I've never really thought of the IRS as a true line source. The rows of tweeters and midrange drivers inevitably have gaps between the top of the radiating area of each driver, and the bottom of the radiating area of the next driver, and this will lead to some degree of acoustic lobing and comb filtering along the array. True line sources are found on some electrostatic and ribbon speakers like Magneplanars, Apogees and Martin-Logans.
No, the Infinity IRS V is not a true line source, but they function as one. The acoustic center of the square drivers is much closer together than the voice coils of round drivers. The comb filtering between drivers will average out and they will integrate, as long as you're not sitting too close.
@@BruceCross I still haven’t fully understood comb filtering to know what it does both near field and at larger distances. I was thinking of building a poor man’s “line source” using say 16 3” or 4” full range cone drivers but friends warned me about comb filtering above say 3500-4500Hz depending on the diameter of the driver. The only use of a line source I see now is for below 300hz where an array of 8” woofers can be used. This way comb filtering is above the crossover frequency of these woofers.
@@navinadv Everything I said is based on "GR-Research" videos, so please see Danny's channel. If multiple cone drivers are playing the same frequencies, the voice coils are too far apart to create a line source. Baffle step loss is another factor, the frequency where drivers stop beaming forward and start become omnidirectional, where drivers playing the same frequencies start interacting (comb filtering). Don't ask me how the crossover compensates for the beaming frequencies being louder. Crossover points are important, too. I like your woofer line array if the baffle isn't too wide, but then it limits output. Sigh, I understand a little bit of theory, but I'm not a speaker designer.
@@BruceCross oh I’m not a speaker designer either, and I wasn’t trolling. I was referring to comb filtering that would occur if the center to center distance between drivers was say 100mm. Assuming the speed of sound is 343000mm/s the combo filtering would start at 3430hz for 2 4” drivers. Baffle step is a function of the width of the baffle and assuming the baffle is also 100mm wide yes then baffle step would also begin around 3430hz. With larger drivers operating lower say 4 8” woofers reproducing (or tasked to reproduce) 30-300hz comb filtering would not be significant but as Danny explained with several smaller full range drivers operating out to 20,000 how does one mange the comb filtering? How do the EMIM type drivers used in the IRS avoid comb filtering? Could we DIY’ers replicate this using planar drivers like the B&G Neo 8?
@@navinadv No, I didn't think you were trolling. I'm sorry, you could easily be more knowledgeable than me. Yes, 3430 Hz for 4" drivers sounds about right. The comb filtering can't be managed with smaller drivers, but it averages out. A line source requires square drivers, since they won't behave as a continuous driver unless the acoustic centers are close enough. Also, a lot depends on how high the crossover point must be to the upper driver. If it's too high, it increases comb filtering. I don't know about the B&G Neo 8.
As a kid the first pair of speakers I purchased were the Design Acoustics PS(Point Source)10's. In the mid 80's at about $300./pr (I purchased the optional metal stands as well about $60. extra)they were certainly an upgrade to what came with many packaged stereo systems at the time. However they were a far cry from these Infiniti Reference series speakers.
I've never heard of that before. I wonder if he got that correct. 🤔 Usually in a line source (or line array) there's power tapering>>> the result is that the middle of the array plays slightly louder than both the top and bottom of the array. But I've never heard of a configuration where the middle of the tweeter array plays the highest of the frequencies.
I dont think I'd ever get bored with any music if I had IRS V's @ my disposal. A vintage set of Infinity's are on my bucket list without a doubt. The baby version of the IRS would be sweet, but ill likely seek out a 2 piece RS series set.
Paul how do you reconcile the findings of an in depth test of your company's $6000 P12 a/c generator. Effectively it does nothing at worst it creates more a/c noise.
Are you referring to the ASR review? That was silly. They totally missed the point of the product. The P12 does exactly what it is stated to do: lower output impedance, regulate the AC, and remove distortion. That Amir doesn't understand why that improves sound quality and ,misunderstood what the product's intended uses are is rather typical.
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio let’s assume what you say is true, but if it has no bearing on the output response of the amplifier, as was also pointed by Amir, what really is the point? Supposedly, there must be something you could show on the graphs that causes an ‘improvement’ in sound quality?
hi can you please respond to this comment by HF "a brief discussion of tall line-source systems, mainly as they deal with low bass coming from numerous, vertically aligned small-diameter drivers. Now, some tall planar and electrostatic systems are line sources themselves, but the video was discussing a line of conventional drivers, and that approach is as valid as what we have with planar systems. What the video did not mention was an inherent problem with tall line sources above the bass range. The line is emitting sound from the center will be electrically in phase with what is being emitted from the top and bottom. However, the sounds from the top and bottom, and points between are out of acoustic phase with the center at the listener's ears. Think of such a system with only three drivers: top, bottom, and center. If all three are operating identically with the electrical input, but at midrange and higher frequencies the outputs from the top and bottom will be out of phase with the center. Add in more drivers between those top and bottom drivers and things actually get worse. As noted, due to the longer wavelengths, at lower frequencies, this may be no big deal, but at higher frequencies it will be. This artifact was clearly outlined by Stanley Lipshitz and John Vanderkooy in an AES convention paper delivered way back in November of 1986: "Finite-Length Line Sources." In the paper Lipshitz mathematically outlined and also illustrated with generated mathematical curves, that above about 1,000 Hz the frequency response (due to those out-of-phase artifacts I mentioned) of such a finite-length system could not deliver uniform output. They concluded that such speakers, no matter the design of the driver or drivers, could not be considered as high-fidelity sound reproducers."
Gravitational manipulation of gasses is difficult but still the best way to create a point source… wait what year is it… oh ya gotta while but it’s soo worth the wait.
My Infinity Kappa 8 that I have in my storage-room have just 1 EMIT in the front and 1 in the back så yes, it's easy to make "smaller speakers" with those elements.
I can see a line source being better being the sound should be the same no what height your ears are at short of laying on the floor or ceiling. I used to have a set of speakers that sounded so much better when you laid them on their sides then standing up. Sitting at the right height it must have been like a poor man's version of the (line source) V's. The V's give you options of any height. Today I have 4, IRS IIIa's and 8 Emits in 2 satellite boxes. Never thought about laying them sideways (they're 4 feet tall) but if I did, I could make about 4 feet of the IRS V's. I'm not sure what would be better, having all the sound waves coming from different heights, rolling over top one another like the waves from a few pebbles dropped in water, the waves hit each other all chaotic as they pass each other or is it better for all of the waves to be at the same (height) level and come to your ear like boats going down a waterway one right after the other sending waves in order, to the shore as they go by? I understand you want to blend the music but like a milkshake I would think you could over blend and end up with milk. Maybe if I had a bigger room, I could get a couple more sets of IIIa's and a couple more amps and give it a try but until then I will just have to sit on the couch for the best height for listening.
A line array for a room is a complete nonsense. The cylindrical dispersion is a myth and it doesent work like that, having an array of sources allows you to controll directivity, something you dont need to controll in a small room.
Wow. Where is it you get your information? Perhaps you are thinking about modern DSP steered line arrays? There's years of measurements and experience with line arrays and how they propagate sound into the room. Sorry to be argumentative but it prickles the hairs on my neck when false info gets started.
I wish I had taken advantage of being so close to Boulder and came up to hear those Infinity's before my hearing went to poop. Love your videos.
I've never really thought of the IRS as a true line source. The rows of tweeters and midrange drivers inevitably have gaps between the top of the radiating area of each driver, and the bottom of the radiating area of the next driver, and this will lead to some degree of acoustic lobing and comb filtering along the array. True line sources are found on some electrostatic and ribbon speakers like Magneplanars, Apogees and Martin-Logans.
No, the Infinity IRS V is not a true line source, but they function as one. The acoustic center of the square drivers is much closer together than the voice coils of round drivers. The comb filtering between drivers will average out and they will integrate, as long as you're not sitting too close.
@@BruceCross I still haven’t fully understood comb filtering to know what it does both near field and at larger distances.
I was thinking of building a poor man’s “line source” using say 16 3” or 4” full range cone drivers but friends warned me about comb filtering above say 3500-4500Hz depending on the diameter of the driver.
The only use of a line source I see now is for below 300hz where an array of 8” woofers can be used. This way comb filtering is above the crossover frequency of these woofers.
@@navinadv Everything I said is based on "GR-Research" videos, so please see Danny's channel. If multiple cone drivers are playing the same frequencies, the voice coils are too far apart to create a line source. Baffle step loss is another factor, the frequency where drivers stop beaming forward and start become omnidirectional, where drivers playing the same frequencies start interacting (comb filtering). Don't ask me how the crossover compensates for the beaming frequencies being louder. Crossover points are important, too. I like your woofer line array if the baffle isn't too wide, but then it limits output. Sigh, I understand a little bit of theory, but I'm not a speaker designer.
@@BruceCross oh I’m not a speaker designer either, and I wasn’t trolling. I was referring to comb filtering that would occur if the center to center distance between drivers was say 100mm. Assuming the speed of sound is 343000mm/s the combo filtering would start at 3430hz for 2 4” drivers.
Baffle step is a function of the width of the baffle and assuming the baffle is also 100mm wide yes then baffle step would also begin around 3430hz.
With larger drivers operating lower say 4 8” woofers reproducing (or tasked to reproduce) 30-300hz comb filtering would not be significant but as Danny explained with several smaller full range drivers operating out to 20,000 how does one mange the comb filtering?
How do the EMIM type drivers used in the IRS avoid comb filtering? Could we DIY’ers replicate this using planar drivers like the B&G Neo 8?
@@navinadv No, I didn't think you were trolling. I'm sorry, you could easily be more knowledgeable than me. Yes, 3430 Hz for 4" drivers sounds about right. The comb filtering can't be managed with smaller drivers, but it averages out. A line source requires square drivers, since they won't behave as a continuous driver unless the acoustic centers are close enough. Also, a lot depends on how high the crossover point must be to the upper driver. If it's too high, it increases comb filtering. I don't know about the B&G Neo 8.
As a kid the first pair of speakers I purchased were the Design Acoustics PS(Point Source)10's. In the mid 80's at about $300./pr (I purchased the optional metal stands as well about $60. extra)they were certainly an upgrade to what came with many packaged stereo systems at the time. However they were a far cry from these Infiniti Reference series speakers.
woah....the crossover network on the tweeters, that's brilliant....
I've never heard of that before. I wonder if he got that correct. 🤔
Usually in a line source (or line array) there's power tapering>>> the result is that the middle of the array plays slightly louder than both the top and bottom of the array.
But I've never heard of a configuration where the middle of the tweeter array plays the highest of the frequencies.
@@thunderpooch more like the principle of a drumskini,,,at least in my brain. Interesting,,,
what are the size of the voice coils on those subs?
I dont think I'd ever get bored with any music if I had IRS V's @ my disposal. A vintage set of Infinity's are on my bucket list without a doubt. The baby version of the IRS would be sweet, but ill likely seek out a 2 piece RS series set.
Sound Ideas was the name of my friend's Dad's store when I was young.
Paul how do you reconcile the findings of an in depth test of your company's $6000 P12 a/c generator.
Effectively it does nothing at worst it creates more a/c noise.
Are you referring to the ASR review? That was silly. They totally missed the point of the product. The P12 does exactly what it is stated to do: lower output impedance, regulate the AC, and remove distortion. That Amir doesn't understand why that improves sound quality and ,misunderstood what the product's intended uses are is rather typical.
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio let’s assume what you say is true, but if it has no bearing on the output response of the amplifier, as was also pointed by Amir, what really is the point?
Supposedly, there must be something you could show on the graphs that causes an ‘improvement’ in sound quality?
Great video. Q. Can you use a line array with a point source? Any issues of phasing?
Why do you put your woofers at the outside
hi can you please respond to this comment by HF
"a brief discussion of tall line-source systems, mainly as they deal with low bass coming from numerous, vertically aligned small-diameter drivers. Now, some tall planar and electrostatic systems are line sources themselves, but the video was discussing a line of conventional drivers, and that approach is as valid as what we have with planar systems. What the video did not mention was an inherent problem with tall line sources above the bass range. The line is emitting sound from the center will be electrically in phase with what is being emitted from the top and bottom. However, the sounds from the top and bottom, and points between are out of acoustic phase with the center at the listener's ears. Think of such a system with only three drivers: top, bottom, and center. If all three are operating identically with the electrical input, but at midrange and higher frequencies the outputs from the top and bottom will be out of phase with the center. Add in more drivers between those top and bottom drivers and things actually get worse.
As noted, due to the longer wavelengths, at lower frequencies, this may be no big deal, but at higher frequencies it will be. This artifact was clearly outlined by Stanley Lipshitz and John Vanderkooy in an AES convention paper delivered way back in November of 1986: "Finite-Length Line Sources." In the paper Lipshitz mathematically outlined and also illustrated with generated mathematical curves, that above about 1,000 Hz the frequency response (due to those out-of-phase artifacts I mentioned) of such a finite-length system could not deliver uniform output.
They concluded that such speakers, no matter the design of the driver or drivers, could not be considered as high-fidelity sound reproducers."
Gravitational manipulation of gasses is difficult but still the best way to create a point source… wait what year is it… oh ya gotta while but it’s soo worth the wait.
Only after.
My Infinity Kappa 8 that I have in my storage-room have just 1 EMIT in the front and 1 in the back så yes, it's easy to make "smaller speakers" with those elements.
Paul, will you replace your legendary Infinity IRS V with FR 30 ? Thanks
Already have!
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio I"m Infinity Kappa 9 owner , but once it shows up in Canada I would love to hear it, Fr 30 speakers
I can see a line source being better being the sound should be the same no what height your ears are at short of laying on the floor or ceiling. I used to have a set of speakers that sounded so much better when you laid them on their sides then standing up. Sitting at the right height it must have been like a poor man's version of the (line source) V's. The V's give you options of any height. Today I have 4, IRS IIIa's and 8 Emits in 2 satellite boxes. Never thought about laying them sideways (they're 4 feet tall) but if I did, I could make about 4 feet of the IRS V's. I'm not sure what would be better, having all the sound waves coming from different heights, rolling over top one another like the waves from a few pebbles dropped in water, the waves hit each other all chaotic as they pass each other or is it better for all of the waves to be at the same (height) level and come to your ear like boats going down a waterway one right after the other sending waves in order, to the shore as they go by? I understand you want to blend the music but like a milkshake I would think you could over blend and end up with milk. Maybe if I had a bigger room, I could get a couple more sets of IIIa's and a couple more amps and give it a try but until then I will just have to sit on the couch for the best height for listening.
Thanks, and let us know when you are open to visitation again.
Heighth?
Indeed.
He hath a lithp !
Ith a thibilanth ithue with all Paulth chaths...
🎶🤫🎶
What are those million dollar speakers?😂🎉 0:49
Search for this video: "PS Audio PowerPlant P12 AC Regenerator Review" to learn the whole truth about PS Audio.
What does ps audio think of the War at Europe? Russia ok? Put(a) n ok?
🤗LOOKING FORWARD TO HEARING THOSE SOMEDAY 😍😍😍
Solution:
Magnepan.
Money-a-wasted forever. Oh, Humankind...
Just $300 headphones replaces all this audiophoolery nonsense.
A line array for a room is a complete nonsense. The cylindrical dispersion is a myth and it doesent work like that, having an array of sources allows you to controll directivity, something you dont need to controll in a small room.
Wow. Where is it you get your information? Perhaps you are thinking about modern DSP steered line arrays? There's years of measurements and experience with line arrays and how they propagate sound into the room. Sorry to be argumentative but it prickles the hairs on my neck when false info gets started.
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio You have not been argumentative at all. xD
I believe that these IRS sound amazing, but they are so ugly :P