Why Did The Greek Choose Marlo Over Proposition Joe? The Wire Explained
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ส.ค. 2024
- In HBO’s The Wire, we follow the drug dealers of Baltimore and the police out to put a dent in the drug trader. The primary drug kingpin in the first few seasons is Avon Barksdale, the boss of the Barksdale organisation. Avon runs west Baltimore, and the east side is dominated by the likes of Proposition Joe. Eventually of course, Avon goes to prison and Stringer is killed, and though the rest of the co-op is functioning fine, the new gangster on the block, the ruthless, cold thug Marlo Stanfield, poses a problem for Joe and the rest of the dealers.
As such, Proposition Joe goes about trying to civilize Marlo by mentoring him, but the devious Joe gets caught up in a web and leads Marlo to Sergi, and then Vondas, and then the illusive Greek, the wholesale supplier of Proposition Joe’s drugs. It is extremely dangerous for Marlo to have direct access to the Greeks, as he now has an opportunity to cut out Joe, the middleman, and work directly with the Greeks, which of course is what eventually happens. In spite of Joe taking Marlo under his wing, Marlo saw the affair as a means to him taking the street crown. As he says, he wasn’t made to play the son.
But is it feasible that the Greeks would have worked with Marlo?
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*Why did Avon help his nemesis Marlo? The Wire Explained:*
th-cam.com/video/ia-8f2cHXHM/w-d-xo.html
I always thought it was because Avon put the pieces together that Joe was one of the primary reasons Stringer betrayed him.
It was west side like Avon said. It was simply street territory stuff.
@@roderickstockdale1678 yea Avon even says that lol. The whole series Avon always talked about how he didn’t like the other side. He simply gave Marlo the chance to work with him since they from the same area. Now if the show would of continued I feel Avon would of took Marlo out due to him being a threat again eventually
@@TheGr8-1 stringer betrayed him because he wanted to just make money and lay down for whoever was willing to work with him.
@@user-im7jn6ob3g without doubt, Mario was TOO hazardous.
Joe wanted it to be one way. But it's the other way.
STOP....stop saying that.
@Rando Yaguchi I was quoting the show.
@@shrim1481 Lol great quote!
This comment is gold 😂😂😂😂
😂😂😂 perfect!!!
They only know me as The Greek, and I’m not even Greek. I love that line.
Like a phantom, how it’s supposed to be
Sounds like a Russian statement
Lol yeah so good
@@emeralddivine I was thinking either Serbian or Ukrainian
@@robertnolden1641 Funny, I assumed Portugal
Joe’s first mistake was telling Marlo he would introduce him to the connect, the scene when the shipment got robbed and marlo wanted to “talk” to cheese in other words get violent and prop joe basically said no because he’s family even though cheese really messed up but if it was somebody else that individual would have been dealt with. Marlo started to realize prop joe weakness. Prop joe I understand he was looking out for his nephew but his nephew was so grimy and shady he backstabbed him
Yeah… Joe was idiotic for that. But family is family… maybe Cheese held a grudge from that raggedy ass Camaro lol
You see the same thing with the Freys from GoT - Walder Frey who runs the family is all about family-family-family. He'll stab anybody else in the back for any reason, but family is #1. He drills that mantra into his heir-and-eldest Stavos (might be wrong name), but Stavos dies in battle and now there's some other Frey heir, one who will likely cast out all the "useless" Frey's from the familial castle once Walder Frey dies.
Never actually considered Cheese might've been holding a grudge about his uncle deciding against him...but surely he'd have to realize it was because of the Greeks and Sergei? Wait nvm it's Cheese that dense m'f'er never realized shit.
@@Tiabliaj1989 Cheese got his though. Man that was a satisfying scene. Right as he's putting the crown on his head.
@@Tiabliaj1989 wtf are you talking about 🤣🤣🤣 none of what you said concerning the freys is true lol
imagine Avon had bay crush the pit crew for fucking up.. 😳 😍 😩
All the scenes with the Greek sitting at the counter listening in on conversations are wonderful.
“They know me only as The Greek…and I’m not even Greek”.
Badass.
That’s because
Most likely he was Israeli and part of the Mossad
Using others from around Europe and Russia to get his job done
After all the points you made in this video, I think it does actually make a lot more sense then I remember it. If the Greeks tipped off Joe, and Joe lost, then they would have been having to deal with the repercussions. The fact Marlo knew who they were, the fact Joe just got his shipment taken, and the fact that Avon vouched for Marlo, and Marlo had proven himself relentless in his pursuit of their business… all of those things showed to the Greek that Joe’s time was more than likely coming to a close. Any attempt to try and change the inevitable would potentially involve them in street conflict that they clearly worked to avoid at all costs. Great video.
The Greeks would of washed marlo and hung him 2 dry its levels to this
Avon vouched for Marlo with Sergei, not the Greeks. And I never understood why the Greek was still in contact with Sergei. He snitched on them to the cops.
@@TTJJCC same, I always wondered this and never understood it. They killed Frank Sobotka because he was going to give information so why does Sergei get a pass? Perhaps Sergei just pointed them out and then ended up just going silent and took his jail time in the end as we see him in jail. Maybe the Greeks never knew about that and figured Sobotka and his nephew gave the info. What the hell do I know? 🙃
@@SteadyRoosevelt Good point
@@SteadyRoosevelt We don't know if Sergei actually knew anything more about the Greek that he held back or not. The Greeks know Sergei got life and there was no heat on them beyond what could be attributed to the Sobotka's so they probably don't know Sergei ratted at all. It's not even clear Sergei reached out to the Greeks he may have just given Marlo the address to the restaurant cuz the first time Marlo went there he just gave the briefcase to the guy behind the counter he didn't have a meet with anyone.
Slim tried to warn Joe that Marlo was shady
RIP Mr.Chew .Prop Joe.He was a excellent actor and acting coach.Taught them young men the acting profession.💯
never had the makings of a varsity athlete.
@@deathrager2404 what?
@@skillz78 all i know is he never had the makings of a varsity athlete.
@@skillz78 it's reference from sopranos
@@deathrager2404 you definitely a virgin
too many people will never understand the genius of proposition joe, he understood the deal, theres always a product to sell. why not make a deal? hes the personification of the essence of The Merchant, when some might just kill or betray him, he instead protects himself with deals and propositions that make solutions like that less appealing.
Thats also his weakness. Marlo is the opposite, he is a soldier thru and thru. And Joe was incapable of realizing that he would never be able to use propositions to bring Marlo fully under his wing. Joe tried to tame a tiger and never realized that it was only a matter of time before the tiger took him out.
The inverse is also true of Marlo; his total soldier mentality was his weakness and why his time at the top was destined to be short.
@@ggsimmonds1 Ultimately Joe's way of working was best - it's said back in season 1 (I think by D'Angelo) that 'the cops be here about the bodies'; the BPD didn't really give a shit about people selling drugs as long as they did it quietly and with minimal killing. Joe was the one who recognised that, that all the dealers had to do was stop shooting each other and the Police would more-or-less leave them alone. And for a long time it worked, but the problem was it left them vulnerable to younger dealers who didn't share the same outlook. Marlo was a character who wasn't happy to take a lot of money for minimal risk, he wanted ALL the money even if it meant taking massive risks. And that just wasn't compatible with how the co-op did business.
What I think the Greek recognised was that Marlo was just the first symptom of the disease; he could kill him or sell him out to Joe, but another would come up behind him, and another, and another. Eventually the co-op would be smashed and the old, violent ways would come back. Therefore, even if he didn't like it, he might as well stay ahead of the curve and work with Marlo. If someone were to take out Joe and the co-op later, without his consent, the Greek would then have to negotiate with that person from a position of weakness rather than the strength that he had now. The Greek recognised that even if he wanted it to be one way, it was another way now and he dealt with it pragmatically. Joe didn't and got killed as a result.
"buy for a dollar...sell it for two..."
As Slim Charles says “Game the same, just got more fierce”. Marlo was inevitable but his downfall came even faster due to his violent nature. You can see in the shows last montage that Slim Charles became the next Joe. Life goes on
💯
They should’ve shown the flashbacks of Cheese meeting up with the Stanfields and then Hungry Man and Joe in their last moments and Slim figuring it right before he shot Cheese, this way we could understand why he STOLE the throne but they left that out of the scene.
@@roderickstockdale1678 The Wire doesn't do flashbacks lol it kind of cheapens this type of show that's why they only did it once back in season 1
@@brandonbates9587 perhaps, I don’t even remember😂
@@brandonbates9587 but even still they should have with that scene.
The Greek knew Marlo would kill Joe even without their blessing. Vondas was not pleased but Greek was just thinking about this reality
So why didnt they kill him then? Doesnt answer the question
My only issue with the Wire is Prop Joe becomes uncharacteristically naive in order for the Marlo plot to progress
Marlo wouldn't have touched Prop Joe as long as the Greeks were only dealing with Joe, Marlo never would've risked the supply getting cut off, Vondas was right, Prop Joe was reliable for years, they should've stuck with Joe.
@@faitaccompli5878 Sure he would have if the Greeks had flat out turned Marlo down he would have killed Joe anyway and just watched what the rest of them would do. He knew the Coop would fall apart without Joe and Marlo had other connects for drugs before the Coop he didn't actually care about his profit margin in the short term he would have gone to war with the other members.
@@woahblackbettybamalamFacts, it's like he became stupid as the show comes to an end. Similar to Tyrion in GOT
@@sliding_by8607 GOT was all around lazy writing at the end. It got so bad that every major characters were written out of character.
Man it's funny how on every video featuring "The Wire" we all turn into English majors and character study experts 🤣🤣🤣🤣
All in the game....
Now go get your shinebox
@@brownpunk1794 👍💯
It’s TH-cam what else should people do
@@brownpunk1794 BRAVO !!!!
I feel The Wire has the most respectful comment section. It speaks to the quality of the show.
The fact that Marlo was even sitting there was the nail in Joes coffin. The Greek realized the only consistency is change and to stay ahead of it was key.
Joe thought he could “civilize” Marlo to keep a mayor gangwar from happening for the control of Baltimore… teach him the ropes and maybe keep him satisfied. But Joe didn’t understand how ruthless and ambitious Marlo was and that was his downfall. The Greeks knew that; as long as someone is there to buy from them and they keep their hands clean then business would continue, and it did without Joe or Marlo, new faces would take over the old ones
No disrespect to prop joe but he was fat & old...marlo was young & healthy not to mention determined and the greek saw more of a future with him.
That's where the problem is right there, can't civilize a sentient pile of fecal matter because it isn't human. As far as the Greeks they shouldn't have been doing business outside of their own race. WP and BP are like oil and water they don't mix, they might as well be two completely different species as they have absolutely nothing in common not to mention BP despise WP and blame them for everything. They will turn on WP at the drop of a hat and justify it because "muh ancestors" and "all Whyte peepo are evil rayciss" and WP see them as inferior, almost animalistic, prone to acts of random violence and predatory. That is why we will never be able to co-exist in the same country. We need to separate into our own nations with our own people and just stay away from each other. That is the only way any of us W or B will ever truly be able to achieve peace and be able to prosper. The sooner everyone wakes up and realizes that different tribes aren't meant to interact or especially breed with one another the sooner we can all start making real progress.
Always, there is more
He wasn't ambitious, Marlo lived far beyond any type of normal principles. Marlo just couldn't be influenced... He was an absolute.
@@mk-ultramags1107 Well yeah but part of that absolutism was the ambition to wear the crown
Prop Joe and Cheeses relationship is another perfect example of why love and family/blood are often overvalued by so many people. Loyalty is much more valuable especially in a world like the one portrayed in the wire
“You can love someone and stab them in the back. But a loyal person could never do the same!”
Ooo, good quote therr! 😁
I would say you don't love someone if you stab them in the back... Prop Joe loved Cheese, Cheese didn't give a fuck about Prop Joe, he was just a pure opportunist. I guess you should never get tied up in loyalty or love when that isn't reciprocal. And agreed, people give their family way too many passes for bad behavior
Cheese gon watch the shop. You watch Cheese
Yeah but its not like Prop Joe could pop a cap in his ass and not hear about it come thanksgiving time
You can rewatch the Wire many, many times, then come on TH-cam and watch all of the clips, and after the countless hours of all that... You can move into the analysis videos and spend countless more hours there. It just never ends. The show has so many layers to it. I don't think anything else will top it.
Sopranos
@@JohnnyJoestar0777Sopranos came kinda close. The Wire is still holding it down by far. Thing with Sopranos was a lot of shit in that show wouldn't fly in a real Mafia family.
Joe wasn't a dog deep down inside he just knew how to feed the dogs. He spent his time trying to find a bone Marlo would enjoy. He knew he was gonna get bitten soon enough which showed when he was barely surprised at his end.
Marlo was a wolf. No matter how trained and peaceful he could be, he was ultimately untrainable and unable to be permanently tamed.
@@TCthaCrisis You should know we have dogs because an old species of wolf was domesticated.
It's an exception that proves the rule or we'd have many more species of wolf become domesticated since way back rhen
Nicely said 💯💪
Joe was grimy as fuck maybe you need to rewatch the series
Marlo is simply an "Absolute" and the Greeks know that. Someone who can't be bought, can't be reasoned with etc... He represents the game in the most literal way possible. His last scene proves all of that. He's on top of the world and it still means shit. Its the cyclical nature of the game(Hence the rim shop, the ring and his last act on the series.)
Well said.
the greek saw the writing on the wall. he might be the most cunningly intelligent criminal character on the show. thats how he lasted so long.
@@djangofett4879 He lasted so long is bc it's flipping fiction genius... they didn't see crap but an actor.
It's hard to feel satisfied when we see that Marlo walks free and keeps his money, too, but in the end, he has lost "the game". Most of all, Marlo wanted to be the king, the legend that gets remembered and revered for years beyond his time, yet his name fizzled out within a few weeks.
Wow! I never thought of the rim shop and the ring like that.
Because Marlo Left the Greeks with an Ultimatum… “Well Do it or Don’t.”
He had some place to be…
The Greeks wanted it to be one way.
But it was the other way.
He had somewhere to be
The Greek said, “He is NOT Joe.”…
They let Marlo take over cuz Joe broke rule 1…
“NOBODY else contacts us, either you or your 2nd…”
He was saying, Marlo isn’t Joe cuz Marlo should’ve never known them no matter what…
On top of that… if you’ll give us up to Marlo how we know you won’t give us up to the feds?
Joe should’ve gave them Cheese and kept the connection out of it.
✌️💜🙏from Chicago 🇺🇸
He told them to sit on it
I think it was a product of the 5th season being the last and cut from 13 to 10 episodes. They shortened a season in which they had so many storylines to finish. The last season could have been made into 2 separate seasons. The writers strike no doubt had something to do with it
They should bring it back.
Yeah I feel like they should have cut out that newspaper arc they could have use that for bigger storylines for the streets and politics
@@antoniobaugh707you aint lying. I damn near skip through all the scenes with the Baltimore sun.
@@antoniobaugh707Nah. Season 5 was about the media. If you take out the Baltimore Sun scene then you don’t have a Season 5. Just wrapping up storylines & finishing the show.
Because prop joe wasn't a part of their organization. He was a customer. The Greeks can do what they do anywhere. Part of the reason Marlo was so swift and ruthless is because he knew he had to have all of his ducks in a row before he even approached the Greeks. Otherwise, they would've just left.
Joe's horrible mistake with the shipment had him reveal his supplier to a lecherous fiend like Marlo was the beginning of his end. But the crown that Marlo wanted so much was simply a paper crown, he approached 2 little peewees and asked if they knew who he was they cussed him out and knifed him and busted a few shells at him narrowly missing their mark. Nobody remembered or revered him like he thought they would hence why he handed out money to school kids.. the game he realized is not a faithful girlfriend
He was no Omar.
The Greek, not Vondas was only concerned about business moving forward. It didn’t matter whom they supplied. With Marlo, his sole mission was to “Wear The Crown” so it didn’t matter whom he stepped over/removed to reach that goal. In their respective finals scenes, The Greek went back to being the unassuming old man listening while Vondas handled the business, while Marlo, even though on the doorstep of true wealth, walks away and takes a corner. Knowing that he could never Wear The Crown again but he go back into the shadows because in truth no one knew him
@@shivahuggins1276 it was never his interest to become legitimate. The only goal he truly strived for was to Wear The Crown. That his name didn’t ring out like Avon’s, Omar’s or even Chris and Snoop, his victory was hollow, except in his own mind
@@janconner2087 Beautifully put. Although he was horribly brilliant he just didn’t have the charisma to be truly remembered
@@oliverhunter9495 Marlo wouldn't be one to organize basketball competitions for example. Community work is the best way to become a respected name in the streets.
Marlo came, gave a few dollars to the kids, not out of generosity, but mostly to size them up and only Michael qualified.
After that Marlo just started decreasing Baltimore's population lol.
What I love most about Season 2 is how you get a real depiction of how unrealistic it is to try an stop the drug war because you have corrupted FBI agents in cahoots with the drug lords themselves.
It’s not a drug war for the suppliers. They simply provide the drugs
I concur, flip 1 to 2 like the business man says @@janconner2087
What corrupt FBI agents ??? What the hell were you watching
Probably a Donald trump rally@@Whatisthisstupidfinghandle
@@Whatisthisstupidfinghandlewhen Frank Sobatka turned snitch and the information got typed into the system, then the scene shows an FBI agent catching the filing and calling up the Greeks. End of the second to last episode of the 2nd season, ‘member berries?
Season 5 was rushed through because the creators of "The Wire" were told it wasn't gonna be a Season 6. So they had to close all "loose ends"
This is pretty much exactly what I've always thought. The Greek doesn't really care who runs the streets and probably thinks Marlo will be easier to bargain with anyway. Marlo has shown them his hand, his plan and his willingness to adjust to their ways of doing business. He's up front and eager to prove himself. The Greek can see the hunger in Marlo and knows there is nothing that's going to stop him from shooting his shot. That's how I always interpreted his little smile at least.
Really loving your Wire coverage. It's a show I've watched thoroughly a half dozen times and have had close to two decades to think on, and you still hit on something that I hadn't even considered. Bravo!
This made me think so hard like dam
I just finished the series for the first time.
Indeed
Love this analysis. I completely agree with you.
Marlo wasn't one to put money first, power was most important to him. This is why Joe had to go, he had a strong control over the co-op and that made him a threat. So with or without the connect, Marlo would have killed Prop Joe. With the Greeks, he stood to make more money because their dope was higher quality, but if they refused to do business with him, he'd have just killed Joe and gone back to selling his low quality stuff.
Marlo's power wasn't from the quality of his dope, it was cos he had a monopoly that he created by being ruthless.
“Him we don't know, but the one he calls boss. Him we know"
You mentioned the writing in season 5. Around that time I was on the train in New York and saw herc’s partner and I started talking to him on why season 5 was taking so long to come out. He told me the delay was due to the writers strike that was going on in Hollywood. So that’s why everything may have seemed rushed because the writers just came back and the dynamics must’ve fell off.
Mad Men was also affected by the writer's strike. Sad
@@johngo3715 everything happens for a reason:
@@johngo3715 a lot of shows did.
Every time a show fell off with one season, I always check when the season got released, “oh yeah writers strike”
@@johngo3715 breaking bad too!
Father Gabriel?
The Wire is good that there's tons of TH-cam creators constantly making videos like this. Amazing show...top 5 of all time...maybe top 3.
CR...doing a breakdown on this truly great series just shows the type of true gangster aficionado you are! Great breakdown...Prop Joe was showing weakness all through the next to last season. The Greeks in the end didn't really care who was in charge, in all reality, what they cared about was making money and keeping out of any public fray. As was said, Baltimore was just a part of their distribution business. Marlo was the new up and coming "young turk" and they saw that and knew what the final outcome would be...it really was just that simple, Marlo was utterly ruthless, a criminal gangster force that was not going to be stopped. One of the last scenes of Marlo was leaving an upper crust business party of the upper echelon of Baltimore business and political life...he leaves and goes back to the block and snatches a corner like a street hood...dude just loved being a true vicious gangster..
i really like your wire videos. please keep making them.
the greeks didn't chose anything.. the streets chose marlo, the greek didn't have much of a choice, prop joe was going to go regardless, eventually.
Exactly. People are talking as if the Greek was some kind of boss who was 'over' Marlo and Joe and was calling the shots. He wasn't. He was a supplier... a powerful one, but still just one of many. He could agree to supply Marlo, or not, in which case Marlo would've just went back to whoever was supplying him before he joined the co-op. But then the Greek would lose money, because what good is a product with no buyer? He needed Marlo just as much (if not more) as Marlo needed him.
Don't get me wrong, the docks did give the Greek an advantage over other suppliers. But before the co-op, he was exclusively Joe's connect. Avon and Marlo were easily as powerful as Joe, and got that way through their own connections. Clearly the Greek wasn't the only game in town. A city like Baltimore would have dozens of suppliers, and sits right on Interstate-95, so it comes in from the north and south, as well as the docks. Folks are over-estimating the Greek's role.
Proposition Joe’s death was cheesy.
Slim Charles avenged Joe by turning Cheese into Swiss.
It wasn't cheesy. He was a snake that finally got snaked by Marlo after he snaked Marlo at least twice. Even Avon wanted Joe dead after he snaked him numerous times. He even snaked Omar. It was his time and I was glad when he went. but I guess because he can run his mouth everyone dismisses his treachery
😂😂
🤣🤣💯
Rewatching the whole show, going through the seasons, you did the explanation justice. Keep pumping more awesome videos like these out.
I think while the storyline of how Marlo cut out Joe may seem weird, it actually mirrors real life - especially in business.
In business a bad decision doesn’t always reveal itself immediately. It may even look like the right decision at first. Only as time passes are the impacts of that bad decision felt and then lots of things can really change really quickly.
W
And The Wire is based completely on reality. And yes you are right
Marlo was probably killed by the Greeks later anyway, after the show's events
People never really consider the LONG TERM effects of things, granted you cant just all out predict the future, but the next best thing one can do is calculate all possible pros & cons..
Exactly why war is almost impossible to plan for or prevent. Every new decision relies on the limited information you have and too many rapid decisions without enough context always cause tensions to explode.
Joe getting killed made sense. He had overplayed his card with how he used Omar to his advantage just like Stringer overplayed his scheeming. But the Greek going into business with Marlo even before he had killed Prop Joe made NO sense at all. They knew how rare it was to have a dependable customer like Prop Joe. He was unique and that took away a lot of heat for the organisation. They would have either killed Marlo outright or gave Prop Joe a hint to what was happening. Never ever would they have ditched a perfect business liason for years to some upcoming gansta risking a huge market. They would have been doing their homework on Marlo and seen what a loose cannon he was. Still Marlo worked as a plot device to drive forward the plot. Lets not forget last season was by far the weakest season and Simon made quite some huge mistakes in character development and narrative drive. For me The Wire is S1-4 everything and S5 just some small parts like them chasing Marlo through investigative work. The whole press angle was pasted on and McNulty and the homeless murders was pathetic how they mistreated the McNulty character.
Joe knew a lot about the Greeks. It makes sense that they didn't mind if Joe was killed because he could eventually flip on them or rob them.
Prop joe isnt one of them. They have no reason to get payback. They have a new client whos paying up so theyre not losing money.
Nah Joe let shipment get robbed and that made Vondas have 2 mert Marlo. He looked weak. He had to have them talk to Marlo cause Marlo was so fierce which the Greek would have analyzed by situation alone. Joe was done.
The last season was about jumping the shark. The paper plot wasn't pasted on. It only had the one season to develop. It was as strong as the school stuff.
The actor who played Marlo really had the eyes for it. In every interaction, his eyes give away his position. I notice he stares and studies anyone he wants to read and simultaneously puts off that message through his gaze that he is to be taken seriously. Interesting is that there are times when he doesnt maintain eye contact after a cursory glance. You can tell these are people he has read quickly and dismisses as weak. The security guard he has killed and Bodie initially though he does make eye contact later when he sees what Bodie does with the corner.
Well Said
I’ve seen this show 3x & it’s ima have to rewatch it again because I always miss something… too detailed, too realistic… Legendary writing
I couldn't understand why why Prop Joe just didn't have Marlo eliminated. He could've hire brother Mouzone to do the job because Marlo is a maverick who will only bring heat on the entire game. Despite being Machiavellan he didn't believe in playing by the rules which wouldn't sit well with OG's who do.
Easier said than done. Marlo was well protected on his turf, and always traveled with muscle. Killing him would not be an easy thing. Even Omar couldn't do it, remember?
@@stephencooper3583 pro joe likes to feel clever...he likes to feel like he is always in control.
@@stephencooper3583 Indeed but, now I realize that taking out Marlo would only leave a vacuum and unless Prop Joe had the muscle to absorb the rest of Marlo's crew and territory.
@@stephencooper3583 Omar would have done it if he didn't get murked by a child
Snoop and Chris is why
So glad ya getting into the wire now pal.
Season 5 was written crappy because it was the final season,everything was rushed,the characters deaths to the fake killer.
Love that you're really getting into The Wire CR, I see a lot of great videos coming our way, so many storylines to explore! I recently caught up on all your interview videos, and in the one with Sopranos Theories you mention The Wire and that it's worth a watch, but you won't put it up there with The Sopranos just yet. That was my opinion as well on my first viewing, but on my second viewing I put the on equal footing, and by the third viewing The Wire had surpassed The Sopranos for me. Wonder if you'll have a similar experience.
Yes I'm still processing but from where I stand, much as it pains me to say, The Wire probably edges out The Sopranos
@@CineRanter I agree. More nuanced. If that was even possible.
@@CineRanter absolutely not
Black show >>>>>>> SopraNO
I always felt Joe doing so much for Marlo and showing the connect and all that felt really out of place for Joe as a character
I always wondered why when Marlo came to them especially with their smooth operation with Joe that they wouldnt just dime him out to Prop Joe and have him removed. From a business standpoint dealing with Marlo was a terrible idea for them
Simple explanation: It was a massive oversight/plot hole that season and little more than that, there's not a snowballs chance in hell the Greek's would-not only do business with Marlo but-sanction the murder of Prop Joe for Marlo-who they quite literally don't know, but know of his reputation as a cold hearted gang banger (versus Prop Joe's business first/act like an actual human being personality) who's actively going behind Prop Joe's back to the main connect (i.e. obviously this shithead can't be trusted), and after the first time he came in with the unlaundered-literally straight from the fucking street corner-vial money that would've been it... *bye bye*
As you said from a business standpoint, this decision had absolutely zero logical sense applied to it, in reality they'd of told Joe; then a dozen hard hitting Ukrainians wielding Mac 10's and Ingrams would've pulled up on them and exterminated his whole crew.
Joe showed his muscle was weak when the shipment got robbed. If Marlo beat Joe in the streets after the Greeks tipped Joe off, then they would be next to feel Marlo’s wrath.
@@serendipitousslim1529 What wrath? The Greeks were international they were so many levels above some street hustler like Marlo. Marlo would have been mince meat.
@@serendipitousslim1529 dude wth
@@toddpick8007 they were on his home turf without muscle around all the time and the only other person they knew of his organization was the ruthless Chris, not someone to mess with. They also would have to worry about some 14 year old walking into the diner with a pistol and spraying up the place.
Bless these deep dives. The Wire is an endless well.
Excellent analysis. Marlo might be a ruthless thug but he had a similar soft spoken and calm and calculating manner to the Greek. He was the opposite of Cheese.
I agree with you. Marlo would have returned. He was younger than Joe who was a bit overweight and who knows how his health was. If Joe had died of natural causes they wouldn't have wanted to deal with Cheese.
Bro no one in the Baltimore drug game dies of natural causes.
The Greek understood this. He recognized that the person he would be supplying to would be constantly changing and in order to ensure his own security, he has to go with it.
Really Enjoyed "The Wire" & All the Intricacies of That World as Presented... Excellent Show, Well Done & Will Live On...
The Greek just doesn't care. Who is irrelevant. Joe yesterday. Marlo today. Cheese tomorrow. Dealers grow like weeds.
Exactly.. everything was a cost of doing business. Nothing more, nothing less
Think its time for Prop Joe to seriously considering salads
The Greek could read the writing on the wall. He knew Marlo would kill Joe. He made that clear to them without saying it out loud.
Still doesnt make sense. They dont know how he runs business. All they know is he has a high body count, which creates enemies and brings attention of law enforcement. By meeting Marlo direct, they put their operation at risk and he could conceivably rat them out if he was ever arrested and he has shown he has no loyalty.
Kinda like in Breaking Bad when Fring initially refused to work with White bc he saw that Pinkman was a royal f’ up. Then fast forward, not only does Fring completely go against what he initially said, he makes Jesse a trusted companion and risks his entire operation for him. Makes no sense.
"We're going to miss Joe" - The Greek
Yup
@@StuUngar The Greeks set up their business so they didn't have to care how Marlo ran his business. The Greek knew if he didn't deal with Marlo it would cost him money one way or another. When Marlo got caught it was at the Greeks warehouse but the only people who went to jail were a couple of Russian flunkies. The only info Marlo had to rat them out was the same as the last crew there's a guy named Vondas and a guy who calls himself the Greek.
@@StuUngar Joes fault they had to meet. Your answering your own question. Joe was done. Marlo was not a supplier but a powerful gangsta. Avon too. You kill them or war with them unless your Police it will be ugly for any mob,yakuza anyone. Greeks made logical safe move.
The other side of Joe's analysis is that he knew that if he refused to make the introduction, Marlo would be on everyone. I think Joe just knew that Marlo had the street strength.
They knew Marlo was going to take Joe out after the second time Marlo showed up at restaurant, the didn’t choose Marlo. Joe messed up by introducing him, but all it would of took was for Marlo to get a good whole seller, an Joe would of still been a target. The game caught up with Joe he made a lot of mistakes with Marlo, an it caused him
All those co-op members weren’t strong enough to just kill off Marlo together with resources
RIP Robert F Chew.
So much thought in these video's brilliant🙌🏽
Dude, more wire videos, please!
Excellent analysis!!
A lot of overthinking and a lot of naive comments in the commentary. The Greeks were wholesalers. It doesn’t matter to them if Walmart or Amazon is the top retailer, as long as they’re the ones supplying them. That’s for starters. They don’t really care who’s buying as long as someone is buying. As the season showed, once Marlo was arrested, the Greeks were still out there supplying the next group. Their business doesn’t stop.
This builds on top of the next issue which is discussed in the video. Marlo was not going to stop. If they denied him, he’d still take out Joe, then just go back to selling the stuff he was moving from his old supplier. Right? It’s how he made money this whole time. He doesn’t need the Greeks. In the meantime, the entire co-op would then be selling the product from Marlo’s old supplier, and he may have quiet possibly took out the Greeks just to be spiteful (as he was shown to be).
What I’m getting at it the Greeks needed Marlo to play along or their goal of having buyers would end during his reign. Marlo did not need the Greeks.
EXACTLY. This whole "Why didn't the Greek kill Marlo" question is dumb. He didn't have the muscle even if he wanted to. He was just a supplier - one of many.
this is a question I never considered why would the Greeks work with Marlo it was strictly business they may have liked Joe but they never cared who wore the crown in Baltimore if it was Avon, Marlo , Joe ,or slim as long as they had somebody they could reasonably trust who was capable of moving their product and made sure they got their money that was the only thing that mattered to them
The Greeks saw the writting on the wall, Prop Joe wasn't in the same league as the Stansfield organisation when it came to ruthlessness and violence, the Greeks knew Marlo was taking over with or without their backing. For them it's only about money loyalty doesn't come into it, Marlo's money was as green as Joe's.
The Greek saw himself in Marlo, and understood what Marlo was trying to and eventually going to do
Because it probably mirrored his own rise to kingpin status
Simply put...He respected Marlo
Wire is my favorite series ever by far but...
It's a poor excuse that the Greek worked with Marlo just bc he wouldn't take no for an answer...if that's the case that means the Greeks are pretty much saying ",we will risk our freedom and do business with anyone as long as they keep coming and asking us.. against our wishes to add" ..who ever has the plug will b very rich..so people will constantly be coming after the spot...by saying yes to Marlo they are saying we will do business with whoever keeps coming...unrealistic
Joe asking "where you off to again" wasn't him being weak thinking they were friends...It was tongue and cheek with him trying to keep a line on the re-up
I think the Greek took into consideration that Marlo was able to force the introduction in the first place. Edit: you mentioned this the moment after I posted lol
I think the biggest problem the Greeks had is they knew no-one in their organization was behind the robbery of the shipment, and when Joe brought Marlo to them for reassurance, they read Joe as weak/possibly compromised.
I wanna know why Avon didn't trying to get to the Greeks instead of help marlo get it, the connection was worth more than a 100 thousand
Cuz he was locked up with all his soldiers just trying to survive i'm sure he would have connected with the greeks when he got out and built his army back up he also knew somebody as trigger happy was marlo wouldn't last much longer on the street if he waited for it to play out marlo might have also took prop joe his long time enemy out with him which he did and left it all for Avon for the taking once he got out
@@taffy9966 I think Avon was back channeling The Greeks.
Avon basically ordered the hit on Prop Joe in exchange for the connect. Slim Charles held the connect at the end, who is his guy...
So Avon got connect from Greeks and didn't have to put up any money
Joe got comfortable and Marlo made the Greeks see that the fact he showed up at the diner in made them realize that he was serious about being the man
The fact that Prop Joe didn't see all the signs that Marlo was planning something shows how out of touch Joe was, he introduced Marlo to the connect showed him how to launder his money & let's not forget payback for the robbery Joe set up for Omar at the poker game
I don’t think Marlo ever figured out that Joe hit Omar off to that game, he would have had to hear that from Omar himself.
@K Kwill tol?
The reason the Greeks don't kill Marlo or tip off Joe is summed up by this Vondas quote: "The street doesn't concern us". They don't want to get involved in distribution because this means micro managing a larger crew, including several dealers, enforcers, lawyer, etc. I think they want to keep their crew small and limit the risk. They're already succesful with their current structure/size/market positioning and don't feel they need to expand. Even though they clearly prefer Prop Joe and could tip the scales in his favor if they wanted, they choose to stick to their established strategy and keep their options opened as to who will become their main distribution contact.
I think this question has a couple factors that can be cited in an effort to provide an answer, several of which this video touches on...
But with that said, Joe showing weakness, all the talk of the politics playing out on the street, etc... and despite Vondas speaking toward knowing/trusting a man and loyalty and how that is the most important thing (certainly the preference - as compared to the alternative - of his organization that was focused on one thing and one thing only)...
I think this question is summed up more simply by recognizing The Greeks didn't need to, and simply didn't choose shit - basing that on something else Vondas said (paraphrasing):
We are not interested in "the streets"/"the streets" don't mean shit to this international operation we are running and that only sees a small percentage of our total earnings being generated by your dying town.
Joe, Marlo... as long as they have someone to wholesale to and continue to make/increase the amount of money that they were making, they don't care who that person is - whether a loyal man they've known for years (who they also HAVE to know was a scheming game player who's tendedancy toward keeping the preferred low profile was in constant jeopardy given Joe was still willing to play the ultimately insignificant but consequential "game" that does NOTHING but distract from the only thing that matters: making money), or the new hot headed, murder you for talking back youngin (who, despite being less "smart" over all, might make more sense in the short term because apart from his flaw of needing to wear a metaphorical crown, could not stand any of the bull shit complexities that were any action or plan beyond "slang dope/make money").
If The Greeks, at the level they operated, and assuming were informed of EVERY SINGLE TINY RELEVANT DETAIL related to, and that might effect the ONLY thing that mattered to them, gave enough of a shit to do more than just stay informed as to what was going on at the street level in Baltimore, and actually decided to weigh in with a "choice"... they choose Slim Charles and/or the concept of the Co-Op he helped maintain, because that was the horse destined to win the race, and the option that offered them the best route to maintaining what was (essentially) their air tight anonymity and being able to focus on THE single thing that mattered - again - making money.
Vondas's face/Vondas being known, The Greek himself coming back to and showing his face in Baltimore, the nebulous and wispy "risks" being taken so their wholesale operation could "make the best decision regarding blah blah blah..."
"My name is not my name." "And I am not even Greek." There sits a man at a desk at the heart of an FBI field office with access to that agency's entire intelligence base. Passports for days and for any nationality needed. Personnel most likely entirely dedicated to creating contingencies for an already established contingency "department". And each major player at the highest levels most likely having entire identities, lives, fortunes, and all the essential details in place and entirely secret/removed from the operation itself "just in case" - with secrecy guaranteed because the only person left alive who knows about it being the one who had it created (the creators themselves long dissolved in an acid barrel not even the last living piece of the puzzle knowing what coordinates where it resides)...
The Greeks Did. Not. Care. Enough to choose between any of the petty thugs they perceived to be beneath their concern beyond are we making money so we can by a nice coat, a new car, or some other tangible pleasure that gave them a reason to get out of bed in the morning.
That's my take/rant.
That was a good rant man.
@@coolpeople4287 Why thank you sir.
@K Kwill I think we're on the same page here - bottom line: Joe and Marlo were not their business, except that they simply needed SOMEONE in that role to sell to - as to backing one/the other... there was a Baltimore long line of people ready to step into that position, and The Greeks only concern would always be accounted for.
And that's the short version👍💯
Why would the supply bother was my take as well. But it makes me wonder why Sergei intervened in Season 2 for Nick.
I’ll tell ya, when I first started watching your videos, as decisive as you are inserting quotes from the shows you cover, I’d have been proud to call you my son
I’m sure that they didn’t have the usual chief in charge of the writing for season 5, hense the quality of script. I still enjoyed it, but we definitely missed out on a better final season
When The Greek comments that Marlo "will keep coming back" he means climbers - someone gunning (literally) for the #1 spot. They know Joe's days are numbered no matter what, merely for being in business with the Greek in the first place. Thucydides Trap also implies that it's good for The Greek to let their biggest partners be taken out from time to time.
Well said completely understandable
What happened to Proposition Joe? Just ran out of time.
Thanks for the video. I never understood this decision. I like the idea that The Greek understood Marlo had ambition for self aggrandisement at street level but would not have the ambition of a character like Joe or Stringer to rise further up. Marlo could keep order in the streets and be cheaper than Joe.
I guess they realized that Marlo was young and hungry and coming on, and that Joe was old and slowing down his power was waiting he wasn’t seeing things that he should’ve seen. Even if they helped Joe kill Marlo when would the next milo come along. If they really fell Joe was slipping there’s gonna be another young hungry Turk ready to kill really do anything to take the crown. The other points you made me hold some weight they may have thought they had more power over Marlow. But ultimately the bottom line is Joe was on the down slide and Marlo seems like the best next option. I will say though that I do think the rating was much sloppier and weaker in season five some of that shit just didn’t make sense for those characters to do.They had the Greek doing things that he absolutely would not have done and see you in two.
I think The Greek understood Marlo would come back, but only so many times in peace. He was going to rise to king by any means. Someone that ambitious might find their own supplier, then life would change Prop Joe and all of his allies.
Marlo was a big fish in a small pond. Good at being a thug, but in the big picture..that's it.
He was simply a Baltimore guy..and while he was ruthless, his expertise stopped at the Baltimore city limits. The outside world was foreign to him, and major heavyweight suppliers like the Greek can find a guy like him anywhere. Takes a lot of skills to run an international cartel, and Marlo simply didn't have the mindset. We saw that at the very end..he only knows how to strong arm.
My least favorite scene in The Wire was when the Greek met face-to-face with Marlo.
This might have been the 2nd or 3rd time that Marlo had met with the Greeks.
In Season 2, the show already established that The Greek doesn’t meet directly with anyone unless he deems it of the utmost importance. Frank Sobotka had insisted on meeting him numerous times and was refused, despite likely being involved with them for months, if not years.
And all of a sudden, after only a handful of meetings with this unknown young drug lord, the Greek decides to show his face to him. It honestly just struck me as a sign of the declining writing quality in Season 5. However, it goes to show just how incredibly good of a show The Wire was that that scene was the low point of the show for me.
I always felt he wanted to feel out this new guy he was going into business with. An old school way of doing business for an old guy.
That’s not actually true that the Greeks don’t get involved with the streets. A few members have gotten into street stuff before as favor to someone else. Ziggy getting money for cheese burning his car and being out of his debt was one of em
Entirely wrong question to ask. The greeks didn't care about the street or their name ringing out. The real question is why didn't the Greeks tell Prop Joe that the youngun was trying to double-cross him. Joe could've taken Marlo out himself.
Great wire analysis. Great vid bro
Also just wanted to say R.I.P. Ray Liotta, sorry to see him go.
Have to correct one thing near the end of this. Slim Charles did not get the connect, Avon did. “The King stays the King.” May have been Slim sitting there, but I have no doubt he was representing someone else. Someone who does feel like he has what it takes to be a CEO. I think Slim Charles replaced Stringer and Fat Face Rick took over from Prop Joe.
I think they went with Marlo because they saw Marlo would be gone and done sooner or later and it’s about time they cut their losses and move on. Or they see. He would go down soon and the quicker they can move on to a better option
There is no plot hole or weakness in the writing. The wire be the wire.
Prop Joe was one of my favorite characters in the show. I was not happy about his exit
Joe lost all his leverage with dealing with Marlo by schooling him on everything. Then, the writers just made him easy to move on from, having already established that he favored deal-making over violence.
As another commenter stated, the Greek probably just viewed Marlo as being resourceful ASL, and were willing to overlook his roughness around the edges. Pretty easy to deduce who was going to win out between Joe and Marlo.
Still sucked for to see such a thoughtful hustler taken off the chessboard.
The Greek saw the inevitable. Instead of fighting the natural order of things and creating a bigger issue down the road he chose Marlo because he understood that a guy like him and his ambitions had no limitations.
I saw no benefit for the Greeks picking Marlo over Joe. Marlo was the first dude they dealt with that got jammed by police. Marlo was too hot for them to be dealing with
Growing up in Baltimore around this bs everyday taught me 1 thing, people like Marlo have short reigns’. The Greeks wouldn’t have touched Marlo. The streets speak loud and everyone in the game knows Marlo kill happy ways make it hot for everyone. Joe didn’t make waves and killing him would make Marlo and cheese dead men. The tv has to tell a story and the wire did a great job even though it’s a cross between reality and fiction. Peace!
Joe knew too about the Greeks for them to fully be able to trust him. Especially after Marlo complained about the robbery.
Bodies bring heat.
Heat means hard to run business.
Prop Joe knew this.
I never got the impression the Greeks thought Marlo would actually kill Prop Joe. Once he did though, it became a simple business decision. "Always business."
The Greeks are probably thinking he’ll die soon enough anyways so they may as well set up with the next man up
But they didn't because Marlo sold the connect to the next man up for 10 million. Marlo set up the next man aka Fat face Rick and Slim
Never watched the Wire but you make it tempting too...
Great show you should consider
The reason why is the Greek himself simply did not care. One buyer is as good as another buyer. And his thought process actually plays out in a couple earlier episodes. When Vondas Is mad about losing the $15 million supply, and the Greek just brushes it off. The Greek simply wants the product moved, who moves it isn’t relevant. Vondas had loyalty to Joe, the Greek has loyalty to his empire
This is a nonsense answer because one buyer is NOT as good as another. Joe was reliable and dependable and quietly did business with the Greeks for many years without incident until Omar stole the shipment. Even then that was GOOD for the Greeks bc it led to them immediately selling ANOTHER shipment to Joe.
Marlo had the connection long enough to get to one resupply which was then immediately busted by the BPD and led to the seizure of the product and arrest of him and his crew. He was then forced into retirement.
Notice a difference between them two buyers?
This was lazy screenwriting, pure and simple.
The Greeks paid close attention to detail. When Marlo kept trying to bring them cash in the briefcase, and they refused. Marlo just kept coming back so I'm sure they admired his persistence. Also, when the Greek gave Marlo the burner phone, and Marlo told him that he doesn't even talk on phones. I think thats when the Greeks knew that Marlo would be less likely to bring their organization down than Prop Joe.
My favorite season was #2 which everytime I tell people they say Oh man that was the worst. If you guys like The Wire watch a series called the corner which is also based in Baltimore with a lot of the same actors only 6 episodes but awesome 👌
The Greeks worked with Marlo because there's no loyalty amongst the supplier and the buyer, they didn't give a shit about Joe or Marlo just the money itself. Prop Joe's character in The Wire was just getting old and comfortable in his position in the Co-op
I always thought the Greeks saw an opportunity to increase the price of their product. Marlo then says "Price of the brick going up" so he doesn't get a worse deal than Joe had.
lol what? the greeks didn't increase the prices, marlo did, he pocketed the money, he controlled the plug he got to set the price to whatever he wanted to.
@@mikehunt9884 Well the way I see it is like this...we know Joe is a born negotiator, the greeks been selling to him at one price forever...Marlo gives them a chance to increase that price because they know he's desperate to own the connect. As much as they like Joe they know they can't really increase the prices with him as they've probably been doing business with him for years...it makes sense to get a new buyer who buys at a higher price...So Marlo increasing the price of the brick when he retails it to the Co-Op also makes sense if he's buying it at a higer price no?
@@adamkhan7469 nonsense
@@mikehunt9884 I love your work on the Beaver Falls Police Department