It's terrible. Star Trek, Star Wars, Jurassic Park, Alien, Terminator, Ghostbusters, DC Movies, and even some of the Marvel stuff now feel way too "ironic", cynical and nihilistic compared to the originals. It's like they are afraid of sincerity.
At this point, what's left to make sequels and prequels and re-boots and sea-boots and extended-cinematic-universe-franchises out of? Flash Gordon? Thundercats? Mr. Rogers v. Mr. Dressup? Eventually Hollywood will have to start coming up with some original franchise ideas before everything burns out. However they'll probably just start hard-sea-booting the soft reboots and making prequels for the sequels and making alternate-timeline-extended-universes out of gritty re-imaginings of Cheers or WKRP in Cincinnati. As long as they don't do something supremely sacrilegious and make a re-fuckulation of Groundhog Day I'll be alright. If that went down in flames thanks to J.J. Abrams or Brett Ratner that would be the proverbial straw that breaks the back of my nostalgia...
Timm Robocop, Total Recall, Halloween, Evil Dead, Indy, Lord of the Rings is becoming a tv show, and I think I heard that they are doing Starship Troopers too which will no doubt loose all of the satire. 😝 getting old sucks
It's okay. I just pretend these never happened. Or more precisely I don't pretend, I just don't care. Star Wars is an old flawed but beloved trilogy and so on... It is called growing up. These things are becoming the new antique themes, you know, or the new operas: anybody can take a stab at the Ring of the Nibelungen, sometimes it is good, sometimes it is bad, sometimes it is flawed but interesting, and nobody cares about continuity as long as what you are watching is good. Sure nowadays these things are copyrighted to the end of times but then you can take alternative routes like what they did with the Orville.
"Star Trek used to be a set of ideals, but now Star Trek is names you know, and places you know, where people can shoot at each other in the places." Rich Evans Truer words have never been spoken. A franchise being pillaged for no other goal than profit. Not entirely unlike another rather popular sci fi franchise.....
If only Star Trek had been able to become public domain at least the fans could've taken over instead of corporations cutting it up into pieces & squeezing it for profit
The darkness of DS9 was a response to how cleanly TNG resolved a lot of very complex situations. For example, the Enterprise would get two conflicting sides to sign a peace treaty and fly off. DS9 showed how problems aren't solved that easily. A treaty doesn't make decades of distrust and war disappear. Someone has to stay and deal with the nitty gritty. Someone has to rebuild the society after the war. Someone has to make sure that the treaty is enforced after the diplomats have left. Someone has to keep the peace if one side decided to circumvent or break the treaty. Picard lays the foundation for peace, but Sisko stays and roll up his sleeves to rebuild the civilization. And DS9 never contradicted the message of TNG. DS9 never said that we shouldn't work together or try to resolve conflicts through diplomacy. The darkness in DS9 was to emphasize just how important TNG's ideals of cooperation, diplomacy, and peace are. The whole point of episodes like "Siege of AR-558" is to show how horrific war is and why we have to do everything we can to avoid it. Discovery and Picard have the darkness of DS9 but not the depth. They want to exist in the more complex and gritty world of DS9 but they still resolved problems as easily as TNG, without doing any of the extra work of DS9.
This is extremely accurate and poignant to why the people behind the scenes of the new shows don't understand Star Trek. They can claim all they want that these new shows will portray different sides of the Federation, or they'll give us in depth character drama, or they'll explore new themes and ideals, but they aren't willing to put in the work to reach all of those pay-offs in a satisfying way. They expect us to already know and relate to the characters right off the bat, without giving us room to understand them genuinely and see what makes them who they are. Every single Star Trek show before this had episodes just dedicated to what each respective crew member enjoyed doing, or how they did their job, or whatever, as well as the super suspenseful conflict episodes where we saw how each character reacted in a stressful situation; there were episodes where each character had a chance to shine in terms of seeing how they do their jobs, or seeing how they make it out of a tense situation, or, in the case of Data, literally seeing what their day looks like from start to end. Those were the episodes that defined the characters, and classic Trek writers were smart enough to keep those episodes far away from the huge, impactful, overarching stories. They did so because to properly establish character in an ensemble, longform, standalone episode-type show, you have to give time to how each character explores their personalities on screen. Here's an example-- there's an episode of DS9 entirely dedicated to Sisko building and flying an ancient Bajoran solar-sailer, and that's it. He builds it, there's some initial resistance from the Cardassian Govt. about the process, eventually Jake joins in, and they just fly it and talk. Of course some other things happen, they realize how a solar-sailer got so far from Bajor and eventually the Cardassians show up to bafflingly congratulate them, but that's the episode. It's not great, it's very slow and the ending feels a little tacked on, but it's fantastic in terms of understanding what Ben Sisko and Jake Sisko are passionate about, how they talk to each other, what each of them wants out of life, etc. It really helps impart the strong bond they have, without the need for senseless action, a melodramatic climax, or yelling, because they didn't need it. A random yet simple story about a father and his son on a boat, sailing through the galaxy and talking is somehow more emotional and interesting than all the space action of Discovery and Picard combined. Now, on the complete other side of that, is the episode "For the Uniform", also from DS9. This is a fantastic one, in contrasting the ideals of Michael Eddington and Ben Sisko. Sisko is pissed, he tries catching Eddington the Starfleet way, but it fails after a starship and a planet get fucked over pretty bad. Out of ideas, Sisko plays by Eddington's rules, making himself out to be the "Javert" to Eddington's "Jean Valjean", and ultimately forcing Eddington to turn himself in. It's a fantastic episode to see how the ideals of the Federation, and Sisko himself, were tested; Sisko was left with little else to do, not by much more urgency than was present before, but simply by the fact that he had his chance to catch a traitor. Would this episode have been as effective on its own, without episodes like the solar-sailer episode?? Maybe, but I think the slower episodes create more stakes and character drama when they're there. They give us something to call back to, something we know the characters truly care about because we saw it. If the characters fail at their mission, they put those things they care about in jeopardy; if Sisko didn't catch Eddington, who knows what would've happened to Jake, or Cassidy, or his crew, or the space station, or Bajor, or any one of the things we see him so passionately fight for in every episode of the show. Modern Trek doesn't understand this. I can't imagine an episode of Discovery just dedicated to Michael Burnham or Tilly or Stametz just going about their day, or having to figure out an engineering problem, or how to properly make a souffle or something. Just anything that isn't so mind-meltingly over the top and grandiose every episode. Not to say an episode doesn't have to have stakes to be a good character exploration, but these new shows have no brake pedal, in terms of just taking a slower approach to storytelling. They don't want to show you the things the characters care about because, to them, that's time wasted. You can't have modern Trek without a space battle, or yelling, or sweeping orchestra. It's soap opera. They just slam their feet on the gas as hard as they can, and expect you to read all the billboards of the story along the way and understand why these characters act this way. It's lazy writing is what it is and it upsets me to no end.
@@themastermindwithahat607 True, the only episode of Discovery that I like at all was the time-loop episode where Stamz teaching Burham about romance and dancing. The only time we actually get to learn the context with which each of them sees the world. The rest of the time it is just people doing stuff for "reasons".
@@agilemind6241 I agree 100%, and honestly that episode really did help me understand who Stametz and Burnham were as people; I understood Burnham's apprehensive nature and Stametz's passion for what true romance is. It was such a small step in the right direction but it was a step nonetheless. It sucks cuz I can see where Discovery can be interesting, where there's something all of these actors are trying to convey through their characters, but whether it's the writing or the directing or what, it just isn't coming across.
Everything you wrote is true. I would also like to add though that DS9 was what happened in the Star Trek universe on an outpost far from the core of the Federation. The season 2 two parter on the Maquis summed it up when Sisko rants about how perfect Earth is and how it’s just not like that on the boundary of the Federation. That’s why DS9 isn’t inconsistent with TNG. Everyone strives for the same values and ideals. Sometimes it’s just not possible to be that clean.
The mirror universe is traditionally used to show character traits exaggerated or flipped, that doesn't work when you barely know the character, doing a giant mirror universe plot in the 1st season of such a short run of episodes makes no sense, it just feels like pandering fan fiction.
I would love to say that "Mirror, Mirror" was a first season episode, but I think that type of humor would go above everyone's head. It makes me feel sad. )o:Þ
@@LikaLaruku Mirror Kira was terrible, but the role reversal for the humans characters was good, and as well as the way it gave the Prime characters a new perspective on each other and themselves. That is usually the best way to use alternate universes in Sci-Fi.
About the only good thing about this series I can think is being able to harness the power of Gene Roddenberry spinning in his grave for perpetual energy.
"How does it feel to have lived long enough to see all of your favorite franchises go down in flames?" - Rich Evans And now we have Star Trek: Dark Star making Red Dwarf look like serious and deep science fiction.
Please, Don’t even try to compare the science fiction and comedic masterpiece that is Red Dwarf to this new upcoming steaming pile of horseshit, especially not in the same sentence
Neither Star Trek, or Star Wars, will ever achieve the level of Red Dwarf. They won't even try, because they know it's impossible. Lister: "Kryten, it's 7:00 in the morning, don't start with that Star Trek crap." I'm paraphrasing, I forgot the exact words.
"Star Wars The Phantom Menace is the greatest thing since my son. It's so dense. Every single scene has so much going on... and like my son, who eventually came to be ceo of a successful and popular chain of gas stations, the best part is that it'll be remembered forever..." *shudder*
@@GeorgeMonet you do realize you are talking about star trek right? The show created by an actual communist for the purpose of subverting cultural norms? Star trek is just doing what it was always meant to do. Only now they have worse righters and are more open with their agenda.
@@nameredacted7622 Gene Went Commy'ish when he reached his foggy days of old age and drugs. And even then his fundamental beliefs when he chipped in on the show were more steeped in humanitarianism than communism. Even then his influence of TNG diminished as the show went on and by a pretty decent amount even before Season 1 was over. Whenever I see idiots calling the show out for being commy shit it's usually in the first season where they went through writers faster than red shirts on foreign planets and Gene thought people should be openly fucking in the background of Riza scenes on open broadcast Television. "Subverting cultural norms" as far as anything except Discorvery/Picard is actual smooth brain theory shit though. The kinda shit that you have to read on a forum with a small hand full of examples that only exist because of college level writers who likely didn't make it a fortnight in that position and Gene's dementia. If you want to finely detail how a civilization could reach an age without crime of greed without pissing some overly political sperg off due to the nature of reaching said state then be my guest.
@@GeorgeMonet Money and a general lack of concern for the original property is why Discovery and Picard were shit. Enterprise was also shit but at least commendable for attempting to not be shit for its fanbase. THough this is in comparison to STD so it's not saying much. DS9 was rocky and ultimately brought in the less than subtle soap opera days of Star Trek but still had the best (and possibly the worst) episodes of the franchise and there are certain things about it that were good such as the Characters, Character arks, Universe building, philosophical and political waxing ect.
Would Rich and Mike have been happier if the "War Am Bad" message was instead a cut to black with the following message: "Only through the elimination of violence can we achieve world peace."?
I would love to have youse two do proper Re:Views of the old series, like TOS, TNG and Deep Space 9. We get bits and pieces of references, but it would be nice to have a coherent presentation of what you think of em.
@@davidchicoine6949 the cgi has not aged terribly. compared to some other things. and the fucking puppets practical effects like that NEVER lose value. The thing is even when it was airing they knew it was cgi so they never tried to photo realistic it.
farscape was the shit, i even really liked when the guys from farscape were main characters in stargate-SG1. both shows were great...its too bad neither one got a real ending (atleast farscape got like a web series thing)
Klingons only got into advanced tech because they somehow managed to beat a more advanced race that invaded their planet a long time ago, then took their ships and shit
+Ian Phoenix-"Funny" enough but unsurprising given how popular both series are, the creator of the Battlestar Galactica (remake) is Ronald D. Moore, one of the most well known Star Trek writers and often one of my favorites. He clearly loved Star Trek, cared about it, and knew instinctively and cared about the details (he did help flesh out the Klingons quite a bit in TNG), to where it's very sad he hasn't been involved with anything past a few episodes of Voyager after Deep Space Nine ended (although it's also clear Brannon Braga, who he considered a close friend at the time, screwed him over and while he never gave the full details, Braga and Rick at least shut him out from involvement with the other writers and even changed meeting rooms on him to where he would be led to an empty room.) He has obviously down well for himself after Star Trek and a lot of that probably has to do with his enormous talent and his love for any series he is doing. Someone like Ronald D. Moore needed to be involved with a current or future Star Trek series, not these transparent studio hacks, but even someone as well loved as Bryan Fuller (who did a few Voyager episodes I really love) knew pretty quickly that he had to get the hell out of dodge as fast as he could.
Now I really want an episode where theyre visiting a Klingon city and they take a wrong turn and open a door revealing bland office cubicles with well groomed klingons going about their business. Then one of them just quietly comes over and shuts the door.
In terms of the Klingons being dumb as rocks (you're totally right), I always dug how Mass Effect approached the issue. Their Klingon substitute, the Krogans, are also warlike and can't get over tribal differences, to the point of nearly nuking each other into the stone age. But when it came time to fight a bigger, badder threat, the Rachni (big space cockroaches), a SEPARATE hyper-intelligent species, the Salarians, came down and more or less gave them space tech, ships and weapons, etc. in order to get them to help with the bug problem. The Rachni get wiped out and then you have a weird, uncomfortable situation where now there's just a bunch of Conan the Barbarians with warp drives and WMDs dicking around the galaxy. Not only that, but they reproduce super fucking fast, to the point where those same Salarians "secretly" introduce a virus into the population that makes all but like 5% of them sterile. They get found out, and that's essentially where the games start their story, where it's giant fucking point of tension throughout the main plot. That trilogy of games ended on some iffy notes, but I always liked the added depth they gave to the traditional Klingon dynamic, beyond "we like war, but you like talking and stuff," as well as addressing how a race like that got into space in the first place, if they hate science so damn much.
With the Krogan they didn't totally distain science on a whole,they highly valued Krogan scientists who studied guns,warfare,weaponsmiths,armour,ships and the genophage obviously. I think the Krogan are just selective over which field of science is more valuable to them.I think the Klingons would be the same tbh.
@@izzeypally That means they still have to reverse engineer the tech though. While that may certainly be easier than starting from scratch, for a warrior race like the klingons, it may as well be fruitless.
In a galaxy where civilizations span multiple planets, war involves about 1,000 people. That's not a war, that's a battle. 10 ships fighting each other isn't a war. 200 people dying isn't a war.
Yeah there's a complete disconnect between what they claim the stakes are and what we see, there's one point where they say like 3 trillion lives are on the line but somehow a single ship is swinging a war of that scale, even if the thing can teleport where ever shouldn't it be encountering fleets of ships that instantly fuxk it up anyway.
Yeah the episode the siege of AR 558 made a mockery of the whole conflict. I get budget limitations but they could have implied at least a supposedly pivotal battle in the conflict meant to show the horrors of war consisted of more than 200 people. The fact they kept referring back to it as important when people would never refer to a minor skirmish during WW2 as such when one is at galactic scale and the other national really ruined my suspension of disbelief and stakes
So just a pet theory of mine but I think that Mike is actually a Mirror Universe version of himself, replaced after the release of half in the bag episode 4.
Spoilers for the recently released Discovery novels if anyone cares Yes, the good Lorca survived the destruction of the Buran and is still in the Mirror Universe Now, whether or not they confine the good Lorca to the books or this is meant as a hint to where the show is going in Season 2 is anyone's guess
The thing with commander Landry is this: She is mean in both universes. But she smiles more in the mirror universe, because that's where she fits in. So that's not an oversight, that's ingenious.
TOS and TNG were about describing a positive future for humanity. At some episodes that positive future was being tested (e.g. "The Wounded"). At DS9 the producers asked themselves; What if we take episodes like "The Wounded" and turn them into seasons long arcs. The result was that while TOS and TNG described the positive future, DS9, asked a philosophical question; "How do we defend that positive future, while remaining true to our ideals?". Exactly because DS9 asked a philosophical question ("How do I defend my ideals without becoming what I am fighting?") DS9 was 100% Trek. Darker? Yes. More realistic? Perhaps/Depending your perspective. Instead, STD is the series' equivalent of an Internet "edge-lord". It was "dark" for the sake of it. It was gore even. It wanted to shock for the sake of shocking. DS9 was nothing like that.
@@ThreadBomb TNG was largely diplomatic, but Voyager had tons of exploration, as the TOS. DS9 had some exploration, but they were mostly not very memorable one-off episodes, whereas the big memorable arcs were all diplomatic/political.
I love it when Mike and Rich reference older series like DS9. I almost always know what episodes they're going to mention just before they say them. I too thought of the Klingon scientist in TNG (Suspicions s6e22), but also the comment Martok made in DS9 (A Time to Stand s6e1) when he tells Sisko "Klingons make great warriors, but terrible doctors". Also Clint Howard plays a crazy guy in DS9 (Past Tense - Part 2 s3e12).
Went back to Netflix to watch the rest of the season, which I forgot about, just to fully enjoy this review - meta entertainment everyone - we live in a time where reviews are more entertaining than the shows themselves 😁
I really appreciate the Star Trek reviews Mike and Rich have such a great time and the way they reference episodes for privious series off the top of their heads. Cool to see other hard core fans like me. Thanks RLM
I found Michael Burnham to be completely unlikable throughout the series. When she said "I'm here to save you", all I was thinking was girl did you not learn a thing while on the ship for 7 years?
I've watched this whole Discovery series so far so many times without having even put any outside effort or attention into Discovery itself, and I feel the better man for it.
So, a character whose main trait is their adherence to logic should not have stylized hair. This is an inefficient use of time as it serves no logical purpose.
@@GeorgeMonet Funny that you jumped right to 'women' when I said 'character'. I'm saying that any character, who values logic above all else, would, logically, see the endeavor of stylizing their hair as an illogical social ritual and abstain. They would maintain a very neat, professional hairstyle, much like the original Spock's Bowl cut. I also said nothing of intellect. Only that if they wished to be defined by their logic, they should act logical.
A good writer may integrate that into the character. Have another character comment on the way she stylizes her hair yet proclaims to be solely logical and it demonstrates how she isn't really. However, this is Discovery. So DARKNESS AND EXPLOSIONS.
@@TerranGuy93 Yeah, quirks are great. The purely logical being that picked a particular style because they found it to elicit the most desirable responses is creating depth and building on an established characteristic. Having them use their unique style as a way of showing their emotional growth away from pure logic is also great. But having a shallow set of contradictory traits makes the character look ill conceived and poorly developed.
It's worse than that, it's fan wanking while violating the originals with a spiky stick. And yes, they need to end. They don't make good movies out of it, anime does though, which is strange.
Animes are usually one shot seasons of the manga arcs with some follow ups again based on following written arcs. I also wish they'd do new original stuff. Star Wars and Star Trek are done. As a fan you want more but precisely that's the reason you should not get any more. JRR Tolkien started to write a sequel to LOTR but he was smart enough to scrap it when he realized there is nothing more to tell as the LOTR story was done. Some new space opera like Star Trek but with new ideas and visions in a new galaxy setting would be nice.
'mangalores-x_x , in many cases it's usually better to do tangentially related things, rather than some absurd follow-ups, that's what I like about several anime "remakes". Films usually take about 2 hours each. The best anime remakes are things like Gatchaman Crowds, or Casshern Sins, they took just a concept or 2 made what they wanted with it, not creatively bound by dead flesh that should be left dead. Instead of making it more sanitised and pointless, with the largest possible appeal, both were made more original than you generally see and more creative(Hell, Kyashan went from a kids show with some heavy drama to a contemplative post-apocalyptic masterpiece)
To everyone confused about the fraud comment, you're all a bunch of hack frauds! And yeah, the gang calling people hacks, particularly Adam Sandler, is just a running "joke" of theirs.
So It Goes ... You know it's bad when you gone as far back as you could to watch everything of theirs and now you miss having tons of episodes to binge.
+Whoopie Moopie?-There is a small consolation in that this series is buried underneath a paid service: CBS All Access, that you have to pay a decent amount of money for. It's easily far more avoidable and easy to miss if you don't want to find it, especially given that a lot of fans are unsurprisingly and understandably very pissed off. The word of mouth either for Discovery or CBS All Access hasn't been good as far as I can, CBS All Access doesn't command the same attention or reputation as either Netflix, Hulu, or even HBO Now. HBO Now offers a lot of bang for its buck and you get access to a huge amount of HBO's library, both old and new. CBS All Access offers a very paltry and limited library. Discovery was supposed to be a launch title to catapult this streaming service, and I don't think it was able to do it the way CBS/Paramount wanted it to. I would be far from surprised if this streaming service is either downsized further from what it currently is or they will quietly scrub it.
I watched the series as it was coming out, and I thought I liked it enough as I was watching it. However, now that some time has passed, I can't remember anything about it. That speaks volumes about the show considering that I can remember every single episode of the original series.
Another Farscape reference! Rich please consider re:view on that... not sure if any of the others have seen it though, the only other possibilities would be Jack and Josh and it doesn't seem like something Josh would watch...
Okay after rethinking maybe the Canadians might have seen it too. Anyway IIRC this is the third Rich reference for Farscape, the first one was in Mad Max 2 re:view and the second in some random prerec stream where it was said he sometimes puts old episodes of Farscape in the background at night
Yeah Peacekeeper Wars was definitely weaker than any of the seasons, but I'd say still solid. And way more than most of out-of-sudden cancelled scifi shows get, ie nothing.
Having the ability to turn agents and spies into other species and pose as someone is the greatest tactical advantage you can have. They can infiltrate and pose as captains, admirals, and leaders. And still have access to their memories. Even the Founders did not have an advantage that great. But this show just brushes over that. You would think that they would all be freaking out! Trying to see if anyone else had been compromised.
Pretty sure the Founders/Dominion had the tech to do that... as was established in the ...3rd or 4th ep w/ the dominion, where the Defiant goes into the delta quadrant to find the founders, is immediately captured, and the crew is hooked up to a computer that can read their minds completely and then runs them all through simulations to see how they'd react. Of course, like most of the more advanced Dominion tech/abilities (vorta esp powers, weapons/shields) this was quickly retconned/forgotten about when they realized they need the alpha quadrant to be able to fight back.
lamelama22 Having the tech to put people's brain into a simulation is hardly the same thing as giving a spy the complete knowledge, memories, and personality, of another individual they are impersonating. But yeah, I find it funny how the Dominion seemed extremely advanced early in the show but then got nerfed. Lol.
Kor threatens Kirk with a Klingon "Mind Scanner" at their very first meeting in TOS. That kind of tech is true to the Klingons of this era (but forgotten about by TNG). Discovery takes a lot of crap for "violating canon", but the opposite is actually true. They've done their homework, and it's usually the fans who are incorrect.
Rage In Eden No one said it wasn''t canon. Just that it seems a bit unlikely that one episode after discovering Tyler's origin they would have completely forgoten about it, and not followed up on it. However, the season was rewritten several times during filming. It shows unfortunately.
When you made that suggestion about Kirk becoming the captain of the Discovery for a few episodes it gave me the same feeling as I got when watching he final moments of the last Discovery episode, with the distress call and all that follows. My brain just went Oh no... because I have a strong fear that the hacks at CBS might think that this could “win over viewers if we just give them something familiar”.
*T'Pol:* Captain, new contacts dropping out of warp. They're hailing us. *Reed:* They look angry and they're armed to the teeth. *Sato:* Sir, I think they're citing death chants--- *Archer:* Belay that, Hoshi. Bring them on board. I want to meet them. Have Chef prepare them a meal.
How hard is it to just fucking get to what happens after The Enterprise E? How many spin-offs are we going to get before we get what we really want? The Enterprise F. Why do they keep going back to earlier times? We don't want that. We want to see what happens in the 25th century. We want to see if Picard actually made relations with the Romulans better after Nemesis. We want to see how the Cardassians have rebuilt. We want to see ethical struggles within the politics between the Federation/Klingon alliance. Just give us what we want. Discovery is just a side show. There was pretty much nothing of substance here for me. It was just a cash grab. Put the money down, get the writters you need and put us on the Enterprise F with an amazing cast. Dismissed.
KDR Gaming I can't rember where I read or heard this (maybe midnight's edge) but supposedly this series did not follow the route you want due to some rights issues which only allowed the series to be made in this mutated kelvin timeline
It's not in the Kelvin timeline, but it's being produced under Paramount's Kelvin timeline Star Trek license, not under CBS's prime universe license (I don't know why this is the case, but it is). This is why, for instance, the uniforms on Discovery follow the Kelvin timeline look of having little chevrons all over them. Visual effects have to follow the Kelvin timeline methodology so as not to violate the license. The whole thing is just stupid. No wonder Netflix is so pissed off at CBS right now. The whole reason they went to CBS was because they hold the rights to the prime universe, and that's where Netflix wanted their show set. Instead CBS did some legal maneuvering and kept the prime universe to themselves, and produced the show under Paramount's license. That's also why, despite all evidence to the contrary, the creators of Discovery keep claiming that the show takes place in the prime universe. The moment they stop saying that, they're admitting they lied to Netflix.
I realise this is not what you are looking for but the story continues through Star Trek Online, the MMORPG. The Enterprise-F in that game is the official Enterprise-F; the game deals with what happens in the aftermath of the Romulan homeworld being destroyed etc. Many actors who have been in TNG and VOY appear in the various story arcs. I'm sure none of the actual stories count as official, bona fide Star Trek history/canon, but they do a reasonably good job of mining the already established lore to develop new story/mission arcs, such as what's the story with those little bug-creatures we saw at the end of TNG season 1, or what happened to that Jem'Hadar fleet that disappeared when it was going through the wormhole in DS9 Season 6 etc. I don't know if you are into online gaming or not, but if you are, give it a look, it is free to play. I find it is surprisingly satisfying; it is now the way I most often enjoy Star Trek.
It would have been so great if Lorca became a better person after going to the prime universe and wanted to bring Federation values to the Terran Empire but he still wanted to enforce it in a mirror universe way.
Right? And I really thought that was what was happening. I mean, he really seemed to care about what happens to the defenseless inhabitants of Pahvo. Okay, after they destroyed the Ship of the Dead they just left them defenseless again but I thought that was just due to the under-written nature of Discovery scripts that we've come to expect. I mean, Lorca made this fucking speech about "making the Empire glorious again" and went on and on about how worthless aliens are. Dude, you served with Saru for months, you really think he is just a tasty treat? But okay, that speech was just there for the writers to make it look like they are making a point about today's politics. I am anything but a Trump supporter (heck, he isn't my president even, I'm not American) but Jesus, that was stupid.
I had really hoped that was where the story was headed. Then at least his whole character would have had a point. But no, he's just eeeeeeeeviiiiiilllll. Which doesn't even make sense as he was clearly showing more compassion in the Prime universe then he would have had to to maintain his cover. He even tells Saru in their last conversation that he grew to admire him and the rest of the crew, so apparently he did grow as a person while being in the Prime Universe. But then he didn't...
The best arc for Lorca would be if he had wanted to bring Federation (or rather, Federation-like) values to the Terran Empire all along. It would be great if he had the right intentions all along and he wanted to get the emperor to set up a peaceful earth. But, my version of Lorca is ruthless. His position is that the ends justify the means ("Universal law is for lackeys. Context is for kings."), so he's willing to do a lot of unethical things to achieve a good goal. So is he good or bad? That's the kind of moral conundrum that Star Trek thrives on. So of course the right answer will turn out to be that the ends don't justify the means, but the question should not be "blowing up a planet: justified or not?" but "killing this one asshole and whoever stands in my way to get to her: justified or not?"
“We have the most sophisticated technology ever invented in the universe” “NO! Lets headbutt each other instead” Concise description of Wakanda in Black Panther.
Christopher Sanna You mean Marvel in general? Asgardians have super advanced tech, let's make an hammer. Tony stark has invented infinite clean energy, let's hunt terrorists. Ant-Man has invented the tech to cure all illness, nah let's use it to chill with ants. Dr. Strange has access to interdimensional energy, let's make whips out of it. In other words, writers are often stupid.
I tried to rewatch it twice, both times I couldnt get past "Into the Forrest I go" where Mycool Burnhamn had the "fight" with the Klingorc dude, it was comedic gold
There wasn't much of a Klingon War past episode 2 ; they total number of seasons that directly relate to it are likely just a few minutes. Unless one count Kol as a representation of the war. But the show isn't at all interested in war. War is expensive. This show is written by people who used to write Gilmore Girls - that should be a strong indicator of tone here.
Yup. No needs for dumb retcons. No need for constant references to characters don't act like they did before. The tech level suddenly makes sense. The ship designs suddenly make sense. Set it post TNG, call the "Klingons" Tzenkethi or whatever name you want and all your problems are solved - and you don't have to change a single part of the story Discovery told.
I love how they look like they did this review after spending 20 minutes watching all the 'next week on Discovery' trails and had not seen the actual show.
the klingon scientists should be respected like the ork mekboyz in 40K. They're driven by innate need to innovate in the field of killing, inventing new tanks, aircraft, spaceships, and armaments in the name of advancing the prestige and power of their clan. There is also no reason a klingon scientist couldn't also be a warrior, a valued engineer aboard spacecraft and planet side.
The problem with Star Trek Discovery and JJ Star Trek is Michael Bay and his style of storytelling. JJ Abrams, Orci, Kurtzman, Goldsman. Look for the pattern: Armageddon (1998): Directed by Michael Bay, Screenplay by J. J. Abrams The Island (2005): Directed by Michael Bay, Screenplay by Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman The Legend of Zorro (2005): Story and Screenplay by Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman Mission: Impossible III (2006): Directed by J. J. Abrams, Written by J. J. Abrams, Roberto Orci, Alex Kurtzman Transformers (2007): Directed by Michael Bay, Story and Screenplay by Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (2009): Directed by Michael Bay, Written by Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman Star Trek (2009): Directed by J. J. Abrams, Written by Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman Cowboys & Aliens (2011): Screenplay by Roberto Orci, Alex Kurtzman and Damon Lindelof Prometheus (2012 film) Written by Damon Lindelof Star Trek Into Darkness (2013): Directed by J. J. Abrams, Written by Roberto Orci, Alex Kurtzman and Damon Lindelof The Amazing Spider-Man 2 (2014): Story and Screenplay by Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman Star Wars: The Force Awakens (2015) Directed and Written by J. J. Abrams Transformers: The Last Knight (2017): Directed by Michael Bay, Story by Akiva Goldsman Star Trek: Discovery (2017): Created by Alex Kurtzman, Executive producer Akiva Goldsman "The Vulcan Hello" Story by Alex Kurtzman, Teleplay by Akiva Goldsman Why is Star Trek (and Star Wars) in the hands of people who worked together with Michael Bay for decades and wrote some of his worst movies (Transformers, Armageddon, The Island)?
My guess is that Hollywood is all about circlejerking and all people that did worth something just fucked off to enjoy life and remove them selves from having to deal with this cancer.
I’ve never been so excited to watch people I’ve never met talk about a show I’ve never watched so I can learn things I’ll never tell anyone.
this
Yeah
me too thanks
Fuck man, that's me too, exactly.
Amen!
"How does it feel to live long enough to see all your favorite franchises go down in flames?"
Holy shit, that hurt so bad.
It's terrible. Star Trek, Star Wars, Jurassic Park, Alien, Terminator, Ghostbusters, DC Movies, and even some of the Marvel stuff now feel way too "ironic", cynical and nihilistic compared to the originals. It's like they are afraid of sincerity.
I've experienced it with The Elder Scrolls games, but I guess there is still a small ray of hope for those.
At this point, what's left to make sequels and prequels and re-boots and sea-boots and extended-cinematic-universe-franchises out of? Flash Gordon? Thundercats? Mr. Rogers v. Mr. Dressup? Eventually Hollywood will have to start coming up with some original franchise ideas before everything burns out. However they'll probably just start hard-sea-booting the soft reboots and making prequels for the sequels and making alternate-timeline-extended-universes out of gritty re-imaginings of Cheers or WKRP in Cincinnati.
As long as they don't do something supremely sacrilegious and make a re-fuckulation of Groundhog Day I'll be alright. If that went down in flames thanks to J.J. Abrams or Brett Ratner that would be the proverbial straw that breaks the back of my nostalgia...
Timm Robocop, Total Recall, Halloween, Evil Dead, Indy, Lord of the Rings is becoming a tv show, and I think I heard that they are doing Starship Troopers too which will no doubt loose all of the satire. 😝 getting old sucks
It's okay. I just pretend these never happened. Or more precisely I don't pretend, I just don't care. Star Wars is an old flawed but beloved trilogy and so on... It is called growing up. These things are becoming the new antique themes, you know, or the new operas: anybody can take a stab at the Ring of the Nibelungen, sometimes it is good, sometimes it is bad, sometimes it is flawed but interesting, and nobody cares about continuity as long as what you are watching is good. Sure nowadays these things are copyrighted to the end of times but then you can take alternative routes like what they did with the Orville.
"Star Trek used to be a set of ideals, but now Star Trek is names you know, and places you know, where people can shoot at each other in the places." Rich Evans
Truer words have never been spoken.
A franchise being pillaged for no other goal than profit.
Not entirely unlike another rather popular sci fi franchise.....
Ah yes the avatar saga I cant wait for 2-6
Star Trek used to be a set of ideals,
Secular Religion
If only Star Trek had been able to become public domain at least the fans could've taken over instead of corporations cutting it up into pieces & squeezing it for profit
You mean Battlefield Earth?
@@TheEmbessyNetwork
The opening dialogue with Kirk/Picard is a sermon.
The darkness of DS9 was a response to how cleanly TNG resolved a lot of very complex situations.
For example, the Enterprise would get two conflicting sides to sign a peace treaty and fly off. DS9 showed how problems aren't solved that easily. A treaty doesn't make decades of distrust and war disappear. Someone has to stay and deal with the nitty gritty. Someone has to rebuild the society after the war. Someone has to make sure that the treaty is enforced after the diplomats have left. Someone has to keep the peace if one side decided to circumvent or break the treaty. Picard lays the foundation for peace, but Sisko stays and roll up his sleeves to rebuild the civilization.
And DS9 never contradicted the message of TNG. DS9 never said that we shouldn't work together or try to resolve conflicts through diplomacy. The darkness in DS9 was to emphasize just how important TNG's ideals of cooperation, diplomacy, and peace are. The whole point of episodes like "Siege of AR-558" is to show how horrific war is and why we have to do everything we can to avoid it.
Discovery and Picard have the darkness of DS9 but not the depth. They want to exist in the more complex and gritty world of DS9 but they still resolved problems as easily as TNG, without doing any of the extra work of DS9.
This is extremely accurate and poignant to why the people behind the scenes of the new shows don't understand Star Trek. They can claim all they want that these new shows will portray different sides of the Federation, or they'll give us in depth character drama, or they'll explore new themes and ideals, but they aren't willing to put in the work to reach all of those pay-offs in a satisfying way. They expect us to already know and relate to the characters right off the bat, without giving us room to understand them genuinely and see what makes them who they are. Every single Star Trek show before this had episodes just dedicated to what each respective crew member enjoyed doing, or how they did their job, or whatever, as well as the super suspenseful conflict episodes where we saw how each character reacted in a stressful situation; there were episodes where each character had a chance to shine in terms of seeing how they do their jobs, or seeing how they make it out of a tense situation, or, in the case of Data, literally seeing what their day looks like from start to end. Those were the episodes that defined the characters, and classic Trek writers were smart enough to keep those episodes far away from the huge, impactful, overarching stories. They did so because to properly establish character in an ensemble, longform, standalone episode-type show, you have to give time to how each character explores their personalities on screen.
Here's an example-- there's an episode of DS9 entirely dedicated to Sisko building and flying an ancient Bajoran solar-sailer, and that's it. He builds it, there's some initial resistance from the Cardassian Govt. about the process, eventually Jake joins in, and they just fly it and talk. Of course some other things happen, they realize how a solar-sailer got so far from Bajor and eventually the Cardassians show up to bafflingly congratulate them, but that's the episode. It's not great, it's very slow and the ending feels a little tacked on, but it's fantastic in terms of understanding what Ben Sisko and Jake Sisko are passionate about, how they talk to each other, what each of them wants out of life, etc. It really helps impart the strong bond they have, without the need for senseless action, a melodramatic climax, or yelling, because they didn't need it. A random yet simple story about a father and his son on a boat, sailing through the galaxy and talking is somehow more emotional and interesting than all the space action of Discovery and Picard combined. Now, on the complete other side of that, is the episode "For the Uniform", also from DS9. This is a fantastic one, in contrasting the ideals of Michael Eddington and Ben Sisko. Sisko is pissed, he tries catching Eddington the Starfleet way, but it fails after a starship and a planet get fucked over pretty bad. Out of ideas, Sisko plays by Eddington's rules, making himself out to be the "Javert" to Eddington's "Jean Valjean", and ultimately forcing Eddington to turn himself in. It's a fantastic episode to see how the ideals of the Federation, and Sisko himself, were tested; Sisko was left with little else to do, not by much more urgency than was present before, but simply by the fact that he had his chance to catch a traitor. Would this episode have been as effective on its own, without episodes like the solar-sailer episode?? Maybe, but I think the slower episodes create more stakes and character drama when they're there. They give us something to call back to, something we know the characters truly care about because we saw it. If the characters fail at their mission, they put those things they care about in jeopardy; if Sisko didn't catch Eddington, who knows what would've happened to Jake, or Cassidy, or his crew, or the space station, or Bajor, or any one of the things we see him so passionately fight for in every episode of the show.
Modern Trek doesn't understand this. I can't imagine an episode of Discovery just dedicated to Michael Burnham or Tilly or Stametz just going about their day, or having to figure out an engineering problem, or how to properly make a souffle or something. Just anything that isn't so mind-meltingly over the top and grandiose every episode. Not to say an episode doesn't have to have stakes to be a good character exploration, but these new shows have no brake pedal, in terms of just taking a slower approach to storytelling. They don't want to show you the things the characters care about because, to them, that's time wasted. You can't have modern Trek without a space battle, or yelling, or sweeping orchestra. It's soap opera. They just slam their feet on the gas as hard as they can, and expect you to read all the billboards of the story along the way and understand why these characters act this way. It's lazy writing is what it is and it upsets me to no end.
@@themastermindwithahat607 True, the only episode of Discovery that I like at all was the time-loop episode where Stamz teaching Burham about romance and dancing. The only time we actually get to learn the context with which each of them sees the world. The rest of the time it is just people doing stuff for "reasons".
@@agilemind6241 I agree 100%, and honestly that episode really did help me understand who Stametz and Burnham were as people; I understood Burnham's apprehensive nature and Stametz's passion for what true romance is. It was such a small step in the right direction but it was a step nonetheless. It sucks cuz I can see where Discovery can be interesting, where there's something all of these actors are trying to convey through their characters, but whether it's the writing or the directing or what, it just isn't coming across.
Everything you wrote is true. I would also like to add though that DS9 was what happened in the Star Trek universe on an outpost far from the core of the Federation. The season 2 two parter on the Maquis summed it up when Sisko rants about how perfect Earth is and how it’s just not like that on the boundary of the Federation.
That’s why DS9 isn’t inconsistent with TNG. Everyone strives for the same values and ideals. Sometimes it’s just not possible to be that clean.
Plus the Defiant is badass. Me me not smart and like fast cool ship
The Klingons utilized the Emperor Palpatine Reconstructive Surgery Center.
Joshua Resnick and slathered him up with somma dat WOODOO HYDE!!
Joshua Resnick Your a wizard, Joshua!
Boy did you predict the damn future...
Klingon and human DNA = not compatible.
D Jackson what about B’Elanna Torres? She’s half human half Klingon.
"Hello Rich Evans."
"Hello Michael."
I don't feel right anymore.
Its the mirror universe Michael. He too hates Star Trek discovery.
Mike should have called Rich Dick The Birthday Boy to set everything right with the universe.
I thought his name was "Redlettermedia" or something
There's an audio commentary track where Jay calls Rich "Richard... Evans", with a pause to indicate that he felt weird about accidentally doing that.
They should do an episode of something where they call each other "Jacob, Richard and Michael" the whole time.
All that's missing is Jay sitting between you two and making his awsome Star Trek face while he stares at the camera for 40 minutes.
j k17 member that one episode when Rich was just eating pizza the whole time
@@ELEKTROSKANSEN No
Jay is there...he is just so still throughout the whole thing he became invisible, like Drax the Destroyer.
I don’t even watch Star Trek but I need my 40 minutes of a friend simulator.
why?
'cause it works...
this is the good stuff
That is apt as fuck.
Instant adoring Rich & Mike
The mirror universe is traditionally used to show character traits exaggerated or flipped, that doesn't work when you barely know the character, doing a giant mirror universe plot in the 1st season of such a short run of episodes makes no sense, it just feels like pandering fan fiction.
Ben Eklom The whole show feels like pandering fanfiction.
I would love to say that "Mirror, Mirror" was a first season episode, but I think that type of humor would go above everyone's head. It makes me feel sad. )o:Þ
I absolutely detested Mirror Kira in DS9. 50% sleaze, 50% cheese.
@@r0bw00d, But it is a 2nd season episode? What is the joke?
@@LikaLaruku Mirror Kira was terrible, but the role reversal for the humans characters was good, and as well as the way it gave the Prime characters a new perspective on each other and themselves. That is usually the best way to use alternate universes in Sci-Fi.
About the only good thing about this series I can think is being able to harness the power of Gene Roddenberry spinning in his grave for perpetual energy.
AnimeChuck Hoover Dam...
Wasn't he cremented and shot into space?
@@magic8340 that was James Doohan I think.
Considering Gene Roddenberry was one of the reasons why Season 1 TNG was so awful... well he would still dislike Discovery, but for different reasons.
Theres a dresden codak comic for that
"War Am Bad"
-Rich Evans, 2K18
" " - Rich Evans in near future
Such an inspiring message of peace and hope from one of our generation's brightest thinkers.
Rich Evans is the one true prophet.
Rich Evans for president 2020
thewhatness Only Rich Evans can bring peace to the world if he said that to the United Nations.
"How does it feel to have lived long enough to see all of your favorite franchises go down in flames?" - Rich Evans
And now we have Star Trek: Dark Star making Red Dwarf look like serious and deep science fiction.
Please, Don’t even try to compare the science fiction and comedic masterpiece that is Red Dwarf to this new upcoming steaming pile of horseshit, especially not in the same sentence
Feels Good Man,.
Neither Star Trek, or Star Wars, will ever achieve the level of Red Dwarf. They won't even try, because they know it's impossible.
Lister: "Kryten, it's 7:00 in the morning, don't start with that Star Trek crap." I'm paraphrasing, I forgot the exact words.
The fucking curry monster
Smegheads
”whales needed to talk to a space sausage"
I am deceased
I have never seen a single episode of STD, but I have seen all RLM STD reviews.
I couldn't get through the first season. It's so fucking hard to watch. They give it way more credit than it deserves.
"Chlamydia. Not a fan."
Mike acting like a child dropped off at daycare actually melted my heart.
I could listen to Mike and Rich talk about old TNG episodes all day.
You got your wish
Ahh I was going to say the same :/)
"How does it feel to have lived long enough to see all your favourite franchises go down in flames?"
Damn Rich, that's so on the nose.
Your favourite franchises either die a hero, or live long enough to see themselves become the villain...
Is Michael Stoklasa the mirror version of Mike Stoklasa?
Aaron Thomas The mirror version of Rich Evans doesn't have Diabetes.
"Star Wars The Phantom Menace is the greatest thing since my son. It's so dense. Every single scene has so much going on... and like my son, who eventually came to be ceo of a successful and popular chain of gas stations, the best part is that it'll be remembered forever..."
*shudder*
Rich has diabetes across all conceivable realities and planes of existence.
wolfiethebumpireslyr just type 1 vs. type 2
JohnnyZenith The mirror version of Rich Evans is secretly Jay Bauman. Life has not been kind to Rich in this universe.
40:20 - "How does it feel to have lived long enough to see all of your favorite franchises go down in flames?" -- Rich Evans, Feb 20, 2018
30:48 why are their predictions always right
Because of Positive Confirmation Bias. Let's list all the times they were incorrect: >
You just had to be that guy lol
Oh muh gawd. Its the creator of Autism Cat commenting on another one of my favorite creators! What a day. lol
WHY ARE YOU OBSESSED WITH SKYRIM
Wow wee
DS9 had a great mix of arc(s), one-offs, action and the drama of big questions.
I hated the whole "prophet" religious Bajoran thing, but it was a good show.
DS9 was subversive crap. DS9 is why Enterprise, Discovery, Picard were made and are so bad.
@@GeorgeMonet you do realize you are talking about star trek right? The show created by an actual communist for the purpose of subverting cultural norms?
Star trek is just doing what it was always meant to do. Only now they have worse righters and are more open with their agenda.
@@nameredacted7622 Gene Went Commy'ish when he reached his foggy days of old age and drugs. And even then his fundamental beliefs when he chipped in on the show were more steeped in humanitarianism than communism. Even then his influence of TNG diminished as the show went on and by a pretty decent amount even before Season 1 was over. Whenever I see idiots calling the show out for being commy shit it's usually in the first season where they went through writers faster than red shirts on foreign planets and Gene thought people should be openly fucking in the background of Riza scenes on open broadcast Television.
"Subverting cultural norms" as far as anything except Discorvery/Picard is actual smooth brain theory shit though. The kinda shit that you have to read on a forum with a small hand full of examples that only exist because of college level writers who likely didn't make it a fortnight in that position and Gene's dementia. If you want to finely detail how a civilization could reach an age without crime of greed without pissing some overly political sperg off due to the nature of reaching said state then be my guest.
@@GeorgeMonet Money and a general lack of concern for the original property is why Discovery and Picard were shit. Enterprise was also shit but at least commendable for attempting to not be shit for its fanbase. THough this is in comparison to STD so it's not saying much. DS9 was rocky and ultimately brought in the less than subtle soap opera days of Star Trek but still had the best (and possibly the worst) episodes of the franchise and there are certain things about it that were good such as the Characters, Character arks, Universe building, philosophical and political waxing ect.
"Michael"
Jesus, that sounded weird.
Nah dude, that’s not Michael... that’s Mike.
Oi! Watchit! 😊
I immediately went to the comments to see if anyone wrote about this too. Good catch Jack.
Who's Michael. I don't like things that are different.
it's not michael, rich clearly said "Hello, my gall"
I've been looking forward to their review of Star Trak: The Last Jedi
It'll be tame as fuck, The mouse has a long reach.
*Solar Battles Chapter Eight: The Miserable Monk*
It must trigger people to no end that they seem to like the new Star Trek. Obviously we must all hate it and the Last Jedi...
Not really.
They have done one
"How's it feel to be old enough to watch all your favorite franchises, go down in flames?" ~Rich Evans, 2018
(...thanks for the reminder Rich.)
Would Rich and Mike have been happier if the "War Am Bad" message was instead a cut to black with the following message: "Only through the elimination of violence can we achieve world peace."?
Cheers to you, Mr. Evans, for your mention of Farscape.
That series needs more love.
This reminds me of that one episode of Star Trek
The one where they all sat down and talked whilst archive clips played as flashbacks?
Alan Kelly I'm pretty sure that's the actual plot of The Menagerie
+Monsieur Condottiero Yep. That's the one I was alluding to. Heehee. :)
Is Mike wearing Vulcan ear prosthetics? Are his ears just shaped like that? How have I not noticed this before?
Alina Hubbard-Riley He has Vulcan ears
I noticed that too
They say he had his ears "stapled down" especially for this episode.
@@mealwheels3562 wtf is wrong with you
Tristan Bean my butthole isn’t big enough, that’s what!
@@stardude2006 Mike just is from Vulcan.
I love how Rich laughs at his own jokes while Mike just stares sullenly at him.
Hearing someone mention Farscape always makes me smile. Bless. 🙏
*War am Bad™*
Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds
thats not abad
What line
*What are Next?™*
*I am come detH, teh stroya of words.*
Star trek used to be a set of ideas now it is just things on a set :)!
Mike, I just realized you have elf ears
Vulcan*
Leland Booher He is Spock’s half sister.
Vulcan ears, you troglodyte .
I would love to have youse two do proper Re:Views of the old series, like TOS, TNG and Deep Space 9. We get bits and pieces of references, but it would be nice to have a coherent presentation of what you think of em.
They do not understand TOS.
There’s nothing sexier than a confused, bemused, and quietly miserably Ricardo Evans
I imagined your comment being spoken by Rich in the Don Wilson voice as I read it.
Oh nice Rich likes Farscape, that series is so underrated.
Yes the story was great they made a good tv show even if the special effet was very low budget
@@davidchicoine6949 the cgi has not aged terribly. compared to some other things. and the fucking puppets practical effects like that NEVER lose value.
The thing is even when it was airing they knew it was cgi so they never tried to photo realistic it.
farscape was the shit, i even really liked when the guys from farscape were main characters in stargate-SG1. both shows were great...its too bad neither one got a real ending (atleast farscape got like a web series thing)
@@sagejosh Farscape had a movie called the Peacekeeper Wars. They wrap things up there.
TNG, Farscape, and Quantum Leap are my three favorite sci-fi shows of all time.
"This science has no honor!" - Klingons probably
Klingons only got into advanced tech because they somehow managed to beat a more advanced race that invaded their planet a long time ago, then took their ships and shit
wait, were all those barrels in the cargo bay filled with liquid honor???
So gain of function research, fast tracked vaccines and environmental sciences would be anathema to the honourable Klingon scientists lol
When the new Star Trek makes Battlestar Galactica seem calm and collected.
Maybe they could get a drunk Saul Tigh as the next Captain and accidentally blow up some planets.
+Ian Phoenix-"Funny" enough but unsurprising given how popular both series are, the creator of the Battlestar Galactica (remake) is Ronald D. Moore, one of the most well known Star Trek writers and often one of my favorites. He clearly loved Star Trek, cared about it, and knew instinctively and cared about the details (he did help flesh out the Klingons quite a bit in TNG), to where it's very sad he hasn't been involved with anything past a few episodes of Voyager after Deep Space Nine ended (although it's also clear Brannon Braga, who he considered a close friend at the time, screwed him over and while he never gave the full details, Braga and Rick at least shut him out from involvement with the other writers and even changed meeting rooms on him to where he would be led to an empty room.) He has obviously down well for himself after Star Trek and a lot of that probably has to do with his enormous talent and his love for any series he is doing. Someone like Ronald D. Moore needed to be involved with a current or future Star Trek series, not these transparent studio hacks, but even someone as well loved as Bryan Fuller (who did a few Voyager episodes I really love) knew pretty quickly that he had to get the hell out of dodge as fast as he could.
FRACK YOU!
Not happening
"No, please, don't leave me here. There's garbage everywhere"
Now I really want an episode where theyre visiting a Klingon city and they take a wrong turn and open a door revealing bland office cubicles with well groomed klingons going about their business. Then one of them just quietly comes over and shuts the door.
Mike: Hey Jay. You want to do a re:view of Star Trek Discovery with me?
Jay: Nope!
FutureCloud fucking Susan.
"It's a lot to wrap your brain around because there's lots of little things going on."
Mike are you saying it's so dense?
Michael Burnham is the key to all of this. If we can get Michael Burnham working.
Michael is the funniest character we've ever done before.
@@iiiiiifggffggffgfgfg she is stylistically designed to be that way
I don't care about STD. Mike, do a weekly video about your DS9 re-watch.
Jarren Butterworth Yus
I’d up my patreon donation if he did more trek reviews.
DS9 is so much better than people give it credit for. Just ignore the last season...
In terms of the Klingons being dumb as rocks (you're totally right), I always dug how Mass Effect approached the issue. Their Klingon substitute, the Krogans, are also warlike and can't get over tribal differences, to the point of nearly nuking each other into the stone age. But when it came time to fight a bigger, badder threat, the Rachni (big space cockroaches), a SEPARATE hyper-intelligent species, the Salarians, came down and more or less gave them space tech, ships and weapons, etc. in order to get them to help with the bug problem.
The Rachni get wiped out and then you have a weird, uncomfortable situation where now there's just a bunch of Conan the Barbarians with warp drives and WMDs dicking around the galaxy. Not only that, but they reproduce super fucking fast, to the point where those same Salarians "secretly" introduce a virus into the population that makes all but like 5% of them sterile. They get found out, and that's essentially where the games start their story, where it's giant fucking point of tension throughout the main plot.
That trilogy of games ended on some iffy notes, but I always liked the added depth they gave to the traditional Klingon dynamic, beyond "we like war, but you like talking and stuff," as well as addressing how a race like that got into space in the first place, if they hate science so damn much.
If by "iffy notes" you mean it crashed like the fucking Hindenburg then I agree.
With the Krogan they didn't totally distain science on a whole,they highly valued Krogan scientists who studied guns,warfare,weaponsmiths,armour,ships and the genophage obviously.
I think the Krogan are just selective over which field of science is more valuable to them.I think the Klingons would be the same tbh.
Irrespective of trilogy’s overall ending, I thought the conclusion to the Krogan/Salarian subplot was one of the high points of the entire series.
@@zippa93 Can't argue with that.
@@izzeypally That means they still have to reverse engineer the tech though. While that may certainly be easier than starting from scratch, for a warrior race like the klingons, it may as well be fruitless.
In a galaxy where civilizations span multiple planets, war involves about 1,000 people. That's not a war, that's a battle. 10 ships fighting each other isn't a war. 200 people dying isn't a war.
AXANAR! D-7 bombing the shit out of a planet!
it's more of a skirmish
Yeah there's a complete disconnect between what they claim the stakes are and what we see, there's one point where they say like 3 trillion lives are on the line but somehow a single ship is swinging a war of that scale, even if the thing can teleport where ever shouldn't it be encountering fleets of ships that instantly fuxk it up anyway.
Yeah the episode the siege of AR 558 made a mockery of the whole conflict. I get budget limitations but they could have implied at least a supposedly pivotal battle in the conflict meant to show the horrors of war consisted of more than 200 people.
The fact they kept referring back to it as important when people would never refer to a minor skirmish during WW2 as such when one is at galactic scale and the other national really ruined my suspension of disbelief and stakes
So just a pet theory of mine but I think that Mike is actually a Mirror Universe version of himself, replaced after the release of half in the bag episode 4.
I really enjoyed the Battlestar Galactica reboot. Not sure why Orcs were in BSG though.
Give it another 10 years, rewatch it - its literally propaganda I'm afraid :/
SHINYREDBULLETS How so? I remember some pretty ham-fisted spiritual message at the end, but the first few seasons were pretty good imo.
SHINYREDBULLETS propaganda from what?
You have won sir. Hands down the best comment.
Excellent! 😅😅
I would love to see Mike's review of DS9 since he's watching it again.
40:21
40:26
04:20
Side note: Admiral Cornwell's actress is married to John Terlesky; the actor who played Deathstalker in Deathstalker Too.
neat
Great B movie
Spoilers for the recently released Discovery novels if anyone cares
Yes, the good Lorca survived the destruction of the Buran and is still in the Mirror Universe
Now, whether or not they confine the good Lorca to the books or this is meant as a hint to where the show is going in Season 2 is anyone's guess
Michael Metzler
loo. noone cares.
and i think less of you for telling me about this.
i spit in your general direction!
I hate that there are books of this trash as well. It cements in the awful is going to stay.
The thing with commander Landry is this: She is mean in both universes. But she smiles more in the mirror universe, because that's where she fits in. So that's not an oversight, that's ingenious.
Rich's last comment could not have hit me in right in the feels more. "How does it feel to see all your favourite franchises go down in flames?"
TOS and TNG were about describing a positive future for humanity. At some episodes that positive future was being tested (e.g. "The Wounded"). At DS9 the producers asked themselves; What if we take episodes like "The Wounded" and turn them into seasons long arcs. The result was that while TOS and TNG described the positive future, DS9, asked a philosophical question; "How do we defend that positive future, while remaining true to our ideals?". Exactly because DS9 asked a philosophical question ("How do I defend my ideals without becoming what I am fighting?") DS9 was 100% Trek. Darker? Yes. More realistic? Perhaps/Depending your perspective. Instead, STD is the series' equivalent of an Internet "edge-lord". It was "dark" for the sake of it. It was gore even. It wanted to shock for the sake of shocking. DS9 was nothing like that.
You have absolutely nailed it.
How the hell could you predict so accurately how Hugh Culber is brought back? Stunning.
So many predictions right, does Kurtzman watch these videos?
I wish star trek discovery had been about trekking and/or discovery
Jonas David When I first saw the title I was thinking Star Trek and Discovery Chanel partnership
@@ThreadBomb TNG was largely diplomatic, but Voyager had tons of exploration, as the TOS. DS9 had some exploration, but they were mostly not very memorable one-off episodes, whereas the big memorable arcs were all diplomatic/political.
@@ThreadBomb Original had a shit ton of exploration
This is the most terrible thing to happen to Star Trek since the last most terrible thing to happen to Star Trek.
Jar Jar Abrams, the worst thing to happen to movies, or TV series.
Boo Machine he does seem to have the anti midas touch.
Liverpiggy To complete the trifecta of Star Trek death... you should probably add in Robert Orci, and Alex Kurtzman onto that hack fraud list.
What I like about Starwarville Discovery is... that it's about family
Very cool... very cool
And that's what's so powerful about it.
I love it when Mike and Rich reference older series like DS9. I almost always know what episodes they're going to mention just before they say them. I too thought of the Klingon scientist in TNG (Suspicions s6e22), but also the comment Martok made in DS9 (A Time to Stand s6e1) when he tells Sisko "Klingons make great warriors, but terrible doctors". Also Clint Howard plays a crazy guy in DS9 (Past Tense - Part 2 s3e12).
Went back to Netflix to watch the rest of the season, which I forgot about, just to fully enjoy this review - meta entertainment everyone - we live in a time where reviews are more entertaining than the shows themselves 😁
I really appreciate the Star Trek reviews Mike and Rich have such a great time and the way they reference episodes for privious series off the top of their heads. Cool to see other hard core fans like me. Thanks RLM
I found Michael Burnham to be completely unlikable throughout the series.
When she said "I'm here to save you", all I was thinking was girl did you not learn a thing while on the ship for 7 years?
For some reason I never thought Mike's real name was Michael
It may not be... WHERE'S THE BIRTH CERTIFICATE?!?!
"He who is like God" indeed.
I've watched this whole Discovery series so far so many times without having even put any outside effort or attention into Discovery itself, and I feel the better man for it.
So, a character whose main trait is their adherence to logic should not have stylized hair. This is an inefficient use of time as it serves no logical purpose.
Producers: "But how else can we portray her as a strong, independent, black woman??"
You must not know many intelligent woman. They still spend time on their looks.
@@GeorgeMonet Funny that you jumped right to 'women' when I said 'character'. I'm saying that any character, who values logic above all else, would, logically, see the endeavor of stylizing their hair as an illogical social ritual and abstain. They would maintain a very neat, professional hairstyle, much like the original Spock's Bowl cut. I also said nothing of intellect. Only that if they wished to be defined by their logic, they should act logical.
A good writer may integrate that into the character. Have another character comment on the way she stylizes her hair yet proclaims to be solely logical and it demonstrates how she isn't really.
However, this is Discovery. So DARKNESS AND EXPLOSIONS.
@@TerranGuy93 Yeah, quirks are great. The purely logical being that picked a particular style because they found it to elicit the most desirable responses is creating depth and building on an established characteristic. Having them use their unique style as a way of showing their emotional growth away from pure logic is also great. But having a shallow set of contradictory traits makes the character look ill conceived and poorly developed.
Only star trek would get 3 consecutive re:views from Mike.
Best re:view, watched it twice already
David AdFOLPAD video came out 25 minutes ago nigga
David AdFOLPAD ive already watched it 4 times.
Yeah. I agree with Mike. All the fan-wanking is getting played out. I'm pretty sick of remakes, reboots, and reboots of remakes.
It's worse than that, it's fan wanking while violating the originals with a spiky stick.
And yes, they need to end. They don't make good movies out of it, anime does though, which is strange.
Animes are usually one shot seasons of the manga arcs with some follow ups again based on following written arcs.
I also wish they'd do new original stuff. Star Wars and Star Trek are done. As a fan you want more but precisely that's the reason you should not get any more. JRR Tolkien started to write a sequel to LOTR but he was smart enough to scrap it when he realized there is nothing more to tell as the LOTR story was done.
Some new space opera like Star Trek but with new ideas and visions in a new galaxy setting would be nice.
remooks
'mangalores-x_x , in many cases it's usually better to do tangentially related things, rather than some absurd follow-ups, that's what I like about several anime "remakes". Films usually take about 2 hours each.
The best anime remakes are things like Gatchaman Crowds, or Casshern Sins, they took just a concept or 2 made what they wanted with it, not creatively bound by dead flesh that should be left dead. Instead of making it more sanitised and pointless, with the largest possible appeal, both were made more original than you generally see and more creative(Hell, Kyashan went from a kids show with some heavy drama to a contemplative post-apocalyptic masterpiece)
Boo Machine Casshern wasn't my thing but I think you're right about how to make franchised content.
Watching these reviews in chronological order and slowly but surely you see Mike's last shred of hope wither away.
lol. More of you two. Love the chemistry, insight and humor.
I don't even watch Discovery, I just love hearing you two frauds talk
@Dazer12 You are new here? :D
Is that a thing that Mike and Rich are "frauds"? Also new here.
To everyone confused about the fraud comment, you're all a bunch of hack frauds!
And yeah, the gang calling people hacks, particularly Adam Sandler, is just a running "joke" of theirs.
VERY cool.
So It Goes ... You know it's bad when you gone as far back as you could to watch everything of theirs and now you miss having tons of episodes to binge.
After watching the first episode, I never watched it again. Do not regret it.
In the past, this would've been straight to the Best Buy $5 DVD bin.
+Whoopie Moopie?-There is a small consolation in that this series is buried underneath a paid service: CBS All Access, that you have to pay a decent amount of money for. It's easily far more avoidable and easy to miss if you don't want to find it, especially given that a lot of fans are unsurprisingly and understandably very pissed off. The word of mouth either for Discovery or CBS All Access hasn't been good as far as I can, CBS All Access doesn't command the same attention or reputation as either Netflix, Hulu, or even HBO Now. HBO Now offers a lot of bang for its buck and you get access to a huge amount of HBO's library, both old and new. CBS All Access offers a very paltry and limited library. Discovery was supposed to be a launch title to catapult this streaming service, and I don't think it was able to do it the way CBS/Paramount wanted it to. I would be far from surprised if this streaming service is either downsized further from what it currently is or they will quietly scrub it.
They have to change the Enterprise design by a certain amount due to the complicated license agreement they have apparently.
I watched the series as it was coming out, and I thought I liked it enough as I was watching it. However, now that some time has passed, I can't remember anything about it. That speaks volumes about the show considering that I can remember every single episode of the original series.
Another Farscape reference! Rich please consider re:view on that... not sure if any of the others have seen it though, the only other possibilities would be Jack and Josh and it doesn't seem like something Josh would watch...
SonnyViceR Farscape I remember it well
Okay after rethinking maybe the Canadians might have seen it too. Anyway IIRC this is the third Rich reference for Farscape, the first one was in Mad Max 2 re:view and the second in some random prerec stream where it was said he sometimes puts old episodes of Farscape in the background at night
I really wish Farscape had another season instead of a movie to wrap things up...
Yeah Peacekeeper Wars was definitely weaker than any of the seasons, but I'd say still solid. And way more than most of out-of-sudden cancelled scifi shows get, ie nothing.
Oh I agree, definitelly better than no ending at all like Stargate Atlantis and Universe.
Congrats on hitting 700,000 subscribers! I know you guys REALLY care.
Turney Foshee No problem.
Having the ability to turn agents and spies into other species and pose as someone is the greatest tactical advantage you can have. They can infiltrate and pose as captains, admirals, and leaders. And still have access to their memories. Even the Founders did not have an advantage that great. But this show just brushes over that. You would think that they would all be freaking out! Trying to see if anyone else had been compromised.
Pretty sure the Founders/Dominion had the tech to do that... as was established in the ...3rd or 4th ep w/ the dominion, where the Defiant goes into the delta quadrant to find the founders, is immediately captured, and the crew is hooked up to a computer that can read their minds completely and then runs them all through simulations to see how they'd react. Of course, like most of the more advanced Dominion tech/abilities (vorta esp powers, weapons/shields) this was quickly retconned/forgotten about when they realized they need the alpha quadrant to be able to fight back.
lamelama22 Having the tech to put people's brain into a simulation is hardly the same thing as giving a spy the complete knowledge, memories, and personality, of another individual they are impersonating.
But yeah, I find it funny how the Dominion seemed extremely advanced early in the show but then got nerfed. Lol.
Kor threatens Kirk with a Klingon "Mind Scanner" at their very first meeting in TOS. That kind of tech is true to the Klingons of this era (but forgotten about by TNG). Discovery takes a lot of crap for "violating canon", but the opposite is actually true. They've done their homework, and it's usually the fans who are incorrect.
Rage In Eden No one said it wasn''t canon. Just that it seems a bit unlikely that one episode after discovering Tyler's origin they would have completely forgoten about it, and not followed up on it. However, the season was rewritten several times during filming. It shows unfortunately.
There was lots of tech like that in TOS, though. Remember when a woman changed minds with Kirk and took over the ship?
When you made that suggestion about Kirk becoming the captain of the Discovery for a few episodes it gave me the same feeling as I got when watching he final moments of the last Discovery episode, with the distress call and all that follows. My brain just went Oh no... because I have a strong fear that the hacks at CBS might think that this could “win over viewers if we just give them something familiar”.
*T'Pol:* Captain, new contacts dropping out of warp. They're hailing us.
*Reed:* They look angry and they're armed to the teeth.
*Sato:* Sir, I think they're citing death chants---
*Archer:* Belay that, Hoshi. Bring them on board. I want to meet them. Have Chef prepare them a meal.
How hard is it to just fucking get to what happens after The Enterprise E? How many spin-offs are we going to get before we get what we really want? The Enterprise F. Why do they keep going back to earlier times? We don't want that. We want to see what happens in the 25th century. We want to see if Picard actually made relations with the Romulans better after Nemesis. We want to see how the Cardassians have rebuilt. We want to see ethical struggles within the politics between the Federation/Klingon alliance. Just give us what we want. Discovery is just a side show. There was pretty much nothing of substance here for me. It was just a cash grab. Put the money down, get the writters you need and put us on the Enterprise F with an amazing cast. Dismissed.
KDR Gaming I can't rember where I read or heard this (maybe midnight's edge) but supposedly this series did not follow the route you want due to some rights issues which only allowed the series to be made in this mutated kelvin timeline
That would require the writers their hiring to use their brains.
Braxant the show is not in the kelvin time. Also, Romulus is destroyed in the prime timeline after its star went super nova
It's not in the Kelvin timeline, but it's being produced under Paramount's Kelvin timeline Star Trek license, not under CBS's prime universe license (I don't know why this is the case, but it is). This is why, for instance, the uniforms on Discovery follow the Kelvin timeline look of having little chevrons all over them. Visual effects have to follow the Kelvin timeline methodology so as not to violate the license.
The whole thing is just stupid. No wonder Netflix is so pissed off at CBS right now. The whole reason they went to CBS was because they hold the rights to the prime universe, and that's where Netflix wanted their show set. Instead CBS did some legal maneuvering and kept the prime universe to themselves, and produced the show under Paramount's license. That's also why, despite all evidence to the contrary, the creators of Discovery keep claiming that the show takes place in the prime universe. The moment they stop saying that, they're admitting they lied to Netflix.
I realise this is not what you are looking for but the story continues through Star Trek Online, the MMORPG. The Enterprise-F in that game is the official Enterprise-F; the game deals with what happens in the aftermath of the Romulan homeworld being destroyed etc. Many actors who have been in TNG and VOY appear in the various story arcs. I'm sure none of the actual stories count as official, bona fide Star Trek history/canon, but they do a reasonably good job of mining the already established lore to develop new story/mission arcs, such as what's the story with those little bug-creatures we saw at the end of TNG season 1, or what happened to that Jem'Hadar fleet that disappeared when it was going through the wormhole in DS9 Season 6 etc.
I don't know if you are into online gaming or not, but if you are, give it a look, it is free to play. I find it is surprisingly satisfying; it is now the way I most often enjoy Star Trek.
It would have been so great if Lorca became a better person after going to the prime universe and wanted to bring Federation values to the Terran Empire but he still wanted to enforce it in a mirror universe way.
Right? And I really thought that was what was happening. I mean, he really seemed to care about what happens to the defenseless inhabitants of Pahvo. Okay, after they destroyed the Ship of the Dead they just left them defenseless again but I thought that was just due to the under-written nature of Discovery scripts that we've come to expect. I mean, Lorca made this fucking speech about "making the Empire glorious again" and went on and on about how worthless aliens are. Dude, you served with Saru for months, you really think he is just a tasty treat? But okay, that speech was just there for the writers to make it look like they are making a point about today's politics. I am anything but a Trump supporter (heck, he isn't my president even, I'm not American) but Jesus, that was stupid.
I had really hoped that was where the story was headed. Then at least his whole character would have had a point. But no, he's just eeeeeeeeviiiiiilllll. Which doesn't even make sense as he was clearly showing more compassion in the Prime universe then he would have had to to maintain his cover. He even tells Saru in their last conversation that he grew to admire him and the rest of the crew, so apparently he did grow as a person while being in the Prime Universe. But then he didn't...
KingOfMadCows ya... Ya.
Well, since he turned into a green dot and went onto Tilly, maybe he'll redeem himself as a light orb thing
The best arc for Lorca would be if he had wanted to bring Federation (or rather, Federation-like) values to the Terran Empire all along. It would be great if he had the right intentions all along and he wanted to get the emperor to set up a peaceful earth.
But, my version of Lorca is ruthless. His position is that the ends justify the means ("Universal law is for lackeys. Context is for kings."), so he's willing to do a lot of unethical things to achieve a good goal. So is he good or bad? That's the kind of moral conundrum that Star Trek thrives on. So of course the right answer will turn out to be that the ends don't justify the means, but the question should not be "blowing up a planet: justified or not?" but "killing this one asshole and whoever stands in my way to get to her: justified or not?"
Star Trek: The Fungus Awakens
One of my favorite things now is to hear this two talk about Star Trek.
I want to see a Trek where crispy wheelchair Pike is once again captain of his own ship, giving commands with beeps and blinks.
I really like how this Star Wars show came out
wait...the lead female character's name is "Michael Burnham"??
Yeah, Michelle is too edgy nowadays. They did go from white male captain to black female after all.
Yeah, but she wasn't captain yet, so kinda not diverse enough.
Anonymous it's technically "Rey", not sure if that version was a male name before. That's probably why they went with an 'e' instead of and 'a'
It's meant to be memorable and unique, but it's just kinda distracting.
Bryan Fuller does that a lot with his female characters.
“We have the most sophisticated technology ever invented in the universe”
“NO! Lets headbutt each other instead”
Concise description of Wakanda in Black Panther.
Christopher Sanna You mean Marvel in general? Asgardians have super advanced tech, let's make an hammer. Tony stark has invented infinite clean energy, let's hunt terrorists. Ant-Man has invented the tech to cure all illness, nah let's use it to chill with ants. Dr. Strange has access to interdimensional energy, let's make whips out of it. In other words, writers are often stupid.
Grandsome you are completely right
One of the many reasons I can't watch superhero movies anymore.
I tried to rewatch it twice, both times I couldnt get past "Into the Forrest I go" where Mycool Burnhamn had the "fight" with the Klingorc dude, it was comedic gold
Finally, a spot on well deserved critical lambasting without all the endless one-note harping, handwringing, wailing over canon.
I think Discovery would have been much better if it had just ditched the season long Klingon War arc and done some smaller multi-episode arcs.
There wasn't much of a Klingon War past episode 2 ; they total number of seasons that directly relate to it are likely just a few minutes.
Unless one count Kol as a representation of the war.
But the show isn't at all interested in war. War is expensive.
This show is written by people who used to write Gilmore Girls - that should be a strong indicator of tone here.
90 Lancaster But Gilmore Girls was a happy hopeful show.
It would have been much better if they had set it Post-Next Gen era. nobody would have complained about it.
Kind of like Star Trek Online, which takes place in the 25th century and the Klingons and Federation are no longer allies.
Yup. No needs for dumb retcons. No need for constant references to characters don't act like they did before. The tech level suddenly makes sense. The ship designs suddenly make sense.
Set it post TNG, call the "Klingons" Tzenkethi or whatever name you want and all your problems are solved - and you don't have to change a single part of the story Discovery told.
"simplislisk"
I love how Rich Evans pronounces words lol.
Rich should have his own subtitles.
I love how they look like they did this review after spending 20 minutes watching all the 'next week on Discovery' trails and had not seen the actual show.
Folding chable
90 Lancaster maybe it's just shit mate.
It's weird seeing Mike talking about Star Trek.
discovery just makes me want to watch other trek
31:45 That is EXACTLY the same thing I imagined in my mind when they showed the spore drive. Janeway would be so disappointed to learn that.
I appreciate the farscape mention very much
Star Trek ... In tha hooouse!
war am bad, m'kay
Me bad?
the klingon scientists should be respected like the ork mekboyz in 40K. They're driven by innate need to innovate in the field of killing, inventing new tanks, aircraft, spaceships, and armaments in the name of advancing the prestige and power of their clan. There is also no reason a klingon scientist couldn't also be a warrior, a valued engineer aboard spacecraft and planet side.
The problem with Star Trek Discovery and JJ Star Trek is Michael Bay and his style of storytelling.
JJ Abrams, Orci, Kurtzman, Goldsman. Look for the pattern:
Armageddon (1998):
Directed by Michael Bay, Screenplay by J. J. Abrams
The Island (2005):
Directed by Michael Bay, Screenplay by Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman
The Legend of Zorro (2005):
Story and Screenplay by Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman
Mission: Impossible III (2006):
Directed by J. J. Abrams, Written by J. J. Abrams, Roberto Orci, Alex Kurtzman
Transformers (2007):
Directed by Michael Bay, Story and Screenplay by Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman
Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (2009):
Directed by Michael Bay, Written by Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman
Star Trek (2009):
Directed by J. J. Abrams, Written by Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman
Cowboys & Aliens (2011):
Screenplay by Roberto Orci, Alex Kurtzman and Damon Lindelof
Prometheus (2012 film)
Written by Damon Lindelof
Star Trek Into Darkness (2013):
Directed by J. J. Abrams, Written by Roberto Orci, Alex Kurtzman and Damon Lindelof
The Amazing Spider-Man 2 (2014):
Story and Screenplay by Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman
Star Wars: The Force Awakens (2015)
Directed and Written by J. J. Abrams
Transformers: The Last Knight (2017):
Directed by Michael Bay, Story by Akiva Goldsman
Star Trek: Discovery (2017):
Created by Alex Kurtzman, Executive producer Akiva Goldsman
"The Vulcan Hello" Story by Alex Kurtzman, Teleplay by Akiva Goldsman
Why is Star Trek (and Star Wars) in the hands of people who worked together with Michael Bay for decades and wrote some of his worst movies (Transformers, Armageddon, The Island)?
Oh god, I did not know this. This makes so much more sense now!
My guess is that Hollywood is all about circlejerking and all people that did worth something just fucked off to enjoy life and remove them selves from having to deal with this cancer.
I liked the first transformers
The notion that things are bad because we can play seven degrees of separation with Michael bay is utterly childish.
luchomscyfy and?