I got a new road bike for Christmas 2023 and the bars were off center just a bit so that it was causing back pain on longer rides from being leaned over to one side. No change in saddle position, just centered the bars with a tape measurer and done. Great tips!
Got a size smaller frame (than recommend for my height) after a fit. That was key, as the recommend size just felt wrong, despite the advice and theory. Afterwards moved from 172.5 to 165mm cranks also - that made a big difference.
I wish I'd seen this last week! I've literally just today finished setting up my bike where my reach was too long and I was sitting on the nose of the saddle, and couldn't properly reach the hoods. New (shorter) stem, saddle moved forward, bish bash bosh!
@@gcn I think it's finally where I need it to be. But it's taken a fair bit of tinkering, and TH-cam watching (thank you for that!) to get to this point. Just don't tell my wife that I've noticed the cleats have damaged our hardwood floor 😬
I used to ride a TT like position, but for a more relaxed yet powerful stance on the cycle i relaxed things and looked at everything, saddle - reach - saddle height - shoes & width - bars - lever position - you name it i got it to a place whereby im comfortable for hours on the bike instead of for a 10 TT or a blast round my local circuit etc..and as much as its cost a bit im happier and more comfortable to go faster when i want to 👍
I agree with some of this but hand placement on hoods and handle bar is complete nonsense and shouldn’t be relied upon for a good fit. Hands will naturally move around as even the best fitment will lead to a “sore” hand at some point and you naturally move to a different position, you also naturally move around as power increases but yes you should be able to “hand shake” comfortably with lever at some point to control the bike. But to say ou should be there all the time? if I want to sit up more and relax I will, the more power I put out the more extreme the position gets till eventually I’m either in the drops or have a 90 degree bend in the arm and flat back.
There seems to be an assumption in this that we are symmetrical. We’re not. Legs are usually different lengths, feet arms, the bike may be symmetrical but there is a degree of compromise required to get a good fit. For example better the short leg doesn’t over extend than the longer one doesn’t fully extend (I think that makes sense). Also important for cleat positioning
My roadbike is slammed, can ride that thing comfortable for 4 to 5 hours. My touringbike is not, more relaxed geometry also and not that fast, but more comfortable to ride for 8 hours when I go touring on it. Different horses for different courses.
What I'd like to see a bike fitter clearly explain is that there are three basic curvatures to a saddle that define its shape: 1) the longitudinal (back-to-front) (i.e. flat or curved saddle); 2) the lateral (i.e., sitting on a log or a flat board); 3) the shape viewed from above (e.g. T-shaped with narrow nose or V-shaped). Once you know what you need along these dimensions based on past comfort or even riding style, pelvic rotation etc., this radically simplifies how to narrow down your choice of saddle. Different manufacturers have different saddle selection strategies, but for the basic consumer, they may not be clear. It may not matter much if a saddle has a large or small cutout if the basic shape is not right. The recommendation to "just try it" is not helpful when there are 50 saddles to choose from. You need to know which saddles to exclude and knowing the basic shape is very helpful, just as is measuring the width of the pelvis.
Bike fit needs to be personalized and for the specific purpose. How long you've been riding and your weight, particularly your torso/arm weight make a difference, as does the ability to regularly get out of the saddle. It's surprising how many amateur cycists can't/don't feel safe out of the saddle! A little tip for numb hands is to NOT tilt your levers up excessively, try have them close to horizontal, this also makes it easier to brake on the drops.
Yeah. Being an aged git I realised a couple of rides back that I have shrunk over the last N years; in height, alas, if not in girth - whence neck and shoulder pain, and much riding with my hands on the tops of the bars. A couple of days ago I swapped out my 9.5 cm stem for a 7 cm, and while I *think* I was more comfortable afterwards I might yet go back another centimetre. And since my cleats have been clicking and clacking of late I reckon they're due for a change as well. BTW: re saddles, a lot of people have legs of different lengths, 11 cm in my case, and plastic-armature saddles are utter hell to ride on since all the weight acts through a small patch on the shorter-leg side. A leather saddle may be viewed as a 'dad' thing but it will adapt far faster than any plastic saddle under the sun.
Question here - It’s not uncommon to have on purpose different cleat positions on both feet due to dissymetry. Why isn't it the same for other parts of the bike? For example, a lever slightly higher or lower than the other one, slightly offsetting your handlebar, or (why not) different size cranks?
One of the reasons is because your locked in with the cleats so you’re feet can’t naturally adjust. The rest of the body is free to move and adjust as and where it can. This is we’re bike fits start to become blurred. You need to listen to your body and adjust bit by bit to a point that suits you but a fit may MAY get you there quicker. Or it’s a problem you may have to put up with
This is a valid remark. If one arm is longer than the other, why not move one STI further away. If one shoulder is broader, then put the handelbars off-center. But my guess would be that this is rare, whilst misplaced STIs, handlebars etc. are quite commonplace.
@@SrFedericoI do have one arm slightly longer (I think many do) and have moved the lever a few mm out. Since your hands should be just floating on the hoods or bars when the saddle setback is correct, it doesn't make a huge difference, but may be a worthwhile tweak.
@@bengt_axle Limb length discrepancy and different sized feet are quite common, a good fitter will and should know this, and not say bullshit like this "expert". This video is full of false claims and missinformation.
@@66mikkimYes, exactly. My entire non-dominant side (arms, legs, feet, hands) is slightly smaller. An orthopaedic surgeon told me they see discrepancies of a few mm all the time. Over time, one side of the body becomes tighter, can result in a rotated pelvis, but most do not even notice it. Stretching and strengthening exercises help. Australian fitter Steve Hogg is a real expert on this and has provided me with a lot of tips on his website.
You mentioned cleat markings on shoes may differ. What would you use as the reference point when putting new cleats on your new shoes? Measure from the toe, heel or from the cleat bolt holes?
I FOUND THS A GREAT VIDEO makes fitment really easy but l d like to add one rotation of the bars and levers too l know level looks great but not always comfortable tho not too much either making grabbing the drops impossible
I have some very small fingers and i can't grab the brake levers, i'm in shimano 105, I tried to bring them closer with the setting screw but it is still to far. Do you have any solution ? At 3:07 does the levers should always be like this? exactly parallel to the ground with the handlebar ? It is not what I see on every picture, is that a problem?
i am not a pro-cyclist, so...i am having a hard time comprehending why whether cleats are worn out is a "bike fit" mistake?? and it is so important the expert put it as point 2
I would suspect the list is largely based on how often it comes up as a solution to an issue. Like he gets a lot of questions regarding knee or hip joint pain and the solution is not to adjust anything about the bike itself, but the cleats.
@@Tantewilliejawhat? At least with spd sl this is complete nonsense. What is wrong with people? Have you ever ridden a clipless pedal? Sorry, but I had to adapt to the quick fire of the video.
This misses three other key measures: fore/aft saddle position, fore/aft cleat position and bar height. Cleat wear is not a fit issue; it goes with saying that you replace cleats when they wear out.
The thing with the cleats is the thought of feeling the difference after changeing them. It can be so annoying if you tried but can't get them to feel like being in the same position as the previous. For that reason - if the cleats feel perfectly positioned - I tend to not change them too early even though they are worn out and wiggly.
What are the next 5? I'd suggest that if the stem is too short, a rider may move their saddle forward to shorten the reach. So what is the correct saddle fore-aft position? Plumb bob from front of knee to pedal spindle is only a starting point. Good luck!
No, you definitely should not move the saddle just to shorten the reach. Setback is all about balancing the upper body. There is no biomechanical basis for "KOPS". The correct way to set up the saddle fore and aft is to set it at the horizontal position that allows your hands to just float on the hoods or tops of the bar when pedaling moderately hard. Bernard "Blaireau" Hineaut famously described this as "being able to play the piano". When you pedal, some of your weight is taken off your hands because your pelvis is further back and cantilevers your upper body weight. Sliding your saddle back will take weight off your hands; forward will give you more power but more pressure on the hands. The stem is always chosen last, to just allow the hands to fall on the bars in the right place, after the saddle has been set up. If you cannot reach the bars with a stem of 70mm or more, your ROAD bike frame is too big (mountain and gravel can have shorter stems). That being said, some people can move the saddle forwards a few mm and still maintain a good balance because they push down harder on the pedals or their abs are strong.
Way too simplistic. Saddle not comfortable, try loads??!! WHAT! Any decent fitter will tell you that saddle discomfort is often the result of a poor fit so get that right first before throwing money at saddles. And you wont get anywhere near it by just sticking yiur heel on your pedal. Go and see a decent fitter, get the right geometry and setup for the riding you do, then sort your saddle out. Love GCN content, not this one, sorry guys.
Speaking of saddle comfort, I always thought it is “fine” to feel discomfort and numbness after 60-80 km non-stop pedaling. Should I consider changing a saddle in this case? Seriously 😅
You should be able to ride without any numbness, even if you're doing 5 hours of cycling everyday, like a pro. The only pain you might feel when first starting is soreness under the tuberosities (sit bones), but this typically goes away with good shorts and after a few rides. Your TVA should and lower abs should be contracted slightly when pedaling.
One thing that worries me about bike fit is the lack of technical content about it. Everything is behind a product or "talk to an expert". There is only one book on the subject.
Hey, thanks for the comment! One of the many reasons for this, is that everyone is different. This means that there really is no "one book for all" approach as there are so many variables to consider! cheers 👍
I don’t know why it’s taken me so long to realize I can use the whole saddle rail travel, but I can finally use the hoods and not feel overstretched! 👍🏾
I really like to learn about bikes because it’s a childhood memories even though I can’t get no more bikes because they are too expensive now. Just lovely to watch.
I can't agree with the seemingly dictatorial instruction "your hands should be on the hoods". Some times I want to ride for prolonged periods on the hoods; sometimes I ride on the ramps and sometimes (esp up long hills) I ride on the centre of the tops. That's the whole way drops are designed - to let you move your position to suit what you are doing. A more sensible way of putting things would be to say your stem should be too long to let you ride comfortably on the hoods when you want to.
Not related to this specific episode, but might turn into a future GCN episode...bicycle steering behaviour th-cam.com/video/9cNmUNHSBac/w-d-xo.htmlsi=eLu2BLWZokLyrUXs
@@gcn If you're having actual comfort issues on your bike, study the concepts of bike fit and apply them to your situation. Make whatever adjustments seem appropriate short of replacing parts. Then, if that hasn't worked, go for a bike fit. Don't spend a dime on new parts until you have that accomplished by someone who knows what he or she is doing. Then make one change at a time so you'll know in the end what actually worked. Assuming you're on the right size frame, odds are the parts you need are either a saddle or a stem.
@@rangersmith4652 I don’t really see the need for bike fits and I’d never buy a bike without sitting in one but many do and if you’re unsure your best to start with a fit before you even buy the bike. Maybe even more essential now with a lot of online sales. But yes you’re right many just need to listen to there bodies it’s really not that hard but seeing as many can even change a tyre maybe that asking to much.
Have you made any of these adjustments to your bike? 🚲
I got a new road bike for Christmas 2023 and the bars were off center just a bit so that it was causing back pain on longer rides from being leaned over to one side. No change in saddle position, just centered the bars with a tape measurer and done. Great tips!
@wertacus nicely done!
Got a size smaller frame (than recommend for my height) after a fit. That was key, as the recommend size just felt wrong, despite the advice and theory. Afterwards moved from 172.5 to 165mm cranks also - that made a big difference.
I wish I'd seen this last week! I've literally just today finished setting up my bike where my reach was too long and I was sitting on the nose of the saddle, and couldn't properly reach the hoods. New (shorter) stem, saddle moved forward, bish bash bosh!
sounds like you've got this dialled in!
@@gcn I think it's finally where I need it to be. But it's taken a fair bit of tinkering, and TH-cam watching (thank you for that!) to get to this point. Just don't tell my wife that I've noticed the cleats have damaged our hardwood floor 😬
ah, bikes and floors can cause many an argument!
I used to ride a TT like position, but for a more relaxed yet powerful stance on the cycle i relaxed things and looked at everything, saddle - reach - saddle height - shoes & width - bars - lever position - you name it i got it to a place whereby im comfortable for hours on the bike instead of for a 10 TT or a blast round my local circuit etc..and as much as its cost a bit im happier and more comfortable to go faster when i want to 👍
I agree with some of this but hand placement on hoods and handle bar is complete nonsense and shouldn’t be relied upon for a good fit. Hands will naturally move around as even the best fitment will lead to a “sore” hand at some point and you naturally move to a different position, you also naturally move around as power increases but yes you should be able to “hand shake” comfortably with lever at some point to control the bike. But to say ou should be there all the time? if I want to sit up more and relax I will, the more power I put out the more extreme the position gets till eventually I’m either in the drops or have a 90 degree bend in the arm and flat back.
There seems to be an assumption in this that we are symmetrical. We’re not. Legs are usually different lengths, feet arms, the bike may be symmetrical but there is a degree of compromise required to get a good fit. For example better the short leg doesn’t over extend than the longer one doesn’t fully extend (I think that makes sense). Also important for cleat positioning
My roadbike is slammed, can ride that thing comfortable for 4 to 5 hours.
My touringbike is not, more relaxed geometry also and not that fast, but more comfortable to ride for 8 hours when I go touring on it.
Different horses for different courses.
Well said!
What I'd like to see a bike fitter clearly explain is that there are three basic curvatures to a saddle that define its shape: 1) the longitudinal (back-to-front) (i.e. flat or curved saddle); 2) the lateral (i.e., sitting on a log or a flat board); 3) the shape viewed from above (e.g. T-shaped with narrow nose or V-shaped). Once you know what you need along these dimensions based on past comfort or even riding style, pelvic rotation etc., this radically simplifies how to narrow down your choice of saddle. Different manufacturers have different saddle selection strategies, but for the basic consumer, they may not be clear. It may not matter much if a saddle has a large or small cutout if the basic shape is not right. The recommendation to "just try it" is not helpful when there are 50 saddles to choose from. You need to know which saddles to exclude and knowing the basic shape is very helpful, just as is measuring the width of the pelvis.
This sounds like we should try and get an expert from the saddle industry to come along and talk saddles!
Bike fit needs to be personalized and for the specific purpose. How long you've been riding and your weight, particularly your torso/arm weight make a difference, as does the ability to regularly get out of the saddle. It's surprising how many amateur cycists can't/don't feel safe out of the saddle! A little tip for numb hands is to NOT tilt your levers up excessively, try have them close to horizontal, this also makes it easier to brake on the drops.
I’d like to see a similar breakdown for gravel bikes and mountain bikes, as clearly there are some differences. Nice video tho lads, thanks.
for grabel bikes its more or less the same
Yeah. Being an aged git I realised a couple of rides back that I have shrunk over the last N years; in height, alas, if not in girth - whence neck and shoulder pain, and much riding with my hands on the tops of the bars. A couple of days ago I swapped out my 9.5 cm stem for a 7 cm, and while I *think* I was more comfortable afterwards I might yet go back another centimetre.
And since my cleats have been clicking and clacking of late I reckon they're due for a change as well.
BTW: re saddles, a lot of people have legs of different lengths, 11 cm in my case, and plastic-armature saddles are utter hell to ride on since all the weight acts through a small patch on the shorter-leg side. A leather saddle may be viewed as a 'dad' thing but it will adapt far faster than any plastic saddle under the sun.
Question here - It’s not uncommon to have on purpose different cleat positions on both feet due to dissymetry. Why isn't it the same for other parts of the bike? For example, a lever slightly higher or lower than the other one, slightly offsetting your handlebar, or (why not) different size cranks?
One of the reasons is because your locked in with the cleats so you’re feet can’t naturally adjust. The rest of the body is free to move and adjust as and where it can. This is we’re bike fits start to become blurred. You need to listen to your body and adjust bit by bit to a point that suits you but a fit may MAY get you there quicker. Or it’s a problem you may have to put up with
This is a valid remark. If one arm is longer than the other, why not move one STI further away. If one shoulder is broader, then put the handelbars off-center. But my guess would be that this is rare, whilst misplaced STIs, handlebars etc. are quite commonplace.
@@SrFedericoI do have one arm slightly longer (I think many do) and have moved the lever a few mm out. Since your hands should be just floating on the hoods or bars when the saddle setback is correct, it doesn't make a huge difference, but may be a worthwhile tweak.
@@bengt_axle Limb length discrepancy and different sized feet are quite common, a good fitter will and should know this, and not say bullshit like this "expert". This video is full of false claims and missinformation.
@@66mikkimYes, exactly. My entire non-dominant side (arms, legs, feet, hands) is slightly smaller. An orthopaedic surgeon told me they see discrepancies of a few mm all the time. Over time, one side of the body becomes tighter, can result in a rotated pelvis, but most do not even notice it. Stretching and strengthening exercises help. Australian fitter Steve Hogg is a real expert on this and has provided me with a lot of tips on his website.
What do people think of shortening the stem by 10mm vs shortening handlebar reach (new handlebar) by 10mm?
You mentioned cleat markings on shoes may differ. What would you use as the reference point when putting new cleats on your new shoes? Measure from the toe, heel or from the cleat bolt holes?
I FOUND THS A GREAT VIDEO makes fitment really easy but l d like to add one rotation of the bars and levers too l know level looks great but not always comfortable tho not too much either making grabbing the drops impossible
Very insightful, especially about the hoods and handlebars. Jake is always a winner!
Hi! thanks for the comment, glad you found it useful. What other videos would you like to see including Jake? cheers!
How do you fix pins and needles in the hands? Is it stem length, handlebar height, something else?
Depends what's causing it.
I have some very small fingers and i can't grab the brake levers, i'm in shimano 105, I tried to bring them closer with the setting screw but it is still to far. Do you have any solution ?
At 3:07 does the levers should always be like this? exactly parallel to the ground with the handlebar ? It is not what I see on every picture, is that a problem?
Do i need to raise my saddle after slamming the stem? Did this a week or so ago, not sure about the position yet.
i am not a pro-cyclist, so...i am having a hard time comprehending why whether cleats are worn out is a "bike fit" mistake?? and it is so important the expert put it as point 2
I would suspect the list is largely based on how often it comes up as a solution to an issue. Like he gets a lot of questions regarding knee or hip joint pain and the solution is not to adjust anything about the bike itself, but the cleats.
@@Frag-ile ahh...thats right, thanks
Worn cleats will result in a lot of play in the front of the cleat which can cause all sorts of issues
Complete nonsense. This point made him look like a complete fool. He has no idea how cleats work. Laughable.
@@Tantewilliejawhat? At least with spd sl this is complete nonsense. What is wrong with people? Have you ever ridden a clipless pedal? Sorry, but I had to adapt to the quick fire of the video.
First thing I change on any bike new to me is the stem, they're nearly always too long for me.
This misses three other key measures: fore/aft saddle position, fore/aft cleat position and bar height. Cleat wear is not a fit issue; it goes with saying that you replace cleats when they wear out.
The thing with the cleats is the thought of feeling the difference after changeing them. It can be so annoying if you tried but can't get them to feel like being in the same position as the previous. For that reason - if the cleats feel perfectly positioned - I tend to not change them too early even though they are worn out and wiggly.
What are the next 5? I'd suggest that if the stem is too short, a rider may move their saddle forward to shorten the reach. So what is the correct saddle fore-aft position? Plumb bob from front of knee to pedal spindle is only a starting point. Good luck!
No, you definitely should not move the saddle just to shorten the reach. Setback is all about balancing the upper body. There is no biomechanical basis for "KOPS". The correct way to set up the saddle fore and aft is to set it at the horizontal position that allows your hands to just float on the hoods or tops of the bar when pedaling moderately hard. Bernard "Blaireau" Hineaut famously described this as "being able to play the piano". When you pedal, some of your weight is taken off your hands because your pelvis is further back and cantilevers your upper body weight. Sliding your saddle back will take weight off your hands; forward will give you more power but more pressure on the hands. The stem is always chosen last, to just allow the hands to fall on the bars in the right place, after the saddle has been set up. If you cannot reach the bars with a stem of 70mm or more, your ROAD bike frame is too big (mountain and gravel can have shorter stems). That being said, some people can move the saddle forwards a few mm and still maintain a good balance because they push down harder on the pedals or their abs are strong.
Yes
Hi!
@@gcn 👋
Way too simplistic. Saddle not comfortable, try loads??!! WHAT! Any decent fitter will tell you that saddle discomfort is often the result of a poor fit so get that right first before throwing money at saddles. And you wont get anywhere near it by just sticking yiur heel on your pedal. Go and see a decent fitter, get the right geometry and setup for the riding you do, then sort your saddle out. Love GCN content, not this one, sorry guys.
Agree, usually the saddle discomfort is not because of the saddle! It is because of the wrong body position meaning the geometry.
Speaking of saddle comfort, I always thought it is “fine” to feel discomfort and numbness after 60-80 km non-stop pedaling. Should I consider changing a saddle in this case? Seriously 😅
You should be able to ride without any numbness, even if you're doing 5 hours of cycling everyday, like a pro. The only pain you might feel when first starting is soreness under the tuberosities (sit bones), but this typically goes away with good shorts and after a few rides. Your TVA should and lower abs should be contracted slightly when pedaling.
Not necessarily, get a good bike fit. Preferably not from that guy, he is talkin shit.
One thing that worries me about bike fit is the lack of technical content about it. Everything is behind a product or "talk to an expert". There is only one book on the subject.
Hey, thanks for the comment! One of the many reasons for this, is that everyone is different. This means that there really is no "one book for all" approach as there are so many variables to consider! cheers 👍
There loads of technical content about bike fitting - Go to cade media’s channel and search “bike fit Tuesdays” thank me later.. 😉
Just like everthing else on the world like sports, medicine, physical therapy, psychology...
I don’t know why it’s taken me so long to realize I can use the whole saddle rail travel, but I can finally use the hoods and not feel overstretched! 👍🏾
If you're moving your saddle to reach your bars you need a bike fitting!!
I really like to learn about bikes because it’s a childhood memories even though I can’t get no more bikes because they are too expensive now. Just lovely to watch.
This honestly might be the most useless video on bike fit ever produced.
Well said!
And full of false statements. That dude is clearly no Expert!
I can't agree with the seemingly dictatorial instruction "your hands should be on the hoods". Some times I want to ride for prolonged periods on the hoods; sometimes I ride on the ramps and sometimes (esp up long hills) I ride on the centre of the tops.
That's the whole way drops are designed - to let you move your position to suit what you are doing.
A more sensible way of putting things would be to say your stem should be too long to let you ride comfortably on the hoods when you want to.
All I heard was "clipped in..." ... injuries" 😂
What about those, who ride without brake/shifter levers and clipless pedals?
it'd be great if you can expand on the saddle height, inclination, and length
Not related to this specific episode, but might turn into a future GCN episode...bicycle steering behaviour
th-cam.com/video/9cNmUNHSBac/w-d-xo.htmlsi=eLu2BLWZokLyrUXs
saw wattage bazooka in background lol
Ollie needs to iron his jumper or he might take the GCN crown for most wrinkly outfit
have you forgotten about Si?!
Don't buy 2 of the same saddles. ;)
Koo koo koo
The biggest mistake is NOT spending lots of money to support the industry.
What would you say is the best area to spend your money on?
@@gcn If you're having actual comfort issues on your bike, study the concepts of bike fit and apply them to your situation. Make whatever adjustments seem appropriate short of replacing parts. Then, if that hasn't worked, go for a bike fit. Don't spend a dime on new parts until you have that accomplished by someone who knows what he or she is doing. Then make one change at a time so you'll know in the end what actually worked. Assuming you're on the right size frame, odds are the parts you need are either a saddle or a stem.
@@rangersmith4652 I don’t really see the need for bike fits and I’d never buy a bike without sitting in one but many do and if you’re unsure your best to start with a fit before you even buy the bike. Maybe even more essential now with a lot of online sales.
But yes you’re right many just need to listen to there bodies it’s really not that hard but seeing as many can even change a tyre maybe that asking to much.
talk one at a time