@@ProductionJournal I'm only a half hour in and I am enjoying your critique. I feel the exact same way about the game. I love playing it. Awesome 👍. You've got a subscriber in me.
@@gibbs615 love how in season 2 even the smallest dialogue could cause the story to change like for example if you say Waller owes you then you could either free Selena put the pact in jail or .. something else
Actually they want to make a S3 after Wolf Amoung Us S2, I don't know if they gonna use some of the previous ideas, for S3 the plan was include Dick Grayson and Ra's al ghul and after de dead of Dick parent's the moral dilemma is gonna What if Batman could revive people who lost in the past, and who is gonna guide Dick, like a Moral Robin or more Brutal, also rive Lucius Fox or not ?
That brilliant "date" scene with John also has a bit where he talks about how everything made sense to him in the asylum, but the outside world is far more chaotic and intimidating. That may explain - within the world of the story - why he had such a stark change in self-assurance
The thing I really love about the Villain ending with Joker, is that he wanted a relationship with Bruce so bad, to be together “forever” in some way that he fully realizes the only way they can have a permanent relationship, is for him to be Bruce’s nemesis. Because then they’ll get to fight forever, even though John hates Bruce that hatred stems from some sick kind of love/obsession. “I’ll be the knife if your side until the end of time…” that is really what he wants, and he’ll do anything to be the perfect villain. Knowing Joker, as a villain, that’s terrifying. We’ve already seen the ramifications of Jokers actions, especially when that plight is personal
I really love that take. "Someone like you...could never really be friends...with someone like ME" - as you have perfectly put it, he knows he'll never be a permanent part of Bruce's life. But Bruce is all he's got. So if he can't remain his friend, he'll become his problem. Something that will force them together forever, and it's a bit of a feedback loop there where he'll gradually come to hate Bruce more and more through his villainy but he can't bear to really hurt him because he means so much to him. Thank you for commenting! Made my day.
I agree with the final fight with Joker and Bruce being more personal in the Villain path than the fight with Joker and Batman with the Vigilante version, that last moment after their fight made me feel emotional. I really love the Vigilante path for feeling different. It seems his desire to be a “vigilante” doesn’t come from a place of good, but rather a place of wanting revenge and feeling that being like Batman would give him a way to channel that violence. He appreciates Bruce’s trust of him in the funhouse and on the bridge, but he doesn’t really get inspired to be like Batman until Waller tries to kill him on the bridge after he refuses to let her have the virus. We see in the vigilante version that he is disgusted by the Agency and their methods, chanelling his hatred for Waller over everything else and letting it overpower any goodwill he was being taught by Bruce. That build up to him finally snapping in the chemical plant was incredible to me, with him losing his faith in Batman after blindly believing that he is following his methods and claiming Batman to be a hypocrite that mirrors Waller. As the player, I really wanted to try to save him, but the game makes it clear that he is slipping away, and despite Waller being an enemy (I also prefer being able to confront her over her crimes in the Vigilante version than letting her skate off for it in the Villain version) we see that Joker is clearly the dangerous one after kidnapping her and previously impulsively throwing bombs and blowing up a building to get Waller which caused Batman to get injured. And that moment where he goes off and murders the three agents who were about to arrest him, and he goes “It’s Joker!” made my mouth drop the first time. You can see in Batman’s eyes and on his face that he was just astounded and disappointed in how far he had fallen, sad that his friend is no longer there before their final fight begins. I just loved their dynamic in that path. Telltale overall did a fantastic job with both routes, I remember them announcing it to be “their most ambitious episode yet” and they were right, they truly made the choices MATTER.
Adding to this; I love the Vigilante route for how it wraps up everyone else Waller gets to be an antagonist, the Pact become the SS (paying off that detail) and ngl it just felt more conclusive to the story as a whole
While I think the villain ending is phenomenal as well, I think that the vigilante ending is a better conclusion to John’s arc. I feel like the villain ending loses some of the ambiguity of John’s character and his relationship with Bruce had. Throughout the game up until Episode 4, I never really got the feeling like John was a bad person. The only times I remember him reveling in violence or criminality was when he was with the pact, but if his relationships with Bruce and Harley have shown us anything, its that John desperately wants to be validated and accepted, so he likely only acted that way to gain their approval. The villain ending to me doesn’t really feel like Joker so much as it feels like John trying to be Joker. They way John presents himself is so grandiose that it becomes apparent that he is doing so for Bruce’s sake. Even though their relationship has been permanently ruined, John still seeks Bruce’s validation as an equal. He even says to Bruce something along the lines of, “Be the hero I need you to be.” This ending still works since ultimately he is still trying to get Bruce to validate him, but this aspect of his character is a bit more meaningful in the vigilante ending. Because Bruce and John’s relationship is the most important part of the game, I feel like keeping this dynamic in tact is very important. In the vigilante ending, John feels more like himself, and thus his desire for Bruce’s approval feels more appropriate. This further highlights the tragedy of the character, as the transition of him becoming Joker is more gradual. He is tormented by his inability to live up to Bruce’s expectations, and he begins to bottle up the violent tendencies that he lets loose in the villain ending. John becoming Joker is not quite as much of a snap as it is a slow descent. That is, until the very end of the vigilante ending, where that final snap is much more meaningful. As I said before, when John becomes Joker in the villain ending it feels like John is playing a character, but in the vigilante ending it is clear that has completely lost control. He is at the point where he can’t even speak; all he can do is laugh. Once he gets passed this, John practically lays out what his whole character arc has been.... “I was so busy looking at you, admiring you, wanting to be like you... Be loved by you... I lost myself, but not anymore!” By the end of the villain ending, he in a sense hasn’t changed because his entire world still revolves around Bruce and Harley. In the vigilante ending though, he has finally outgrown them. He no longer cares for Harley, and while he still admires Bruce, he has come to see that he can’t be him. “I really wanted to be a hero, y’know? But I just can’t!” I think a great example of the fundamental difference between the two Joker’s is their final laugh. Villain Joker’s final laugh is a loud, hysterical laugh fitting of his completely unhinged nature, while Vigilante Joker’s final laugh retains John’s subdued, nervous laughter. Both endings are phenomenal, but I feel like the vigilante ending better suited the character dynamics they set up with John. Sorry if this was a little hard to follow, I’m very tired so it’s kinda difficult for me to formulate my thoughts.
I’m someone who preferred the vigilante ending as well. It wrapped up Bruce’s and Johns relationship in a way that satisfyingly exemplified Johns character arc (of trying his best for Bruce and Harley, but ultimately, his nature cannot be changed.) Since their dynamic is the heart of this game, Jokers slow descent and resolve by the end of the vigilante route was so complex and fascinating, as opposed to the villain ending. The villain ending makes more sense if you prefer that neat knot of “classic joker” being the nemesis of Bruce, while the vigilante joker is more a result of Bruce’s actions. More complexity there that goes unexplored within other bat media. Anyways, great analysis!
I liked the corrupt and evil versions of the Waynes. Versions of them who are more than just "Good people trying to help their city who get killed by a mugger in front of their son" are welcome. It's why I like the Flashpoint universe where only Bruce was killed, Thomas became Batman and Martha, having been driven insane by Bruce's death became The Joker. The Telltale version also makes Batman and Vicki Vale / Lady Arkham similar since both their parents got murdered but where Bruce wanted to stop what happened to him from happening to anyone else and when he found out the truth about his family also wanted to make up for their crimes Vicki's family the Arkhams were murdered on Thomas Wayne's orders causing her to be put in foster care and eventually be adopted by the abusive Vales who only adopted her for the money which is unfortunately something a lot of foster parents do in real life. It didn't justify the things she and the Children of Arkham did to Bruce and Gotham as a whole but it explained them.
I genuinely respect and understand why you didn't enjoy all of Vigilante Joker's arc. I'm one of the many that loved and prefer that route. To provide a respectable counterpoint to why I think John went to "Be a Hero of Justice" so quickly made some degree of sense 1. He did mention how he admired and fanboyed about Batman. 2. The John bringing you the laptop (if you sold out Catwoman) was I think Telltale's biggest hint to the possibility John could be an ally to Batman. But I agree with you that the Catwoman scene had vastly better development and impact overall. 3. He enjoyed how chaotic and brutal Batman is and John saw it as a way to be his chaotic self, while also being liked and admired for it himself. 4. I think upon learning Bruce was Batman it reinforced his determination to be friends with Bruce however he could even doing something very contradictory to his very nature. 5. This route showed the last vestige of "John Doe" trying to please others and being dependent on others guiding himself. You did bring up a decent point that it wasn't fully explored or hinted enough that he could be explored enough. And I respect your preference to the Villain version. If anything it shows even more how well Telltale nailed doing two versions of Joker simultaneously. At least I am glad Season 3 is in the works and if Telltale really wants things to be kept quiet and they're working hard on Wolf among us and Batman; I am hoping they triple down on everything they built up from this season and keep with their original ideas of Ra's al Ghul and Scarecrow as their next rogues gallery.
I'm not gonna lie at first I didn't know how to feel how they switched the roles around with Joker and Harley just because I'm so used to Joker being the dominant one but then after I came around to enjoying it as it was very different but it was done in a good way
OK but how did you not bring up the fact that they created the single greatest depiction of the Batmobile ever??? Not a mini tank. Not a jet engine on wheels. Just a superb car that looks stunning and moves fast. And it’s transformations are badass too
Joker was never trying to be "good" guy in the vigilante route He was just worshipping his Idol Bruce/Batman. It was never about good intentions with him lol it made total sense If anything during the Vigilante route you can see he is more crazy and impulsive. His Joker reveal at Ace Chemicals is honestly the best and the laugh...just perfect I felt more satisfied knowing that My Bruce and John are still friends at the end of the game. He's just not meant to be a Hero thats all. He even said it himself and that was the entire point of the episode
I'm really suprised these games are so underrated. I just heard of them a few weeks ago and I fell in love immediatly. Rarely been so invested in a game. They are some of the best Batman content ever. I really hope, now that Telltale is back, we will get to see a third season. Besides that, how were these games received at their launch?
From what I know, it got mostly good reviews from Telltale lovers (and people in general), but some of the hardcore Batman lovers were upset that the story wasn't how it's always been. I don't know why someone would be upset about that because I personally love that they did that, but that's just how some people are. I absolutely love both games (they both have a special place in my heart, with John being the center of it lol), and I think most people agree.
@thestrong2401 No, he doesn't lol. He kills like 10 agency agents vs hundreds (?) in the villain route? And he's way less confident and wavering in his own self-image, meaning he still has the potential to be maybe not be a hero but also not totally psychotic
I never checked out what people’s opinions were on this but for some reason I had a feeling the personal connection between Bruce and Joker directly wouldn’t be liked among fans but in my opinion I really loved this
Telltale's Batman was my introduction to the Batman franchise (weird start, I know) and I was so happy to discover your video shortly afterwards! I didn't manage to find time to watch it until now, but better late than never, I guess ;) The interviews with Anthony Ingruber and Laura Post made this critique really special. It was interesting to get insight into their thoughts, their own opinions about the game and its characters and even some behind the scenes content! But obviously, your review in itself was amazing as well. Something I want to mention specificially is John's route - I played Vigilante first and Villain second and have to agree that the Villain route felt like a more satisfying conclusion to the story. Don't get me wrong, I love the path where Bruce and John stay friends (I believe that John's visitor actually was Bruce), but the Villain route felt much more complex and rewarding in its own way. I still like both outcomes, though. And I wish the first season would've implemented it as well with Harvey ... but I guess the message is that you can't always save everyone. I want to say so much more, but this part in the video about Villain/Vigilante Joker really stuck out to me. On the one hand, I loved Vigilante Joker because it gave me the ending I wanted, on the other hand, the Villain Joker route was objectively better to me. I'm still torn apart, honestly. But now that I think about it, that was the best thing Telltale could've done - give the best scenes to the less popular route. Anyway, those are my two cents. Amazing critique and amazing editing (I absolutely love how your words fit what is being shown). Do you already know what you plan to discuss next? :)
Thank you so much for watching it through! I'm glad you enjoyed Telltales Batman as much as I did 😁 Right now my current plan for my next video will be a study of Snyder's Superman (but that might change depending on time and motivation 😅)
I might be the only guy who thinks this but... I think the best way to reintroduce the Joker in the new Matt Reeves Batman trilogy is to portray the character as well and if not similar to the Telltale series's Joker (John Doe). I think a new unique Joker-like John Doe character on the big screen would work incredibly well and highlight an aspect of the Joker that hasn't been touched as much as it should of, which is the toxic/thrilling relationship and the dynamic between Batman and Joker. If The Batman (2022) does introduce the Joker I would love to see that Joker have an unexplainable, psychological obsession with Batman to emphasise how toxic and insane the Joker is if he is causing chaos for the sake of a complex love for the Batman so to speak. Just like John Doe's character in this game, I think a Joker similar to him would be something captivating and refreshing to see in a Batman movie.
If I'm being honest, I like the vigilante route purely because of Waller going after you and the scene with Bruce and Selina, not because of Joker being a vigilante. The Villian route is my favorite only because of how Joker acts. I would have preferred if they merged both.
I usually dont watch long critique like videos, but this one really peaked my interest, and honestly im suprised it has the amount of views it currently has. Ive always liked the direction Telltale took Batman in, the way theyre able to immerse the player into this world. You have presented a unique perspective on the Batman Telltale journey often ignored by other critics, the little bits of the interviews with voice actors were amazing and i cant even think about how much effort was put into this video. Man, youre criminally underrated keep up the good work
What I love about Vigilante Joker is that the story shows how hard and unappreciated the better path is. Not hero enough,not villain enough. But in real life,the most extreme drama is often a bitter consequence. A failed hero has made the hardest choice.
I loved the points you had on the game, and I whole-heartedly agree that this is one of (if not the best) interpretations of Batman and his world. Everything is so faithful, yet fresh. Dark, yet filled with hope. Telltale truly knows the Batman mythos and I'm really hoping that with their relatively recent revival, and their teases (posting a video on Batman, changing their YT banner to Bruce, and changing their Instagram pfp to Joker) that we'll be able to explore this world more. The video was phenomenal and incredibly well done. Thank you, and bravo!
I think this Telltale could've made a perfect superman game. Think about it fights / powers are a quick time event but the strength of these games are the character choices. Pa / Ma Kent has cancer and Lex comes to Perry with an offer for good PR, Perry rejects it but he comes to talk to you and Lois. Superman would say No but What would you say.....
I absolutely agree with almost everything you said. My only gripe with the games is that a-lot of the tension doesn't work if your not into Selena. I would never flirt with a friends girl, if they are dating or not. I never really cared for her more than a possible friend and when you friend zone her the game still tries to build the relationship as if I had committed to romancing her and that breaks the immersion quite a bit. I saved harvey because Selina is fine if you don't save her, she even says she's tough and doesn't need to be saved and harvey is a civilian who did need to be saved. But the game expects you to save her and to like her, I think you should never expect someone to like a character too much. Because if they don't it breaks your story. I will admit that they kinda fixed this in season 2 a bit as you can push her away or friend zone her and she gets it, respects your wishes to stay friends even. You can put her in a less priority state when negotiating with waller if you sold her out like I did, (because I am really sure she would have done the same) and prioritize Avesta who I liked better. The emphasis on choice is much better in that situation where the game respects your wishes, and I love that. Edit: Actually, I feel the need to comment that Johns vigilante route did make sense. In the villain route he feels betrayed by bruce and all he has is harley which he goes all in and gives into the bad urges that were always there. But in vigilante he gives up harley out of his admiration of bruce, plus bruce in that route needs to convey his care for john. Meaning that he fights his urges and tries to be the better person bruce wants him to be, he still ultimately fails because he is lying to himself of his true nature, but the point here is the effort. He still becomes joker in a way, the urges are there and he can't really fight them for long and succumbs. I think the real sad part of vigilante joker shows that in a non intentional way bruce is still manipulating john, as Alfred points out bruce made him, in most story tellings joker exists because batman does. As bruce tries to save john he is also encouraging him to lie to himself and push down his inner urges. He snaps as a result and kills a lot of people, he tried to be what bruce wanted but couldn't and gets sent back to Arkham. The only silver lighting being the scene where bruce visits him to show him he still cares and john is still his friend.
The dialogue about the guinea pigs that the Joker’s actor talked actually is in the game. It’s just hard to stumble across. You have to teach John how to be manipulative while he’s drinking a frappe.
I grew up with the Arkham games and have pretty much defined Batman as a part of who I am. Going back to rewatching TAS, Beyond and even JLA (The rest of DC wasn't the most important thing to me, but after JL I adore the universe), The Batman & brave and the bold. Without the Arkham games I probably wouldn't have a core part of me. However, they aren't perfect. I belive that the arkham games are the perfect interactive introduction to Batman alone. Telltale is best for a pure story driven ride into not only Batman but Bruce Wayne. If there is something the next Arkham style game should evolve from telltale is seeing both sides of Bruce's lives, from morals, conflicts of interests, how each mask can be used for benefits of both and how each on impacts on relationships. Telltale was able to add new ideas to Batman that I'd love to see explored. John Doe is definitely the most interesting and unique Joker take I've seen in a while. VA performance genuinely gives the idea that joker is there but has potential for redemption. Seeing Bruce be friends with John was... something. I love it so damn much. Having the ending where Bruce visits John after the Vigilante ending was so sweet and warm. Its unorthodox while also feeling so familiar to base lines that it doesn't feel unnatural to me. Harley being completely independent to Joker was fantastic. Made her a real threat of her own actions. John loving made it all the more interesting, complete 180 to how its *ment* to be. Sadly banes and Freeze are pretty lackluster, especially Freeze. I respect the writers for making Bane not overly stupid, kinda like a lesser Origins Bane. Wish Freeze showed more of his vulnerable side to Bruce, having to trust him with Nora and creating a good friendship. Arkham followed on this idea and always felt it was more suitable for him. Riddler was perfect, wasn't whiney like Statscream from Transformers 24/7 for the trophies. (I think the trophies are fun and genuis to make riddler a game mechanic) Telltale Riddler creates a more fearsome and formidable foe, him being from before Batman's time shows his intelligences, and experience. Making him more like Saw had his traps come off as death traps for ordinary people. I think he's done so well the next open world game should keep both strengths of Arkham and telltale.
Ahh yes an hour of talking bout telltale Batman the perfect YT video does exist! I absolutely loved this game I’ve been wanting to replay it again last time I replayed it I did it in Noir setting
Next to the Arkham series, this is my favorite Batman game series! I hope with Telltale coming back out of bankruptcy, that season 3 happens at some point.
I legitimately burst out laughing towards the end when you make the perfectly valid criticism of vigilante joker, (the outcome I’m personally partial to just because it was the most conflicted version of the joker I’ve seen in a while) where you made the point that it kind of cheapens the whole “becoming a ‘hero’” take that joker is always like, one step away from murder because it’s easy. And yeah. Jason Tods did it better when it comes to a fully fleshed-out personification of that debate, whereas joker is more of a “pebble makes a splash in a stream but it only ever flows one direction” type situation. Like you said, it’s inevitable. But it was just so funny to me that joker wants to be a “hero” and throws that word around very liberally as soon as he’s made that decision, so to speak, but like two scenes later he’s completely off his rocker. But it just felt really personal and I liked the choreography of the fight for that ending at least. And all of the acting was fabulous.
My favorite part was being able to save Harvey from getting his face burnt. It made me feel like my choices did matter and there was still hope for him to get better, though it would probably not happen. After playing season 2 I looked back at this and felt that if his story had been developed further it would've been something of the same villain or vigilate nature as with the Joker. As a fan of Batman's rogues gallery, I felt very connected to every character and genuinely wanted to help them regardless of what fate had in store for them. This game did make me feel like caring about them helped regardless of what I knew would happen because of canon. I was aware nothing I could do would really help them get better in the end; but having the choice to still try and it being impactful to shaping the relationships is priceless for a Batman story. It was the journey what mattered and crafted one of the most special experiences for me with videogames.
Yah know one of my favorite things about watching video essays like this is seeing what different people take from media, and this was a fantastically done watch. Thank you for going to all this effort! I actually have a few thoughts on your Joker takes! I find it interesting that you said basically that what he did for Harley was out of love but with Bruce out of friendship and loyalty. But I think love, friendship and loyalty can coexist, especially with a character like John. I believe it was a dev, Kent Mudle, who said that John was specifically written to be bisexual and that if he could have, he would have been with both Harley and Bruce, and part of his decent was that Bruce simply couldn’t meet him with equal intensity. In the Vigilante route, John didn’t necessarily want to inspire good, he wanted to be like Batman. You could say he idolized the violence and the cool factor but, especially after realizing Batman was Bruce, he did it out of love. He wanted to be loved by Bruce/Batman. Overall it’s pretty clear that he has at least a little crush on Bruce with how often he’s willing to put aside what even the girl he can’t imagine himself not ending up with, wants, in way of doing what Bruce tells him. But! I think with the theme of him not knowing who he is and trying to find himself, him never fully realizing even his own feelings or getting to express them fits perfectly. So I don’t think you’re incorrect in your wording (and hey friendship and loyalty are strong forces of love on their own) I think not seeing that John may also have unrequited/under-realized romantic feelings for Bruce that come into play isn’t seeing the full picture. (One last thing on this thought- John mentioned that Harley found him in a dark place in the asylum, that she was his light and his reason to live outside. Well, I think the ending with Bruce going to John is supposed to show how now he can have an entirely different influence. Bruce is that light that comes for him, and this time maybe he’ll actually have a chance at getting better.) As for your idea on the Vigilante path not being as good as the Villain path- I kiiiinda see where you’re coming from? Sorta. In my opinion I really don’t see the Red Hood comparison aside from a surface level interpretation and Red Hood and vigilante Joker are entirely different people in a way, and as I stated early John wasn’t really interested in heroism as he was being by Batman’s side. He was still a villain, still absolutely not in the right mind to be saving anyone, but he did it out of affection and so played by Batman’s rules. For me the interesting aspect was more “let’s watch Joker play pretend for a bit”. I dunno I may not be wording this in a cohesive way lol excuse me. I have criticisms with the villain route because I actually see it as *too* personal and petty too quickly? I don’t buy this version of Joker as the “Clown Prince of Crime”. The thing about other interpretations of Joker is that he’s a smart guy (sometimes) with a sadistic streak and probably some mental illness thrown into the bunch. Joker has plans and goals even if they’re absolutely bonkers (or in the case of the Joker from The Dark Knight, he lies and says he isn’t a guy who makes plans lol). And in these interpretations he’s into crime first and then Batman comes into the picture. It disrupts him to the point of obsession and in some cases attraction in a twisted way, and he’s a more formidable foe because he’s a powerful person who now also has target heart-eyes aimed at Batman who he’s willing to even self destruct for. Point is however, the villain came first. John Doe is just a guy in this version who just doesn’t have the same potential as his predecessors, who’s plans are more or less dictated by someone much smarter than him and who in this version I highly doubt he could do anything without. He can claim to be your ultimate enemy but he abandoned Harley, and even if he escapes he just doesn’t have the same ability to do more than pull in a few people for a small crime or business. In the end Batman would absolutely trounce him now that he knows he has to treat John like a criminal. For me, the obsession/revenge angle coming first just didn’t work. Overall though I really did think this is the most unique and interesting version of Joker we’ve had in a looong time. I mostly had thoughts on your Joker takes but I loved what you had to say about all the characters. Again, thank you for all the hard work you put in and for this lovely video I got to watch while doing some work. :)
Thank you! In retrospect, if there was one addition I could make to this video it would be exploring John's bisexuality a bit further. Excellent points you raised here. Thanks for watching!
I love Telltale Batman. Just like you, I bought both seasons on sale, not expecting much and was blown away. This video was awesome, man. Great job, can't wait to see more!
Great video! I don't have time to really write out why but, I disagree about vigilante John being unsatisfying. Maybe it just comes down to how I perceived his arc in the game, but I think his mental collapse is so much more visceral and intense and climactic in vigilante. You've convinced me to maybe give the villain route another go, though.
This telltale Batman is very interesting! It's like the Mass Effect games where we get to choose what happens and how the main character acts. Also the changes they did with some of the characters too like Batman/Bruce Wayne for one, we have the option to make him a more likable open and reasonable person and making him actually have feelings for someone like Catwoman/Selina Kyle, I always shipped them but he always acted so closed off in thinking he can't have a relationship in the other verisons. Also there's Harley, usually she's the hopeless naive lackey to you know who but in this one she was nobody's lackey but a strong independent who was in charge for once but also she was a real actual villain instead of the usual zippy happy anti-heroine we all know. John/Joker was usually crazily obsessed with only Batman but in this telltale version he was the lackey to Harley and was really having feelings for her this time. Anyway I am STILL waiting for telltale games to make the 3rd season of this and hope they finally do asap!
I think the best part of the batman telltale series is John, I finished season 1 thinking I'm not gonna give this guy the time of day cos I know he's gonna be the Joker eventually, I ignored him in arkham asylum, didn't take his offer for the phonecall, didn't accept his card at the funeral, chose to use him for information knowing I would betray his trust. But then the more I interacted with the guy and the more scenes I played with him ,Harley and the others the more I came to like the guy and the more choices I made that resulted in him not getting hurt, or making him happy like smiling for the photos he takes and throwing Catwoman under the bus later on, even without realising I was making those decisions for John's sake and eventually leading me to the vigilante Joker route even though I planned on going the villain route originally. He's such a well written and likeable character it's almost impossible to stick to your guns as batman or bruce if you ever mistreat him, all the chracters are exceptionally well written in the game besides maybe oswald/vicki (same character motive) but John is by far the most outstanding among them.
What I like most about Harley's voice actor is that she is the second Laura of the Batman telltale series. Also, I think Telltale should have given us Harley's pro-villain self in the 1st season, filling Doctor Leland's role and not wait till the second season. So I am very disappointed in the way they showed her to us, even though I liked her.
Typically how I played the two seasons is a mixture of both, a compassionate hero but also a bit aggressive, also did two play through with the two alternate Joker sides
This was a FANTASTIC critique! As a huge fan of Telltale, with their Batman games being two of my favorites, I KNEW I had to check this out for myself! Side note here, I would not consider myself an AVID Batman fan; Of course I watched all the Dark Knight films and the Killing Joke animated film, played the Injustice games, saw a few episodes of the original animated series, Beyond, and Brave and the Bold, and watched clips of the Arkham games, but I have NEVER picked up a Batman comic. Despite this tough, Telltale Batman is without a doubt my FAVORITE Batman story. The way Telltale just flipped everything around that I knew about the franchise was incredible, and I absolutely love it. I hold season 2 in more love than season 1, but both are great games. In season 1 I loved the twist of Vicki being the main antagonist, but I'm also surprised you didn't talk much in this critique about Penguin/Oz, who is in my opinion, the most interesting villain of that season. Having only really known the Animated and Arkham Penguins, I was shocked to see how Telltale reinvented him (even though he's kinda similar to Gotham's Penguin now). Jason Spisak did a great job turning Penguin into this suave, charming force that basically seeks out to destroy Bruce's life from the inside, and in a way makes him feel like the prototype Villain Joker! I love how if you go after Harvey in Ep. 4 when you face Penguin at the start of Ep. 5 Telltale molds him more into the classic Penguin, what with his monocle and his leg being screwed up by his father's statue falling on him. Also great that his father looks more like "traditional" Penguin too! I'm also surprised that with your love of Harvey you didn't really give your opinion on his descent into more of a kinder Two-Face if you save him instead of Selina in Ep. 2. That's what I did in my playthrough because I DID NOT want Harvey to become Two-Face. I'm curious if you played through this route you could give me your opinion on it? Onto Season 2, your critique was great! I also loved how you talked about managing to get close to Bane while at the same time feeling distant to Freeze, because I did the exact opposite! I played through that game seeing Bane as a threat to my cover, so I tried to get him kicked out every chance I could. Freeze was a great villain and probably my favorite member of The Pact behind Harley. I just wish he had something to do in Ep. 5 instead of just being essentially written out of the story in Ep. 4. Finally, I'm also curious what were your thoughts on the ending choice of season 2 to give up Alfred or Batman. And if Telltale were to ever continue with a Season 3, how do you think they would tie these endings together? Thank you again so much for making this video! If you want more Telltale Batman stuff, check out a comic called Batman: Sins of the Father. It takes place in between seasons 1 and 2 and is about Bruce chasing after Telltale's version of Deadshot, who was actually going to be an extra member of the Pact but got cut out of the game when it finally released! Take care, dude! Can't wait to see what you do next!
I can't speak for the two-face route you chose but I did both Alfred and Batman endings. It's interesting because I feel like if you have up Batman, then in the following season we would have a Spiderman 2 type story where he ignores it but eventually is called to action and it gets Alfred in danger or drives them apart. Certainly something interesting to think about!
These were the first Telltale games I ever got. During episode 2 of the first season, my family even started getting into the story during the part where Penguin's men were after Selina at the bar.
I absolutely love your video and made me even love the villain joker even more than I did before. However, I feel like you missed the point of the Vigilante Joker. He does not become a hero because he has good intentions. It is because he admires Batman and also because he has violent tendencies that he channels it through and justifies his violence by becoming a vigilante and fighting for justice. When he sees that Batman does not approve of him, it breaks him. As he himself says, "I wanted to be so much like you."
Ok, i'm gonna be honest with you: this is AMAZING. I'm halfway through the video and i absolutely adore it. Love your work, can't wait for your next vid, keep it up 🙏
@@PulseBladeenjoyer Oh shit. I totally forgot about it. I had wrote out the script, but couldn't find a way to talk about it accurately. I might actually try it again.
I just couldn't sell Catwoman out to the Pact in episode 3...also if you go to the Blacksite as Batman you get the best fight scenes in the whole season with Batman fighting both Bane and Freeze at the same time. And winning.
By the end when you mentioned Bruce visiting J.Doe (and the hush theory) in the vigilante ending I was really surprised. In my playthrough I had assumed Bruce went there because I had abandoned being Batman and was trying to help as Bruce instead. Funny what you assume.
I love Villian route but the one problem I have with it is how weak all the sudden batman gets. Like 4 thugs take him down lol could have had Joker catch Batman in a trap instead.
My relationship with Waller didn't end up being nearly as good as yours. We left on really bad terms and she didn't do anything for me. And it's not even because I chose to work with Gordon because I didn't. It's just that we argued a lot over everything even though we were working together and I refused to surrender John.
I had a decent relationship with Waller. It was full of respect. I did the villain ending. I always put her in her place and gave her the cold shoulder, but I was always on the level and honest when it came down to it. I also told her at the very end that if my identity ever got released, I’d be gunning for her first. She basically said, trust me I do NOT want to be on that side of your anger, and I would expect nothing less.In the end, I got to determine the futures for Avesta, Selina, and Gordon.
I've been telling people for years this is Not favorite Telltale Game but My Favorite Batman Game! I love the original take on the penguin I always thought as being one of Gotham's five families him and Bruce should know each other better I never really liked Vicky veil she was always a Lois Lane knocked off ( why do so many female love interests in superheroes have to be reporter Iris West April O'Neil Lois Lane Vicki Vale) Anyway the original villain they made her was perfect. I always wondered where she got her training from my idea for season 3 was she returns and it's revealed she was trained by the court of owls and she is back with them. And Batman will have to form a uneasy alliance with the pack So no matter which ending you pick with Joker vigilante or villain it will fit they have to team up for the sequel!. Also have you read the comic book that takes place in between Seasons called sins of the father?
Hard disagree with the ending. Villain Joker was boring in that it was typical and predictable. Vigilante felt more perosnal for me because i was playing to save/befriend john. So watching him slip away was way worse. Him becoming a twisted conflicted imitation of you felt WAYYY better. Like a little brother or child gone down the wrong path. Ends in a quick and dirty hostage crisis. Felt natural. The villain ending felt like they did it just to fit the comics. Hes suddenly smart, leading harley and sinister? Meh. An elaborate set of traps, taunting on speaker, a fun house. It just felt soooo tired. Felt lame having all the twists and turns and struggles to have it end up the same place every batman story ends. But i just played for the first time last week and didnt know they advertised the split. Never looked up these games. Bought on a whim. So i natutally played and got Vigilante. im SURE our perceptions and play style has alot to do with what we think was the most effective ending. Thanks for the review and the interviews!
Before I go on this long rant, I just want to say well done man. This obviously took a lot of hard work and dedication to make and it shows, the quality here is amazing. I'm amazed at how I agree and disagree with a lot of your choices and opinions but I still gain a new insight into that scene that I wouldn't have before. For example, I prefer to take the blame at the end of episode 3 to save Selina, I love their relationship and I wanted it to prosper. I felt like that was what my Bruce Wayne would do and I love how you brought that up throughout the video. You include us but also distinguish your own choices and opinions too. You mention how blaming Catwoman would save more lives and it's true but I love seeing this version of Bruce Wayne, the man who will do anything for the woman he loves. And this is only one of many versions of the character. The game is beautifully designed to mold your version. I bet you could put 10 people in a room who played the games and all of them felt different about a choice or their Bruce is far different to yours. This video made me realise how big and free the game let's you be in terms of characterization in characters despite being a linear game. You will always get from A to B, but the journey is never the same. By the way I think that when it comes to Vigilante Joker, I think his characterization comes from a place of wanting to be accepted by Bruce, no matter the cost. He uses his abilities to hurt people for revenge or getting even, he completely misses the point of being a hero because he can't get rid of these urges that are dug deep into the core of his character. I still think that Villain Joker is great, I just slightly prefer vigilante for trying something new and in my opinion it paid off. Also there is way less casualties in vigilante route, I remember villain route having a high death count. Selina is in more of villain route though compared to vigilante but you do get to say I love you to her in vigilante, hmm hard choice. Don't judge me, I love Batcat. I hope their relationship is developed more in the potential season 3. Sorry if I went off in different directions here, I just wanted to express my feelings towards this really well done critique. You're the first person to tackle this series in a video essay format(at least to my knowledge anyway) and I don't know if anyone will top you. Its criminal that this series doesn't get the attention it deserves, thank you for shining a light on it. Also its awesome that you got both Joker and Harley in the video, that's awesome! I'll definitely watch the interview now. So once again, congratulations man, you got yourself a new subscriber. Keep up the great work.
Thank you so much for this, it made my day ♥️! Don't fret about going off on a tangent, I love reading feedback and other experiences like yours. I hope one day Telltale Batman reaches more of the TH-cam scene that it deserves
Also not going to lie, I had to same theory as you about Telltale making another game because of their Twitter account haha, I just happened to come across it today and I was like "ITS HAPPENING". I think it will happen because it's one of Telltale's most popular properties so it would be ridiculous to pass up an opportunity to make more. I just think it will take time due to The Wolf Among Us season 2 being made first which is being developed entirely instead of the episodic format. This will obviously extend the release date so I'm predicting that we will get news of a season 3 at the end of the year or early next year. A man can dream
I know what you mean about all that. Usually Batman/Bruce Wayne is an unlikable closed off dick but in this one we have the option to make him be a more likable and open hero person who actually expresses his feelings for someone like Selina/Catwoman. I only hope we can get to make that go even further in the 3rd season if they ever finally make it after they're finished with The Wolf Among Us season 2 right now.
@@gibbs615 Yes we need more, I hope they don't do the cliche batman can't be happy because of his code so he breaks it off with Selina. I don't mind if your choices result in a breakup but the player should be rewarded if they manage to get a full romance
Even love letters like this one don't quite acknowledge the inherent honesty of inverting the dynamic between Harley and Joker, because a trained pscyhiatrist is in a terrifying and unique position to manipulate their patient. Especially one that's infatuated with them. Joker's manipulation of Harley in the animated series not only doesn't seem like something Joker would do, it certainly doesn't feel like something Joker _could_ do to an educated, compassionate career woman. We suspend disbelief, in part because we already know they are together. In this version suspension of disbelief is not necessary, it's a very real and very scary prospect that ramps up the believability of the relationship dynamic. One that still exists in a familiar state but with a current that flows in the opposite direction.
I remember first playing this game thinking it was going to be a fairly traditional Batman story with a little twist here and there. But holy crap was I blown away by the originality and fresh take on these characters!
I played Season 2 putting morality above all else and proving Waller that you don't have to do things her way. I trusted Gordon, but didn't trust Waller. I made it clear to Waller that I would not compromise my morality to do so. I was nicer to Freeze than to Bane. Freeze's motivation comes from a place of love, same as Batman. For Freeze, it's love and loyalty to his wife. For my Bruce and Batman, it was a loyalty to Gordon and John, and love for Catwoman. I prioritized the safety of Catwoman and John above all else, as I played Season 1 with Selina as more than a friend and a valuable ally. She is, deep down, a good person and worth redemption. I had faith that she would hold up her end as she did in the first game. I ended up in a stalemate with Waller, but secured Selina her freedom in return. As for John, I desperately (and naively) believed that Joker would not consume him. I was wrong, but also decided to tell him that I believed him to be a friend. What can I say? I believe that someone even as deranged as John, who was at one time quite lovable, could be redeemed. Maybe one day he could be, but his anger blinded him to the truth. As for Tiffany, she became one of the Agency's goons, but with doubts that she made the correct decision. I decided not to reveal Batman's true identity to her, as I thought I was protecting her from the fate that befell Lucius, but perhaps I made a mistake on that front. Maybe I should've trusted her. I trusted Selina with the Batcave after all, and Catwoman is a bit of an anti-hero.
If he dose get redeemed or turned into a minor villan. It's gonna take a while. Probably years or so. (Considering one chose the vigilante path.) He murdered alot of people. Though we can see he regrets his actions, and I did hear if you took this route he would be more like 60s joker. The kind that didn't kill, but was just a menice. I don't know if I am right in that department. Still I wish the best for him. (I'm saying this about a fictional character. Help me)
I personally think the beauty of the two endings is that there probably won’t be a season 3. Couldn’t imagine it being handled better than the Walking Dead season 2 split ending.
NGL I kind of wish we got a Season 3 Imagine seeing the Court of Owls, driving a detective horror narrative that pays off the themes of the other seasons
Thanks for this video, loved it. Way too much I could say about these games so I will be brief - this is my favorite version of the Batman mythos. I love the bravery of all changes & I actually love most of the changes in their own rights. Telltale made a fresh, unique take on the characters yet one that was true (in some cases, more true) to the spirit of them. The choices were important because they allowed you to be your preferred version of Batman - how you view him, what you think the character should be
This was a good series, and season 2 ended on such a big cliffhanger, I hope new Telltale can do a season 3, and incorporate Tiffany and the boy found in Lady Arkhams family home as the new Robin, and Batgirl into his new Batfamily Maybe Alfred will return better, or maybe Bruce will visit him when his condition worsens
@@minato_arisato3751 I didn't know that, maybe he wasn't adopted though, and besides most games to stick to a time table unless they want to, so I wouldn't call it stupid...
Haven’t even watched this yet but know it’s gonna be amazing! Been looking forward to this for a long time now and it looks as though you’ve done it absolute justice. Congrats man.
within five minutes of starting this, i was already tearing up lol. the series is phenomenal, your analysis was very thoughtful, & the love put into the construction of the video as a whole is incredible. great work!!
I can admit I also got quite emotional writing and editing this haha! Thank you so much for the kind words, I'm glad I got to share that sentiment with you
I always go back and forth between whether I like this or arkham better. This really made me feel as if I was Batman. I felt every desicions weight. I felt like I was really Bruce and I felt some of how stressful being Batman can be.
I disagree 1000% on the "villain path is better than "vigilante path". It even kinda hurts. I would never hurt a friend like that. Plus the path is so much more satisfying in my opinion and so fresh. I don't understand though. Why would you or anyone else hurt someone that much? The villain path made me think Bruce is not a good person and I shouldn't feel that. What he did and what other youtubers did to John was awful. I don't see Bruce actually doing that. I actually think its out of character and so harsh.
Agree to disagree. I enjoyed both routes just my personal preference was the villain one. I actually liked that feeling of guilt throughout the route, made me feel bad for my choices and that made it better for me personally
@@ProductionJournal Thanks. Just wanna say I don't think the Villain path is bad. It's excellent. I just think the Vigilante path is the better choice.
@@TheGamerRist22 I agree completely with you. It's obvious that the Villian Joker ending focused on John/Joker's feelings for Bruce and how John loves Bruce more than Harley, and will always choose him over Harley. We see examples of this when John wants to discuss giving the laptop to Bruce at the cafe, when he helps Bruce find Harley, when he wants to willingly side with Bruce on taking down Harley at the bridge while at the funhouse, when he gives up the locations of all the bombs to Gordan just so he can have Batman/Bruce, and in doing so Harley won't get what she wanted to stop her insanity, thus betraying her. Joker also betrays Harley when he leaves her alone to flee after the dinner fight, and when he keeps Bruce's identity as batman a secret from Harley. So, Joker didn't hate Bruce. It was the opposite. The villian route mirrors that of Death of the Family with how Joker was acting like a crazy jealous ex that was mad that Bruce/Batman was close with everyone else but him. Joker is doing all these twisted games just so Bruce knows how it feels to be betrayed by someone. As well as testing Bruce's own moralities with how he's associated with liars, thieves, and murderers, yet was too good for him. And despite everything he put Bruce through, he still cares about him deeply when Harley is about to kill him twice with activating the bomb. He wanted to play more mind games reading into Bruce just to dodge him getting killed. As for the Vigilante Joker ending, this route focused moreso on Bruce's feelings for John. And throughout the season, Alfred picks up on John's desire to be close to Bruce and how he would do anything for him. It's the same in the vigilante route. But, it's not just Batman and Joker's relationship that's focused on, there's also the showdown with Waller which was supposed to happen, Iman Avesta changing sides, and the agency storyline that was going on before episode 5 with them being corrupt. The vigilante ending ties up eveything in the story, meanwhile the villian ending only focuses on Joker being the villain and every other storyline is pushed aside. Anthony Ingruber was right about the vigilante route making more sense and how it seems to be the canon route seeing how it focuses on everything that was given to us throughout the story. Plus, can't go wrong with Bruce visiting John at the asylum in the end. :) And I also agree with you on Bruce being cruel in the villain route being ooc. That's why Bruce constantly trying to apologize to John and stating how he never meant to hurt him is only right. I also made it to the point where I trusted him as much as possible but had to have doubts at the bridge where it's actually more heartbreaking when John turns into a villain. John would mistakenly think that Bruce pretended to trust him when in reality I make it as though Bruce trusted him about defending himself but had doubts he could take down Harley due to Harley's manipulative nature. This outcome lessens John's pain a bit at least.
I hope a S3 happens one day. Loved this game. Both seasons. Telltale Batman unexpectedly became my favorite take on the Dark Knight story and universe.
what an absolutely well crafted video, it's easy to tell how much effort you and the voice actors put into this video and how much you have a genuine love for the characters. You deserve way more subscribers (seems like you're gaining quite a few as of the moment)
Yea id rather that not be Hush. Completely ruins my satisfaction for the vigilante route He might not be cut out for Hero work but atleast their friendship still exists which is what I fought so hard for in the route.
I’ve really only watched one play through, but the way I understand the antihero route is that it’s the ending you get if you genuinely try to prevent John from becoming the Joker…only for all your efforts to be in vein, but with a glimmer of hope as Bruce visits him in Arkham
Great work on the video mate and thanks for having me on to chat!
It was my pleasure, Anthony!
You’re amazing
You're the man
@@ProductionJournal I'm only a half hour in and I am enjoying your critique. I feel the exact same way about the game. I love playing it. Awesome 👍. You've got a subscriber in me.
@Anthony Ingruber amazing Job as the Joker dude. Spectacular!!!
If a third season ever happens...I *NEED* to see Telltale's version of Scarecrow
I hope to be able to make Bruce & Selina's love go even further.
same bro i so badly want a season 3
@@gibbs615 love how in season 2 even the smallest dialogue could cause the story to change like for example if you say Waller owes you then you could either free Selena put the pact in jail or .. something else
@@omnipayne861 Oh yeah I know that.
Actually they want to make a S3 after Wolf Amoung Us S2, I don't know if they gonna use some of the previous ideas, for S3 the plan was include Dick Grayson and Ra's al ghul and after de dead of Dick parent's the moral dilemma is gonna What if Batman could revive people who lost in the past, and who is gonna guide Dick, like a Moral Robin or more Brutal, also rive Lucius Fox or not ?
That brilliant "date" scene with John also has a bit where he talks about how everything made sense to him in the asylum, but the outside world is far more chaotic and intimidating. That may explain - within the world of the story - why he had such a stark change in self-assurance
The thing I really love about the Villain ending with Joker, is that he wanted a relationship with Bruce so bad, to be together “forever” in some way that he fully realizes the only way they can have a permanent relationship, is for him to be Bruce’s nemesis. Because then they’ll get to fight forever, even though John hates Bruce that hatred stems from some sick kind of love/obsession. “I’ll be the knife if your side until the end of time…” that is really what he wants, and he’ll do anything to be the perfect villain. Knowing Joker, as a villain, that’s terrifying. We’ve already seen the ramifications of Jokers actions, especially when that plight is personal
I really love that take. "Someone like you...could never really be friends...with someone like ME" - as you have perfectly put it, he knows he'll never be a permanent part of Bruce's life. But Bruce is all he's got. So if he can't remain his friend, he'll become his problem. Something that will force them together forever, and it's a bit of a feedback loop there where he'll gradually come to hate Bruce more and more through his villainy but he can't bear to really hurt him because he means so much to him. Thank you for commenting! Made my day.
It was heartbreaking seeing John slip away at the end especially because i really thought I’d be able to save him from falling to darkness.
We do save him.
It is just that the wounds still need to heal.
You did save him. You’re going to be able to rehabilitate him in season 3.
I agree with the final fight with Joker and Bruce being more personal in the Villain path than the fight with Joker and Batman with the Vigilante version, that last moment after their fight made me feel emotional.
I really love the Vigilante path for feeling different. It seems his desire to be a “vigilante” doesn’t come from a place of good, but rather a place of wanting revenge and feeling that being like Batman would give him a way to channel that violence. He appreciates Bruce’s trust of him in the funhouse and on the bridge, but he doesn’t really get inspired to be like Batman until Waller tries to kill him on the bridge after he refuses to let her have the virus. We see in the vigilante version that he is disgusted by the Agency and their methods, chanelling his hatred for Waller over everything else and letting it overpower any goodwill he was being taught by Bruce. That build up to him finally snapping in the chemical plant was incredible to me, with him losing his faith in Batman after blindly believing that he is following his methods and claiming Batman to be a hypocrite that mirrors Waller. As the player, I really wanted to try to save him, but the game makes it clear that he is slipping away, and despite Waller being an enemy (I also prefer being able to confront her over her crimes in the Vigilante version than letting her skate off for it in the Villain version) we see that Joker is clearly the dangerous one after kidnapping her and previously impulsively throwing bombs and blowing up a building to get Waller which caused Batman to get injured. And that moment where he goes off and murders the three agents who were about to arrest him, and he goes “It’s Joker!” made my mouth drop the first time. You can see in Batman’s eyes and on his face that he was just astounded and disappointed in how far he had fallen, sad that his friend is no longer there before their final fight begins. I just loved their dynamic in that path.
Telltale overall did a fantastic job with both routes, I remember them announcing it to be “their most ambitious episode yet” and they were right, they truly made the choices MATTER.
I was going to make a comment similar to this but I really can't put it to words quite like you did. You hit the nail right on the head.
Adding to this;
I love the Vigilante route for how it wraps up everyone else
Waller gets to be an antagonist, the Pact become the SS (paying off that detail) and ngl it just felt more conclusive to the story as a whole
Batman Telltale Season 2 is...
IMMACULATE 👏🏾
Absolutely!
I have a few issues with it but it’s definitely a strong version of batman
@Seb the first season isn't as good as batman season 2 but it's still awesome
@@tyleroutland435 I like what they really did with Vicki Vale in the 1st one.
@@jfyne03 same
While I think the villain ending is phenomenal as well, I think that the vigilante ending is a better conclusion to John’s arc. I feel like the villain ending loses some of the ambiguity of John’s character and his relationship with Bruce had.
Throughout the game up until Episode 4, I never really got the feeling like John was a bad person. The only times I remember him reveling in violence or criminality was when he was with the pact, but if his relationships with Bruce and Harley have shown us anything, its that John desperately wants to be validated and accepted, so he likely only acted that way to gain their approval. The villain ending to me doesn’t really feel like Joker so much as it feels like John trying to be Joker. They way John presents himself is so grandiose that it becomes apparent that he is doing so for Bruce’s sake. Even though their relationship has been permanently ruined, John still seeks Bruce’s validation as an equal. He even says to Bruce something along the lines of, “Be the hero I need you to be.” This ending still works since ultimately he is still trying to get Bruce to validate him, but this aspect of his character is a bit more meaningful in the vigilante ending. Because Bruce and John’s relationship is the most important part of the game, I feel like keeping this dynamic in tact is very important.
In the vigilante ending, John feels more like himself, and thus his desire for Bruce’s approval feels more appropriate. This further highlights the tragedy of the character, as the transition of him becoming Joker is more gradual. He is tormented by his inability to live up to Bruce’s expectations, and he begins to bottle up the violent tendencies that he lets loose in the villain ending. John becoming Joker is not quite as much of a snap as it is a slow descent.
That is, until the very end of the vigilante ending, where that final snap is much more meaningful. As I said before, when John becomes Joker in the villain ending it feels like John is playing a character, but in the vigilante ending it is clear that has completely lost control. He is at the point where he can’t even speak; all he can do is laugh. Once he gets passed this, John practically lays out what his whole character arc has been....
“I was so busy looking at you, admiring you, wanting to be like you... Be loved by you... I lost myself, but not anymore!”
By the end of the villain ending, he in a sense hasn’t changed because his entire world still revolves around Bruce and Harley. In the vigilante ending though, he has finally outgrown them. He no longer cares for Harley, and while he still admires Bruce, he has come to see that he can’t be him. “I really wanted to be a hero, y’know? But I just can’t!”
I think a great example of the fundamental difference between the two Joker’s is their final laugh. Villain Joker’s final laugh is a loud, hysterical laugh fitting of his completely unhinged nature, while Vigilante Joker’s final laugh retains John’s subdued, nervous laughter.
Both endings are phenomenal, but I feel like the vigilante ending better suited the character dynamics they set up with John. Sorry if this was a little hard to follow, I’m very tired so it’s kinda difficult for me to formulate my thoughts.
Perfectly said
I’m someone who preferred the vigilante ending as well. It wrapped up Bruce’s and Johns relationship in a way that satisfyingly exemplified Johns character arc (of trying his best for Bruce and Harley, but ultimately, his nature cannot be changed.) Since their dynamic is the heart of this game, Jokers slow descent and resolve by the end of the vigilante route was so complex and fascinating, as opposed to the villain ending. The villain ending makes more sense if you prefer that neat knot of “classic joker” being the nemesis of Bruce, while the vigilante joker is more a result of Bruce’s actions. More complexity there that goes unexplored within other bat media. Anyways, great analysis!
What they did with Joker was great cause Telltale gave us a new take but it was a great study of the relationship between Him and Batman
I liked the corrupt and evil versions of the Waynes. Versions of them who are more than just "Good people trying to help their city who get killed by a mugger in front of their son" are welcome. It's why I like the Flashpoint universe where only Bruce was killed, Thomas became Batman and Martha, having been driven insane by Bruce's death became The Joker. The Telltale version also makes Batman and Vicki Vale / Lady Arkham similar since both their parents got murdered but where Bruce wanted to stop what happened to him from happening to anyone else and when he found out the truth about his family also wanted to make up for their crimes Vicki's family the Arkhams were murdered on Thomas Wayne's orders causing her to be put in foster care and eventually be adopted by the abusive Vales who only adopted her for the money which is unfortunately something a lot of foster parents do in real life. It didn't justify the things she and the Children of Arkham did to Bruce and Gotham as a whole but it explained them.
Omg I see you absolutely everywhere on TH-cam. From Batman content to Kingdom Hearts content you are EVERYWHERE. This is an honour 🙌
I genuinely respect and understand why you didn't enjoy all of Vigilante Joker's arc.
I'm one of the many that loved and prefer that route. To provide a respectable counterpoint to why I think John went to "Be a Hero of Justice" so quickly made some degree of sense
1. He did mention how he admired and fanboyed about Batman.
2. The John bringing you the laptop (if you sold out Catwoman) was I think Telltale's biggest hint to the possibility John could be an ally to Batman. But I agree with you that the Catwoman scene had vastly better development and impact overall.
3. He enjoyed how chaotic and brutal Batman is and John saw it as a way to be his chaotic self, while also being liked and admired for it himself.
4. I think upon learning Bruce was Batman it reinforced his determination to be friends with Bruce however he could even doing something very contradictory to his very nature.
5. This route showed the last vestige of "John Doe" trying to please others and being dependent on others guiding himself.
You did bring up a decent point that it wasn't fully explored or hinted enough that he could be explored enough. And I respect your preference to the Villain version. If anything it shows even more how well Telltale nailed doing two versions of Joker simultaneously.
At least I am glad Season 3 is in the works and if Telltale really wants things to be kept quiet and they're working hard on Wolf among us and Batman; I am hoping they triple down on everything they built up from this season and keep with their original ideas of Ra's al Ghul and Scarecrow as their next rogues gallery.
Agreed!
I'm not gonna lie at first I didn't know how to feel how they switched the roles around with Joker and Harley just because I'm so used to Joker being the dominant one but then after I came around to enjoying it as it was very different but it was done in a good way
and this Harley is played greatly
Hottest take I have:
TellTale's version of the Joker is the best version of the Joker. I'll stand by that.
Nah go watch Lego Batman
OK but how did you not bring up the fact that they created the single greatest depiction of the Batmobile ever??? Not a mini tank. Not a jet engine on wheels. Just a superb car that looks stunning and moves fast. And it’s transformations are badass too
This is my only regret
Joker was never trying to be "good" guy in the vigilante route
He was just worshipping his Idol Bruce/Batman. It was never about good intentions with him lol it made total sense
If anything during the Vigilante route you can see he is more crazy and impulsive. His Joker reveal at Ace Chemicals is honestly the best and the laugh...just perfect
I felt more satisfied knowing that My Bruce and John are still friends at the end of the game. He's just not meant to be a Hero thats all. He even said it himself and that was the entire point of the episode
I'm really suprised these games are so underrated. I just heard of them a few weeks ago and I fell in love immediatly. Rarely been so invested in a game. They are some of the best Batman content ever. I really hope, now that Telltale is back, we will get to see a third season. Besides that, how were these games received at their launch?
Honestly I'm not too sure. Like you, I came into the Telltale Batman scene pretty late and loved them! I wish I was there at the beginning though
From what I know, it got mostly good reviews from Telltale lovers (and people in general), but some of the hardcore Batman lovers were upset that the story wasn't how it's always been. I don't know why someone would be upset about that because I personally love that they did that, but that's just how some people are.
I absolutely love both games (they both have a special place in my heart, with John being the center of it lol), and I think most people agree.
Really awesome video on one of the most underrated pieces of Batman media, great work!
I know right I'd the storytelling is better then the Arkham series
Yes , the villain path makes sense and is very good but I hate seeing John like that 🥺😭
In vigilante's path he ends up becoming even worst
@@23Raind and that scene where he gets excited seeing Bruce. My heart
@thestrong2401
No, he doesn't lol. He kills like 10 agency agents vs hundreds (?) in the villain route? And he's way less confident and wavering in his own self-image, meaning he still has the potential to be maybe not be a hero but also not totally psychotic
I never checked out what people’s opinions were on this but for some reason I had a feeling the personal connection between Bruce and Joker directly wouldn’t be liked among fans but in my opinion I really loved this
I agree. On paper it's such a bizarre concept but it just works here really well!
Telltale's Batman was my introduction to the Batman franchise (weird start, I know) and I was so happy to discover your video shortly afterwards! I didn't manage to find time to watch it until now, but better late than never, I guess ;)
The interviews with Anthony Ingruber and Laura Post made this critique really special. It was interesting to get insight into their thoughts, their own opinions about the game and its characters and even some behind the scenes content!
But obviously, your review in itself was amazing as well. Something I want to mention specificially is John's route - I played Vigilante first and Villain second and have to agree that the Villain route felt like a more satisfying conclusion to the story. Don't get me wrong, I love the path where Bruce and John stay friends (I believe that John's visitor actually was Bruce), but the Villain route felt much more complex and rewarding in its own way. I still like both outcomes, though. And I wish the first season would've implemented it as well with Harvey ... but I guess the message is that you can't always save everyone.
I want to say so much more, but this part in the video about Villain/Vigilante Joker really stuck out to me. On the one hand, I loved Vigilante Joker because it gave me the ending I wanted, on the other hand, the Villain Joker route was objectively better to me. I'm still torn apart, honestly. But now that I think about it, that was the best thing Telltale could've done - give the best scenes to the less popular route.
Anyway, those are my two cents. Amazing critique and amazing editing (I absolutely love how your words fit what is being shown). Do you already know what you plan to discuss next? :)
Thank you so much for watching it through! I'm glad you enjoyed Telltales Batman as much as I did 😁
Right now my current plan for my next video will be a study of Snyder's Superman (but that might change depending on time and motivation 😅)
I'm one of those people who love vigilante Joker but my favorite part of the video was your criticism on vigilante joker, great video!!! 👍👍👍
I might be the only guy who thinks this but...
I think the best way to reintroduce the Joker in the new Matt Reeves Batman trilogy is to portray the character as well and if not similar to the Telltale series's Joker (John Doe). I think a new unique Joker-like John Doe character on the big screen would work incredibly well and highlight an aspect of the Joker that hasn't been touched as much as it should of, which is the toxic/thrilling relationship and the dynamic between Batman and Joker. If The Batman (2022) does introduce the Joker I would love to see that Joker have an unexplainable, psychological obsession with Batman to emphasise how toxic and insane the Joker is if he is causing chaos for the sake of a complex love for the Batman so to speak. Just like John Doe's character in this game, I think a Joker similar to him would be something captivating and refreshing to see in a Batman movie.
YES. I HAD THE SAME THOUGHTS!
@@ProductionJournal Thanks, glad you like it. Love the video as well, btw.
If I'm being honest, I like the vigilante route purely because of Waller going after you and the scene with Bruce and Selina, not because of Joker being a vigilante. The Villian route is my favorite only because of how Joker acts. I would have preferred if they merged both.
All I want is another telltale batman game. Soooo many stories you can tell with batman characters
I usually dont watch long critique like videos, but this one really peaked my interest, and honestly im suprised it has the amount of views it currently has. Ive always liked the direction Telltale took Batman in, the way theyre able to immerse the player into this world. You have presented a unique perspective on the Batman Telltale journey often ignored by other critics, the little bits of the interviews with voice actors were amazing and i cant even think about how much effort was put into this video. Man, youre criminally underrated keep up the good work
Thank you so much! This means the world to me 🥰😁
I'm glad you enjoyed it! It was a lot of fun to make!
What I love about Vigilante Joker is that the story shows how hard and unappreciated the better path is. Not hero enough,not villain enough. But in real life,the most extreme drama is often a bitter consequence. A failed hero has made the hardest choice.
I loved the points you had on the game, and I whole-heartedly agree that this is one of (if not the best) interpretations of Batman and his world. Everything is so faithful, yet fresh. Dark, yet filled with hope. Telltale truly knows the Batman mythos and I'm really hoping that with their relatively recent revival, and their teases (posting a video on Batman, changing their YT banner to Bruce, and changing their Instagram pfp to Joker) that we'll be able to explore this world more. The video was phenomenal and incredibly well done. Thank you, and bravo!
Thank you for watching! I really hope it continues too!!
I think it would be fun to see each of the Batman actors play this game, and see the different choices each of them would make.
I think this Telltale could've made a perfect superman game. Think about it fights / powers are a quick time event but the strength of these games are the character choices.
Pa / Ma Kent has cancer and Lex comes to Perry with an offer for good PR, Perry rejects it but he comes to talk to you and Lois. Superman would say No but What would you say.....
I LOVE IT
Finally, some love for my favorite Batman game. Phenomenal work my dude, keep it up!
NAAAHHHH man the vigilante Joket ending is the way forward. Cool to see your vire from the other side though. great video
1:29:39 I think he just wanted to be like Batman and cement their friendship by trying to be a hero like him.
I absolutely agree with almost everything you said. My only gripe with the games is that a-lot of the tension doesn't work if your not into Selena. I would never flirt with a friends girl, if they are dating or not. I never really cared for her more than a possible friend and when you friend zone her the game still tries to build the relationship as if I had committed to romancing her and that breaks the immersion quite a bit. I saved harvey because Selina is fine if you don't save her, she even says she's tough and doesn't need to be saved and harvey is a civilian who did need to be saved. But the game expects you to save her and to like her, I think you should never expect someone to like a character too much. Because if they don't it breaks your story.
I will admit that they kinda fixed this in season 2 a bit as you can push her away or friend zone her and she gets it, respects your wishes to stay friends even. You can put her in a less priority state when negotiating with waller if you sold her out like I did, (because I am really sure she would have done the same) and prioritize Avesta who I liked better. The emphasis on choice is much better in that situation where the game respects your wishes, and I love that.
Edit: Actually, I feel the need to comment that Johns vigilante route did make sense. In the villain route he feels betrayed by bruce and all he has is harley which he goes all in and gives into the bad urges that were always there. But in vigilante he gives up harley out of his admiration of bruce, plus bruce in that route needs to convey his care for john. Meaning that he fights his urges and tries to be the better person bruce wants him to be, he still ultimately fails because he is lying to himself of his true nature, but the point here is the effort. He still becomes joker in a way, the urges are there and he can't really fight them for long and succumbs.
I think the real sad part of vigilante joker shows that in a non intentional way bruce is still manipulating john, as Alfred points out bruce made him, in most story tellings joker exists because batman does. As bruce tries to save john he is also encouraging him to lie to himself and push down his inner urges. He snaps as a result and kills a lot of people, he tried to be what bruce wanted but couldn't and gets sent back to Arkham. The only silver lighting being the scene where bruce visits him to show him he still cares and john is still his friend.
The dialogue about the guinea pigs that the Joker’s actor talked actually is in the game. It’s just hard to stumble across. You have to teach John how to be manipulative while he’s drinking a frappe.
I grew up with the Arkham games and have pretty much defined Batman as a part of who I am. Going back to rewatching TAS, Beyond and even JLA (The rest of DC wasn't the most important thing to me, but after JL I adore the universe), The Batman & brave and the bold.
Without the Arkham games I probably wouldn't have a core part of me.
However, they aren't perfect. I belive that the arkham games are the perfect interactive introduction to Batman alone. Telltale is best for a pure story driven ride into not only Batman but Bruce Wayne.
If there is something the next Arkham style game should evolve from telltale is seeing both sides of Bruce's lives, from morals, conflicts of interests, how each mask can be used for benefits of both and how each on impacts on relationships.
Telltale was able to add new ideas to Batman that I'd love to see explored. John Doe is definitely the most interesting and unique Joker take I've seen in a while. VA performance genuinely gives the idea that joker is there but has potential for redemption. Seeing Bruce be friends with John was... something. I love it so damn much. Having the ending where Bruce visits John after the Vigilante ending was so sweet and warm. Its unorthodox while also feeling so familiar to base lines that it doesn't feel unnatural to me.
Harley being completely independent to Joker was fantastic. Made her a real threat of her own actions. John loving made it all the more interesting, complete 180 to how its *ment* to be.
Sadly banes and Freeze are pretty lackluster, especially Freeze. I respect the writers for making Bane not overly stupid, kinda like a lesser Origins Bane. Wish Freeze showed more of his vulnerable side to Bruce, having to trust him with Nora and creating a good friendship. Arkham followed on this idea and always felt it was more suitable for him.
Riddler was perfect, wasn't whiney like Statscream from Transformers 24/7 for the trophies. (I think the trophies are fun and genuis to make riddler a game mechanic) Telltale Riddler creates a more fearsome and formidable foe, him being from before Batman's time shows his intelligences, and experience. Making him more like Saw had his traps come off as death traps for ordinary people. I think he's done so well the next open world game should keep both strengths of Arkham and telltale.
Ahh yes an hour of talking bout telltale Batman the perfect YT video does exist! I absolutely loved this game I’ve been wanting to replay it again last time I replayed it I did it in Noir setting
Next to the Arkham series, this is my favorite Batman game series! I hope with Telltale coming back out of bankruptcy, that season 3 happens at some point.
Tbh I naturally got the vigilante route and never knew there was a second one. Now I gotta replay this
I legitimately burst out laughing towards the end when you make the perfectly valid criticism of vigilante joker, (the outcome I’m personally partial to just because it was the most conflicted version of the joker I’ve seen in a while) where you made the point that it kind of cheapens the whole “becoming a ‘hero’” take that joker is always like, one step away from murder because it’s easy. And yeah. Jason Tods did it better when it comes to a fully fleshed-out personification of that debate, whereas joker is more of a “pebble makes a splash in a stream but it only ever flows one direction” type situation. Like you said, it’s inevitable. But it was just so funny to me that joker wants to be a “hero” and throws that word around very liberally as soon as he’s made that decision, so to speak, but like two scenes later he’s completely off his rocker. But it just felt really personal and I liked the choreography of the fight for that ending at least. And all of the acting was fabulous.
Anthony is a great guy and a great choice for the joker
These games deserve more love
18:39 this scene always gives me chills
My favorite part was being able to save Harvey from getting his face burnt. It made me feel like my choices did matter and there was still hope for him to get better, though it would probably not happen. After playing season 2 I looked back at this and felt that if his story had been developed further it would've been something of the same villain or vigilate nature as with the Joker. As a fan of Batman's rogues gallery, I felt very connected to every character and genuinely wanted to help them regardless of what fate had in store for them. This game did make me feel like caring about them helped regardless of what I knew would happen because of canon. I was aware nothing I could do would really help them get better in the end; but having the choice to still try and it being impactful to shaping the relationships is priceless for a Batman story. It was the journey what mattered and crafted one of the most special experiences for me with videogames.
I'm so glad you liked the game!
@@ProductionJournal this video is a masterpiece!!!
Yah know one of my favorite things about watching video essays like this is seeing what different people take from media, and this was a fantastically done watch. Thank you for going to all this effort!
I actually have a few thoughts on your Joker takes!
I find it interesting that you said basically that what he did for Harley was out of love but with Bruce out of friendship and loyalty.
But I think love, friendship and loyalty can coexist, especially with a character like John.
I believe it was a dev, Kent Mudle, who said that John was specifically written to be bisexual and that if he could have, he would have been with both Harley and Bruce, and part of his decent was that Bruce simply couldn’t meet him with equal intensity.
In the Vigilante route, John didn’t necessarily want to inspire good, he wanted to be like Batman. You could say he idolized the violence and the cool factor but, especially after realizing Batman was Bruce, he did it out of love. He wanted to be loved by Bruce/Batman.
Overall it’s pretty clear that he has at least a little crush on Bruce with how often he’s willing to put aside what even the girl he can’t imagine himself not ending up with, wants, in way of doing what Bruce tells him.
But! I think with the theme of him not knowing who he is and trying to find himself, him never fully realizing even his own feelings or getting to express them fits perfectly. So I don’t think you’re incorrect in your wording (and hey friendship and loyalty are strong forces of love on their own) I think not seeing that John may also have unrequited/under-realized romantic feelings for Bruce that come into play isn’t seeing the full picture.
(One last thing on this thought- John mentioned that Harley found him in a dark place in the asylum, that she was his light and his reason to live outside. Well, I think the ending with Bruce going to John is supposed to show how now he can have an entirely different influence. Bruce is that light that comes for him, and this time maybe he’ll actually have a chance at getting better.)
As for your idea on the Vigilante path not being as good as the Villain path- I kiiiinda see where you’re coming from? Sorta. In my opinion I really don’t see the Red Hood comparison aside from a surface level interpretation and Red Hood and vigilante Joker are entirely different people in a way, and as I stated early John wasn’t really interested in heroism as he was being by Batman’s side. He was still a villain, still absolutely not in the right mind to be saving anyone, but he did it out of affection and so played by Batman’s rules. For me the interesting aspect was more “let’s watch Joker play pretend for a bit”. I dunno I may not be wording this in a cohesive way lol excuse me.
I have criticisms with the villain route because I actually see it as *too* personal and petty too quickly? I don’t buy this version of Joker as the “Clown Prince of Crime”. The thing about other interpretations of Joker is that he’s a smart guy (sometimes) with a sadistic streak and probably some mental illness thrown into the bunch. Joker has plans and goals even if they’re absolutely bonkers (or in the case of the Joker from The Dark Knight, he lies and says he isn’t a guy who makes plans lol). And in these interpretations he’s into crime first and then Batman comes into the picture. It disrupts him to the point of obsession and in some cases attraction in a twisted way, and he’s a more formidable foe because he’s a powerful person who now also has target heart-eyes aimed at Batman who he’s willing to even self destruct for. Point is however, the villain came first.
John Doe is just a guy in this version who just doesn’t have the same potential as his predecessors, who’s plans are more or less dictated by someone much smarter than him and who in this version I highly doubt he could do anything without. He can claim to be your ultimate enemy but he abandoned Harley, and even if he escapes he just doesn’t have the same ability to do more than pull in a few people for a small crime or business. In the end Batman would absolutely trounce him now that he knows he has to treat John like a criminal. For me, the obsession/revenge angle coming first just didn’t work.
Overall though I really did think this is the most unique and interesting version of Joker we’ve had in a looong time. I mostly had thoughts on your Joker takes but I loved what you had to say about all the characters. Again, thank you for all the hard work you put in and for this lovely video I got to watch while doing some work. :)
Thank you! In retrospect, if there was one addition I could make to this video it would be exploring John's bisexuality a bit further. Excellent points you raised here. Thanks for watching!
I love Telltale Batman. Just like you, I bought both seasons on sale, not expecting much and was blown away. This video was awesome, man. Great job, can't wait to see more!
Thank you! I'm glad you liked the games too!
Great video! I don't have time to really write out why but, I disagree about vigilante John being unsatisfying. Maybe it just comes down to how I perceived his arc in the game, but I think his mental collapse is so much more visceral and intense and climactic in vigilante. You've convinced me to maybe give the villain route another go, though.
This telltale Batman is very interesting! It's like the Mass Effect games where we get to choose what happens and how the main character acts. Also the changes they did with some of the characters too like Batman/Bruce Wayne for one, we have the option to make him a more likable open and reasonable person and making him actually have feelings for someone like Catwoman/Selina Kyle, I always shipped them but he always acted so closed off in thinking he can't have a relationship in the other verisons. Also there's Harley, usually she's the hopeless naive lackey to you know who but in this one she was nobody's lackey but a strong independent who was in charge for once but also she was a real actual villain instead of the usual zippy happy anti-heroine we all know. John/Joker was usually crazily obsessed with only Batman but in this telltale version he was the lackey to Harley and was really having feelings for her this time. Anyway I am STILL waiting for telltale games to make the 3rd season of this and hope they finally do asap!
I think the best part of the batman telltale series is John, I finished season 1 thinking I'm not gonna give this guy the time of day cos I know he's gonna be the Joker eventually, I ignored him in arkham asylum, didn't take his offer for the phonecall, didn't accept his card at the funeral, chose to use him for information knowing I would betray his trust.
But then the more I interacted with the guy and the more scenes I played with him ,Harley and the others the more I came to like the guy and the more choices I made that resulted in him not getting hurt, or making him happy like smiling for the photos he takes and throwing Catwoman under the bus later on, even without realising I was making those decisions for John's sake and eventually leading me to the vigilante Joker route even though I planned on going the villain route originally.
He's such a well written and likeable character it's almost impossible to stick to your guns as batman or bruce if you ever mistreat him, all the chracters are exceptionally well written in the game besides maybe oswald/vicki (same character motive) but John is by far the most outstanding among them.
What I like most about Harley's voice actor is that she is the second Laura of the Batman telltale series. Also, I think Telltale should have given us Harley's pro-villain self in the 1st season, filling Doctor Leland's role and not wait till the second season. So I am very disappointed in the way they showed her to us, even though I liked her.
fkn beautiful, man. one of the most impressive videos i've seen this year.
Typically how I played the two seasons is a mixture of both, a compassionate hero but also a bit aggressive, also did two play through with the two alternate Joker sides
My playthough is usually, "always be Batman, but if it hurts John, he's the exception and be as compassionate as possible."
This was a FANTASTIC critique! As a huge fan of Telltale, with their Batman games being two of my favorites, I KNEW I had to check this out for myself! Side note here, I would not consider myself an AVID Batman fan; Of course I watched all the Dark Knight films and the Killing Joke animated film, played the Injustice games, saw a few episodes of the original animated series, Beyond, and Brave and the Bold, and watched clips of the Arkham games, but I have NEVER picked up a Batman comic.
Despite this tough, Telltale Batman is without a doubt my FAVORITE Batman story. The way Telltale just flipped everything around that I knew about the franchise was incredible, and I absolutely love it.
I hold season 2 in more love than season 1, but both are great games.
In season 1 I loved the twist of Vicki being the main antagonist, but I'm also surprised you didn't talk much in this critique about Penguin/Oz, who is in my opinion, the most interesting villain of that season. Having only really known the Animated and Arkham Penguins, I was shocked to see how Telltale reinvented him (even though he's kinda similar to Gotham's Penguin now). Jason Spisak did a great job turning Penguin into this suave, charming force that basically seeks out to destroy Bruce's life from the inside, and in a way makes him feel like the prototype Villain Joker! I love how if you go after Harvey in Ep. 4 when you face Penguin at the start of Ep. 5 Telltale molds him more into the classic Penguin, what with his monocle and his leg being screwed up by his father's statue falling on him. Also great that his father looks more like "traditional" Penguin too!
I'm also surprised that with your love of Harvey you didn't really give your opinion on his descent into more of a kinder Two-Face if you save him instead of Selina in Ep. 2. That's what I did in my playthrough because I DID NOT want Harvey to become Two-Face. I'm curious if you played through this route you could give me your opinion on it?
Onto Season 2, your critique was great! I also loved how you talked about managing to get close to Bane while at the same time feeling distant to Freeze, because I did the exact opposite! I played through that game seeing Bane as a threat to my cover, so I tried to get him kicked out every chance I could. Freeze was a great villain and probably my favorite member of The Pact behind Harley. I just wish he had something to do in Ep. 5 instead of just being essentially written out of the story in Ep. 4.
Finally, I'm also curious what were your thoughts on the ending choice of season 2 to give up Alfred or Batman. And if Telltale were to ever continue with a Season 3, how do you think they would tie these endings together?
Thank you again so much for making this video! If you want more Telltale Batman stuff, check out a comic called Batman: Sins of the Father. It takes place in between seasons 1 and 2 and is about Bruce chasing after Telltale's version of Deadshot, who was actually going to be an extra member of the Pact but got cut out of the game when it finally released!
Take care, dude! Can't wait to see what you do next!
I can't speak for the two-face route you chose but I did both Alfred and Batman endings. It's interesting because I feel like if you have up Batman, then in the following season we would have a Spiderman 2 type story where he ignores it but eventually is called to action and it gets Alfred in danger or drives them apart. Certainly something interesting to think about!
These were the first Telltale games I ever got. During episode 2 of the first season, my family even started getting into the story during the part where Penguin's men were after Selina at the bar.
I absolutely love your video and made me even love the villain joker even more than I did before. However, I feel like you missed the point of the Vigilante Joker. He does not become a hero because he has good intentions. It is because he admires Batman and also because he has violent tendencies that he channels it through and justifies his violence by becoming a vigilante and fighting for justice. When he sees that Batman does not approve of him, it breaks him. As he himself says, "I wanted to be so much like you."
I swear I wish we got a Spider-Man game like this.
Ok, i'm gonna be honest with you: this is AMAZING.
I'm halfway through the video and i absolutely adore it. Love your work, can't wait for your next vid, keep it up 🙏
Thank you so much! I'm glad you like it!
I REALLY hope there will be a season 3 of this, now that Telltale is back and still has Batman IP.
Thank you! It's so hard to find people talk about my second favorite game.
I'm gonna make a Hightops films kind of video on this game ONLY for the Joker. The entire game is great, but, the Joker in this is INSANE
Send me a link when it's finished!
Did you ever make the video? I would be intrigued in seeing it.
@@PulseBladeenjoyer Oh shit. I totally forgot about it. I had wrote out the script, but couldn't find a way to talk about it accurately. I might actually try it again.
I just couldn't sell Catwoman out to the Pact in episode 3...also if you go to the Blacksite as Batman you get the best fight scenes in the whole season with Batman fighting both Bane and Freeze at the same time. And winning.
By the end when you mentioned Bruce visiting J.Doe (and the hush theory) in the vigilante ending I was really surprised. In my playthrough I had assumed Bruce went there because I had abandoned being Batman and was trying to help as Bruce instead. Funny what you assume.
Happy 7th Anniversary Batman : The Telltale Series.
I love Villian route but the one problem I have with it is how weak all the sudden batman gets. Like 4 thugs take him down lol could have had Joker catch Batman in a trap instead.
My relationship with Waller didn't end up being nearly as good as yours. We left on really bad terms and she didn't do anything for me. And it's not even because I chose to work with Gordon because I didn't. It's just that we argued a lot over everything even though we were working together and I refused to surrender John.
I had a decent relationship with Waller. It was full of respect. I did the villain ending. I always put her in her place and gave her the cold shoulder, but I was always on the level and honest when it came down to it. I also told her at the very end that if my identity ever got released, I’d be gunning for her first. She basically said, trust me I do NOT want to be on that side of your anger, and I would expect nothing less.In the end, I got to determine the futures for Avesta, Selina, and Gordon.
I've been telling people for years this is Not favorite Telltale Game but My Favorite Batman Game!
I love the original take on the penguin I always thought as being one of Gotham's five families him and Bruce should know each other better
I never really liked Vicky veil she was always a Lois Lane knocked off (
why do so many female love interests in superheroes have to be reporter Iris West April O'Neil Lois Lane Vicki Vale)
Anyway the original villain they made her was perfect.
I always wondered where she got her training from my idea for season 3 was she returns and it's revealed she was trained by the court of owls and she is back with them.
And Batman will have to form a uneasy alliance with the pack
So no matter which ending you pick with Joker vigilante or villain it will fit they have to team up for the sequel!.
Also have you read the comic book that takes place in between Seasons called sins of the father?
I'm glad you enjoyed it! I just finished reading Sins of the Father recently, really loved it!
Hard disagree with the ending. Villain Joker was boring in that it was typical and predictable.
Vigilante felt more perosnal for me because i was playing to save/befriend john. So watching him slip away was way worse. Him becoming a twisted conflicted imitation of you felt WAYYY better. Like a little brother or child gone down the wrong path. Ends in a quick and dirty hostage crisis. Felt natural.
The villain ending felt like they did it just to fit the comics. Hes suddenly smart, leading harley and sinister? Meh. An elaborate set of traps, taunting on speaker, a fun house. It just felt soooo tired. Felt lame having all the twists and turns and struggles to have it end up the same place every batman story ends.
But i just played for the first time last week and didnt know they advertised the split. Never looked up these games. Bought on a whim. So i natutally played and got Vigilante. im SURE our perceptions and play style has alot to do with what we think was the most effective ending. Thanks for the review and the interviews!
Before I go on this long rant, I just want to say well done man. This obviously took a lot of hard work and dedication to make and it shows, the quality here is amazing. I'm amazed at how I agree and disagree with a lot of your choices and opinions but I still gain a new insight into that scene that I wouldn't have before. For example, I prefer to take the blame at the end of episode 3 to save Selina, I love their relationship and I wanted it to prosper. I felt like that was what my Bruce Wayne would do and I love how you brought that up throughout the video. You include us but also distinguish your own choices and opinions too. You mention how blaming Catwoman would save more lives and it's true but I love seeing this version of Bruce Wayne, the man who will do anything for the woman he loves. And this is only one of many versions of the character. The game is beautifully designed to mold your version. I bet you could put 10 people in a room who played the games and all of them felt different about a choice or their Bruce is far different to yours. This video made me realise how big and free the game let's you be in terms of characterization in characters despite being a linear game. You will always get from A to B, but the journey is never the same. By the way I think that when it comes to Vigilante Joker, I think his characterization comes from a place of wanting to be accepted by Bruce, no matter the cost. He uses his abilities to hurt people for revenge or getting even, he completely misses the point of being a hero because he can't get rid of these urges that are dug deep into the core of his character. I still think that Villain Joker is great, I just slightly prefer vigilante for trying something new and in my opinion it paid off. Also there is way less casualties in vigilante route, I remember villain route having a high death count. Selina is in more of villain route though compared to vigilante but you do get to say I love you to her in vigilante, hmm hard choice. Don't judge me, I love Batcat. I hope their relationship is developed more in the potential season 3. Sorry if I went off in different directions here, I just wanted to express my feelings towards this really well done critique. You're the first person to tackle this series in a video essay format(at least to my knowledge anyway) and I don't know if anyone will top you. Its criminal that this series doesn't get the attention it deserves, thank you for shining a light on it. Also its awesome that you got both Joker and Harley in the video, that's awesome! I'll definitely watch the interview now. So once again, congratulations man, you got yourself a new subscriber. Keep up the great work.
Thank you so much for this, it made my day ♥️! Don't fret about going off on a tangent, I love reading feedback and other experiences like yours. I hope one day Telltale Batman reaches more of the TH-cam scene that it deserves
@@ProductionJournal I'm glad I made your day, I love giving content creators the praises they deserve
Also not going to lie, I had to same theory as you about Telltale making another game because of their Twitter account haha, I just happened to come across it today and I was like "ITS HAPPENING". I think it will happen because it's one of Telltale's most popular properties so it would be ridiculous to pass up an opportunity to make more. I just think it will take time due to The Wolf Among Us season 2 being made first which is being developed entirely instead of the episodic format. This will obviously extend the release date so I'm predicting that we will get news of a season 3 at the end of the year or early next year. A man can dream
I know what you mean about all that. Usually Batman/Bruce Wayne is an unlikable closed off dick but in this one we have the option to make him be a more likable and open hero person who actually expresses his feelings for someone like Selina/Catwoman. I only hope we can get to make that go even further in the 3rd season if they ever finally make it after they're finished with The Wolf Among Us season 2 right now.
@@gibbs615 Yes we need more, I hope they don't do the cliche batman can't be happy because of his code so he breaks it off with Selina. I don't mind if your choices result in a breakup but the player should be rewarded if they manage to get a full romance
This popped up in my recommended just now and I was not disappointed. Great video!
Thank you for watching!
Even love letters like this one don't quite acknowledge the inherent honesty of inverting the dynamic between Harley and Joker, because a trained pscyhiatrist is in a terrifying and unique position to manipulate their patient. Especially one that's infatuated with them. Joker's manipulation of Harley in the animated series not only doesn't seem like something Joker would do, it certainly doesn't feel like something Joker _could_ do to an educated, compassionate career woman. We suspend disbelief, in part because we already know they are together. In this version suspension of disbelief is not necessary, it's a very real and very scary prospect that ramps up the believability of the relationship dynamic. One that still exists in a familiar state but with a current that flows in the opposite direction.
I remember first playing this game thinking it was going to be a fairly traditional Batman story with a little twist here and there. But holy crap was I blown away by the originality and fresh take on these characters!
" somewhat scared somewhat turned on by harley quinn "
most true statment you ever said
That Outro was perfect. The Batman was my childhood cartoon.
Thank you so much! The Batman was an awesome show!
I saw this video on my recommendations, and I said, hell yeah I'll watch this.
Absolute legend ♥️🙌
@@ProductionJournal nah mate. You the legend.
I played Season 2 putting morality above all else and proving Waller that you don't have to do things her way. I trusted Gordon, but didn't trust Waller. I made it clear to Waller that I would not compromise my morality to do so.
I was nicer to Freeze than to Bane. Freeze's motivation comes from a place of love, same as Batman. For Freeze, it's love and loyalty to his wife. For my Bruce and Batman, it was a loyalty to Gordon and John, and love for Catwoman.
I prioritized the safety of Catwoman and John above all else, as I played Season 1 with Selina as more than a friend and a valuable ally. She is, deep down, a good person and worth redemption. I had faith that she would hold up her end as she did in the first game. I ended up in a stalemate with Waller, but secured Selina her freedom in return.
As for John, I desperately (and naively) believed that Joker would not consume him. I was wrong, but also decided to tell him that I believed him to be a friend. What can I say? I believe that someone even as deranged as John, who was at one time quite lovable, could be redeemed. Maybe one day he could be, but his anger blinded him to the truth.
As for Tiffany, she became one of the Agency's goons, but with doubts that she made the correct decision. I decided not to reveal Batman's true identity to her, as I thought I was protecting her from the fate that befell Lucius, but perhaps I made a mistake on that front. Maybe I should've trusted her. I trusted Selina with the Batcave after all, and Catwoman is a bit of an anti-hero.
If he dose get redeemed or turned into a minor villan. It's gonna take a while. Probably years or so. (Considering one chose the vigilante path.) He murdered alot of people. Though we can see he regrets his actions, and I did hear if you took this route he would be more like 60s joker. The kind that didn't kill, but was just a menice. I don't know if I am right in that department. Still I wish the best for him. (I'm saying this about a fictional character. Help me)
This is the ultimate review for this series 🤝
I personally think the beauty of the two endings is that there probably won’t be a season 3. Couldn’t imagine it being handled better than the Walking Dead season 2 split ending.
Now this is a Critique! enjoyed every minute dude! well done
this video is incredibly good for such a small channel dude kudos
I love batman season 1 and 2 and I want a season 3
NGL I kind of wish we got a Season 3
Imagine seeing the Court of Owls, driving a detective horror narrative that pays off the themes of the other seasons
I really love this series and I'm really happy that you made the video. Great work!
Thanks for this video, loved it.
Way too much I could say about these games so I will be brief - this is my favorite version of the Batman mythos. I love the bravery of all changes & I actually love most of the changes in their own rights. Telltale made a fresh, unique take on the characters yet one that was true (in some cases, more true) to the spirit of them. The choices were important because they allowed you to be your preferred version of Batman - how you view him, what you think the character should be
This was a good series, and season 2 ended on such a big cliffhanger, I hope new Telltale can do a season 3, and incorporate Tiffany and the boy found in Lady Arkhams family home as the new Robin, and Batgirl into his new Batfamily Maybe Alfred will return better, or maybe Bruce will visit him when his condition worsens
Idk bout the boy from the house
@@minato_arisato3751 Why?
@@Jshaw71 because that's stupid it was years ago in canon he would ga e already been adopted by someone else
@@minato_arisato3751 I didn't know that, maybe he wasn't adopted though, and besides most games to stick to a time table unless they want to, so I wouldn't call it stupid...
@@Jshaw71 no it's definitely to late for him
Haven’t even watched this yet but know it’s gonna be amazing!
Been looking forward to this for a long time now and it looks as though you’ve done it absolute justice. Congrats man.
within five minutes of starting this, i was already tearing up lol. the series is phenomenal, your analysis was very thoughtful, & the love put into the construction of the video as a whole is incredible. great work!!
I can admit I also got quite emotional writing and editing this haha! Thank you so much for the kind words, I'm glad I got to share that sentiment with you
I always go back and forth between whether I like this or arkham better. This really made me feel as if I was Batman. I felt every desicions weight. I felt like I was really Bruce and I felt some of how stressful being Batman can be.
Agreed with you on the villain path. Great work on that "The Batman"-style intro at the end!
Thank you! ♥️
I LOVE both season of Batman Telltale :)
I disagree 1000% on the "villain path is better than "vigilante path". It even kinda hurts. I would never hurt a friend like that. Plus the path is so much more satisfying in my opinion and so fresh. I don't understand though. Why would you or anyone else hurt someone that much? The villain path made me think Bruce is not a good person and I shouldn't feel that. What he did and what other youtubers did to John was awful. I don't see Bruce actually doing that. I actually think its out of character and so harsh.
Agree to disagree. I enjoyed both routes just my personal preference was the villain one. I actually liked that feeling of guilt throughout the route, made me feel bad for my choices and that made it better for me personally
@@ProductionJournal Sorry if I went too far. John is like literally my best friend so it hurts to see people be rude to him.
@@TheGamerRist22 No haha I completely relate with that. John is so loveable!!
@@ProductionJournal Thanks. Just wanna say I don't think the Villain path is bad. It's excellent. I just think the Vigilante path is the better choice.
@@TheGamerRist22 I agree completely with you.
It's obvious that the Villian Joker ending focused on John/Joker's feelings for Bruce and how John loves Bruce more than Harley, and will always choose him over Harley. We see examples of this when John wants to discuss giving the laptop to Bruce at the cafe, when he helps Bruce find Harley, when he wants to willingly side with Bruce on taking down Harley at the bridge while at the funhouse, when he gives up the locations of all the bombs to Gordan just so he can have Batman/Bruce, and in doing so Harley won't get what she wanted to stop her insanity, thus betraying her. Joker also betrays Harley when he leaves her alone to flee after the dinner fight, and when he keeps Bruce's identity as batman a secret from Harley.
So, Joker didn't hate Bruce. It was the opposite. The villian route mirrors that of Death of the Family with how Joker was acting like a crazy jealous ex that was mad that Bruce/Batman was close with everyone else but him. Joker is doing all these twisted games just so Bruce knows how it feels to be betrayed by someone. As well as testing Bruce's own moralities with how he's associated with liars, thieves, and murderers, yet was too good for him. And despite everything he put Bruce through, he still cares about him deeply when Harley is about to kill him twice with activating the bomb. He wanted to play more mind games reading into Bruce just to dodge him getting killed.
As for the Vigilante Joker ending, this route focused moreso on Bruce's feelings for John. And throughout the season, Alfred picks up on John's desire to be close to Bruce and how he would do anything for him. It's the same in the vigilante route. But, it's not just Batman and Joker's relationship that's focused on, there's also the showdown with Waller which was supposed to happen, Iman Avesta changing sides, and the agency storyline that was going on before episode 5 with them being corrupt. The vigilante ending ties up eveything in the story, meanwhile the villian ending only focuses on Joker being the villain and every other storyline is pushed aside. Anthony Ingruber was right about the vigilante route making more sense and how it seems to be the canon route seeing how it focuses on everything that was given to us throughout the story.
Plus, can't go wrong with Bruce visiting John at the asylum in the end. :)
And I also agree with you on Bruce being cruel in the villain route being ooc. That's why Bruce constantly trying to apologize to John and stating how he never meant to hurt him is only right. I also made it to the point where I trusted him as much as possible but had to have doubts at the bridge where it's actually more heartbreaking when John turns into a villain. John would mistakenly think that Bruce pretended to trust him when in reality I make it as though Bruce trusted him about defending himself but had doubts he could take down Harley due to Harley's manipulative nature. This outcome lessens John's pain a bit at least.
I hope a S3 happens one day. Loved this game. Both seasons. Telltale Batman unexpectedly became my favorite take on the Dark Knight story and universe.
Yes…I have what humans call…hope
what an absolutely well crafted video, it's easy to tell how much effort you and the voice actors put into this video and how much you have a genuine love for the characters. You deserve way more subscribers (seems like you're gaining quite a few as of the moment)
Aw thank you so much! 😊
Yea id rather that not be Hush. Completely ruins my satisfaction for the vigilante route
He might not be cut out for Hero work but atleast their friendship still exists which is what I fought so hard for in the route.
the soundtrack was a banger
Wow This is a great analogy I can tell this took a long time to make it's awesome
An amazing video and that ending made it even better. I LOVE the 2003-2004 Batman and it works so well with this game
Thank you!
Can't believe the new Batman movie will be based on this story.
The game got me to abandon being Batman for Alfred without having a single doubt. That's not easy in a batman story.
Man, I *really* want a season 3 :(
I’ve really only watched one play through, but the way I understand the antihero route is that it’s the ending you get if you genuinely try to prevent John from becoming the Joker…only for all your efforts to be in vein, but with a glimmer of hope as Bruce visits him in Arkham
This is awesome. Great job, man!
also: Anthony still looks soooo much like Harrison Ford.