Now I feel bad for all those times I don’t join TW…. Good stuff for sure! Love the crystal comparison. As you note, it really depends how you value each currency which will be subjective.
The value of the rewards is not an absolute measure. The argument against TW is not just about the rewards. Its also about the horrible matching making for "average" guilds. Sure there are a handful of guilds that have an 75%+ win rate, but MOST guilds have 30-50% win rate. And importantly the amount of TW omicron investment and the effort needed to win more TW (in the medium term) does not put value on the extra rewards. Most guilds are in an endless cycle of win an an easy match up, then lose an impossible match. Every now and then you get a close match, which needs significant effort to win. The more you win these close match ups, the more likely an impossible match is next. Some guilds are fixing their results so they get a good chance of an easy match up when a new datacron set is released, to maximise the level 9 re-roll effectiveness.
Hey Ray, first, thanks for you input! I would like to touch on a few point just for conversation. This video is in no way a matchmaking video as I understand the inconsistencies and the frustrations that come with that. I would argue that the value of rewards is an absolute measure though, just like everything. I had to relic characters I didn't really want to relic so we can achieve max crate in raids, get more stars in TB, etc etc. So the investment (omicrons, GL farming, etc) that comes with having a suitable PvP account is part of that, imo. My guild that I am leader of is like 74-1 in TW (smaller one, 324 mil GP), it comes down to finding players that are looking for that some action inside of the game though. Like I said, this isn't a video advocating that TW is amazing and that you can win every single TW. This is a video looking at "does the TW rewards suck?" and "well we lost but thats okay because the differences between winning and losing isn't that big." Both of which I subscribed to because thats what everyone has told me haha.
@@ando90 appreciate your take and effort to address this issue. to ray's point above, tw for most guilds is a miserable feast or famine experience making the rewards - however 'fair' - largely irrelevant from a gameplay experience.
@@swsweaty7731 Yes, I definitely feel the feast of famine, as I have been in guild where asking someone, or more accurately a group of people to attack, is like pulling teeth. I have also been in guilds where its like, the wall has been showing for 30 minutes and everyone is locked in and attacking under coordination and everyone's having a blast, "win or lose." I think this is more the issue with TW, and not the rewards.
I think my only comment about 2 a week is to ensure that every TW week you are getting this twice, so the numbers you saw, could be double, if that makes sense. So if you look at it from your point of view you would need to add up what your win win or your win loss or your loss loss got you.
@ando90 Thanks for the video. So, if I was a pure F2P player (no spending) and I have 2 options: A) Stay in a TW-focused high-level guild that averages 7-1 every 56 days (two 28-day cycles) in TW. -Spend 50 & 100 crystal refreshes in Conquest every day Conquest is up (13.5k crystals per 56 days) -Spend 925 shard currency to buy 25 Mk1 Reroll and 25 Mk2 Reroll, 28 times to stock up on enough rerolls (5.4k crystals per 56 days) -Spend 500 shard currency to buy 1M cache, 56 times to stock up on enough cache (5.8k crystals per 56 days) That's about 24.7k crystals spent on datacrons. Not only that, my TW-focused guild will require me to spend at least half of my omicron income on TW omicrons rather than GAC. I will be rated about 3850 in GAC (Kyber 1), due to not too many GAC omicrons but tons of datacrons to make-up for it. I get from TW, according to the video, 75k crystals worth of rewards. However, I have no choice over what rewards I get, and the rewards are valued at weekly shipment price, so probably overvalued compared to the market value. So in reality, I probably get 50k crystals worth of useful stuff. B) Stay in a normal high-level guild that averages 3-5 every 56 days (two 28-day cycles) in TW. -Spend only a couple of 50 crystal refreshes in Conquest just to get 2 red crates (1.5k crystals per 56 days) -Spend nothing on reroll materials or cache in datacron store That's about 1.5k crystals spent on datacrons. Not only that, my guild will allow me to put all of my omicrons into GAC. I will be rated about 3750 in GAC (Kyber 1), due to having all the important GAC omicrons but not many datacrons but the free ones to play with. I get from TW, according to the video, 55k crystals worth of rewards. However, for the same reason above, the true value is probably about 36.7k crystals worth of useful stuff. So, in the end, I spend 23.2k crystals more on datacrons to get 13.3k crystals worth of random gear and stuff. I hope folks understand why I don't spend too much on datacrons. It mainly takes away from the long-term grind and I see it as nothing but whale food. There's a degree of diminishing return, but if CG wants me to spend more on datacrons, they must up the rewards in TW by more than double...
Hey Thrawn, well, it kind of depends because TW is usually associated with a more active guild. Generally speaking, TW guilds are the better guilds too, around people that usually take the game seriously, don't mind adding stuff onto characters (zetas, omicrons, datacrons, relics) for the betterment of the guild. So, really I am asking: will the less serious TW guild cost you in other areas even though the cost of DCs will be less? If yes, then take that into account. If no, then I see no issue with the switch.
@@ando90 I've done some math on this topic a few months ago comparing the different game modes, and datacrons really is one of the worst investments you could make long-term, in terms of Return on Investment and overall guild growth. That's because the other game modes have more permanent return on investment, especially TB. It's almost always essential for guilds to target special missions in TB and capitalize on those rather than spending extra on datacrons just for a few months of extra power. That's why I mark datacrons as mostly whale food. Their return on investment only becomes more noticeable when there's nothing else to invest in.
Fwiw, DCs also keep you "relevant" enough to keep a decent amount of crystal flow coming in. Can you easily "overspend" on them, for sure, no doubt. But if I had to guess there isn't an account in k1 (save for the random ones in k1 that should be in aurodium, lol) that have 0 DCs. At the end of the day as well, they represent fun little mechanics that are added in to liven up niche interactions or introduce new ones so, as I always say, fun should always be front and center.
As my guild's TW Officer, thank you for this video! 1) Love a good spreadsheet 2) Love the math 3) Opened my eyes to the crystal value we get from winning. I honestly did not think it was that much.
I was quite shocked doing this too. Like I said, I play it because I love working together as a guild and getting the job done. Everyone told me the rewards suck and at first glance I just sort of bought it lol, but yeah in general you are sacrificing about half your rewards for each loss, just hard to keep track of it when you hit "collect." Also, on behalf of your guild, thank you for what you do, you are seen here lol.
OK, no, just no. A TW win is just not worth 10,000 crystals Sure, carbantis have a crystal cost -- so I'm not disagreeing with your maths or spreadsheet, it's just that that would be an insane use of crystals Same is true for almost all the gear you reference I'm assuming you're getting 1st or 2nd crate in the Raid -- and that doesn't mean you have infinite gear, but it means that gear is no longer a bottle neck and therefore it's effective value is minimal. Is TW worth it -- this simple isn't a question that can be answered without asking: what is the crystal (and other opportunity) cost of being good in TW? That's why (don't remember whether it was MAW or CAW that took time off from TW) the first thing they said was: this will be a net wash in income because what it costs to be competitive in TW is bonkers -- datacrons are not free and missing out on GAC omicrons because your guild wants TW ones is also a cost The only things that make TW wins worthwhile are the Droid brains and the datacron reroll mats and except for plus 12.5m gp accounts, I expect that Droid Brains aren't that big of a deal (I'm at 11.6 and I have 300 of the stupid things, because r9 is rarely worth it). So the more realistic crystal return is about 2,000 -- but even that presumes that you care about rerolling datacrons -- and the vast, vast, vast proportion of swgoh players don't I mean *I do* so winning TW is great and losing sucks ... but mostly cos that means my GAC datacrons won't be as good :)
It is worth 10,000 crystals lol. My spreadsheet proves that. We are assigning it a crystal cost to see what the relative price for winning and losing is. I could also say that a TW win worth 7 apples since 10,000 crystals is over 49.99 lol, but I never said that TW wins are going to pay for your family to eat apples lol. We are just using the numbers to compare what the cost of it is. That was CAW, I am not part of their leadership team, but their cost was "we dont want anymore retirements so we are going to take away TW for a few months." Thats fine, but they went a few months without zetas and the other things, they lost players, gained others, again, no judgement but that was their decision and it didn't come without a cost, that much I guarantee you. Most players that are good at TW are still pretty good at GAC, you do tend to specialize in one area, but if the leaderboards were accurate, you would see a ton of CAW and MAW accounts in the top 50. They feed into one of each other, even if they are not a 1 for 1 comparison. I am the guy with the lowest GAC omicrons in my bracket and I am still holding K1 and never really dropped that out of it (even when the shrinkage was happening). I use TW mods, so I'm far from optimized. Is there a cost to TW, yes. Is being good at TW going to plummet your ranking, no, does not seem so. Thanks for your comment and insight!
Yeah, but wrong comparison. You must remove rewards that you have excessive amounts of or easily obtained like credits. 5 TW battles give you about the same amount of gear regardless if you win or lose. It's also very different for lower rankings especially under 70 million.
This is adding subjectivity to the comparison, which I have found isn't the right move. My small guild that I'm the leader of is 75-1 in TW, which means they have 75 extra zeta, which they really value at this point. My larger guild, the extra zeta is not the important part. Different ends of the game, you'll value different things. This just looks at holistically, "what are we getting?"
@@ando90 firstly cudos on that 75/1 win ratio that's insanely impressive secondly, I'm still zeta crunched and I'd consider myself pretty end game! But there still remains a basic problem with your analysis: If I tell you I've just bought a mars bar for $100, your reaction should not be: wow, I had no idea mars bars were so expensive! it should be: you're an idiot likewise for many (not all) of your crystal comparisons -- saying that carbs are worth 700 crystals is true, absolutely, whilst also being like the $100 mars bar. Nobody buys them for that much. And my final point: you cannot talk about what you're getting, without what it costs to get it, remains. If the costs to win consistently are high, and they are, then not paying them and taking 2nd, may be worthwhile. I genuinely don't know the answer to this though!
@theuraniumkid8141 I still think you are missing the point. It's not that I'm saying wow look at you getting 10,000 crystals worth of stuff. I am giving it that value because the weekly store gives us a cost, whether or not you agree with it is irrelevant. We did it because at the end....It's not 10k vs 5k crystals but in a crystal amount we got half the rewards. We took the common denominator being the weekly store and made everything equal to each other so that way we could really look at what's the cost of winning vs losing, and the cost is, from a crystal basis half. We have to be able to associate a value to this stuff. So it's not about buying the gear for that much, it's about finding a value. That value changes from person to person but to get us all looking at the same picture is the goal here.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 89 | คู่เอก "ยอดไอคิว vs คิริลล์"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Z3vYkHJ_5Ig/mqdefault.jpg)
![[ ออกกอง ] วัยหนุ่ม 2544 โลกหลังลูกกรง..ทัวร์กองถ่ายหนังใน "คุกของจริง" | JUSTดูIT.](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/vB--aOkZCpw/mqdefault.jpg)
Also, sorry that my silly head covers some of those crystal conversions up top!
Tbh I really like the fact, that the loser in a TW is not THAT much behind the winner. This keeps motivation up.
Unless you need r9 mats
The most important swgoh video by any content creator right here, folks! Nice job, Ando.
Appreciate the high praise!
Good info. Thanks Ando
Appreciate it brother!
Now I feel bad for all those times I don’t join TW….
Good stuff for sure! Love the crystal comparison. As you note, it really depends how you value each currency which will be subjective.
Haha yeah, like I said, the craziest part to me is that winners got relic mats and lovers didn't, I never knew that
The value of the rewards is not an absolute measure. The argument against TW is not just about the rewards. Its also about the horrible matching making for "average" guilds. Sure there are a handful of guilds that have an 75%+ win rate, but MOST guilds have 30-50% win rate. And importantly the amount of TW omicron investment and the effort needed to win more TW (in the medium term) does not put value on the extra rewards.
Most guilds are in an endless cycle of win an an easy match up, then lose an impossible match. Every now and then you get a close match, which needs significant effort to win. The more you win these close match ups, the more likely an impossible match is next. Some guilds are fixing their results so they get a good chance of an easy match up when a new datacron set is released, to maximise the level 9 re-roll effectiveness.
Hey Ray, first, thanks for you input!
I would like to touch on a few point just for conversation. This video is in no way a matchmaking video as I understand the inconsistencies and the frustrations that come with that. I would argue that the value of rewards is an absolute measure though, just like everything. I had to relic characters I didn't really want to relic so we can achieve max crate in raids, get more stars in TB, etc etc. So the investment (omicrons, GL farming, etc) that comes with having a suitable PvP account is part of that, imo. My guild that I am leader of is like 74-1 in TW (smaller one, 324 mil GP), it comes down to finding players that are looking for that some action inside of the game though.
Like I said, this isn't a video advocating that TW is amazing and that you can win every single TW. This is a video looking at "does the TW rewards suck?" and "well we lost but thats okay because the differences between winning and losing isn't that big." Both of which I subscribed to because thats what everyone has told me haha.
@@ando90 appreciate your take and effort to address this issue. to ray's point above, tw for most guilds is a miserable feast or famine experience making the rewards - however 'fair' - largely irrelevant from a gameplay experience.
@@swsweaty7731 Yes, I definitely feel the feast of famine, as I have been in guild where asking someone, or more accurately a group of people to attack, is like pulling teeth. I have also been in guilds where its like, the wall has been showing for 30 minutes and everyone is locked in and attacking under coordination and everyone's having a blast, "win or lose."
I think this is more the issue with TW, and not the rewards.
You know Aldo is cool bc he uses dark theme Excel
Lol dark theme >> in general but if I don't my face is like ghost white while I record
Rather than seeing TW as 2x a week thing, it's 4x per 28 days, or better: weekly like raids.
I think my only comment about 2 a week is to ensure that every TW week you are getting this twice, so the numbers you saw, could be double, if that makes sense. So if you look at it from your point of view you would need to add up what your win win or your win loss or your loss loss got you.
@ando90 Thanks for the video. So, if I was a pure F2P player (no spending) and I have 2 options:
A) Stay in a TW-focused high-level guild that averages 7-1 every 56 days (two 28-day cycles) in TW.
-Spend 50 & 100 crystal refreshes in Conquest every day Conquest is up (13.5k crystals per 56 days)
-Spend 925 shard currency to buy 25 Mk1 Reroll and 25 Mk2 Reroll, 28 times to stock up on enough rerolls (5.4k crystals per 56 days)
-Spend 500 shard currency to buy 1M cache, 56 times to stock up on enough cache (5.8k crystals per 56 days)
That's about 24.7k crystals spent on datacrons.
Not only that, my TW-focused guild will require me to spend at least half of my omicron income on TW omicrons rather than GAC.
I will be rated about 3850 in GAC (Kyber 1), due to not too many GAC omicrons but tons of datacrons to make-up for it.
I get from TW, according to the video, 75k crystals worth of rewards. However, I have no choice over what rewards I get, and the rewards are valued at weekly shipment price, so probably overvalued compared to the market value. So in reality, I probably get 50k crystals worth of useful stuff.
B) Stay in a normal high-level guild that averages 3-5 every 56 days (two 28-day cycles) in TW.
-Spend only a couple of 50 crystal refreshes in Conquest just to get 2 red crates (1.5k crystals per 56 days)
-Spend nothing on reroll materials or cache in datacron store
That's about 1.5k crystals spent on datacrons.
Not only that, my guild will allow me to put all of my omicrons into GAC.
I will be rated about 3750 in GAC (Kyber 1), due to having all the important GAC omicrons but not many datacrons but the free ones to play with.
I get from TW, according to the video, 55k crystals worth of rewards. However, for the same reason above, the true value is probably about 36.7k crystals worth of useful stuff.
So, in the end, I spend 23.2k crystals more on datacrons to get 13.3k crystals worth of random gear and stuff.
I hope folks understand why I don't spend too much on datacrons. It mainly takes away from the long-term grind and I see it as nothing but whale food. There's a degree of diminishing return, but if CG wants me to spend more on datacrons, they must up the rewards in TW by more than double...
Hey Thrawn, well, it kind of depends because TW is usually associated with a more active guild. Generally speaking, TW guilds are the better guilds too, around people that usually take the game seriously, don't mind adding stuff onto characters (zetas, omicrons, datacrons, relics) for the betterment of the guild.
So, really I am asking: will the less serious TW guild cost you in other areas even though the cost of DCs will be less? If yes, then take that into account. If no, then I see no issue with the switch.
@@ando90 I've done some math on this topic a few months ago comparing the different game modes, and datacrons really is one of the worst investments you could make long-term, in terms of Return on Investment and overall guild growth. That's because the other game modes have more permanent return on investment, especially TB. It's almost always essential for guilds to target special missions in TB and capitalize on those rather than spending extra on datacrons just for a few months of extra power.
That's why I mark datacrons as mostly whale food. Their return on investment only becomes more noticeable when there's nothing else to invest in.
Fwiw, DCs also keep you "relevant" enough to keep a decent amount of crystal flow coming in. Can you easily "overspend" on them, for sure, no doubt. But if I had to guess there isn't an account in k1 (save for the random ones in k1 that should be in aurodium, lol) that have 0 DCs.
At the end of the day as well, they represent fun little mechanics that are added in to liven up niche interactions or introduce new ones so, as I always say, fun should always be front and center.
As my guild's TW Officer, thank you for this video! 1) Love a good spreadsheet 2) Love the math 3) Opened my eyes to the crystal value we get from winning. I honestly did not think it was that much.
I was quite shocked doing this too. Like I said, I play it because I love working together as a guild and getting the job done. Everyone told me the rewards suck and at first glance I just sort of bought it lol, but yeah in general you are sacrificing about half your rewards for each loss, just hard to keep track of it when you hit "collect."
Also, on behalf of your guild, thank you for what you do, you are seen here lol.
OK, no, just no.
A TW win is just not worth 10,000 crystals
Sure, carbantis have a crystal cost -- so I'm not disagreeing with your maths or spreadsheet, it's just that that would be an insane use of crystals
Same is true for almost all the gear you reference
I'm assuming you're getting 1st or 2nd crate in the Raid -- and that doesn't mean you have infinite gear, but it means that gear is no longer a bottle neck and therefore it's effective value is minimal.
Is TW worth it -- this simple isn't a question that can be answered without asking: what is the crystal (and other opportunity) cost of being good in TW?
That's why (don't remember whether it was MAW or CAW that took time off from TW) the first thing they said was: this will be a net wash in income because what it costs to be competitive in TW is bonkers -- datacrons are not free and missing out on GAC omicrons because your guild wants TW ones is also a cost
The only things that make TW wins worthwhile are the Droid brains and the datacron reroll mats and except for plus 12.5m gp accounts, I expect that Droid Brains aren't that big of a deal (I'm at 11.6 and I have 300 of the stupid things, because r9 is rarely worth it).
So the more realistic crystal return is about 2,000 -- but even that presumes that you care about rerolling datacrons -- and the vast, vast, vast proportion of swgoh players don't
I mean *I do* so winning TW is great and losing sucks ... but mostly cos that means my GAC datacrons won't be as good :)
It is worth 10,000 crystals lol. My spreadsheet proves that. We are assigning it a crystal cost to see what the relative price for winning and losing is. I could also say that a TW win worth 7 apples since 10,000 crystals is over 49.99 lol, but I never said that TW wins are going to pay for your family to eat apples lol. We are just using the numbers to compare what the cost of it is.
That was CAW, I am not part of their leadership team, but their cost was "we dont want anymore retirements so we are going to take away TW for a few months." Thats fine, but they went a few months without zetas and the other things, they lost players, gained others, again, no judgement but that was their decision and it didn't come without a cost, that much I guarantee you.
Most players that are good at TW are still pretty good at GAC, you do tend to specialize in one area, but if the leaderboards were accurate, you would see a ton of CAW and MAW accounts in the top 50. They feed into one of each other, even if they are not a 1 for 1 comparison.
I am the guy with the lowest GAC omicrons in my bracket and I am still holding K1 and never really dropped that out of it (even when the shrinkage was happening). I use TW mods, so I'm far from optimized. Is there a cost to TW, yes. Is being good at TW going to plummet your ranking, no, does not seem so.
Thanks for your comment and insight!
Yeah, but wrong comparison. You must remove rewards that you have excessive amounts of or easily obtained like credits. 5 TW battles give you about the same amount of gear regardless if you win or lose. It's also very different for lower rankings especially under 70 million.
This is adding subjectivity to the comparison, which I have found isn't the right move. My small guild that I'm the leader of is 75-1 in TW, which means they have 75 extra zeta, which they really value at this point. My larger guild, the extra zeta is not the important part. Different ends of the game, you'll value different things. This just looks at holistically, "what are we getting?"
@@ando90 firstly cudos on that 75/1 win ratio that's insanely impressive
secondly, I'm still zeta crunched and I'd consider myself pretty end game!
But there still remains a basic problem with your analysis:
If I tell you I've just bought a mars bar for $100, your reaction should not be: wow, I had no idea mars bars were so expensive! it should be: you're an idiot
likewise for many (not all) of your crystal comparisons -- saying that carbs are worth 700 crystals is true, absolutely, whilst also being like the $100 mars bar. Nobody buys them for that much.
And my final point: you cannot talk about what you're getting, without what it costs to get it, remains.
If the costs to win consistently are high, and they are, then not paying them and taking 2nd, may be worthwhile.
I genuinely don't know the answer to this though!
@theuraniumkid8141 I still think you are missing the point. It's not that I'm saying wow look at you getting 10,000 crystals worth of stuff. I am giving it that value because the weekly store gives us a cost, whether or not you agree with it is irrelevant. We did it because at the end....It's not 10k vs 5k crystals but in a crystal amount we got half the rewards. We took the common denominator being the weekly store and made everything equal to each other so that way we could really look at what's the cost of winning vs losing, and the cost is, from a crystal basis half. We have to be able to associate a value to this stuff.
So it's not about buying the gear for that much, it's about finding a value. That value changes from person to person but to get us all looking at the same picture is the goal here.