claude and Hilda while also killing Dimitri and Rhea. Because of this, you can easily picture a situation where remnants of the church, Faerghus, Leicester and Almyra rebel against her afterwards. Especially when you take into account that Faerghus and Leicester fought wars of independence to earn their own freedom and sovereignty, why would they want to become part of the empire again?
First playthrough was Crimson flower for me. And I loved it. Mostly got it because I'm a loot goblin that spent AGES hoovering every piece of bait and lost items I could get my hands on.
This video has reinforced a few conclusions I drew after (finally!) beating all 3 paths. Firstly, if you're playing the game for the first time, you absolutely should pick the Crimson Flower path first. If for no other reason, it makes the twist that Edelgard was the flame emperor more gutting because you get to know her and trust her, and being on her side for that first playthrough makes it all the more tragic in the other paths where you are forced to kill her. Secondly, her character is goddamn fascinating, and it's a crime that her route (which is the most unique of the four) is also the shortest. Literally the criticisms you brought up about how her deception never caught up with could have been fixed with one chapter. Here, I'll write it right now: "Edelgard is about to fight Rhea after killing Dimitri, but then more Javelins of light drop. El realizes that she has to take care of Thales now (not later/off-screen), and her friends ask why, since they think it was the church who dropped those bombs. Edelgard confesses it wasn't them, and her friends abandon her. Suddenly Edelgard is more alone than she's been, and you have to fight the battle in Shambala with just a small group. But then, mid-battle as things go bad, they come in as reinforcements, and it's glorious. Power of friendship and all. Then, you go fight Rhea, and the game ends as it does." It wouldn't impact the pacing, it would address virtually all of the issues you listed, you wouldn't even have to create that many new assets since the map is in the other paths. All you need to do really is record some more lines. You could even still keep that final fight as it was. Anyway, the only other criticism I have that you didn't bring up is that it feels weird to me in the Verdant Wind path that you still end up killing Edelgard. To be honest, Claude felt basically useless in every other path except his own. I was hoping his path would be him trying to end the war without Edelgard and Dimitri killing each other, or at least playing them off each other to gain an advantage. But no. The path is virtually a clone of "Silver Snow", albeit with a much more rousing and climactic ending.
Interestingly enough the goddess did end up hearing edelgards’ prayers because no matter what route, Fodlan is heading towards a new age in prosperity of the people.
Whoa a youtube video with DLC nice Edit: I agree with a lot of the new additions to this version aswell as the general flow of the video 10 out of 10 would watch again
Awesome work! Edelgard is one of the most fascinating characters in Three Houses, which is why it sucks that her route felt less fleshed out compared to the other three.
Ah, it looks like the first big change in the video (from the first version) is in relation to Dimitri. Yeah, it seems like the Edelgard-Dimitri conflict is at the heart of the conflict between fans or haters of the characters, as well. I think the whole "peace was never an option" thing is something that could've been better seen if the scene had a cutscene. Or, incidentally, if Silver Snow had a different endgame. Maybe on that route, deposing Dimitri wouldn't have happened quite the same. TWSITD could've rallied behind Cornelia after Edelgard's death, with them using a still alive Dimitri as a puppet, bloodlusted but unfulfilled. And then there's the addition regarding Rhea and Edelgard's stances on the faith. Tbh, as a person of faith who understands Edelgard's ideals, this anti-theist does bother me a bit. It's not as bad as it could be, but it's still a limiting factor in the story. The story might have been more logical, but less complex, if she actually put more priority on beating TWSITD. Once the pro-empire Alliance parts joined (either after Deirdru, or if the route was changed to have such a thing happen earlier, such as if she was working on those alliances with people like Count Gloucester pre-war), that could've been a good time to be more honest about the threat the Agarthans are (especially considering Arianrhod). She could've had the power to oppose them without a post-game secret war.
I love Three Houses for creating these kinds of discussions. All three of the main lords are both admirable and reprehensible in different ways (except maybe Claude, he's mostly just a good guy) and there's really no right or wrong answer for which will create the best Fodlan.
1:50:57 I would agree if it wasn't for the fact that literally almost the whole Black Eagles treat Edelgard as a classmate and a friend (see: Caspar and Linhardt. __Specially__ Caspar), not as an unreachable princess. I will use Caspar as an example here because he is the best suited for it - but his support with Edelgard shows just how little he cares for her title, and treats her informally and as a classmate. If Edelgard decided to be herself in front of anyone, Caspar would be the least person to judge her for doing so (he doesnt care she is the imperial princess or a noble, he cares about character first and background second). If you replace Caspar for Byleth it wouldn't make much difference, except for the fact that Caspar doesn't command Edelgard - he fights __alongisde__ her, as an equal, as a comrade. And honestly? I think that's more compelling than what the writers tried to accomplish with Byleth. I'm using Caspar as an example, but I'm pretty sure Dorothea and Linhardt can fulfill her need for emotional fulfillment as well. It's not that Byleth is special or perfect for Edelgard, but that the game pushes that narrative, pushes Edelgard to rely on Byleth only instead of her "friends" (the black eagles)
I come again to this video after finalizing Crimson Flower. I usually watch your support science videos for self indulgent reasons (those being: which are the best pairings in FE), so I was waiting in this video to see which Edelgard pairing would be the best for her in your opinion- and apparently that answer was Byleth (but I shouldn't be surprised, this game pushes the Edeleth agenda too hard, you want it or not). I believe I said this in the previous version of this video, but its very difficult to me to see Byleth being the perfect partner for Edelgard (or for pretty much anyone) due to their lack of personality. But despite this, I really liked your video! After playing black eagles, I understand more of what you are saying here. This video made me have some things of the story in perspective (as well as understanding more of the story in general. CF is very wonky in its writing)
@@prospitdreamer The game definitely and unfortunately pushes the Byleth/Edelgard ship too hard. But even worse, it fails to understand that Byleth didn't really change Edelgard for the better. After all, what is different? She still starts a war. She still invaded and conquered. She still doesn't trust the Black Eagles enough to share the truth with any of them. And she still ignores alternative methods in favor of her extremist tendencies. It's hard to say how Byleth being there actually made Edelgard better. The only thing it did was allow her to actually win the war for once.
I already posted talking about my appreciation for the work that went into this project, but I definitely want to post my thoughts as to why I felt this video was such an overall improvement from a video that I already thought was all around pretty excellent. I liked how in this version, Crimson Flower as a route is not immediately presented as bad and is instead portrayed as lacking and flawed. I also appreciated the acknowledgement in this version that the main theme of Edelgard's route is conviction. By clearly outlining that CF is about Conviction and not Redemption, it becomes easier to understand the point being made about a lack of reflective "recognition," moments in this story. The first version did not make the main message of the CF route clear and as such it was easy to assume that the major critique of CF was that it does not redeem Edelgard's character when that was never the point of the route to begin with. I also appreciate the nuanced breakdown of the Dimitri and Rhea sections in this video whereas in the previous version there were sections they gave off the feel that Dimitri was 100% the victim in the King of Delusion scene and that Rhea did not do anything to wrong Edelgard. Finally, I am SUPER thankful this version talks about how a lack of a Shambhala/Those Who Slither in the Dark conclusion to CF hurts not only the storytelling but Edelgard's characterization. If there had been a confrontation with TWSITD, it would have necessitated the reveal of Edelgard, Hubert, and Byleth's deception of the Black Eagle Strike Force and would have definitely been a great moment for everyone to admonish the trio for not trusting them with the truth behind Arianrhod's destruction. I still think things could have worked out story wise as Thales could have served as the route's true final boss in a manner similar to Nemesis where you would have had to defeat powerful crest powered automatons in order to weaken Thales before eventually having to rush to defeat him before he destroys Shambhala with the Javelins of Light.
Fascist has completely lost its meaning: it's just a word people use to describe someone they don't like. And there's a difference between "villain" and "antagonist".
There's still clear meaning to the word Fascist. People who censors the truth, people who shuts down discussion because they disagree with what is being discussed, people who are against free speech, people who dox others, ... etc. Those people are fascists.
Thank you for the video! It was well thought and investigated. Initially, Edelgard's character and route seemed unappealing to me, assuming immediately she was a villian. Watching your video, I'm reminded that assuming things about the others is a stupid thing to do, and that I should totally go on a more welcoming outlook in life. Thanks again, absolutely subscribing
Also to the whole Edelgard is in love with Byleth and her getting the full Rei near-canon LI treatment and song. She is still the only lord to have both gender S supports since Crimson Flower pretty much is like Edelgard is absolutely in love with them
![The Dimitri Documentary. [Fire Emblem: Support Science #21] Fire Emblem: Three Houses](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/MbACngcWkEE/mqdefault.jpg)
![The Dimitri Documentary. [Fire Emblem: Support Science #21] Fire Emblem: Three Houses](/img/tr.png)
![ILLSLICK - KILLSHOT REMIX [FULL VERSION]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RIK8RrqIAzE/mqdefault.jpg)
*Correction at 49 minutes: The theory that Dimitri's survival of the tragedy was unintentional shouldn't have been included in this video as its conjecture and should be treated as such. I elaborated more on this point here:* th-cam.com/video/7qk0rD4D1QE/w-d-xo.html
This is the Edelgard Support Science Definitive Edition. Two hours of character analysis of Edelgard von Hresvelg. I took down the previous version of this video because after reading feedback and speaking to people who personally reached out to me, there was much more I could do.
I genuinely hope you enjoyed this video. Its the first 2 hour analysis on the channel and I'm very proud of how it ended up. And if you dismissed the first one, but you're reading this, I hope you enjoyed it too!
Lads can we get an f for El?
Fantastic video! This truly shows your passion for the series
Thanks for all your work!
@@zeropelli7026 she can get an L. that's all she deserves.
I believe it actually is too long for its own good. I watched the og video which already was a hefty, massive piece of media only for it to be remade into even longer one which, honestly, i am not too keen on watching.
It is too extensive and just not... Concise. I do not think such length is necessary, more, it is a turn off for me and possibly many others. When i watched almost all of your other videos, you never went so far on a root of a root of a root, which in the end is not entirely necessary in my opinion. Entire lore of three houses should be its own video rather than being explained in support science, else it feels like someone tried to fit entire history book to their cv to show what world machinations put them there.
Last two videos especially went hard on the length of the video, which made me miss much simpler times when it was just 45 minutes rather than whole two hours.
On top of that... i would say you come off as really biased, despite claiming to be critical in the description. I get it, support science is you fanboying over characters you love, no matter if they caused massive genocide or a war that could have been avoided, yet if you claim to be critical, be that way.
If you read this i want to tell you that i appreciate your content nonetheless, even if it sometimes is tiring to watch. Thank you for the all the videos you deliver!
Watching Edelgard and Dimitri fans fight is allot like in the game - this post was made by the Claude gang
This is a repost of a comment I made on the original btw
@@temmiecorp4214 The funny but sad part of your post in either version is how true this joke is.
Actually there're lots of Claude gang vs Edelgard gang as well.
Their arguments usually about 'Claude is a milder version of Edelgard who has no balls to do what she did, he agrees to all that she believe but he wants to be a supreme ruler himself, so he is more hypocritical and incapable than Edelgard'
@@fitriaamel438 Wow,so Claude not wanting to spread wanton bloodshed is being hypocritical? And nowhere in the game does it indicate that Claude wants to be a supreme dictator ruling the world like Edelgard. He wants free trade,less xenophoia,and open borders between countries. What makes Edelgard hypocritical to me is she says she wants change,but she never even considers trying peaceful alternatives to do so. She never tries talking with Rhea about her grievances with the church or try to find common ground with the other lords on her issues. What makes it even more sad that the other routes indicate that the peaceful options can work. She's an interesting character because of that hypocrisy though. Her tragic flaw is that she's so set in what she considers right that she's not willing to consider other peoples viewpoints.Sure,you can somewhat say that for the other two lords,but I think it especially applies to her. If she and the others could've came to an understanding on their shared grievances about Fondlan,they could've made just as great of a change without a war. And that's the greatest tragedy of 3 Houses's narrative to me.
@@infinitedreamer9359 he did say he wants to become a supreme ruler if you spare him in CF. But his tone is more like joking. And even if he's not joking, still doesn't count that remark as agreeing to El bloody method.
But yeah El stans like to interpret Claude's and Dimitri's words in the worst way possible.
And if you won't agree to them they will call you the hypocrite instead.
Personally, I agree with you, the closest thing to a hypocrite is El herself.
"The goddess never gets directly involved" I imagine Byleth just sitting awkwardly in a corner going "yeah never no such thing as divine pulse that saved you from getting literally axed or anything hahaha"
Well we humans think that way. We claim god doesn’t exist because we can’t see and touch him, but he’s actually directing our lives and helping us in so many ways.
@@AddamSolo The same one that allows all these constant wars and death to continue on?
@@xAvitaLT The very same yes, depending upon which structure you follow that is. Though nearly all major denomination at least within the Abrahamic Faith's accept as it was stated the disparity with God no longer directly meddling as in the times of the old testament. Free Will and all that, so I'm afraid amateur theology that's been used since the middle ages will not work.
@@xAvitaLT Free will is a fickle mistress. God leaves us to our devices and we choose the stupid route, its hardly God's fault for our own stupidity. I'm a Deist so, my view on God is that of a benevolent but indifferent creator, with my own philosophy thrown in that I won't go into right now. In short, it isn't fair to treat God as this maniacal maniac who left us to slaughter each other like its some sadistic game, when that's far from the truth no matter how you slice it.
@@xAvitaLT yes and no. He is constantly helping and guiding us but he will not spoil us and a lot of those wars come about because we don't like to listen.
"It's ironic. The woman who seeks to free a continent by toppling a church - finds her peace in the goddess' reincarnation."
Holy smokes, how did I never see it like that
I mean it's only sort of incidentally that way, Edelgard nor Byleth are aware of this until much into their ventures, and Byleth never acts as or for the goddess in their route, not to mention Byleth's Crest Stone disappears in Crimson Flower's ending anyway.
It's no irony, for Edelgard never opposed the godess, but the church of said godess, its leaders and its tyrannical rulership
I think I remember Edelgard actually saying that she is ok with faith in the godess, and maybe indicating that she might be a believer herself
@@blackshaddow5005 I think it's Manuela's supports, where is shown that she has quite the negative view of the believers, assuming all of them do nothing other than wait for the goddess to do something for them, but later learn to accept that some people takes the spiritual support to be able to fight for themselves. (probably where you saw she saying that)
Byleth isn't the reincarnation of Sothis and Sothis vanishes before crimson flower and Byleth is freed from her gold fully after Seiros dies
@@richardshiflett5181 Sothis merges with Byleth, making Byleth a reincarnation of the goddess by having her power fully awoken inside them
Baby Dimitri and Baby Edelgard would be a fun dagger duo unit
Waiting for that duo unit
And then watch them destroy their older selves
Oh boy can't wait for them to break the meta on the next baby banner.
SO CUTE
Oh boy my bet its because it has Edelgard in it, is that they will dethone F!Edelgard
If only the Black Eagles route was 4 chapters longer, & let you actually PARTICIPATE in taking out the Agarthans. Wouldn't solve ALL of the route's problems, but could still salvage it in many ways. Edelgard potentially learning more about the Children of the Goddess & their history, confronting her about Jeralt's death, fighting her uncle, her reaction to Shambhala, her opinion on Nemesis, etc. Honestly surprised the DLC Pass never gave Black Eagles more story content, even if it had to be paid for.
Yeah.It's pretty strange that Edelgard never gets to learn the real history from the source(who was actually there).It would've made her a lot more sympathetic if she realized that Nemesis was no hero and that Rhea,for all her flaws and mistakes,had good reason to fight against him.
@@infinitedreamer9359 This is the irony where Rhea and Edelgard are actually parallel. Two people who are going to huge lengths to fight for their version of the right answer, and would make morally questionable decisions if that's what it takes. The difference with Rhea is just that she was portrayed more negatively throughout the story (the weirdness from just the start of the story, her "crazy" look, etc) that it makes it more obscured that Edelgard's pretty much the other side of the same coin.
@@toiletwater4064 Would have been better if Rhea was playable in SS. Just make the Sword of Seiros another Ragnell, and give her Aether.
Yeah considering how in other routes of the game, the alliance and the resistance army were able to take out those who slither in the dark in a single chapter and crashed their ambitions with the full of shamballa I highly doubt the empire would be given four chapters to deal with them.
@@infinitedreamer9359 Claude is the only one who learns the whole truth about everything when all three of them deserved to know.
Edelgard, Rhea and Dimitri have ALL lost their family in a gruesome way (by the same group of people), and have lost a part of themselves in their grieving. And unfortunately only Byleth and save/redeem them, and only one of them in a given route.
Regardless, of how controversial these characters are, I think we can all agree that these are all tragic characters with similar origins for their motives.
Yeah, they are
Yeah, they all need a hug and therapy.
@@johnathanedwards9054 A LOT of therapy
@@johnathanedwards9054 Seteth needs to be the therapist
@@bullseye5262 I am surprised that no one is mentioning a hug. What is wrong with a hug? They all need about as many hugs as hours of therapy.
Man Ghast you sure had to stretch the video thin to make it reach the 10 minute mark eh?
lmaooo
Ah the classic longform video comment
@@GobaGNon As someone that helped I HAD to post it
That reminds me, didn't 10 minute videos become heavily crapped on by the algorithm at some point? Are they still like that?
@@hanakizehhe9930 Hey
Out of all the characters Lysithea is the one who sympathizes the most with her.
Edelgard not only got a documentary. She got an HD remaster.
Claude is SEETHING. Still waiting for the sub twenty minute Claude vid.
Waiting for Claude to be the Skyrim of support sciences
Accurate. His personality is a funny one but the game literally tells you at the beginning that that's a facade. "His easy smile is striking, but that smile doesn't reach his eyes." Twenty minute Claude documentary, for sure.
And just out of spite, we get a 20:01 claude vid LMAO
:(
@@fumeknightofshovelry3901 ?
People have all these complex, 500-word essays on why one lord is better than another, and here I am like:
Edelgard: She's cool and small
Dimitri: He's nice and blonde
Claude: He's fun and chill
Is it possible to learn this power?
500 words is only two pages lmaooo
@@matmil5 not from TWSITD
I like all the house leaders but I prefer Edelgard and Claude.
I relate to them a lot better and they give me bi panic.
@@biandanxious3438 Claude was the catalyst for my bi awakening, also it was cool seeing a main lord who's brown.
Hanneman: "If everyone's super, no one will be..."
Nice Incredibles reference.
As I was listening to his voice, I had to try and figure out who it was...Dude's VA is Igor from the Persona games..
I liked Edelgard. I think, other than the fact that she gets the short short stick with her route, she's a really well done character.
Honestly, I can see why Edlegard felt she had to go the road she went. I think she felt betrayed by both the system and those who uphold it.
She did feel that way, and that' is consistent with reasons people have had in the real world for committing atrocities.
Edelgard aint even the only examples. All the houses have at least someone who suffers from the nobility or the way people worship Crests
@@Kris_King That's also one of the reasons why she fights against everyone too, because she has not only suffered personally but also witnessed the crest system fail several other people. Like Jeritza, and Dorothea, just to name two of the many.
there's no unfairness like trying to make fair what is inherently unfair.
Man her reasons for doing what she did is another reason why edelgard is my favorite fire emblem character(I know hot take and I love a lot of other characters as well)
I really wish CF wasn’t so rushed so we could have gotten more story development
There are many things that compound, Crimson Flower certainly is one of them.
Sadly this is not a problem present only on CF, all the routes on Three Houses suffer this problem.
@@davifelizardo4187
Crimson Flower is really fun if you are going strictly going for the gameplay value.
@@biandanxious3438 But still is 6 chapters long, Three Houses is a good game and an excellent fire emblem but it still have flaws.
@@davifelizardo4187
Agreed.
It’s quite ironic that the only time Edelgard wins is when she has the power of the goddess (byleth/sothis)
To be fair who would win, a person who has two sources of power to draw from, or a person with God literally fused to their soul?
The only time any of the 4 "lords" win are when they're allied with Byleth.
@@mitchelldorcas9687 Yeah but its extra ironic for her
My head canon is that they couldn’t hold the monastery without some religious backing. They instead put Byleth as the martyr that was the goddess, that Rhea rejected. When Byleth returns, the plans change to making a church that makes Rhea the false idol and to slowly adjusts people to a church slowly divorced from the state.
I would argue that she wins regardless of Byleth's choice. Her entire goal was to enact change, that happens in every route
Why am I nostalgic about this game I only started playing 2 years ago, I really want another fe game (and I hope it's good)
me too
Same
@Merciless Freak ...and? It's still one of Nintendo's main IPs
@Merciless Freak I mean sure it would be cool to get more of some lesser known nintendo franchises but I still enjoy fire emblem games so im still gonna hope for more but im not gonna be upset if we dont get more
Because they do a great job of characterizing. You really feel like you get to know the students in your house.
The scene were Byleth kills Edelgard had me shocked how brutal the protagonist is...
Rewatching the video just makes me sad... "I wanted... to walk with you--." The blade cut of her sentence and her life, emotionless the way a meteor falls through a cloud.
@@burakkaankarakoc3879 I have also heard about the price Bilet wants in turn for his services, you must provide him as many woman as he requests to satisfy his sexual desires. No really, I am not kidding.
@@johnathanedwards9054 Knowing this information, I am both more terrified of Byleth and have come to like them more.
Their heart doesn’t even beat
@@johnathanedwards9054 finally, a valid reason for the self-insert to be able to bang everyone
Breaking bad spoiler :
She was Hank.
Byleth was Jack.
I cried like Walter.
Man a Shambala episode leading after a "why the fuck have you been lying to us all edie?" episode would have DRASTICALLY improved crimson flower
"because the mole people had goddamn nukes and imagine how telling you about something like this would affect morale before taking on Rhea and Dimitri"
@@floricel_112 well yes that would be edelgards answer probably but the drama that would ensue would be really good in terms of character and story development, and would be a better epilogue than the "and they lived happily ever after uwu" ending
@@Paledomain I feel that would take away from the overall focus if her story, the removal of Rhea
@@golfer435 well thats not what i meant, the story would remain the same until the end, so the rhea arc would still be there. but the epilogue of the crimson flower says something around the lines of "edelgard, the professor and hubert dealt with the agarthans" in just a sentence, but i think it would have been better if we could play those parts of the story as well like in Verdant Wind, which would also give an opportunity to us to see Edelgard finally reveal her lies to her comrades and stuff
@@Paledomain and my point as more that it wouldn't fit in the story as it is built right now
I find it ironic that Rhea blocked the printing press, expecially when in the real world the first book to be spat out by Gutenburg’s printing press was the Bible.
Wth, pls don't compare the church in this game with our world vatican church.
They are totally different.
Rhea's driving force is her own trauma of genocide against her races.
@@fitriaamel438 Now I'm Italian, I literally come from a family of catholic believers. The similarities are staggering, not one to one, but they are more than enough to not call them "coincidence"
@@ilpuntodigf for the fact that Op mentioned Bible, it's just so wrong alrdy. The game doesn't even have the equivalent of that.
And no I don't see any similarities besides surface levels.
@@fitriaamel438 The Book of Seiros basically is a Bible because it tells stories of those who were significant to the history of its religion and has parts dedicated to it that outlines how its followers should act and worship the main deity.
Rhea blocked the printing press out of a justifiable fear that humans were apt to attempt genocide on her species if they found themselves in a position to do so (since they had done so in the past). She had a completely different set of circumstances and motivations than the IRL church of the 16th century in Europe.
Edelgard really made this game for me. One of the most fascinating characters in a video game and discovering different sides of her along with the other lords across various routes made this beautiful mess of a game work for me. I really hope in 10 years we get a remake where they give tlc to all the routes (and actually finish crimson flower).
Edelgard is def one of my favorite characters in the game. So rare to have a "villain" with this much depth rather than the usual cartoonish asshole emperors and not only that you can completely join her route. I like that in her supports with Constance she discusses what is essentially a republic and with Ferdinand they talk about free education for all, not just nobility. It's hard to fully call her a villain when ideologically she's a lot like the French Revolution or the American Revolutionaries
I more so see her as a antagonist then a villain
@@spaghetticondo.m9116 Yeah, someone allied with the TWSITD, which commit genocide is a lot like the revolutionist, when saying revolutionist, you refer to Robespierre? But I guess even Robespierre won't do so.
A politician support by Neo-NAZI and allied with Neo-NAZI, allowing Neo-NAZI do all their things, so that he/she can become the president and start a war to conquer entire Earth, just to achieve his/her goal to create a peaceful, equal, utopia world, and said he/she will dealt with these Neo-NAZI afterward, I guess that's you guys favorite politician, right?
That's quite make sense, while claiming how you guys love freedom, equality etc.,
but you know, to win, to achieve the goal, it is essential to have the support from these true villain, and in case to not provoke them before the ultimate victory, you just have to allow them do all the evil things. It just not my responsibility after all, I am the good guy who want to create a equal world.
She's Fodlan's Napoleon
She did say she's basically planning to lead a revolution multiple times, so she's quite literally a revolutionary. Imagine if the French emperor was the leader of the french Revolution basically.
@@spaghetticondo.m9116 antagonist is a good way to put it. Because of how strong her convictions are. She's willing to wear the mantle of villain but she is not exactly truely a villain. She accepts the burden of being a person that is To be hated by the world and have history revile her. it's why I don't consider her "redemption" her good ending, and see that more as part of Byleth's ending. Byleth needs to redeem her chosen Lord/Ally. Edelgard to get what she wants doesn't need redeeming and doesn't need current or future people's to like her to get what she wants. She doesn't even need to live in the better world she creates. it's a rare and potentially compelling but also dangerous character concept and I think it's pulled off well with Edelgard.
Ah yes, Hanneman x Manuela. Or as I like to see them, Edelgard's new parental figures.
Yo VALID
And better parental figures, at that.
@@TheBizzareBirb that’s…not a high bar to meet
@@yashkeshavpatnam1852 Hanneman is a better father figure than my dad ever was.
@@yashkeshavpatnam1852 Technecally the reason why Edelgard's father is so bad is because he's ill and has other people over his head preventing him from being a good father. From what we see of him it seems to me at least that he wished he had been able to be a better father but had strings that were stopping him from doing so.
Personally I'm glad I started Verdant Wind so I wasn't quite as biased about the Edelgard and Dimitri viewpoints in the community when I went into the other routes
I dont really understand how people get so bias. I did Azure Moon first then Crimson Flower but i made sure to play through CF without taking AM into thought. Each route is its only story and i feel people take too many bias into account
See, playing Verdant Wind prior to Crimson Eagle actually made me strongly biased against Edelgard. Because while she was talking about why she is doing what she does I was literally going “she’s wrong about that, that’s incorrect, oh she’s totally wrong, etc”
@@Rushboat yeah i can see that. Cause Verdant Wind is the route that tells you the real backstory of the relics crests etc and what Edelgard says is very misled. Likely from TWS lying to her
Honestly can’t stand eldelgard, I feel like if she pulled Dimitri and Claude aside and met with them in private with some evidence of her claims all this could’ve been avoided. And she probably could’ve gotten them on board for getting rid of the crest system too. It’s extremely annoying that she could’ve proved what the church did, what TWS in the dark did, what her family did. And instead went the route she did. Secondly if she really doesn’t like the whole crest society when she became emperor she could’ve enacted a lot of what she wanted bringing the people without crests on par with the people who do have them. At least in her own land anyway.
I like that she tries and destroy a clearly broken system but she just does it in the worse possible way.
Timestamps:
0:00 Introduction
3:45 Origins of a Dream Part 1: The Crests
6:31 Origins of a Dream Part 2: Blackened Heart
8:33 Origins of a Dream Part 3: Rise of the Flame Emperor
19:13 The Red Rose: Support Analysis
43:39 Crimson Flower Part 1: Dimitri
59:00 Crimson Flower Part 2: Rhea
1:14:21 Crimson Flower Part 3: Story Criticism
1:37:15 Byleth Part 1: Kinship of Flame
1:45:22 Byleth Part 2: The Ashen Connection
1:59:37 Conclusion
2:02:09 Closing Thoughts
Whatever your thoughts on Edelgard, I think everyone can agree she’s a better character than Thales or any of Those Who Slither in the Dark.
She's also a better character than any character in the game 💅
@@zant41 You're the reason Edelgard fans get a bad rep.
@@sophitiaofhyrule Then so be it. Let them eat cake.
@@zant41 Hah! Bravo. 👏
@@zant41 FACTS
I'd contest the idea that Edelgard is being motivated by a desire for revenge, given that she puts Ferdinand's father under house arrest instead of having him executed and she has a lecture question with Byleth where the preferred answer is to remove Rhea's political power, not actually harm her, but otherwise this is a really impressive overhaul. I don't agree with everything in it, but it's very well thought-out. Thanks for taking the time to do so much work on this!
I think she realises that to keep noble support she can't really go around executing any aristocrat that abuses their power. As for Rhea, stripping someone of their power shows a much more benevolent and fair rulership, so it's the better solution if you want to not make enemies and give them justification to go against you.
One thing that's incorrect is that TWSITD wanted Dimitri to survive. Gilbert says he found Dimitri more on the brink of death after the attack. They definitely wanted to kill him too, but there is a possibility they utilized his survival later.
This
I doubt that.
Whether Dimitri was meant to survive or not is anyone's guess, but the game does lowkey state a plan involving him was in motion.
@@moltz4866 he's going to be the future king of his territory and the mole ppl wanted conflict between all 3....
That's all there is to it. Dimitri was supposed to die but didn't; however it was little concern and later thales "used/uses" it to his advantage. Not unbelievable given their behaviour
Seems strange that Dimitri would be on the "brink" of death at all. If Lambert was decapitated, why not do the same with Dimitri? I wouldn't put it past the Agarthans to keep Dimitri alive on purpose. They just made it look convincing enough that Dimitri was a target so that when Gilbert found Dimitri, he would be "saved" from the event.
So basically, on all routes, the writers when it comes to characters are pretty skillful, but struggle with making a story?
kinda yeah. theres also rushing issues so some parts are them struggling and other parts them having to take away from the story to make deadline. its a shame
I pretty much feel this way. Imo the character writing is the best thing about Three Houses
I feel its a lot of patchwork. The character stuff is always grand, and the story stuff somewhat is too, but you often have to patch pieces together from the different routes for maximum effect. An odd feeling when a lot of variables can be different path to path and whatnot.
I also really think they shouldn't have allowed so many characters to get recruited. Like what Ghast mentioned about Edelgard not receiving much retribution from her deceptive habits, the recruitment system, if you recruited a lot of people, makes it feel very unpunished that she literally just deceived all of them (besides Hubert) and moments later most just join her cause anyway.
Especially in Edelgard's route, it would be a lot more powerful not to have that many students especially immediately after the reveal, and maybe have a combination of the impact of having to kill a lot of characters, or having to regain the trust of others.
@@sobacco7865 I think its a lot more dramatic/powerful if there is a mixture of students who join and who do not. Its just compelling to see all the various personalities and characters with there motivations choose various ways.
With that said, it doesn't bother me much, largely because its not uncommon for people to come together under one mindset with their peers. Be it for fitting in, or skewed perspectives. The game almost reinforces this on how characters can be swayed in various direction based on how they or others convince them.
Alas, I think there are cases where more characters should have been hard locked to paths based on their own personal beliefs. Some of them seem no brainer if they would or would not join Edelgard for example.
One thing that I appreciated when playing Crimson Flower is the time when I saw the Crest of Flames proc on Edelgard before I got the support conversation about her having that crest. I convinced myself I hadn’t seen that happen. It must have been a signifier of a different crest, or maybe I had seen it wrong? Or it was a glitch?
But no, she had the Crest of Flames! And that made her story and Lysithia’s make more sense, because at that point, I know that the group that did the Crest experiments on Lysithia had just left once they figured out she could have two crests, as if they were confirming something and then went on to something else. Turns out, they went on to Edelgard. So disturbing, really. But that was really well done.
A bit late to the party, but I kinda just got to play 3H a few weeks ago anyways.
Simply put, Edelgard became my favorite character quickly. Which is odd, since I played Crimson Flower last. But I really stopped up, took a double take and got surprised greatly by her death in Verdant Wind (my first playthrough). Even though she wasn't necessarily a "big" part of Claude's route, character-wise, there was definitely something extremely human in all of it.
She's flawed. She's not always as strong as she thinks. She's treacherous at times. I don't even at all agree with her path in any sort of way. But by all means, she's an amazing character. I really didn't expect that I'd like her that much.
Honestly, Three House suffers from overreaching in its story Crimson Flower tells a complete story yes but suffers from being limited because its focus was so spread out after the time-skip due to four separate routes. On the whole, confronting Edelgard thing I would like a moment where El explained the Insurrection of Seven and how much power TWSITD had in Empire, and how most of the parents of her housemates complicit in it and why she was doing what doing and for some great understanding between the group.
First of all, it's so cool that you took a great and interesting video that you weren't happy with and improved it. You clearly have a lot of passion for this, and it came out great.
Second of all, just gonna casually re-post my comment from the first iteration...
The great thing about Three Houses is that it's a tragedy caused by unwavering beliefs, so if you argue that either side is entirely right or entirely wrong, you are explicitly the villain in Three Houses.
Hey fellow man of culture and reason, how is it going?
Percisely
That is, I agree it was deliberate on the writing to make Edelgard do some stuff like fail to see the “humanity” in her enemies purely on their race. Still wish, like the reversal you bring up, stuff like this was actually implemented.
I found this video to flow much better and seem to have a much more even hand. Excellent work and its great to see consideration to make something better. Looking forward to whatever you choose to do next. Hope it was an excellent nap
Honestly, both her design and character is one of Fire Emblem's greatest. She's so complex.
And this is where the Claude fans just stand on the sidelines going "Well, I have nothing to say about this. Time to go end racism now."
End despair
As a Claude fan, yes.
The "end of racism" is unfortunately so underuse, imagine Verdant wind map on Brigid or Duscur
@@arkhamlerouge8450 Give me a Three Houses sequel after an FE4 remake where you deal with Slytherin in CF, rebuild Faerghus, including getting rid other 2000 plus thieves or something, and have a good deal of diplomacy with other countries, and rebuild Duscur in Dedue's memory, get Sreng and Dagda to stop attacking, maybe through, like, an Arena Ferox situation.
@@arkhamlerouge8450 I always thought that Claude would have been on better use if he has his own game where we can see him fighting for his goals instead of having that in the background.
i have a lot of things to say about el here but tbh i find it exhausting to talk about her in this fandom. all i can say is that wether people love her or hate her, no one can deny the fact that she’s a complex enough character to polarize the fandom with some saying she’s good and others saying she’s not. i have my own opinion but i’m not gonna say it. instead, i will say that i love that there’s a standout female lord in the franchise who isn’t one-note and generic good girl jrpg protagonist and also she happens to wield a freaking axe. it’s not every day that these things happen. also, dimitri is best boy and i’m a marianne simp
Based
Ppl who say that edelgard is one way evil or good fail to see the nuance her character delivers
Edelgard is easily the character that affected me the most among any other character in any piece of art.
As an author myself, I will say that the best ever character I've ever written is the one that was inspired by Edelgard von Hresvelg. As a tribute, I named this character Edelgard as well and the more I give her some depth, the more I'm happy to have created such a character.
If edelgard impressed you, you are a bad author
And I Beyer your character îs just as mediocre written as edelgard. Edelgard was honestly mediocre written, especially since the game didn't even try to make her dividend, since rhea was awfully written în The time skip. She barely îs mentioned în azure moon, she is an exposition bot în verdant Wind, and în crimson Flower rhea îs downgrade to an angry Karen with mommy issues. And edelgard lacks any reasons to dislike her other than "I like Dimitri better". There are thousands of characters that commited atrocities for a better future written way better than edelgard. But I guess you are that type of author who likes cute girls that are strong.
@@mihaimercenarul7467 Wow, that's a lot of words to say you're just an angry kid that likes to hate stuff he knows nothing about
@@mihaimercenarul7467 1 month and no answer. Damn, thats certified weak bait
@@of5606 aww look at The little boy.. You do realize he lost The argument by not replying, right?
Still in the process of watching!
You really said "peace was never an option 🦆🔪" I will say, though, I love your segment on Dimi/Gard and it bolsters your criticism of why Edelgard didn't reach out to him about this in the Battle of Tailtean from the first video. Really expresses the tragedy of the two being at odds regardless of route.
I actually had "peace was never an option" until I remembered the untitled goose game meme
@@Faerghast should've left it in 🦆🦆🦆
Honestly, my favorite thing about 3 houses is all 3 lords are actually pretty great... there were no real villians/heroes between the 3... only victims
same.
I love watching Edelgard spam raging storm against Rhea with multiple Aymr’s as you talk about how complex she is
Beautiful work! Edelgard deserves nothing less.
I love El as a villain who I can empathize with. Sort of like how I view Light Yagami, and Lelouch, or even Thanos in a certain view. Not in a edgy sort of way. But more of a "I totally understand where she is coming from" and "If I were in her shoes I would probably do the same"- way. I just get tired of listening to people trying to reduce her as the just "hero". We have a million just heroes, but we only get a villain like El once in a azure moon.
I love all three of my headstrong, depressed, scheming children equally.
To be fair, the fact that these argument always end up falling back on morality kinda tells you something. These aren't just characters, they are powerful examples of archetypes, clashes of philosophies in almost every way and differing ways to deal with trauma.
Dimitri succumbs to his trauma, but admits it, embraces responsibility and overcomes it. Edelgard internalizes her trauma and it drives her every action, yet, she doesn't become the trauma, she's wide awake knowing what she's doing to others and suffers greatly for it, but suffers in secret because even she sometimes questions if what she's doing is right, but can't think of any other way to fix the world, her own trauma (which she carries with her to a point that it's part of her identity) blinds her to the idea of a peaceful reform.
Isnt there also a rather high risk, that a peaceful revolution isnt something she would live to see anyways? Living on borrowed time or anything
It doesnt help that Rhea removes anything she sees as a possible threat to the way she is running everything.
All valid points. I always argue that like the other lords, Edelgard is fundamentally a lord that wants to look after her people. However she knows the darkest side of the corruption in Fodland and that “peaceful negotiations” did nothing to stop it. Instead, those negotiations were used as to hide the insurrection that stripped her father of most of his political power and to mediate the spread of technology by the church. Add that to knowing you will likely not live long, what can you do? Can you really trust a stranger, much less a rival lord, to carry out the reform you sought to make?
@@raphnoble808 on the flip side nothing good ever comes from the "destroy everything and remake it as I see fit" mentality as it is nothing more than control, arrogance, and narcissism. The prospect that any one character knows best is innately ruinous. It does get brought up to her that the world she would make is no different than the world she is in now.
Edelgard is my favorite character, to me she embodies conflict between humans the best and the sheer raw nature of violence that's almost always brought about by polarizing disagreements in ideology between the establishment and those who seek revolution. Revolutionaries were almost never not responsible for one atrocity or immoral act when it came to war either. Were there other options she could have taken? absolutely, were there other options that could have been taken by any given leader in our world to achieve the best outcome? absolutely, are leaders of nations still taking actions that are deemed immoral? absolutely, there are many notable examples of sheer hypocrisy and single mindedness in our world that serve as an example to what Edelgard personifies. The story already has a paragon being Claude. You can hate Edelgard and there's plenty of reason to hate her but in my opinion she's the most human out of all the characters when it comes to what most leaders have been throughout history.
Excellent video, I don't think I've ever seen an analysis of Edelgard that so clearly understands her
I love Edelgard but the "El did nothing wrong" mindset is silly.
El did nothing wrong
She fought for what she believed in, that’s not “wrong”
@@bullseye5262 That's a silly argument. Bad people fight for "what they believe in" all the time.
She's not "bad", but neither is she "good."
That's what makes her interesting.
@@puddin4884 Thank you. That person's logic can justify pretty heinous stuff.
@@puddin4884 interesting assumption but I never she was “right” either nor was I arguing lol. I love the internet how people create narratives out of blank statements, it’s endearing.
Happy Birthday, Edelgard!
Let’s pick apart your motives and morals! :P
Hey fellow Lewyn fan
sup
You have an awesome name and that makes me like you already.
As someone who loves Edelgard with all of her flaws I proudly say Crimson Flower is the weakest route. This was the first I've heard of a possible Shamballa chapter for Crimson Flower. Heck Edelgard has a more legitimate reason to go there than Claude does.
That make sense than Claude fight to Shamballa. One of the thematic of Three Houses is the importance of the truth. Silver snow and Azur Moon have a bitter ending because is your payoff to stay in the ignorance of the Fodlan history. In Crimson flower you have a more important part of the truth, but you miss major details from the history. Even if it was very frustrating, finish the game with a cold war against the true evil is the payoff to don't know all the truth. In Verdant wind we are in the quest of the truth, for this reason we destroy Shamballa AND fight Nemesis, the man behind the tourment of Fodlan, in the most joyful and epic fight of the game. This is our recompense to search and find this truth.
@@arkhamlerouge8450 which is why in my opinion VW is the best route simply because it feels the most forfilling
Yeah, I would have loved to see a CF that had more to it. Strange to say, I don't think they put ENOUGH effort into Edelgard's flaws. She kept having to tell you through script about how flawed she is and it's not shown with much subtlety, which is an advantage AM was given with better production and cutscenes where you can have a lot of different emotions shown at the same time in Dimitri, but Edelgard never really got the same chance (imo) -- besides just thinking after the fact about what emotions she may have been feeling.
@@fishnutz5196 And logically the route where you heard the less "unfullfiled" or other sad theme. But I don't consider Verdant Wind like the "best" route, more like the most satisfiying route
@@arkhamlerouge8450 thats true it all depends on what your after. If you want a deep dive into the lore i think VW is best for that. If you want a deep personal story then i think AM is your go to
Finally getting to watch this (I'm preparing for doctoral exams). As someone who did a blind run of Crimson Flower first, specifically aiming to S-rank Edelgard, even without the DLC and the things I now know about the game and story I loved Edelgard.
The issue, for me, is that a story that could do her justice and adequately address the injustices of which she is a part is simply not a story that Three Houses as it reached us has the capacity to tell. There is simply no way to treat her character fairly in any route without extensive, self-motivated inquiry and contemplation by the player, who can't pursue any of these unresolved questions by playing the game itself, as you point out so clearly.
Protect babygard tho for sure
I'm gonna just repost what I said before with a bit of revision.
My morals and ethics aside, Edelgard is a pretty great character as an antagonist with some neat moments when shes the protagonist.
Oh and this time for real, I look foward to you doing Claude and (hopefully Rhea) next. They are both great characters who deserve more attention.
I also forgot to add my addendum when I found out Ghast was gonna do Claude next.
Finally Ghast can talk about that time Claude defeated that wicked CEO.
For sure!
I hate it when people say *insert houseleader here* is bad/wrong/evil.
They were MADE to be morally grey.
@@biandanxious3438 Um...you misunderstood me then. I said morals and ethics aside. Meaning I personally do find Edelgard to be a villain, but I still think they are a good character. Just because a character is meant to be "morally grey" doesn't inherently mean you can only see them that way.
@@biandanxious3438 Yep. I don't entirely agree with Edelgard but I didn't entirely disagree with her views either.
@@justinianthe1st790
I’m fine with people having opinions.
But I’m not fine with people stating “facts” about how a house leader is evil.
@@biandanxious3438 idk what you mean. Are you saying people shouldnt act as though their belief that insert lord is evil is fact? If so I agree. They arent god, and even if they were, I decide what's right and wrong.
However I find character discussions like Edelgard great, cause they go in depth about a character as a whole. That's usually a sign of good writing.
These character discussions also do a good job of weeding out people who agree with ethics and morals such as Els. I dont like utilitarians who go that far. Especially those who unironically think she did nothing wrong.
That said she isnt the first or last character that does this. She is a another Lelouch, Arvis, and Lyon. Some other character will be too. I look forward to more characters like her.
I meant to do crimson flower first but then got locked into silver snow. And like the entire time I was like "Damn I wanted to walk with you too. But now I'm stuck with a sad dragon dilf"
I don’t think Dimitri knowing that edlegard had nothing to do with Duscur originally would matter, as even if he knew she initially had no involvement and still chose to align herself with those who killed both of their parents is kind of a shitty backstab no matter how you spin it. I think he would have gone crazy with rage against her regardless considering their previous relationship and though the betrayal wasn’t as deep as he originally thought, it’s still a massive betrayal
True, also I don’t think Dimitri believes that she personally masterminded it. He blames her because she was (albeit unwillingly and indirectly) responsible. The tragedy of Duscur was done to give Edelgard more power, he plays the clip of Thales saying so. 47:25 he says they were killed FOR her, he blames her because she knew what happened and still allied with them which Dimitri interpreted as her condoning, or at least tolerating, such a slaughter.
Still he proves to lack the ability to rule as he is not perceptive to see the right motives behind people, understand what actually happened beyond what seems obvious, cos a leader needs a strategic mind to be able to see through enemies plans. Funny this is literally the first thing Edelgard pointed out about him in the game. Worst he is blinded by his thirst for revenge, hence unable to think critically and accurately. He is also emotionally and mentally unstable. If he can’t lead himself right, how can he lead others?
For me I chose Edelgard from the start because I recognise her competency and her leadership skills, and strong conviction. Unlike most people who choose because one is more likeable or cool or tragic etc, I chose who I want to be my leader. She had all the reason to seek revenge too, but instead she looked at the bigger picture, instead wanting to work on a future where her people’s won’t ever have to go through such tragedy. She didn’t make it about herself, instead sacrificing her life for the people. That’s the Leader I respect.
i'm glad i watched the El story first. It feels like i know how interesting she is already, and we need this doc for the others to catch up. Great doc by the way, and i really appreciate it
I would honestly really love to see a critical analysis of Claude! I find him just as interesting as the other Lords and I'd love an indepth look at his character and motivations.
i feel like he should never have been added. seems like a third wheel.
*Edelgard's route really needed a paralogue in the first half where the nobility does something messed up for crests and the church does a coverup* to demonstrate some of the problems more overtly. *Edelgard also needed to spell things out more concretly.* A good point for that would have been by having her keel over and get very sick after Rhea's death and then having to come clean about her shortened lifespan and then tell Byleth alot more details as she asks him to finish the job for her, in case she runs out of time. Similar to how Claude explains his goals.
I mean... That's chapter 5. That's literally what happens in chapter 5. Miklan is a crestless would-be heir that was disowned by his father once his legacy was secure in Sylvain, who then stole his family's Relic and got transformed into a demonic beast. Rather than acknowledge this, Rhea quite literally tells you to stay quiet about it.
The first half of White cloud show how bad is the system : Zanado where we sent our dear young student kill guys, Lonato and the injustice create by the church, the order to execute the membres of the west church. And, obviously, the mission with Milan where you watch how the crest system and the lies of the church (hero relics) can break someone.
Bruh the entire first half of the game is to show how fucked the crest system is. Like, every unit with a crest has a support where they talk sbout their parents being pieces of shit
@@_supersemantic Kind of forgot about Miklan being a brother murdering maniac...
@@meetomeeto8271 Sylvain, Ingrid, Dimitri, Claude, Felix (who hates his dad, but for a different reason), also bringing up Casper as an exact opposite of what you said (he is fine with being crestless)?
You clearly put your heart into this one and deserve all the more support for having the balls to take a step back, re-evaluate your thoughts and rework this absolute masterpiece.
Happy to say I helped work on it with ya man it turned out freaking amazing!
Thanks buddy!
Love the video, I think the criticisms on CF is well-founded, but I really appreciate your acknowledgement of Caspar's possible involvement in calling out Edelgard's lie after Arianrhod. Some deserved appreciation for my favorite boy!
Edelgards route was my first playthrough of the game, I didn’t even know it could be missed unless you explicitly chose to side with Rhea in the tomb. Because she was my first route I was shown a horrifically tragic character rather than a monster who would do anything to win had I chosen to side with Dimitri first, and I think that contrast of her characterization is why I still love her as a character and why I am so upset that her route was so clearly cut short
I think that "uncle's strategy" refers to a total assassination attempt. Dedue saved Dimitri before he could be eliminated which would have put the kingdom in control of Agarthans like Cornelia. He was probably left alive because his cooperation with Dedue would make further attempts on his life too obvious or increasingly hard to pull off, as well as the fact that he was too young to be a proper king. This is backed up by the fact that the kingdom always joins armies with the church which would be a major detriment to the Agarthans' goals.
I love Edelgard so much.. she’s amazing and I understand why people hate her, but she definitely became my favorite lord. Her views are amazing, and I always go for her side. Albeit I love all the three houses lords.
Well said.
There is something you need to realize, even if Crimson Flower had more chapters similar to Azure Moon or Verdant Wind, it would possible to leave those loose ends remain untied. Your questions might still be there.
Edelgard sole purpose to deceive her house was really to further whatever agenda she has. Lying about Arianrhod, might be to as to not freak out her classmates. The only reason the Black Eagles follow her was because the professor did as well. I played Silver Snow as my last route, all they mention in Silver Snow is how they want to stop Edelgard. Probably because the professor wanted to stop her as well.
Your thoughts are really well received. I find Edelgard to be a very complex and driven house leader that I don't think Fire Emblem has seen before.
Your comments about bias are very accurate. Having played azure moon first my love for Dimitri was already pretty well set in when I played crimson flower. This isn't to say I didn't enjoy anything about her but I definitely found it harder to care and pay attention to her more positive aspects. Especially with the savior complex stuff that goes on in the Caspar and Linhardt supports. It almost came off as her just bothering my favorite characters lol.
Bias is undeniable on every side. But at the same time, I don't think bias alone explains why Edelgard is a divisive character. I went into CF expecting to love playing as the antagonist for once. And I love Hubert (and Jeritza), who are CF exclusive too. But there's something about how Edelgard was written that just comes off as ... annoyingly. Almost like it excuses all her actions and never allows her to face consequences. Which is kinda unlikable.
I think regarldess of how we feel about edelgard. The discourse and ability to talk about these characters for this long shows how good the character writing is in 3H.
So the way I've always viewed the three houses games:
Byleth with Sothis' power is experiencing every possible timeline divergence; not just the choice of which of the children they will be the teacher of, but which possible timeline they want to see through as the future.
Dimitri is all about preserving the status quo with subtle changes; the acknowledgment of the church is the reason why the kingdom of fargus got its power quite like how the Sun's light is reflected off the Moon, and what is the Moon without phases of darkness.
Claude is all about opening borders and finding new perspectives including breathing new life and change into the country but only as a passing unseen Wind.
Edelgard wanted to burn away all of the corruption of TWSITD who have been hiding under the stones of the church in order to make the future brighter for those who deserve it, much like Flowers growing after wildfires.
If Byleth does not choose any of those three futures, we get the cold comfort of the church as it was but now with Byleth at the helm, much like undisturbed Snow.
One of the worst things for Edie/Dima discourse is people taking what's said in their favorite route at face value
Saying that Arandel planned for Dimitri to start a war is a WAY bigger leap in logic than blaming Edelgard for Duscur...
In fact, it really doesn't make any sense... Given that Edelgard planned to attack long before Dimitri would have ever figured out for sure it was Arandel, the fact that Dimitri did research on his own, he wasn't "fed" crumbs any more than anyone else who investigated, and the fact that the coup that took place sided WITH the empire, had they simply successfully killed Dimitri, there would have been ZERO resistance from Faerghus, allowing them to focus all their efforts in the church and the Leicester Alliance.
Leaving Dimitri alive would be UTTERLY stupid... Had Dimitri died at Duscur, Edelgard would have won the war before Byleth ever woke up...
Maybe Dimitri got lucky
I share the same birthday with Edelgard :)
Happy birthday to both of you 🥳
@@BeeLy1011 Thanks Friend 😊
Nobody asked
Happy Birthday
@@bullseye5262 Thank you!
At long last it's out! You did a fantastic job with this revision, so you get my full support.
For longform content, this was something truly fun and engaging to listen to! I'm of the camp that supports Edelgard -- her hourglass was ticking and she fought for the world she wanted others to benefit from, which is incredibly selfless, and especially so given her limited lifespan. Sure she was a martyr to her own cause, but she never waivered in it and even accepted criticism along the way to help her more adeptly navigate her difficult path.
As someone who began with and adores the Golden Deer route above the others even after playing them, both this video and the one you made on Dimitri have aided in my growing appreciation for these characters. Thank you for all of your hard work!
Watching your first video and now the definitive version was a blast, and I sincerely thank you for the discussion you had about Edelgard, her characterizarion, and 3H's writing as a whole.
Almost 100% sure that Claude fans are the only people watching these kind of videos. Feels like his path leaves out so much juicy plot but I’m afraid I can’t deny Claude’s path feels definitive from a gameplay perspective. Narrative seemed to be Intelligent System’s second priority when making 3H. But the community enriches it’s narrative and I really enjoy the long videos like this. Im watching Dimitri’s next. Keep up the great work and hope that everything is going well with you
1:02:42 Tbh I feel like a lot of players do this too.
Anyway, you nailed it even more this time! While I think the concept of her character is phenomenal, and she has some very solid supports and moments in her story that humanize her a lot, I don't vibe with Edie as a protagonist as much as I want to, unfortunately. I find the dissonance of the BESF just going along with her after everything she did in White Clouds really hard to swallow. I love those guys, so them getting played like irrelevant yes-men in the main story just isn't it. And Edie straight-up lying to them about Arianrhod only makes that worse. And weakens her arc of opening up to others, as you mentioned. Since her enemies barely pose any military or moral challenge to her in CF, that element of her character becomes quite important, so it being weakened like that really hurts her, I feel.
I also don't really dig her and Byleth's relationship. You made a very good case for it, but for all its narrative substance, I find it hard not to see it as Edie swooning over a walking mannequin that's supposed to be you. It's kind of an issue I have with AM as well, but it's really notable in CF. It feels pandering and degrades some of my respect for Edie's character, especially since it's so based on Byleth being "superior" to her and how she makes such a big deal that it's only you she can open up to and rely on. Honestly, at some points it felt like the writers cared more about portraying Edie as your cute emperor gf than anything, which is.... Ehh. I still enjoyed CF, but stuff like that made me question things.
All that said, I LOVE her as an antagonist. Getting to oppose my own Lord because I disagreed with her in SS was an experience I'll never forget, her dynamic with Dimitri in AM is fantastic, and her sheer willpower, dominance, and forward thinking are hugely respectable
As somebody who adores Edeleth, I want to mention, there is another aspect to that pairing, that Ghast missed:
Edelgard sees herself in Byleth, someone who hides their emotions under a mask and is unable to cry. Apart, from her literally stating, that she thinks, they have similar personalities in her description of herself, this is demonstrated in the parallels between Byleth crying over Jeralt's death and Edelgard crying over Byleth seemingly dying, both signifying their respective masks completely breaking down for the first time.
Thank you for that bit about SS. That route is so overhated. Like in what game can you be aligned with a Lord to the point where you can straight up oppose them? I guess you can argue Fates, but that's different. Corrin has to choose an alligment. Byleth already sorta did at the beginning of the game, but now they have to test their loyalty. That was amazing. SS does make me appreciate Byleth as a character tbh. But they did need more work to truly be appreciated. At least for me.
I agree with you about Edelgard's relationship with byleth. Even if you side with her, you can't tell her things like 'putting caspar's dad in charge of the alliance remnant is a bad idea.' or 'no, destroying the alliance and kingdom is not going to make a better fodlan.' which is something that I felt was a big let down.
Edelgard is one my favorite characters in all of the fire emblem games. I can understand the path she took. Considering she's probably going to die young the only way to change something in that short of time is an extreme revolution. That's my opinion though. i like all the routes but edelgard is the most interesting to me
Thanks again for this legendary work on prob my fav character in fire emblem. Now all I need is a Remaster of 3H with all those missing answers and a polished CF route.
The sheer amount of toxicity surrounding Edelgard caused me to delete Twitter which was the best decision I've ever decided to do. However it also has led me to dislike 3H more than I would have. I like the game but it or rather toxic idiots ended up causing me more headaches than probably every other game. I couldn't say I enjoyed Edelgards character in the slightest without being screeched at so I simply distanced myself from the game and now have a bitter taste in my mouth anytime I try playing it. Thats why it took me so long to watch this great video. I just want to enjoy the games and characters in peace but I can't discuss it with hardly anyone without getting fed up.
Edelgard is my favorite character by far, and it angers me so much that she gets hate for killing. She killed strategically as a part of a war so LITERALLY CREATE DEMOCRACY and Dimitri killed indiscriminately in horrible ways for five years and fought to maintain imperialism, The caste system, and never knew about or dealt with TWSITD. Even though Arundel died, he wasn’t the organization, there were still leaders like Myson in shambala. The hate she gets makes literally no sense, and if you don’t agree with her, appreciate her as the near perfectly written villain. Sheesh
@@pedantickilljoy I agree completely. For some reason I find people try to bring politics into it which doesn't make much sense and try to call her a fascist clearly not knowing what they are. She's a really complex character. I wouldn't say she did nothing wrong however all 3 of the lords were wrong in their own ways. I also find it funny that Dimitri went around killing indiscriminately and his fans go "oh its ok he got better" the absolute hypocrisy. And like you said even if you don't agree with her there's no denying she is a well written character. I only wish that her route didn't get shafted like it did. 3H added a much appreciated moral grey after the cluster fuck that was "Corrin can do no wrong" of Fates.
@@pedantickilljoy I think the war orphans beg to differ. I doubt they elected Edelgard or any of her cabinet ministers.
I understand, I lived the same thing with Star wars... and that make me relativise the Three Houses fandom.
They are not fan, they are hooligans.
She led you into deleting twitter, true hero.
Great analysis-as someone who strongly resonates with dimitri’s ideals, this helped me understand and appreciate Edelgard’s character and motivations far better.
To me it seems to be the case that Dimitri values people over ideals, whereas Edelgard values ideals over people. Dimitri empathizes deeply with the experience of surviving (and saving others from) tragedy, so he’s committed to protecting people from meaningless pain and violence, even if it means preserving an asymmetrical system of the “strong” and “weak.” Edelgard also suffers through a serious tragedy, but processes it from angle of the Crest system being flawed. She sees her responsibility as liberating the world of that system, even if it means killing, deceiving, or betraying innocent people in that path.
Understanding both sides better only makes the plot more bittersweet. These two have both suffered tremendously, and are both heroes saving the world from the suffering they had to endure. Yet their different worldviews, convictions, and choices pit two people who would otherwise have been great friends as enemies.
You did a fantastic job on this. While I still don't like Edelgard or agree with her, you encapsulated a lot of my thoughts on her. Oh how I wish they had spent more time on her route and the game. Just a few more months spent polishing the gaps in her story might have made her the best Fire Emblem protagonist and antagonist ever. Really incredible work.
As a huge fan of both Edelgard and Dimitri, I never understood how people could bring themselves to hate one and love the other (usually hating Edelgard and loving Dimitri).
The irony is that both of them actually want the same things: To bring down the systematic oppression that weaker and lower class face. They simply see different things as the cause. Edelgard sees the Church as the oppressor (and TWSITD), while Dimitri sees Edelgard and pointless war (pointless to him) as the oppressor. They could both actually agree on the issue of Crest prejudice, as in Hopes Dimitri himself even says he also finds the Church and Crest system flawed and wrong.
I truly wished they could talk and find middle ground and learned each other’s actual perspectives because them as a team would be unstoppable. Dismantling the church (though ideally through showing people like Seteth, Flayn, Catherine, and Gilbert the harm the Church does and dismantling it mostly peacefully), working with Hanneman to allow Crests to be usable by anyone, and then taking on TWSITD together.
Crimson Flowers shortness, and not including the war against the Agarthans, make it feel like the route was an afterthought they added on afterwards.
I'm still very disappointed and upset that Crimson Flower didn't let us then go to destroy Those Who Slither In The Dark afterwards.
Dimitri not seeking peace in Crimson Flower: I'm not surprised. There's a throw away conversation with an NPC in the Monastery during Crimson Flower that talks about Rhea going mad after the war broke out, spouting nonsense. We know Rhea is a cold hearted person who is willing to do whatever she can to remain in power, and to get what she wants.
The Parle in Azure Moon is partly because Dimitri is being guided by Byleth, whom is clearly a force of good in both Edelgard and Dimitri's life. Rhea on the other hand is unrelenting.
That's also why Edelgard in Azur Moon isn't relenting either: She doesn't have the guiding light of Byleth on her side. But, this is also probably why Edelgard doesn't seek to parle too: Rhea's got Dimitri in her grasp. Dimitri is in many way's Rhea's Puppet.
Took me so long to play this game and I finished crimson route just to watch this and I loved it. The pros and cons of her character and story. You made me like her even more as a character
(GD gang here) Edelgard is one of, if not my favorite, antagonists in the franchise due to how sympathetic she is. Maybe its my bias from having played Verdant Wind first, but I find myself understanding where Edelgard is coming from even though I disagree with her methods. Your comments about the story and missed potential for Edelgard to be held accountable by her own allies pretty much sum up my feelings exactly. While she is a top tier FE antagonist for me, I cannot like her as a protagonist due to these issues. She never faces consequences or even just a simple confrontation over her connections with the argathians and the deception of her supposed "trusted" allies in the Black Eagles.
The first revolutions in our world from Feudalism to Liberalism were not peaceful. The feudal lords did not wish to give up their absolute power. Edelgard's revolution seems to have gone far smoother than the French revolution.
@@ericamborsky3230 did it though? We never fully get to see what happens after the church (which has been the society standard for 1,000 years) is suddenly ripped out from under people.
That creates a tremendous power vacuum, and the fact that after all was said and done, that she has the nerve to "step down" and absolve herself of filling that vacuum proves that Edelgard has a childish mentality and outlook on life, and was unfit to lead and rule in the first place. She had a bloody tantrum that cost needlessly large numbers of lives because she had no firm, factual leadership qualities outside of wartime. This means her dissatisfaction manifested as her lashing out easily, and making multiple poor political, tactical and economical decisions, and creating a rift between citizens of every nation.
(Plus, I don't see her enacting a plan to help those less fortunate victims of her war that were barely sustained by the church; just "stabalizing" Fodlan, which puts it in an incredibly vulnerable. And highly volatile state, ripe for another war).
Ultimately, what she did was entirely too hasty. I guarantee you, her actions would not create a lasting peace. It would be fleeting, and war would ravage absolutely everything a few years afterwards.
@@kaitoudark1
There's not a chance in hell that Edelgard created lasting peace. In CF, you can potentially kill Seteth, Flayn, Claude and Hilda while also killing Dimitri and Rhea. Because of this, you can easily picture a situation where remnants of the church, Faerghus, Leicester and Almyra rebel against her afterwards. Especially when you take into account that Faerghus and Leicester fought wars of independence to earn their own freedom and sovereignty, why would they want to become part of the empire again?
@@l.n.3372 things seem to be peaceful in the epilouge.
@@jkarma3356 There were wars and rebellions. She just won't live to deal with them due to her short life span.
First playthrough was Crimson flower for me. And I loved it.
Mostly got it because I'm a loot goblin that spent AGES hoovering every piece of bait and lost items I could get my hands on.
This video has reinforced a few conclusions I drew after (finally!) beating all 3 paths.
Firstly, if you're playing the game for the first time, you absolutely should pick the Crimson Flower path first. If for no other reason, it makes the twist that Edelgard was the flame emperor more gutting because you get to know her and trust her, and being on her side for that first playthrough makes it all the more tragic in the other paths where you are forced to kill her.
Secondly, her character is goddamn fascinating, and it's a crime that her route (which is the most unique of the four) is also the shortest. Literally the criticisms you brought up about how her deception never caught up with could have been fixed with one chapter. Here, I'll write it right now:
"Edelgard is about to fight Rhea after killing Dimitri, but then more Javelins of light drop. El realizes that she has to take care of Thales now (not later/off-screen), and her friends ask why, since they think it was the church who dropped those bombs. Edelgard confesses it wasn't them, and her friends abandon her. Suddenly Edelgard is more alone than she's been, and you have to fight the battle in Shambala with just a small group. But then, mid-battle as things go bad, they come in as reinforcements, and it's glorious. Power of friendship and all. Then, you go fight Rhea, and the game ends as it does."
It wouldn't impact the pacing, it would address virtually all of the issues you listed, you wouldn't even have to create that many new assets since the map is in the other paths. All you need to do really is record some more lines. You could even still keep that final fight as it was.
Anyway, the only other criticism I have that you didn't bring up is that it feels weird to me in the Verdant Wind path that you still end up killing Edelgard. To be honest, Claude felt basically useless in every other path except his own. I was hoping his path would be him trying to end the war without Edelgard and Dimitri killing each other, or at least playing them off each other to gain an advantage. But no. The path is virtually a clone of "Silver Snow", albeit with a much more rousing and climactic ending.
Interestingly enough the goddess did end up hearing edelgards’ prayers because no matter what route, Fodlan is heading towards a new age in prosperity of the people.
I would love too see an updated version of this with the three hopes Edelgard
Whoa a youtube video with DLC nice
Edit: I agree with a lot of the new additions to this version aswell as the general flow of the video
10 out of 10 would watch again
I find it funny that Edelgard wants to take down the church of Seiros, but falls in love with someone who essentially is the goddess.
It is funny and ironic. But even more ironic is that Edelgard would see Byleth as the exception to her rule.
she does not hate the faith just rhea.
Awesome work! Edelgard is one of the most fascinating characters in Three Houses, which is why it sucks that her route felt less fleshed out compared to the other three.
edelgard is literally pining for Byleth every route and obsessive about him
Your deleted video on Edelgard was my favorite video of yours. This one definitely exceeds it's predecessor.
Ah, it looks like the first big change in the video (from the first version) is in relation to Dimitri. Yeah, it seems like the Edelgard-Dimitri conflict is at the heart of the conflict between fans or haters of the characters, as well.
I think the whole "peace was never an option" thing is something that could've been better seen if the scene had a cutscene.
Or, incidentally, if Silver Snow had a different endgame. Maybe on that route, deposing Dimitri wouldn't have happened quite the same. TWSITD could've rallied behind Cornelia after Edelgard's death, with them using a still alive Dimitri as a puppet, bloodlusted but unfulfilled.
And then there's the addition regarding Rhea and Edelgard's stances on the faith. Tbh, as a person of faith who understands Edelgard's ideals, this anti-theist does bother me a bit. It's not as bad as it could be, but it's still a limiting factor in the story. The story might have been more logical, but less complex, if she actually put more priority on beating TWSITD. Once the pro-empire Alliance parts joined (either after Deirdru, or if the route was changed to have such a thing happen earlier, such as if she was working on those alliances with people like Count Gloucester pre-war), that could've been a good time to be more honest about the threat the Agarthans are (especially considering Arianrhod). She could've had the power to oppose them without a post-game secret war.
It's been years, but Edelgard still remains in my memory banks. Great work on the video!
I love Three Houses for creating these kinds of discussions. All three of the main lords are both admirable and reprehensible in different ways (except maybe Claude, he's mostly just a good guy) and there's really no right or wrong answer for which will create the best Fodlan.
1:50:57 I would agree if it wasn't for the fact that literally almost the whole Black Eagles treat Edelgard as a classmate and a friend (see: Caspar and Linhardt. __Specially__ Caspar), not as an unreachable princess. I will use Caspar as an example here because he is the best suited for it - but his support with Edelgard shows just how little he cares for her title, and treats her informally and as a classmate. If Edelgard decided to be herself in front of anyone, Caspar would be the least person to judge her for doing so (he doesnt care she is the imperial princess or a noble, he cares about character first and background second).
If you replace Caspar for Byleth it wouldn't make much difference, except for the fact that Caspar doesn't command Edelgard - he fights __alongisde__ her, as an equal, as a comrade. And honestly? I think that's more compelling than what the writers tried to accomplish with Byleth.
I'm using Caspar as an example, but I'm pretty sure Dorothea and Linhardt can fulfill her need for emotional fulfillment as well. It's not that Byleth is special or perfect for Edelgard, but that the game pushes that narrative, pushes Edelgard to rely on Byleth only instead of her "friends" (the black eagles)
I come again to this video after finalizing Crimson Flower. I usually watch your support science videos for self indulgent reasons (those being: which are the best pairings in FE), so I was waiting in this video to see which Edelgard pairing would be the best for her in your opinion- and apparently that answer was Byleth (but I shouldn't be surprised, this game pushes the Edeleth agenda too hard, you want it or not). I believe I said this in the previous version of this video, but its very difficult to me to see Byleth being the perfect partner for Edelgard (or for pretty much anyone) due to their lack of personality.
But despite this, I really liked your video! After playing black eagles, I understand more of what you are saying here. This video made me have some things of the story in perspective (as well as understanding more of the story in general. CF is very wonky in its writing)
@@prospitdreamer
The game definitely and unfortunately pushes the Byleth/Edelgard ship too hard. But even worse, it fails to understand that Byleth didn't really change Edelgard for the better. After all, what is different? She still starts a war. She still invaded and conquered. She still doesn't trust the Black Eagles enough to share the truth with any of them. And she still ignores alternative methods in favor of her extremist tendencies. It's hard to say how Byleth being there actually made Edelgard better. The only thing it did was allow her to actually win the war for once.
I already posted talking about my appreciation for the work that went into this project, but I definitely want to post my thoughts as to why I felt this video was such an overall improvement from a video that I already thought was all around pretty excellent.
I liked how in this version, Crimson Flower as a route is not immediately presented as bad and is instead portrayed as lacking and flawed. I also appreciated the acknowledgement in this version that the main theme of Edelgard's route is conviction. By clearly outlining that CF is about Conviction and not Redemption, it becomes easier to understand the point being made about a lack of reflective "recognition," moments in this story. The first version did not make the main message of the CF route clear and as such it was easy to assume that the major critique of CF was that it does not redeem Edelgard's character when that was never the point of the route to begin with. I also appreciate the nuanced breakdown of the Dimitri and Rhea sections in this video whereas in the previous version there were sections they gave off the feel that Dimitri was 100% the victim in the King of Delusion scene and that Rhea did not do anything to wrong Edelgard.
Finally, I am SUPER thankful this version talks about how a lack of a Shambhala/Those Who Slither in the Dark conclusion to CF hurts not only the storytelling but Edelgard's characterization. If there had been a confrontation with TWSITD, it would have necessitated the reveal of Edelgard, Hubert, and Byleth's deception of the Black Eagle Strike Force and would have definitely been a great moment for everyone to admonish the trio for not trusting them with the truth behind Arianrhod's destruction. I still think things could have worked out story wise as Thales could have served as the route's true final boss in a manner similar to Nemesis where you would have had to defeat powerful crest powered automatons in order to weaken Thales before eventually having to rush to defeat him before he destroys Shambhala with the Javelins of Light.
Fascist has completely lost its meaning: it's just a word people use to describe someone they don't like. And there's a difference between "villain" and "antagonist".
Facts
There's still clear meaning to the word Fascist.
People who censors the truth, people who shuts down discussion because they disagree with what is being discussed, people who are against free speech, people who dox others, ... etc.
Those people are fascists.
Yeah it's sad that the word has such a negative connotation nowadays
Thank you for the video! It was well thought and investigated. Initially, Edelgard's character and route seemed unappealing to me, assuming immediately she was a villian. Watching your video, I'm reminded that assuming things about the others is a stupid thing to do, and that I should totally go on a more welcoming outlook in life. Thanks again, absolutely subscribing
Also to the whole Edelgard is in love with Byleth and her getting the full Rei near-canon LI treatment and song. She is still the only lord to have both gender S supports since Crimson Flower pretty much is like Edelgard is absolutely in love with them