100%... I am tryign to find one that I can connect to a Rasbperry Pi, and OMG, I am burning a lot of time, I think this can help me to better understand the (few) options out there...
A quirk of thermals being comparable in function to a camera that I don't think was emphasized enough is the aperture to screen latency, which can be jarring to walk with which was mentioned. But as important is the ability to lead moving targets. On my ATN thor, when its cold and you are recording, I've seen the delay approach half a second. If you've ever noticed in thermal hunts videos they wait for the animal to stay completely still despite traditionally easy shots, this is often why. However, it is mostly mitigated on high end thermals with delays of less than 10ms.
Agree, this is one of the chief benefits of higher-end thermal devices, the latency is considerably lower in most cases. They will also either have much faster auto-NUC systems or just not have auto-NUC at all, so you can choose when to NUC and avoid any unwanted interruption of your view. My old FLIR weapon sight would take about a half-second to NUC which was obnoxious when tracking a game animal. My ClipIR-ELR is faster than a blink.
Oh boy, ATN claims another victim. My dad bought one for like $800 but got rid of it after a year of me constantly making fun of his fisher price toy. My man really swallowed his pride after a disaster of a boar hunt with it haha.
How are your videos so GOOD? The level of detail, expertise, and advice is excellent. I especially appreciate your understanding of how different solutions fit different roles, such that the "right answer" is always mission-specific. Please keep making excellent content.
I would say his videos are definitely good but it just seems a lot more amazing because everybody else’s videos are complete trash and just putting out a good quality video really stands out. You would have thought that by 2022 we would’ve already had 50 videos going into depth about these different options.
I talk about the breach a bit in a similar primer I have. Make sure you look at the Detection and ID range Hop mentioned first. That thing is a real POS when you see what the ranges are. Plus the 1.5 hours of battery life is laughably stupid
You should NOT be spending $5k on a Pvs14 or $3k on a breach. You can get a set of binos for 5k, and you could get both an Unfilmed L3 14 AND a breach for 5k. If you look, you can get PVS-14 for 1750-3k depending on what you want, and you can get a breach for around $1600.
Saving up and buying a breach was one of the worst things I've ever spent money on, it could have been a good device if FLIR added a front focus ring but they hate civilians and save focusing for the LE/military big spenders. I can't tell from 150 yards if it's a deer or black bear eating at my corn feeder until the animal starts moving. Plus, FLIR doesn't even service them for us anymore, I had to send mine back for warranty work and FLIR literally subcontracts that service out to a guy that's working at a marina up in New England somewhere.
Quick correction, Hop: Pixel pitch is the distance between the centers of each respective thermal pixel. The larger the pixel pitch, the larger the pixel. In a similar manner to crop vs full frame cameras, a larger pixel (higher pixel pitch) usually leads to more surface area to receive infrared "light", therefore leading to a typically better image, all other things considered equal. A smaller pixel pitch means the pixels are closer together, meaning the same thing that it means in a crop vs a full frame digital camera. The closer the pixels are together, the higher the "perceived" base magnification is (that's what a crop factor is of 1.6x for a APS-C camera, vs a full frame). What that translates into for thermal cameras is a higher base magnification, and thereby a greater detection and recognition range for the same objective lens diameter. The reason thermal cameras cost so much is the rare-earth metal germanium (not osmium, thanks paintballplayer700) lens on the objective, which is necessary because glass does not transmit thermal infrared light. The smaller the objective, the lower your magnification, the cheaper your optic. Smaller pixels mean you get bigger bang for your buck in terms of detection distance per dollar spent, since the objective diameter lens can be lower, for the same magnification. The reason people think that smaller pixel pitch means "better" image quality is that 12 um pixel pitch sensors are newer than 17 um sensors. Newer usually means better, which is where the thinking comes from.
Just got to that part in the video and was about to comment. You summed it up pretty good. In general, the bigger the pixels the better for sensitivity and signal to noise ratio. But of course resolution is very important, and larger sensors are more expensive and make the rest of the systemore expensive too.
Excellent explanation and saved me a lot of effort in typing. The biggest benefit of lesser pitch is smaller form factor for same performance. That's why in video where there are two different devices of 17 and 12 micron bein compared, you can see the size diffrence of both TWS. The two major cost factors in any TWS Are Lens and Thermal sensor. For tactical purpose for foot soldiers/ special forces..I would prefer a 12 micron device. For all others a 17 micron is good enough.
I've done a good bit of nuisance removal. Thermal is superior for hunting in my opinion. Scanning with a rifle can be a pain in the ass, and can be dangerous. A thermal monocular with a thermal scope is the best set up, but a thermal monocular paired with a night vision scope is cheaper and will get the job done
@@Michaeldpress14 yeah for target spotting. Not for seeing your surroundings or shooting a gun in a dynamic environment though. They do different things, and really should be used together. Paired together they overcome each others weaknesses and test your wallets weaknesses 😂
Thanks Hop. I'm actually quite ignorant when it comes to NV and thermal devices. This was a great primer for me as well as others too I'm sure. Keep the solid content coming. You do a great job.
I agree with your closing assessment. For most of my time in the infantry I had PVS14's and carried a PAS13 in my cargo pocket. The 14s worked good for moving and patrolling and conserved batteries well for static defense type posture or pulling security in a patrol base. The PAS13 while being bulky and not at all practical for moving was awesome when trying to spot someone moving through the woods. The two systems really complimented each other well and I usually made sure me and at least 2 others in my squad carried that setup. Of course when the army fielded the ENVGs that was a total game changer. The thermal overlay combined with dual tube white phos increased our lethality at night exponentially. In training we would consistently destroy any opfor who was still using 14's or even the older gen thermal overlay nods.
With regards to detection/identification range: There are a number of factors that go into this, one of which being sensor resolution as you mentioned. However, I would argue that the lens used is actually the biggest factor by far (i.e. the real bottleneck in most cases). A thermal camera can theoretically see as far as a regular camera can - i.e. to the horizon. All the sensor is doing is responding to light focused onto it by the lens. You can (theoretically) put a big lens on a thermal camera with a low resolution sensor and see/detect/identify objects miles away. This is because the lens is focusing and gathering light in (roughly) the same way the lens of a regular camera is, just at a different wavelength, so if you can gather light from a long distance away and focus it onto the sensor, the sensor doesn't know the difference. For comparison's sake, think about the quality of image a DSLR with a big telephoto lens would produce at long range compared to your phone camera, which may actually have a higher-resolution sensor than the DSLR. The sensors in the thermal camera modules of helicopters which can see for miles have only become high resolution fairly recently (older models of Apache Arrowhead only had 1 row of 180 detectors and therefore pixels, although these were cooled detectors and so not quite 1:1 comparable to microbolometers) - but it didn't matter much because they had huge lenses. Of course, the caveat is that if you're using digital zoom, then the sensor resolution is directly responsible for the quality of image because it's just a crop and zoom, therefore a 2x digital zoom gives you half the pixels, if that makes sense. Also, just a side-point re: seeing through walls and glass: You can see heat transfer through walls. So if someone is leaning against or standing very close to a thin wall, e.g. the wall of a shed or similar, you can pick up a heat signature which will become more pronounced over time as heat from their body is transfered to the wall. I know this isn't the point you were trying to make (thermals are not x-ray vision), but just thought I'd include it as a point of interest.
An adversary with thermals scares the shit out of me... Given how much info comes from the front in Ukraine I think we may be able to extract some level of doctrine surrounding it's utility and up to date techniques of camouflaging against it. Especially this winter I want to see how comfortable either side is using open fires to stay warm and so on. S2 Underground has some good lectures about this topic.
Dont forget the kurds giving the Turkish a run for their money with thermals on sniper rifles. Cheap, usable, feasible for combat use they are scary and no longer limited to apcs or helo aim pods.
I wonder how most of the things will work in the winter too. They can say that it will be fine and it might be in the early days but let's see how well it works during a a heavy day and night snowfall or Blizzard.
Now imagine that the adversary has thermals on a copter hundreds of meters up, and artillery to fire on any signatures they detect that way. That's how it actually is right now. I was on a recon training a few days ago and instructors specifically forbade us from building fires for that exact reason. We had to run jetboil stoves under tarps as the only heat source in a rain-soaked forest in freezing temps, but that's still better than getting woke up by 120mm. OTOH, a thermal riflescope is perfect for perimeter security. I got my bro a 50mm 640*512 scope and it saved his bacon a couple of times when someone went bump in the night. There's no feasible way you can advance unnoticed on a thermal-equipped sentry unless he's asleep.
In my experience with thermal/nvg combos in the military both together are the best possible option. With just NV I could easily fall in a hole. You say otherwise but holes stand out a lot with thermals, During patrols with dual purpose nods I would occasionally click thermals on to keep track of my team mates and see what kind of trees/terrain laid before me.
Interesting. I busted my ass a few weeks ago not being able to see I was about to fall into a culvert. It was during a new moon+heavy fog. NVGs were unharmed 🙏
You bring up a great point, why don’t more soldiers strap themselves with boulders to camouflage from thermal and non thermal imaging. Depending on the size of the boulders they could even be fairly bullet proof
I saw this happening last night in real-time. As the sun went down, we lost a ton of contrast through the thermal, and even when the sun was up, I couldn't tell the difference between various distant hills. I could tell there was ground and sky, but the ground all looked flat and featureless. Compare that to my DNV scopes, which show me lots of detail both at night and during the day, and which aren't affected by dusk. However, once all ambient light is gone, I can see much further with the thermal. The thermal shows me less detail, but makes targets identifiable very easily.
So, this is the second time I've watched this video. I picked up on a couple things I missed in the first viewing. I've bookmarked this video to return again. At present, I can't afford either, though that time will come. Keep up the good work Hop. Thank much from an old fart.
One important thing to note is that my analog night vision has never shut down due to cold, but my thermal most certainly has a limit on its ability to stay powered on in extreme cold.
I loved the video. Thanks Hop. My only issue was I wish your video (and others I've seen) would list the device the images came from. For instance, the ending displayed some high-resolution images. It would have been very helpful to know what device (or specs) present that level of detail. I live in Alaska. I would love to have a device as you stated for a quick sweep of the treeline before I let the dog out at night.
Finally thanks for this. It's really impressive how agm is putting out some products with better specs for cheaper when compared with similarly priced products from other major manufacturers
I just got the the agm rattler ts19. I love it and it's easy enough to figure out and use. Within an hour, of playing with it and sighting it, was pretty simple to use.
Bought the AGM 160 after your vid and while it's no great jam, I still think it's cool enough on it's own to have, (works decently as a "detector" only)and my kids get to see the world differently too. Saving for NV and a more competent thermal set up now.
I don't comment often but I gotta say, these videos you post are so useful. NV and Thermal are expensive and it's nice to have useful information to reference for people who are not familiar with this type of niche.
You can get a Sightmark Wraith for under $500. To see how good they are, check my hunting videos. I'll be adding thermal comparisons in the coming weeks.
Wow! Thank you for making such a concise yet extremely informative video. The COTI type of thermal seems pretty interesting and I'd definitely like to see how well that performs in conjunction with some quality night vision.
My pleb ass knows I'm never going to afford an nvg or thermals, but your videos are so informative that each new piece you put out is addicting to watch.
This video is awesome! Very comprehensive! Especially good for people like me who are just starting out. I'm going to try it with my new Infiray thermal cameras.
Great video Hop! I have a thermal primer that we did also that just fell back in the line for video release. I'll link yours in the description of mine as it has a lot of similar info... And then I don't look like a crazy person lol -Walsh
I'm really impressed by this video! It offers a wealth of information that is incredibly valuable, especially for beginners like me. I'm eager to put it into practice with my newly acquired Infiray thermal cameras.
3:04 Something to point out, infrared sensors detect the infrared radiation emitted by the objects, which is dependent mostly by the object temperature AND its emissivity, the later being determined mostly by the material. This is relevant since it means that two objects at the same temperature but of different composition will look different under thermal imaging. The objects on a room will be distinct under thermals, withing reason, due to their different materials even when sharing the same temperature. Same goes for outdoor scenarios, rocks, grass and dirt stand out from each other mostly due to their different emissivity rather than temperature. Also any temperature scale on a thermal imaging device will be off unless calibrated for that specific material and ambient conditions.
I completely agree, and in fact is exactly what I did. I have near IR night vision scope mounted on the rifle and spot with a hand held thermal. With the night vision you can lose a lot of information on the target if its in bushes etc, however the eye shine is significant and makes it clear where to look closely.
@@IFarmBugs battery life is like 3 hours tops. Range is a tough one. In the terrain in the southeast, any detection at range tends to blend in with the woodline. Idk if the Jerry will do better, but I'll find out next week.
Honestly, I love my N-Vision Halo XRF (thermal). I think other would agree, if you all were able to test out higher quality stuff with a BAE core (Trijicon REAP-IR, MK3, or N-Visio Halo) you would see thermal in a different light (pun intended). Makes AGM look like a kid’s toy. Keep in mind it’s a pay to play world, and just like quality night vision, high quality thermal scopes I mentioned are each $9,000+. In exchange for that amount of money, you get thermal sensitivity that’s far superior, and an image quality that allows you to see each hair of the animal’s fur coat with ease. Best of all, I can see perfectly in pitch black settings (set to black hot) and can even use it during the day. Achilles heel in all of this is glass. If a perpetrator is holding a giant window in front of him as he breaks in to my house then I’m dead 😂.
I stg Hop can read minds. I was wanting an in-depth video on thermal related stuff specifically monoculars, and I was thinking something along the lines of it'd be nice if Hot made a video over that, and then I get this gem in my recommendations.
I use a PVS14 on one side and a FLIR Breech on the other of a bridge. I can rotate the Flir up and down as needed. It's super small and light. The Flir is better in open terrain as it doesn't see through brush and when it's really dark. You can't use it to shoot as far as I can tell. It's most useful to see things moving in the dark with little cover that would be harder to see with NV. That said I really only need two buttons On and OFF, and a switch for white hot/dark hot. Like hop said using the menu walking around is annoying.
@@yamahapeanut44 For me it's ok you kinda see one or the other. So it's like just a single the PVS14 the other eye is more passive? I guess you'd say. Then you focus on the Flir and the PVS14 is passive. Trying to find the Flir Breech menu buttons in the dark and work the menu is awkward to turn it off when you want to save battery.
according to this awesome breakdown (thanks dude) thermals in Escape From Tarkov are way too op, they have a lot of downsides and aren't just a "slap it on and see everything for free" type of device. They really should add battery life (batteries are already in-game) not to mention a thermal blanket (or even a giant roll of industrial tinfoil) almost completely obscures heat signatures rendering anyone behind it nigh invisible to thermals but probably pretty obvious to night vision.
i remember looking through my friend's helmet mounted thermal goggles in an airsoft game at night and seeing the enemy's stupid face thinking he was hidden lmao
I disagree on one point that you should get nv first and supplement with thermal. I think yes, you’ll get more use out of nightvision but if you’re interested in being able to operate at night it’s more important for you to get thermal early. Not because it’ll improve YOUR sight, but because you need all the time you can get to understand the quirks of avoiding thermal detection. Avoiding being seen under night vision is not really that difficult. But you absolutely need lots of practice to avoid being detected by thermals and that’s the most common way anyone will try to detect you at night.
I've have 2 years experience hunting with thermal scopes hunting various critters. I'm using the pulsar thermion XM 50. And my buddy is using flir something. The only real downside is ranging. The XM has a 5.5x so I'm having to guess range from the size it is in the scope it's not ideal but I've gotten pretty good at it. If i had to do it over again I'd get a thermal hand held ange finder and a NV rifle scope. Thermal for target spotting and ranging NV for final target id and better image of the target. If you do go thermal, do yourself a favor. PAY THE EXTRA MONEY FOR THE RANGE FINDER. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR IN THE THERMAL WORLD. DON'T CHEAP OUT YOU WILL BE DISAPPOINTED!
Thermal > Night vision Night vision just gives you the same leverage of finding your enemies that you would have during the day time. Thermal actually tells you where they are.
Clip-ons offer good value as you can put an optical adapter on it to serve the monocular option for simply sweeping the surroundings. If you you wanna shoot a deer with it the you can clip it on to the scope. Depending on the adapter for clipping onto the scope there is a good chance no rezeroing is needed
If you were wondering Analog night vision tubes work through the amplification of light. Incoming light photons (what our eyes see), are converted into electrons, and then those electrons are multiplies over and over again, which is the actual intensification process. Once the electrons are multiplied, they run into a phosphor screen, which glows for our eyes to see. This is fairly oversimplified, but that's the basic process. Of course, the actual process is much more technical than that.
The video switched to a survival horror game at 5:50. I totally expected something bad to be on screen after the sensor recovered from freezing. The sudden inclusion of the ambient sound helped too.
Maybe I just missed him mention this but one of the drawbacks for me is that in my old age I have started wearing glasses and have trouble seeing things up close while my long distance vision is still comparable to that of a hawk. When I look down a normal scope I see everything fine but when I use my thermal monocular I have to wear my reading glasses. At night this can be an issue because of the glare. It's also the same as a mini tv screen so it ruins any natural night vision (eye dilation). I also cannot press my face to the eyepiece because of my glasses so if I was trying to be stealthy my face would be lit up by the thermal imagers screen. I don't have a thermal scope but I imagine this could be a problem with one.
I appreciated it when you waxed poetic about the Lovecraftian elder gods to reference manual night vision. I completely agree. Fhtaghn! Cthulhu Fhtaghn!
I was seriously considering all of your points, Hop, but I was interrupted by a strong desire to pat the happy boy at 15:30. The battery issue for thermals may be doubly irritating because some manufacturers (looking at you Pulsar and Pard) use proprietary batteries. There are work-arounds like buying more proprietary batteries or small power banks, but if I'm using my thermal then things are bad and those batteries have a limited 500-cycle lifespan.
I don't want to buy anything with a built in battery or a proprietary battery. Put a C port on it for using power banks but stick with standard battery types. Look what happened with our phones. Old phone with replaceable battery...replacement battery $14...New phone built in battery...new phone $1,000.
Hop -- You conclude that people should consider getting a NV goggle plus a hand held IR monocular. Could you test which IR monoculars held in front of your NV goggles work best, a form of dual IR/NV technology in one ghetto system?
The timing of this video was perfect. I was reading an article this morning about a FLIR thermal device for phones and I really didn't know how to decipher the specs. Does the government restrict the refresh rate? The article implies that they do.
Something to keep in mind when it comes to pixel pitch: a smaller pitch also implies smaller pixels! While you are right with the resolution, pixel size shouldn't be neglected either. Generally, the larger a pixel, the more light it collects, leading to a more sensitive sensor. It also makes the requirements for the lenses less difficult to achieve (i.e. a worse lense isn't as ciritical for a sensor with large pixels).
Hell yeah and cover how to camouflage to prevent detection by the thermals operator how can we fool them etc etc thanks hopp love your videos man thanks for the info as always
Thanks, your last thermal monocular video sent me down the thermal hole. I don't like to move much and appreciated the zero light (visible wl) necessary aspect. I hated zeroing too and find the weapon sight TS-25-384 produces a god awful image in detail and claustrophobic in FOV compared to a similar optical day sights. In very dark environs it seems like a super power though. Sure wish it could see through glass so I wouldn't have to open something to see outside my house.
thanks for the testimonial, I have one though, don't poor water on a hot suppressor especially if it is annealed steel, it could cause warping and stresses in the metal.
Really well presented.. you should start a YT channel haha. Meanwhile, the dog just thinks you look like a dork on account that he sees perfectly in the dark. 😉 Servus aus Österreich!
I have been running the Accufire Incendis which is nice for Hog hunting. 60hz refresh rate and clip on form factor has been awesome. Combine that with the fact they're a local company here in Texas makes it great if something were to go wrong I can bitch at them in person.
Did you try to get ahold of ATN? You should if not. I think they'd loan you a scope to evaluate. Not sure if they're great for combat, but a whole lot of us PCP rifle pest control guys sure do like them.
I will say I have found thermal devices to be almost useless in heavily vegetated areas. Nods are the preferred option with a small mono for thermal. Which is what hop mentioned in the end.
I learned more about thermals from this 15 minute video than I did scanning the internet for over an hour.
100%... I am tryign to find one that I can connect to a Rasbperry Pi, and OMG, I am burning a lot of time, I think this can help me to better understand the (few) options out there...
A quirk of thermals being comparable in function to a camera that I don't think was emphasized enough is the aperture to screen latency, which can be jarring to walk with which was mentioned. But as important is the ability to lead moving targets. On my ATN thor, when its cold and you are recording, I've seen the delay approach half a second. If you've ever noticed in thermal hunts videos they wait for the animal to stay completely still despite traditionally easy shots, this is often why. However, it is mostly mitigated on high end thermals with delays of less than 10ms.
A great point for high end thermals. Didnt think about that, thanks.
Agree, this is one of the chief benefits of higher-end thermal devices, the latency is considerably lower in most cases. They will also either have much faster auto-NUC systems or just not have auto-NUC at all, so you can choose when to NUC and avoid any unwanted interruption of your view. My old FLIR weapon sight would take about a half-second to NUC which was obnoxious when tracking a game animal. My ClipIR-ELR is faster than a blink.
At least they got that right in escape from Tarkov. If you can ever afford a thermal
Oh boy, ATN claims another victim. My dad bought one for like $800 but got rid of it after a year of me constantly making fun of his fisher price toy. My man really swallowed his pride after a disaster of a boar hunt with it haha.
What’s the good 10ms brands
How are your videos so GOOD? The level of detail, expertise, and advice is excellent. I especially appreciate your understanding of how different solutions fit different roles, such that the "right answer" is always mission-specific. Please keep making excellent content.
hop gets kickbacks from the CIA for not naming the lizard people running our country
He don't fuck around. Zero bullshit.
I would say his videos are definitely good but it just seems a lot more amazing because everybody else’s videos are complete trash and just putting out a good quality video really stands out. You would have thought that by 2022 we would’ve already had 50 videos going into depth about these different options.
@@MobileAura also a lot of channels have the goal of selling product(s). I.e. paid reviews, etc.
He managed to surpass nutnfancy in terms of autism all while maintaining focus somehow.
Once you blow $5,000 on a NVG monocular, time to spend another $3,000 on a FLIR Breach lmao.
I talk about the breach a bit in a similar primer I have. Make sure you look at the Detection and ID range Hop mentioned first. That thing is a real POS when you see what the ranges are.
Plus the 1.5 hours of battery life is laughably stupid
breach sucks balls
iray ml19 beats the breach in everything except recording i think
You should NOT be spending $5k on a Pvs14 or $3k on a breach. You can get a set of binos for 5k, and you could get both an Unfilmed L3 14 AND a breach for 5k. If you look, you can get PVS-14 for 1750-3k depending on what you want, and you can get a breach for around $1600.
Saving up and buying a breach was one of the worst things I've ever spent money on, it could have been a good device if FLIR added a front focus ring but they hate civilians and save focusing for the LE/military big spenders. I can't tell from 150 yards if it's a deer or black bear eating at my corn feeder until the animal starts moving. Plus, FLIR doesn't even service them for us anymore, I had to send mine back for warranty work and FLIR literally subcontracts that service out to a guy that's working at a marina up in New England somewhere.
Quick correction, Hop:
Pixel pitch is the distance between the centers of each respective thermal pixel. The larger the pixel pitch, the larger the pixel. In a similar manner to crop vs full frame cameras, a larger pixel (higher pixel pitch) usually leads to more surface area to receive infrared "light", therefore leading to a typically better image, all other things considered equal. A smaller pixel pitch means the pixels are closer together, meaning the same thing that it means in a crop vs a full frame digital camera. The closer the pixels are together, the higher the "perceived" base magnification is (that's what a crop factor is of 1.6x for a APS-C camera, vs a full frame). What that translates into for thermal cameras is a higher base magnification, and thereby a greater detection and recognition range for the same objective lens diameter. The reason thermal cameras cost so much is the rare-earth metal germanium (not osmium, thanks paintballplayer700) lens on the objective, which is necessary because glass does not transmit thermal infrared light. The smaller the objective, the lower your magnification, the cheaper your optic. Smaller pixels mean you get bigger bang for your buck in terms of detection distance per dollar spent, since the objective diameter lens can be lower, for the same magnification.
The reason people think that smaller pixel pitch means "better" image quality is that 12 um pixel pitch sensors are newer than 17 um sensors. Newer usually means better, which is where the thinking comes from.
thank you for this 👍
Small correction to your small correction - the lenses are made of germanium or germanium dioxide, not osmium.
Just got to that part in the video and was about to comment. You summed it up pretty good. In general, the bigger the pixels the better for sensitivity and signal to noise ratio. But of course resolution is very important, and larger sensors are more expensive and make the rest of the systemore expensive too.
Excellent explanation and saved me a lot of effort in typing. The biggest benefit of lesser pitch is smaller form factor for same performance. That's why in video where there are two different devices of 17 and 12 micron bein compared, you can see the size diffrence of both TWS. The two major cost factors in any TWS Are Lens and Thermal sensor. For tactical purpose for foot soldiers/ special forces..I would prefer a 12 micron device. For all others a 17 micron is good enough.
Line pairs per milliliter was the metric used for old skool night vision.
64 lp/mm was the standard for U.S. military AN PVS-7s back in the day.
This video comes at just the right time, I was shopping for either thermals or NVGs but couldn't decide on which to buy first 👍
NVG’s for sure. Thermal is something best used supplementally with NV for better detection. NV on its own is way more useful
I have dual nvg and multiple thermals. Pick nvg for doing fun stuff or run n gun stuff. Pick thermal for hunting standing still.
Thermal absolutely blows away NV
I've done a good bit of nuisance removal. Thermal is superior for hunting in my opinion. Scanning with a rifle can be a pain in the ass, and can be dangerous. A thermal monocular with a thermal scope is the best set up, but a thermal monocular paired with a night vision scope is cheaper and will get the job done
@@Michaeldpress14 yeah for target spotting. Not for seeing your surroundings or shooting a gun in a dynamic environment though. They do different things, and really should be used together. Paired together they overcome each others weaknesses and test your wallets weaknesses 😂
Thanks Hop. I'm actually quite ignorant when it comes to NV and thermal devices. This was a great primer for me as well as others too I'm sure. Keep the solid content coming. You do a great job.
I agree with your closing assessment. For most of my time in the infantry I had PVS14's and carried a PAS13 in my cargo pocket. The 14s worked good for moving and patrolling and conserved batteries well for static defense type posture or pulling security in a patrol base. The PAS13 while being bulky and not at all practical for moving was awesome when trying to spot someone moving through the woods. The two systems really complimented each other well and I usually made sure me and at least 2 others in my squad carried that setup. Of course when the army fielded the ENVGs that was a total game changer. The thermal overlay combined with dual tube white phos increased our lethality at night exponentially. In training we would consistently destroy any opfor who was still using 14's or even the older gen thermal overlay nods.
You carried a PAS in your cargo pocket? Those things are huge lol.
With regards to detection/identification range: There are a number of factors that go into this, one of which being sensor resolution as you mentioned. However, I would argue that the lens used is actually the biggest factor by far (i.e. the real bottleneck in most cases).
A thermal camera can theoretically see as far as a regular camera can - i.e. to the horizon. All the sensor is doing is responding to light focused onto it by the lens. You can (theoretically) put a big lens on a thermal camera with a low resolution sensor and see/detect/identify objects miles away. This is because the lens is focusing and gathering light in (roughly) the same way the lens of a regular camera is, just at a different wavelength, so if you can gather light from a long distance away and focus it onto the sensor, the sensor doesn't know the difference. For comparison's sake, think about the quality of image a DSLR with a big telephoto lens would produce at long range compared to your phone camera, which may actually have a higher-resolution sensor than the DSLR.
The sensors in the thermal camera modules of helicopters which can see for miles have only become high resolution fairly recently (older models of Apache Arrowhead only had 1 row of 180 detectors and therefore pixels, although these were cooled detectors and so not quite 1:1 comparable to microbolometers) - but it didn't matter much because they had huge lenses.
Of course, the caveat is that if you're using digital zoom, then the sensor resolution is directly responsible for the quality of image because it's just a crop and zoom, therefore a 2x digital zoom gives you half the pixels, if that makes sense.
Also, just a side-point re: seeing through walls and glass: You can see heat transfer through walls. So if someone is leaning against or standing very close to a thin wall, e.g. the wall of a shed or similar, you can pick up a heat signature which will become more pronounced over time as heat from their body is transfered to the wall. I know this isn't the point you were trying to make (thermals are not x-ray vision), but just thought I'd include it as a point of interest.
TL:DR the picture quality is the same whether you zoom in before processing or not, correct?
An adversary with thermals scares the shit out of me... Given how much info comes from the front in Ukraine I think we may be able to extract some level of doctrine surrounding it's utility and up to date techniques of camouflaging against it. Especially this winter I want to see how comfortable either side is using open fires to stay warm and so on. S2 Underground has some good lectures about this topic.
Dont forget the kurds giving the Turkish a run for their money with thermals on sniper rifles. Cheap, usable, feasible for combat use they are scary and no longer limited to apcs or helo aim pods.
Beez Spectralflauge solves this and they are actively working on a counter thermal viper hood
I wonder how most of the things will work in the winter too. They can say that it will be fine and it might be in the early days but let's see how well it works during a a heavy day and night snowfall or Blizzard.
Kurds and the Taliban have put in far more work w thermals in recent years than ukrops
Now imagine that the adversary has thermals on a copter hundreds of meters up, and artillery to fire on any signatures they detect that way. That's how it actually is right now.
I was on a recon training a few days ago and instructors specifically forbade us from building fires for that exact reason. We had to run jetboil stoves under tarps as the only heat source in a rain-soaked forest in freezing temps, but that's still better than getting woke up by 120mm.
OTOH, a thermal riflescope is perfect for perimeter security. I got my bro a 50mm 640*512 scope and it saved his bacon a couple of times when someone went bump in the night. There's no feasible way you can advance unnoticed on a thermal-equipped sentry unless he's asleep.
if only every youtube video was this concisely presented, thanks!!!
That’s some pretty solid info. I only have limited military experience with thermal vision. I always wondered what the intermittent “click” was.
In my experience with thermal/nvg combos in the military both together are the best possible option. With just NV I could easily fall in a hole. You say otherwise but holes stand out a lot with thermals,
During patrols with dual purpose nods I would occasionally click thermals on to keep track of my team mates and see what kind of trees/terrain laid before me.
Interesting. I busted my ass a few weeks ago not being able to see I was about to fall into a culvert. It was during a new moon+heavy fog. NVGs were unharmed 🙏
With using both did you have binocular NV on a helmet and then a handheld thermal device or scope? I’m interested in what the functional setup is
Congrats on 100k TH-cam subs!!!
Thanks T
You bring up a great point, why don’t more soldiers strap themselves with boulders to camouflage from thermal and non thermal imaging. Depending on the size of the boulders they could even be fairly bullet proof
Here I've been using a "tin foil" thermal blanket instead 😅
This is one of your better and more interesting videos to date Hop. Well done.
I saw this happening last night in real-time. As the sun went down, we lost a ton of contrast through the thermal, and even when the sun was up, I couldn't tell the difference between various distant hills. I could tell there was ground and sky, but the ground all looked flat and featureless.
Compare that to my DNV scopes, which show me lots of detail both at night and during the day, and which aren't affected by dusk. However, once all ambient light is gone, I can see much further with the thermal. The thermal shows me less detail, but makes targets identifiable very easily.
So, this is the second time I've watched this video. I picked up on a couple things I missed in the first viewing. I've bookmarked this video to return again. At present, I can't afford either, though that time will come. Keep up the good work Hop. Thank much from an old fart.
One important thing to note is that my analog night vision has never shut down due to cold, but my thermal most certainly has a limit on its ability to stay powered on in extreme cold.
Another excellent, informative video!
I fell in love with thermals in Afghanistan, and Im definitely eager to see you cover more content on them.
I loved the video. Thanks Hop. My only issue was I wish your video (and others I've seen) would list the device the images came from. For instance, the ending displayed some high-resolution images. It would have been very helpful to know what device (or specs) present that level of detail.
I live in Alaska. I would love to have a device as you stated for a quick sweep of the treeline before I let the dog out at night.
Finally thanks for this. It's really impressive how agm is putting out some products with better specs for cheaper when compared with similarly priced products from other major manufacturers
I just got the the agm rattler ts19. I love it and it's easy enough to figure out and use. Within an hour, of playing with it and sighting it, was pretty simple to use.
Bought the AGM 160 after your vid and while it's no great jam, I still think it's cool enough on it's own to have, (works decently as a "detector" only)and my kids get to see the world differently too. Saving for NV and a more competent thermal set up now.
Huh -
AGM 160 = HIKMICRO Lynx Pro LE10? They look the same
I don't comment often but I gotta say, these videos you post are so useful. NV and Thermal are expensive and it's nice to have useful information to reference for people who are not familiar with this type of niche.
You can get a Sightmark Wraith for under $500. To see how good they are, check my hunting videos. I'll be adding thermal comparisons in the coming weeks.
Wow! Thank you for making such a concise yet extremely informative video. The COTI type of thermal seems pretty interesting and I'd definitely like to see how well that performs in conjunction with some quality night vision.
My pleb ass knows I'm never going to afford an nvg or thermals, but your videos are so informative that each new piece you put out is addicting to watch.
Absolutely one of the BEST channels on TH-cam. Thx for all the great info, video after video. RockOn.StayFree.
This video is awesome! Very comprehensive! Especially good for people like me who are just starting out. I'm going to try it with my new Infiray thermal cameras.
Great video Hop! I have a thermal primer that we did also that just fell back in the line for video release. I'll link yours in the description of mine as it has a lot of similar info... And then I don't look like a crazy person lol -Walsh
I'm really impressed by this video! It offers a wealth of information that is incredibly valuable, especially for beginners like me. I'm eager to put it into practice with my newly acquired Infiray thermal cameras.
3:04
Something to point out, infrared sensors detect the infrared radiation emitted by the objects, which is dependent mostly by the object temperature AND its emissivity, the later being determined mostly by the material.
This is relevant since it means that two objects at the same temperature but of different composition will look different under thermal imaging. The objects on a room will be distinct under thermals, withing reason, due to their different materials even when sharing the same temperature. Same goes for outdoor scenarios, rocks, grass and dirt stand out from each other mostly due to their different emissivity rather than temperature.
Also any temperature scale on a thermal imaging device will be off unless calibrated for that specific material and ambient conditions.
I see endless uses for thermals but my heart stopped for a second when i saw the prices.
I completely agree, and in fact is exactly what I did. I have near IR night vision scope mounted on the rifle and spot with a hand held thermal. With the night vision you can lose a lot of information on the target if its in bushes etc, however the eye shine is significant and makes it clear where to look closely.
Testing out a COTI and reviewing it for us would be phenomenal.
garandthumb talked about it for about, 10 minutes in a relatively recent video.
I'm selling mine lol
I've seen people saying it has a very underwhelming battery life and range.
@@IFarmBugs battery life is like 3 hours tops. Range is a tough one. In the terrain in the southeast, any detection at range tends to blend in with the woodline. Idk if the Jerry will do better, but I'll find out next week.
Honestly, I love my N-Vision Halo XRF (thermal). I think other would agree, if you all were able to test out higher quality stuff with a BAE core (Trijicon REAP-IR, MK3, or N-Visio Halo) you would see thermal in a different light (pun intended). Makes AGM look like a kid’s toy. Keep in mind it’s a pay to play world, and just like quality night vision, high quality thermal scopes I mentioned are each $9,000+. In exchange for that amount of money, you get thermal sensitivity that’s far superior, and an image quality that allows you to see each hair of the animal’s fur coat with ease. Best of all, I can see perfectly in pitch black settings (set to black hot) and can even use it during the day. Achilles heel in all of this is glass. If a perpetrator is holding a giant window in front of him as he breaks in to my house then I’m dead 😂.
I stg Hop can read minds. I was wanting an in-depth video on thermal related stuff specifically monoculars, and I was thinking something along the lines of it'd be nice if Hot made a video over that, and then I get this gem in my recommendations.
I use a PVS14 on one side and a FLIR Breech on the other of a bridge. I can rotate the Flir up and down as needed. It's super small and light. The Flir is better in open terrain as it doesn't see through brush and when it's really dark. You can't use it to shoot as far as I can tell. It's most useful to see things moving in the dark with little cover that would be harder to see with NV. That said I really only need two buttons On and OFF, and a switch for white hot/dark hot. Like hop said using the menu walking around is annoying.
Whats it like trying to walk or do simple task with both pulled down into vision?
@@yamahapeanut44 For me it's ok you kinda see one or the other. So it's like just a single the PVS14 the other eye is more passive? I guess you'd say. Then you focus on the Flir and the PVS14 is passive. Trying to find the Flir Breech menu buttons in the dark and work the menu is awkward to turn it off when you want to save battery.
We get it bruh, you're rich
@@davidschlageter5962 thank you
@@musicman1eanda not really, a pair of binos is much more expensive
I find White Hot and Black Hot to be the easiest. Rainbow palettes are very distracting
great explanation video, now I'm clear for night vision and thermal vision devices . thanks for making this video ❤
I love your videos!! Hopefully you keep them coming.
according to this awesome breakdown (thanks dude) thermals in Escape From Tarkov are way too op, they have a lot of downsides and aren't just a "slap it on and see everything for free" type of device.
They really should add battery life (batteries are already in-game) not to mention a thermal blanket (or even a giant roll of industrial tinfoil) almost completely obscures heat signatures rendering anyone behind it nigh invisible to thermals but probably pretty obvious to night vision.
i like how his tactical analysis of thermals also involves his kitty
Regarding the NUC: It's correcting for detector drift. It is not calibrating.
Excellent info and top notch videography / presentation. Think I’ll subscribe!
i remember looking through my friend's helmet mounted thermal goggles in an airsoft game at night and seeing the enemy's stupid face thinking he was hidden lmao
I disagree on one point that you should get nv first and supplement with thermal. I think yes, you’ll get more use out of nightvision but if you’re interested in being able to operate at night it’s more important for you to get thermal early. Not because it’ll improve YOUR sight, but because you need all the time you can get to understand the quirks of avoiding thermal detection. Avoiding being seen under night vision is not really that difficult. But you absolutely need lots of practice to avoid being detected by thermals and that’s the most common way anyone will try to detect you at night.
Very well done just got a FLIR 640 bi ocular and need to learn its workings
congrats for making me feel better about the steiner cinder i got on closeout
i love how all your sample recordings have cats 10/10
I've have 2 years experience hunting with thermal scopes hunting various critters. I'm using the pulsar thermion XM 50. And my buddy is using flir something. The only real downside is ranging. The XM has a 5.5x so I'm having to guess range from the size it is in the scope it's not ideal but I've gotten pretty good at it. If i had to do it over again I'd get a thermal hand held
ange finder and a NV rifle scope. Thermal for target spotting and ranging NV for final target id and better image of the target. If you do go thermal, do yourself a favor. PAY THE EXTRA MONEY FOR THE RANGE FINDER. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR IN THE THERMAL WORLD. DON'T CHEAP OUT YOU WILL BE DISAPPOINTED!
very nice and honest presentation ...... i like that style
9:10 is so real. I was very confused with 4k naming, especially considering the fact it's isn't even 4k horizontal
Thermal > Night vision
Night vision just gives you the same leverage of finding your enemies that you would have during the day time. Thermal actually tells you where they are.
Clip-ons offer good value as you can put an optical adapter on it to serve the monocular option for simply sweeping the surroundings. If you you wanna shoot a deer with it the you can clip it on to the scope. Depending on the adapter for clipping onto the scope there is a good chance no rezeroing is needed
This answered some questions I had, thank you for the information
As an avid night hunter and tactical larper I approve this message
You did an awesome job on this video.
Loving the more frequently uploads, hop.
If you were wondering Analog night vision tubes work through the amplification of light. Incoming light photons (what our eyes see), are converted into electrons, and then those electrons are multiplies over and over again, which is the actual intensification process. Once the electrons are multiplied, they run into a phosphor screen, which glows for our eyes to see.
This is fairly oversimplified, but that's the basic process. Of course, the actual process is much more technical than that.
You answered all my questions thank you!
watching so i do not die
The ultimate version would be a hybrid between the two. Take both and then use digital processing to merge them. Focusing on potential moving things
That still means digital night vision which right now is crap compared to good analog
The video switched to a survival horror game at 5:50. I totally expected something bad to be on screen after the sensor recovered from freezing. The sudden inclusion of the ambient sound helped too.
Thanks Hop- very cool stuff- informative and concise.
You being Nutnfancy's little brother is exactly what I like about this channel.
Hop and Brass are the team we need but don't deserve
Maybe I just missed him mention this but one of the drawbacks for me is that in my old age I have started wearing glasses and have trouble seeing things up close while my long distance vision is still comparable to that of a hawk. When I look down a normal scope I see everything fine but when I use my thermal monocular I have to wear my reading glasses. At night this can be an issue because of the glare. It's also the same as a mini tv screen so it ruins any natural night vision (eye dilation). I also cannot press my face to the eyepiece because of my glasses so if I was trying to be stealthy my face would be lit up by the thermal imagers screen. I don't have a thermal scope but I imagine this could be a problem with one.
Highly unlikely your vision is anywhere near as good as a hawk
@@wedrivebynight You're a F*cking IDIOT! GO troll somewhere else.
I appreciated it when you waxed poetic about the Lovecraftian elder gods to reference manual night vision. I completely agree. Fhtaghn! Cthulhu Fhtaghn!
I was seriously considering all of your points, Hop, but I was interrupted by a strong desire to pat the happy boy at 15:30. The battery issue for thermals may be doubly irritating because some manufacturers (looking at you Pulsar and Pard) use proprietary batteries. There are work-arounds like buying more proprietary batteries or small power banks, but if I'm using my thermal then things are bad and those batteries have a limited 500-cycle lifespan.
I don't want to buy anything with a built in battery or a proprietary battery. Put a C port on it for using power banks but stick with standard battery types. Look what happened with our phones. Old phone with replaceable battery...replacement battery $14...New phone built in battery...new phone $1,000.
Hop -- You conclude that people should consider getting a NV goggle plus a hand held IR monocular.
Could you test which IR monoculars held in front of your NV goggles work best, a form of dual IR/NV technology in one ghetto system?
A guy on Etsy makes a head mount that'll fit the agm asp.
I wanna get one and have my sionyx aurora on 1 side the the thermal on the other side
Why
Lol you can’t look through a 14 into a monocular…
@@Outdoors_nomad_life lol,I wonder what it would look like lol
Thanks
AMAZING! Right to the point. Thank you!
The timing of this video was perfect. I was reading an article this morning about a FLIR thermal device for phones and I really didn't know how to decipher the specs.
Does the government restrict the refresh rate? The article implies that they do.
1:30 I used to drive a stryker using a fixed thermal camera behind the steering wheel.
Thank you. At least i have some knowledge of what to look for and what to be aware of.
Something to keep in mind when it comes to pixel pitch: a smaller pitch also implies smaller pixels! While you are right with the resolution, pixel size shouldn't be neglected either. Generally, the larger a pixel, the more light it collects, leading to a more sensitive sensor. It also makes the requirements for the lenses less difficult to achieve (i.e. a worse lense isn't as ciritical for a sensor with large pixels).
IDK how I got here, but thanks for being entertaining.
Wow. Hop's knowledge is deep.
Wish you would have shown and talked about…”this is what it looks like at this distance, this distance, this distance.” However, still a good video.
Hell yeah and cover how to camouflage to prevent detection by the thermals operator how can we fool them etc etc thanks hopp love your videos man thanks for the info as always
I chose the Helion XP 38 and bought a 50mm swap lens too, about 4k all together. These things are really freakin cool.
What are the nods being used at 0:43? It looks fantastic.
thanks for all the information...
Thanks, your last thermal monocular video sent me down the thermal hole. I don't like to move much and appreciated the zero light (visible wl) necessary aspect. I hated zeroing too and find the weapon sight TS-25-384 produces a god awful image in detail and claustrophobic in FOV compared to a similar optical day sights. In very dark environs it seems like a super power though. Sure wish it could see through glass so I wouldn't have to open something to see outside my house.
thanks for the testimonial, I have one though, don't poor water on a hot suppressor especially if it is annealed steel, it could cause warping and stresses in the metal.
Really well presented.. you should start a YT channel haha. Meanwhile, the dog just thinks you look like a dork on account that he sees perfectly in the dark. 😉
Servus aus Österreich!
Great video and info. I own a Trijicon IR patrol. Thermal kit. I run it in my scar 20. Top of the line products only
Awesome video as always!
Highly recommend the thermal from AGM!
That was genuinely really informative and now I know just about everything I needed to about thermal optics. Than you.
Many years ago I played a game called Metroid Prime where you get a thermal visor that allows you to see in thermal vision.
If it is at all possible I would like too see a video on some of the coti systems, learningaboutthat would be nice. Great video as always btw.
I have been running the Accufire Incendis which is nice for Hog hunting. 60hz refresh rate and clip on form factor has been awesome. Combine that with the fact they're a local company here in Texas makes it great if something were to go wrong I can bitch at them in person.
Any updates for this? GREAT VID, love it bud.
I'd say in about 10 years we'll have phones that can do thermal and digital night vision
Several phones are already capable of thermal imaging.
I play airsoft with a nightvision scope called the pard008, I find it much better than looking through night vision goggles as clarity is much better
Did you try to get ahold of ATN? You should if not. I think they'd loan you a scope to evaluate. Not sure if they're great for combat, but a whole lot of us PCP rifle pest control guys sure do like them.
Hella yeah, power point slides!
I will say I have found thermal devices to be almost useless in heavily vegetated areas. Nods are the preferred option with a small mono for thermal. Which is what hop mentioned in the end.