@@TheRetroChannel nah, it’s a tool and it works. I like it. I’ve got a Siglent 1200 series that does more than I need it to. Yours seems more than up for the task.
"Fake" AliExpress chips are not all the same. Some are blanks or an entirely other type of chip rebranded, some are known factory rejects, some are factory B-quality chips, some are chips desoldered with excessive heat and/or inferior ESD-protection and thus damaged that way, and some are "genuine pirate-copies"/clones like the STM32F103 clones [CS32/CKS/GD]F103 with or without the correct branding used. Even genuine chips are often damaged by the packing process or lack of proper packing material for shipping. I have stopped ordering chips from AliExpress entirely. If you order from there at least try to stay away from the deals that are "too good". If the price is 10x higher at reputable dealers, then that's a red flag.
17:43 neat that you added some tests with the scope, beyond what we've seen in Adrian's Digital Basement, for instance. What strikes me about this is that you showed that the bad CPU is working in many ways. I wonder if it has been tested, just not in a C64. I think I've seen Adrian show, for instance, there are others ways to test like with a NOP generator. It's possible a seller might have tested this as good, no?
Hmm not sure, they may test them in a rig of some kind. I think most of these chips from China were likely pulled out of machines many years ago and they've been sitting in storage since then. But who knows the real story of how so many ended up there, maybe they didn't even make it into a machine. I wonder if half the sellers of these even know the history, they probably bought them in a big junk lot and packaged them up for sale.
Regarding the dead 6510: wouldn't it make sense in general to check if a push-pull pin (i.e. no other IC "writes" onto this signal) is toggling? I once had a defective AY-3-8910 that wasn't totally crapped. Sound was working but some of its parallel port pins (used in the Atari ST for FDD drive/side-select signals) did not show any life anymore. So partially defective ICs do exist.
@3:15 Weren't most, if not all 6510's made in the U.S.? As I recall, MOS's main fab was in Norristown, Pennsylvania, and the secondary suppliers for MOS chips were U.S. based.
Yes and yes. The main fab was based in Pennsylvania but they did have chips produced in other fabs across the globe. Most ones you find in PAL machines are from fabs in Asia
I have a 250407 board with a chip from week 38 of 83 made in the US but another from the following year from Asia. Both of my in laws are from King of Prussia PA and worked there for a while in the 80s. I always look for them in old photos of the place.
That acetone test is painful to see when it shows a fake. The ink just comes off with no pressure, like wiping white board marker off a whiteboard. Had it recently with an NTSC vic chip from ebay. The seller is still on there with them listed even though I reported it to ebay and got a refund. And somehow, they still have a 100% rating.
@@TheRetroChannel Was happy to see you didnt get fakes of that magnitude and 50$ is a great price for 4. They seem to be going for around $25each at the moment.
I think, the chips from AliExpress are not really fake. I have seen fully functional chips painted anf laser etched a new label. If you have four good chips, it is unlikely, that the 5th is fake. But maybe the chips are pulls from recycling. The „touched up“ pins are also pretty normal. When I order from AliExpress, a 10% failure rate is acceptable. Last year, I had ordered 2 6526 CIA. They came in perfect condition and where working. Then I have bought two more, from the same store. The price had increased quite a bit (maybe to my good recension). Those two chips arrived earlier this week and both were not functional. They had touched up pins, but the rest was looking genuine.
I should get myself one of those ZIF64s...well, get a spare C64 and turn it into a ZIF64. I guess buying chips from AliExpress continues to be a bit of a crapshoot.
It's takes a bit work to build one but it's certainly worth it. You do have to get a little creative with some of the bypass caps but they're easy enough to relocate to the underside of the board.
There is a rumour that a chip could be brought back to life when baking it in the oven. Adrian tried it out on his channel. Maybe it would help with your faulty cpu.
I did see that but from memory he had little success. In saying that I do have another experiment that has yielded some interesting results, stay tuned
If old chips are fakes, they, usually are sanded and laser engraved.. By experience - didn't see painted logo on fake chip by now. 😂 One time received sanded, painted and laser engraved Eeprom chips.. That was surprise when they worked.. 😲 My conclusion was, that chips were from different manufacturers with different, but compatible part number.. Seller loses one star in my review because I can't be sure about original accessing time..
Hey good news my youngest-you were actually born in the 31st week of ‘83 & are definitely legitimate (I know that cause I was there & so was your Dad-wink, wink say no more) 😉😁 And besides that what a brilliant young man you turned out to be (hmm where did that come from?) Must be high IQ’s in the genes somewhere! 😍
Or again you’re a combination of good & bad ‘chips off the old block’! Ok I’ll stop being silly now when I know you are trying to run a serious channel here....🤔
Thanks Mum, I wouldn't be where I am today without you guys, I wouldn't be here at all I guess 😉 And yes I did calculate it to the 31st week after filming but left it in the video anyway, bending the truth a little there
![ภาพนี้ก็ฮาเหมือนกันนะเนี้ย #2 SS8 [ พากย์นรก MEME.EXE ] | easy boy](/img/n.gif)
Great Video! It's good to see more videos going to the scope. I'm glad you got a few good ones!
I don't know why, but I always enjoy watching scopes on pins and comparing results. Good video ;-)
Thanks, I feel the same. It would look nicer on a better scope but hey what can you do
@@TheRetroChannel nah, it’s a tool and it works. I like it. I’ve got a Siglent 1200 series that does more than I need it to. Yours seems more than up for the task.
Ty enjoyed seeing what a working 6510 should look like.
"Fake" AliExpress chips are not all the same. Some are blanks or an entirely other type of chip rebranded, some are known factory rejects, some are factory B-quality chips, some are chips desoldered with excessive heat and/or inferior ESD-protection and thus damaged that way, and some are "genuine pirate-copies"/clones like the STM32F103 clones [CS32/CKS/GD]F103 with or without the correct branding used. Even genuine chips are often damaged by the packing process or lack of proper packing material for shipping. I have stopped ordering chips from AliExpress entirely. If you order from there at least try to stay away from the deals that are "too good". If the price is 10x higher at reputable dealers, then that's a red flag.
17:43 neat that you added some tests with the scope, beyond what we've seen in Adrian's Digital Basement, for instance.
What strikes me about this is that you showed that the bad CPU is working in many ways. I wonder if it has been tested, just not in a C64. I think I've seen Adrian show, for instance, there are others ways to test like with a NOP generator. It's possible a seller might have tested this as good, no?
Hmm not sure, they may test them in a rig of some kind. I think most of these chips from China were likely pulled out of machines many years ago and they've been sitting in storage since then.
But who knows the real story of how so many ended up there, maybe they didn't even make it into a machine. I wonder if half the sellers of these even know the history, they probably bought them in a big junk lot and packaged them up for sale.
@@TheRetroChannel One things for sure, they're not sitting over there with a ZIF 64 and a 'scope and testing 'em. :)
I hope they're allowed to sit.
Regarding the dead 6510: wouldn't it make sense in general to check if a push-pull pin (i.e. no other IC "writes" onto this signal) is toggling? I once had a defective AY-3-8910 that wasn't totally crapped. Sound was working but some of its parallel port pins (used in the Atari ST for FDD drive/side-select signals) did not show any life anymore. So partially defective ICs do exist.
@3:15 Weren't most, if not all 6510's made in the U.S.? As I recall, MOS's main fab was in Norristown, Pennsylvania, and the secondary suppliers for MOS chips were U.S. based.
Commodore had a few factories in the Far East, including Hong Kong. I wonder if they had the 6510s made locally to save on shipping/production costs?
Yes and yes. The main fab was based in Pennsylvania but they did have chips produced in other fabs across the globe. Most ones you find in PAL machines are from fabs in Asia
@@TheRetroChannel Interesting! I was not aware of that.
I have a 250407 board with a chip from week 38 of 83 made in the US but another from the following year from Asia. Both of my in laws are from King of Prussia PA and worked there for a while in the 80s. I always look for them in old photos of the place.
That acetone test is painful to see when it shows a fake. The ink just comes off with no pressure, like wiping white board marker off a whiteboard. Had it recently with an NTSC vic chip from ebay. The seller is still on there with them listed even though I reported it to ebay and got a refund. And somehow, they still have a 100% rating.
That's really annoying when they know they're selling fake chips and just continue to do it. And eBay doesn't seem to care less
@@TheRetroChannel Was happy to see you didnt get fakes of that magnitude and 50$ is a great price for 4. They seem to be going for around $25each at the moment.
I think, the chips from AliExpress are not really fake. I have seen fully functional chips painted anf laser etched a new label. If you have four good chips, it is unlikely, that the 5th is fake. But maybe the chips are pulls from recycling. The „touched up“ pins are also pretty normal. When I order from AliExpress, a 10% failure rate is acceptable. Last year, I had ordered 2 6526 CIA. They came in perfect condition and where working. Then I have bought two more, from the same store. The price had increased quite a bit (maybe to my good recension). Those two chips arrived earlier this week and both were not functional. They had touched up pins, but the rest was looking genuine.
Agreed, it's a bit of a gamble but at least their buyer protection seems pretty good (unless you forget about them for 6 months)
I should get myself one of those ZIF64s...well, get a spare C64 and turn it into a ZIF64. I guess buying chips from AliExpress continues to be a bit of a crapshoot.
It's takes a bit work to build one but it's certainly worth it. You do have to get a little creative with some of the bypass caps but they're easy enough to relocate to the underside of the board.
4 out of 5 ain't bad but 5 out of 5 is what you paid for.....but at least you have 4 spares of a hard to find CPU.
True, could have been better but then again it could have been a lot worse
There is a rumour that a chip could be brought back to life when baking it in the oven. Adrian tried it out on his channel. Maybe it would help with your faulty cpu.
I did see that but from memory he had little success. In saying that I do have another experiment that has yielded some interesting results, stay tuned
Assuming it works, would you trust it long-term in a product you sold on or gave to anyone else?
If old chips are fakes, they, usually are sanded and laser engraved.. By experience - didn't see painted logo on fake chip by now. 😂
One time received sanded, painted and laser engraved Eeprom chips.. That was surprise when they worked.. 😲 My conclusion was, that chips were from different manufacturers with different, but compatible part number.. Seller loses one star in my review because I can't be sure about original accessing time..
Hey good news my youngest-you were actually born in the 31st week of ‘83 & are definitely legitimate (I know that cause I was there & so was your Dad-wink, wink say no more) 😉😁 And besides that what a brilliant young man you turned out to be (hmm where did that come from?) Must be high IQ’s in the genes somewhere! 😍
Or again you’re a combination of good & bad ‘chips off the old block’! Ok I’ll stop being silly now when I know you are trying to run a serious channel here....🤔
Thanks Mum, I wouldn't be where I am today without you guys, I wouldn't be here at all I guess 😉
And yes I did calculate it to the 31st week after filming but left it in the video anyway, bending the truth a little there
@@TheRetroChannel it was very funny-your videos are always entertaining as well as informative. 😊