My wife and I are New Mexican of Spanish decent. Her surnames of Padilla and Martinez and my surname of Ortega. We have traced our family lines to the late 1400’s and early 1500’s. I love the history of our state and of Northern NM especially as that’s where we are from. Thanks for your effort to explore some of these historical events.
I wonder if we’re related? I’m descended from 8 lines of Oñate soldiers & Cortez. We came over from Spain in 1598. We have our family history back to the 1400’s.
Me too all the assassinations of humans and destruction of the history all ready living here must be fascinating to deplorable people like me ! Att: Lucifer
Thanks Ken, that is what I love, experiencing history on the ground. You can never fully understand the past sitting at a desk, it's just too far removed from real life.
I've probably watched about tens of thousands of videos on TH-cam by now, but this has to be one of my favorites. It's just so pure and compact. There's no fat on it. Also the video is about connecting the past with today, which I really like. Thanks for the video!
Thank you so much for that. In response to the popularity of this video I have made another about Coronado and it is coming out in a couple weeks, make sure to check it out after June 22.
Im spanish and from new mexico. loved this video. please do more stuff like this. you did a great job on this type of work. Such as trails and information about the area. Loved how you cited journal entries.
@@rubengonzalez5155 you don’t even know the history. The spanish is no different than any other ethnic group of the time. Tell me what are your ancestors? English ? Norway ? Moorish? Aztec South American?
Awesome. I live in north central Texas. The Edward's Plateu runs thru the area. The archeologist say the Spanish were never in this area. I am 64, and can remember Spanish artifacts found here over the yrs, sent to the University of Texas to be studied and authenticated. Which they were. There are at least 3 of those pieces on display at our local museum.
The presence of Spanish artifacts does not mean the Spanish were there because the Natives valued those objects and carried them around and traded them.
We learn most of our American history based on the account of colonies on the East coast in the 1600’s. It’s interesting that 100 years before that, colonies were already started in the Caribbean and in what is now the Southern US, there were explorers walking around. Incredible if you stop and think about it a minute.
Great stuff, please keep doing this kind of material. It's such an interesting look at our state in the 1500's. I love the different paths the Spanish took through our area! Could you talk about the fort the Spanish had near tombstone on the San Pedro? Me and my cousin went there and what a story !
My high school history teacher found Mibres artifacts, that included bracelet carved from Pacific scallop shells, in southern New Mexico. This demonstrates the extensiveness of trade in pre-Columbian times.
Nice diversion. Interesting topic. Farther east, archaeological evidence puts Coronado at Blanco Canyon, in Texas. He eventually broke off with about 40 men and proceeded north, eventually following the Arkansas River to its "great bend" in central Kansas and met up with what are today recognized as Wichita or affiliated bands. Chain mail has been found in archaeology sites at this location, though whether it came from Coronado's expedition is hard to determine. "Exotic" pottery from the southwest also made its way to this area ("Glaze E" I believe. Also seen it referred to a Chupadero Black on White, which I think is a NM variety), and that's been used to date the sites to 1500 give or take. The "Quivira," as Coronado dubbed the people of the area, made a very plain, utilitarian pottery. I've been attempting to replicate some of the forms. What clay they were using, where they were getting it, isn't precisely known, which, I've discovered, is somewhat par for the course after so much time.
Fascinating, thanks for the info on Coronado on the plains. I have been to the museum in Floydada, Texas and seen the Coronado artifacts from Blanco Canyon.
I have read the differing opinions on the path Coronado took. I find the path you laid out to be very reasonable, well thought out and the most direct following old trade routes along the fringes of the Rocky Mountains. I hope to ride my motorcycle along your route when I can make time. I would like to visit the Texas site where they found the tips on the Southwest end of Palo Duro Canyon.
I’m from Albuquerque, I’ve hunted Elk and Deer in some of the places you visited. I had some knowledge of this expedition. Every time I’m out looking for prints/ track on the ground in these places I’ve always told myself wouldn’t it be something to actually find something, anything!
i live on the old trails. in Marfa. rode bike on several ol trail routes as such. but this need cross country mt bike. lived in Mesa, Az and rode the mogion rim and Black hills , SD of other great trails...
This almost 2 year old video was just sitting around getting a couple of views a day when suddenly a few days ago TH-cam started pushing it out to people. It is now getting about 500 views a day, some inexplicable twist of the TH-cam algorithm. Thanks, glad you liked it.
I believe that in order to find out the exact rought how many people who was on the journey. Winter satelight picture of the snow melts highlight the trails for very oldtrails
Makes sense to a degree , , especially when the main trading route follows Hwy 80 deviating exactly as it was written , especially since you are closest to the Mtn Chain at that point ( 6:22 ) there they deviated right , maybe thats why the Hwy Dept made the road from there on ( 80 ) to the Cotton City Transfer station . Your headed farther north ....To San Simon and farther away from the Mtn Chain . Looking on Google Earth , there are no trails , no roads , from a geological point of view to go that route , when the Mtn Gap mentioned in the writing is probably at ( Granite Gap ) adventure Park . .
Sounds like you have spent some time researching the. We might know more tonight as Deni Seymour is giving a lecture about her most recent discovery www.oldpueblo.org
I am unfamiliar with the Cibola Project, I will need to look into that. I have wanted to get the Flint's translations but it is a bit pricey. amzn.to/2NlYwix
I happen to have been born in Casas Grandes Chihuahua, the place where Caveza de Vaca came through in around 1532. Paquime Indian city was in decline then
@@AncientPottery Paquime was abandoned by the original founders in 1450. Some Chihuahua historians believe that the Aztecs who founded Tenochtitlan came from here
Okay, you're roped me in and appealed to my inner detective. You mentioned in another video about the pre-Internet days, when we had to research everything and study photographs for the smallest clues. That's how I grew up, too, and I think there are some new ways to study those old clues.
@@AncientPottery I was looking at New Mexico LIDAR data for the Lordsburg Playa, but the data is insufficient. If they ever get detailed data uploaded, you might be able to discern the slight depression where the Spanish horses passed across the playa long ago. I was also hoping that Google Earth would show a deposit of red clay along Mangas Creek, which could indicate proximity to where the ruin was, but alas, the coloration of the satellite imagery wasn't clear enough.
I lived in Morenci, Az for a number of years and one of stories i heard was a hunter got lost in the mountains north of town on what's locally called the Coronado trail and sought shelter in a cave during a snowstorm. Supposably in that cave was a number of Conquistador artifacts , helmets, spears, and whatnot. Then, after the guy got back to safety, he could not relocate the cave . Also on the 191 highway as you get into the residential area a story i heard was there was a home owner having a basement put in under her house when the construction crew ran into a couple fully armoured Spaniard bodies that were buried there. This is an area where a lot of indian artifacts are commonly found as the Gila River in the day used to reach up that far inland. The lady then canceled the project in order not to disturb the grave site. Stories like these tell me the Spaniards were all over the area long before the Mormon settlers showed up
Excellent journey, well done! I know you mentioned the original journey took place in June, early 1500's. Back then they went off the Julian Calendar, wasn't until Oct 1582 the calendar advanced 10 days to correct the calendar due to too many leap years. This 10 day difference may have a slight temperature variance from today using the same date. Just something to consider, probably during this original journey the calendar was probably off little over 9 days not quite the 10 day advancement of Oct 1582. An excellent story, enjoyed it very much.
I keep wondering what the weather was like back in the 16th century. They had to have walked on game trails or trade routes. Hiking out here in the plains can be difficult. I seldom look up . Im always looking at where i put my foot down due to the cactus.
Totally enjoyed this. Just found your videos. I live in central NM and I am digging into the early Spanish history. I have some theorys about the Coronado Expedition about the alterior reasons and plans he implemented on that trip.
Great video! Visited Coronado national monument in Az last year and fell in love with the area. Off topic a bit… who is the flamenco/ Spanish finger style guitarist that was used throughout your video?
I agree, unfortunately 500 years of people messing with things has made it hard to find these markers. There is an interesting story in the Coronado chronicles about the ships that were bringing supplies to the expedition getting all the way up to the Colorado River delta and leaving a note under a big tree. Then later members of Coronado's party found that note and I always wonder how in all that wilderness did they manage to find the same tree. There had to have been some sort of markers or something left to help them find it.
I'm very interested in the subject matter of the Spanish incursions into southwest and California. Where I live there is still the De Anza trail heading into what is now Los Angeles. I'm very interested in more content of Cabeza de Vaca. He lived an interesting life of an explorer.
This is a great video and an interesting take on the route Coronado took to Zuni and Acoma…one question comes to my mind…did he continue north from here staying west of the Mogollons and travel to the San Francisco River/Tularosa River…essentially following HWY 180 route (+/-)? This route would have been very rugged in my mind, but I guess they all would have been.
In my opinion, yes. That is actually the easiest route through the mountains. Other proposed routes further west are much more rugged, have you driven US 191 or US 60 north from the Gila?
@@AncientPottery Yes...HWY 191 most recently...and agree, it is much more of a difficult climb towards Alpine than Hwy 180. Always made me wonder if it was the Coronado Trail they would have been exhausted had they followed that route. Hwy 60 was a long time ago but what I recall it is a steep run up the rim as well. So if Coranado did go North along the Mogollons did he cross Salaiz Pass and go NE towards Reserve or did he head west towards Springerville/St John's? I guess either are possible but I don't know the ancient trade routes...anyway thanks for getting me to think about it a little.
Did you look for the ruin in that canyon area, it seems to have alluded many people, Emile Haury looked for it...no dice as did Doug Preston, have you read Doug's book..Cities of Gold? If so how close does it match up to your hypothesis..it's been so long since I read it. I have some thoughts in regard to glaze ware pottery I would be interested in talking with you, I was friends with Mike Hawley and spent a lot of time with him alone firing pottery. Your videos are very interesting.
No, that Mangus Creek area is all private land, I will need to get permission from land owners before I can look there. Haury was looking in the wrong area and Preston just followed Haury and Bolton’s ideas, way too far west. I could do a whole video on why those guys were way off base, maybe I will some time. I have considered making a video about Hawley, I have a couple of friends who knew him. I would love to talk with you about glaze ware and Hawley. Use the contact form on my website ancientpottery.how to connect with me.
Te falta nombra a su capitán Gonzalo de Cardenas descubridor del Gran Cañón y por respeto a su gobernador Coronado . Le pone su Apellido al cañón llamándolo " Gran Cañón de Coronado " ,con el tiempo se Camila por Gran Cañón del Colorado ,por sus aguas de color ferroso o por su tradición dialéctica. Gonzalo de Cardenas es paisano mío nació en Llerena provincia de Badajoz y de la comunidad de Extremadura , ( España. )
I have been looking at this similar but more of the superstition mtns. Pre 60's mapping has a lot of the original names you can follow the names and it leads you threw the mtns
i always maintained that coronado stayed more to the east going north then to the Zuni coming from the east rather than the south.. I am dead certain they never went through morenci then luna and st john etc. Extremely rough country. PPL in Eager and Luna dont like that. if a rancher finds a piece of iron looking like a half of a horse shoe, BINGO ! cause they used split horse shoes. instead of one piece, it was two halves that was put together to form the horse shoe.. good stuff Andy.
Check out the great book by Richard Shelton, ‘Going Back To Bisbee’. He was a professor at the University of Arizona, and he dearly loved the Arizona and Mexico, and he loved history. He sadly passed away in November 2022. His book is interesting and entertaining…that guy had a great sense of humor! My goal next year is to follow the route he takes in his book from Tucson to Bisbee. I grew up down in that area, but I never knew a lot of the stuff he talks about. I will be seeing it with new eyes.
I have read all the accounts in my Castenada book, and also lived in SE Arizona, and I still think he followed the San Pedro. For one, we know that Coronado was in Corazon in Mexico, and the San Pedro is almost due north from there. Two, there were other trade routes from Salado lands, one of which went from the Gila near Pima, and over to Aravaipa, and from there to the San Pedro. Three, there's many creeks in deep canyons, two of which are Bonita and Eagle Creeks, and they are in the area he would have gone through.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply Robert. Nobody has ever conclusively proved where Corazón was located, archaeologists have looked but never has it been found. The trade route you speak of did not end at the San Pedro but continued in a SW trajectory into the Tucson basin and from there south does the Santa Cruz. As odd as it may seem because it seems logical, the San Pedro was never part of any major north-south trade routes. I think it was cultural, you could travel the eastern route (San Simon and Rio Yaqui) through Opata lands or the western route (Santa Cruz and Rio San Miguel) through O'odham lands. The middle route down the San Pedro and Rio Sonora was partly O'odam and partly Opata who were not always on friendly terms and therefore this route was seldom used.
Werent the Opata were part of an existing western trade route between Mexico and the sw? So it would make sense coranado would take the Western route up to zuni, especially as the abandonment of Eastern AZ would make travel along those routes harder and with less opportunities for resupplying from local populations.
The trade routes went up through the Opata, Cabeza de Vaca came down through the Opata. The Spanish were following Indian trade routes and the locals were used to traveling light and fast.
And any area's of interest should be able to expect to medal detect any location that is a good camping area to look for on the trail repairs. I have a few ideas. But you are doing good. But I would focus on the Spanish named towns
So that little museum down there in the national monument seems to have it all wrong. They got him going north right there...just a bit east in the valley.
Brilliant presentation about a truly remarkable expedition. I’ve seen some of this, but it’s difficult to deconstruct. Bear in mind, at least a portion of DeVaca’s accounts were fabrication
One of my favorite books, I have read it several times. Preston was fun to travel with but he didn't do much original research into Coronado's route, he mostly just read and followed Bolton's interpretation.
In an area covering a couple of acres about 8 miles SW of Deming can be found many many shards of pottery and arrowheads from the Mimbres culture. I believe these predate the Spaniards though.
I also think that it would have been comforting to the spirit to know they were on a trail. Trails would have led to watering holes or something i feel.
I'm surprised at the amount of contact Coronado had with the locals to be "hearing" about this and that. I thought he came up the Rio Grande. That area of would have been more desolate than the Rio Grande Valley.
The Rio Grande didn't become the north/south corridor of choice until the 1600s. Even back in prehistoric times, most trade between the Southwest and Mexico came up the west side of the Sierra Madre and through southeastern Arizona.
@@AncientPottery interesting. I took History of NM. I think this fact was barely mentioned, so it never registered. They barely did mention trade came up pacific side. Now that I think about it, I recall having amazement or even doubt when pacific trade was mentioned. For some reason, I discounted it, probably because I have lived in the North Rio Grande Valley. The class was 40+ years ago.
Andy's, estás enfocado en los logros de las exploraciones europeas en América, te sugiero que busques más información en los naturales, ellos son los que encontraron las reservas de agua,los españoles solamente contrataron guias.
No es así, ¿has mirado mi otro contenido? Este video es sobre Coronado, por lo que obviamente tiene un enfoque europeo, pero. Coronado definitivamente estaba siguiendo senderos nativos y siguiendo guías nativos. Desafortunadamente, los nativos no escribieron nada para nosotros, así que mucho de lo que sabemos sobre esa época tiene que estar basado en relatos europeos, sin importar cuán mal escritos estén.
If you look at the history of Coronado and his future contemporaries, and pay attention to what they were actually doing, you then get an idea of where they most-likely traveled to and thru. He was bringing Aztec gold from Mexico, up into the U.S. as direct-north as he could, then turning West, headed for what became California...to the missions there, which helped facilitate the gold being shipped back to Spain on the 'Western route' (down the baja, parallel to South America, and then East, into the Atlantic). So, they were 'wagon-training' gold to a shipping point, even during the original expeditions. Now...what other 'mysterious gold story' comes up when you come North into Arizona? Jacob Waltz 'The Lost Dutchman Mine'. Many rumors in the day claimed 'the gold was over 99% pure'...a level to high, not to have already been worked. Did Waltz in fact, find a cave or THE cave, in which the Spaniards stored the Aztec gold as some 'waypoint' to their West Coast shipping departure point? There are reports of Spanish 'helmets', spears, swords found in the Superstition Mountains...were they 'drops'? Why would they be there, as well as found in several caves up in the Superstitions? If you overlay a map of the 'Search of the Superstitions', with all known expedition maps through that general area, you find while some 'loop north, then west' of the possible 'Waltz Mine' site...some go through some of the very same valleys...and interestingly enough, it is some of the LATTER EXPEDITIONS that do so, not the first ones...almost like they were becoming afraid of being hijacked, so used waypoints to 'store' gold under-guard, then reduce the size of each 'Arizona-to-the-Coast' shipment from such a 'guarded facility'. Again, did Waltz stumble on the remains, some 200-years later?
Cabeza deVaca's shipwreck was near what is Tampa, Florida, today. 300 men survived. Only 4 made it 8 years later to Mexico City, 1 of them an African Muslim slave named Estevanico
Thank you for that Bob. The survivors however did not walk from Tampa Bay to Mexico City, they sailed all the way to Galveston Island near Houston, then walked from there to Mexico.
@@AncientPottery Yep,what you said. I still wonder if Cabeza actually saw what is now Alibates park,but for sure he walked further nekked than I can in full hiking gear. Salute!
Had to be brave, back then, never know if the indians would welcome you or attack. Im sure they had alot more game to hunt but the weapons were not accurate. Loved the video.
I use to live near the Gila River which flow in SE NW path That was the Southern border of the the US and Mexico prior to the Gadsden Purchase. Tucson was in Mexico .
They found Spanish swords and red flint in Stanton County, Kansas. The Red Flint is Native to Arizona or New Mexico, I can't remember as well as I used too. I mention the red flint because both Spanish parties had Indians with them to help with the work loads. Slaves.
Southwest Arizona (Yuma) doesn't get the same level of monsoon moisture that southeast Arizona does. In SE AZ June is actually the hottest month, the rains in July and August actually cool the temperature a bit in most years.
My wife and I are New Mexican of Spanish decent. Her surnames of Padilla and Martinez and my surname of Ortega. We have traced our family lines to the late 1400’s and early 1500’s. I love the history of our state and of Northern NM especially as that’s where we are from. Thanks for your effort to explore some of these historical events.
Thank you, I love Spanish history. I am working on another Coronado video right now to hopefully be released next month.
I wonder if we’re related? I’m descended from 8 lines of Oñate soldiers & Cortez. We came over from Spain in 1598. We have our family history back to the 1400’s.
What a shame
Keep looking into your families history. I'm Irish and ended up tracing our family surname back to around the year 300a.d. in Ireland.
If I had a dollar for every new mexican that says they are decended from conquistadors I’ll be richer than the king of Spain
I love the Spanish history in the USA doesn’t get much recognition but is super fascinating 🇪🇸
Here in Arizona there is a lot of Spanish history.
Chinglee, you are correct, enjoy it myself too. It's a lengthy history
Me too all the assassinations of humans and destruction of the history all ready living here must be fascinating to deplorable people like me !
Att: Lucifer
@@rubengonzalez5155 all history is worthy of remembering, especially the terrible parts.
@@AncientPottery correct! Specially when it’s told with facts and with out bias
This is very unique approach getting out in the field and not sitting behind a desk the way a lot of historians do
Thanks Ken, that is what I love, experiencing history on the ground. You can never fully understand the past sitting at a desk, it's just too far removed from real life.
@@AncientPottery cool 😎
I've probably watched about tens of thousands of videos on TH-cam by now, but this has to be one of my favorites. It's just so pure and compact. There's no fat on it.
Also the video is about connecting the past with today, which I really like. Thanks for the video!
Thank you so much for that. In response to the popularity of this video I have made another about Coronado and it is coming out in a couple weeks, make sure to check it out after June 22.
Im spanish and from new mexico. loved this video. please do more stuff like this. you did a great job on this type of work. Such as trails and information about the area. Loved how you cited journal entries.
Thanks! I'm glad you liked it, I love history and will do more in the future.
@@AncientPottery Please do, you do a great job. I can see your channel really taking off with more projects done like this.
You look Pueblo stop the bs talking about I’m Spanish lmao embrace you heritage PoPay
So much blood on the hands of Spanish decency !
@@rubengonzalez5155 you don’t even know the history. The spanish is no different than any other ethnic group of the time. Tell me what are your ancestors? English ? Norway ? Moorish? Aztec South American?
Awesome. I live in north central Texas. The Edward's Plateu runs thru the area. The archeologist say the Spanish were never in this area. I am 64, and can remember Spanish artifacts found here over the yrs, sent to the University of Texas to be studied and authenticated. Which they were. There are at least 3 of those pieces on display at our local museum.
The presence of Spanish artifacts does not mean the Spanish were there because the Natives valued those objects and carried them around and traded them.
We learn most of our American history based on the account of colonies on the East coast in the 1600’s.
It’s interesting that 100 years before that, colonies were already started in the Caribbean and in what is now the Southern US, there were explorers walking around.
Incredible if you stop and think about it a minute.
Great stuff, please keep doing this kind of material. It's such an interesting look at our state in the 1500's. I love the different paths the Spanish took through our area! Could you talk about the fort the Spanish had near tombstone on the San Pedro? Me and my cousin went there and what a story !
Oh yeah, Presidio Terrenate that's a fascinating place.
My high school history teacher found Mibres artifacts, that included bracelet carved from Pacific scallop shells, in southern New Mexico. This demonstrates the extensiveness of trade in pre-Columbian times.
Those ancient people were more connected than we give them credit for.
Nice diversion. Interesting topic. Farther east, archaeological evidence puts Coronado at Blanco Canyon, in Texas. He eventually broke off with about 40 men and proceeded north, eventually following the Arkansas River to its "great bend" in central Kansas and met up with what are today recognized as Wichita or affiliated bands. Chain mail has been found in archaeology sites at this location, though whether it came from Coronado's expedition is hard to determine. "Exotic" pottery from the southwest also made its way to this area ("Glaze E" I believe. Also seen it referred to a Chupadero Black on White, which I think is a NM variety), and that's been used to date the sites to 1500 give or take.
The "Quivira," as Coronado dubbed the people of the area, made a very plain, utilitarian pottery. I've been attempting to replicate some of the forms. What clay they were using, where they were getting it, isn't precisely known, which, I've discovered, is somewhat par for the course after so much time.
Fascinating, thanks for the info on Coronado on the plains. I have been to the museum in Floydada, Texas and seen the Coronado artifacts from Blanco Canyon.
Thank You for taking us along.
Gladly
Impressive to see how your analysis has evolved, Andy! Some of the best video work I have seen, too! Hope you find the Red House!!
I am still looking, thanks.
I have read the differing opinions on the path Coronado took. I find the path you laid out to be very reasonable, well thought out and the most direct following old trade routes along the fringes of the Rocky Mountains. I hope to ride my motorcycle along your route when I can make time. I would like to visit the Texas site where they found the tips on the Southwest end of Palo Duro Canyon.
Thanks! It would make a great ride and the little museum in Floydada, Texas is worth a visit to see the Coronado artifacts that came from Palo Duro.
Such an incredible video! I've become so interested in researching the Coronado Expedition, so your videos are awesome. Thanks for making this!!
Glad you liked it
I was interested in Coronado's trail. I remember reading about it decades ago.
Thank you, Sir... this was a real treat. I know now to follow the base of the mountains, looking for springs & seeps... Gracias!
You are welcome. I'll see you out on the trail.
School made us listen to this- helped me understand better. 10/10
Thanks. And thanks to your teacher!
@@AncientPottery
Yes- Will doo-
Thanks for the interesting video. I live in Bayard, NM. Often, I find potsherds and stone tools in my backyard. I love this area and its people.
Lots of great history around there. Thanks for watching.
Superbe. Andy, thank you for such an interesting set of films. Very professional and immensely enjoyable.
Thank you, I am glad you enjoyed it.
I’m from Albuquerque, I’ve hunted Elk and Deer in some of the places you visited. I had some knowledge of this expedition. Every time I’m out looking for prints/ track on the ground in these places I’ve always told myself wouldn’t it be something to actually find something, anything!
Awesome, I am the same way, always have my eyes peeled for Spanish artifacts.
I really liked this video. The music and history were great.
Glad you liked it.
Thanks for posting. Inspired a fun upcoming trip.
That's great. This part of the country doesn't get a lot of attention but it is beautiful and full of history.
i live on the old trails. in Marfa. rode bike on several ol trail routes as such. but this need cross country mt bike. lived in Mesa, Az and rode the mogion rim and Black hills , SD of other great trails...
I had a student in my last pottery workshop from Marfa.
History is a must. Uncover more. Thanks
Thank you
I have no idea why this was recommended but it was a very well done and informative video. I enjoyed it very much!
This almost 2 year old video was just sitting around getting a couple of views a day when suddenly a few days ago TH-cam started pushing it out to people. It is now getting about 500 views a day, some inexplicable twist of the TH-cam algorithm. Thanks, glad you liked it.
@@AncientPottery you did great job and I'm now a subscriber! I love history and obscure history is so much fun. Thank you for your work!
I believe that in order to find out the exact rought how many people who was on the journey. Winter satelight picture of the snow melts highlight the trails for very oldtrails
Makes sense to a degree , , especially when the main trading route follows Hwy 80 deviating exactly as it was written , especially since you are closest to the Mtn Chain at that point ( 6:22 ) there they deviated right , maybe thats why the Hwy Dept made the road from there on ( 80 ) to the Cotton City Transfer station .
Your headed farther north ....To San Simon and farther away from the Mtn Chain .
Looking on Google Earth , there are no trails , no roads , from a geological point of view to go that route , when the Mtn Gap mentioned in the writing is probably at ( Granite Gap ) adventure Park . .
Sounds like you have spent some time researching the. We might know more tonight as Deni Seymour is giving a lecture about her most recent discovery www.oldpueblo.org
There's an academic source for translations of Coronado and other Spanish expeditions called the Cibola Project people might want to check out.
I am unfamiliar with the Cibola Project, I will need to look into that. I have wanted to get the Flint's translations but it is a bit pricey. amzn.to/2NlYwix
Excellent chronicle of the Expedition. Ty
Excellent ....makes sense....horseback...Douglas Preston....wrote an account of his horseback trek retracing Coronado...is a good read..
One of my favorite books, but his route was WAY off in my opinion.
I happen to have been born in Casas Grandes Chihuahua, the place where Caveza de Vaca came through in around 1532. Paquime Indian city was in decline then
Cool. Most reports I have read suggest that Paquime was abandoned by 1500, do you think people were still living there by 1532?
@@AncientPottery yes it is believed that the Mogollon indigenous people were living in Paquime but they were not the original settlers
@@AncientPottery Paquime was abandoned by the original founders in 1450. Some Chihuahua historians believe that the Aztecs who founded Tenochtitlan came from here
Okay, you're roped me in and appealed to my inner detective. You mentioned in another video about the pre-Internet days, when we had to research everything and study photographs for the smallest clues. That's how I grew up, too, and I think there are some new ways to study those old clues.
I am the same way, a good historical mystery is irresistible to me. There is a lot of enjoyment to be had following clues in old manuscripts.
@@AncientPottery I was looking at New Mexico LIDAR data for the Lordsburg Playa, but the data is insufficient. If they ever get detailed data uploaded, you might be able to discern the slight depression where the Spanish horses passed across the playa long ago. I was also hoping that Google Earth would show a deposit of red clay along Mangas Creek, which could indicate proximity to where the ruin was, but alas, the coloration of the satellite imagery wasn't clear enough.
@@renewedrewilder830 Great ideas. The Butterfield Trail crossed the Lordsburg Playa so if they crossed in the same area it would be obscured.
I lived in Morenci, Az for a number of years and one of stories i heard was a hunter got lost in the mountains north of town on what's locally called the Coronado trail and sought shelter in a cave during a snowstorm. Supposably in that cave was a number of Conquistador artifacts , helmets, spears, and whatnot. Then, after the guy got back to safety, he could not relocate the cave . Also on the 191 highway as you get into the residential area a story i heard was there was a home owner having a basement put in under her house when the construction crew ran into a couple fully armoured Spaniard bodies that were buried there. This is an area where a lot of indian artifacts are commonly found as the Gila River in the day used to reach up that far inland. The lady then canceled the project in order not to disturb the grave site. Stories like these tell me the Spaniards were all over the area long before the Mormon settlers showed up
Excellent journey, well done! I know you mentioned the original journey took place in June, early 1500's. Back then they went off the Julian Calendar, wasn't until Oct 1582 the calendar advanced 10 days to correct the calendar due to too many leap years. This 10 day difference may have a slight temperature variance from today using the same date. Just something to consider, probably during this original journey the calendar was probably off little over 9 days not quite the 10 day advancement of Oct 1582.
An excellent story, enjoyed it very much.
I really enjoyed this. Thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it!
I keep wondering what the weather was like back in the 16th century. They had to have walked on game trails or trade routes. Hiking out here in the plains can be difficult.
I seldom look up . Im always looking at where i put my foot down due to the cactus.
The Natives had a system of trails crisscrossing all over this land. They no doubt had Indian guides and followed known routes.
Totally enjoyed this. Just found your videos. I live in central NM and I am digging into the early Spanish history. I have some theorys about the Coronado Expedition about the alterior reasons and plans he implemented on that trip.
That's great, Coronado is such an interesting subject for research.
Great video! Visited Coronado national monument in Az last year and fell in love with the area. Off topic a bit… who is the flamenco/ Spanish finger style guitarist that was used throughout your video?
Love these explorations
Your history videos are fascinating
Thanks, I have another one of these all made and it will come out on June 22.
Good stuff! You should do one on Juan Bautista De Anza and his trail!
Not a bad idea.
That was very cool, thank you.
There has to be markers along the head of the river. On very large rocks. There has to be markers.
I agree, unfortunately 500 years of people messing with things has made it hard to find these markers. There is an interesting story in the Coronado chronicles about the ships that were bringing supplies to the expedition getting all the way up to the Colorado River delta and leaving a note under a big tree. Then later members of Coronado's party found that note and I always wonder how in all that wilderness did they manage to find the same tree. There had to have been some sort of markers or something left to help them find it.
I'm very interested in the subject matter of the Spanish incursions into southwest and California. Where I live there is still the De Anza trail heading into what is now Los Angeles. I'm very interested in more content of Cabeza de Vaca. He lived an interesting life of an explorer.
Thank you, yes Cabeza de Vaca was an interesting character, I wish he had written a more detailed account of his journey.
This is a great video and an interesting take on the route Coronado took to Zuni and Acoma…one question comes to my mind…did he continue north from here staying west of the Mogollons and travel to the San Francisco River/Tularosa River…essentially following HWY 180 route (+/-)? This route would have been very rugged in my mind, but I guess they all would have been.
In my opinion, yes. That is actually the easiest route through the mountains. Other proposed routes further west are much more rugged, have you driven US 191 or US 60 north from the Gila?
@@AncientPottery
Yes...HWY 191 most recently...and agree, it is much more of a difficult climb towards Alpine than Hwy 180. Always made me wonder if it was the Coronado Trail they would have been exhausted had they followed that route. Hwy 60 was a long time ago but what I recall it is a steep run up the rim as well. So if Coranado did go North along the Mogollons did he cross Salaiz Pass and go NE towards Reserve or did he head west towards Springerville/St John's? I guess either are possible but I don't know the ancient trade routes...anyway thanks for getting me to think about it a little.
Did you look for the ruin in that canyon area, it seems to have alluded many people, Emile Haury looked for it...no dice as did Doug Preston, have you read Doug's book..Cities of Gold? If so how close does it match up to your hypothesis..it's been so long since I read it. I have some thoughts in regard to glaze ware pottery I would be interested in talking with you, I was friends with Mike Hawley and spent a lot of time with him alone firing pottery. Your videos are very interesting.
No, that Mangus Creek area is all private land, I will need to get permission from land owners before I can look there. Haury was looking in the wrong area and Preston just followed Haury and Bolton’s ideas, way too far west. I could do a whole video on why those guys were way off base, maybe I will some time. I have considered making a video about Hawley, I have a couple of friends who knew him. I would love to talk with you about glaze ware and Hawley. Use the contact form on my website ancientpottery.how to connect with me.
Cities of Gold is a awesome read. I think it's time to read it again. It's been awhile.
Excellent video bud ….thanks
Glad you enjoyed it
That was awesome 👍
Thanks
Good work. Thanks!
You need to read “cities of Gold,” by Douglas Preston. Three men rode the trail on horseback and documented everything including all the history.
I've read it, they were WAY off.
@@AncientPottery hmm
Excellent!!!
Thanks
Te falta nombra a su capitán Gonzalo de Cardenas descubridor del Gran Cañón y por respeto a su gobernador Coronado .
Le pone su Apellido al cañón llamándolo " Gran Cañón de Coronado " ,con el tiempo se Camila por Gran Cañón del Colorado ,por sus aguas de color ferroso o por su tradición dialéctica.
Gonzalo de Cardenas es paisano mío nació en Llerena provincia de Badajoz y de la comunidad de Extremadura , ( España. )
Muchas gracias
Tovar
I can't help but wonder how things would have turned out had Coronado come through at a less harsh time of year.
Good point, the time of year may have influenced numerous aspects of the trip. Certainly the amount of food the natives had to "share" was effected.
Que Viva El Reino de Pamplona Navarre Para Siempre y Que Viva La Gente de Norte España y Norte Nuevo Mexico también Que Viva! Todavía estamos aquí !
Gracias amigo.
I have been looking at this similar but more of the superstition mtns. Pre 60's mapping has a lot of the original names you can follow the names and it leads you threw the mtns
Coronado did not get anywhere near the Superstitions.
@@AncientPottery no but the Spanish lived through out the west the only way they could travel is the old land marks on the route
Valdez Very Cool!
Great! Thank you
You are welcome!
Did Coronado not cross the Pecos south of Santa Rosa NM? And had to build a bridge to cross. Not much water in most times
I don't know much about that part of his journey but he did definitely cross the Pecos.
Excellent, thanks.
You are welcome!
Thanks for the History
You're welcome.
Glad I found your channel
Welcome aboard!
i always maintained that coronado stayed more to the east going north then to the Zuni coming from the east rather than the south.. I am dead certain they never went through morenci then luna and st john etc. Extremely rough country. PPL in Eager and Luna dont like that. if a rancher finds a piece of iron looking like a half of a horse shoe, BINGO ! cause they used split horse shoes. instead of one piece, it was two halves that was put together to form the horse shoe.. good stuff Andy.
I would assume that searching for the abandoned adobe those in the know would have focused in on satellite images-right?
No, any 700 year old adobe ruins leave only a lump of soil which doesn't look like much from the air.
i always wondered if those metal hats were painful to wear
No kidding!
Check out the great book by Richard Shelton, ‘Going Back To Bisbee’. He was a professor at the University of Arizona, and he dearly loved the Arizona and Mexico, and he loved history. He sadly passed away in November 2022. His book is interesting and entertaining…that guy had a great sense of humor! My goal next year is to follow the route he takes in his book from Tucson to Bisbee. I grew up down in that area, but I never knew a lot of the stuff he talks about. I will be seeing it with new eyes.
Andy, kudos on your channel here and especially this post. May I share this post on the Coronado Natl Memorial Facebook page?
Of course Ron. Thanks.
@@AncientPottery Thanks! Just posted it. I favor the San Pedro route, for no particular reason, but you are persuasive!
Thanks.
I have read all the accounts in my Castenada book, and also lived in SE Arizona, and I still think he followed the San Pedro. For one, we know that Coronado was in Corazon in Mexico, and the San Pedro is almost due north from there. Two, there were other trade routes from Salado lands, one of which went from the Gila near Pima, and over to Aravaipa, and from there to the San Pedro. Three, there's many creeks in deep canyons, two of which are Bonita and Eagle Creeks, and they are in the area he would have gone through.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply Robert. Nobody has ever conclusively proved where Corazón was located, archaeologists have looked but never has it been found. The trade route you speak of did not end at the San Pedro but continued in a SW trajectory into the Tucson basin and from there south does the Santa Cruz. As odd as it may seem because it seems logical, the San Pedro was never part of any major north-south trade routes. I think it was cultural, you could travel the eastern route (San Simon and Rio Yaqui) through Opata lands or the western route (Santa Cruz and Rio San Miguel) through O'odham lands. The middle route down the San Pedro and Rio Sonora was partly O'odam and partly Opata who were not always on friendly terms and therefore this route was seldom used.
Werent the Opata were part of an existing western trade route between Mexico and the sw? So it would make sense coranado would take the Western route up to zuni, especially as the abandonment of Eastern AZ would make travel along those routes harder and with less opportunities for resupplying from local populations.
The trade routes went up through the Opata, Cabeza de Vaca came down through the Opata. The Spanish were following Indian trade routes and the locals were used to traveling light and fast.
Great stuff thank you
Glad you enjoyed it
And any area's of interest should be able to expect to medal detect any location that is a good camping area to look for on the trail repairs. I have a few ideas. But you are doing good. But I would focus on the Spanish named towns
Saludos desde México. By the way, Jezz Bezos named one of his Rockets of his company, Coronado after the great spanish Explorer.
Probably not the most popular name for a rocket today with all the anti-colonization feelings going around.
Good thoughts, those areas need further exploration..
Great video
Thank you
Good video
Thanks
Did anyone find the ruins??? Thks
So that little museum down there in the national monument seems to have it all wrong. They got him going north right there...just a bit east in the valley.
There are many different theories, this is just my theory. Although I do think that the monument has it wrong.
Great.
Chihuahuan desert. Love it.
☮️🇺🇸
Thank you, it is beautiful country.
Brilliant presentation about a truly remarkable expedition. I’ve seen some of this, but it’s difficult to deconstruct. Bear in mind, at least a portion of DeVaca’s accounts were fabrication
Thank you. yes, a lot of the accounts were sketchy. Some of the accounts of the Coronado expedition were written 20 years after.
Douglas Preston wrote Cities of Gold, an account of his effort to trace Coronado on horseback.
One of my favorite books, I have read it several times. Preston was fun to travel with but he didn't do much original research into Coronado's route, he mostly just read and followed Bolton's interpretation.
Good video.
Thanks!
The search for Curly's gold
very informative thx
You're welcome
In an area covering a couple of acres about 8 miles SW of Deming can be found many many shards of pottery and arrowheads from the Mimbres culture. I believe these predate the Spaniards though.
Lots of great archaeology around Deming, they have an awesome museum too. Thanks!
I also think that it would have been comforting to the spirit to know they were on a trail. Trails would have led to watering holes or something i feel.
That is definitely true. They followed ancient trails that led from watering hole to watering hole.
I'm surprised at the amount of contact Coronado had with the locals to be "hearing" about this and that. I thought he came up the Rio Grande. That area of would have been more desolate than the Rio Grande Valley.
The Rio Grande didn't become the north/south corridor of choice until the 1600s. Even back in prehistoric times, most trade between the Southwest and Mexico came up the west side of the Sierra Madre and through southeastern Arizona.
@@AncientPottery interesting. I took History of NM. I think this fact was barely mentioned, so it never registered. They barely did mention trade came up pacific side. Now that I think about it, I recall having amazement or even doubt when pacific trade was mentioned. For some reason, I discounted it, probably because I have lived in the North Rio Grande Valley. The class was 40+ years ago.
Andy's, estás enfocado en los logros de las exploraciones europeas en América, te sugiero que busques más información en los naturales, ellos son los que encontraron las reservas de agua,los españoles solamente contrataron guias.
No es así, ¿has mirado mi otro contenido? Este video es sobre Coronado, por lo que obviamente tiene un enfoque europeo, pero.
Coronado definitivamente estaba siguiendo senderos nativos y siguiendo guías nativos. Desafortunadamente, los nativos no escribieron nada para nosotros, así que mucho de lo que sabemos sobre esa época tiene que estar basado en relatos europeos, sin importar cuán mal escritos estén.
If you look at the history of Coronado and his future contemporaries, and pay attention to what they were actually doing, you then get an idea of where they most-likely traveled to and thru. He was bringing Aztec gold from Mexico, up into the U.S. as direct-north as he could, then turning West, headed for what became California...to the missions there, which helped facilitate the gold being shipped back to Spain on the 'Western route' (down the baja, parallel to South America, and then East, into the Atlantic). So, they were 'wagon-training' gold to a shipping point, even during the original expeditions. Now...what other 'mysterious gold story' comes up when you come North into Arizona? Jacob Waltz 'The Lost Dutchman Mine'. Many rumors in the day claimed 'the gold was over 99% pure'...a level to high, not to have already been worked. Did Waltz in fact, find a cave or THE cave, in which the Spaniards stored the Aztec gold as some 'waypoint' to their West Coast shipping departure point? There are reports of Spanish 'helmets', spears, swords found in the Superstition Mountains...were they 'drops'? Why would they be there, as well as found in several caves up in the Superstitions? If you overlay a map of the 'Search of the Superstitions', with all known expedition maps through that general area, you find while some 'loop north, then west' of the possible 'Waltz Mine' site...some go through some of the very same valleys...and interestingly enough, it is some of the LATTER EXPEDITIONS that do so, not the first ones...almost like they were becoming afraid of being hijacked, so used waypoints to 'store' gold under-guard, then reduce the size of each 'Arizona-to-the-Coast' shipment from such a 'guarded facility'. Again, did Waltz stumble on the remains, some 200-years later?
That is folklore, not history.
I want to go! Lol
Cabeza deVaca's shipwreck was near what is Tampa, Florida, today. 300 men survived. Only 4 made it 8 years later to Mexico City, 1 of them an African Muslim slave named Estevanico
Thank you for that Bob. The survivors however did not walk from Tampa Bay to Mexico City, they sailed all the way to Galveston Island near Houston, then walked from there to Mexico.
@@AncientPottery Yep,what you said. I still wonder if Cabeza actually saw what is now Alibates park,but for sure he walked further nekked than I can in full hiking gear. Salute!
Conventional thought has the expedition moving up the San Pedro River Valley, not the route you claim.
Death to conventional thinking
a lot of that terrain would have changed over the 480 years since then. been some pretty wet ones in that time span.
Had to be brave, back then, never know if the indians would welcome you or attack. Im sure they had alot more game to hunt but the weapons were not accurate. Loved the video.
Thanks, yes. Some of the natives were welcoming at first and later not so much.
Can you imagine traveling with heavy armor metal plateing gear through 100 degree hot baking sun.
That or an arrow through yer brisket!
I don't think they wore armor on a daily basis. Probably they only put the armor on before going into battle.
I use to live near the Gila River which flow in SE NW path That was the Southern border of the the US and Mexico prior to the Gadsden Purchase. Tucson was in Mexico .
Cabeza de Vaca is the patron conquistador of Galveston island (where I live).
Patron conquistador? I've never heard of such a thing.
@@AncientPottery I don't know the actual term for the conquistador credited with discovering a New World location, if such descriptor exists.
They found Spanish swords and red flint in Stanton County, Kansas. The Red Flint is Native to Arizona or New Mexico, I can't remember as well as I used too. I mention the red flint because both Spanish parties had Indians with them to help with the work loads. Slaves.
That's awesome, you should talk to an archaeologist about that
These are my grandparents, and one of them is Marcos, Alonso, de la Garza, Falcon descendent of king David leaves me to be the grandson
Like your work...just keep the music down please, ouch..blessings on yuh our new work!
Ok, thank you
It’s hard to find coronados path because the river of blood dried up decades ago.
Ha ha. I don't disagree.
Thank you for this. These days having anything to do with colonial Spanish history is met by hostile feelings in some quarters.
I’m not saying that Coronado was a great guy, but history still deserves to be studied even if the outcome was bad.
Exactly.
American supremacy needs all traces of history erased....
Having lived in Yuma I can say that the hottest months are July and August.
Southwest Arizona (Yuma) doesn't get the same level of monsoon moisture that southeast Arizona does. In SE AZ June is actually the hottest month, the rains in July and August actually cool the temperature a bit in most years.
@@AncientPottery True, SE AZ is different than the western part of the state.