00:00:00 Intro 00:25:53 Stevenator's take: for the first time in his career, Blaber is not a top 3 jungler in LCS 00:40:18 Gambirino's take: Quid has made a strong case to be rookie of the split if eligible 00:54:03 dctheking asks Revenge for a donezo manifesto - best and worst teammates, etc. 01:18:01 sandytoes' take: LCS is stabilizing 01:42:20 Travis asks Revenge if he'd encourage new players to try and go pro 02:00:10 Polowy asks Revenge how important Academy teams are to LCS teams in terms of practice 02:07:23 ZePaladin's take: LCS downsize gives rookies a chance to stand out 02:14:20 tuft REALLY misses the analyst desk 02:24:50 Dr. Nollie asks Revenge how honest players are with one another 02:34:48 Outro
@@Musikcheckerpro we've always done questions for shows like this where we have a guest on where it makes sense for people to be curious about stuff, vs when we just have someone who is acting as a guest cohost
Great episode. Loving Revenges honest opinion of the LCS. Just a bit over half way through atm and want to thank him on this. The mental health part was great! My heart goes out to all these players and what they deal with on a daily basis - the pressure, the drive, the criticism - all of it is tough!
Lets do some math assuming $100'000 income California income tax: $3,009.40 + 9.3% of the excess over $68,35 = $5,557 Federal income tax: $5,426 + 22% of excess over $47,150 = $14,260 After tax income: $80,183 Subtract rent of $3,000 / month = $44,183 Subtract $60 / day on food (~$1,800 / month) = $22,283 (generously assuming the same food rate applies in off seasons) Subtract $30 / day transportation (~ $900 / month) = $11,333 (again assuming transportation needed for 365 days) So in a year that's $11,333 to left for entertainment, clothing, additional travel (such as to visit family in off season), savings, etc. By no means is that nothing. However, given the working hours, the high risk associated with job security, the amount of unpaid/underpaid work you need to put in to get the job in the first place, and the lack of career options afterward its definitely by no means the most profitable career path.
Bro 60$ a day on food??? 30$ a day on transportation????? That’s 2700$ a month on food and transportation. Let that sink in, that’s almost as much as rent 💀 this is also not including 401k, health insurance, utilities and other bills. Good attempt but I would not seek you out for budgeting tips.
You can live on less than $60 buying already made stuff from sams club or cosco, even delivery every now and then. If you are wasting more than that for 1 person you are grossly overweight or the kind of person that spends 20 dollars on a milkshake.
I agree that no analyst desk wasn’t a great move. I highly enjoyed the analyst desk and breakdowns of the game. Add in only 4 games now and the whole show is just super quick.
When RazBot started around the 1:32:40 mark and then his picture appeared in the most meme way possible I actually spit my drink out on my keyboard at work. Tears. 😂
Been watching the show now for over a year and this may be the best one I've ever seen. Revenge having passionate, logical explanations of what players go through kept me on the edge of my seat.
The only support they had for 1.5 years was Destiny so it has to be him. Before him was Hakuho but Hakuho got replaced by Destiny before Dardoch started coaching. After Destiny was IgNar who he said he loved so it has to be Destiny.
I think the biggest success of this split has been the Players format. This Travis Gafford guy really was on to something there. But seriously, having 1-2 new-to-LCS players with one well-known player really does make magic happen. I'm specifically thinking about when Huhi offered to teach UmTi how to make kimchee. I had no idea who UmTi was, but seeing his excitement over learning how to make kimchee INSTANTLY made me a fan.
02:14:20 I feel with tuft on missing some of the analysis. I wish that, rather than doing an interview after every game, they'd do breakdowns of key moments with that player (like they did a couple times last year).
Enjoyed this episode a lot! Revenge had a lot of clip moments lol. But as someone who recently moved out to silicon valley with an apartment 10 minutes from Google (so the cost of living is even higher than LA) dude is just plain incorrect on that salary take. As long as you're not an idiot, 100k is way more than enough too live off of. 60k is enough. Hell, I assume the team arranges travel and if you're really so busy from the schedule you shouldn't be going out much, so 50k is probably enough. Get a reasonably priced apartment instead of the first one that comes up when you search, don't be too extravagant with what food you deliver.. it's not hard. I make 80k a year before taxes, and I throw a quarter of my paycheck into savings accounts iras etc, and I still live comfortably. I have no idea where this notion that you need a multiple six figure salary to even scrape by in these parts of CA came from but they're just... wrong. I agree that the skills one gets from playing league of legends doesn't transfer over to anything else but I kind of thought that was the point. It's a sport you take a gamble on, and if it doesn't pay off you go back to school....... kinda exactly what you did, Revenge. Rest of the episode was great, just that one tangent irked me since it was blatantly wrong.
Loved this episode! Couldnt belive the praise revenge gave to jojo i would have never guessed that! Also, guys, Bwipo is the perfect example of what LCS needs if they ever want to elevate themselves as a region. The issue competitively is that we have too little Bwipo's in the league. He knows peak competitiveness and he knows what to expect from himself and his teammates if they want to succeed
Listened to the podcast, and had to open the vod to see the reactions of some of these takes. Absolutely fantastic episode. Thanks for the content guys.
(Prefacing with i dont actually mind just curious) wouldnt it better to write a blanket paragraph script for cubby for the intro to this being a call in show, how to call in, where to go, etc.
@@Cubbyxxhave u ever thought about doing something called The Cubby ? Saw cubby's corner and it occurred to me that a cubby is already kinda a corner on its own 🤣
Long Time watcher of your content. You do an excellent job of covering all of the complex issues in the space. I really appreciate the transparency and depth of connection to the scene you provide. Keep being awesome ❤
00:16:05 Yeah that was partially my point that I was trying to get at in the comment section of the last Hotline League episode. Domestic players are competing for spots with imports for smaller salaries and they don't even have a tier 2 league to compete in. If you're 18 and don't get a spot in the LCS, what are your options if you're an aspiring pro? If you don't get a team in the offseason as a veteran player, how long can you afford to sit on the sidelines? Can you even reenter the league if you had a little bit of a slump? In the last video I was making this point in regard to an Americas league, in which this problem becomes even more egregious.
A point that is ignored that while viewership may not have increased one can easily say they it could have dropped and dropped a lot more if they would have stayed on the weekdays.
It's such a massive shame that Revenge is leaving this scene. Glad we got to see him on this episode, sucks it's probably the last time we get to see him in the League space
Just wanted to add a small piece and my perspective on mental health: There is no qualifying criteria for what is 'objectively stressful'. As a 15 year old with no responsibilities, I would have a panic attack when asked to take the garbage out to the curb because I was afraid that a stranger would judge me and I would never have the opportunity to correct that opinion. Fast forward 20 years, after many years of therapy and learning how to take care of myself, I was managing a team of 50 people as the top creative say on a $50 million project, working 80 hours a week, taking care of my family and coordinating my grandmothers funeral, and it was not even a fraction of the stress I felt daily as a 15 year old. You can judge people for feeling 'unwarranted' stress, but that doesn't help the person get over it. It also doesn't benefit you for holding the judgement. It was only when I was able to accept the fact that I was always trying my best and that other folks' perspectives were just trash in my way, that I was able to discover that not only do I excel under pressure, but that I can model and teach others skills of resiliency and leadership. Juts a couple of cents. Cheers!
What an absolutely amazing episode. Loved every second of it, thanks to all involved. Also sad I didn't really know about Revenge much beforehand because I didn't follow LCS as much, definitely seems like a player I would have been a big fan of.
We will be missing an amazing personality in the league space. Thank you, Mohamed Kaddoura "Revenge," for the time you spent in the LCS, and I wish you nothing but the best in all you do!
Great episode. I suggest that Travis and Cubby try to change some element of the show to prevent it feeling like Cubby is just supposed to directly fit the MarkZ mold. I am concerned that Travis won't continue to enjoy doing the show if he tries to fit Cubby into the exact formula that he and MarkZ used, such as the brief media talk before the show starts. Maybe making a change will help keep it fresh for Travis and give Cubby more autonomy and influence as a co-host. Long time fan, and making the suggestion as someone who sincerely enjoys this show.
Totally agree, Bo2s were done back when the LEC was the EULCS (if I remember correctly, the NALCS went to Bo3 on two different Twitch channels back then, and the EULCS went to Bo2 before going to Bo3 the next season) and if Bo3 would be too big of a "lift" for the production, then at least with 2 less teams than other regions, we should look at the option of Bo2.
I prefer Bo3, personally, but I'd love Bo2's if we could get them. I don't really understand why people would find them "unsatisfying" tbh. Like, sure, you might get a draw, but that just sets up hype for rematches later imo. It's exciting when two teams can trade blow-for-blow
Great episode! Just wanted to say to Revenge that I'm a 4th year medical student about to graduate and that you got this shit man! DM's open if there is anything I could do to help. Its rare that my hobbies and profession have any cross-over.
my issue with saying that spring viewership hasnt drastically shot back up now that we are back to weekends, is that, the hit to move to weekdays may have lost a bunch of viewers in the process.
Travis: I need to end the show my guests are being kept late! Every guest: 'nah, im good lets go' Travis: okay, we need to speed run these, lets go! Revenge: its my fault, im good bro. Travis: *tapping table* NEXT CALLER! HURRY UP! LETS GO! 🤣🤣
I chilled out after Revenge and Raz said they were cool, but I do try and keep the show from looking so long that people are turned off from watching. I realize many shows are 3+ hours long in the space, but standard podcast stuff is 1-2 hours and I think that's what the casual person would prefer to watch.
I wouldve been down for Revenge to keep going. We're already going long here and I understand moderating, but we have Revenge here in his exit interview essentially. Settle in
Hey @TravisGafford. Upon Revenge's point on players not having options in life if they fail at LCS... did people realize that to create a self sustaining product, you need to have a balance between cultivating talent and importing talent, whether it be in coaching, players, or even on Riot's side? Please share your insights. Much appreciate your content and passion to the NA scene of LoL esports.
I have to say it as an Econ major... More teams will not increase salaries. It would actually decrease salaries because there is less money to be spent. The less teams the better from a salaries perspective. Secondly: I think an America's league is the best option. It will increase revenue for the single league (most likely decrease overall revenue between all the regions that combine but that isn't known 100%). This will in turn "kick out players" that are lower tier but the positives are massive! It would 1) increase revenue 2) increase player salaries 3) have teams that are based in certain regions. I can see it now, East Coast vs West, Canada vs Brazil, etc, etc. 4) similar to point 3, this will massively increase fandom! 5) all the other positive reasons I haven't stated
revenge has such a real take tbh. though the moving the lcs away from la has to be a good take. if the business can't rake in that much and you're currently cutting down. it only makes sense from a governance pov to have everyone relocate to match the cost of this limited growth
Revenge is a perfect example of how much ego LCS players have. Not saying pros and aspiring pros or anyone with aspirations are wasting their time or don’t put in work, rather, esports as a whole is very young and comparing it to traditional sports is unrealistic, so is salary and production expectations.
Lol it's because he chose it over med school and plans on going back, he had to give up scholarships to play so he actually has to leverage that future over playing LCS @@Ryan-hc2vz
Travis's Question about the young player deciding to go pro was money. People ask me all the time if they should get into what I do for a living and I don't lie to them. I tell it like it is. It's not for everyone.
Revenge really put my perspective on the financial struggles of pro play (league). I’m wondering why Riot doesn’t invest in areas that cost much less than LA.
I mean, regardless it is a 'good wage' for these kids going straight out of high school. But it REALLY depends what the teams charged them for. If they were living in the team house, getting free food/workouts/living all that time, and only had to worry about their life off season? That could go a long way. But I imagine most of them spent away their nest egg and now need to focus on their next career..
I don't think a lot of people are saying 100k is a lot of money in California. I think saying 100k in cali is unlivable is a bit much tho. The way Revenge is explaining his point just seems a bit out of touch. Since you do not need to spend your money on doordash everyday and can share an apt with your teammates which can bring down your rent significantly. I think being a person out of high school/early twenties 100k is a livable salary. It is not like the lcs is bringing in a million viewers every weekend to justify a higher salary for these pro player especially if you are a bottom/mid tier player.
100k is more than livable. i don't know how it is in SF, heard it's the worst there but in los angeles, 100k even with door dash every day will let you save up like 5k a month. rent isn't that bad (most single people in their 20s are probably paying like 2k for something modest), 5k for a nice house in a nice neighborhood to rent but that's more for families. if they're living with roommates and avoiding things like door dash, they're saving the majority of their paycheck, which is crazy for young people. and wages (and expenses) aren't that much higher in cali (outside of SF) compared to the rest of the country. it's mostly rent but for young people, los angeles is easier to manage than most cities like SF, NYC etc.
It makes for a great show when the host is rushing every single caller and reminding you he doesn't want to be there for too long. Couldn't you just type this to your co-host?
@@TravisGaffordTravis I agree that you have a habit of rushing callers and takes, and losing patience. It seems that sentiment is repeated in the comments. I’m not sure at what point the opinion becomes factual. I’m a weekly watcher and supporter not trying to dog on you, just help you build self awareness over it to see if it’s something you can address in the future.
weird how one thing is common in all the esport failures... franchising. Its almost like forcing teams to pay exorbitant amounts of money to buy in and then spend exorbitant amounts of money on players, home bases, all of those things doesnt lead to a great product. Cod, Overwatch, League etc. All failing/failed as soon as the hype died off from franchising.
1. I think 8 teams is more sustainable and more realistic, 2. I think it's fine that only ultra talented players will risk it all for LCS, because giving prospect players 100K salaries on tier 2 leagues while they shoot their shot is just not realistic/sustainable for LCS. let's be real. In europe players play semi-pro part time while working/studying in regional leagues. If a player seems promising then he is incentivized to go full on pro but if he doesnt show that talent from playing part time, then the ecosystem sadly cannot accomodate him Also tier 2 should be completely remote to allow players to play without having to relocate to the most expensive state Also LCS/orgs should look to normalize the team office as the main living space of the pro, that would cut a lot of costs and will allow orgs to pay lower salaries and save money. The team can be responsible for at least 2 meals a day if not for housing (like in the past).
I both agree and disagree with Revenge's comment about 100k not being enough. I think the way he laid out his expenses is kind of ridiculous. You don't need to get a 3k apartment, get food delivered every meal, or uber everywhere. Saying that you do, then cry that 100k is not enough , is ridiculous. But there is a nugget of truth here that NA, or at least Americans, will never be able field a true talent. Because a truly smart and talented American does not see the LCS as a legitimate career path, when that person can just be a doctor, a lawyer, sports athelets, SWE, etc.etc. instead. We will never have our Faker, because the potential Fakers in out region have chosen other careers.
Los Angeles is one of the most expensive places to live in the US so rent at $3k may not be completely unreasonable for a safe area of the city. Also keep in mind that $9000 of that salary goes right to California for income taxes. Another $20-25,000 goes to the Federal Government as well. Sales taxes are between 8-11% depending on the county. Electricity in California is some of the most expensive in the US because they shutdown a significant number of their power generating stations and import power from neighboring states. They also pay more for other utilities like water. Uber means he doesn't have to pay for a car and car insurance which is some of the worst in the country and LA is notorious for not having public transportation for huge swaths of the city or the ability to walk anywhere because it's built around cars. Uber may actually be a reasonable option and if it's not then he's going to be in a taxi and that's not much better. The are very, very good reasons why people clamor for Riot to move the LCS out of LA to a city that is cheaper to live in and closer to the servers in Chicago. Everything about LA makes the costs of doing business in the city so much higher. Unless you live in New York or San Francisco, you aren't getting a realistic idea of the costs. Go look up a cost of living conversion from where you live to LA. It's eye watering.
Gotta be Destiny. Dardoch only started coaching when Destiny was the support. Before Destiny was Hakuho but Dardoch wasn’t coaching. IgNar came after Destiny, but he said he loved IgNar so it’s gotta be Destiny.
Can confirm Raz's point. I stopped watching last year due to the time change and now I feel literally zero drive to watch on the weekends. I can better spend my time with my significant other or just doing other adult things. People dont come back and thats a permanent loss.
Revenge is so on point about mental health. Anyone saying that they know what these kids need, without being part of their DAILY lives, is so presumptuous and immature. Such an arrogant and nonsensical take. Of course every ~20 year old needs support from elders who can provide perspective and advice about the long term. However, to presume it’s what these kids need more than a competition therapist is so immature.
Revenge is bitching about making 100k a year meanwhile service members make 30k a year work as long if not longer and live in these super expensive areas
I know nobody gives a shit about this, and I fully expect some edgelord comment throwing the word at me, but to Travis’s editor: Thank you for cutting the r-slur from this recording. Being autistic/ADHD in this world is tiring enough, and hearing that word get thrown around casually always makes the gaming world feel less inclusive. Not having to hear it made my listening experience better. Thank you.
The ego on this guy. Played LCS for 2 seasons on the last place teams. "Watching C9's downfall" GTFO bud. Someone is mad they didn't get picked up. Liquipedia/lolfandom shows ONLY ONE 3rd place win over entire career on Jojo's team. Other than that 8-10th place every split.
Dude making a 100k in the part of LA they live in is like making 65k in the Midwest with very little upwards movement you people are so fucking ignorant
Revenge's case is definitely unique if he has freaking medical school lined up for him.. but 100k in LA is definitely liveable. 3k apartment exists, but only if you want to live by yourself in an amazing area. You can find apartments elsewhere for cheaper, and maybe with a roommate. 1.5k-2k is not unheard of. Take out: yeah he is entitled to believe he can just do take out every day, for 60 dollars a day. If you do that you deserve to be poor. Uber: the LCS studio is near the train station, he can totally use public transportation. If he doesn't even consider that an option that feels pretty entitled.
I don't know man, Revenge did specify that it was in California with having the players have to pay for their own housing and food. Given that context, it isn't as much as say $100k in Pennsylvania. It's not like California rural area, it's near downtown LA with its state tax, sales tax, and having to pay for their own housing and food, unlike in the past where both housing and food was provided (thus subsiding a huge proportion of cost). The players are also geolocked since they have to be close to the studio as well. You can say that they should be able to transport themselves by having a car etc. But now they have to pay for transportation and maintenence fees for the car, all in California no less. He goes into way more detail and context and it seems reasonable from his perspective.
![เปิดใจ “ต้นหอม ศกุนตลา” หลังโดนพาดพิงธุรกิจที่เคยทำ และผลกระทบทำถูกปลดฟ้าผ่า! | แฉ 24 ต.ค.67 [2/3]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/vCi5OIqlxaE/mqdefault.jpg)
00:00:00 Intro
00:25:53 Stevenator's take: for the first time in his career, Blaber is not a top 3 jungler in LCS
00:40:18 Gambirino's take: Quid has made a strong case to be rookie of the split if eligible
00:54:03 dctheking asks Revenge for a donezo manifesto - best and worst teammates, etc.
01:18:01 sandytoes' take: LCS is stabilizing
01:42:20 Travis asks Revenge if he'd encourage new players to try and go pro
02:00:10 Polowy asks Revenge how important Academy teams are to LCS teams in terms of practice
02:07:23 ZePaladin's take: LCS downsize gives rookies a chance to stand out
02:14:20 tuft REALLY misses the analyst desk
02:24:50 Dr. Nollie asks Revenge how honest players are with one another
02:34:48 Outro
@TravisGafford : Is it a conscious decision that the show is more accepting of questions instead of just takes now?
@@Musikcheckerpro we've always done questions for shows like this where we have a guest on where it makes sense for people to be curious about stuff, vs when we just have someone who is acting as a guest cohost
@@TravisGafford thanks. I am looving the 2-guest episodes ❤️
Great episode. Loving Revenges honest opinion of the LCS. Just a bit over half way through atm and want to thank him on this. The mental health part was great! My heart goes out to all these players and what they deal with on a daily basis - the pressure, the drive, the criticism - all of it is tough!
This is peak HLL. One of the best episodes ever.
Lets do some math assuming $100'000 income
California income tax: $3,009.40 + 9.3% of the excess over $68,35 = $5,557
Federal income tax: $5,426 + 22% of excess over $47,150 = $14,260
After tax income: $80,183
Subtract rent of $3,000 / month = $44,183
Subtract $60 / day on food (~$1,800 / month) = $22,283 (generously assuming the same food rate applies in off seasons)
Subtract $30 / day transportation (~ $900 / month) = $11,333 (again assuming transportation needed for 365 days)
So in a year that's $11,333 to left for entertainment, clothing, additional travel (such as to visit family in off season), savings, etc.
By no means is that nothing. However, given the working hours, the high risk associated with job security, the amount of unpaid/underpaid work you need to put in to get the job in the first place, and the lack of career options afterward its definitely by no means the most profitable career path.
Might be a bit generous too, utilities, travel expenses for non LA events, etc. could get you pretty close to almost nothing
This is also living by yourself.
Bro 60$ a day on food??? 30$ a day on transportation????? That’s 2700$ a month on food and transportation. Let that sink in, that’s almost as much as rent 💀 this is also not including 401k, health insurance, utilities and other bills. Good attempt but I would not seek you out for budgeting tips.
lmao 60 on food? what are you eating ramen packs?
You can live on less than $60 buying already made stuff from sams club or cosco, even delivery every now and then. If you are wasting more than that for 1 person you are grossly overweight or the kind of person that spends 20 dollars on a milkshake.
I agree that no analyst desk wasn’t a great move. I highly enjoyed the analyst desk and breakdowns of the game. Add in only 4 games now and the whole show is just super quick.
1:01:30 Loved Revenge’s take on a coaches’ role to lead a team and the necessary intangible qualities. Makes you wonder why KC fired Yamato
There might be some of the redacted words revenge called GMs in KC upper management but who knows!
Cause it was an ez scapegoat and he isnt french
Yep, look at nfl coaches. Some of them aren’t always the strategists, they’re are leaders with assistant coaches who are the strategic type
When RazBot started around the 1:32:40 mark and then his picture appeared in the most meme way possible I actually spit my drink out on my keyboard at work. Tears. 😂
Imaging Dardoch going: “Damn, that’s toxic” had me rolling lmao 😂
Been watching the show now for over a year and this may be the best one I've ever seen. Revenge having passionate, logical explanations of what players go through kept me on the edge of my seat.
Support in question at 1:05:00 could be Destiny cause he mentioned dardoch as coach and that was around 2021-2022. He's also retired.
The only support they had for 1.5 years was Destiny so it has to be him. Before him was Hakuho but Hakuho got replaced by Destiny before Dardoch started coaching. After Destiny was IgNar who he said he loved so it has to be Destiny.
I think the biggest success of this split has been the Players format. This Travis Gafford guy really was on to something there.
But seriously, having 1-2 new-to-LCS players with one well-known player really does make magic happen. I'm specifically thinking about when Huhi offered to teach UmTi how to make kimchee. I had no idea who UmTi was, but seeing his excitement over learning how to make kimchee INSTANTLY made me a fan.
02:14:20 I feel with tuft on missing some of the analysis. I wish that, rather than doing an interview after every game, they'd do breakdowns of key moments with that player (like they did a couple times last year).
Enjoyed this episode a lot! Revenge had a lot of clip moments lol.
But as someone who recently moved out to silicon valley with an apartment 10 minutes from Google (so the cost of living is even higher than LA) dude is just plain incorrect on that salary take.
As long as you're not an idiot, 100k is way more than enough too live off of. 60k is enough. Hell, I assume the team arranges travel and if you're really so busy from the schedule you shouldn't be going out much, so 50k is probably enough. Get a reasonably priced apartment instead of the first one that comes up when you search, don't be too extravagant with what food you deliver.. it's not hard.
I make 80k a year before taxes, and I throw a quarter of my paycheck into savings accounts iras etc, and I still live comfortably. I have no idea where this notion that you need a multiple six figure salary to even scrape by in these parts of CA came from but they're just... wrong.
I agree that the skills one gets from playing league of legends doesn't transfer over to anything else but I kind of thought that was the point. It's a sport you take a gamble on, and if it doesn't pay off you go back to school....... kinda exactly what you did, Revenge.
Rest of the episode was great, just that one tangent irked me since it was blatantly wrong.
“I don’t want this to be a 3 hour episode” 😂
Loved this episode! Couldnt belive the praise revenge gave to jojo i would have never guessed that! Also, guys, Bwipo is the perfect example of what LCS needs if they ever want to elevate themselves as a region. The issue competitively is that we have too little Bwipo's in the league. He knows peak competitiveness and he knows what to expect from himself and his teammates if they want to succeed
Listened to the podcast, and had to open the vod to see the reactions of some of these takes. Absolutely fantastic episode. Thanks for the content guys.
(Prefacing with i dont actually mind just curious) wouldnt it better to write a blanket paragraph script for cubby for the intro to this being a call in show, how to call in, where to go, etc.
He's gettin' there! It's been barely a handful of episodes.
Ya but then fans can’t enjoy watching me sweat it out
@@Cubbyxxhave u ever thought about doing something called The Cubby ? Saw cubby's corner and it occurred to me that a cubby is already kinda a corner on its own 🤣
Really cool to hear Revenge talk about coaches and player mentality from behind the scenes.
Long Time watcher of your content. You do an excellent job of covering all of the complex issues in the space. I really appreciate the transparency and depth of connection to the scene you provide. Keep being awesome ❤
00:16:05 Yeah that was partially my point that I was trying to get at in the comment section of the last Hotline League episode. Domestic players are competing for spots with imports for smaller salaries and they don't even have a tier 2 league to compete in. If you're 18 and don't get a spot in the LCS, what are your options if you're an aspiring pro? If you don't get a team in the offseason as a veteran player, how long can you afford to sit on the sidelines? Can you even reenter the league if you had a little bit of a slump?
In the last video I was making this point in regard to an Americas league, in which this problem becomes even more egregious.
Fuck I'm gonna miss Revenge. He was the truth on his time at EG and he still got that fire in him to talk about league. Banger episode
finally a longer episode
BANGER EPISODE
Totally agree with tuft. Travis is right though, something Blane Game style from LCS talent would be a great way to get more of this.
Really enjoying the 2 guest episodes, and this was one of the best HHL episodes i've seen
A point that is ignored that while viewership may not have increased one can easily say they it could have dropped and dropped a lot more if they would have stayed on the weekdays.
It's such a massive shame that Revenge is leaving this scene. Glad we got to see him on this episode, sucks it's probably the last time we get to see him in the League space
This is prob one of the best episodes of hotline league tbh
Thank you Travis for this episode. Made my Tu-Th commutes great
Just wanted to add a small piece and my perspective on mental health:
There is no qualifying criteria for what is 'objectively stressful'.
As a 15 year old with no responsibilities, I would have a panic attack when asked to take the garbage out to the curb because I was afraid that a stranger would judge me and I would never have the opportunity to correct that opinion.
Fast forward 20 years, after many years of therapy and learning how to take care of myself, I was managing a team of 50 people as the top creative say on a $50 million project, working 80 hours a week, taking care of my family and coordinating my grandmothers funeral, and it was not even a fraction of the stress I felt daily as a 15 year old.
You can judge people for feeling 'unwarranted' stress, but that doesn't help the person get over it. It also doesn't benefit you for holding the judgement.
It was only when I was able to accept the fact that I was always trying my best and that other folks' perspectives were just trash in my way, that I was able to discover that not only do I excel under pressure, but that I can model and teach others skills of resiliency and leadership.
Juts a couple of cents. Cheers!
What an absolutely amazing episode. Loved every second of it, thanks to all involved. Also sad I didn't really know about Revenge much beforehand because I didn't follow LCS as much, definitely seems like a player I would have been a big fan of.
We will be missing an amazing personality in the league space. Thank you, Mohamed Kaddoura "Revenge," for the time you spent in the LCS, and I wish you nothing but the best in all you do!
Anyone that watched live feel like sharing the gamer word that got bleeped from Revenge used when talking about GoldenGlue compared to GMs? 46:00
Is it an R word that rhymes with guarded?
@@ShwackerSwagyeah, I didn't watch live, but his lips are definitely dying that word.
@@ShwackerSwag I can confirm this was the word used, yes.
Great episode. I suggest that Travis and Cubby try to change some element of the show to prevent it feeling like Cubby is just supposed to directly fit the MarkZ mold. I am concerned that Travis won't continue to enjoy doing the show if he tries to fit Cubby into the exact formula that he and MarkZ used, such as the brief media talk before the show starts. Maybe making a change will help keep it fresh for Travis and give Cubby more autonomy and influence as a co-host. Long time fan, and making the suggestion as someone who sincerely enjoys this show.
Absolutely agree. I also feel like a change in the overall look of the show would do it some good
UmTi "NA players are good; but the format makes the region underperform internationally"
Ashley Kang
WE NEED Bo2's
Totally agree, Bo2s were done back when the LEC was the EULCS (if I remember correctly, the NALCS went to Bo3 on two different Twitch channels back then, and the EULCS went to Bo2 before going to Bo3 the next season) and if Bo3 would be too big of a "lift" for the production, then at least with 2 less teams than other regions, we should look at the option of Bo2.
I prefer Bo3, personally, but I'd love Bo2's if we could get them. I don't really understand why people would find them "unsatisfying" tbh. Like, sure, you might get a draw, but that just sets up hype for rematches later imo. It's exciting when two teams can trade blow-for-blow
If European viewership is a big part of the LCS then yes this is a good thing because Europeans love ties.
@@Hunter7023 Fact
Revenge is such a good speaker
I really hope the LCS keeps only 8 teams. The 3 hour LCS snack on Saturday and Sunday is so good.
Great episode! Just wanted to say to Revenge that I'm a 4th year medical student about to graduate and that you got this shit man! DM's open if there is anything I could do to help. Its rare that my hobbies and profession have any cross-over.
Excellent episode! Revenge was great. Sad to see him go.
my issue with saying that spring viewership hasnt drastically shot back up now that we are back to weekends, is that, the hit to move to weekdays may have lost a bunch of viewers in the process.
Love when there are two guests because then I wont have to hear Travis talk as much 😂
Travis: I need to end the show my guests are being kept late!
Every guest: 'nah, im good lets go'
Travis: okay, we need to speed run these, lets go!
Revenge: its my fault, im good bro.
Travis: *tapping table* NEXT CALLER! HURRY UP! LETS GO!
🤣🤣
I chilled out after Revenge and Raz said they were cool, but I do try and keep the show from looking so long that people are turned off from watching.
I realize many shows are 3+ hours long in the space, but standard podcast stuff is 1-2 hours and I think that's what the casual person would prefer to watch.
@@TravisGafford fair! I just thought it was a funny moment. I'm just happy for the content! 😁
I wouldve been down for Revenge to keep going. We're already going long here and I understand moderating, but we have Revenge here in his exit interview essentially. Settle in
Thanks for correcting Revenge's language and all the other things you do to try to help the community be respectful.
Thanks for the support
I love how raw and honest Revenge was in talking about the LCS. Thanks HLL!!!
Dude is garbage. Extremely short 2 year career. And disappointing results to say the least
Hey @TravisGafford. Upon Revenge's point on players not having options in life if they fail at LCS... did people realize that to create a self sustaining product, you need to have a balance between cultivating talent and importing talent, whether it be in coaching, players, or even on Riot's side? Please share your insights. Much appreciate your content and passion to the NA scene of LoL esports.
I have to say it as an Econ major... More teams will not increase salaries. It would actually decrease salaries because there is less money to be spent. The less teams the better from a salaries perspective.
Secondly: I think an America's league is the best option. It will increase revenue for the single league (most likely decrease overall revenue between all the regions that combine but that isn't known 100%). This will in turn "kick out players" that are lower tier but the positives are massive! It would 1) increase revenue 2) increase player salaries 3) have teams that are based in certain regions. I can see it now, East Coast vs West, Canada vs Brazil, etc, etc. 4) similar to point 3, this will massively increase fandom! 5) all the other positive reasons I haven't stated
As long as everyone on the show is down, I’d love if the show goes 3+ hours
Would it make sense to have a scrim with your academy roster where the group of 10 players is shuffled up to balance out the teams?
revenge has such a real take tbh. though the moving the lcs away from la has to be a good take. if the business can't rake in that much and you're currently cutting down. it only makes sense from a governance pov to have everyone relocate to match the cost of this limited growth
I loved my kia, love it even more now that they support the LCS!
Revenge is a perfect example of how much ego LCS players have. Not saying pros and aspiring pros or anyone with aspirations are wasting their time or don’t put in work, rather, esports as a whole is very young and comparing it to traditional sports is unrealistic, so is salary and production expectations.
Dude I can't stand listening to this airhead ego Revenge
Lol it's because he chose it over med school and plans on going back, he had to give up scholarships to play so he actually has to leverage that future over playing LCS @@Ryan-hc2vz
Travis's Question about the young player deciding to go pro was money. People ask me all the time if they should get into what I do for a living and I don't lie to them. I tell it like it is. It's not for everyone.
Revenge really put my perspective on the financial struggles of pro play (league). I’m wondering why Riot doesn’t invest in areas that cost much less than LA.
Anyone thinking 100k is a huge amount of money in California is hilarious.
Anywhere in the US honestly...
I mean, regardless it is a 'good wage' for these kids going straight out of high school. But it REALLY depends what the teams charged them for. If they were living in the team house, getting free food/workouts/living all that time, and only had to worry about their life off season? That could go a long way. But I imagine most of them spent away their nest egg and now need to focus on their next career..
@@tomwallen7271holy shit a good take in the comments
I don't think a lot of people are saying 100k is a lot of money in California. I think saying 100k in cali is unlivable is a bit much tho. The way Revenge is explaining his point just seems a bit out of touch. Since you do not need to spend your money on doordash everyday and can share an apt with your teammates which can bring down your rent significantly. I think being a person out of high school/early twenties 100k is a livable salary. It is not like the lcs is bringing in a million viewers every weekend to justify a higher salary for these pro player especially if you are a bottom/mid tier player.
100k is more than livable. i don't know how it is in SF, heard it's the worst there but in los angeles, 100k even with door dash every day will let you save up like 5k a month. rent isn't that bad (most single people in their 20s are probably paying like 2k for something modest), 5k for a nice house in a nice neighborhood to rent but that's more for families. if they're living with roommates and avoiding things like door dash, they're saving the majority of their paycheck, which is crazy for young people.
and wages (and expenses) aren't that much higher in cali (outside of SF) compared to the rest of the country. it's mostly rent but for young people, los angeles is easier to manage than most cities like SF, NYC etc.
Revenge talking about player backgrounds was big
Great episode!
Thank you!!
Let's go! A Caller from North Dakota
Have you thought of opening your patreon back up since you only closed it because of the partnerships? Id be down to join
Well damn, I really liked Revenge.
It makes for a great show when the host is rushing every single caller and reminding you he doesn't want to be there for too long. Couldn't you just type this to your co-host?
Buddy, these calls were not getting rushed, lmao
@@TravisGaffordTravis I agree that you have a habit of rushing callers and takes, and losing patience. It seems that sentiment is repeated in the comments. I’m not sure at what point the opinion becomes factual.
I’m a weekly watcher and supporter not trying to dog on you, just help you build self awareness over it to see if it’s something you can address in the future.
weird how one thing is common in all the esport failures... franchising. Its almost like forcing teams to pay exorbitant amounts of money to buy in and then spend exorbitant amounts of money on players, home bases, all of those things doesnt lead to a great product. Cod, Overwatch, League etc. All failing/failed as soon as the hype died off from franchising.
1. I think 8 teams is more sustainable and more realistic, 2. I think it's fine that only ultra talented players will risk it all for LCS, because giving prospect players 100K salaries on tier 2 leagues while they shoot their shot is just not realistic/sustainable for LCS. let's be real.
In europe players play semi-pro part time while working/studying in regional leagues. If a player seems promising then he is incentivized to go full on pro but if he doesnt show that talent from playing part time, then the ecosystem sadly cannot accomodate him
Also tier 2 should be completely remote to allow players to play without having to relocate to the most expensive state
Also LCS/orgs should look to normalize the team office as the main living space of the pro, that would cut a lot of costs and will allow orgs to pay lower salaries and save money. The team can be responsible for at least 2 meals a day if not for housing (like in the past).
I both agree and disagree with Revenge's comment about 100k not being enough.
I think the way he laid out his expenses is kind of ridiculous. You don't need to get a 3k apartment, get food delivered every meal, or uber everywhere. Saying that you do, then cry that 100k is not enough , is ridiculous.
But there is a nugget of truth here that NA, or at least Americans, will never be able field a true talent. Because a truly smart and talented American does not see the LCS as a legitimate career path, when that person can just be a doctor, a lawyer, sports athelets, SWE, etc.etc. instead. We will never have our Faker, because the potential Fakers in out region have chosen other careers.
Los Angeles is one of the most expensive places to live in the US so rent at $3k may not be completely unreasonable for a safe area of the city. Also keep in mind that $9000 of that salary goes right to California for income taxes. Another $20-25,000 goes to the Federal Government as well.
Sales taxes are between 8-11% depending on the county. Electricity in California is some of the most expensive in the US because they shutdown a significant number of their power generating stations and import power from neighboring states. They also pay more for other utilities like water.
Uber means he doesn't have to pay for a car and car insurance which is some of the worst in the country and LA is notorious for not having public transportation for huge swaths of the city or the ability to walk anywhere because it's built around cars. Uber may actually be a reasonable option and if it's not then he's going to be in a taxi and that's not much better.
The are very, very good reasons why people clamor for Riot to move the LCS out of LA to a city that is cheaper to live in and closer to the servers in Chicago. Everything about LA makes the costs of doing business in the city so much higher. Unless you live in New York or San Francisco, you aren't getting a realistic idea of the costs. Go look up a cost of living conversion from where you live to LA. It's eye watering.
Moving the LCS in a different state is the move I think. Not sure which but Cali just too expensive and for what.
1:04:22 Does anyone know who the support is? 👀
i think theres a good chance its Destiny
Gotta be Destiny. Dardoch only started coaching when Destiny was the support. Before Destiny was Hakuho but Dardoch wasn’t coaching. IgNar came after Destiny, but he said he loved IgNar so it’s gotta be Destiny.
Bring back the analyst desk!
YES REVENGE
Can confirm Raz's point. I stopped watching last year due to the time change and now I feel literally zero drive to watch on the weekends. I can better spend my time with my significant other or just doing other adult things. People dont come back and thats a permanent loss.
I haven't even watched it yet but I'm excited for Raz being on
Revenge is so on point about mental health. Anyone saying that they know what these kids need, without being part of their DAILY lives, is so presumptuous and immature. Such an arrogant and nonsensical take. Of course every ~20 year old needs support from elders who can provide perspective and advice about the long term. However, to presume it’s what these kids need more than a competition therapist is so immature.
Oh boy, we got raz.
My man said he has to door dash lol the entitled is real lol
Bring back Licorice!
Revenge is bitching about making 100k a year meanwhile service members make 30k a year work as long if not longer and live in these super expensive areas
I'm not aware of many members of the armed forces who make 30k a year living in Santa Monica, Culver City, or Playa Vista, and I live in these areas.
I read the comment as being service industry, i.e. restaurant staff, retail positions, etc.@@TravisGafford
I know nobody gives a shit about this, and I fully expect some edgelord comment throwing the word at me, but to Travis’s editor: Thank you for cutting the r-slur from this recording. Being autistic/ADHD in this world is tiring enough, and hearing that word get thrown around casually always makes the gaming world feel less inclusive. Not having to hear it made my listening experience better. Thank you.
No problem!
Right around 2 hours in travis seems annoyed.
Two Mohammad
Community: PRO PLAYERS MUST GRIND 18 HOURS A DAY.
Also Community: WHY CAN'T YOU COOK AND DRIVE HOURS TO THE OFFICE AND LIVE IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE.
The ego on this guy. Played LCS for 2 seasons on the last place teams. "Watching C9's downfall" GTFO bud. Someone is mad they didn't get picked up. Liquipedia/lolfandom shows ONLY ONE 3rd place win over entire career on Jojo's team. Other than that 8-10th place every split.
Yeah he played for Immortals lmfao. You expect ANYONE to be picking up good placements on that team?
For the algo
“100k isn’t enough” these players are used to ordering Uber and DoorDash 3x a day no wonder it’s not enough 😂
You know the entire entertainment industry is entitled when they think playing videogames for less than $100k is being broke.
True
Dude making a 100k in the part of LA they live in is like making 65k in the Midwest with very little upwards movement you people are so fucking ignorant
Revenge's case is definitely unique if he has freaking medical school lined up for him.. but 100k in LA is definitely liveable.
3k apartment exists, but only if you want to live by yourself in an amazing area. You can find apartments elsewhere for cheaper, and maybe with a roommate. 1.5k-2k is not unheard of.
Take out: yeah he is entitled to believe he can just do take out every day, for 60 dollars a day. If you do that you deserve to be poor.
Uber: the LCS studio is near the train station, he can totally use public transportation. If he doesn't even consider that an option that feels pretty entitled.
I don't know man, Revenge did specify that it was in California with having the players have to pay for their own housing and food. Given that context, it isn't as much as say $100k in Pennsylvania. It's not like California rural area, it's near downtown LA with its state tax, sales tax, and having to pay for their own housing and food, unlike in the past where both housing and food was provided (thus subsiding a huge proportion of cost). The players are also geolocked since they have to be close to the studio as well. You can say that they should be able to transport themselves by having a car etc. But now they have to pay for transportation and maintenence fees for the car, all in California no less. He goes into way more detail and context and it seems reasonable from his perspective.
Half goes to income tax. Still think $50k is livable in California?
Revenge stole enough money from teams. Another paycheck saved.