My late father worked all his life in the admin end of CIE.He said that thos licomotives were notoriously unreliable. They broke down frequently with the constant messing up of schedules and caused him no end of headaches. They were eventually re engined with GM engines and their numbers given an r suffix to indicate this.
@@SouthernYardthat was because of their original crossley engines which were later re-engined with GM engines by CIE in the mid to late 1970s I believe.
In retrospect, CIE should've turned to American engineers at the very start since they had already been building successful and reliable diesels since the 1930s.
We all do! My dad recalled when he was about 11 or 12 years old being told that the then brand new A class was due on a knock special through Tuam. He went to a local bridge and he still remembers to this day the loudness of these engines. He said they emitted extreme noise!
@@SouthernYard could have been the end of railways in Ireland if they turned out to be duds. They got very lucky that GM sold them engines when they needed them.
These locos, in fact, both A and C classes were in use all the way until the early 1990s, some 40 years after being introduced. They were later replaced by more modern and powerful IÉ 201 class, which is in use to this day.
They gave good service as marine engines, they just weren't suited to the on-off power demands of rail use, and the jolting they got inside a loco. They weren't the only ones to find that was a much more challenging environment than they thought
Thanks for sharing this very interesting film. At 15:12 and 15:32, we see a speedometer that's obviously defective, with the needle flickering randomly up and down over a range of about 10 mph. It's surprising that they weren't embarrassed by showing this in a promo for Metro Vic locos. Was this a common problem with the early models?
Speedometer was never reliable, that's why they were replaced. Likewise the fuel gauge. Indeed an awful lot of the locomotive, although the crossley engine was by far the most notorious. As for metropolitan Vickers being embarrassed, the film director/editor and publicity department probably didn't notice anything was wrong.
They would have been scraped only for the re-engining of the fleet which doubled the HP of the C class to 1,100 hp and they kept the Dublin suburban going until the Darts came in 1984.
Always thought it was strange that they had the red/white marker lights, but no headlamp (as far as I can see). Surely even steam trains had headlamps and ran in the dark at that stage?
Steam trains in Ireland had no headlights then and still don’t! So it was wasn’t unusual for the replacement diesels to have none. Seems bonkers now but times were different.
The UK was the same, the railway is fenced off in most locations and headlights were considered unnecessary, apart from a few locomotives fitted with car headlights in the Scottish Highlands. Proper headlights started to be fitted in the mid 1970s, with the advent of 125mph running.
It's a pity they hadn't newer carraiges to run with them the coaching stock was clapped out steam age stuff all non standard.remained that way until cravens arrived and Mk 2s.
As has already been commented on, the propaganda advertising in this lovely old film did not live up to the fact the Crossley engines were woeful. I think part of CIE's decision was influenced by British Rail's hopes for their own Crossley engined Class 28 Co-Bo's, which were also built by Metropolitan Vickers, and which later proved to be equally hopeless. Both the A Class 001 and C (later, renamed B) 201 Class Metro Vicks did give excellent service, once they were refitted with GM engines, which prompted Irish Rail only to buy GM locos from then on. What I never understood was the notion that 1200hp and 550hp was adequate for their needs. Even the 121s and 141s with their 950hp and the 181s with their 1,100hp engines seem very underpowered by today's standards. I know the GM engines in the A Class were rated at 1,325hp, and even had some of 1,650hp; but it was not really until the 071s appeared, did 2,450hp appear. I would love to find out why Irish Rail opted for such low powered engines. Was it fuel consumption ? Was it over optimism on their performance ? I would be indebted to be enlightened by someone who knows !
Vic Sams, In the 1950s, Ireland was a poor country, the track was only fit for low axle weight and most trains could be hauled by a single locomotive of 950 or 1200hp. For faster or heavier trains, the GM locomotives could run in multiple, 1900, 2050 or 2200 hp depending on whether 141 or 181 class locos. Of course a pair of Bo-Bo locos weighed 135 tons compared with the 99 tons of a 071 class, equivalent to pulling an extra coach. While underpowered by our standard, or even by international standards in the 1950s, the standard passenger train up to 8 coaches and a heating van, were all capable of being hauled in theory by a single GM Bo-Bo, and the heaviest goods trains by an A class. Even though they were diabolical, I saw an A class lift 70 four wheel goods vans out of heuston yard unaided. Whether they reached Cork without a failure, I cannot say, but it was an impressive sight. Incidentally if an A class was failed and a 141 unavailable, a C class might be asked to act-up. Such a situation arose about 1970 on the Wexford goods. It was 40 wagons and amazingly it got past Wicklow before failing on the ten mile climb towards Rathdrum.
@@thomasburke2683 Thank you Thomas. I am indebted to you for taking the time and effort to post such a kind and detailed reply. I know axle weights vary. Canada / US was 40 tons, now increasing up to 60 tons. UK 25 tons (at RA10) - the heaviest in Europe, France 22.5 tons. Norway 15 tons (the lightest in Europe). Not sure if the wider track gauge is a hinderance for axle weight. I know it gives a more stable quality of ride, though. I have travelled over every CIE / NIR route (except Midleton and M3 Parkway that re-opened after my last visit, and Bleach Green Junction to Larne Harbour that was closed when I visited due to a rockfall at Whitehead). I love the Dublin Rosslare line, which is a personal favourite of mine. I fondly remember travelling behind several A (001) Class both on charter trains and scheduled services. Plus pairs of 121s, pairs of 141s, and mixed pairs. Even E428 from Ballina to Claremorris, and pairs of 071s and pairs of the new 201s. I have visited nearly 30 times, and the wife's family comes from Co. Limerick. Never managed to have the courage to ask for a footplate ride in Ireland, but I have done so in later life across Canada, Portugal, Spain, France, Italy, Austria and even driven a train in Hungary. My railway job in the UK came with an all-line cabpass. Spent many a happy holiday in Ireland. Great people. Good food, scenery, Guinness, and Tullamore Dew !
The Crossley engines were appalling and unreliable, and had to be replaced with reliable more powerful US made GM/EMD power plants which gave these unreliable locos a new lease of life.
@@SouthernYard Yes politics alright and exchange controls enforced by the sterling zone back then. Thank goodness we're in the EU now. The re-engined GM/EMD units kept the A classes in service until the mid 1990s. The GM 071 class are still in service nearly 50 years on such was their reliability and build quality. The same cannot be said of the 201 class have of which have been on a scrap line for past 20 years.
They were dreadful locomotives, as originally engined. Unreliable and underpowered. They were vastly improved when the British diesels were replaced by GM engines, beginning in 1967. By 1971, all 94 'Metrovicks' were fitted with replacement EMD 645 engines. The ''Metrovicks' were the last British stock purchased. CIE, now Iarnród Éireann, is exclusively powered by GM locomotives since the early-1960s. Currently, only the Dublin-Cork and Dublin-Belfast services are locomotive hauled. The rest of the network operates with electric or diesel multiple units.
I was starting school back then. I remember those locomotives. Steam was still around.
I think they emitted more fumes than a steam loco, so not sure they were massive improvement over steam.
My late father worked all his life in the admin end of CIE.He said that thos licomotives were notoriously unreliable. They broke down frequently with the constant messing up of schedules and caused him no end of headaches. They were eventually re engined with GM engines and their numbers given an r suffix to indicate this.
They were an operator’s nightmare by the sounds of it. Thankfully for everyone’s sake GM came to the rescue.
@@SouthernYardthat was because of their original crossley engines which were later re-engined with GM engines by CIE in the mid to late 1970s I believe.
Unusual to see an A class sitting on four wheel bogies, presumably on standard gauge track at the metropolitan Vickers factory.
In retrospect, CIE should've turned to American engineers at the very start since they had already been building successful and reliable diesels since the 1930s.
As soon as they were out of warranty the complete injection system was replaced with Lucas Cav units.
Seeing a goods train in Killiney is quite rare in 2023, let alone from one of BoCo's cousins.
That fella with the grease gun, carumba !!!
No messing with him!
Good video. Wish I was old enough to see the A class!
We all do! My dad recalled when he was about 11 or 12 years old being told that the then brand new A class was due on a knock special through Tuam. He went to a local bridge and he still remembers to this day the loudness of these engines. He said they emitted extreme noise!
@@SouthernYard That's for sure - they truly snarled with a gutteral roar!
Fantastic film. Was risky giving an order that size to the one company.
Sure was, hard to believe no prototype was ordered for testing given the size of the order.
@@SouthernYard could have been the end of railways in Ireland if they turned out to be duds. They got very lucky that GM sold them engines when they needed them.
They were very fortunate GM were so accommodating.
Good looking livery when clean. The speedometre needle looks very shakey.
Speedo seems faulty.
These locos, in fact, both A and C classes were in use all the way until the early 1990s, some 40 years after being introduced. They were later replaced by more modern and powerful IÉ 201 class, which is in use to this day.
Great film
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it.
They gave good service as marine engines, they just weren't suited to the on-off power demands of rail use, and the jolting they got inside a loco. They weren't the only ones to find that was a much more challenging environment than they thought
Hard to believe CIE ordered 94 locos without even have tested one for a period of time.
The crossely engines were changed for general motors ones. That did improve the 001/metropolitan vickers 201s
Thanks for sharing this very interesting film. At 15:12 and 15:32, we see a speedometer that's obviously defective, with the needle flickering randomly up and down over a range of about 10 mph. It's surprising that they weren't embarrassed by showing this in a promo for Metro Vic locos. Was this a common problem with the early models?
I’m not certain and I thought the same myself. Will try and find out if it was a common problem.
Speedometer was never reliable, that's why they were replaced.
Likewise the fuel gauge.
Indeed an awful lot of the locomotive, although the crossley engine was by far the most notorious.
As for metropolitan Vickers being embarrassed, the film director/editor and publicity department probably didn't notice anything was wrong.
Speedos were replaced with Hasler units and moved to the left corner of the cab.
They would have been scraped only for the re-engining of the fleet which doubled the HP of the C class to 1,100 hp and they kept the Dublin suburban going until the Darts came in 1984.
And they finished up with GM units which proved much more reliable than Crossly
A costly exercise for them but big benefit in the long run.
Hitting 70 MPH 1n 1957, well 65 years later max speed 100 MPH, exception Mark 4 Dublin-Cork max 125 MPH in places.
There is no operation over 100mph on the island of Ireland. Mark 4s are limited to that speed.
I assume Oliver Bulleid is visible in the inspection scenes, but can't pick him out - is he there?
I think he’s the man descending the steps of the loco at 6.55 to 7.05.
That's him ... He retired in 1958
@@robertlarkin3463 i did also wonder if he might be the gentleman on the right inspecting the Crossley engiines at @07:38
Always thought it was strange that they had the red/white marker lights, but no headlamp (as far as I can see). Surely even steam trains had headlamps and ran in the dark at that stage?
Steam trains in Ireland had no headlights then and still don’t! So it was wasn’t unusual for the replacement diesels to have none. Seems bonkers now but times were different.
The UK was the same, the railway is fenced off in most locations and headlights were considered unnecessary, apart from a few locomotives fitted with car headlights in the Scottish Highlands. Proper headlights started to be fitted in the mid 1970s, with the advent of 125mph running.
Headlights similar to the newly acquired GM's were fitted when they were re-engined in the 70's
A diesel engine that size operating at 600 RPM would last forever, and they did they weren't scraped because they no longer worked just outdated.
They were hopelessly unreliable, not developed enough for rail work. Fine in a marine environment with constant power for hours (or days).
It's a pity they hadn't newer carraiges to run with them the coaching stock was clapped out steam age stuff all non standard.remained that way until cravens arrived and Mk 2s.
As has already been commented on, the propaganda advertising in this lovely old film did not live up to the fact the Crossley engines were woeful. I think part of CIE's decision was influenced by British Rail's hopes for their own Crossley engined Class 28 Co-Bo's, which were also built by Metropolitan Vickers, and which later proved to be equally hopeless. Both the A Class 001 and C (later, renamed B) 201 Class Metro Vicks did give excellent service, once they were refitted with GM engines, which prompted Irish Rail only to buy GM locos from then on. What I never understood was the notion that 1200hp and 550hp was adequate for their needs. Even the 121s and 141s with their 950hp and the 181s with their 1,100hp engines seem very underpowered by today's standards. I know the GM engines in the A Class were rated at 1,325hp, and even had some of 1,650hp; but it was not really until the 071s appeared, did 2,450hp appear. I would love to find out why Irish Rail opted for such low powered engines. Was it fuel consumption ? Was it over optimism on their performance ? I would be indebted to be enlightened by someone who knows !
Vic Sams,
In the 1950s, Ireland was a poor country, the track was only fit for low axle weight and most trains could be hauled by a single locomotive of 950 or 1200hp. For faster or heavier trains, the GM locomotives could run in multiple, 1900, 2050 or 2200 hp depending on whether 141 or 181 class locos. Of course a pair of Bo-Bo locos weighed 135 tons compared with the 99 tons of a 071 class, equivalent to pulling an extra coach.
While underpowered by our standard, or even by international standards in the 1950s, the standard passenger train up to 8 coaches and a heating van, were all capable of being hauled in theory by a single GM Bo-Bo, and the heaviest goods trains by an A class. Even though they were diabolical, I saw an A class lift 70 four wheel goods vans out of heuston yard unaided. Whether they reached Cork without a failure, I cannot say, but it was an impressive sight.
Incidentally if an A class was failed and a 141 unavailable, a C class might be asked to act-up. Such a situation arose about 1970 on the Wexford goods. It was 40 wagons and amazingly it got past Wicklow before failing on the ten mile climb towards Rathdrum.
@@thomasburke2683 Thank you Thomas. I am indebted to you for taking the time and effort to post such a kind and detailed reply. I know axle weights vary. Canada / US was 40 tons, now increasing up to 60 tons. UK 25 tons (at RA10) - the heaviest in Europe, France 22.5 tons. Norway 15 tons (the lightest in Europe). Not sure if the wider track gauge is a hinderance for axle weight. I know it gives a more stable quality of ride, though. I have travelled over every CIE / NIR route (except Midleton and M3 Parkway that re-opened after my last visit, and Bleach Green Junction to Larne Harbour that was closed when I visited due to a rockfall at Whitehead). I love the Dublin Rosslare line, which is a personal favourite of mine. I fondly remember travelling behind several A (001) Class both on charter trains and scheduled services. Plus pairs of 121s, pairs of 141s, and mixed pairs. Even E428 from Ballina to Claremorris, and pairs of 071s and pairs of the new 201s. I have visited nearly 30 times, and the wife's family comes from Co. Limerick. Never managed to have the courage to ask for a footplate ride in Ireland, but I have done so in later life across Canada, Portugal, Spain, France, Italy, Austria and even driven a train in Hungary. My railway job in the UK came with an all-line cabpass. Spent many a happy holiday in Ireland. Great people. Good food, scenery, Guinness, and Tullamore Dew !
@@vicsams4431 the U.S. hasn't gone past 40 tons as standard yet.
Theyd have been better to keep the steam engines. Abysmal diesels till they were updated with GM powerplants.
They seemed noisier and polluted more than the steam engines they replaced! Didn’t seem like progress, though it clearly was in technological terms.
The Crossley engines were appalling and unreliable, and had to be replaced with reliable more powerful US made GM/EMD power plants which gave these unreliable locos a new lease of life.
Hindsight is great. They should have ordered off GM but history, politics and money played a role in the original decision.
@@SouthernYard Yes politics alright and exchange controls enforced by the sterling zone back then. Thank goodness we're in the EU now. The re-engined GM/EMD units kept the A classes in service until the mid 1990s. The GM 071 class are still in service nearly 50 years on such was their reliability and build quality. The same cannot be said of the 201 class have of which have been on a scrap line for past 20 years.
They were dreadful locomotives, as originally engined. Unreliable and underpowered.
They were vastly improved when the British diesels were replaced by GM engines, beginning in 1967. By 1971, all 94 'Metrovicks' were fitted with replacement EMD 645 engines.
The ''Metrovicks' were the last British stock purchased. CIE, now Iarnród Éireann, is exclusively powered by GM locomotives since the early-1960s.
Currently, only the Dublin-Cork and Dublin-Belfast services are locomotive hauled. The rest of the network operates with electric or diesel multiple units.