My message to the forest service: The fact that trail maintenance is done by volunteers, like myself, makes this even worse. It's a parking lot, not a campground. I highly doubt that the third party concessionaires are going to refund your fee when you have to turn around half a mile into your hike because you've already run into multiple downed trees and washed out trails, a fact of life in these parts. We have one paid parking location in our local section of the Los Padres at Piedra Blanca. I've always parked just outside the entrance to the lot and walked in. This past weekend I witnessed overflowing trash cans and filthy pit toilets. I urge the trail crews to refuse to maintain any trails where others are trying to profit off of parking fees, and everyone to pressure your national representatives.
To the forestry service: thank you for finding a method to finally nail, the people that abuse the passes and overuse the park. Thank you for making them pay their fair share finally for the amount of time they use the park.. thank you for removing them from the crowd for the person who wants to come every once in a while and doesn’t wanna have to walk into nature lovers that have a hobby that abused the park. And finally, I hope the forestry service Institute and mandatory rescue insurance policy for any heart hiker that goes off the path other than a commonly traveled path that most most people use.
We already pay taxes which have always paid to fund our US Forest Services, Then we rolled over when they charged us for our campgrounds etc! ....every time they add a fee, its simply another tax!..we the citizens own these forests, lakes, campgrounds and we should not have to pay to use our own land and services!!!! ..ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@@maxwellblackwell5045 you answered your question for yourself. The general public doesn’t use the infrastructure so why don’t you pay more? You realize you trapped yourself.
@@HisDudeness2023 not at all. Our tax dollars are already paying for it. So why should I pay more? Their excuse is they need the money to keep up with the use when you just admitted most people don't use it. So explain why I should pay on top of being taxed for it? Everyone who pays taxes pays for it even if they never use the parks. Justify that.
I really don't have a problem making a paying the USFS, but it makes me beyond sick to think of making a payment to a private equity owned company like Mountain High (owned by Invision Capital) to access the great outdoors.
Privatization of our public lands. The company managing the parking lot will go bankrupt, then there will be no services and the Forest Service will shut down the trail head.
It is these companies that started the Adventure Pass program via lobbying Congress to pass the law. It's all a capitalist corporate grab of open land for aholes to get rich. Eff em. Don't ever pay for an adventure pass. they can't enforce it.
@@jefffleishman6566 the government just outsourced it because they don’t wanna have to deal with managing it. The natural question is why do we need the forest service?
Thank you so much for sharing. I've submitted a story tip to each of the local tv news stations (ABC 7, CBS/KCAL, KTLA). I linked your website and TH-cam video. Hopefully, at least one station will pick it up.
The USFS is one of the worst federal agencies. They've been playing games like this in Los Padres National Forest for many years with a private concessionaire. The agency is constantly testing the limits of the law, using dubious maneuvers such as "categorical exclusion" to cut the public out from oversight of projects (many of which are misleading labelled as "community protection" when they are really about logging.) Finally the USFS does an awful job of trail maintenance. Volunteers do most of the work, and the USFS exploits this free labor. A truly awful agency.
Bingo - Crater Lake in Oregon = same story. They recently fired the company running the show there… This is the plan for all public goods for the entire country… because of the Ukraine money laundering scheme…
Hey Brad! Nice to see you on here commenting. I think the Forest Service is one of those forgotten agencies that has been chronically underfunded and has had to do more with less and now we are where we are today. My dad briefly worked for USFS early in his career but it was a different time and (probably) a very different agency....
Is the Forest Service under funded or wasteful with their budget? In 2023, our local Forest Supervisor closed the forest because of snow. That was an unprecedented power grab and completely unnecessary. We’ve had bigger snowfall seasons in the past, yet other than normal winter closures, the forest remained open. Trail leading to a significant fire lookout tower are closed because of a sink hole that could be filled in an hour. A competent supervisor would have held a public meeting seeking a cooperative attitude to find reasonable and cost effective solutions. Literally many local clubs would volunteer to to help repair trails. It seems our supervisor wants to rathole such projects to validate keeping more employees on the payroll instead of keeping the forest open with the current funding they have. Knowing their wasteful spending, typical of any government office, I’d rather them be efficient rather than pay a very inconvenient forest pass.
Sometimes I like going out on the horribly overgrown trails in the SoCal national forests simply because nobody else is crazy enough to do so, you can go a whole day without seeing another soul. But that’s just making the best out of the bad situation haha
@@ETCubing I just night hike to get away from the noise makers and "bucket list DUDE BRO!!" and "VAN LIFE DUDE BRO" types that really - don't actually CARE about the wilderness experience and the divine creation of such - nope - instead it's exactly what Adam Curtis discussed in his docu film: Century of the Self - "it's all about ME dude brooooooo / Bruh "
One question I have is if your car is broken into will the private company be responsible for your loss? This is absolutely wrong. We can spend billions on foreign wars but somehow a benefit to actual US citizens can’t be funded.
Going on a hike has gotten so convoluted with getting the right passes and permits. Security is a problem in my area with an increasing number of vehicles getting broken into. So on top of researching and acquiring the right passes and permits I also look up crime stats and reports.
Need to complain to Judy Chu. I think the areas around the Angeles area is in her district. She made a big deal about this area and making it more accessible
The Forest Service is doing the same in the Mt. Hood area. Some lakes including Lost Lake Resort, Trillium Lake and Laurence have concessionaires that charge you to park to access the lakes. They refuse to accept the NW Forest Pass or even America the Beautiful Pass as they want to ensure maximum profit. I’m sure the Forest Service could make them accept the passes if they wanted to. Yes you can park a half mile or more away and hike to the lakes or trails. The way it is now these are essentially private lakes.
We’ve been dealing with this for two decades+ in parts of Los Padres National Forest. The concessionaire will ticket for unpaid parking even if their pay booth is unmanned when you enter. It’s super frustrating. Way back when it started there was a backlash and some folks refused to pay, but seems like folks have just given up. In one spot there is a whole section of parking/restrooms that has gone unmaintained post storm damage two years ago along with trails that are in need of significant improvements, so it even more frustrating. I acknowledge that the concessionaire isn’t on the hook for trail maintenance but it begs the question of the efficacy of the privatized management of these public areas.
I used to buy the Annual America the Beautiful pass every year. It was an all-access parking pass for National Forest lands and dispersed camping. Then came the Konsessionnaires, who set up at the gate and can legally refuse to accept the NF pass by contract. That was the last year I bought the pass.
This is insane. Aside from possibly needing to purchase multiple permits depending where you are recreating in the forest, it doesn’t even look like the requirement would be easy to comply with. It’d be ridiculous to get to Vincent Gap early for a hike and then need a permit that’s only available during business hours at an offsite location. I’m very happy to purchase my Interagency Permit once a year. As others have said, an increase in the Adventure Pass fee would make a lot more sense and be less cumbersome and confusing.
Availability of the passes is my only major complaint. In theory it would be better for everything to be administered directly by the USFS (or other government agency) instead of having funds siphoned off to a private party with a profit motive, but as a minimum you should be able to get the passes either online or at a place that's on the route you'd have to take to get there. FWIW, in NH passes are required for many sites along the Kancamagus Highway, but there are many self-serve options at sites along the road.
@Hikingguy Tesla sentry mode seems to video thieves breaking in during broad daylight. Thieves also stealing catalytic converters up there, because they know they won't get caught or prosecuted
This essentially is bullshit. 2 things; having private 3rd party collect fees to get supposed access is a terrible idea. Not from the standpoint that we already pay taxes but where is the accountability for these supposed companies. What happens if I tell someone to shove it, are they going to enforce this with rangers or police. What about their interactions with the public? Being in remote area, demanding fees from someone is a security risk. Second: I was at Pine Mountain this winter and was told by the Sheriffs that I must have the pass. I told her that I had the ATB pass and the CA Cal Vet Pass and that I wasn't using the facilities at the top. I was advised, by a Sheriffs officer that I would be ticketed unless I got one, so thank you for updating me on the facility use, I need to dig in more.
Hey I want to add something about the america the beautiful pass. here near Sacramento we have the el dorado national forest. lots of lakes and camping areas plus of course logging. El Dorado NF has been selling the concession to a company called royal elk. they now have all the parking access to wilderness trails, lakes, campgrounds. And THEY DO NOT accept the America the Beautiful Pass. In fact they sell their own annual pass. It would appear that the El Dorado NF now spends it's funds maintaining roads for Sierra Pacific Industries while outsourcing almost all recreational access to Royal Elk.
Local here and I pay 12 bucks to pay for parking at Folsom...and they only have one part of park open..shouldn't parking be half the price....??? That is gonna be one deep rabbit hole...
I had an annual pass and then was asked to buy another parking pass here in Washington at a trailhead that the pass was supposed to cover in Mt. Baker Recreation area parking lot and they said it's being used so much that they're charging an extra fee for another pass. I declined and hiked to Park Butte Lookout with only the annual pass on my rear view mirror. We'll see what happens this year but I already have to have two passes here in Wa - one for state parks and another for the forest service and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay for daily passes after I already bought two yearly passes. Our state park passes were $30 per year or $10 a day with the option at some to park outside the parking lot without a pass.
Totally agree with you , I’m also miffed about all this third party money making on public property . Yes it’s always about priorities and it seems that those who pay always get shafted
I remember when I hiked Baden-Powell a couple years ago I remember seeing a sign that said something along the lines of “this trailhead will no longer accept adventure passes as of this date” and then it had a mountain high logo in the corner of the sign. I was wondering when people would begin speaking up online about it.
What about people who don’t have the extra money to pay these fees. So because someone is poor they’re not allowed to park and see the beautiful scenery because they are poor. This is getting insane. Pretty soon nobody except the wealthy will be able to do these kind of activities.
There is a catch-22 the National Forests found they had trapped themselves in. Originally, they were intended as managed timber sources, which is why they are part of the Department of Agriculture. But, forests don't grow at a rate that can insure a supply of high-grade timber when being logged intensively. Worse, the national forests were widely employed to experiment in silviculture methods, with generally unremarkable to dubious results. At the same time, during the late '70s and on through the '80s at least, the management levels of the forests were invaded by ignorant MBAs with no idea of what they were dealing with. There was a steady shift of emphasis to "proper business management methods" which failed to note that government in any form is not a business. Privatization has become a major buzz word. Any service provided by the government is targetable as something which "the taxpayers should not be paying for." So, cafeterias in government buildings, janitorial work conducted by forest or park staff, were all labeled as unfair to business. All arguments supported by the dubious notion that private businesses could do the same work more cheapy and to better standards. In combination with the decreasing values of timber harvests, the USFS has increasingly been forced into the "contract the work out" mode, with increased opportunities for corruption.
I just went this past week and even took a picture of the sign because I thought it was ridiculous. I even went to a different place that that one had a parking permit required and I needed a special pass to continue walking the trails.
We have the same issue in the Smokies and at Old Rag Trail on Shenendoah. I have no issue with making reservations in heavy traffic area like Alum Cave, but if you have a National Park pass, this should cover fees. I haven't stopped in the Smokies since they instituted this. I live 30 miles away, but will go to a State Park and pay a fee before I will pay twice for access to any National Park area. By the way, we were in Valley of Fire in NV a couple weeks ago and our Park Pass covered our fee there.
I'm trying to understand this. Do we need both passes now, the Adventure Pass and the Big Pines Pass? Or just the new Big Pines Pass? We are going to Table Mountain next weekend and plan to hike somewhere and have not encountered the new signs yet. What about inspiration point, do we need the new pass there as well?
All the trailheads here require this pass - your Adventure Pass or America the Beautiful pass doesn't work: www.mthigh.com/site/connect/blog/authors/john_mccolly/introducing-the-big-pines-pass
If you buy a Federal Duck stamp, it gives you free access to any wildlife refuge that charges a fee. The money collected goes into a separate account which cannot be pilfered by the government general accounts. Great program.
In theory it would cost less for the government to do as much as possible in house and eliminate the 3rd party profit motive, but there's a very long history of using the private sector to provide many of the amenities and services on federal recreation lands. I'm *guessing* that the USFS believes that the arrangement either reduces their costs or, more likely, increases their (share of the) revenue. Either way, I'm also guessing that there's more money coming out of the public's pockets. It would be useful to have some details about the actual finances.
If you talk privately with folks working for the Forest Service (or the NPS when they have similar programs) they will almost always tell you these programs are a total mess. I doubt any of them provide sufficient revenue to even pay for the costs of administration of the program.
I’m pretty sure that the “access pass” with the wheelchair icon, allows those with disabilities to park for free in any of the above mentioned areas within the Forrest. At least that’s what the NF dude told me at the Lytle Creek Ranger station.
I asked a few visitor center folks about this new 3rd party control and they said no other passes are accepted, not disability pass, not veteran's pass, etc.
Our department of Wildlife in my state of washington did a citizen reach out to determine where the public wanted their tax dollars spent . They set up meetings in conference rooms in every major city in the state. We listened to what they said and were then issued play money to spend in various categories as we left the meeting. They were really pushing the enforcement issue and the pay to use system. Over 80% of the money was put into the preserving habitat box. That really miffed them so they scrapped the whole thing and went for the enforcement thing. Now we have gun toting people enforcing fee collection at all the parking areas. It's created an elite system where those with enough income get to play and the rest of us stay home.
For clarification, the United States Forest Service (USFS) administers the National Forests with the concept of multiple use. Each Forest has a Forest Supervisor and manages Resources, Recreation and Fire. The term "National Forest Service" is a misnomer.
If you ever need to get a response from the USFS or any other federal agency you can file a freedom of information request and they are obligated by law to respond to the request for information. Most states have similar law to provide the public access to information.
I got screwed by a US Forest Service 'policy' that is a shady scam. I went in to buy my year long Discovery Pass on the 30th of the month, and they would not punch it to start on the 1st of the next month. I had do pay for a year long pass but get 11 months out of it because that's their policy. Little twist on top, the 1st of the month the next month was a Saturday, and that was the day I was going to the lake. But the Forest Service has no way for a person to buy that pass on weekends.
I just learned that this is happening in my area too (Stanislaus National Forest). Apparently “American Leisure” is now charging $10 for parking at a very small recreation area, an outdoor attraction, and at a fairly obscure hiking trailhead, all of which have been no-fee forever. They do not honor the all-parks pass even though they are federal facilities. The “excuse” is that the USFS needs to raise money for cleanup because people trash the places. I’ve read that the cleanup isn’t happening, only cash-only fee collection (who carries cash now?!?). It comes across as a scam even though it’s not. 😖
From someone I know who works for the USFS: "The Angeles NF is notoriously underfunded in recreation and facilities. We used to include non-fee sites into campgrounds and force concessionaire to operate them for free. Concession industry threatened to sue and pointed out that we cannot require them to operate any site for free. It's a Service Contract Act Violation. So damned if we do, damned if we don't." IMO, the only way to effectuate change is through your local member of Congress. From what I know, generally, the concessionaire revenue is used to offset maintenance or facility reinvestment. Bottom line is the USFS is critically underfunded, most of their budgets now go to fighting fires. Thank you for sharing this information and for your wonderful channel.
That's the root of the problem. The USFS and NPS (and probably BL, though their lands generally have far less amenities/improvements) have been severely underfunded for a very long time. Every 2 years you get a chance to vote for the representatives you should be contacting about this problem (and others). The underfunding is largely a bipartisan problem, but one party in particular tends to be much more fond of privatization, or just generally limiting/reducing government in general. Choose wisely, and write often.
I think "site" is the key word here. The section code people are referencing might refer to parking *outside* of the leased sites (camping and parking lots). If there exists a dirt road or big enough turnout, I would assume then the section code applies and you can park there for free regardless of these concessionaires.
Hey Chris - I discovered this same issue at the NIRA campground and Upper Manzana trailhead in the Los Padres NF, near Los Olivos. They wanted $10 a day to park and you had to leave your money in an envelope if it was a multi-day backpacking trip! I have an ATB pass, too, and this really irks me to find out that it's not being managed by the USFS but a third-party, for-profit entity! Now, I have to park 1/4 mile away but at least it's free.
Thanks for sharing that, didn't know they were doing this at Los Padres already. Love that area but it's a bad drive through the gooey center of LA traffic for me so I don't get there as much as I'd like.
@@Hikingguy The San Rafael Wilderness is a real gem for backpacking. No permits required and each primitive camp has a fire ring, picnic table and many have a latrine!
If I’m understanding correctly. I have an annual Adventure Pass. I park at Red Box Picnic (as an example) I need to have my Adventure Pass Displayed, in addition purchasing another parking pass, if some 3rd party company is attending to that parking lot? I’m I hearing correctly?
So anywhere that says you need an Adventure Pass, you can use with the Adventure Pass or America the Beautiful (National) pass. If it's a parking lot like Vincent Gap which has been sold to a concessioner, they won't take either pass, you have to pay them separately. It's a mess.
One additional note, if you opt to park outside the concessionaire lots, I believe you still will need the Adventure Pass or America the Beautiful Pass to park on the side of the roads or in unmanaged parking in these areas. When I was there last weekend, people who showed up later in the day were parking across the street from the Vincint Gap trail head parking lot, in dirt area (overflow?), but that area was also the fire road access point. My personal concern with this is I can see situations where people, knowingly or unknowingly, park in areas which block access to fire roads to circumvent the additional parking fees. In my mind this will become both a safety concern and a public access issue, as the USFS may have to impose additional restrictions or crack down on people with tickets to mitigate these issues.
@@majostmAdventure pass is only for improved parking sites-bathrooms, picnic tables etc. not on the side of the road or lots with none of the amenities listed above.
I agree with you Chris, this is not good for us hikers in SoCal or other places in America who got Annual Adventure Pass and still need to pay another fee to park
Yep, happening up in NorCal too, for quite some time. Just Google royal elk park management. Woods Lake, Loon Lake, wright's lake, pyramid creek at twin bridges, are all trailhead parking areas that have become fee stations for this company, and i'm sure there are more. It's pretty crummy that they don't honor the national passes at the trailheads. TBF, a couple of those were forest service fees, but I would rather pay them, but a couple of those had no fees until this company came in. And now it seems the gates to places are locked for longer periods of time.
After a late opening for Woods Lake last summer due to the heavy snow pack, the fee doubled from $5 to $10. The two lots still operated by the forest service at the top of the pass, just up the road, are still $5. There were no additions, or improvements, made to existing facilities. The notice of a doubling of the price came in the form of pieces of paper taped over the existing signs.
@@johnhallford239 good to know about the fee - last season I broke down and bought a Royal Elk season pass. Not sure it was worth it, but with the fee increases, I guess it's quicker to the break even point. The carson pass area used to have their own season pass, but of course it wasn't honored, so they discontinued it. Those areas at the top are Sno parks, wonder if that makes a difference?
@Berry_N I broke down and bought the sno-park season permit so I could winter hike for the first time. Only went twice, so it was definitely pricey. I buy the season-long adventure pass down south after discovering not every vendor on the list actually carries passes and ranger stations being closed. It was worth the hassle. I've never done that up north, though. I saw that Royal Elk manages El Dorado and Plumas. Is it one pass for both or do you have to buy one for each forest? What are your thoughts on their season passes? Is it worth it overall or better to just stick with the day-use fees? It'd be nice not to have to worry about having to fill out the envelope and making sure to always keep $5 bills or enough $1 bills on hand.
@@johnhallford239 I buy the sno-park pass too - I stop frequently at those spots, use their restrooms, walk the dog, and support it since I am able to. The Royal Elk pass only works for the forest you purchase for, so mine only works for ED and not Plumas. I am not sure that I broke even, but with the increase in fees, maybe it would be, and before I would want to stay long enough to make the fee worth it, and now I can make a quick stop, say at the Woods day use area, on the way home, walk the dog, enjoy the lake for a few, and then move on, and not worry about paying. Not happy about it, and I think the cost of the pass was increased this year, but don't quote me on that. LOL, finally old enough to get the free America the Beautiful pass and it really is not as useful as it used to be!
This has been going on for years. Western Slope No Fee has been battling for us all, but just got tired. There's also a local fellow in the Central Coast area. If you put as much into your public lands as you do into spectator sports, and took action, this would stop. So call and write and visit your representatives; also get your friends and family involved; and then network with Western Slope, the Central Coast guy, and anyone else you can. Get the obscene war budget under control and shift the massive amounts of discretionary funds into the public lands. So says Ranger Don
No, unfortunately any of the passes like the America the Beautiful Pass that were sold before will not, now you have to pay the 3rd party on top of having a pass.
I have seen this at one of our trails in Utah. Some company from California (of all places) has done this at China Meadows, which is the trailhead to Red Castle in the Uintah mountains. I've never seen this before, and it's upsetting, especially with it being managed by some out-of-state company from California. I hope this California cancer doesn't spread to other trailheads in Utah.
I'm pretty outraged. Now the "great outdoors" is costing more. What really is annoying is that if you just want to slide in a quick short hike, this cost would add up quickly.
I see that the Grassy Hollow visitor center is temporaily closed (based on Google maps), which is one of the three sites where you can purchase these Big Pines passes during "normal operating hours". Did you go up to Mtn High's North Lodge or Jackson Lake and are they open during the week now or just on weekends? Any info is appreciated. I might make a run up there if I can found out their operating hours/days beforehand.
Thanks for the heads up. My wife and I are starting to go on hikes. Do you know if this is everywhere or just California? We live in the Eastern panhandle of West Virginia. Also, is that a Garmin watch that you are wearing?
Some other people have posted in the comments that this happens by them too. In general, most national lands work with an America the Beautiful pass - hikingguy.com/parkspass - And yes, wearing a Garmin Epix Pro 51mm, which has been great - th-cam.com/video/174Kb-udLpw/w-d-xo.html
@@Hikingguy ok thanks, I appreciate the info. Do you feel it necessary to get the Epix with the sapphire? I’m thinking about buying one and it’s like $100 bucks more for sapphire.
@@anthonyrampino7734 Having used sapphire and non over the years, the non can scratch and the sapphire does not, so worth it for me, it should really just be standard - the watch is also on sale now - amzn.to/4bZnrlu
It's obvious against the law this is why they don't get back to you. They know about your channel this government people hope people will just pay the fee and not to question it.
This is going to cause confusion and make it difficult for people to park at different locations in the Angeles N.F., but also if they're going to park in the San Bernardino N.F. later in the day. Hopefully the annual and Senior passes will continue to be honored at all locations to avoid those card holders from paying twice. This is not well thought out and the public needs to know how much money these private companies are making off the new parking passes.
Nowadays I wouldn't want to leave any card on my dash, seems like an invitation to a break-in. This is a sad situation which reminds me of privately owned for-profit prisons. At the same time, we've got Louis DeJoy screwing with all of USPS, trying to make it profitable when it started out with a mandate to be a public service. Wow. Seems like a legal battle is called for to make them stick to their historic legal mandates to serve the people.
That's a bunch of baloney! You'd think they could've negotiated the janitorial and landscaping services in with the leasing of the land for the ski resort. This sounds like a cash grab. Something stinks.
Thanks for this video. Came across this at Jackson Lake and wondered what the heck was going on. ($10 is insane for that place. ) Does the America the Beautiful Pass or Senior lifetime pass cover this new fee?
No, that's what I was trying to explain (maybe not effectively) - this new pass is the only valid one, you can't use the pass you already bought like the Adventure or America the Beautiful, even though it was sold as a pass offering all access to trailheads.
@@07wrxtr1, actually what you’re seeing here is the opposite of communism: privitization = capitalism. Also, these issues pertain to NATIONAL forests, so the problem is NATIONAL, and has little-to-nothing to do with the way in which California is governed.
The adventure pass is a scam. When I see signs that say you need one I tear them down. I've never paid for one. Public lands are and should remain free for the public to access.
You can still do it, just park along the road if it's a 3rd party fee area and be careful walking. It's crazy that we have to know who to pay and where.
Friend, I'm a looooooooong time dirt biker. Desert...never bothered anyone. The State of California has been hunting us down for a loooooooong time. Now it is your turn (not that I agree with this). In any event, keep up the good work. That law reads, "the forest service shall not charge". Doesn't mean a contractor can't.
Just because it is a "real" thing, does not mean it is not a scam. A national park is payed for through federal taxes. If that does not cover it, then that is an issue for the feds to solve, not local businesses to take advantage and bilk users.
Federal agencies are just an organism that only know how to grow. There is nothing they want to figure out other then getting money to grow bigger and gain more power.
Another questionable scheme, is how on one hand the NPS spends advertising dollars to attract park visitors...and on the other hand, they tell the story of over-crowding. To me, it is obvious...they want an over-crowded condition, so that they can regulate usage by charging fees for camping, trail usage, and applying for permits (and keeping money even for those denied permits).
This land was your land,this land was my land from California to the New York islands from the Redwood forests to the Gulf stream waters...this land was made for you and me.
I really enjoy this channel, subscribe, and recommend it to others for hype-free reviews of gear. Keep up the good work. One bit of constructive criticism with this post is the thumbnail grabbed my attention by using the word ripoff. It made me think there was potentially a scam / deceptive activity where someone was tricking people into paying for something that is actually free (or maybe a third party charging way too much for the same pass you can buy yourself at a fraction of the price). I think you can be both accurate and critical by calling the new parking fees controversial, confusing, potentially overpriced, poorly planned, personally disappointing, annoying, etc. Respectfully, I’d ditch the word ripoff. I know I’m splitting hairs, just my opinion, no ripoff/scam.
If you were sold a pass that granted access to all trailheads, and then were told that actually it's not true, you have to pay again to a 3rd party, I'd say you just got ripped off.
@@Hikingguy That is a fair point. I must have misunderstood the double-billing, and took it as you saying the America The Beautiful pass is one way to get around having to keep up with all the rule changes applying new fees at sites that were previously free. Appreciate the discussion.
The Park Service (honored by USFS also) has discounts on their annual passes for seniors, the disabled, and veterans, so that they can all enjoy our public lands even though they may be on fixed incomes. I see no such discounts offered by this private company.
Malarkey! So they are triple charging now. Federal Taxes, Adventure Pass and now this. Thank you Cris for bringing it everyone's attention, hope your are doing well...
@Hikingguy thank you! Sounds like this could get confusing and irritating. We are planning on doing Baden Powell soon and I guess will need to purchase day parking for Vincent Gap. Thank you for sharing the information because we really wouldn't have known otherwise before getting to the lots 🫤
@@victoria82799 If you get there early you can probably find roadside parking. Not sure of what happens if you arrive before they show up to collect the fee
Thanks for your reporting on this. I have mixed feelings about it. On one hand, it seems somehow not right to have to pay to hike. But on the flip side, seeing how public facilities have deteriorated due to lack of maintenance, something had to be done. We haven't seen trailhead permitting here yet (Stanislaus NF) but there are now fees for other day use areas which had been fee-free til now, and campground fees have risen dramatically (imaging paying $25 for a basic tent site). But at least now there are "campground hosts" at most of them, hopefully helping to maintain the facilities. Anyway, IMO if a hiking parking pass will be required, there should be one pass, at least forest-wide, if not USFS-wide. Having to buy multiple passes to hike in different parts of the same forest doesn't' make sense. And as for using the America the Beautiful (the "all-parks pass"), I definitely wouldn't leave it sitting on the dash. At $80, it seems like a risk of someone smashing a window to grab it. If anything, maybe just writing the pass # on a piece of paper would suffice (thinking out loud here). It seems any legit authority should be able to easily validate the pass number/owner.
I am planning to hike Baden-Powell in the next month or so. So does this mean I pay at the trailhead? Is there someone there to take my money and give me the big pines pass for the day? Do I still need to display my adventure pass?
This is happening in Utah now too, very disappointing. I wish the government prioritized more funding for these services - it seems counterintuitive to charge people to be outdoors when it seems like that is something that should be incentivized.
Another thing is that they need to make the usage of extra fees clear to everybody in a reasonable fashion such as on an official webpage about the use of it or in-person which knowing the helpfulness of the employees shouldn't be a problem, just the webpage front. Since they shouldn't have the ability to spring people with these tacked on fees. I love the idea that if you are not using the full list of amenities then fees cannot be collected. Because quite frankly five out of six of those listed amenities are already common practice at parking locations by default. There is also the free parking aspect, which got me wondering. So if all the other parking spots within a half mile is filled up for the day before the main fee lot does. Then does that means that condition is no longer satisfied and they can no longer collect fees for it?
It would be one thing if they had payment stations, and you paid $5. But havIng to go find someplace that sell the pass is super annoying. I dont think REI/Big 5 are carrying this.
I know I may get my butt kicked here for saying this but I had the idea that it maybe a good idea for the forest service to allow food trucks limited, paid access at the trailheads… of course mandating cleanup
BLM related: it’s literally impossible to enjoy a whole lot of BLM and difficult to find a way into the rest in my area of Northern Colorado, because it’s completely surrounded by private land. Some massive sections of BLM are surrounded by a single land owner. If someone has property adjacent to public land, they should be required to provide access to it.
A few years ago I was charged $5 /5 gal water jug by a concessionaire at a FS campground hand pump in Utah, the charge would have been waived if I paid $20 to eat lunch at a picnic table.
Angeles National Forest never responds on their contact page. Very surprised they are making a secondary pass for our national forests. What's next? A Big Bear use fee? I love the American the Beautiful pass, since we visit so many National Parks as well. However on the Angeles National Park website, they state an Interagency Pass will no longer work at the sites where the Big Pine Pass is needed....
NOOOO! to the sellout! And yes 3rd parties have been doing this since the Misadventure pass was manufactured in 1996. Easy to get around this is by leaving a note on your dashboard that says the following: "I am here for protest only not for recreation. I am allowed to protest and you cannot charge me for protesting these access fees. Do not cite, please..."
If you don’t like it write your Congress members. The Forest Service used to make enough from timber and mineral sales, that they were a black line item in the budget, they returned money to the treasury. Then all of the environmental actions of the seventies and eighties came into effect, and it became impossible to sell timber, and the Forest Service couldn’t sell enough of anything to break even, and became a redline item in the budget. And With the ever increasing budget demands for fire suppression and fighting, the budget left for actual Forest resource management has dwindled to almost nothing. Congress keeps coming up with mandates which must be met, but not finding them.
What's your message to the US Forest Service?
Also, found this great resource that's related: westernslopenofee.org
This is a sickening new turn of policy. Thank you for the report. 🌿
I hope someone is going to sue. This is becoming ridiculous. What is the purpose then of all theses passes if now they can charge fees on top of that?
My message to the forest service: The fact that trail maintenance is done by volunteers, like myself, makes this even worse. It's a parking lot, not a campground. I highly doubt that the third party concessionaires are going to refund your fee when you have to turn around half a mile into your hike because you've already run into multiple downed trees and washed out trails, a fact of life in these parts. We have one paid parking location in our local section of the Los Padres at Piedra Blanca. I've always parked just outside the entrance to the lot and walked in. This past weekend I witnessed overflowing trash cans and filthy pit toilets. I urge the trail crews to refuse to maintain any trails where others are trying to profit off of parking fees, and everyone to pressure your national representatives.
To the forestry service: thank you for finding a method to finally nail, the people that abuse the passes and overuse the park. Thank you for making them pay their fair share finally for the amount of time they use the park.. thank you for removing them from the crowd for the person who wants to come every once in a while and doesn’t wanna have to walk into nature lovers that have a hobby that abused the park.
And finally, I hope the forestry service Institute and mandatory rescue insurance policy for any heart hiker that goes off the path other than a commonly traveled path that most most people use.
@@jeffreylangille1459 Agree 100%
Double dipping, I paid for an adventure pass and now need another pass to hike baden Powell or big horn mine
We already pay taxes which have always paid to fund our US Forest Services, Then we rolled over when they charged us for our campgrounds etc! ....every time they add a fee, its simply another tax!..we the citizens own these forests, lakes, campgrounds and we should not have to pay to use our own land and services!!!! ..ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't pay to camp in our forest....
The cost only impacts high volume users…which the system cannot handle
@@HisDudeness2023 bs. Not that many people have the time, money or desire to camp in the national Forests.
@@maxwellblackwell5045 you answered your question for yourself. The general public doesn’t use the infrastructure so why don’t you pay more? You realize you trapped yourself.
@@HisDudeness2023 not at all. Our tax dollars are already paying for it. So why should I pay more? Their excuse is they need the money to keep up with the use when you just admitted most people don't use it. So explain why I should pay on top of being taxed for it? Everyone who pays taxes pays for it even if they never use the parks. Justify that.
I really don't have a problem making a paying the USFS, but it makes me beyond sick to think of making a payment to a private equity owned company like Mountain High (owned by Invision Capital) to access the great outdoors.
Privatization of our public lands. The company managing the parking lot will go bankrupt, then there will be no services and the Forest Service will shut down the trail head.
It is these companies that started the Adventure Pass program via lobbying Congress to pass the law. It's all a capitalist corporate grab of open land for aholes to get rich. Eff em. Don't ever pay for an adventure pass. they can't enforce it.
@@jefffleishman6566 the government just outsourced it because they don’t wanna have to deal with managing it. The natural question is why do we need the forest service?
Thank you so much for sharing. I've submitted a story tip to each of the local tv news stations (ABC 7, CBS/KCAL, KTLA). I linked your website and TH-cam video. Hopefully, at least one station will pick it up.
Thank you I appreciate that
@lianalehua Quick thinking! Good job!
The USFS is one of the worst federal agencies. They've been playing games like this in Los Padres National Forest for many years with a private concessionaire. The agency is constantly testing the limits of the law, using dubious maneuvers such as "categorical exclusion" to cut the public out from oversight of projects (many of which are misleading labelled as "community protection" when they are really about logging.) Finally the USFS does an awful job of trail maintenance. Volunteers do most of the work, and the USFS exploits this free labor. A truly awful agency.
Bingo - Crater Lake in Oregon = same story. They recently fired the company running the show there…
This is the plan for all public goods for the entire country… because of the Ukraine money laundering scheme…
Hey Brad! Nice to see you on here commenting. I think the Forest Service is one of those forgotten agencies that has been chronically underfunded and has had to do more with less and now we are where we are today. My dad briefly worked for USFS early in his career but it was a different time and (probably) a very different agency....
Is the Forest Service under funded or wasteful with their budget?
In 2023, our local Forest Supervisor closed the forest because of snow. That was an unprecedented power grab and completely unnecessary.
We’ve had bigger snowfall seasons in the past, yet other than normal winter closures, the forest remained open.
Trail leading to a significant fire lookout tower are closed because of a sink hole that could be filled in an hour.
A competent supervisor would have held a public meeting seeking a cooperative attitude to find reasonable and cost effective solutions.
Literally many local clubs would volunteer to to help repair trails.
It seems our supervisor wants to rathole such projects to validate keeping more employees on the payroll instead of keeping the forest open with the current funding they have.
Knowing their wasteful spending, typical of any government office, I’d rather them be efficient rather than pay a very inconvenient forest pass.
Sometimes I like going out on the horribly overgrown trails in the SoCal national forests simply because nobody else is crazy enough to do so, you can go a whole day without seeing another soul. But that’s just making the best out of the bad situation haha
@@ETCubing I just night hike to get away from the noise makers and "bucket list DUDE BRO!!" and "VAN LIFE DUDE BRO" types that really - don't actually CARE about the wilderness experience and the divine creation of such - nope - instead it's exactly what Adam Curtis discussed in his docu film: Century of the Self - "it's all about ME dude brooooooo / Bruh "
One question I have is if your car is broken into will the private company be responsible for your loss? This is absolutely wrong. We can spend billions on foreign wars but somehow a benefit to actual US citizens can’t be funded.
Yea one of the criteria on the feed "Security services" but I think in practice that probably means the parking attendant is there.
@Hikingguy it's probably the parking attendant who is doing the breakins.
Going on a hike has gotten so convoluted with getting the right passes and permits. Security is a problem in my area with an increasing number of vehicles getting broken into. So on top of researching and acquiring the right passes and permits I also look up crime stats and reports.
Need to complain to Judy Chu. I think the areas around the Angeles area is in her district. She made a big deal about this area and making it more accessible
She is the rep for Angeles National Forest and the surrounding areas, youre correct (she is my rep)
You get what you vote for
@@E_Crypto Representative democracy is different from getting what you vote for, that sounds more like direct democracy, to me.
The Forest Service is doing the same in the Mt. Hood area. Some lakes including Lost Lake Resort, Trillium Lake and Laurence have concessionaires that charge you to park to access the lakes. They refuse to accept the NW Forest Pass or even America the Beautiful Pass as they want to ensure maximum profit. I’m sure the Forest Service could make them accept the passes if they wanted to. Yes you can park a half mile or more away and hike to the lakes or trails. The way it is now these are essentially private lakes.
We’ve been dealing with this for two decades+ in parts of Los Padres National Forest. The concessionaire will ticket for unpaid parking even if their pay booth is unmanned when you enter. It’s super frustrating. Way back when it started there was a backlash and some folks refused to pay, but seems like folks have just given up. In one spot there is a whole section of parking/restrooms that has gone unmaintained post storm damage two years ago along with trails that are in need of significant improvements, so it even more frustrating. I acknowledge that the concessionaire isn’t on the hook for trail maintenance but it begs the question of the efficacy of the privatized management of these public areas.
I used to buy the Annual America the Beautiful pass every year. It was an all-access parking pass for National Forest lands and dispersed camping. Then came the Konsessionnaires, who set up at the gate and can legally refuse to accept the NF pass by contract.
That was the last year I bought the pass.
This is insane. Aside from possibly needing to purchase multiple permits depending where you are recreating in the forest, it doesn’t even look like the requirement would be easy to comply with. It’d be ridiculous to get to Vincent Gap early for a hike and then need a permit that’s only available during business hours at an offsite location. I’m very happy to purchase my Interagency Permit once a year. As others have said, an increase in the Adventure Pass fee would make a lot more sense and be less cumbersome and confusing.
Agree 100%
Availability of the passes is my only major complaint. In theory it would be better for everything to be administered directly by the USFS (or other government agency) instead of having funds siphoned off to a private party with a profit motive, but as a minimum you should be able to get the passes either online or at a place that's on the route you'd have to take to get there. FWIW, in NH passes are required for many sites along the Kancamagus Highway, but there are many self-serve options at sites along the road.
@@suedenim9208 Agree
Plus there are no patrols, except for revenue collection. Hundreds of cars are broken into over the summer along that highway
Yea, that's a big part of it too. When the money collectors go home at 5pm, who's watching your car?
@Hikingguy Tesla sentry mode seems to video thieves breaking in during broad daylight. Thieves also stealing catalytic converters up there, because they know they won't get caught or prosecuted
Probably by the same people monitoring the parking are breaking into cars
Thanks!
WHOA Thank you!
This essentially is bullshit. 2 things; having private 3rd party collect fees to get supposed access is a terrible idea. Not from the standpoint that we already pay taxes but where is the accountability for these supposed companies. What happens if I tell someone to shove it, are they going to enforce this with rangers or police. What about their interactions with the public? Being in remote area, demanding fees from someone is a security risk. Second: I was at Pine Mountain this winter and was told by the Sheriffs that I must have the pass. I told her that I had the ATB pass and the CA Cal Vet Pass and that I wasn't using the facilities at the top. I was advised, by a Sheriffs officer that I would be ticketed unless I got one, so thank you for updating me on the facility use, I need to dig in more.
Hey I want to add something about the america the beautiful pass. here near Sacramento we have the el dorado national forest. lots of lakes and camping areas plus of course logging. El Dorado NF has been selling the concession to a company called royal elk. they now have all the parking access to wilderness trails, lakes, campgrounds. And THEY DO NOT accept the America the Beautiful Pass. In fact they sell their own annual pass. It would appear that the El Dorado NF now spends it's funds maintaining roads for Sierra Pacific Industries while outsourcing almost all recreational access to Royal Elk.
Local here and I pay 12 bucks to pay for parking at Folsom...and they only have one part of park open..shouldn't parking be half the price....???
That is gonna be one deep rabbit hole...
I had an annual pass and then was asked to buy another parking pass here in Washington at a trailhead that the pass was supposed to cover in Mt. Baker Recreation area parking lot and they said it's being used so much that they're charging an extra fee for another pass. I declined and hiked to Park Butte Lookout with only the annual pass on my rear view mirror. We'll see what happens this year but I already have to have two passes here in Wa - one for state parks and another for the forest service and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay for daily passes after I already bought two yearly passes. Our state park passes were $30 per year or $10 a day with the option at some to park outside the parking lot without a pass.
Totally agree with you , I’m also miffed about all this third party money making on public property . Yes it’s always about priorities and it seems that those who pay always get shafted
Yeah this is ridiculous. Like we don’t pay enough taxes already.
Can’t fund the forestry service or national parks properly but can send billions to other countries around the world. Our priorities are messed up.
Ukraine and Israel is much more important than trees
You don't think there's a profit motive when you "send billions to other countries around the world" ?
@@LoremIpsum1970 Of course there is. It doesn't negate @JasonWicklund 's point. The elite get the money and you get taxed more. Now for trails!
The same people that vote against sending money to other countries are the same the vote against to funding the National Parks and the Forest service
@@derbywinner6316
You’ve got no proof of that.
Thanks for the update. I recently hiked Baden-Powell about a month ago and didn't see any signage about an extra fee. Bummer.
I heard last weekend was the first time they charged there.
I remember when I hiked Baden-Powell a couple years ago I remember seeing a sign that said something along the lines of “this trailhead will no longer accept adventure passes as of this date” and then it had a mountain high logo in the corner of the sign. I was wondering when people would begin speaking up online about it.
Even worse is at great Smokey mountains where the park pass isn't valid and you are required to buy another pass to park.
Why shouldn’t they just accept entrance fee like other parks or at max, the timed entry system
Trailhead parking pass. Annoying. Rattle the Congressional members
Thank you for letting us know.
Thank you for shedding light on this.
What about people who don’t have the extra money to pay these fees. So because someone is poor they’re not allowed to park and see the beautiful scenery because they are poor. This is getting insane. Pretty soon nobody except the wealthy will be able to do these kind of activities.
That the master plan
That's the master plan
There is a catch-22 the National Forests found they had trapped themselves in. Originally, they were intended as managed timber sources, which is why they are part of the Department of Agriculture. But, forests don't grow at a rate that can insure a supply of high-grade timber when being logged intensively. Worse, the national forests were widely employed to experiment in silviculture methods, with generally unremarkable to dubious results. At the same time, during the late '70s and on through the '80s at least, the management levels of the forests were invaded by ignorant MBAs with no idea of what they were dealing with. There was a steady shift of emphasis to "proper business management methods" which failed to note that government in any form is not a business. Privatization has become a major buzz word. Any service provided by the government is targetable as something which "the taxpayers should not be paying for." So, cafeterias in government buildings, janitorial work conducted by forest or park staff, were all labeled as unfair to business. All arguments supported by the dubious notion that private businesses could do the same work more cheapy and to better standards. In combination with the decreasing values of timber harvests, the USFS has increasingly been forced into the "contract the work out" mode, with increased opportunities for corruption.
In Northern Ca, they are charging for campgrounds that were free 4 years ago?
I just went this past week and even took a picture of the sign because I thought it was ridiculous. I even went to a different place that that one had a parking permit required and I needed a special pass to continue walking the trails.
We have the same issue in the Smokies and at Old Rag Trail on Shenendoah. I have no issue with making reservations in heavy traffic area like Alum Cave, but if you have a National Park pass, this should cover fees. I haven't stopped in the Smokies since they instituted this. I live 30 miles away, but will go to a State Park and pay a fee before I will pay twice for access to any National Park area. By the way, we were in Valley of Fire in NV a couple weeks ago and our Park Pass covered our fee there.
Horrible. Going to cause lots of people to park in sketchy areas to avoid this ludicrous fee.
I'm trying to understand this. Do we need both passes now, the Adventure Pass and the Big Pines Pass? Or just the new Big Pines Pass? We are going to Table Mountain next weekend and plan to hike somewhere and have not encountered the new signs yet. What about inspiration point, do we need the new pass there as well?
All the trailheads here require this pass - your Adventure Pass or America the Beautiful pass doesn't work: www.mthigh.com/site/connect/blog/authors/john_mccolly/introducing-the-big-pines-pass
Thanks for the heads-up.
If you buy a Federal Duck stamp, it gives you free access to any wildlife refuge that charges a fee. The money collected goes into a separate account which cannot be pilfered by the government general accounts. Great program.
In theory it would cost less for the government to do as much as possible in house and eliminate the 3rd party profit motive, but there's a very long history of using the private sector to provide many of the amenities and services on federal recreation lands. I'm *guessing* that the USFS believes that the arrangement either reduces their costs or, more likely, increases their (share of the) revenue. Either way, I'm also guessing that there's more money coming out of the public's pockets. It would be useful to have some details about the actual finances.
If you talk privately with folks working for the Forest Service (or the NPS when they have similar programs) they will almost always tell you these programs are a total mess. I doubt any of them provide sufficient revenue to even pay for the costs of administration of the program.
I’m pretty sure that the “access pass” with the wheelchair icon, allows those with disabilities to park for free in any of the above mentioned areas within the Forrest. At least that’s what the NF dude told me at the Lytle Creek Ranger station.
I asked a few visitor center folks about this new 3rd party control and they said no other passes are accepted, not disability pass, not veteran's pass, etc.
Our department of Wildlife in my state of washington did a citizen reach out to determine where the public wanted their tax dollars spent . They set up meetings in conference rooms in every major city in the state. We listened to what they said and were then issued play money to spend in various categories as we left the meeting. They were really pushing the enforcement issue and the pay to use system. Over 80% of the money was put into the preserving habitat box. That really miffed them so they scrapped the whole thing and went for the enforcement thing. Now we have gun toting people enforcing fee collection at all the parking areas. It's created an elite system where those with enough income get to play and the rest of us stay home.
For clarification, the United States Forest Service (USFS) administers the National Forests with the concept of multiple use. Each Forest has a Forest Supervisor and manages Resources, Recreation and Fire. The term "National Forest Service" is a misnomer.
If you ever need to get a response from the USFS or any other federal agency you can file a freedom of information request and they are obligated by law to respond to the request for information. Most states have similar law to provide the public access to information.
I got screwed by a US Forest Service 'policy' that is a shady scam. I went in to buy my year long Discovery Pass on the 30th of the month, and they would not punch it to start on the 1st of the next month. I had do pay for a year long pass but get 11 months out of it because that's their policy. Little twist on top, the 1st of the month the next month was a Saturday, and that was the day I was going to the lake. But the Forest Service has no way for a person to buy that pass on weekends.
I just learned that this is happening in my area too (Stanislaus National Forest). Apparently “American Leisure” is now charging $10 for parking at a very small recreation area, an outdoor attraction, and at a fairly obscure hiking trailhead, all of which have been no-fee forever. They do not honor the all-parks pass even though they are federal facilities. The “excuse” is that the USFS needs to raise money for cleanup because people trash the places. I’ve read that the cleanup isn’t happening, only cash-only fee collection (who carries cash now?!?). It comes across as a scam even though it’s not. 😖
From someone I know who works for the USFS: "The Angeles NF is notoriously underfunded in recreation and facilities. We used to include non-fee sites into campgrounds and force concessionaire to operate them for free. Concession industry threatened to sue and pointed out that we cannot require them to operate any site for free. It's a Service Contract Act Violation. So damned if we do, damned if we don't."
IMO, the only way to effectuate change is through your local member of Congress. From what I know, generally, the concessionaire revenue is used to offset maintenance or facility reinvestment. Bottom line is the USFS is critically underfunded, most of their budgets now go to fighting fires. Thank you for sharing this information and for your wonderful channel.
Thank you so much for sharing that, I appreciate it.
That's the root of the problem. The USFS and NPS (and probably BL, though their lands generally have far less amenities/improvements) have been severely underfunded for a very long time. Every 2 years you get a chance to vote for the representatives you should be contacting about this problem (and others). The underfunding is largely a bipartisan problem, but one party in particular tends to be much more fond of privatization, or just generally limiting/reducing government in general. Choose wisely, and write often.
I think "site" is the key word here. The section code people are referencing might refer to parking *outside* of the leased sites (camping and parking lots). If there exists a dirt road or big enough turnout, I would assume then the section code applies and you can park there for free regardless of these concessionaires.
Hey Chris - I discovered this same issue at the NIRA campground and Upper Manzana trailhead in the Los Padres NF, near Los Olivos. They wanted $10 a day to park and you had to leave your money in an envelope if it was a multi-day backpacking trip! I have an ATB pass, too, and this really irks me to find out that it's not being managed by the USFS but a third-party, for-profit entity! Now, I have to park 1/4 mile away but at least it's free.
Thanks for sharing that, didn't know they were doing this at Los Padres already. Love that area but it's a bad drive through the gooey center of LA traffic for me so I don't get there as much as I'd like.
@@Hikingguy The San Rafael Wilderness is a real gem for backpacking. No permits required and each primitive camp has a fire ring, picnic table and many have a latrine!
@@JeremyOdom I was lucky enough to visit in the past but it's been a while. I've got to get back up there at some point, thanks for the suggestion!
So they aren’t public lands anymore. It’s like extortion.
If I’m understanding correctly.
I have an annual Adventure Pass.
I park at Red Box Picnic (as an example)
I need to have my Adventure Pass Displayed,
in addition purchasing another parking pass, if some 3rd party company is attending to that parking lot?
I’m I hearing correctly?
So anywhere that says you need an Adventure Pass, you can use with the Adventure Pass or America the Beautiful (National) pass. If it's a parking lot like Vincent Gap which has been sold to a concessioner, they won't take either pass, you have to pay them separately. It's a mess.
@@Hikingguy Got it! Infuriating to say the least.
Thank You for all you do!
@@guzz95 Thank you!
One additional note, if you opt to park outside the concessionaire lots, I believe you still will need the Adventure Pass or America the Beautiful Pass to park on the side of the roads or in unmanaged parking in these areas.
When I was there last weekend, people who showed up later in the day were parking across the street from the Vincint Gap trail head parking lot, in dirt area (overflow?), but that area was also the fire road access point. My personal concern with this is I can see situations where people, knowingly or unknowingly, park in areas which block access to fire roads to circumvent the additional parking fees. In my mind this will become both a safety concern and a public access issue, as the USFS may have to impose additional restrictions or crack down on people with tickets to mitigate these issues.
@@majostmAdventure pass is only for improved parking sites-bathrooms, picnic tables etc. not on the side of the road or lots with none of the amenities listed above.
I agree with you Chris, this is not good for us hikers in SoCal or other places in America who got Annual Adventure Pass and still need to pay another fee to park
Yep, happening up in NorCal too, for quite some time. Just Google royal elk park management. Woods Lake, Loon Lake, wright's lake, pyramid creek at twin bridges, are all trailhead parking areas that have become fee stations for this company, and i'm sure there are more. It's pretty crummy that they don't honor the national passes at the trailheads. TBF, a couple of those were forest service fees, but I would rather pay them, but a couple of those had no fees until this company came in. And now it seems the gates to places are locked for longer periods of time.
After a late opening for Woods Lake last summer due to the heavy snow pack, the fee doubled from $5 to $10. The two lots still operated by the forest service at the top of the pass, just up the road, are still $5. There were no additions, or improvements, made to existing facilities. The notice of a doubling of the price came in the form of pieces of paper taped over the existing signs.
@@johnhallford239 good to know about the fee - last season I broke down and bought a Royal Elk season pass. Not sure it was worth it, but with the fee increases, I guess it's quicker to the break even point. The carson pass area used to have their own season pass, but of course it wasn't honored, so they discontinued it. Those areas at the top are Sno parks, wonder if that makes a difference?
@Berry_N I broke down and bought the sno-park season permit so I could winter hike for the first time. Only went twice, so it was definitely pricey. I buy the season-long adventure pass down south after discovering not every vendor on the list actually carries passes and ranger stations being closed. It was worth the hassle. I've never done that up north, though. I saw that Royal Elk manages El Dorado and Plumas. Is it one pass for both or do you have to buy one for each forest? What are your thoughts on their season passes? Is it worth it overall or better to just stick with the day-use fees? It'd be nice not to have to worry about having to fill out the envelope and making sure to always keep $5 bills or enough $1 bills on hand.
@@johnhallford239 I buy the sno-park pass too - I stop frequently at those spots, use their restrooms, walk the dog, and support it since I am able to. The Royal Elk pass only works for the forest you purchase for, so mine only works for ED and not Plumas. I am not sure that I broke even, but with the increase in fees, maybe it would be, and before I would want to stay long enough to make the fee worth it, and now I can make a quick stop, say at the Woods day use area, on the way home, walk the dog, enjoy the lake for a few, and then move on, and not worry about paying. Not happy about it, and I think the cost of the pass was increased this year, but don't quote me on that. LOL, finally old enough to get the free America the Beautiful pass and it really is not as useful as it used to be!
This has been going on for years. Western Slope No Fee has been battling for us all, but just got tired. There's also a local fellow in the Central Coast area. If you put as much into your public lands as you do into spectator sports, and took action, this would stop. So call and write and visit your representatives; also get your friends and family involved; and then network with Western Slope, the Central Coast guy, and anyone else you can. Get the obscene war budget under control and shift the massive amounts of discretionary funds into the public lands. So says Ranger Don
Chris, this is crazy. So many passes to figure out for each trail. So are you saying the America the Beautiful pass will cover it?
No, unfortunately any of the passes like the America the Beautiful Pass that were sold before will not, now you have to pay the 3rd party on top of having a pass.
I have seen this at one of our trails in Utah. Some company from California (of all places) has done this at China Meadows, which is the trailhead to Red Castle in the Uintah mountains. I've never seen this before, and it's upsetting, especially with it being managed by some out-of-state company from California. I hope this California cancer doesn't spread to other trailheads in Utah.
I'm pretty outraged. Now the "great outdoors" is costing more. What really is annoying is that if you just want to slide in a quick short hike, this cost would add up quickly.
I see that the Grassy Hollow visitor center is temporaily closed (based on Google maps), which is one of the three sites where you can purchase these Big Pines passes during "normal operating hours".
Did you go up to Mtn High's North Lodge or Jackson Lake and are they open during the week now or just on weekends?
Any info is appreciated. I might make a run up there if I can found out their operating hours/days beforehand.
All I heard was there was a person set up at Vincent Gap with a table collecting fees.
Tonto National Forest here near Phoenix has it where even with America the Beautiful pass, you still need their recreation pass.
Thanks for the heads up. My wife and I are starting to go on hikes. Do you know if this is everywhere or just California? We live in the Eastern panhandle of West Virginia. Also, is that a Garmin watch that you are wearing?
Some other people have posted in the comments that this happens by them too. In general, most national lands work with an America the Beautiful pass - hikingguy.com/parkspass - And yes, wearing a Garmin Epix Pro 51mm, which has been great - th-cam.com/video/174Kb-udLpw/w-d-xo.html
@@Hikingguy ok thanks, I appreciate the info. Do you feel it necessary to get the Epix with the sapphire? I’m thinking about buying one and it’s like $100 bucks more for sapphire.
@@anthonyrampino7734 Having used sapphire and non over the years, the non can scratch and the sapphire does not, so worth it for me, it should really just be standard - the watch is also on sale now - amzn.to/4bZnrlu
@@Hikingguy thanks again, that’s what I was thinking too.
It's obvious against the law this is why they don't get back to you. They know about your channel this government people hope people will just pay the fee and not to question it.
This is going to cause confusion and make it difficult for people to park at different locations in the Angeles N.F., but also if they're going to park in the San Bernardino N.F. later in the day. Hopefully the annual and Senior passes will continue to be honored at all locations to avoid those card holders from paying twice. This is not well thought out and the public needs to know how much money these private companies are making off the new parking passes.
Nowadays I wouldn't want to leave any card on my dash, seems like an invitation to a break-in. This is a sad situation which reminds me of privately owned for-profit prisons. At the same time, we've got Louis DeJoy screwing with all of USPS, trying to make it profitable when it started out with a mandate to be a public service. Wow. Seems like a legal battle is called for to make them stick to their historic legal mandates to serve the people.
That's a bunch of baloney! You'd think they could've negotiated the janitorial and landscaping services in with the leasing of the land for the ski resort. This sounds like a cash grab. Something stinks.
Thank you Hiking Guy.
Interesting situation. At a minimum, it should be uniform so I don’t need a rolodex of passes depending on where I go.
Which castle do we storm? I got my torch ready.😂
This is bogus!!!
I'm ready too!
@@HuckOutdoors 🤣🔥
The man in the high castle...did you vote for him?
Thank you for the information.
Thanks for this video. Came across this at Jackson Lake and wondered what the heck was going on. ($10 is insane for that place. ) Does the America the Beautiful Pass or Senior lifetime pass cover this new fee?
No, that's what I was trying to explain (maybe not effectively) - this new pass is the only valid one, you can't use the pass you already bought like the Adventure or America the Beautiful, even though it was sold as a pass offering all access to trailheads.
Just had this issue yesterday at Cleveland national forest. No annual parking pass applies here. $5/ day use permit 😮
Which trailhead? I'd like to look into it.
@@Hikingguy noble canyon and bear valley trailheads in Pine Valley, CA
Communism has consequences … that’s something that Californias population doesn’t seem to be able and/or willing to connect the dots
@@07wrxtr1, actually what you’re seeing here is the opposite of communism: privitization = capitalism. Also, these issues pertain to NATIONAL forests, so the problem is NATIONAL, and has little-to-nothing to do with the way in which California is governed.
The adventure pass is a scam. When I see signs that say you need one I tear them down. I've never paid for one.
Public lands are and should remain free for the public to access.
This is insane! And I was about to buy my very first Adventure pass next week and now I'm going to have to pay an additional fee for another pass??
You can still do it, just park along the road if it's a 3rd party fee area and be careful walking. It's crazy that we have to know who to pay and where.
Thank you for this post.
No response? Shocking. 😶
Friend, I'm a looooooooong time dirt biker. Desert...never bothered anyone. The State of California has been hunting us down for a loooooooong time. Now it is your turn (not that I agree with this). In any event, keep up the good work. That law reads, "the forest service shall not charge". Doesn't mean a contractor can't.
Same thing at trillium lake in Oregon
Just because it is a "real" thing, does not mean it is not a scam. A national park is payed for through federal taxes. If that does not cover it, then that is an issue for the feds to solve, not local businesses to take advantage and bilk users.
Federal agencies are just an organism that only know how to grow. There is nothing they want to figure out other then getting money to grow bigger and gain more power.
this is why i simply do not visit any parks. theres a fee at every point and im not payin. do you think Teddy Roosevelt would approve?
Another questionable scheme, is how on one hand the NPS spends advertising dollars to attract park visitors...and on the other hand, they tell the story of over-crowding. To me, it is obvious...they want an over-crowded condition, so that they can regulate usage by charging fees for camping, trail usage, and applying for permits (and keeping money even for those denied permits).
This land was your land,this land was my land from California to the New York islands from the Redwood forests to the Gulf stream waters...this land was made for you and me.
In the Pacific NW, national forests are tree farms first. Other uses are distant priorities. It’s always been that way.
I really enjoy this channel, subscribe, and recommend it to others for hype-free reviews of gear. Keep up the good work. One bit of constructive criticism with this post is the thumbnail grabbed my attention by using the word ripoff. It made me think there was potentially a scam / deceptive activity where someone was tricking people into paying for something that is actually free (or maybe a third party charging way too much for the same pass you can buy yourself at a fraction of the price). I think you can be both accurate and critical by calling the new parking fees controversial, confusing, potentially overpriced, poorly planned, personally disappointing, annoying, etc. Respectfully, I’d ditch the word ripoff. I know I’m splitting hairs, just my opinion, no ripoff/scam.
If you were sold a pass that granted access to all trailheads, and then were told that actually it's not true, you have to pay again to a 3rd party, I'd say you just got ripped off.
@@Hikingguy That is a fair point. I must have misunderstood the double-billing, and took it as you saying the America The Beautiful pass is one way to get around having to keep up with all the rule changes applying new fees at sites that were previously free. Appreciate the discussion.
The Park Service (honored by USFS also) has discounts on their annual passes for seniors, the disabled, and veterans, so that they can all enjoy our public lands even though they may be on fixed incomes. I see no such discounts offered by this private company.
Malarkey! So they are triple charging now. Federal Taxes, Adventure Pass and now this. Thank you Cris for bringing it everyone's attention, hope your are doing well...
This is in addition to or instead of an Adventure Pass?
addition to
@Hikingguy thank you! Sounds like this could get confusing and irritating. We are planning on doing Baden Powell soon and I guess will need to purchase day parking for Vincent Gap. Thank you for sharing the information because we really wouldn't have known otherwise before getting to the lots 🫤
@@victoria82799 If you get there early you can probably find roadside parking. Not sure of what happens if you arrive before they show up to collect the fee
Thanks for your reporting on this. I have mixed feelings about it. On one hand, it seems somehow not right to have to pay to hike. But on the flip side, seeing how public facilities have deteriorated due to lack of maintenance, something had to be done. We haven't seen trailhead permitting here yet (Stanislaus NF) but there are now fees for other day use areas which had been fee-free til now, and campground fees have risen dramatically (imaging paying $25 for a basic tent site). But at least now there are "campground hosts" at most of them, hopefully helping to maintain the facilities. Anyway, IMO if a hiking parking pass will be required, there should be one pass, at least forest-wide, if not USFS-wide. Having to buy multiple passes to hike in different parts of the same forest doesn't' make sense.
And as for using the America the Beautiful (the "all-parks pass"), I definitely wouldn't leave it sitting on the dash. At $80, it seems like a risk of someone smashing a window to grab it. If anything, maybe just writing the pass # on a piece of paper would suffice (thinking out loud here). It seems any legit authority should be able to easily validate the pass number/owner.
So you mentioned you had the America the beautiful pass. If you have that pass, are you still required for the additional fee?
Yup
No passes work there
@@Hikingguy Thank you.
I am planning to hike Baden-Powell in the next month or so. So does this mean I pay at the trailhead? Is there someone there to take my money and give me the big pines pass for the day? Do I still need to display my adventure pass?
Thanks Cris. You are justified in being worked up and steamed about this. It is indeed a terrible look for the NFS.
This is happening in Utah now too, very disappointing. I wish the government prioritized more funding for these services - it seems counterintuitive to charge people to be outdoors when it seems like that is something that should be incentivized.
Another thing is that they need to make the usage of extra fees clear to everybody in a reasonable fashion such as on an official webpage about the use of it or in-person which knowing the helpfulness of the employees shouldn't be a problem, just the webpage front. Since they shouldn't have the ability to spring people with these tacked on fees.
I love the idea that if you are not using the full list of amenities then fees cannot be collected. Because quite frankly five out of six of those listed amenities are already common practice at parking locations by default.
There is also the free parking aspect, which got me wondering. So if all the other parking spots within a half mile is filled up for the day before the main fee lot does. Then does that means that condition is no longer satisfied and they can no longer collect fees for it?
Wait a minute!!! What about annual or lifetime passes issued by the National Park Service, USFS, COE etc.
They won't work at the lots controlled by 3rd party concessioners
You park, you pay. Similar to municipal parking. The principal of payment for service seems more fair than general taxes to pay for services.
It would be one thing if they had payment stations, and you paid $5. But havIng to go find someplace that sell the pass is super annoying. I dont think REI/Big 5 are carrying this.
Yea I called REI and they are not.
I know I may get my butt kicked here for saying this but I had the idea that it maybe a good idea for the forest service to allow food trucks limited, paid access at the trailheads… of course mandating cleanup
But then it will smell like food instead of the outdoors.
BLM related: it’s literally impossible to enjoy a whole lot of BLM and difficult to find a way into the rest in my area of Northern Colorado, because it’s completely surrounded by private land. Some massive sections of BLM are surrounded by a single land owner.
If someone has property adjacent to public land, they should be required to provide access to it.
A few years ago I was charged $5 /5 gal water jug by a concessionaire at a FS campground hand pump in Utah, the charge would have been waived if I paid $20 to eat lunch at a picnic table.
$20 to use a public picnic table?!?!!!
Thank you for sharing.
Angeles National Forest never responds on their contact page. Very surprised they are making a secondary pass for our national forests. What's next? A Big Bear use fee?
I love the American the Beautiful pass, since we visit so many National Parks as well. However on the Angeles National Park website, they state an Interagency Pass will no longer work at the sites where the Big Pine Pass is needed....
When do we get to start charging the fees?
NOOOO! to the sellout! And yes 3rd parties have been doing this since the Misadventure pass was manufactured in 1996.
Easy to get around this is by leaving a note on your dashboard that says the following:
"I am here for protest only not for recreation. I am allowed to protest and you cannot charge me for protesting these access fees. Do not cite, please..."
They'll have people using the bushes. Very dangerous to park at the side of the road and walk along there. Someone will get killed!
Yea, it's crazy to expect people to walk along the side of CA-2 in most places.
If the trailheads are maintained I’d say the extra parking fee is fine. Added benefit is people might be more inclined to carpool.
If you don’t like it write your Congress members. The Forest Service used to make enough from timber and mineral sales, that they were a black line item in the budget, they returned money to the treasury. Then all of the environmental actions of the seventies and eighties came into effect, and it became impossible to sell timber, and the Forest Service couldn’t sell enough of anything to break even, and became a redline item in the budget. And With the ever increasing budget demands for fire suppression and fighting, the budget left for actual Forest resource management has dwindled to almost nothing. Congress keeps coming up with mandates which must be met, but not finding them.