Entry Level Prosumer Machines
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ก.พ. 2020
- Shop the Rancilio Silvia ▸▸ bit.ly/2vLHhBN
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Allie joins us from the SCG studio to talk a little bit about what makes a great option for a home user looking to move into “prosumer” espresso machine territory.
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Great video! Thank you for not cutting out the wait times on the Rancilio Silivia. Lots of videos cut out the wait times so you never get a real world picture of using the machine.
Great Review! I was about to buy the Silvia but I ended up buying the Appartamento! Never regretted! So convenient to brew and steam at the same time!
I was going to pick up a Silva but now i don't think i want it
@@Obshowersyndicate eeeeeeeeeenl
I have my Oscar 2 for 8 months now, it’s a beast!
How's doing it now ?
I purchased a Rocket Appartamento about a month ago locally and wow what a machine. Using g same coffee beans and far nicer although a bit of practice to steam nice foam. I have my dream machine now. Thanks for the video.
I’ve had my rockett for about 6 months it’s awesome and the coffee is so consistent
Most badass and the e61 tank of a group head
@woosha10 is this your first expresso machine? I am looking and trying to learn what are the important features for making a nice brew plus some life simplifying features would be nice like a time on the warm up before I am in the kitchen to start.....20 minutes is absurd. Of the Rocket: considering Apartamento and tye two mozzafiatos or should I cough up the extra couple hundred for the R58 plus have to purchase the PID and store it?
Any suggestions?
Celia Ulmer hi Celia if you have access to go to a store I suggest you do that. I did this and could have spent more on a machine above the apartmento , but I was recommended this machine for home use . 10 -15 minutes for the machine to warm which is negligible. It’s my second machine I had a breville and we wanted to take our coffee ☕️ to the next level which it has .
Great video, raw and real. Thank you!
I wish the gaggia classic pro was in this line up!!! but this was awesome!
Would be interesting to see the difference when making drinks for a group of 5 or 6
Well then its about the Oscar 2 or appartamento
Great video! Is SCG planning to carry the Rancilio Silvia Pro Dual Boiler PID machine? If so, any word on a release date from Rancilio?
We will have it. As soon as its available!
Own a silvia, used at least 3 times a day for 17 years. I think the need for temp surfing is overrated. It is showing no signs of not lasting forever.This the sort of product the world needs.
.
Ditto. I still use my V1 every day. Only maintenance is casual descaling and backflushing. Replaced the gaskets of course and the screen twice in 20 years. I have never temp surfed and I steam after pulling shots.
@@Uncompletedrecall Interesting. I have only recently had to replace my boiler gasket. Parts were readily available and reasonably priced. Although it would, I guess be a little costlier if I had to pay a technician. I have never descaled and my boiler was free of scale, I guess it depends on the lime content of your water. I run hot water through the machine after making coffee this reduces the need to back flush.
Something I've never understood: steam activation that requires several turns. Especially something like the Silvia-and many others. As far as I can tell all that is needed is fully on and off. The Oscar 2 seems perfect, quickly all the way on and then quickly off. Why have a knob you have to turn several times to turn all the way on? I'm sure they could design a knob that allow fully on with a 1/4 turn.
I've been looking at getting either of the three. First the Silvia as it's the lowest price and gets a lot of good reviews online, however like you mentioned and from what I've read online, it's hard to get consistent shots without installing a PID. If I was going to buy this machine and a PID, I'd rather spend a bit extra and get the Oscar II, but a lot of people say online you really should install the OPV and Sirai pressurestat. Are these two modifications to the Oscar necessary? I'm left considering the Appartamento which I've not read a bad word about, just it costs a lot lot more.
J R check out the Elba 3. It’s a heat exchanger that is more on line with the appartemento, but quite a bit less
FWIW totally unsolicited advice, but I had a Silvia for a while. Good little machine, but eventually I overheated the boiler and replaced with a HX machine. I would say, of you're serious enough to consider a HX just save yourself the money and go directly to the HX machine, especially if you're ever going to be making more than one milk based drink at a time. I personally got an ECM, but all of the HX machines seem like pricing usually equates to value whether due to features or reliability. I doubt the modifications you're talking about would make a perceptible difference in the cup.
What grinder can you suggest for the Rocket?
Planning on getting an ECD Classika PID with flow control when my tax return comes in. I wish Seattle Coffee Gear carried ECD. The Appartamento with its HX is pretty tempting too. I guess it comes down to HX vs. PID and which is more useful. Price the same. Flow control seems super cool but certainly not a needed feature. My biggest grip about the Appartamento would be no brew pressure gauge. There's a boiler pressure gauge but I feel like a brew pressure gauge could be/is extremely useful when dialing in grind size for a particular coffee....especial for newer less experienced home baristas like myself.
HX VS. PID is a good video suggestion.
Your knowledgeable comments are why I settled on the Izzo Alex PID (not the Duetto). Have a look at Gail's review. Being right-handed I had the shop mechanic exchange the steam and hot water wands side-to-side. I find steaming the milk far more user-friendly with the steam wand on the right side of the unit. Fantastic machine, yes - expensive, with commercial components. I pull 4 shots/day/365 and every one has been consistently flavourful, temp-regulated, perfect crema, quiet pump and useful dual gauges. It is used in small cafés where up to 100-150 shots/day are pulled. (For some reason SCG's ad lists its weight at 100 lbs; mine is 65.) Get to a shop that has a working demo and pull some shots; spend an hour or more with it and ask all the questions. IMHO the next class takes us up to the MUCH more expensive Slayer and Speedster hand-built machines. The Izzo Alex (made in Italy) will not disappoint and will give years of service. At the same shop I also tried the Oscar II and it pales in comparison to the Alex. I wouldn't even bother with the Rancilio. (By the way the grinder used in this video is superb; for a number of reasons it is worth every penny.) The "Black Cat" coffee she mentions is consistently delicious as well; I miss it a lot. Your President's tariff add-on last year saw it no longer imported into Canada (: Happy shopping!
I have classika pid, its great for espresso.
Look at Izzo Alexa PID?
The rancilio Silvia used to be the way to go but they just keep increasing and increasing the price for no reason. Now you can get 2 gaggia classic pro's for the price of one Silvia 😧
Gaggia is a great machine. I feel that if that was the type of machine I was looking at buying...I'd go with the Gaggia and use the money saved and put it towards a nicer grinder if the buyer didn't already have a nice grinder or they were looking to upgrade.
I agree, odd that the gaggia classic pro isn't in this review.
I want to say that they used to carry it. Maybe not but I think I remember they had it a while back. Whole Latte Love carries it though.
@@adamhennings3856 SCG doesn't carry Gaggia.
All the way GAGGIA. I love this machine. I upgraded one with a different sceen for a more uniform water distribution, brass shower head for more heat stability and that steam wand. All in total it was 240 bucks (Showroom model, that never has been used before, plus there were a few parts missing like portafilter and something else) . It was good deal. Love it.. but I have to say I was on the hunt for 1.5 years.
I wonder was there is not much of feedback attention of the nuova simonelli oscar 2, if can someone give user feedback for more than a year owning one. It will be appreciated. I am considering on since the price vs preformance is fair.
what about the gaggia classic pro?
Does Oscar 2 fit with a small cafe shop? Thanks for the video
Rancilio Silvia hands down! Dont waste your money on anything else.
How come you guys have never reviewed the Gaggia Classic? Seems like a really solid machine that a lot of people would love to see compared to these guys.
They don't sell Gaggia.
Had to get out the house, did the Rancilio manage to get up to steam temperature by the time the video was over? :)))))
haha
You explained part of the reason I upgraded and im now operating a ECM Syncronica w Flow Control plumbed in.....sooo....thats how all this snowballs. First its "$700 for espresso maker? O ok i guess i can justify it" to "hun we are going to have to make a change...unfortunately we require a $3200 coffee experience, there is nothing i can do to change it, thats just wher we're at"
@@beerbeforebreakfast that's why I'm trying to make an informed purchase, lol. Thanks for the story. What did you first have and then upgrade to?
How is the Silvia considered a Prosumer model? I use to own a Silvia.
Hey- dunk the steam wand in the milk a few times to help with wiping off the crusted on milk- makes it easier
"like Rancilio and Silvia" has to be one of the most awesome moments on this channel
Yeah. That was epic. Haha
10:48 this "barista" pour milk into coffee three times here and spill out two of the three...
Oscar 2 🙌🙌🙌
Would you do a comparison between Oscar 2 and ascaso Steel duo PID please?
Which has the bigger steam power between oscar ii and appartamento?
a bit more on oscar ii
What about the Breville dual boiler?
can you review (and carry) gaggia models like the classic etc?
also the rocket is stunning and gets my vote
which one have the most low power and efficiency?
The proof of the espresso is in the drinking, so everything else aside which one makes the nicest cup?
Appartamento. Consistency is incredible!
00:42 thaaaat's not what I understand temperature surfing on a Silvia to be. I thought it was surfing between the top and bottom of the normal (not steaming) heat cycle for brewing in order to get a more consistent brew temp. At least that's how I thought Gail explained it years ago.
I wonder if it has two meanings. The one you are referring to when you try to manipulate the heater in order to get as close as possible to the correct brew temp...and the other which I've also seen called temp surfing being when you bounce between steam and brew temp on a single boiler machine. Either steaming first then cooling the water down to brew or brewing first then allowing the water to heat for steam. I think it's more common meaning is the first that you are talking about.
you are right. Shes wrong. :-P
@@whatthehellge3218 Yes and no. I've heard what she's talking about referred to temp surfing a number of times as well.
Porque no los dos?
Silvia has a dead band controller. The temperature drops to a crappy level (never pull a shot down there unless you want a sour espresso) and the boiler kicks on and heats to the desired level (not really) and then shuts off. When the light shuts off the boiler temp is STILL rising. Some people bust out the timer and wait until the exact time that the temperature returns to the proper level.
I don't waste time. There are too many rules that people fabricate and it wrecks the experience. Instead of flicking the brew switch on and off to get the boiler to come on, I just hit the switch and let it run until the boiler element and light is on and shut the switch off.
When the light goes out, turn the switch back on and dump all the boily, steamy, hissing water and as soon as it stops, lock in your portafilter and pull the shot.
Doing a milk based drink? Steam the milk first and run a cooling flush until the water is not steamy and lock in the portafilter and run the shot. It takes longer to get the boiler to steam temp than what it takes it to get down to brew temp from a flush. I even shut the steam switch off when the milk is 75% done to accelerate the process.
People that like to do the milk after:
1. The crema on the shot dissipates faster than the foamed milk degrades. Do the shot last
2. The extreme top of the heating element is exposed and if you let the machine sit in a very hot state without a cooling flush, you'll destroy the heating element. Milk first then cooling flush down to brew temperature and brew the shot last.
10 years with Miss Silvia and replaced one boiler gasket. The heating element just looked like a darker copper penny with no signs of corrosion or calcium caking. I have a Auber PID mod so I never have to temperature surf and mine has the steam setting so Silvia has more pressure and heat than standard. With the PID I can change the temps. Bright coffee I run two degrees hotter to eliminate the brightness and dark coffee with no brightness, I run one degrees cooler to get the opposite effect.
Pro tip. Fix your water. Think about how much time you worry about temperatures , roast levels, dosing, tamping and timing. The drink is 90% water and you are using a Brita or worse distilled water or even worse RO water. Get a BWT penguin pitcher with the magnesium catridge. It changes everything. Your local water supply varies from temperature day to day. Brita removes flavors but doesn't do anything to address TDS (Total Dissolved Solids). Water softeners use sodium to displace calcium. BWT displaces calcium with magnesium. Coffee, espresso tea and other hot drinks taste better with magnesium.
Get a TDS meter from Amazon and a water test kit. You should also be able to find out the TDS from your city's website, but not much other details. If you are on well water, the same kit works fine. All coffee chains run "engineered" water.
Once you are on BWT water those day to day inconsistencies disappear. We've all had days where the espresso was crappy, you cleaned the machine and it was still crappy but two days later it was inexplicably OK.
Pro tip #2 Use a leveler and a scale to eliminate any other inconsistencies. The leveler beats up on a tamper very handily. I actually have a combo unit where I level and flip upside down and tamp if I want. The rim of the basket catches the leveler or the tamper on the leveler and makes it perfectly level. Bottomless shots are always bang on.
Speaking of which, time for an 18g ristretto...
At least for me, the Ascaso Uno or Duo PID are in the same ballpark as the machines in this video. Because of the thermoblocks/coils instead of traditional boilers, the startup time is way faster, which is a hugh bonus in terms of usability for me. Do you have any experiences with those machines? I would love a review about them from you! In my opinion, they are one of the most interesting machines in the prosumer categorie right now.
interesting! I'm researching the Ascaso now.
Does a machine with a PID - like the Silvia Pro - beat all of these machines?
Great video, do you have any review on Lelit Grace?
Where'd the Ascaso Dream W/PID? 😰
As soon as you guys bring down the prices more people will buy them.
Lucky for me I bought an ecm synchonika with pre-infusion flow control for way way cheaper than what you sell them for.
They don't sell ECM Synchronika. But I agree with you that for the price of Synchronika they are selling rubbish.
@@yevgeniydundukov8179 they used too. All of the brands are way over priced anyway.
Im using the Oscar 2 machine for over a year, like it very much. But, in my experience,it does not control the amount of water. Instead, the brewing time is controlled by the machine. The water volume depends on your grinder😊
As long as i know oscar shots based on time instead of volumetric :)
How have your shots been coming out ? Just purchased an Oscar 2
The Rocket is almost 800 dollars more so I'm not sure I see the direct comparison.
Thanks, good info
I’m glad there’s a team that’s offering alternatives to the machines on Whole Latte Love’s channel, but the production quality isn’t close. Time is valuable so an efficient use of time is going to keep people returning to the channel (and buying your products!) Can’t believe we watched someone wait for steam 😂
I disagree with cutting the wait time. Having the full wait time in the video gives a much better idea of the reality of using that machine.
For new machines, the Silvia cannot hope to match the others. The advantage comes from its ubiquity. The reason why it's still around today is because it sold great numbers around the world and last quite a while. Which means, there's a huge community built around it and most importantly, it has plenty of older machines on sale in the used market. For "entry level prosumer", that might be the most important point. If you can get a working Silvia at 1/3 or even 1/4 a competing price for the price, then suddenly the Silvia isn't even competing in this category, it's competing with consumer machines instead. The Oscar and Appartamento don't sell nearly as much, thus also overlap with used more expensive machine. For their prices, I find more expensive machines can offer as much values, particularly the Oscar. The Appartamento size advantage allows it to compete with more expensive used machine.
Why doesn't the rocket go up to 9 bar pressure
That gauge is for steam
Rocket for the easy win.
yes it does hot water to …through the steam wand actually. Do your research guys.
It's disgusting that she doesn't purge the steam wand
Gail uses the Rocket in her RV. Enough said.
For sure! BTW the difference in going upscale to a Rocket using a rotary pump is amazing beginning with the difference in taste; convinced me to spring for the R58 instead of the Appartemento. :-)
@@love2fly59 the rocket mozzofiatto Timer evolucione R has the rotary pump also because it gives the option for plumbing. It also has the PID built in. Does your R58 have the PID built in?
@@celiau3398
Hi Celia,
Yes, the R58 V2 has PID. But it is thankfully one of the last Rocket's with PID that still has the classic looks of pre-PID machines. Although I love technology, I really prefer the advantages of PID without having a display visible on my machine. How about you?
I also use a programmable, smartphone controlled wifi electrical outlet so the convenience factor is pretty well taken care of too. ;-)
Take care, Martin
@@love2fly59 I bought a Profitec Pro 700 with flow control. Unfortunately, SCG does not offer this machine. It has a dual boiler, rotary pump (but you can use the tank instead), and PID. MY PID is visible on the front and displays the temp of both boilers and can be programmed easily on the front. I prefer that convenience to having to remove the drip tray to adjust brew head temp when I change coffees requiring temp change for the best results. I'm an electrical engineer so I don't think the display is ugly at all. Profitec has done a superb job here. It's my first espresso machine and does everything I need it to do. Has not dissappointed me yet.
@@celiau3398
That's a terrific choice Celia! My best friend has one and loves it too.
BTW the son of the founder of ECM is one of the two managing directors at Profitec and ECM. The other one is also a "MD" at both. The two companies are also only about 4 miles apart. Coincidence, I don't think so.
great video but can someone teach americans that its eSpresso and not eXpresso...
I think it's just something ppl say who don't know what tf they are talking about. I'm American and I learned not to say EXpresso long ago.
Not a fair test of the Silvia here. Botched
Classic example of how not to brew espresso on a Silvia. And you dont even taste the coffe and compare the brewing taste. This is not a serious review!!!
what do you differently on the silvia? I only ask because I just ordered one and it should arrive tomorrow.
Many Chinese machine can match the quality of Italian machine at 1/2 of the price.
Sure but I'd rather not send my money to China.
@@dand5829 hahahha
Like????
@@duyman8198 so many of them. they use boiler from Italy but the machine is manufactured in China. I suspect the one on the right is made in china with a boiler from italy also they only put the label
@@redsox7897 what the hell are you talking about? Just wild speculation over here. I just had to open my Silvia up to replace the boiler and pump and rebuild the steam valve because the machine had been sitting in a shed unused for 6 years. The boiler and pump are both from Italy. The boiler is made by Rancilio and they're sourcing the pumps from Ulka which is Italian. Italian goods - by absolutely no measurable means - are any better built or engineered than Chinese stuff, but the Silvia is pretty Italian. Do you now know how giant the production of Rancilio is? Like this comment is just laughable.
This is embarrassment should be pulled off TH-cam.
Very sorry, but the Silvia doesn’t fit this review.
Wow omg, she don't even know the correct way to properly tamp, to correctly use the rubber mat. The porta filter should be placed, tamped on the edge of the rubber matt, duh lol!
Thanks for mansplaining Richard. Where would we be without your guidance? lol jk!
the way how you make the latte it seems that you were not a very good barista
Overflowing and just spilling because I have shaky hands are different;)
They aren't barista, they are sales people :/
Grow up Peter.
This wasnt a latte video. She did a fine job.