Great information as always, thank you. Typically I have always done 32" for 8' ceilings and then add 1/2" per foot over that depending on the homeowner and space for installation.
Brent, great info -- and enjoyable, too -- as, of course, are all your presentations. I'm a HUGE fan of yours. The depth of your knowledge is truly encyclopedic. My only observation is that most folks insist there is no "coat" in wainscot; they say "cot" -- as in something to snooze on. Wainscot -- rhymes with bot, got, lot, dot, hot, jot, not,.... "I told that sot, 'I want wainscot, not Wayne's goat.'" Cheers, mon ami!! Please keep'em coming. 🤩
Very interesting. Quite timely in that we are about to put in wall panelling into 2 separate rooms. One will be the entrance hall (10’ x 6’ and 8’ high?) with the current thought being much like the Arts and Crafts panelling you showed - perhaps stopping 12” or 15” from the top. The other is a rear corridor from which the service rooms lead. It’s perhaps 15 yards long and the current thought there is panelling stopping more like 3’ from the top. Within the panelling will be a “frieze” of (CNC) carved motifs perhaps 6’ tall. Topping the panelling will be a trim cap. Because of the position of both rooms, we would struggle with dark woods and we are looking at an antique ivory paint cover. So, my answer to the height of the mid rail is wherever it looks right for the style of room you have.
read your stuff on this years ago .loved it and wanted to learn more .Ends up I am still at mercy of the clients or job . Drawings put a chair rail at 36" . I put up one section and clients nixed it .Just wasn't right . Just finished one .I held boards at different heights till client was happy .It is at 46" .Bathroom ,9' ceiling ,clear VG fir . I really like it, fits fine . I avoid that 36" though .track house height .
Well, my recommendation to you is the same thing I tell Richard on our podcast: you are the seasoned professional in the room, don't ask tell. Tell them what height it needs to be at, explain the rules and reason and educate your client. We are educating our client all the time. It is an ongoing process. Good luck.
Brent rocks, only now I consider myself an architect....well, pseudo. I'm not totally crazed. But for instance,...if I had a 15' ceiling I might prolly do a 36" chair rail. Prolly not but if it brought unity to the space or dictated coverage for tasks then prolly...🔥✌
"The use of the dado raises the chief wall-decoration of the room to a level with the eye and prevents its being interrupted or concealed by the furniture which may be placed against the walls. This fact makes it clear that in all well-designed rooms there should be a dado about two and a half feet high. If lower than this, it does not serve its purpose of raising the wall-decoration to a line above the furniture." -Edith Wharton and Ogden Codman Jr., "The Decoration of Houses," 1897, pg. 37
I've become a total Brent Hull TH-cam groupie... I think I've watched (and maybe rewatched) every video. I came across this channel because I'm thinking about getting into interior/exterior finish and siding work and, since I'm into history, I find the architecture talked about here to be very interesting. Makes me want to burn my house to the ground and start from the bottom. Whoever built it was a million miles from the knowledge base on this channel.
This may be a dumb question, but I have no formal education whatsoever on architecture/classical schemes. As far as the optimal chair rail placement being at 1/4 or 1/5 the height of the wall, is that starting at the top of the baseboard, or from the floor up regardless of baseboard height?
Great question. You are measuring from the floor up. Thus, as I also think you may be asking, you need to manage the height of your base so it doesn't get too tall. Thanks!
I left comment on other video. Still looking for how to approach wainscoting in a room with uneven ceiling height. My entry brings you in at an 8’ ceiling height and your looking at the wall with 11’ ceiling when you enter.
yes that I realize, my question is I am referring to to my living room which ceiling on one side of room in 8’ and angles up to 11’. So 2 ceiling height within the same room. So which height is what you reference to establish height of wainscot
The traditional French solution is different. By the time of Louis XV and XVI they settled on putting the "chair rail" equal to either the opening of fireplace, or the top of the mantel. You'll see this over and over in French rooms from the 1700s. This was the case regardless of room height. See the Madame du Barry apartments for a low ceiling version.
In case anyone is curious why the French did this, they knew the fireplace is the focal point of every room, and thus wanted the rest of the room to emanate from the focal point, rather than the paneling and fireplace pretending each other do not exist or only loosely corresponding. This creates a harmony with the lines of the dado/wainscot wrapping continuously around the room uninterrupted.
Chair rails need to be measured at the height that the chair damages the wall. This is important in modern commercial offices, unless you want to repair your waiting room walls. But your point is well taken that in classical design, it is not called a chair rail and this is an important concept. It should be called what it is; a surbase, dado, or wainscot cap.
I want to do my living room; 8' ceiling and the bottom of the trim on the windows is 24"..... What do you think? My house is 1934 small town midwest btw, it reminds me of a small farmhouse. Thanks!
Hi Brent, I'm looking at Batty Langley's 1740 diagram "To Proportion Cornices to Rooms of Any Height, Pl. 76" and it looks like it says regardless of room height the chair rail is always at 2 feet 10 inches (34 inches). What are your thoughts on this?
I'll need to look at it but realize many of these plan book authors had ideas for chair rail heights. I saw an master's thesis at Winterthur that did a comparative study of chair rail heights from 10 different authors. They varied from 24" to 32" . I stick to my belief that it varies and changes based on room height. Thanks.
How do you tie together a kitchen with 36" counters that's open to dining room or living room? Do you avoid a chair rail? Make them clearly distinct and different with some sort of transition?
Good question, I either don't use a chair rail or keep it low and ignore the counter height. Of course it will depend on the room but those are my general rules.
Sorry, Brent is completely wrong about this! How you actually determine chair rail height is you grab a piece of molding and hold it up on the wall. Next you ask the lady of the house how high she wants it to be! If you don't do that you will probably be moving it again later! 😂😂
I’ve been going 34” high as it will be just under the counter top if it runs into a cabinet and it kinda ties it together… I’ve mocked up lower heights, but most owners seem to like the 34” height no matter how high the wall is… then usually 5-1/4” base with picture frame faux wainscoting with a 4” spacing on all sides… I know it’s probably not proper, and I have tried to explain proper height, but what are you gonna do?
Great information as always, thank you. Typically I have always done 32" for 8' ceilings and then add 1/2" per foot over that depending on the homeowner and space for installation.
Great tip! I like it. Thanks.
Brent, great info -- and enjoyable, too -- as, of course, are all your presentations. I'm a HUGE fan of yours. The depth of your knowledge is truly encyclopedic. My only observation is that most folks insist there is no "coat" in wainscot; they say "cot" -- as in something to snooze on. Wainscot -- rhymes with bot, got, lot, dot, hot, jot, not,.... "I told that sot, 'I want wainscot, not Wayne's goat.'" Cheers, mon ami!! Please keep'em coming. 🤩
I miss-pronouce many things. thanks for the note.
Very interesting. Quite timely in that we are about to put in wall panelling into 2 separate rooms. One will be the entrance hall (10’ x 6’ and 8’ high?) with the current thought being much like the Arts and Crafts panelling you showed - perhaps stopping 12” or 15” from the top. The other is a rear corridor from which the service rooms lead. It’s perhaps 15 yards long and the current thought there is panelling stopping more like 3’ from the top. Within the panelling will be a “frieze” of (CNC) carved motifs perhaps 6’ tall. Topping the panelling will be a trim cap. Because of the position of both rooms, we would struggle with dark woods and we are looking at an antique ivory paint cover. So, my answer to the height of the mid rail is wherever it looks right for the style of room you have.
For the most part Yes. I would say it depends on the experience of your eye. Thanks.
Great stuff as always Brent! Thank you for explaining the importance of proportions of any space. That’s why they call them rules of thumb.
Right on! Thanks for watching.
Outstanding, always so helpful to get visual proportions right.
Agreed!! Thanks.
Can't agree more. Your environment affects your mood, even without you knowing.
Such a helpful video. Classical proportions so beautiful.
Glad it was helpful! Thx.
read your stuff on this years ago .loved it and wanted to learn more .Ends up I am still at mercy of the clients or job . Drawings put a chair rail at 36" . I put up one section and clients nixed it .Just wasn't right . Just finished one .I held boards at different heights till client was happy .It is at 46" .Bathroom ,9' ceiling ,clear VG fir . I really like it, fits fine . I avoid that 36" though .track house height .
Well, my recommendation to you is the same thing I tell Richard on our podcast: you are the seasoned professional in the room, don't ask tell. Tell them what height it needs to be at, explain the rules and reason and educate your client. We are educating our client all the time. It is an ongoing process. Good luck.
Brent rocks, only now I consider myself an architect....well, pseudo. I'm not totally crazed.
But for instance,...if I had a 15' ceiling I might prolly do a 36" chair rail. Prolly not but if it brought unity to the space or dictated coverage for tasks then prolly...🔥✌
LOL, not totally crazed! Thanks for watching.
@@BrentHull 🤓
More great content. Please keep them coming.
Thanks for watching and commenting.
"The use of the dado raises the chief wall-decoration of the room to a level with the eye and prevents its being interrupted or concealed by the furniture which may be placed against the walls. This fact makes it clear that in all well-designed rooms there should be a dado about two and a half feet high. If lower than this, it does not serve its purpose of raising the wall-decoration to a line above the furniture." -Edith Wharton and Ogden Codman Jr., "The Decoration of Houses," 1897, pg. 37
WOW! Thanks so for the quote. You rock.
I've become a total Brent Hull TH-cam groupie... I think I've watched (and maybe rewatched) every video.
I came across this channel because I'm thinking about getting into interior/exterior finish and siding work and, since I'm into history, I find the architecture talked about here to be very interesting.
Makes me want to burn my house to the ground and start from the bottom. Whoever built it was a million miles from the knowledge base on this channel.
There are a lot of houses that should be burnt down, mine included. LOL. Thanks for watching, I'm glad you're enjoying it.
This may be a dumb question, but I have no formal education whatsoever on architecture/classical schemes. As far as the optimal chair rail placement being at 1/4 or 1/5 the height of the wall, is that starting at the top of the baseboard, or from the floor up regardless of baseboard height?
Great question. You are measuring from the floor up. Thus, as I also think you may be asking, you need to manage the height of your base so it doesn't get too tall. Thanks!
I left comment on other video. Still looking for how to approach wainscoting in a room with uneven ceiling height. My entry brings you in at an 8’ ceiling height and your looking at the wall with 11’ ceiling when you enter.
The wainscot height doesn't change. It is consistent through both spaces. That is my opinion without seeing yours.
yes that I realize, my question is I am referring to to my living room which ceiling on one side of room in 8’ and angles up to 11’. So 2 ceiling height within the same room. So which height is what you reference to establish height of wainscot
It is somewhere between 28-32". Good luck.
The traditional French solution is different. By the time of Louis XV and XVI they settled on putting the "chair rail" equal to either the opening of fireplace, or the top of the mantel. You'll see this over and over in French rooms from the 1700s. This was the case regardless of room height. See the Madame du Barry apartments for a low ceiling version.
Thanks, for sharing.
In case anyone is curious why the French did this, they knew the fireplace is the focal point of every room, and thus wanted the rest of the room to emanate from the focal point, rather than the paneling and fireplace pretending each other do not exist or only loosely corresponding. This creates a harmony with the lines of the dado/wainscot wrapping continuously around the room uninterrupted.
Chair rails need to be measured at the height that the chair damages the wall. This is important in modern commercial offices, unless you want to repair your waiting room walls.
But your point is well taken that in classical design, it is not called a chair rail and this is an important concept. It should be called what it is; a surbase, dado, or wainscot cap.
Thanks!
It never occurred to me that chair rail could be so interesting.
I know right! Thanks for watching.
I want to do my living room; 8' ceiling and the bottom of the trim on the windows is 24"..... What do you think? My house is 1934 small town midwest btw, it reminds me of a small farmhouse. Thanks!
Hmm, that is hard. Moldings should be in scale with the room, smaller. The key will be unifying the space and creating proper hierarchy. Good luck.
Hi Brent, I'm looking at Batty Langley's 1740 diagram "To Proportion Cornices to Rooms of Any Height, Pl. 76" and it looks like it says regardless of room height the chair rail is always at 2 feet 10 inches (34 inches). What are your thoughts on this?
I'll need to look at it but realize many of these plan book authors had ideas for chair rail heights. I saw an master's thesis at Winterthur that did a comparative study of chair rail heights from 10 different authors. They varied from 24" to 32" . I stick to my belief that it varies and changes based on room height. Thanks.
How do you tie together a kitchen with 36" counters that's open to dining room or living room? Do you avoid a chair rail? Make them clearly distinct and different with some sort of transition?
Good question, I either don't use a chair rail or keep it low and ignore the counter height. Of course it will depend on the room but those are my general rules.
I would think it depends on high the ceiling is
Agreed.
@BrentHull what height would you recommend for craftsman?
Same rule applies. Proportions are proportions, the look good in all stiles.
Funny how my bedroom ceiling height of 180" divided by 5 to get 1/5 equals 36"...
Yep. Huge bdrm cieling. BTW
Sorry, Brent is completely wrong about this! How you actually determine chair rail height is you grab a piece of molding and hold it up on the wall. Next you ask the lady of the house how high she wants it to be! If you don't do that you will probably be moving it again later! 😂😂
Haha, very funny. And true. Thanks.
I’ve been going 34” high as it will be just under the counter top if it runs into a cabinet and it kinda ties it together…
I’ve mocked up lower heights, but most owners seem to like the 34” height no matter how high the wall is…
then usually 5-1/4” base with picture frame faux wainscoting with a 4” spacing on all sides…
I know it’s probably not proper, and I have tried to explain proper height, but what are you gonna do?
Thanks, sometimes clients just don't get it. Keep up the good work.
👍👍👍👍🙏🙏
Thanks!
It's ALWAYS 32"
The word is pronounced wayne scott, not wayne's coat.
potato, potato.