IT'S TIME TO REPLACE THIS ONE
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- The time has come to get rid of this unit.
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That's pretty scary that the crane operator lifted the new unit up and over you before you signaled for it. Thanks so much for taking us along on this one Chris.
It’s crazy they are using hand signals with a crane operator and there’s no rigger/dog man with the crane
@@BrickTop900 In my area, you typically only get 1 dude driving up in a crane until you get up to 90+ ton cranes.
Half the time, the guys running sign trucks and 25 ton cranes don't even know hand signals.
I don't do HVAC work for a living. I do IT work. I play around with automotive electronics for fun. Looking at the Siemens setup, this is the proper way to configure, setup and test the equipment. I did notice the open/close set points for the damper . Plug and play things are usually plug and pray. Complain to Siemens that the WiFi stick isn't integrated into the board or that an Ethernet port isn't on the board.
The placement alone is insane. In the direct airflow of outside air. Those economizer filters aren't going to protect it from the elements.
yeah, i live in ashrae climate zone 6a (cold humid) and this thing would maybe last two years here if you're lucky lol
I bet they determined that they needed air flow or they would overheat and fail. Sound familiar to the constantly failing VFD in the blower compartment?!?!?
LOL, I used to work for Siemens, while I do not know that device specifically, I do know many manufacturers make it difficult for people to make easy changes. Hey, after all, it's a service call after that.
If you use the GPS option it does the settings automatically based on where it is installed. Manual settings are just if you want to override the automatic. Maybe they should have labeled one "Easy Setup" and the other "Advanced". At least they give you the advanced option if you want to go that deep into it.
Yeah I’m sure I would have figured that out if they sent the installation instructions….
@@HVACRVIDEOS Beyond that, I am sure you said it before as well. Take the time to let them know, that way they can improve. An app easily should be able to do the math for you these days. But maybe no one building the App had this in his or her mindset.
As cheap as Wifi or bluetooth modules are to build in into such a device, for those "industrial applications" I can see why they want to use a separate USB dongle. That way not everyone can simply mess with it. Or they are jus carrying on with the stuff they came up with about 15 years ago.
@@HVACRVIDEOS I think that's not a Siemens fault. It's a factory fault by the company that built the unit - I would say shit quality control...... especially with the dip switches set wrong. Siemens normal send with their products a thick manual incl. a trouble shooting section. The unit producer just failed to give it to you.
Yeah im not doing the setup if they make it that complicated on the economizer. I dont mind if they did like a ke2 style in which you plug in with an internet cable and able to control the entire unit i could see setting it up
Just like 9-16watts ecm motor in refrigeration case or evaporator.
You need specific key tools to configure dual speed rpm from a range to 500 to 2100. Each keys cost more than 200$
Why th F.
Wait until you see the black magic my Daikin air conditioner needs, when it asks for a firmware update. And it only has 3 buttons.
Unfortunately, engineers don’t think like service people. I hope they listen to your brilliant suggestion. Mine don’t.
A couple of things i noticed…the actuator will come either programmed “fail to open” or “fail to close”, so the manufacturer doesn’t know which program u would want and u would have to change it on the dip switch and that’s y u we’re getting that error code in the beginning…also the economizer shouldn’t be that complicated if your going by enthalpy because all you have to do is go buy ur gps location…it may seem complicated but if u work with them a lot it would become easier the more u do it
When would you want a "fail to open" scenario?
@@jrsmyth9761 I work at a sewage laboratory where they needed 100% outside air with no return and the economizer was a fail to open…the actuator would modulate depending on the building static pressure
I’m also doing the Gas licence We have gas 3 , gas 2 and gas 1 which G1 is the highest level, you can work on unlimited BTUH G2 you can work independently and up to 400,000 btu
With your Fieldpiece meter when checking Phase rotation, your black lead is L1 and Red lead is L2 and L3. Made the same mistake with mine then realized its stamped near the leads.
Good morning Chris, hope you have a good day, cool replacement, i love drawing and watch the units you fix and replace
Noticed technical support and equipment settings moving more towards a centralized support center, (less local field tech. setup). You are *so spot-on* about information sharing / training for the field personnel, (at the on-site equipment level). During new equipment installs, the support folks would have the local tech connect to the equipment, then ask for screen-control permission to your equipment through your locally-connected device,(with internet access also), so they could fly through the settings and then quickly say -> bye. (Keeping the *setup know-how to themselves* ).
Loved this video! I’ve been saying it for a while now. These manufacturers send us technicians parts with terrible instructions and don’t tell us or show us or to install them or how they even work. Shame on them. Thanks for the video!
Same in the UK 🙈
the green and blue markers on terminals is to show they've been checked/inspected and torqued/connected to proper terminals. not for the field installer to look at/follow/assume it means anything.
JCI (York) does the same thing with their enthalpy settings on their failure prone economizer control modules
I remember the days when opening the window and letting in the breeze was new technology
Chris. All economizers are a pain in the ass. It just seems like it’s the one thing these manufactures can’t seem to make easy.
i totally agree with you on the economizer issue. i've also found tech support so freaking helpful. I love their help but i hate that i need to call them.
Even though your distributor was bundling the Siemens economizer, were you able to get a Honeywell model instead?
The wi-f adapter being removable might make more sense from a security angle. If it's not there advertising an SSID to the world, that closes off one possible avenue for exploits, especially with a hardcoded, common password. (That's another kind of dumb, but still common.) Of course, it would be smarter to have the module built in, a random password unique to each unit, and maybe even a pushbutton to turn the wi-fi on or off as the technician needs it.
I love that you cut yourself off mid-sentence with the intro XD
I find that hilarious.
Hey Chris I just passed my 313a refrigeration and ac system mechanic licence in canada. Interprovincial across canada . I’m soo happy . Was wondering in the states what’s the highest level of certification you can get in the states
What's on the red seal so I know what to study lol???
@@kailesadler13 you live in canada ?
new carrier unit I installed came with actuator installed backwards too lol
"The whole point of that economizer was that it made it super easy for idiots like to understand the economizer"
Made me laugh more than it should have 🤣🤣
You would have thought the building owner would ask you which AC unit to buy as a replacement. You know which AC units are good and which are junk.
another great video , and the Scavenger's Daughter music during crane lift fit well with October/Halloween respect to your patience and perseverance figuring stuff out
it's all good
What are your experiences with the crane companies? On time? Good service? Ty for sharing.
Rolling on the floor😂😂😂 you said what I been saying since the first piece of computer hardware was added to units!!! What is wrong with SIMPLE???? 😂 it’s like some of the residential heat units used here in Michigan.. it has come to a point that you have to go to “their” schooling and buy their super high$$$ test equipment to service their units ! AN the all DC control units?? The motors are above an beyond realistic cost😢😢 when it is cheaper for the customer to hire me to replace a 4 year old unit with another brand than repair the existing unit?? That is unrealistic stupid!!!! Give the customer the choice $2800. Repair $2000. Replace? You know what they are going to do. ( years and cost are Just examples) but scary close to reality.. I am all for high Teck and operating cost efficiency.. but at what price?? lol see?? You’re not the only one that can go on a rant and rave 🤣🤣🤣
(edited fur a small spell boo boo)
I hope I'm right , i think they paint two blue and one green then unit also can be wired two phases function ,instead of three phases ,maybe ?
Great Video. Thank you for sharing.
Why are the fuses bare copper and not tinned so they don't oxidize?
A well known German saying: „Does it have to be working or shall it be something made by Siemens”? They generally make good products but are also known for sometimes constructing appliances which require many updates or revisions.
External WLAN module reduces cost and is not needed during normal operation. Moreover, having it constantly in the device is a security issue. Anyone can connect and start messing up with settings remotely, making it very hard to even find a culprit. With someone especially mean, he could even reverse changes just as technician came and have it messed up after his departure. You not only wouldn't be able to find a problem, let alone solving it. Even changing the password won't help as with enough time it can be defeated.
For you it's one time purchase, and then you can set every one of them. Customer not only don't need it, even more shouldn't have access to one, as it would be even easier for him to mess something up. Only problem is, will it work in newer models?
The wifi network could be initiated with a WPS button like on a router. Just temporarily broadcast a hidden SSID while you have the app open, and it automatically opens the config for the unit. There shouldn't even be a password. The cost to put a WLAN chip in the device is less than the cost of the USB controller that they need to handle the external dongle. This is 100% only to get techs to buy a $3 dongle for $100, and nothing more.
Also, do people target economizers? I can't imagine someone spending the time to download a random economizer config app, and going to a place to connect to a random wifi network to mess with the HVAC settings. Why would anyone possibly want to do that?
Without rants like this, nothing changes. Rant on, brother. I, for one, agree with what you said.
I died when you were like carrier you are dumb 😂💀 “take it easy” naco libre voice 😂
It would have cost around $1 to put a Bluetooth chip in that economiser and not have that shitty dongle.
Good job Chris.
Can you keep the Wi-Fi dongle and use it on multiple units at least? It’s not paired with the machine you used it on I hope.
Nice work and video Chris.
It did say "Download Required" - probably mismatched firmware ?
Its all about controlling access.... controlling repair ability... they are all about.... franchising fees from their end users... follow the $$$$
Always wear helmets. if a 10kg hook comes down, your safe....lol
If you only buy and install units that are installer, repairman friendly. Wouldn’t that solve your problem?
I also am not a fan of the Siemens Econ controller. Not really intuitive. Though not as bad as the Carrier “Mr. Blinky” Econ controller from the early 90’s. I’ve also never seen the Siemens module mounted in the Econ hood like that. They’ve always come loose and we put them next to the board in the electrical section. Maybe that’s something they do for higher tonnage units like that one? I’ve only done 3-5 ton units with the Siemens controller.
@HVACR have you seen if carrier offers training on economizers?
Always learned something, great video.
You forgot to switch the damper to metric - Celsius baby!
I wonder how long carrier will do the tandem compressors for, I give it a couple years
Did Sigler give youoption of Jade vs Siemens?
Functional and operational but customer agrees it's time to replace it. Do some customers have a change out schedule to replace functional equipment just to get a tax credit? I doubt few normal homeowners would change a unit just for the heck of it. I am probably wrong. I usually am.
Were do you wat to save money?
On part, or on hourly paid technicians. Can’t be both.
i just installed the same unit a few days ago and have same issue with economizer fully opening on power up. What were the dipswitch settings you were given for the actuator?
I cannot stand those Siemens econo controllers. Lennox is using them too not a good jade ripoff lol
Fuggin engineers, man.
Why to use a wifi module when the most of the "smart" devices uses or utilizing Bluetooth... lennox EMEA uses Carel CPCO 5 with NFC and Bluetooth and you can configure the whole unit from just one controller companies have to get smarter but also easier not dumb.
Carrier is junk. Where I work, every rooftop unit is constantly failing.
they are making it hard for technicians to understand the equipment unless you train with their equipment. protecting their market share.
Everything needs an App, but from my experience most manufacturers want not pay for propper implemention of the software 😞
A minute to display live values, why the can sell this for so much money. That infuriating to me.
Yes the industry needs to be better. We're going through a time where they will just add an app and I'll make everything easier actually not put in the effort into making it usable. I do tech-support and people are like can you fix this I'm like no because it stuck with however the company coded it and I have no access to the coding because why would we make it open source for somebody to actually learn how it works and actually fix it. And then we make it overly complicated do you really need Wi-Fi. Seems like configuration to be done over Bluetooth build that in and then saw the dongle for Wi-Fi if you want centralized management. Of course I don't know how well Wi-Fi is gonna work through a metal box but hey. People think I'm crazy for running ethernet cables and plugging in everything that can be plugged in you're already running power and thermostat why not ether net. But then that makes everything into a crazy coordination struggle with IT as well..
You are 100% correct about this economizer set up, it’s not going to survive the airstream, and most will become disconnected just like the old days. I don’t think the design engineers have a good grasp on the real world conditions these have to function in. Thanks
They put the expensive module where nature can turn it into a brick. It's no wonder that the dampers are cracked open and left there when the gadgets fail. Nobody wants to spend the money on something that fails in a couple of years.
Manufacturers should be sending their engineers to the field occasionally for some real world experience. Lot of other industries do that.
@@jesusismful 100% engineers should spend time in the field to see the application of the parts they design
I would like to see what the device looks like a year or two years from now. They can build it to survive in those conditions. And for certain sensors it absolutely makes sense to put it in that place. I just wonder if then a disconnected sensor module would make more sense, allowing the main module to be tucked away where it does get less dirt and dust, and possibly moisture. I do not assume it would be exposed to direct rainwater, unless the thing gets right into a hurricane with the economiser open, but hey, even that could happen in other places.
I bet over time this thing may not get disconnected, but it will be well covered in dirt and grime, and I suspect on the connectors, especially in places with higher humidity, corrosion would become an issue.
@@jesusismful Most of the time it's the damn managment/ bean counters that zero engineering skills that f things up.
"Smart" appliances that require an app to work properly need to stop.
Honestly I prefer an app but it still needs to be easy to use
@HVACRVIDEOS at least the app for the Lennox Core is way easier to use and set up the unit....not like this POS
At the minimum if it's required to connect with it, should come with a direct WiFi already installed, to make it removable probably cost just as much. Just a way for them to sell you something extra.
Locally hosted web portal would be better than an app
Software devs or whoever is on top of them riding them trying to joust each other have earned my ire. They are going to start my villain arc someday...
But in all seriousness, I am not that old and I have no idea who they think they are designing these apps for. Every human I have seen use on of these newer generation apps has the same difficulties. No matter the age they are.
Correct way to fix it is to leave the jumper plug in and not use the economizer at all. I Hate economizers. Always causing problems.
The Honeywell Jade controllers are my favorite. Even despite the random temp sensor failures. Easy to set up and affordable too
And the display failures!!!
Display is there, but can't read it.
Engineers have to stay relevant and constantly change things. Sales wants to have more SKUs to sell. Both don't spend a day in the field and quasi ignore customer feedback via Service.. That Econo control location was ludicrous. You would think DIP switch verify would be a factory commission tick box. Great job on patience and perseverance Chris!
20:21 That's actually a good idea to rely more on pictures then voice, (especially if their call center is EASL). I've lost count how many times doing tech support for my Pops (70+) & his friends and just wind up being baffled by the words they use to describe the issue at hand. Unless there isn't any other option I refuse for the sake of the sanity of everyone involved to do troubleshooting by phone alone. I request pictures as S.O.P. and if possible request video conference via Signal.
Your tech had his leads backwards when initially checking phase rotation. Black lead goes on L1, red moves between L2 and L3. It was probably ok when you initially checked it.
I think the reason for the dongle, is most likely security. If the wifi is built in, anyone can go mess with the economizer. if you need an external attachment, then it's less likely someone is going to mess with it. Think of patrons with the app messing with the a/c settings in a random location.
During setup, you could be forced to change passwords or wifi password. This would cut this out .
@@leonphelps123true but you can still hacked into it if you know how.
on the same token, a wifi dongle should be $20 or less, not $100.
@@leonphelps123 But still leaves the (highly likely) possibility of a bug in the software which would allow people to attack it anyway. Plus people choose obvious passwords.
I'd rather a USB cord over WiFi anyway, yeah it's an extra cord, but removes having specialized things for just 1
Its nice they take something simple and make it far more complicated than it needs to be . Carrier is the master of "value added" complication.
the 80's were such a perfect time for HVAC .. why did they need to over complicate something that had always worked.
you can thank the epa for that
Ever since you taught me about the loosen tighten on the power lugs and set screws I use it for tightening Whirlpools refrigerator handle set screws. It keeps the handles from coming loose. Good tip for many applications.
I wonder why they are playing around with improper fasteners. A hex or torx head fastener is a way more reliable way to ensure proper faster pressure.
@@leonphelps123 that's what they use they or their machine don't know how to tighten them correctly.
No more blower motor and belt drive ?
Carrier's new slogan "1..2..3..., Please Don't Blow Up"
The manufacturers:
Oh yeah!
Well now and just because of your winning we are going up an extra notch to make it even more difficult!!
Same controller in Lennox. I walked away from it
These controllers are a result of bms systems that kitchens use unless its in a hospital, high rise, or network. Most of these places use controls like Siemens and are easily tied in to the bms system where you have an engineer do the programming. The capabilities of this controller is beyond the jade. Doesnt make it easier to navigate and use. Carrier just probably had to many orders with this controller and determined to get rid of the honewell unless asked specifically.
Just disconnect the linkage and screw it closed forever.
They said "computers will make your life easier" I'm still waiting 😮
Educating the industry?? They don’t even know. Called tech support on a brand new rtu that said call tech support for wiring diagram. And hooked up and tested smoke detector that had a comp high pressure alarm on board. Even York stopped putting economizer modules in outside air
Oh man.....what is the point of making the economizer that difficult to set up. Belimo Zip is by far and away the easiest and best econ module to set up, use and test with....this stuff is getting out of control with all this energy efficiency crap, computer controlled mumbo jumbo. Bring back the old 7212 😄😄😄😄
I think the goal will be Remote Energy Management to configure and monitor Title 24 compliance?
Best line I've ever heard from a tradesman... "You gotta do math! It's just dumb." 😂
It's the same in the appliance field certain manufacturers have updates for fixes that either need a module to update,a technician with their internet diagnostic tool , and one that'll automatically update if the homeowner has it connected to WiFi. You shouldn't have to pay a service fee to a company to update an appliance they already paid for when they can send an update over the Internet. Plus the manufacturers that have to have a diagnostic tool for a huge subscription cost just to be able to work on their appliances. All to save costs and make money.
Hazarding a guess, one of those appliance service technician subscription services is "SmartHQ Service", formerly GE NewFi?
Though I'm not an official appliance repair person, I try to learn how to take care of and troubleshoot the appliances in my own home. Getting a cooktop with WiFi (not intentionally sought out), only to find out the service mode is locked behind an app was a disappointment.
Chris, I get it, I ranted about that 23 years ago, on the shit setups on Economizers back in 2000. I always said if it is a 7-ton or larger commercial unit only make the things with built-in economizers right from the factory that are built into the equipment and pice them so companies would not try to go cheap with after-market crap that never seem to work right or brakes down all the time from shit concepts and bad parts. Plus if the silly thing is not working right, how is that economizing shit in fact it wastes energy and lowers the efficacy of the equipment. Oh man, I am like you, you get me started and the rant on just dumb ideas from manufacturers I could go on for hours. lol
That’s crazy. I deal with very few economizers in the few light commercial jobs I do. A few years ago we did a field installed Ruud Economizer on a new unit. That Honeywell controller works amazingly, I’ve also done new Trane field installed economizer that are just stupid to install then there is zero information how to set those thing up, I have one that I’ve never figured out.
I recently installed some Greenheck exh fans that didn’t behave properly on startup. After investigating, you had to download an app and scan a QR code to link the fan to the app via Bluetooth. Once connected and configured it worked fine, and the app and setup worked great, but it seems unnecessarily complicated for what could have been a fan with a rheostat. And these things are not easy to access, being 20’ off the ground on a sidewall. At this point it’s been 4 months and the fan already forgot it’s programming once.
My non-hvac opinion on the economiser: the app should have a calculator built in. The unit itself do not have to have one. But put the calculator on the app! Can be a simple button to swap units or something.
love the video.
i am reminded of a saying from one of the trek movies.
the more complected you make the pluming the easier it is to stop up the drain.
Good luck getting that wifi stick to work when that usb port is caked with grease in 10 years. And as much as I think having bulk setting tools are useful I question if that app will be available 10 years from now or be maintained to work with newer devices.
“You gotta do math and it’s just dumb” needs to be on a t shirt if it isn’t already
He checked for backwards rotation just based on the noise? I was really hoping to learn how to verify correct phase order but wasn’t expecting that.
Hi Chris, is it possible the RTU you received was some kind of ex-demo unit for the economizer? It really does not make sense having a control module in such a location, especially one that is vented like that. It's just waiting for moisture and badness to enter and destroy it. To my mind, such controllers should be with the rest of the control gear in a safe place. Like you say, the manufacturers need to get their act together.
This is why I'm a big fan of open-source and open standards. From what I've seen, the HVAC industry (and construction) need a lot more such standards. In an ideal world the package unit could be pre-wired for an economizer because their would be open standards for connectors and pinouts, etc, that everyone could follow without having to pay licensing royalties and such like. It would become manufacturer-agnostic with the same wiring but the ability to use hardware from any manufacturer and it will just work.
You look like you've been really busy recently and maybe not sleeping as well as you have. I hope you get chance to recover. Good health to you, Chris!
With the location of the economizer module, either it's for convenience (which may be a primary reason-the reason they want you to know), or (most likely a reasoning at the upper corporate level where the CEOs/CFOs/CPOs/etc are) planned obsolescence. I bet you it's probably going to be the latter.
The needlessly "modern" wifi stuff makes me feel embarassed for my country, where Siemens is from. Yeah, I get it. It's suppose to make it easier and everything, but sometimes just having a thing work "the known way" is miles better than trying to come up with a highly sophisticated solution "because we have the technology". Just look at the time it takes for every screen to supposedly connect and read live data. That was like ten seconds and above. Oh jeez. As a software developer I know that there was just too much of a communication gap between out in the "field" and the "office".
yea carrier has gone down hill in my opinion , we stopped using them an switched over to york. there se board is user friendly an they have a good class on it also.
Al the smart shit is not smart, and to expensive. I work with heatpumps ground source. Old stuff is great 🎉🎉🎉
In my opinion here is a dumb economizer question: "Do you want an economizer?" And here is the smart answer: "No"
Actually I think it might be OK out in the desert where the humidity is low. But in my area all it does is pump wet air inside and water condenses on my computers. And it starts raining from the ceiling tiles.
homie needs to switch his leads around when doing phase rotation checks. L1/COM/Black lead, +/L2/L3/ Red lead
Hi i work for a school district in florida and we are having a hard time with carrier units, they put all this electronic controls which is so stupid. I.m not a hvac tech but i see my guys struggle with this and we ran into problems even with lead times on new units between 7 to 9 months! We had a rep from daikin come down and he can get us units in 3 months. Getting back to the problem with all the electronic displays and seimens controls its really not needed just more to go wrong.
Honestly you spent way to much time on it. They have to understand who there audience is. Technicians like us dont have the patience and skills to set these complicated economizers up properly. We can fix just about anything and everything and have that skill, and the ones who can set these economizers up and do all that math are usually shitty techs lol
Return DB air minus 2-4 degrees is fine for economizer in our climate.
Carrier should be setting up everything to at least function or provide instructions to get you there. smh.