Grab an Anti-Sag Kit here 👉🏻 bit.ly/anti-sagkit This is incredibly simple, but TONS of people get this wrong. Mess this one thing up and your gate brace is almost completely non-functional.
Vertical strength of brace is superior in an angle below 45 degrees. No stress on the fasteners. Because the fasteners are not needed. But over 45 degrees, the arm is distended, the brace wants to rock down, it's up to the fasteners to prevent a single degree of sag. At this point shear strength of wood and fasteners come into play. Stuff starts to move.
I would add this was an excellent video in general. No obnoxious background music, no (long) boring intro with fireworks, no silly flashing images in background, the humor was subtle and entertaining. I urge all video creators to strive for this. (P.S. I don't even have a gate.)
@@terry_willis You must be an older person, Nothing wrong with that. But, there is nothing wrong with adding a little, music, flare, and comedy to content in this day and age. I enjoy it as long as it's not a cut every 2 seconds, lol.
I’m currently working on a timber framed bridge design project for my school. It’s more of a conceptual drafting project than anything else because we’re not focused on the physics side of things just the hand drafting aspect, but this explains so much about historic wooden bridge designs it’s hilarious to think I had this element explained so well in a recommended video about fence integrity.
To be clear. This only applies to wood gates. Steel gates work vastly better under tension. As well as aluminum. I have built 60 or 70 as wide as 26 foot free span.
@hrmIwonder Think about a bicycle spoke. The wood method works because wood sucks at holding a fastener under tension for long term. Steel on the other hand does not care. When a fat kid swings on a steel gate. If it's compression bracing the brace needs to be strong enough to hold a compressed load of a fat kid a 20 feet. It takes a 2.5 to 3 inch sch40 pipe minimum. If under tention. A 1 inch pipe or even 1/4x1 flat stock is way more than strong enough to hold thay fat kid at 20 feet. I have built a LOT of steel and aluminum gates.
@tireballastserviceofflorid7771 thanks! That makes sense. You could suspend a 10lbs weight from a wire but it wouldn't support the weight under compression. I hadn't looked at it that way. Thanks again!
And that’s why almost all of our modern bridges are suspension bridges (under tension) vs compression arch bridges. Loved the fat kid example. Works pretty good in my imagination center of the brain.
Best ad for a 2 screws and a wire I've ever seen. Joking aside, I really appreciated how well this was presented. All ads should genuinely teach something like this one did. I'm not sure why there is concern about going greater than 45 degrees, sure it is not 'as strong' but it is more than strong enough, and still the right direction. Another trick to point out, you can build the frame for a gate, wrap a single wire all the way around it and tighten just that, and then throw your diagonal compression bar in. FAST, SIMPLE, CHEAP and will last forever.
There must be a lot of people out there bracing gates. Over a million views in 6 days? Thanks, guys, we'll be seeing straight and well-braced gates everywhere now :) You've got to love engineering, you picked up a new subscriber. :)
There is no magic about 45deg. Sure It is a good rule of thumb; the shallower the angle the more weight is on compression and the more it pushes the end out proportionally to the amount it supports then end in the upward angle, but 46 deg is not all of a sudden going to break or last half as long. Same applies to tension cables. If you had a gate 3x the height a tension cable and its mounting will need to be much stronger than for a square. But a 5' wide gate that is 4' high would not really be a problem, either for compression or tension. Other than the critical 45deg, I think the video was excellent and good for someone trying to keep in their dogs.
I don't have a gate. Great video. Good personal dynamics, well structured video, no useless info, explanations of why the physics matter, and solutions for different scenarios. 10/10
@LTVoyager is right: nothing magical about 45 degrees. It’s just that the tension or compression gets more extreme as the diagonal element gets closer to horizontal. Another point: the top horizontal member is in tension either way. Its force is carried by fasteners either way. So while having the diagonal member in compression is better, the other forces need to be considered as well. Great video!
It also depends on the direction of the wood used to build the gate. With horizontal installed ‘planks’, your pressure-solution works great. With vertical installed planks, the pressure solution will slowly push the vertical planks go wider and wider until the gate wont fit anymore
Nothing magical about 45°. Moving the brace from 55° from vertical to 45° adds extra leverage bearing on the brace erasing any advantage. This calculation needs to be done with vectors, not intuition.
It's a magical number in the way computer programmers use the term: It's unexplained, it's not necessary to understand how it's found, but if you change the value things go wrong. PI = 3.1415926 is an example. Here it's more "rule of thumb" than real magical number but OK.
It’s nice to see you explain the right way to build fences!! Not the usual on TH-cam!! I WORKED for NW fence in Spokane Valley /Idaho fence in Post Falls. Not an easy job NWF was 6days a week 10 hours a day 30 years ago work for the railroad these days…run my train past 5 fences I built that are still standing and makes me appreciate my engineer job more every time I pass them! Keep up the good work!
I admit I didn't watch the whole video, but for my wooden gates, I installed two diagonal threaded rods with a turn buckle in the middle, and eye hooks at each end, so I can adjust the gate at any time it gets out of alignment at the latch. It works great and won't wear out. Rust protection is required, but since you rarely need to adjust it after it is set up correctly, I just painted the threaded rods and turn buckle to match the wooden gate. You can always touch up the paint if it gets scuffed off during any of your adjustments. For this application, the brace is installed in tension, like the position of the wood brace when he first tried it.
Here because of the algorithm. I have no intention of needing to fix a gate or anything to do with fences or gates, but these guys are awesome, and I love the video. The algorithm works in mysterious ways.
Wow, it's so nice to learn how to solve an issue i didn't know existed...pretty nice video and i love how you showed the issue that you were trying to solve and how to solve it!
Such a great video showing the importance of understanding compression and tension. I wish the people who built the fence on my house had understood these basic fundamentals of structural engineering. Pretty sure they did my very large gate doors totally backwards haha… now to go fix them!
build a steel gate the opposite to a wood one? thats nonsense, if you makf the steel gate out of steel with the same profile as the wood used, then the steel gate will react to forces applied to it, in exactlly the same manner as the wood one, the only difference being the steel gate will withstand load forces many times higher than the wood one, if you want to see where the loads are appied to a gate, just have a look at a shelf bracket, the direction of loads on a shelf bracket are exactly the same as those acting on a gate, theres a reason why shelf brackets are never fitted upside down…and they are normally made from steel,
@robertmagnusjamieson1759 that would assume you used the same coss section of steel as wood, but typically a steel gate would be made of slimmer sections than a timber one due to steel being harder and denser than wood. Slim sections are more susceptible to buckling than thick sections of equal tensile strength, which is why we use them in tension not compression. You can pull a truck with a wire hawser, but you can't push it.
Your example with your arm is incorrect. If that gate on the left were just as long but taller, the brace would work fine. The reason the brace starts to fail at less than 45 degrees is that it approaches parallel to the horizontal members of the gate and starts to lose the advantage of a triangle. As the angel of the brace gets shallower, a given amount of compression of the brace translates into a larger vertical movement of the gate.
Probably yes but it depends. A brace pointing downwards towards the wheel will direct more of the load to the wheel. Usually you want that since it means less on the rest of the structure. But then the question is, how much load can the wheel handle?
Mostly good info, but your two diagonal design for the long gate has that center post in tension so it relies on the fasteners to connect it to the frame or the braces, but you made it seem like it'd work also without relying on fasteners.
yes and the brace in tension is also trying to break the fasteners holding the outside vertical board in place and the one holding the bottom horizontial board by the hinge the premise of this video is wrong
Built gates for 35 years. Ditch the cedar or redwood as those wood species are too soft to serve as structural support. For a personnel gate weld 1" square aluminum tubing into a rectangle with one cross brace. Weld on a piece of flat plate to secure a latch. Then attach your fence boards directly to the aluminum with short deck screws. There, the gate will never rot, twist or sag. For driveway gates use 1 1/2 or 2" tubing and a little trigonometry for additional bracing. In and around Pasadena CA you can find over 200 of these gates which I built.
Do you happen to have any quick pictures of your driveway gates? Been thinking on framing up my own for a 20' split swing config but don't quite know best way to mount hinge, wheels, etc. Also do you use stainless deck screws through boards? Appreciate any advice! Thanks for sharing
@@VariHapiiI hope he’s not using stainless screws with aluminum posts, I’d rather have zinc screws rot off than rot my posts. Aluminum when mixed with steel with be a mess without an anode.
I've built gates now for over 25 years knowing the right place to put the brace, and the once all of the fasteners are in place it's solid. As long as the post or whatever the hinges are attached to is solid... I've also adapted the brace laying flat ,so the fence boards have 3 1/2 " of area to fasten to and it's a lot less chance of flexing. I also cut both ends of the brace into a point so it rides both side and top and bottom of gate. Not sure if this is followable but I thought I'd give it a shot. I also have never had any issues with sag when building six by six foot gates ,and just having the one brace corner to corner. Yet! But I'll keep that anti sag cable in mind thanks. Usually just have a wheel on the bottom 😏
A tension brace of cable on threaded rod will cause the gate to twist or warp, unless it is dead center in the gate. Can’t be done with a face mounted brace kit.
My mom had gate that was about 15 years old and sagging. She had a handyman install one of those anti sag cables. It worked for about a year. So I bought about $20 of galvanized nuts,bolts and washers and replaced all the screws and nails one at at time. Each fence board had 3 bolts nuts and 6 washers. That gate was so strong you could stand on it. That was 20 years ago. It was still just as strong and sturdy 20 years later and never sagged again. It go another 20 years easily but my mom sold the house and the new owners tore down the whole fence to add a second garage. Nails and screws lost their grip and become lose as wood ages and some decay sets in around the holes nails and screws make. A bolt going all the way through the bracing and fence boards with washers on each side sandwitches everything together. Washers increase the surface area so much that even if the hole gets bigger from rot it will still hold the pieces together. If you ever have to replace the wood just reuse the nuts, bolts and washers.
As a homeowner who hires a fence company, I just assumed there were standards to be met. I also assumed that the physics would be imbedded in those standards. So glad I watched this video! Fun and interesting.
Depends on what material you are using as the diagonal support. Many people use wire with a turnbuckle it would have to be in tension and would work just as well. Always more than The Only Way....
I made a angle iron wide gate once. It was bolted together with a tension brace. The top outside corner would always lean down. I switched it to a compression brace and it always stayed straight.
Nice demonstration. However in a true fence the horizontal crossbeams will be secured by a vertical post at either side, so the diagonal support beam can actually go either way
I started incorporating tension braces in the joist system on decks using cables and turn buckles to help keep the bridging tight I like tension braces
‼️ SCREW HOLE PROBLEMS? If the wood is too soft for fasteners causing malformation or fastener or frame wambling, I will improve the hole or fastening by gluing in a hard wood dowel. I use walnut, birch or oak. Do note, some hardwood dowels are sold as half inch, but they are slightly larger and a 13mm is the right size drill. I use wood bit with an auger and side ear cutter. I happen to use Gorilla Wood glue in the hole and on the entire dowel as it sets up fast. I also smear the exposed edge of the dowel if it’s outside so it does not rot. I always drill a pilot hole in the dowel. I use a calipers and chose a bit ever slightly thicker than the center shaft of the screw. I have a 115 bit machine drill kit and thousands of an inch caliper and I use them often. These dowels are also perfect for door lock strike plate’s and hinge screw strip outs. I have been using this technique for years and never have a call back. Think about it, door frames are often pine. Some well intended homeowners and so called “professional’s” (morons) use tooth picks and pencil wood, an even flimsier wood. Use of hard wood dowels simply work and it’s a professional job with bragging rights. Great video BTW!
Gentlemen...That was a very impressive & well thought-out presentation! I have seen some crazy "Billy-Bob" fencing in my day & I always have to muse, "where the hell did you learn to build fence?" Physics, geometry, and a wee bit of, (figure it the hell out)...Nicely done!
I put the bottom of the diagonal on the hinged stile not the rail. That way the stile-rail joint has no added forces. Also, the brace doesn’t need to span the diagonal. On a gate taller than it is wide a 45 degree brace to the hinge leg is sufficient and allows a horizontal rail in the middle as an attachment point to help keep vertical facing flat.
Maybe the gate was built over a hundred years ago as the ones on my ranch are from the 1810s and rebuilt in the 1890s. I think my ancestors were drinking lots of moonshine when building gates. We have trapezoid and windmill tensioners on our gates. They look weird and random but lasted the test of time.
Its a question as to which hinge is taking the most load, as well as which fasteners. With the first option on the small gate most of the load is on the lower hinge and on the top outer fasteners. With the second option the load is on the top hinge and on the lower outer hardware.
With the longer gate that you split up, with the vertical divider, you effectively put the same amount of shear (tearing) force on those fasteners in the middle, along with the crossmembers bearing additional weight. If you were to backstop (plunge frame) the vertical post in a "Z" pattern, both of those diagonal braces would be pushing against wood, not just fasteners. Shear forces are not good on most fasteners over time, they'll give left or right, and they'll shear right off. Better to fill that voided space with wood and the good ol' normal force do some work.
I already knew my backyard gate was backwards and has sagged over the years. Really enjoyed this video and the casual banter lol. You guys Canadian!? ❤
if i hadn't played weeks of polybridge i would be pretty lost. a demonstration with elastics like rubber bands for tension and something easily bendable like cardboard or plastic for compression could help develop a more intuitive understanding of the basic forces in play.
Excellent fellas. I looked at the two gates I built years ago and guess what, 0 for 3. Neither is correct and one is too long anyways and needs a middle brace. However, they are working okay, so there is something to be said for using screws to put in the fence planks which keeps them square (enough). Alas, the perfectionist in me says this goes on my do to list.
On the longer gate, adding the vertical brace as shown doesn't do anything except transfer the stress to the fasteners holding the vertical brace. If you look at it at 3:10, any pressure on the end of the gate is just going to kick that brace to the left at the top, and to the right at the bottom, and it's going to fail. Putting the diagonal brace on the right side in the other direction, so the braces make a V would make more sense, because then they would both be in compression. Any pressure on the left end of the gate would transfer down the left brace, to the bottom of the right brace, and back up to the top right end of the gate. That said, it's entirely unnecessary to have multiple braces, EXCEPT if the weight of the gate would be likely to cause a single long diagonal brace to warp over time. Then it makes sense to have 2 shorter, stronger, braces, in a V.
I am a pressure washer and gutter cleaner and always have to open wooden gates almost everyday. I always have trouble opening home owner's gates and complain to my partner about it each time. I just thought wooden gates weren't great, but thanks for clearing it up!
@SWiFence I second that opinion. No music. No title waste of time Don't tell me why I'm here I know why. Straight to the point... particularly good because now I understand the difference between tension and compression... pretty interesting...
What about using both styles? A beam to take the compression and back it up with a wire taking on tension? By necessity the wire would have to pass through the compression brace (which is, itself, reinforced at that point) or to one side or the other of it (or both) which I imagine would impart wear where the two cross if they're in contact.
If my wood gate is sagging do I have to take the hinges off first and then put a wood compression brace on or just place a piece a wood under it and then put the brace in
most gates arent perfectly square most the time they're like about 3ft wide and 6 foot tall the compression brace still works it doesnt have to be a 45 degree angle regardless always brace from bottom corner of hinge side to top corner of latch side
Well, actually... even in the second version, it all relies on the fasteners, just other ones! You are still tensioning the top hinge side fasteners of the frame, instead of the brace' ones.
Hmm, my problem is I’m not sure if my gate is sagging because of the joints in the gate sagging or if the posts that the gate is connected to have leaned because they were not laid in deep enough or properly.
What is the rule for post depth? For example; if your gate is (X) long and (X) height, your post should be (X) height and installed (X) depth? Also, if you're using wood for the post, what is the best wood and how should the post be installed into the ground, for example, in concrete or another type of material? Should there be the use of a barrier sheet as well? Thank you in advance.
1/3 in the ground. Depending on your soil may need more depth. Loaded question because so many things go into the answer. Soil type, weight of the gate, max swing of the gate, environment (rain, snow, heat). If you want a better answer that applies to you please provide more details.
What would you recommend for a 5m wide timber white picket sliding gate? Would you add a centre vertical support or would one or two diagonal supports be enough? Gate will be about 1.2m high
Retired structural engineer here. There is nothing magical about 45 degrees and the physics doesn’t change with a bigger angle.
Agree! The material used and how much load it can carry determine the optimal angle .. 45 is arbitrary with out context.
Yup, I've built plenty of long gates and they hold up just fine.
Vertical strength of brace is superior in an angle below 45 degrees. No stress on the fasteners. Because the fasteners are not needed. But over 45 degrees, the arm is distended, the brace wants to rock down, it's up to the fasteners to prevent a single degree of sag. At this point shear strength of wood and fasteners come into play. Stuff starts to move.
@@trehobbs6568As OP said, nothing magical about 45. 10 is better than 25 is better than 45 is better than 60 is better than 85.
Finally a decent answer. 45 will depend on width of gate and if you can fit 45 into this length. They have no idea.
Y'all crammed a ton of jokes AND good information into just a few minutes. Love the quick, no-fluff editing.
This is the simplest yet most effective video on gates. Most people need a visual and this was perfect for that
I would add this was an excellent video in general. No obnoxious background music, no (long) boring intro with fireworks, no silly flashing images in background, the humor was subtle and entertaining. I urge all video creators to strive for this. (P.S. I don't even have a gate.)
Except it’s wrong.
@@blacksquirrel4008they got the long gate wrong 😂
@@terry_willis You must be an older person, Nothing wrong with that. But, there is nothing wrong with adding a little, music, flare, and comedy to content in this day and age. I enjoy it as long as it's not a cut every 2 seconds, lol.
@@jonwelch564 Explain how it is wrong? Back up your claim?
I’m currently working on a timber framed bridge design project for my school. It’s more of a conceptual drafting project than anything else because we’re not focused on the physics side of things just the hand drafting aspect, but this explains so much about historic wooden bridge designs it’s hilarious to think I had this element explained so well in a recommended video about fence integrity.
To be clear. This only applies to wood gates. Steel gates work vastly better under tension. As well as aluminum. I have built 60 or 70 as wide as 26 foot free span.
Interesting. Why is that?
@hrmIwonder Think about a bicycle spoke. The wood method works because wood sucks at holding a fastener under tension for long term. Steel on the other hand does not care. When a fat kid swings on a steel gate. If it's compression bracing the brace needs to be strong enough to hold a compressed load of a fat kid a 20 feet. It takes a 2.5 to 3 inch sch40 pipe minimum. If under tention. A 1 inch pipe or even 1/4x1 flat stock is way more than strong enough to hold thay fat kid at 20 feet. I have built a LOT of steel and aluminum gates.
@tireballastserviceofflorid7771 thanks! That makes sense. You could suspend a 10lbs weight from a wire but it wouldn't support the weight under compression. I hadn't looked at it that way. Thanks again!
@@hrmIwonder Exactly.
And that’s why almost all of our modern bridges are suspension bridges (under tension) vs compression arch bridges. Loved the fat kid example. Works pretty good in my imagination center of the brain.
Best ad for a 2 screws and a wire I've ever seen.
Joking aside, I really appreciated how well this was presented. All ads should genuinely teach something like this one did.
I'm not sure why there is concern about going greater than 45 degrees, sure it is not 'as strong' but it is more than strong enough, and still the right direction.
Another trick to point out, you can build the frame for a gate, wrap a single wire all the way around it and tighten just that, and then throw your diagonal compression bar in.
FAST, SIMPLE, CHEAP and will last forever.
Dammm you guys packed a whole bunch of info in a few minutes, love the back and forth conversation. Had to subscribed
There must be a lot of people out there bracing gates. Over a million views in 6 days? Thanks, guys, we'll be seeing straight and well-braced gates everywhere now :) You've got to love engineering, you picked up a new subscriber. :)
I'm not bracing gates, but I find engeneering interesting as a hobby
I had no intention of watching this video, but the thumbnail was interesting to me. I watched the whole way through too. Sooooo KEEP IT UP!
There is no magic about 45deg. Sure It is a good rule of thumb; the shallower the angle the more weight is on compression and the more it pushes the end out proportionally to the amount it supports then end in the upward angle, but 46 deg is not all of a sudden going to break or last half as long. Same applies to tension cables. If you had a gate 3x the height a tension cable and its mounting will need to be much stronger than for a square. But a 5' wide gate that is 4' high would not really be a problem, either for compression or tension.
Other than the critical 45deg, I think the video was excellent and good for someone trying to keep in their dogs.
So glad I saw this before replacing my gate (that I braced wrong) this spring. Thanks.
I don't have a gate. Great video. Good personal dynamics, well structured video, no useless info, explanations of why the physics matter, and solutions for different scenarios. 10/10
@LTVoyager is right: nothing magical about 45 degrees. It’s just that the tension or compression gets more extreme as the diagonal element gets closer to horizontal.
Another point: the top horizontal member is in tension either way. Its force is carried by fasteners either way. So while having the diagonal member in compression is better, the other forces need to be considered as well.
Great video!
It also depends on the direction of the wood used to build the gate.
With horizontal installed ‘planks’, your pressure-solution works great.
With vertical installed planks, the pressure solution will slowly push the vertical planks go wider and wider until the gate wont fit anymore
Nothing magical about 45°.
Moving the brace from 55° from vertical to 45° adds extra leverage bearing on the brace erasing any advantage. This calculation needs to be done with vectors, not intuition.
@@stipcrane once you exceed 45° the gate starts to work as a leverage, multiplying load forces.
It's a magical number in the way computer programmers use the term: It's unexplained, it's not necessary to understand how it's found, but if you change the value things go wrong. PI = 3.1415926 is an example. Here it's more "rule of thumb" than real magical number but OK.
It’s nice to see you explain the right way to build fences!! Not the usual on TH-cam!!
I WORKED for NW fence in Spokane Valley /Idaho fence in Post Falls. Not an easy job NWF was 6days a week 10 hours a day 30 years ago work for the railroad these days…run my train past 5 fences I built that are still standing and makes me appreciate my engineer job more every time I pass them! Keep up the good work!
I get this wrong pretty much every time. I build a gate. I can justify both ways… but “this is under tension”helps a lot. Great video, thanks guys!
I admit I didn't watch the whole video, but for my wooden gates, I installed two diagonal threaded rods with a turn buckle in the middle, and eye hooks at each end, so I can adjust the gate at any time it gets out of alignment at the latch. It works great and won't wear out. Rust protection is required, but since you rarely need to adjust it after it is set up correctly, I just painted the threaded rods and turn buckle to match the wooden gate. You can always touch up the paint if it gets scuffed off during any of your adjustments. For this application, the brace is installed in tension, like the position of the wood brace when he first tried it.
Here because of the algorithm. I have no intention of needing to fix a gate or anything to do with fences or gates, but these guys are awesome, and I love the video.
The algorithm works in mysterious ways.
Quality content is quality content.
I didn't even know I didn't know this.
Thanks!
Wow, it's so nice to learn how to solve an issue i didn't know existed...pretty nice video and i love how you showed the issue that you were trying to solve and how to solve it!
Such a great video showing the importance of understanding compression and tension. I wish the people who built the fence on my house had understood these basic fundamentals of structural engineering. Pretty sure they did my very large gate doors totally backwards haha… now to go fix them!
On iron gates its best to do the opposite of wood because metal will bend easier than stretch.
I work in steel, and endorse this statement.
Makes sense, similar to what the mentioned about rods/tensioning at the start
thanks for posting this. I made an iron gate in tension a few years ago, and i thought it was a failure.
build a steel gate the opposite to a wood one? thats nonsense, if you makf the steel gate out of steel with the same profile as the wood used, then the steel gate will react to forces applied to it, in exactlly the same manner as the wood one, the only difference being the steel gate will withstand load forces many times higher than the wood one, if you want to see where the loads are appied to a gate, just have a look at a shelf bracket, the direction of loads on a shelf bracket are exactly the same as those acting on a gate, theres a reason why shelf brackets are never fitted upside down…and they are normally made from steel,
@robertmagnusjamieson1759 that would assume you used the same coss section of steel as wood, but typically a steel gate would be made of slimmer sections than a timber one due to steel being harder and denser than wood.
Slim sections are more susceptible to buckling than thick sections of equal tensile strength, which is why we use them in tension not compression.
You can pull a truck with a wire hawser, but you can't push it.
How the hell did I get here? Very interesting though
Yeah, same.
🤣👍🏼
Have you talked about repairing or working on a fence lately? Google is always listening. That's how I got here. Just did a fence build last weekend.
That’s what I’m saying too 😂
Most entertaining video on gates ever.
I may even remember what you said when it's time to fix my gates.
As some other people commented before ... this was a well presented video. Pleasure to watch. Thank you & subscribed
Awesome, thank you!
Your example with your arm is incorrect. If that gate on the left were just as long but taller, the brace would work fine. The reason the brace starts to fail at less than 45 degrees is that it approaches parallel to the horizontal members of the gate and starts to lose the advantage of a triangle. As the angel of the brace gets shallower, a given amount of compression of the brace translates into a larger vertical movement of the gate.
nothing worse than shallow angels!
got me!@@kenwittlief255
If my gate is long enough that I put a support wheel on the other side to keep the post up, would you put the second brace facing the wheel?
I like this question.
Probably yes but it depends. A brace pointing downwards towards the wheel will direct more of the load to the wheel. Usually you want that since it means less on the rest of the structure. But then the question is, how much load can the wheel handle?
Holy cow… this was the most useful 5 minutes I’ve spent in YEARS! Thanks guys!!!
You're welcome!
You tought me something today. Thank you. Great video.
Mostly good info, but your two diagonal design for the long gate has that center post in tension so it relies on the fasteners to connect it to the frame or the braces, but you made it seem like it'd work also without relying on fasteners.
yes and the brace in tension is also trying to break the fasteners holding the outside vertical board in place and the one holding the bottom horizontial board by the hinge
the premise of this video is wrong
Very clear video. Only thing would be to switch your use of “less than” and “greater than” 45 degrees.
Or just ditch the arbitrary 45 degrees because the principle doesn’t stop working at shallower angles.
I believe the placement of the lower end as shown exerts pressure on the hinge. If placed against the vertical it would redirect the pressure
I never knew this....Thank you so much for the explanation and as to why you would brace this way. I also sub'd. Great job.
Glad it was helpful!
Built gates for 35 years. Ditch the cedar or redwood as those wood species are too soft to serve as structural support. For a personnel gate weld 1" square aluminum tubing into a rectangle with one cross brace. Weld on a piece of flat plate to secure a latch. Then attach your fence boards directly to the aluminum with short deck screws. There, the gate will never rot, twist or sag. For driveway gates use 1 1/2 or 2" tubing and a little trigonometry for additional bracing. In and around Pasadena CA you can find over 200 of these gates which I built.
Do you happen to have any quick pictures of your driveway gates? Been thinking on framing up my own for a 20' split swing config but don't quite know best way to mount hinge, wheels, etc. Also do you use stainless deck screws through boards? Appreciate any advice! Thanks for sharing
@alberthartl8885 i think youll find the video is about bracing a gate, not making one!
For this comment to fit in with the video you should have said which way the cross brace goes. Clue: metal tubing is best in tension not compression.
Aluminum tubing absolutely corrodes if you do not provide an anode and make it a circuit. Calcifies and pits up until it’s weaker than rusty steel.
@@VariHapiiI hope he’s not using stainless screws with aluminum posts, I’d rather have zinc screws rot off than rot my posts. Aluminum when mixed with steel with be a mess without an anode.
I've built gates now for over 25 years knowing the right place to put the brace, and the once all of the fasteners are in place it's solid. As long as the post or whatever the hinges are attached to is solid... I've also adapted the brace laying flat ,so the fence boards have 3 1/2 " of area to fasten to and it's a lot less chance of flexing. I also cut both ends of the brace into a point so it rides both side and top and bottom of gate. Not sure if this is followable but I thought I'd give it a shot. I also have never had any issues with sag when building six by six foot gates ,and just having the one brace corner to corner. Yet! But I'll keep that anti sag cable in mind thanks. Usually just have a wheel on the bottom 😏
Great video title. Congrats on the million.
Thanks!
I thought I couldn't possibly learn more from this, boy I was wrong, thank you
A tension brace of cable on threaded rod will cause the gate to twist or warp, unless it is dead center in the gate. Can’t be done with a face mounted brace kit.
This is why you give your kids blocks as a toddler and not sit them behind a TV!
Yet here you are watching a video learning like the rest of us…
@x_Heffe_X I believe you missed my point, but it's never a bad thing to see someone elses ideas.
@@mikerainey3847 I didn’t miss your point, I was just giving you a hard time haha.
I fixed my wood fence gate by putting a caster wheel at the end. Been working for over 22 years so far
Poor kid, looking at the back of a tv. 😂
This has cleared up questions I had for years.
Tension and compression. In the final position as described the wood is under compression and the wire under tension. Thanks for sharing.
Holy cat crap, I've been doing this backwards my whole fuggin life!
You've been making gates you're whole life but bracing the opposite way? I smell Bullshit
how do people build Bill Gates?
However they do it, please lock him in and keep rest of us safe!
A little bit of vaccine and a lotta bit of Epstein?
Best ask Satan
First you get a whole bunch of horse shit and pile it up 2 stories high and your on your way
With heaps of cash
Actually made my first gate on my garden fence a month or so ago. It works fine, but i think ill be switching my brace to face the other way now
Thank you so much for explaining how this works!
You're welcome!
OH COME ON WHY DOES THAT SEEM SO COUNTERINTUITIVE
I'M SO GLAD YOU SHOWED ME I'M SO GLAD I KNOW BETTER NOW THANK YOU
My mom had gate that was about 15 years old and sagging. She had a handyman install one of those anti sag cables. It worked for about a year. So I bought about $20 of galvanized nuts,bolts and washers and replaced all the screws and nails one at at time. Each fence board had 3 bolts nuts and 6 washers. That gate was so strong you could stand on it. That was 20 years ago. It was still just as strong and sturdy 20 years later and never sagged again. It go another 20 years easily but my mom sold the house and the new owners tore down the whole fence to add a second garage. Nails and screws lost their grip and become lose as wood ages and some decay sets in around the holes nails and screws make. A bolt going all the way through the bracing and fence boards with washers on each side sandwitches everything together. Washers increase the surface area so much that even if the hole gets bigger from rot it will still hold the pieces together. If you ever have to replace the wood just reuse the nuts, bolts and washers.
As a homeowner who hires a fence company, I just assumed there were standards to be met. I also assumed that the physics would be imbedded in those standards. So glad I watched this video! Fun and interesting.
aaaaand this just became a part of my physics curriculum. Thanks for the great content!
Welcome!
Buckminster Fuller would be proud of you two.
Depends on what material you are using as the diagonal support. Many people use wire with a turnbuckle it would have to be in tension and would work just as well. Always more than The Only Way....
OMG. This is brilliant. THANK YOU!!!!
You are so welcome!
bracing in tension mode is fine IMO if you use a cable or rod with turnbuckles.
I made a angle iron wide gate once. It was bolted together with a tension brace. The top outside corner would always lean down. I switched it to a compression brace and it always stayed straight.
Nice demonstration. However in a true fence the horizontal crossbeams will be secured by a vertical post at either side, so the diagonal support beam can actually go either way
Finally, somebody understands gate physics!
I started incorporating tension braces in the joist system on decks using cables and turn buckles to help keep the bridging tight
I like tension braces
‼️ SCREW HOLE PROBLEMS? If the wood is too soft for fasteners causing malformation or fastener or frame wambling, I will improve the hole or fastening by gluing in a hard wood dowel. I use walnut, birch or oak. Do note, some hardwood dowels are sold as half inch, but they are slightly larger and a 13mm is the right size drill. I use wood bit with an auger and side ear cutter. I happen to use Gorilla Wood glue in the hole and on the entire dowel as it sets up fast. I also smear the exposed edge of the dowel if it’s outside so it does not rot. I always drill a pilot hole in the dowel. I use a calipers and chose a bit ever slightly thicker than the center shaft of the screw. I have a 115 bit machine drill kit and thousands of an inch caliper and I use them often. These dowels are also perfect for door lock strike plate’s and hinge screw strip outs. I have been using this technique for years and never have a call back. Think about it, door frames are often pine. Some well intended homeowners and so called “professional’s” (morons) use tooth picks and pencil wood, an even flimsier wood. Use of hard wood dowels simply work and it’s a professional job with bragging rights. Great video BTW!
Gentlemen...That was a very impressive & well thought-out presentation! I have seen some crazy "Billy-Bob" fencing in my day & I always have to muse, "where the hell did you learn to build fence?" Physics, geometry, and a wee bit of, (figure it the hell out)...Nicely done!
I put the bottom of the diagonal on the hinged stile not the rail. That way the stile-rail joint has no added forces. Also, the brace doesn’t need to span the diagonal. On a gate taller than it is wide a 45 degree brace to the hinge leg is sufficient and allows a horizontal rail in the middle as an attachment point to help keep vertical facing flat.
I built fences and decks for years, and used a gate design that did not sag! I was always amazed at the individuals that didn't get this concept.
Maybe they had a crappy instructor or supervisor that was too busy being amazed at their own brilliance to teach them.
Maybe the gate was built over a hundred years ago as the ones on my ranch are from the 1810s and rebuilt in the 1890s. I think my ancestors were drinking lots of moonshine when building gates. We have trapezoid and windmill tensioners on our gates. They look weird and random but lasted the test of time.
Its a question as to which hinge is taking the most load, as well as which fasteners.
With the first option on the small gate most of the load is on the lower hinge and on the top outer fasteners.
With the second option the load is on the top hinge and on the lower outer hardware.
Really helpful tips,,,thanks guys you got yourself another subscriber,,,
Thanks!
I use a cable and turnbuckles to bring the fences back to square. I should have waited a couple of minutes to see your cable solution. Good job.
Nothing wrong with your cable & turnbuckle idea. 👍🏻
We used to sing these words "the bottom of the brace goes the hinges side" Thankyou for your presentation .... Chris . . . Norwich, England
Love it! 😆
With the longer gate that you split up, with the vertical divider, you effectively put the same amount of shear (tearing) force on those fasteners in the middle, along with the crossmembers bearing additional weight. If you were to backstop (plunge frame) the vertical post in a "Z" pattern, both of those diagonal braces would be pushing against wood, not just fasteners.
Shear forces are not good on most fasteners over time, they'll give left or right, and they'll shear right off. Better to fill that voided space with wood and the good ol' normal force do some work.
I already knew my backyard gate was backwards and has sagged over the years. Really enjoyed this video and the casual banter lol. You guys Canadian!? ❤
Wyoming. Not toooo far away.
This is the best marketing video ive ever seen I wish I had a saggy gate
Damn. Nice work.
Subscribed.
Home depot sells metal gate kits and they are pretty good!
if i hadn't played weeks of polybridge i would be pretty lost. a demonstration with elastics like rubber bands for tension and something easily bendable like cardboard or plastic for compression could help develop a more intuitive understanding of the basic forces in play.
Finally someone highlighting this. I estimate half of gates are made wrong and it's always annoyed me
I dont even have a gate, and still enjoyed this clip
I randomly landed here. GREAT VIDEO!!
I don't need this information but I'm glad I have it.
Excellent fellas. I looked at the two gates I built years ago and guess what, 0 for 3. Neither is correct and one is too long anyways and needs a middle brace. However, they are working okay, so there is something to be said for using screws to put in the fence planks which keeps them square (enough). Alas, the perfectionist in me says this goes on my do to list.
no sag gate kit at lowes, four pieces with hinges. works great.
On the longer gate, adding the vertical brace as shown doesn't do anything except transfer the stress to the fasteners holding the vertical brace. If you look at it at 3:10, any pressure on the end of the gate is just going to kick that brace to the left at the top, and to the right at the bottom, and it's going to fail. Putting the diagonal brace on the right side in the other direction, so the braces make a V would make more sense, because then they would both be in compression. Any pressure on the left end of the gate would transfer down the left brace, to the bottom of the right brace, and back up to the top right end of the gate. That said, it's entirely unnecessary to have multiple braces, EXCEPT if the weight of the gate would be likely to cause a single long diagonal brace to warp over time. Then it makes sense to have 2 shorter, stronger, braces, in a V.
I am a pressure washer and gutter cleaner and always have to open wooden gates almost everyday. I always have trouble opening home owner's gates and complain to my partner about it each time. I just thought wooden gates weren't great, but thanks for clearing it up!
Thanks Boys i like you style. It is Sunday so IHOP after early service.
Love this video, no bs long winded talking. Simply to the point.
I appreciate that!
@SWiFence I second that opinion. No music. No title waste of time Don't tell me why I'm here I know why. Straight to the point... particularly good because now I understand the difference between tension and compression... pretty interesting...
What about using both styles? A beam to take the compression and back it up with a wire taking on tension? By necessity the wire would have to pass through the compression brace (which is, itself, reinforced at that point) or to one side or the other of it (or both) which I imagine would impart wear where the two cross if they're in contact.
Compression is great, but it takes a larger, more structural component. Tension can even use rope and cable to get the job done.
True
If my wood gate is sagging do I have to take the hinges off first and then put a wood compression brace on or just place a piece a wood under it and then put the brace in
The post the gate hangs on should be braced as well with a mid rail or truss rod depending on the fence
most gates arent perfectly square most the time they're like about 3ft wide and 6 foot tall the compression brace still works it doesnt have to be a 45 degree angle
regardless always brace from bottom corner of hinge side to top corner of latch side
You could use a cable in tension on the tension diagonal to keep the gate light.
stiles are verticle parts, rails are horizontal parts
This is exactly what I was looking for
Nice video guys. 👍👍
Got you a subscriber!
Sweet!
Well, actually... even in the second version, it all relies on the fasteners, just other ones! You are still tensioning the top hinge side fasteners of the frame, instead of the brace' ones.
Steel buckles under compression.
You need to stretch it for it to fail under tension.
Hmm, my problem is I’m not sure if my gate is sagging because of the joints in the gate sagging or if the posts that the gate is connected to have leaned because they were not laid in deep enough or properly.
I knew this from day one because it made sense, common sense
What is the rule for post depth? For example; if your gate is (X) long and (X) height, your post should be (X) height and installed (X) depth?
Also, if you're using wood for the post, what is the best wood and how should the post be installed into the ground, for example, in concrete or another type of material? Should there be the use of a barrier sheet as well?
Thank you in advance.
1/3 in the ground. Depending on your soil may need more depth.
Loaded question because so many things go into the answer. Soil type, weight of the gate, max swing of the gate, environment (rain, snow, heat).
If you want a better answer that applies to you please provide more details.
Nice work, guys
I usually put the wood brace in compression but also add a steel tensioner! Yeah, i wear both belt and suspenders 😂
lol a real Chad
They don't make them like they used to.
“you are a square” 🤣. Great video
I'm convinced. From now on I'll use piano hinges on my gates.
Er... 🤣
You gained a sub off of a "gate dysfunction" joke. Well done.
What would you recommend for a 5m wide timber white picket sliding gate? Would you add a centre vertical support or would one or two diagonal supports be enough? Gate will be about 1.2m high