You are correct to note that fabric was held dear and as a result pains were taken to make the most efficient use of the fabric (remember that prior to the 19th Century all clothing was hand woven and all sewing was done by hand).
@ 4:09 oh hey, my mom would make our ukrainian dancing costumes, (who knows how old the pattern is) and that diamond shape insert at the armpit, where the sleeve meets the body of the tunic, I was so surprised by how much more arm movement it allows. I tried dancing in the regular raglan sleeve modern sort of pattern and the arm goes up, your shirt gets untucked. ugh. So annoying. That small bit of material in the armpit is genious.
I’ve always wondered about the bust support thing! It seems like it would be so uncomfortable to do heavy farm work with everything swinging around, but maybe that’s just me
Thank you for this. I have been searching for this type of information for 40 years. I am still working out what I want in bust support. If one good thing has come of this last two years it's me finding TH-cam and all you wonderful people!
See my comment just posted today I just posted .The historic clothing people at Historic Royal Palaces explain it exactly. Stiffened layers at the side and back, drawing bust down.
This is very cool! As someone who has worn a binder for many years, it was tough to get used to and people often comment how uncomfortable it must still be - but it isn’t. In fact, I can attest to how shockingly uncomfortable I was when I tried a bra on a few years ago - I couldn’t believe I’d worn one every day for years. Very restrictive and weird for someone who isn’t used to it.
@@snowwhite5842 It is a shame you are filled with such poison you cannot accept the world around you. I hope you eventually find some peace with the world as it is, in the meantime please stop trying to hurt those who have done you no harm.
@@snowwhite5842...so wearing a bra is accepting your body for what it is, but this isn't? It's just a different garment of clothing. With your logic, whenever we wear undergarments of this nature, we "can't accept our bodies". Strange mindset.
@@snowwhite5842it’s a shame you can’t understand that for some women, due to autoimmune conditions or any chest surgeries, ie; lung or heart surgery, wearing a regular bra is excruciatingly painful 😣
fascinating video! It's always interesting how people in the past dealt with issues that we also face. I think there's a tendency to think that we have figured everything out, and people of the past just had to make do, when in reality they had their own way of doing things that could arguably work better than some modern bras. I wonder with some "braless" styles coming back (bandana/cowl shirts, backless dresses) if we'll see other methods of support being used
The reason why clothing became more fitted and shaped at that time is because scissors were invented. Before that, people cut their fabric with shears (the same tool used for shearing sheep), which work differently and are not good for cutting curves, much better for cutting straight lines. Excellent video, very informative. Love it. 😃
This is what I learned once too, but it doesn't work. Scissors have been around since the Romans. Hose were used before the 1300s, and needs to be cut to fit. Fashion just changes sometimes, for different reasons than the invention of scissors.
The reason garments used to be made mostly of rectangles and triangles was because there was a lot less wasted fabric that way. When you are raising the sheep, shearing them by hand, washing, carding, and spinning the wool, dyeing it, then weaving it all by hand, you really, really don't want to waste even a square inch of that fabric. (Ditto for linen, re: the amount of hand labor that went into getting it from a field of flax plants to finished fabric.)
@@kathleensanderson3082 I have read about the process of turning flax plants into linen thinking I can't have sheep in a city backyard but could grow flax. Cotton has a lot of rules and laws regarding growing that plant in Virginia so that's out for me unless I wish to leap through multiple hoops. When I saw how much flax had to be grown so that after processing there was enough to spin, I decided my townhouse backyard was better suited to growing extra herbs and small veggies for the kitchen. Essentially, about half of what is grown can be spun into linen thread. My spinning is beginner level so I'll wait for a while before attempting to grow my own. I have read about a woman down the road (I-95) who does have classes on both growing flax and spinning it. That is the place to begin rather than endless experimenting. All this to say that linen is a lot of hard work so I'd never want to waste an inch.
@karingustafsson is right - there have been scissors found in the roman settlements along the rhine river (Germany) even - dating back to 2nd or 3rd century ad - scissors on the easter mediterranean coast date back to at least 400 bc - a scissor as we know it with a joint - the arch-scissors may be much older even - Mesopotamia?
I just recently finished a laced up bust supporter and I LOVE it. I wanted to make a self supporting bodice that wouldn't require a lot of corsetry/boning experience. Even though I'm on the small* side I haven't been able to buy off the rack bras for years that remain comfortable, they're always either a bit too big or too small. I was inspired by Morgan's Lindbergh bra video and I based it on the upper half of kirtle. I based my pattern off a resize of a bodice I draped on myself a couple months back, using paper tape and tracing the lines onto fabric. My bust support is made with one layer of printed cotton, one of linen and a stiffer cotton along the front where the lacing holes are. I actually used your video to do my first eyelets, all 23 of them heheh. It was more of an stash busting experiment but the girls are at high tea and I love it, makes me feel so pretty and I want to make more. Even if the top edge is visible through my modern clothes. *For reference I'm late 20s about 5' 3-ish/161 cm, slim but not athletic: 31-23-34in/79-58-86cm~ at my smallest.
Very interesting! I have always thought clothing historians are too glib when they say something like, "The garment next to the skin was the chemise," and put on a loose, straight, garment. The Lengberg Castle find confirmed my suspicions that there was more to the story. I would be very interested in a detailed examination of that find. Another assertion I find irritating is, "No one wore anything like underpants." That seems to me very unlikely, given the cost of clothing and the expense and trouble of laundering garments. Some sort of "smallclothes" is logical but I have never seen any information on the subject online except flat denials that such garments existed or an assertion that men just wrapped their shirttails around themselves. (Any fool knows that it's easier to wash some sort of loin cloth than an entire shirt!) I would be interested on a video on the subject.
You should look up the Langberg finds. The bra was discovered with several other garments. A few shirts, a dress, head wear, and a pair of underwear type things. It’s like a loin cloth that ties at the waist.
@@savvygood I have seen several articles, but none were as detailed as I would like. I admit I have not researched the subject for several months. Could you recommend a recent article that goes into detail?
You should also look up a saya encordata. A garment worn by both men and women in Spain during the mid to late 1200's and into the 1300's. It laced up on one side and was very supportive, but actually was worn as an over clothing... Kinda. It would often be worn under a sideless surcoat, aka Pellote. So three layers, chemise/shirt, saya encordata, sideless surcoat. You can see it prominently featured in King Alfonso the 10th of Castille's Book of Games, published in 1287(?). There's also an extant piece found in the tomb of Lenore of Castille.
I have an idea you may like, keep in mind I've never made a garment but you mentioned loving the Langberg (sp?), dress for it's support but we're bothered by the side lacing. What if you made a dress that laced on both sides for that additional, characteristic and adjustable support, but which also laced in the front? That way you place the dress on and adjust it on the sides first, can make small adjustments through the front, but can take it on and off using only the front lacing? I thought the advantage may be in it's extreme customizable nature and support as well as ease of use? I would love something like this with a detachable skirt. Why? Because I detest modern bras, I can't find a single supportive bra that sits attractively or comfortably and I feel so etching like this with it's thick strapped tank top shape could be worn under almost any shirt, does that make sense? I wish I had your artistic ability and talents but my arthritis, and frankly my wallet suppresses both. Lol Any suggestions? Also I'd love to know what you think of my three lace closure suggestion, no worries offending me if it's not up to snuff, I am not familiar with the artform and just thought to suggest it. Ty
I hate bras as well. I make bralettes now, from t shirt fabric (I upcycle old merch shirts) with broad elastic bands and they are so much better. Because I use old t shirts and a free pattern, its really cheap.
The more non-solid areas there are in a fitted garment, the more unstable it gets. So your idea may or may not work. Second hand sheets from the thrift store are a great way to get fabric to experiment with. I look for 100% cotton king size sheets, so I can get yards and yards of fabric for less than a dollar a yard.
I've been working on developing an asthma-friendly bust support in my free time for years now and feel like some of my home brews resembled Roman silhouettes
with the tunics and chemises, could there have been further under garments like binders/bandeaus and loin cloths?? like seen in Roman bath house mosaics?? and if so, the binder/bandeau could have been extra support.
Regarding the location of lacing, and to help the understanding: I've enjoyed sewing ever since I was a little one. And I used to be super skinny, really thin while now I am and have been a decade or more super fatty fat f a t fatty. Thus with my extensive experience in being various shapes and sizes, the lace up the front or back works well for the thin bodies while the side lacing works best for the bloaters and fattys. You're welcome. And for the record I am happy to eat well these days 🎉😂
Thank you for the video! It filled with so much good useful information. I've been wanting to incorporate more Edwardian wear into my wardrobe but I always needed more bust support because of my future plans and this is so helpful. Also I feel like this in modern wear is more help than bras for a lot of people.
The "tight dress" kirtle could also have been a former outer layer dress that had gotten too worn/faded/moth-eaten to wear as an outer layer. And if found by archaeologists, would not be distinguishable from an outer layer. The Lengberg garment makes German Renaissance clothing make a lot more sense. The Lengberg laces up the side, the gowns lace in the front, and the Brustfleck is a "modesty panel" over the bust bags.
Love the supportive underdress idea! I am about to attempt my first cotehardie (though not my first historic clothing in general) so I've been watching your videos to hype myself up. Great video as always ☺️
I have always wondered this. I love this time frame and the style and fashion and it has always made me wonder how the support worked. My own wedding dress was inspired by the 15th century in terms of style with a folded over side side panel and I still love it. I have preserved it in the box since the wedding. The reception was where Jane Austin stayed with medieval frame work on the building. It was very cool.
Wonderful video! Really useful, and thanks for all those links, they're really helpful! I find the fitted sleeveless garments the most interesting, because we have something similar, rubáč, as a part of our traditional dress. It is simpler in construction though, being fully made out of rectangles with the body being just a tube you'd barely be able to fit into to get the bust support without lacing. No cups, really simple straps and two rectangles, one of them gathered. But we also know it's pre-9th century in origin, so it makes me question whether it's a really funny coincidence, or if we maybe somehow influenced the medieval ones. And as a fun fact, rubáč is still worn by some on a daily basis.
Longer waist trainers offer a great amount of support to me. I have to wear two overlapping because commercial ones aren't long enough for me from underbust to hip. Corsettes & fitted over dresses / jackets also can work well with proper fitting. Just found your channel this morning! Liked & subscribed! 😁❤
@@susanramsay4189 Over-shoulder boulder holders, invented by Herr Titzling, according to the book 'Bust-Up: The Uplifting Tale of Otto Titzling', published in 1972.
I've loved Renaissance outfits since Jr High. I've made a couple chamises and found, for my history and lack of liking tighter clothes, that having a vest bodice that is slightly small I can lace up works great for me. I'm still looking for some sort of a corset so I don't have to lace and unlace each time.
Yaasss past self looking out for future self is the best 💯 this was great, thank you for all the information! And I have to say, you look happy and more grounded within yourself, it's a beautiful thing 💜 🤗
Past self has her moments! I'm so glad you enjoyed it, and I definitely do feel more grounded within myself, so I'm glad that comes across. There's been a lot of personal growth behind the scenes recently, and I look forward to continuing that journey!
as someone who prefers loose sportsbras to bras (or even materity bras that have no metal wire in them), I really like the topic of this video. It inspires me to make my own support which is all for me. ^^
I prefer to think that you've grown into the Lengberg inspired underdress. Shees, how many years does does it take a research ream to draft a pattern? You've reminded me how long it's been since the Lengberg discovery
Hans Holbein, the court painter of Henry V111, made many sketches, but the ones that interest the clothing historians are the ones showing the back and sides of dressed, which are rarely depicted in paintings. Based on this and other evidence, including Holbein and others portraits, the people at Historic Royal Palaces state, as reported in "Tudor Fashion" by Eleri Lynn, Yale Press in corporation with Historic Royal Palaces that "to achieve the softness of the décolletage...and to avoid the heaving bosoms of costume dramas...bodice boning must not rise above the bust and the fastenings for the stiffened layers must be at the back or sides, drawing the bust down and not pushing it up" (page 25)
Hi! you look beautiful! your purple hair so fun😂! I have the book Waisted Efforts, signed by Robert, from when I started needing undergarments for the gowns I was making. If anyone wants to buy it just let me know. I’m on the home stretch of my sewing life.
Very interested in this topic. I’ve had a lot of questions on my own channel and I haven’t really been able to answer them due to the face that my own experimentation hasn’t delved too much into this area as I don’t have much to support. I think I will direct any viewer questions to this video from now on.
Really interesting video. What materials do you use, how does that compare to what was available C12/C13, and what are the implications of this on the designs?
Coming to this late ... Do you think that as the waists of fashion rose (late 1400's - 1550's) that the waists of the Lindbergh under-dresses would have risen as well?
ok, but how about when you wear your underdress laced in front under something that also laces in front? This will be visible and may be uncomfortable. Also your landberg has bust support shape more for today than XIV century 🤔
do you think making a supportive outer dress is a project someone with little experience drafting could do? ive wanted to make one for a while but im nervous to make my own pattern since the dress should be tight. ive made a shift without a pattern before but i use commercial patterns for everything else
I have seen it done, but it's important to manage expectations and give yourself grace with mockups! I recently oversaw a friend of mine, not so experienced in drafting, draft hers using the instructions I came up with for my tutorial, and she got it right away! I usually advise that dress 1 is not expected to be totally fitted but more of a step along the process toward getting to supportive - if it's better than expected, then that's a bonus. In the vast majority of my prior experience teaching newer sewists / costumers, especially with this type of dress, I've found that the most intimidating part is getting started. Remember, the sooner you make an imperfect one, the sooner you get better! Even the most experienced of us often need at least a mockup or two!
Tbh the skirtless lengberg might work for you with that, if you used something like linen or cotton. One drawback of most of the more modern fabric is it doesn't wick sweat very well. Perhaps you already have tried something like this, I hope you find something that works for you, boob sweat can be so annoying
Love this! I am wondering if the last couple of dresses would be good under modern dresses?? After breastfeeding 5 babies, I am just having a hard time finding the support without underwire which I hate underwire.
I have read by one person that her version of the Lengberg bra worked well under modern clothes too, but I do not know anymore where that was. Her version was cut higher too, covering more of the decollete.
@@ashleighoverturf3599 I still don't know whether that was what I had in mind, but Katafalk has three posts on her blog about making her own Lengberg bra. She also includes a pattern and pictures. I will try to post the link below, but in a separate comment in case comments with links get automatically deleted on this channel. Edit: Yup, comment with links vanished. You will have to use google.
Katherine sews (YT channel) came up with a solution to this. She complained about similar things to you. She modified some vintage bra patterns. They were supportive without underwire. She filmed her process of making them.
OK good story. I bought a bra to push up and in. When I put it on, I was in shock. Hubby said I look beautiful. So we went out to sushi. I couldn’t even see my feet, but I am only a A- B cup! I couldn’t wait to get it off, I was sweaty and self conscious and so not myself. I am used to wearing sport bras. My husband also couldn’t wait to get it off either. A memory to keep always!
Stumbled across this video and love all of the information and examples you presented! Also, I will be honest and say some of the comments on here made me mad, so I want to leave a friendly reminder that you are lovely however you decide to appear/present yourself 🩵
i think I might sew a bra/top like you showed but without a skirt and maybe front lacing instead of side lacing ... I think people in the medieval ages had smaller breasts than people nowadays, at least smaller than me I guess 😅 I just hope it will work because tbh a bra can get pretty uncomfy and also it's not really fitting the style of that time
this is so interesting! as an afab nonbinary person, i like to wear historically inspired womenswear with binders, and i've always wondered what someone like me would have actually worn in the past. obviously gender was conceived and perceived very differently and they didn't have the terms we use now, but if someone born as a "woman" had wanted to flatten their chest, how would they have achieved that? i'm just learning to sew now and hoping to explore this idea in the future when i can make my own historical garments
Look towards eras that have a flatter fasionable bust shape, I'm thinking of bodied kirtles and early bodies/stays. As another afab nonbinary, I recognise wanting to dress historically while wanting to minimize dysphoria. I am currently working on a pair of stays made with the elisabethan corset pattern generator.
This is a really good question, and I hope anyone with experience can chime in! I know that you can certainly flatten by the shape of the "tight" laced garments, similarly to the way binders flatten and redistribute. Rather than aiming to lift, I would approach it as aiming to redistribute to the flatter shape. That would be my first engineering / patterning focused thought for this era.
Oh I wanted to add too that some menswear from the late middle ages started to see chest padding as a fashionable silhouette, and I wonder if that could play in to sort of a middle ground area as you come together between flattening a larger chest vs padding a smaller one. Just a thought that could either fizzle out or could take us to some new ideas!
@@scouttyra i do have a 16th century style kirtle that i bought and it has some flattening effect even without the binder, so i'd definitely want to try making a similar garment. i love the silhouettes of that era
Acknowledging Art of the European Middle Ages, is important to figure out function and fashion. Women were not known, as often for their writing, their own Art (though some, are now known) -Education or writing for Women were more often for clergy, Nuns, or Royalty. Even into the Renaissance, it was often forbidden to sketch or paint, or sculpt a Woman nude - find images, even of Adam & Eve, and anatomy is questionable. (I have degrees in Art, and Education) The recovery of Greek and Roman sculpture, by the Renaissance helped some Artists to avoid the ban on viewing Female anatomy, as guide,…or, as one of my college art history teachers said, “If male Artists had intimacy with Women, and could remember…” And, what words were used in literature, or parlance for undergarments and anatomy those centuries ago? When did “boobs”, or “the girls” arrive in common language? This is a fine thesis on garments - appreciation!
I've been interested in medieval history since I was 10 and in women's breasts since I was 11, so this is definitely an interesting video. It answers a lot of questions I only had partial answers to. (I mean answers about clothing, lol. I'm way older now and have most of the answers about breasts.)
Don't know if you like to know, but there is a theory that the era you're attracted too ((like how your attracted too Medieval)) is where you spent your past life
Check on your past lifetimes. Considering how much time Souls take between lifetimes, I can believe you had at least 2 lifetimes during that period and possibly 2 more during the Renaissance period. We bring with us what we have learned and experienced from the past.
Really enjoyed the information. On a more personal level, please lose the false eyelashes. They're too large and dark for your facial features and are not too attractive.
to be honest, i feel a bit scared by them. of course, you do you, but thing is, you do not see your face as often as others do, and in not-party or nightclub situation this kind of makeup looks just - scary for me :) and distracting form topic. maybe you have no eyelashes of your own, or they are invisible, but then, maybe, just maybe, try a lil bit smaller fake eyelashes? just to be not scary - but if you need to be, then of course go for it. if aposematic pattern scares away danger, then it works. not that i am danger... i hope. :D
I need a supportive underdress, such a smart idea
We all need more support
You are correct to note that fabric was held dear and as a result pains were taken to make the most efficient use of the fabric (remember that prior to the 19th Century all clothing was hand woven and all sewing was done by hand).
@ 4:09 oh hey, my mom would make our ukrainian dancing costumes, (who knows how old the pattern is) and that diamond shape insert at the armpit, where the sleeve meets the body of the tunic, I was so surprised by how much more arm movement it allows. I tried dancing in the regular raglan sleeve modern sort of pattern and the arm goes up, your shirt gets untucked. ugh. So annoying. That small bit of material in the armpit is genious.
that's why i will not make any top that doesn't have a gusset
I was really impressed by the skilled dressmaking shown here. Beautiful garments, all of them.
Just discovered this video. As a writer of medievalesque fantasy I think this will help me give my women characters some more depth. Thanks.
I am so glad it will help you! That is super cool, and I wish you lots of luck and success with the writings! ♥️
I’ve always wondered about the bust support thing! It seems like it would be so uncomfortable to do heavy farm work with everything swinging around, but maybe that’s just me
Thank you for this. I have been searching for this type of information for 40 years. I am still working out what I want in bust support. If one good thing has come of this last two years it's me finding TH-cam and all you wonderful people!
Yay I'm so glad it was helpful! It's always a journey to figure out exactly what works best for you!
See my comment just posted today I just posted .The historic clothing people at Historic Royal Palaces explain it exactly. Stiffened layers at the side and back, drawing bust down.
@@DaisyViktoria I would like to know how they supported before 1300s.
This is very cool! As someone who has worn a binder for many years, it was tough to get used to and people often comment how uncomfortable it must still be - but it isn’t. In fact, I can attest to how shockingly uncomfortable I was when I tried a bra on a few years ago - I couldn’t believe I’d worn one every day for years. Very restrictive and weird for someone who isn’t used to it.
It’s a shame you can’t accept your body for what it is.
@@snowwhite5842 its a shame you can't respect the personal choices of others.
@@snowwhite5842 It is a shame you are filled with such poison you cannot accept the world around you. I hope you eventually find some peace with the world as it is, in the meantime please stop trying to hurt those who have done you no harm.
@@snowwhite5842...so wearing a bra is accepting your body for what it is, but this isn't? It's just a different garment of clothing. With your logic, whenever we wear undergarments of this nature, we "can't accept our bodies". Strange mindset.
@@snowwhite5842it’s a shame you can’t understand that for some women, due to autoimmune conditions or any chest surgeries, ie; lung or heart surgery, wearing a regular bra is excruciatingly painful 😣
fascinating video! It's always interesting how people in the past dealt with issues that we also face. I think there's a tendency to think that we have figured everything out, and people of the past just had to make do, when in reality they had their own way of doing things that could arguably work better than some modern bras. I wonder with some "braless" styles coming back (bandana/cowl shirts, backless dresses) if we'll see other methods of support being used
For sure! We have always been very inventive!
The reason why clothing became more fitted and shaped at that time is because scissors were invented. Before that, people cut their fabric with shears (the same tool used for shearing sheep), which work differently and are not good for cutting curves, much better for cutting straight lines. Excellent video, very informative. Love it. 😃
wow, very interesting fact re scissors and how it such an interesting knock on effect.
This is what I learned once too, but it doesn't work. Scissors have been around since the Romans. Hose were used before the 1300s, and needs to be cut to fit. Fashion just changes sometimes, for different reasons than the invention of scissors.
The reason garments used to be made mostly of rectangles and triangles was because there was a lot less wasted fabric that way. When you are raising the sheep, shearing them by hand, washing, carding, and spinning the wool, dyeing it, then weaving it all by hand, you really, really don't want to waste even a square inch of that fabric. (Ditto for linen, re: the amount of hand labor that went into getting it from a field of flax plants to finished fabric.)
@@kathleensanderson3082 I have read about the process of turning flax plants into linen thinking I can't have sheep in a city backyard but could grow flax. Cotton has a lot of rules and laws regarding growing that plant in Virginia so that's out for me unless I wish to leap through multiple hoops. When I saw how much flax had to be grown so that after processing there was enough to spin, I decided my townhouse backyard was better suited to growing extra herbs and small veggies for the kitchen. Essentially, about half of what is grown can be spun into linen thread. My spinning is beginner level so I'll wait for a while before attempting to grow my own. I have read about a woman down the road (I-95) who does have classes on both growing flax and spinning it. That is the place to begin rather than endless experimenting.
All this to say that linen is a lot of hard work so I'd never want to waste an inch.
@karingustafsson is right - there have been scissors found in the roman settlements along the rhine river (Germany) even - dating back to 2nd or 3rd century ad - scissors on the easter mediterranean coast date back to at least 400 bc - a scissor as we know it with a joint - the arch-scissors may be much older even - Mesopotamia?
I just recently finished a laced up bust supporter and I LOVE it. I wanted to make a self supporting bodice that wouldn't require a lot of corsetry/boning experience. Even though I'm on the small* side I haven't been able to buy off the rack bras for years that remain comfortable, they're always either a bit too big or too small.
I was inspired by Morgan's Lindbergh bra video and I based it on the upper half of kirtle. I based my pattern off a resize of a bodice I draped on myself a couple months back, using paper tape and tracing the lines onto fabric. My bust support is made with one layer of printed cotton, one of linen and a stiffer cotton along the front where the lacing holes are. I actually used your video to do my first eyelets, all 23 of them heheh. It was more of an stash busting experiment but the girls are at high tea and I love it, makes me feel so pretty and I want to make more. Even if the top edge is visible through my modern clothes.
*For reference I'm late 20s about 5' 3-ish/161 cm, slim but not athletic: 31-23-34in/79-58-86cm~ at my smallest.
That's a genius project and even though the idea of making a bodice terrifies me, you're making me want to make a thing like yours. Hmmmm
Very interesting! I have always thought clothing historians are too glib when they say something like, "The garment next to the skin was the chemise," and put on a loose, straight, garment. The Lengberg Castle find confirmed my suspicions that there was more to the story. I would be very interested in a detailed examination of that find. Another assertion I find irritating is, "No one wore anything like underpants." That seems to me very unlikely, given the cost of clothing and the expense and trouble of laundering garments. Some sort of "smallclothes" is logical but I have never seen any information on the subject online except flat denials that such garments existed or an assertion that men just wrapped their shirttails around themselves. (Any fool knows that it's easier to wash some sort of loin cloth than an entire shirt!) I would be interested on a video on the subject.
Yes to all of this
You should look up the Langberg finds. The bra was discovered with several other garments. A few shirts, a dress, head wear, and a pair of underwear type things. It’s like a loin cloth that ties at the waist.
@@savvygood I have seen several articles, but none were as detailed as I would like. I admit I have not researched the subject for several months. Could you recommend a recent article that goes into detail?
You should also look up a saya encordata. A garment worn by both men and women in Spain during the mid to late 1200's and into the 1300's.
It laced up on one side and was very supportive, but actually was worn as an over clothing... Kinda. It would often be worn under a sideless surcoat, aka Pellote. So three layers, chemise/shirt, saya encordata, sideless surcoat.
You can see it prominently featured in King Alfonso the 10th of Castille's Book of Games, published in 1287(?). There's also an extant piece found in the tomb of Lenore of Castille.
I have an idea you may like, keep in mind I've never made a garment but you mentioned loving the Langberg (sp?), dress for it's support but we're bothered by the side lacing. What if you made a dress that laced on both sides for that additional, characteristic and adjustable support, but which also laced in the front? That way you place the dress on and adjust it on the sides first, can make small adjustments through the front, but can take it on and off using only the front lacing? I thought the advantage may be in it's extreme customizable nature and support as well as ease of use? I would love something like this with a detachable skirt. Why? Because I detest modern bras, I can't find a single supportive bra that sits attractively or comfortably and I feel so etching like this with it's thick strapped tank top shape could be worn under almost any shirt, does that make sense? I wish I had your artistic ability and talents but my arthritis, and frankly my wallet suppresses both. Lol Any suggestions? Also I'd love to know what you think of my three lace closure suggestion, no worries offending me if it's not up to snuff, I am not familiar with the artform and just thought to suggest it. Ty
I hate bras as well. I make bralettes now, from t shirt fabric (I upcycle old merch shirts) with broad elastic bands and they are so much better. Because I use old t shirts and a free pattern, its really cheap.
The more non-solid areas there are in a fitted garment, the more unstable it gets. So your idea may or may not work.
Second hand sheets from the thrift store are a great way to get fabric to experiment with. I look for 100% cotton king size sheets, so I can get yards and yards of fabric for less than a dollar a yard.
I've been working on developing an asthma-friendly bust support in my free time for years now and feel like some of my home brews resembled Roman silhouettes
with the tunics and chemises, could there have been further under garments like binders/bandeaus and loin cloths?? like seen in Roman bath house mosaics?? and if so, the binder/bandeau could have been extra support.
Regarding the location of lacing, and to help the understanding:
I've enjoyed sewing ever since I was a little one. And I used to be super skinny, really thin while now I am and have been a decade or more super fatty fat f a t fatty. Thus with my extensive experience in being various shapes and sizes, the lace up the front or back works well for the thin bodies while the side lacing works best for the bloaters and fattys. You're welcome. And for the record I am happy to eat well these days 🎉😂
Very interesting! I love seeing your examples immediately as you discuss the undergarment--as opposed to a style show at the end scenario. Nice job!
I really appreciate the primary source material you shared with us!
I've wondered about this. I've worn styles from the 1600s and 1700s when stays were the go-to bust support, so I wondered what people did before stays
Thanks. I am am medievalist and have always wondered about this.
Thank you for the video! It filled with so much good useful information. I've been wanting to incorporate more Edwardian wear into my wardrobe but I always needed more bust support because of my future plans and this is so helpful.
Also I feel like this in modern wear is more help than bras for a lot of people.
The "tight dress" kirtle could also have been a former outer layer dress that had gotten too worn/faded/moth-eaten to wear as an outer layer. And if found by archaeologists, would not be distinguishable from an outer layer. The Lengberg garment makes German Renaissance clothing make a lot more sense. The Lengberg laces up the side, the gowns lace in the front, and the Brustfleck is a "modesty panel" over the bust bags.
Love the supportive underdress idea! I am about to attempt my first cotehardie (though not my first historic clothing in general) so I've been watching your videos to hype myself up. Great video as always ☺️
I have always wondered this. I love this time frame and the style and fashion and it has always made me wonder how the support worked. My own wedding dress was inspired by the 15th century in terms of style with a folded over side side panel and I still love it. I have preserved it in the box since the wedding. The reception was where Jane Austin stayed with medieval frame work on the building. It was very cool.
Immediately as I watched this I thought- AGE! The older I get the more I need supportive shaping undergarments .
Wonderful video! Really useful, and thanks for all those links, they're really helpful!
I find the fitted sleeveless garments the most interesting, because we have something similar, rubáč, as a part of our traditional dress. It is simpler in construction though, being fully made out of rectangles with the body being just a tube you'd barely be able to fit into to get the bust support without lacing. No cups, really simple straps and two rectangles, one of them gathered. But we also know it's pre-9th century in origin, so it makes me question whether it's a really funny coincidence, or if we maybe somehow influenced the medieval ones.
And as a fun fact, rubáč is still worn by some on a daily basis.
Longer waist trainers offer a great amount of support to me. I have to wear two overlapping because commercial ones aren't long enough for me from underbust to hip. Corsettes & fitted over dresses / jackets also can work well with proper fitting. Just found your channel this morning! Liked & subscribed! 😁❤
I’m going to call all my bras “bust bags” from now on. Brilliant! 💕🐝💕
My aunt called them, "boulder holders"
@@susanramsay4189 Over-shoulder boulder holders, invented by Herr Titzling, according to the book 'Bust-Up: The Uplifting Tale of Otto Titzling', published in 1972.
I remember looking at the costuming for those old operas, and wondering about the metalic cones the opera singers used. I was like....that must hurt.
What a great sponsor for this video!
Past Daisy's really got our back (sometimes)!
I've loved Renaissance outfits since Jr High. I've made a couple chamises and found, for my history and lack of liking tighter clothes, that having a vest bodice that is slightly small I can lace up works great for me. I'm still looking for some sort of a corset so I don't have to lace and unlace each time.
Yaasss past self looking out for future self is the best 💯 this was great, thank you for all the information! And I have to say, you look happy and more grounded within yourself, it's a beautiful thing 💜 🤗
Past self has her moments! I'm so glad you enjoyed it, and I definitely do feel more grounded within myself, so I'm glad that comes across. There's been a lot of personal growth behind the scenes recently, and I look forward to continuing that journey!
@@DaisyViktoria I'm with you, definitely a crazy process but so worth the efforts!
Just found this. It’s my birthday and I’m wearing a linen kirtle with pockets that supports my DDs. I really need more fabric.
Yay!! Happy birthday!! 🎉🥳🎉
@@DaisyViktoria thanks!!
Oh my god you look so beautiful with this hair color! 👏🏽 👏🏽
as someone who prefers loose sportsbras to bras (or even materity bras that have no metal wire in them), I really like the topic of this video. It inspires me to make my own support which is all for me. ^^
I just found your channel and this was fascinating! I’m subscribing so I catch the next one.
I prefer to think that you've grown into the Lengberg inspired underdress. Shees, how many years does does it take a research ream to draft a pattern? You've reminded me how long it's been since the Lengberg discovery
the front lacing one looked really supportive! is it comfortable to wear for long periods?
This is really interesting.
I would really like to sew some versions of these as id like the lift and support o my not-full but large enough bust
I totally encourage that idea - they are so comfy! ♥️
Hans Holbein, the court painter of Henry V111, made many sketches, but the ones that interest the clothing historians are the ones showing the back and sides of dressed, which are rarely depicted in paintings. Based on this and other evidence, including Holbein and others portraits, the people at Historic Royal Palaces state, as reported in "Tudor Fashion" by Eleri Lynn, Yale Press in corporation with Historic Royal Palaces that "to achieve the softness of the décolletage...and to avoid the heaving bosoms of costume dramas...bodice boning must not rise above the bust and the fastenings for the stiffened layers must be at the back or sides, drawing the bust down and not pushing it up" (page 25)
Okay. You triggered me into wanting to know more about Lengberg Castle and the hidden vault of clothing. Is there a link I can use?
I wonder if you could make a lengberg bra version of a lazy corset?
Hi! you look beautiful! your purple hair so fun😂! I have the book Waisted Efforts, signed by Robert, from when I started needing undergarments for the gowns I was making. If anyone wants to buy it just let me know. I’m on the home stretch of my sewing life.
Very interested in this topic. I’ve had a lot of questions on my own channel and I haven’t really been able to answer them due to the face that my own experimentation hasn’t delved too much into this area as I don’t have much to support. I think I will direct any viewer questions to this video from now on.
Thanks Past Daisy!
I break period (12C) for cotehardies!! I’ve made them from polarfleece (allergic to wool) and garment leather albeit I left that one sleeveless.
Really interesting video. What materials do you use, how does that compare to what was available C12/C13, and what are the implications of this on the designs?
This was great. So informative
Question - do we know if these garments were worn under or over the standard smock?
Binding wraps?
Coming to this late ... Do you think that as the waists of fashion rose (late 1400's - 1550's) that the waists of the Lindbergh under-dresses would have risen as well?
ok, but how about when you wear your underdress laced in front under something that also laces in front? This will be visible and may be uncomfortable. Also your landberg has bust support shape more for today than XIV century 🤔
do you think making a supportive outer dress is a project someone with little experience drafting could do? ive wanted to make one for a while but im nervous to make my own pattern since the dress should be tight. ive made a shift without a pattern before but i use commercial patterns for everything else
I have seen it done, but it's important to manage expectations and give yourself grace with mockups! I recently oversaw a friend of mine, not so experienced in drafting, draft hers using the instructions I came up with for my tutorial, and she got it right away! I usually advise that dress 1 is not expected to be totally fitted but more of a step along the process toward getting to supportive - if it's better than expected, then that's a bonus. In the vast majority of my prior experience teaching newer sewists / costumers, especially with this type of dress, I've found that the most intimidating part is getting started. Remember, the sooner you make an imperfect one, the sooner you get better! Even the most experienced of us often need at least a mockup or two!
Use muslin as the professionals do.
very practical clothing
It comes up frequently? My History teachers never covered this.
Thank you for this information
I like your hair colorful but subtle.
Very good!
My biggest thing for bust support is the boob sweat. Like I can handle almost anything else but the sweat 😭
Tbh the skirtless lengberg might work for you with that, if you used something like linen or cotton. One drawback of most of the more modern fabric is it doesn't wick sweat very well. Perhaps you already have tried something like this, I hope you find something that works for you, boob sweat can be so annoying
Very lovely.🙏😍
Love this!
I am wondering if the last couple of dresses would be good under modern dresses??
After breastfeeding 5 babies, I am just having a hard time finding the support without underwire which I hate underwire.
I have read by one person that her version of the Lengberg bra worked well under modern clothes too, but I do not know anymore where that was.
Her version was cut higher too, covering more of the decollete.
@@johannageisel5390 thank you!
@@ashleighoverturf3599 I still don't know whether that was what I had in mind, but Katafalk has three posts on her blog about making her own Lengberg bra.
She also includes a pattern and pictures.
I will try to post the link below, but in a separate comment in case comments with links get automatically deleted on this channel.
Edit: Yup, comment with links vanished. You will have to use google.
@@johannageisel5390 thank you so much!
Katherine sews (YT channel) came up with a solution to this. She complained about similar things to you. She modified some vintage bra patterns. They were supportive without underwire. She filmed her process of making them.
OK good story. I bought a bra to push up and in. When I put it on, I was in shock. Hubby said I look beautiful. So we went out to sushi. I couldn’t even see my feet, but I am only a A- B cup! I couldn’t wait to get it off, I was sweaty and self conscious and so not myself. I am used to wearing sport bras. My husband also couldn’t wait to get it off either. A memory to keep always!
Really interesting.
♥️💕♥️
I doubt they did pleats but pretty neat!
Oh boy, a women's fashion issue I had no idea I cared about until now!
Thankyou so much beautiful lady friend 💓🧏
Do you have a pattern/tutorial for the dress from the 'Solving the issue of changing body size' section?
Side lacing: a maid would probably lace one. Or a mother/daughter.
Stumbled across this video and love all of the information and examples you presented!
Also, I will be honest and say some of the comments on here made me mad, so I want to leave a friendly reminder that you are lovely however you decide to appear/present yourself 🩵
Do you have any information on how breastfeeding was achieved with these types of period clothing? A hungry baby is very impatient.
In general, if you aren’t tight lacing, you should be able to just lift out and then tuck back in with no or minimal redo of lacing.
10:20
OMG, all the fantasy RPGs with the default underwear in the character creator turned out to be correct. :D
i think I might sew a bra/top like you showed but without a skirt and maybe front lacing instead of side lacing ...
I think people in the medieval ages had smaller breasts than people nowadays, at least smaller than me I guess 😅
I just hope it will work because tbh a bra can get pretty uncomfy and also it's not really fitting the style of that time
this is so interesting! as an afab nonbinary person, i like to wear historically inspired womenswear with binders, and i've always wondered what someone like me would have actually worn in the past. obviously gender was conceived and perceived very differently and they didn't have the terms we use now, but if someone born as a "woman" had wanted to flatten their chest, how would they have achieved that? i'm just learning to sew now and hoping to explore this idea in the future when i can make my own historical garments
Look towards eras that have a flatter fasionable bust shape, I'm thinking of bodied kirtles and early bodies/stays.
As another afab nonbinary, I recognise wanting to dress historically while wanting to minimize dysphoria. I am currently working on a pair of stays made with the elisabethan corset pattern generator.
This is a really good question, and I hope anyone with experience can chime in! I know that you can certainly flatten by the shape of the "tight" laced garments, similarly to the way binders flatten and redistribute. Rather than aiming to lift, I would approach it as aiming to redistribute to the flatter shape. That would be my first engineering / patterning focused thought for this era.
Oh I wanted to add too that some menswear from the late middle ages started to see chest padding as a fashionable silhouette, and I wonder if that could play in to sort of a middle ground area as you come together between flattening a larger chest vs padding a smaller one. Just a thought that could either fizzle out or could take us to some new ideas!
@@scouttyra i do have a 16th century style kirtle that i bought and it has some flattening effect even without the binder, so i'd definitely want to try making a similar garment. i love the silhouettes of that era
@@DaisyViktoria good ideas, thank you! i'll be looking into that chest padding in the menswear
It's amazing how beautiful you are in very simple older style clothing.
Acknowledging Art of the European Middle Ages, is important to figure out function and fashion. Women were not known, as often for their writing, their own Art (though some, are now known) -Education or writing for Women were more often for clergy, Nuns, or Royalty. Even into the Renaissance, it was often forbidden to sketch or paint, or sculpt a Woman nude - find images, even of Adam & Eve, and anatomy is questionable.
(I have degrees in Art, and Education) The recovery of Greek and Roman sculpture, by the Renaissance helped some Artists to avoid the ban on viewing Female anatomy, as guide,…or, as one of my college art history teachers said, “If male Artists had intimacy with Women, and could remember…”
And, what words were used in literature, or parlance for undergarments and anatomy those centuries ago? When did “boobs”, or “the girls” arrive in common language?
This is a fine thesis on garments - appreciation!
Thanks very much lovely lady friend 💓🧏
Inspired to make some shifts!!
I suspect the side lacing clothing was for people who could afford servants to help them dress.
hold on, are you swedish? Or do you live in sweden? Hejsan svejsan is such a swede thing haha
damn you are a genius
You could pass for my oldest child’s twin sister, no joke! Voice is a little different, but not by much! She is 45 now.
OMG I love my twins!! 🥰
ONE EUNUCH HOLDING EACH ORB!!
I've been interested in medieval history since I was 10 and in women's breasts since I was 11, so this is definitely an interesting video. It answers a lot of questions I only had partial answers to. (I mean answers about clothing, lol. I'm way older now and have most of the answers about breasts.)
How did stone-age women support their busts?
Mercy’s unite!
Mercy's are amazing! 😍
I don’t know why we all don’t still wear clothes like these
I'm a man and I enjoy this as I enjoy learning about the female body .
The dresses are pretty .
And I love your colored hair tips .
I find stays actually to be more comfortable than modern bras.
Here as someone who likes to write stories and wants to sound like a complete moron. So, thank you. 😁
They use corsets and bodice.
The one that looks like a 'bra' looks like a full slip to me.
No makeup just beauty
Don't know if you like to know, but there is a theory that the era you're attracted too ((like how your attracted too Medieval)) is where you spent your past life
Check on your past lifetimes. Considering how much time Souls take between lifetimes, I can believe you had at least 2 lifetimes during that period and possibly 2 more during the Renaissance period. We bring with us what we have learned and experienced from the past.
3:10 - Yes, Europe and, more importantly, upper classes of Europe. Others just wore glorified sacs.
I still think the best support a woman can have is my hands! 😛
Really enjoyed the information. On a more personal level, please lose the false eyelashes. They're too large and dark for your facial features and are not too attractive.
to be honest, i feel a bit scared by them. of course, you do you, but thing is, you do not see your face as often as others do, and in not-party or nightclub situation this kind of makeup looks just - scary for me :) and distracting form topic. maybe you have no eyelashes of your own, or they are invisible, but then, maybe, just maybe, try a lil bit smaller fake eyelashes? just to be not scary - but if you need to be, then of course go for it. if aposematic pattern scares away danger, then it works. not that i am danger... i hope. :D
Your eyelids must be exhausted from trying to lift all that plastic. How many layers of plastic eyelashes did you glue on?
Great video, but could be greatly shortened.