Stainless Impeller Repair Part 1
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ย. 2024
- This job will be a short video series on repairing a damaged stainless steel impeller. The impeller was dropped which bent the seal ring. My plan is to weld up the bent section and turn it back to size but going deeper into the repair I find that I will have to come up with another plan of attack to complete the job.
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Your father and grandfather look down and are proud of you.
You are an amazing machinist and a person love the videos of you and your wife
You two always look like your having fun.
Your repair idea of sleeving it was what the machinist mates on board in the Navy did to fix our impellers from the engine room.
Isn't that a bit overkill ? Wouldn't it be possible to chuck it by inner circle where it is bent ? Or alternatively mount it to the mill with rotary table ?
I did this for a long time on pumps before I retired. Thanks for the videos ABOM, I miss my job more than ever and you take me back to work. The only problem with shrinking a band is the thickness at the shoulder where the machined area ends. When you turn it down, it gets so thin it weakens the impellor and the "snout" breaks off. I would turn it down, like you say and put back in the positioner and weld the whole snout up and turn it back down to size. It will take a while, but I have fixed many SS and brass impellors this way. Good luck, and thanks again for the videos.
we do such jobs all the time and we just turn the impeller clean and make a new seal ring in the housing with the correct tolerance.
Welding is the original 3D Printing!
Your videos are seriously one of the most entertaining things on TH-cam! Thanks for the hard work and knowhow!
You would make an excellent teacher. Thank you for sharing your craft with us.
I love the slow motion chip throwing. Great shots!
I am impressed by your camera, and the segment of close up on the weld.
I loved watching that thread cutting. glorious in slow motion. As always, fascinating things that have us all pondering along with you!
After 44 years in maintenance at a large chemical plant I would have beat the seal ring out closer to round and ground off anything that rubbed the casing. You should see what a 24” pipe wrench will do to an impeller. I enjoy all of your TH-cam
Watching Adam make fixturing rigs and dial in parts is a delight. I'm the sort of electrician that enjoys measured drilling and tapping as much as programming and designing controls. Precision is satisfying. Thanks for giving me many hours of enjoyment on this channel.
Great job . That seal area runs in clearance to the housing on the pumps we have , not a critical area . Cheers .
It was great to see you with Steve Summers this week.
Dangit, you left us with a cliffhanger! 😄 Well I'll be waiting for the next video, as usual.
Mój pradziadek był takim fachowcem jak ty. Oglądając twoje filmy i patrząc na stare zdjęcia pradziadka widzę tą samą pasję i to że on i ty lubicie to . wielki szacunek dla ciebie za to że pokazujesz to na swoim kanale. pozdrawiam z Polski
I love the way these videos allow the viewer to really see what is going on in the welding process. Maybe if these had been available when I was trying to learn to weld a million years ago I might have been able to create a decent weld-- a skill I never acquired.
I used to do a ton of these, all shapes and sizes, and exactly the one you are doing, out of cast iron, duplex, ss etc.
Whenever there was a damaged ring like that, or bad enough porosity, you’ve gotta weld the entire ring. Another tip would be to get a set of soft jaws and make them the size of the shroud OD. That should also be turned true to the bore. The MAIN thing is, that bore has got to be within .0005” TIR radially and axially along the bore when you machine that ring concentric. I guarantee you (the customer) will have a balancing issue and in petrochemical applications like this it’s got to be high tolerance for stuff like that. Doing impellers that are dual suction are a bit interesting. Balancing volute centre lines with the eyes/bores. The mandrels I find can be good for when you just cannot chuck onto anything else, but like you said, the marring and fitment and not being able to monitor/set a dead centre line for run out is imperative to do. So best to chuck the OD of that shroud. I usually don’t see either the shrouds non-machined unless it’s an investment casting.
Anyways, cool seein some of the old stuff I used to do lol
I would have thought the seal surface is the one the manufacturer would be the most careful with! Seeing the run out that big is puzzling. Can't wait to see the fix.
I love seeing the pump related machining videos. They remind me of my Dad, who is still manual machining at 82. He got me hired on by a pump repair company many years ago. I learned pump sizing and repair knowledge from that. I now share my 25 years of experience to others.
When you hear "drop" I think of like table height but I guess it could have fallen like 100 feet at some chemical plant haha
It wouldn't have to fall that far to get that kind of damage, you would be surprised what knocking something off a table will do to a part
I work at a machine shop and Ive had to scrap parts because I dropped them
What arm rest is that?
@@TheDandyMann - In around 1960, I can recall an incident from when I first worked in a machine shop (actually the toolroom of a fairly sizeable family business). I was set to doing all the usual things that an ignorant newbie gets: sorting scrap, inventorying the tooling, gopher, assembling shelving, and the like. One day it was take this over there; now “this” was a flywheel for a small stamping press. It was about 2 feet in diameter and a few inches thick; it had gear teeth formed around the edge and an irregular cam groove milled into one face. Being a brainless teen, I hefted it and decided I could carry it across the shop. So, I have it clasped to my chest and set off. About then I stepped on a bit of round stock that some one had left on the floor. I knew I was going down and wanted to save the workpiece with all its expensive machine work, so I twisted as I fell to catch the flywheel on my chest. It was a slow fall and I had quite a bit of control as I hit the ground so I didn’t rap my head and was able to slow the flywheel with my arms so it didn’t hit my chest too hard, but I did lay there for a bit, recovering. You never saw such commotion; they thought they had killed the grandson of the owner (family business, remember). I was OK, but I got a serious reaming out and instructions to get help with heavy objects. (But I DID save that flywheel.)
@@PeterWMeek Thanks for that story, I thoroughly enjoyed it 👍
Spray it because I enjoy watching you master the fire.
Thank you Adam I always enjoy watching your I am from South Africa
That was unexpected to find it so far out. Your getting a chance to turn it into an awesome little project.
Interesting project Adam, I’m fascinated to see how you solve it! Thanks!
I like the fact that you showed us this video, and all the challenges with machining/fabrication/mechanics. Sometimes you get an hour into the job and have to totally re-think the project from scratch...plus you are filming it, so you can't hide your mistakes. Keep making these videos and I'll keep watching. Hopefully my videos will get as good as yours soon.
Just for your information Adam.
The diameter you welded has nothing to do with a *seal* it is purely there as a wear area or wear band, the correct repair would be to turn the area undersize and shrink fit a new wear band and turn it true to the bore, welding introduces stresses to the welded area and changes the qualities of the parent steel. (30 years in the centrifugal pump trade).
May I suggest how we deal with similar problems in our service department at dealership? Place on arbor first. Use tailstock live center. Using a burnishing roller boring bar & some heat, roll out the warp dent from the I.D.
This would straightens & true the dent. You may have made things worse by cold welding that buildup which only pulls in when cool contracting. Pay attention or pay cash! Like we say to our customers!
Same thing I did too with my Eastman. Ol Jody is a pretty good dude.
Hi! Actually I do this job as a living.
And it's standard practice to weld them if damaged of worn.
I work at one of the biggest international pump brands. The material is not stainless as such, but probably what's kalled duplex. (You can check if it's magnetic then it is duplex.)Aldogh i don't think it matters if you use stainless filler. And the clearance differs of course but somewhere around 0.50mm is my guess on this type of wheel. (From the wheel to the wear ring in the pump housing.) We never sleeve them because it's coming loose often of heat in the media. And sometimes this type of process pumps gets dodgy stuff in the media, so they can be knocked of if you to it that way. What I would do is weld up the entire diameter and turn it to the right diameter. One lap of weld at the time (for even distribution of heat) and check the temp so you not warp it and then balance it .
Check the rpm of the pump motor.
It might be from an API pump made to material class A-7. A-8 calls explicitly for 316, but A-7 just calls for austenitic stainless.
RPM is most likely ~3600 (nominal) for an AC motor.
Building it up with weld, then turning the ID & OD of that collar to size would probably be the best solution.
What's not clear, and needs to be checked, is if the central bore is still perpendicular to the plane of the impeller disc. If that's off, presumably due to the impact, the impeller is effectively scrap.
@@chemech
I don't think that you need to scrap it! Just build up Whit weld so you can turn it true. As long as the axel hole is fine you should be good! And don't mind about the other wobbly surfaces, all wheels are born like this. I asked my boss about this when I starded working on sulzer, but in media this is not any problem. Mainly in the pulp Business this wheels are worn badly, but they are almost always saved.
@@burrefpv9273 It's a matter of relative costs... when the rebuild costs significantly more than the replacement cost, it's not economic to rebuild vs. replace.
Nice seeing you over on Steve's channel
Love that you got a “Bad Obsession Motorsport” sticker on your door.
There are trades which hold competition in completing a given series of tasks. Anyone want to guess who would win a turning contest? I have never seen anyone indicate a work piece in a four jaw chuck as quick as Adam. The kicker is he is not even trying for speed.
I think if you try to heat the ring and roll it on the lathe with some roller maybe it will take it's shape again and after all machine it take some thou to exact measure. Thank you abom79 you are our master
That was my first thought, too. True it up just like a wheel rim.
Do you see many young kids getting into your trade. I think you have a lot of knowledge to pass on. Perhaps these videos are part of that. But one on one training is important for our young kids. I really enjoy your videos!
SPRAY WELD!!! that shrink fittin' is for the birds, plus we know your itchin to get the old spray gun back in service.
It’s always the “ seemingly easy “ jobs that turn out to be much more involved . I just wish I could get this idea through my bosses heads lol Always enjoy your videos Adam I’ve learned a lot from watching them Thank You
If I might make a suggestion.
Weld/Machine the seal/wear ring on the rotor to a size preferably a standard size.
Mark the rotor with that size and then machine the housing for a wear/seal ring from a compatible non galling material to go in the housing.
Make the wear ring the consumable rather than their rotor.
Standard practice in various high usage industries and especially with slurry type pump users.
Great project, you are a font of some common sense practices that are lost to the world.
I work in the chemical industries where we have a lot of pumps, we usually weld these up and turn them to size instead of using sleeves.
Love that armrest setup.
The seal you are referring to is the cavitation sleeve, it dose not seat to a seal it fits inside another sleeve and with min clearance.
Correct. And as I'm sure you already know, the face of the impeller's neck has to be square to face of the wear ring (or surface) on the bowl in the volute. IIRC, the rule of thumb for the clearance of the inlet neck that he is working on is .012/in of inlet diameter (pretty generous) but you have to measure the bowl to establish a starting point.
@@Kucklehead223 Glad someone knows his impellers.
I find it very cool that, subconsciously, you rotate your chuck handle a certain way depending on if you're going to loosen or tighten the jaws before you get to pinion of the chuck
Been watching your videos since i got yt accct. Got some tips and tricks as well. More power to you.
Excellent slomo shot of threading, very much enjoyed it.
Holy crapoly Adam, can't wait to see what you figure out.
Awesome work mate always look forward to seeing more of your work
I always enjoy the camera work
Ah how often jobs go south midstream!
This is a $100 cheap casting that they sell to suckers for $1000 and here is this guy treating it like its a $100,000 part.
The bent area is call the wear ring. Their is a diametrical clearance to the stationary wear ring that is in the pump casing. We just machine the OD down and press fit a ring on. Then turn down to the proper fit.
We used the sleeve method as well. Good tight press fit and sometimes a few rosette welds. Seemed to hold up well.
I know that the method chosen to repair the dinged part was to build up with weld, but I wondered if it couldn't be pushed back out? Maybe make a shaped piece to fit opposite the dinge and use a UNF nut and bolt and some packing to push it back out again - get the dinged bit hot too.....
Or just heat it up to sub-tint temp and bang it back out? The more weld that goes on, the more residual stress there will be. Wonder if it might deform the impeller over time, especially in use with vibration and thermal cycling.
@@454Casull I see a lot of folks doing auto-body welding use dry ice to relieve stress. Weld, let it cool, freeze with dry ice, then let it warm up. Works surprisingly well.
Pushing in one part of a cylinder shape pushes out the areas on each side of the push-in. That seal surface will be lumpy eccentric all over the OD and the ID. I would push back the dent to as close to round as possible before attempting any build up... then build up entire OD and recut to proper OD with a high degree of concentricity to the hub/center.
And the bulge would be the largest right next to the dent. Now that the low spot has been filled in, the rest should higher than what they need to be. I think this thing would turn right down to the correct size. First measure the diameter, of course, to check that it is indeed oversize in all directions.
Thanks to all your videos I’m now the proud owner of a small lathe mill combo machine. For personal gunsmithing and all sorts of other things. I’ve learned so much from you. If you read this, I’m very interested in your tool rest. What type it is.
Always great to watch Adam! And you’re such a good teacher, I think you should do that on the side, teach engineering in a tech college
Spend most of the time making the holder to make turning the part possible and then finding out the part wasn't made right in the first place. Maybe it being dropped and damaged was actually a good thing in the long run. Being off center like that might well have caused serious problems for the machine it came from down the line.
Welding only the damaged part of the sealing surface warped the part so much that there's no way to tell if it was machined correctly in the first place.
I got that same dual flow meter from Jody. Love it.
Adam,
When filming welding please put a lens on the camera so we can actually see the welding. Just filming it regularly makes it unwatchable since it is like looking directly into a flashlight which isn't fun.
Beautiful machining as always, such a surprising complication at the end! Hopefully you can get it fixed easily.
Can't wait till the next one! I'm really curious as to how you fixed this.
I came across your videos a few days ago, what got my attention was that you were spray welding an impeller to build up material so the impeller could be turned and repaired. I have been machining for 28 years and I have never seen spray welding like that.
The company I work for makes the biggest pumps & compressors in the world. The department I work in is called Small Lot Rapid Response my title is Senior Tooling Specialist. I work with Impellars, Inducer's and what ever else needs to be made or repaired. For this video when you found that the welded area wasn't concentric with the bore, I am in know way mocking you just remarking on steps I have taken when turning a Impellar that has been welded for repair. I have had similar issues and I checked the bore to the O.D. if they are concentric then you can indicate the part off of the O.D. in your four jaw chuck. Then when you turn the welded nose everything will come together and be concentric. Just a tip from another Machinist keep up the good work.
My motto is...
Anything the Government can confiscate I can build another!
P.S.
I also have my own personal shop on my property in the Black Hills of South Dakota next spring my wife and I are bailing out of Colorado to be up there full time.
You work for Pentaire
This is a great project to make everything concentric
Steps 1-50: Carefully and precisely build up the defect area, build a tool to mount the part, etc.
Step 51 - find out the part was a POS from the get go.
Amazing skill, knowledge and craftmanship. Thank you for sharing your professional passion and accomplishments.
Something else to consider but when it was dropped it had a shaft attached to it that could explain this extreme Run out just a thought
That is a really good camera.
The thread-cutting at 25:15 is a joy to behold: so precise it looks like bad CGI. Just realized some of that's the camera - thing *is* slick.
Love the slo-mo, and glad you didnt overuse it. Being a fab guy, I'd love to have your skills on the machines
As usual... Your work is excellent.
Try connecting the flow meters in series to see how far off the Everlast was, I'm curious if it was close or just a mess. You could even see how the dual meters compare to each other that way
That new flow meter will be very useful for back purging when you weld stainless steel tubing as well.
IDK. To me it looks like the whole piece is bent. Playing it in frame by frame, all the sections that you said are true actually wobble a little. It's very noticable in the discharge ports, because it's wider.
Being bent would make it look like the intake was not true, but that's because it the furthest away from the bore.
Maybe, i think, it's the bore that isn't machined straight. That's something that could easily happen, more easily than machining a huge seal off center.
Love your video's. Im wondering why you would not try rolling out the dent on the lathe rather than filling it and turning down. I have no experience with stainless but I know its tough and hence perhaps it's more than the lathe slide could handle to try and roll the dent outward.
Did they drop it out of a plane?
I have had this type of problem myself. You think you have a great way of doing something and then you have to completely rethink the job. You get it done nice but you have a lot more time in it than you thought.
I think the best way is to take that weld off, machine that seal OD as little as possible until it’s running concentric to the bore. Machine a ring to press over it, with plenty material on the OD to machine off and make the bore size 0.03-0.05mm under the size OD of the part in the machine. Heat up the new ring till it’s just starting to change from straw colour and that should slip right on there, cool and it’ll tighten hard on it. (Edit - just seen you mentioned this at the end, definitely the best way. I repaired many this way when I worked at a shipyards
i work for a plant that makes impellers and pumps and fixing one that has a fit messed up or spots of porosity is the worst.
Your repair and end result was good, Maybe consider in the future clamping down to a table and use a bar and hammer to beat the low spot back out, you can actually expand that portion of the wear ring oversize then machine it back down to just cleanup on the diameter, 0.001 /0.002 under wouldn't hurt at all on that diameter.
I would be curious as to the application for this impeller because removing that amount of OD along with the additional width of the discharge is going to reduce the flow a great deal if it even pumps at all, I would have triple checked that request, if it was going into service at the diameter you received it before it was damaged why cut it down.
Hello Adam,
Entertaining as always... thank you...
Take care.
Paul,,
Could you also have used localized heating in conjuction with a rotating mandrel (on lathe) to gently "push" out affected area?
The problem solving is big time interesting.
The "seal surface" isn't. No sealing component makes contact with the damaged diameter. It runs at a small clearance to the inlet port in the pump body. If you turn ID and OD somewhere close to original sizes, it should run fine. Might be very slight change in efficiency but shouldn't matter for the duty that sort of impeller is likely to perform.
Love the channel BTW
Even so, my OCD wouldn't allow me to live with it being that way. LOL
I know what you mean about OCD but the OD should be fine when turned back down, assuming that it's bigger than original all the way round now it's welded, and that the root (where the step is cut into the cast face) is still true.
The ID could be bored a little larger if necessary, without causing problems.
Should clean up to satisfy OCD visually but if it's taken a heavy knock (and it looks like it has) it may be out of balance.
How fast does the pump run?
A wobbly impeller, at 3500rpm, would be "noticeable".
It's a nice exercise and makes an interesting vid but I doubt a real-world repair would be cost effective (unless you were up sh*t creek on a weekend with no spare available).
🤞Good luck Adam. 🙏🏻🙏🏻👍👍👏🏻👏🏻👋👋
I was hoping for the farm fab mill mechanical shop tour........ but this should be a good one as well like always
Nice work Adam. Great video. Great machining. Thank you for sharing.
The surface is actually not a sealing surface, but a wear surface: When operating, the pumped media will flow from the impellers OD back to the mouth, passing this area, where the clearance between impeller and pump housing is smallest. When the surface is eroded, two things happen: The efficiency goes down , which is usually not a big concern, and the pump will not make the same pressure it used to when new. What you are proposing is exactly how this is repaired: Adding a so called wear ring, and doubling the lifetime of the impeller. If you add the wear ring now, your customer won't have this option in the future. Another commenter suggested that the application is petrochemical, in this case, if API 610 applies, the minimum diametrical clearance is 0,010 plus 0,01 for every half inch diameter over 2 inch (e.g. 3,75 in diameter = 0,014 clearance). As this will be a repaired impeller anyhow, I wouldn't worry about 3 or 4 thou runout. As other commenters have mentioned, it may be a good idea if you or customer could balance the impeller once itrs done.
Trouble is that SS is dense and initially (at least) malleable. A sharp shock makes it plastic well beyond the point of impact, and its overall shape will have changed subtly. A sleeve will fix the local problem, but no part of the rest of it will be to spec. It will need rebalancing. Good luck. PS. I came because I thought it risky to weld SS close to cast orifices.
Abom79 buenas tardes amigo aquí viendo todos tus videos eres un buen tornero mi hermano tiene un taller de torno y soldadura. Saludos desde cd obregon Sonora México ✌️🇲🇽
Dropped .. from where .. the top of Empire State ? I know it's thin'ish wall, but not that thin. Dropped whilst on the end of a shaft maybe. That could explain why it's so bent out of shape, and why I would have thrown it in the bin right at the start.
You just assumed that the shaft should be the reference. If it was dropped whilst on a shaft then the centre boss could be mis-aligned. (By bending the impeller blades - one did look as if it was cracked and repaired) It would have been interesting to see what the relation between the impeller and seal faces were. A re-bore of the mounting boss might have been a possibility, though I'm not sure about the keyway.
if I had access to your workshop I would be as happy as a child who is given the keys to a candy store :)
(Google traduction)
...I wonder if the heat from welding warped the impeller(?)
Turn socket faces on the lock nut to your Dads mandrel. Get it tight with a socket drive -old and improved ✌
How many people still instinctively turn their head when someone stikes an arc even when it is just a video?
Nope...
This was a great episode thanks
Well, I too thought about taking a hammer and beating the ring back into shape before welding. But this business is full of Mr. Know-it-alls and I know results are what's important, not so much the method. This type of closed impeller is used when there are very little suspended particles in the fluid, not slurries. The sealing ring is not a critical tolerance, the impeller is supported by the shaft so some runout is expected. The clearance between the impeller and the case wear ring (if present) is 0.010 to 0.015 generally speaking. The weld up and turn repair will work just fine.
My first thought was "That's 304 stainless. A simple drop did that?" Yeah, there's a good enough repair, a good repair, and then there's sending the part back with tolerances Adam wants his name associated with. Yeah, it might work if done as you suggest, but it still wouldn't be 'right'.
It looked like the entire impeller is not in balance or round.
Dang, so typical. Good luck, if anyone can it’s you!
Was it dropped monted to an axle and thats why its out of true?
Was it dropped with a shaft attached to it could explain the misalignment?👍🇬🇧👍
Looks like that to me, maybe with the 40kg motor helping as well
If so, the impeller would be misaligned as well.
@@ravenbarsrepairs5594 And it sort of looked to me like it is.
Odds are that the pump spins at ~3600 rpm...
I can see machining this as a teaching project, but I would scrap it as a usable part - too much damage to be a worthwhile remanufacturing job.
very interesting
I have repaired 100s of these and every one involved a sleeve. Couple thou interference some retaining compound and we usually staked them in place with some small set screws on then face to prevent rotation (overkill)
Hi, I don't know nothing about your job but looking your work is very interesting... just a question, at 27:00 we hear the lathe is running with clutch engaged, how is it possible that the thread start every time at the same position ?
Most manual lathes has a so called thread dial that helps the operator engage the half nut when the lead screw is in the correct position to come back to the same thread you cut before.
As Skunk says, there's a thread dial permanently meshed with the lead screw. Since disengaging the clutch does not decouple the leadscrew from the spindle, the thread dial's relationship with the chuck is maintained.
So many experts on here! How many of you have a channel/blog/webpage/ or for that matter your own shop where you demonstrate your extensive skills? Crickets....that's what I thought.
take it easy there white knight...
Lot of shoulda, woulda, coulda here definitely. And the occasional made it worse.
Are you are machinist yourself?
Adam specialized in turning large diameter shafts and hydraulic shafts at Motion. He also worked at and ran his father's job shop, and job shop work is currently what he does. As such he undertakes a variety of jobs across a wide spectrum, always applying best practice, a high level of skill and experience to the particular job at hand. However, other engineers and machinists work in their own specialist fields as well, and to throw their comments in the 'armchair experts but know nothing' pile does a disservice to engineers and machinists who devote decades of their lives to a particular branch of engineering. Having a TH-cam channel is not and nor should be the holy grail or pinnacle of an engineer's career.
Like they say: "The best helmsmen stand on shore." Let me assure you, us experts in the comment section have been a resource of knowledge for Adam and other youtube machinists for countless of times. We have provided invaluable advice free of cost while sacrificing our own spare time. I have yet to see a constructive comment from you however.
There seemed to be a bit of a wobble too when it was rotating, maybe it is bend a bit and that makes the seal not look round. Just check, i can be wrong.