Blue is not as strong as he claims. How could he improve?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ย. 2024
- Thanks for watching! I was always wondering about how strong the rival really is in Red and Blue, and I decided to find out! Much of this will be extremely subjective, based on strategy and judgement, but I think the rationale should hold up for most people.
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As usual, interesting concept for a video! Unless the sources I'm using are incorrect, Gyarados did not learn Thrash at all, in Gen 1, so that's why Blue's never had it.
thanks! yeah there's any anomaly there: his gyarados does have thrash in tower, yet there is no tutoring or tm for thrash, hence blue is a cheater
@@tortoisecity Not to keep "harping" on this, but your comment got me curious; what tower are you talking about? Is it something from Pokémon Stadium? Because I've never owned that but, as far as I can see, his Gyarados doesn't have Thrash even there, but maybe I'm missing something.
no - you are correct! the serebii page for the fights, which I used for some of the information in this video, is incorrect, and lists gyarados as knowing thrash in the pokemon tower rival fight. I went to check using the game and the gyarados appears to know the moveset listed on bulbapedia including hydro pump, leer, bite, and dragon rage. I will this comment to serve as a correction!
@@tortoisecity Ah, so that's where this mix-up came from! Yeah, Serebii is great but, for some of its in-game data, it doesn't always have the correct info, especially for the older titles.
Again, though, totally not a big deal at all: I was just trying to see why there was this mix-up considering even the sets you were showing on screen did not reflect Thrash being there.
a counter argument for cerulean cave is that you went into the league a few moments after he gained his champion title in that case blue would have no time to explore cerulean cave
a fair point - tbf a mewtwo would obviously be an improvement, but he's hardly weak for just having alakazam
I think giving him a Dodrio is also a good option for his team in the Sylph Co. battle. It's overall better than Fearow, and it also learns Drill Peck
actually a really valid point
I think the reason pokemon like arcanine have bad movesets is because when they are give to the ai trainer they didnt bother to adjust their movesets so it just gets 4 early moves and learns nothing as if the growlithe was immediately evolved with fire stone. dont know why rhydon has both tail whip and leer though.
maybe so, but his other pokemon don't automatically learn new moves (see bulbasaur not learning razor leaf) so I feel there is some adjustment of ai movesets
Neat analysis video! Thanks for uploading!
11:11 IS Wing Attack good enough? In Gen 1, it's only 35 base power. No joke.
11:33 It could be a meta thing; Many stone evolutions have limited level-up movepools AFTER evolving, so waiting to evolve them can be worthwhile.
13:13 Unevolved Pokemon learn moves at lower levels, so MAYBE Blue REALLY wanted... uh, Leer or Take Down earlier? It already has Tail Whip, though. Maybe he just doesn't want Rhyhorn wagging its tail instead of leering cooly when he wants it to lower DEF?
14:03 If he had the time. It's implied he JUST became Champion.
14:55 The moves are mostly level-up moveset order. Rhyhorn gets Take Down at Level 55 but Rhydon gets it at Level 64. At Level 61, a Rhydon has those 4 moves.
15:13 Gen 1 was kinda thrown together, & Rhydon, IIRC was 1 of the first designed Pokemon. First in the internal index, too. Maybe it was Normal-type early on? Or they were just negligent....
15:33 Aside from Wing Attack's low BP in Gen 1 & the alternatives being Fly & Sky Attack, crazily enough Aerodactyl could NOT learn Rock Slide until Generation 3. Lance's got it in Gen 2, but no other Aerodactyl could until Gen 3, in a seemingly massive oversight. Its 1st Rock STAB was... Ancient Power in Gen 2.
genuinely, I had no idea that wing attack was 35 power, that's nuts. waiting to evolve until certain levels is valid, as for vileplume, so I can see that case. Rhydon's movepool is just baffling. I could see Rhydon being normal type and then changed to being rockground later on, and that's a shame for aero, let it be good like it should be
@@tortoisecity Yeah, with so many mons to balance, especially early on, it's almost unsurprising some of the tragedies that transpired along the way, lol.
You know in the Pokemon Origins OVA series, where Mewtwo yeets Blue's Blastoise on top of him, crushing his Pokedex in the process? He's done dirty, like Anakin being denied the rank of Master. But it probably makes sense given his team's abysmal moves.
his team's movesets are just bizarre, they make zero sense but damn that's brutal
@@tortoisecity But to be fair, the choice of moves in Gen 1 was generally garbage.
yeah, they relied really heavily on normal type moves for most mons, so those that do get good stab moves really benefit from it
I don’t disagree necessarily, but sand attack spam is more than enough for Blue to be considered my most despised gaming fight of all time. I dread each time I play a Red romhack and every time I have to face him…..
Side note: Pokémon PureRed and Pokémon Red++ are phenomenal hacks. I tried them recently.
oh sand attack spam has killed several of my speedruns in the last week, I certainly do not like him
13:48
I could counter the addition of Mewtwo with Blue literally just becoming the Champion. He doesn't have time to go get Mewtwo to add to his team.
Yeah that was mostly a tongue in cheek suggestion
For the algorithm!!!
bless you
Lets be fair, most of this is gen 1 limitations. the movesets for example for some odd reason were never customized in red and blue barring ace pokemon. This could have easily been changed, at the very least they could have given each of his final pokemon 1 of the TM moves from the Gym leaders, showing his progression. Mewtwo would not chronically make sense as he becomes champ only a few minutes before you do. Also red and blue love level 16 Raticate which makes me wonder if it was originally supposed to evolve there. I think the game should have added more pokemon to his team while also keeping their levels balanced. it never made sense to me why a pokedex holder didnt have a team of 6 till near the end. He even uses the abra in the Cerulean City battle despite it only knowing teleport so to say he is knowingly holding back what he is using in the battle wouldnt always make sense either.
yeah there are overall some really odd team and move design choices that can't be explained as just gen one being quirky imo
yeah I don't want to seem like i was criticizing the abra choice heavily, it's a good choice and your explanation makes sense, especially since he has a kadabra very soon after
Oh, yes, Vaporeon. Did you know that in terms of...
no nope nuh uh we're not doing this
In gen 1, Growlithe learns Flamethrower at lv 50. So in defense of Blue, he is waiting until that level to get that move then evolving Growlithe.
Thats my theory anyway.
this is really the only justification for waiting, but a good one since arcanine with flamethrower in gen one is busted
@@tortoisecity An even more busted Arcanine is Agility, Dragon Rage, Fire Blast, and Dig at lv 20.
Remember Pika Cup in Pokemon Stadium *shudders*
Correctly, I believe gen 1 rival does not use any type of TM in his pokemons.
He does as his blastoise knows blizzard from what I remember
@@beastmachineFola Yeah, blue's sandslash also knows earthquake and jolteon/magneton have thunderbolt in yellow. My mistake.
2:16
Not sure why Butterfree wouldn't be allowed
I mean, sure it's not a psychic type, but he's still using it for psychic moves so it gets psychic coverage.
He also doesn't use another Bug type, though he does use another FLying type, so there is that
He can just have the Butterfree on for until he evolves Abra or gets Drowsee
I mean I set the criteria for how I was going to look at this and said type specificity was important, hence Butterfree's exclusion, but otherwise yeah I agree that Butterfree is definitely an improvement on Abra
I like what you tried to do here, it's interesting to think about a different timeline with other pokemon for Blue. Personally, I would rather him keeping his starter and having the pokemon he catched in the team for the next battle to see them evolve. So I would keep them permanently and make the team this way whoever he choses to replace Rattata or Growlithe, for example.
Thanks, and I think that's a valid approach!
Improve is quite easy. Making his team actually good requires a HUGE improvement, though.
undoubtedly, though good is quite subjective, depending on how you look at it. RBY OU meta good? different to good for what is available good (OU would be a different story for a different day)
I beg to differ on the nugget bridge rival. Sure pidgeotto has higher stats, but spearow matches it in speed and attack and, importantly, pidgeotto doesn't have any flying moves by level 18, whereas spearow starts with peck.
this is true, but quick attack is still a stab move for pidgeotto and priority is a definite advantage, so I'd still err on the side of pidgeotto for the nugget bridge fight when balanced against the better overall stats
with a lot of these choices i disagree with. what i really think of is MR.Mime and Arodactyl, it is implied that the ones you the player get are the only ones in Kanto, there i don't really get why MR.Mime would be so rare, when it it comes to Arodyctil it is us who take the fossil to the resurrection place
I mean it's not unfair to say that he could get access to those pokemon elsewhere, but the premise for each change is that they are pokemon we know he could access, and we know that he could get them through those means, just not exclusively through those means
I agree with Mr. Mime, but Lance does have an Aerodactyl. And that doesn't make sense because the museum in pewter city is still studying the old amber when you get it, meaning he had one revived and didn't tell anyone or he somehow got one revived after yours and trained it up between you being in Cinnabar and reaching him in the league.
I feel like his champion battle team in Red/Blue is very good strategically. I still use it today
it has good type balance for sure, though the moveset choices are absolutely baffling
@@tortoisecity definitely
In defense of the pidgeot - my favorite bird from generation 1 - of all three birds (pidgeot/fearow/dodrio) he is the most bulky and the only one who has access to quick attack and sand attack: His purpose in the team is a “first check” of what type of Pokémon the enemy uses. He is strong enough to hurt or even kill (with a quick attack killshot) less tough mons or weaken them with sand attack, after which it he uses the pokemon that has the type advantage over you.
this is the fairest defense of pidgeot I could see, so well done
No mention of Dodrio? It has higher overall stats than fearow and higher attack than aerodactyl, while also having drill peck. I think it's a better choice for the silph co battle, and a much better choice for the rt 22 and champion battle, since it would have strong normal stab in Tri Attack by that time. (Although for the champion fight I'd argue you could give him zapdos or articuno)
all are definitely better options for pidgeot late game, since pidgeot is just plain bad, not very good at all
Wigglytuff would be a good choice since I’m pretty sure the rival uses him in Pokemon Stadium.
it's probably stunted here by being a lower overall level, but yeah wiggly is good
Personally I think his team would be miles better if he got a golem instead of rhydon, dodrio for pidgeot and had maybe a magmar instead of the useless arcanine
arcanine theoretically could be good, but otherwise yes agreed
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Raging Tauros.
Tauros is really good
Gyarados is not even close to best water type what are you talking about. Starmie and Slowbro are miles better, though I do agree with not giving him them, as they don’t fit his vibe at all. I would recommend, however, swapping it for Tentacruel. Gen 1 Tentacruel is significantly better than Gyrados thanks to wrap and some damn good stats, and arguably fits his vibr better than Gyarados
Giving him Clefable or Wigglytuff are complete mismatches with his personality
I also think Fearow over Pidgeot or Aerodacytl is a good idea. Aerodacytl is already prominently featured with Lance, and I also can’t see Blue going through the effort to revive it. Fearow fits him far better than Pidgeot, and actually gets strong STAB unlike the others.
Also he was champ for 2 minutes no way he’d get to cerulean cave nearly that fast lol
yeah ik, the cerulean cave bit is totally unrealistic, but a very funny idea. I think gyarados is pretty solid, but tbh gen one's water types are all super good
Most busted generation 1 team (without legendaries) would be Tauros, Snorlax, Chansey, Alakazam, Exeggutor, and Starmie.
I was curious about your inclusion of exeggutor, but I see that 125 special and 95 atk and fair enough
@@tortoisecity yep, sleep powder, stun spore, toxic, psychic, mega drain, leech seed, explosion, double edge, hyperbeam. A lot you can do with movesets with that one.
@cameronl1859 you’d be hard pressed to find a team that could match up to that one, frankly. Counters can sound great in theory, but practice would be the true determinant. They’re the big 6 for many reasons. And it’s not close.
@cameronl1859 alakazam would counter gengar and Tauros would get jynx
@cameronl1859 alakazam vs gengar is more often than not going in alakazam’s favor due to better special, speed, and stab psychic. Gen 1 hypnosis is missing quite often, so depending on a slower, inaccurate move vs a powerful and super effective priority stab move isn’t it. And I like how you didn’t even try to argue Tauros vs Jynx due to the normal stab with high attack and higher speed vs an atrocious defense stat. You’re just arguing to argue thinking your input is going to trump decades of results.
I mean, if you want to give him a strong team, give him Nidoking after Mt Moon 😂
you'd have to make sure he buys 13 x accs and picks up horn drill as well though!
You'll be hearing from my lawyer about you not talking about if the Rival could have a stronger Team 5 seconds after he got his starter 😤
you'll be seeing my cease and desist after defaming me like that
So… Pokemon Yellow Legacy?
or any number of other difficulty hacks
You say speedrun, but we know you gave him bulbasaur because it's the best of the starters 😂
haha yeah bulbasaur good yep totally
Vbell with high speed and razor leaf is the best grass type in gen 1
it's pretty solid, but can't ever really be that fast with base 70 speed
If he could have a Flareon at tower then why not Arcanine or Ninetales? Same story with the leaf stone for Victreebel and Vileplume. Also I'd argue that Kadabra is still a better choice than Mr Mime considering the much better speed and special. With psychic being available I can't imagine most things standing in Kadabra's way. Hell you could just evolve it to Alakazam at that point too considering there's not badge or progress limitations.
a fair point regarding kadabra, especially considering evolving is not and should not be a barrier, and reasonable to say to he could stone evolve earlier, but I was looking at it in the sense of keeping his team roughly at the levels and relative strength of the rest of his team at that point, but definitely a fair way to look at it
potato
tomato
1:48 - Oh shoot! A PokeTuber who can actually pronounce Rattata correctly?! No illiterate, moronic-sounding _"Ruh-tatta"_ coming from a PokeTuber for once? Here, take this Upvote.
And really, Blue's team would be good if he just had access to TMs. But not counting starters, I'd say he should have Starmie, Arcanine, Execggutor, Alakazam, Machamp, and Rhydon, plus TM moves on all of them. Gengar would be alright if this wasn't gen 1, so it has no access to offensive Ghost moves and basically would be an inferior Psychic type.
that's a solid team! I'd counter with alakazam, alakazam, alakazam, alakazam, alakazam, and alakazam, but there are plenty of good options
ehh Machamp is worse than Gengar; especially since Gar's Ghost typing gives it a Normal immunity, allowing it to be immune to half the moves in the game
also Gengar has access to the fastest gen 1 sleep and decent coverage moves in Thunderbolt and Mega Drain, as well as Psychic (coming off it's huge special to boot)
compared to Machamp, who is slow, has no good STAB moves, and whose physical coverage is ehh (with Earthquake being the best accurate move it has for damage, and Rock Slide to hit Flying types; but these don't do very much damage to most Pokémon that are neutral to the EdgeQuake combo, and Rhydon has STAB on all of these moves anyways).
to prove my point, Gengar is OU in generation 1, but Machamp is in... the same tier as Seaking and Porygon in gen 1 (PU)
i wold be intersted i seeing your take on his stadium teams
stadium is a whole different ball game imo, but would be very interesting!