Very thorough testing and a very clear video demonstrating the myths!! I did notice something else I was not expecting and cannot explain. The slow mo videos show the arrow leaving with bow with lots of applied torque. As the arrow leaves the bow, the center of the arrow is down and the ends are upwards. This is best since at 11:55 and 14:39 minutes. Maybe that has something to do with shooting 3 under. Anyway it seemed very substantial and unexpected.
@@TradArchery101 I am not sure how a high nocking point causes the apparent torque on the arrow. Typically a high nocking point means the arrow lifts off the rest at the beginning of the release. I don't know about "very, very high".
A point about quills in your hand. Adjust nocking point if you have a problem. I've had my finger cut up a bit by my fletchings and a kind fellow by the name of Armin Hirmer suggested raising my nock point about a thumb widths higher and see if it changes anything and lo and behold no more cuts. I've even shot turkish composite bows right off the hand with no shelf and no glove after learning that without as much as a scratch.
Thanks..learn a lot from you..I have a 45# super Kodiak..I put a short piece of plumber's tape on the thread of my points and that works too..all the best
I have always believed that right wing in the southern hemisphere and left wing in the northern hemisphere ( except in California where everything is confused...).
I've always used straight left wing just because back when I began building up my arrows I started using them and kept using them since just to eliminate any mixing. Thanks for taking the time to do this, another great video.
nice test but I would've suggested to put one off color feather of the four fletching in the spin test. It would've been a better experiment to determine which way the arrow spun in a low fps camera to dictate the direction. That's just my observation but thank you for this!
I enjoy your videos. As someone who has been shooting archery for over 40 yrs with recurves, longbows and compounds my points do come loose at times. I use a little bowstring wax on the threads.
I shoot trad and compound, all vanes and feathers are right wing and if fletched with helical, it’s right as well. I constantly tighten points on ALL arrows. It’s the only thing I do consistently. Thanks for the tip on string wax. Great video.
Greg, when your thinking your shooting:-). I have heard that with the right spines arrow it bends away and around the riser which which clears any contact. You get a chance have you camera over head shooting down on you when you release. I watched a video years ago with that setup recurve bow and on release the nock of the arrow bends in a good inch before the tip begins to move. Done in slow motion. Thank you. Alan
Hey Greg, are you spying on me? I was just outside testing me new arrows with RW feathers... Mine have some pretty heavy helical on them. Didn't notice any difference in flight from my LW feathers. (Right handed shooter) Only reason I want to try RW, is the opposite of the loose point myth, which I've never actually heard. The spin of the arrow doesn't start quickly enough to loosen your point, unless it was already loose, like you said. I've actually read that RW tightens your point, but it tightens it when they hit the target. Only been out stumping with them so far, but gonna do some target shooting tomorrow.
dude. Your slomo lacks inbetweens. Someone sees an arrow rotating to the left and some other sees it rotating to the right. You need more frames per sec.s
First i want to say I love your stuff. And truly dint want to cause a stir so I hope this doesn't.. Lol So I'm told every bow shoots differently when it come to rotation. And a bare shaft will help determine right wing or left wing preferences. Whats your thoughts? 2nd i noticed on the video a ton of flex in those arrows. I have never video recorded an arrow in flight. However seams they may not be the rights spine or the Foc may be off? This is a question, I have just started in the sport and was surprised to see that much flex. This is not intended to criticize. I truly respect your knowledge and I am very inquisitive. Thanks. Keep up the great videos. Love it.
Those who talk about the "Natural" rotation are stressing over something that does not matter. Plenty of top archers do not take that into consideration. All arrows flex, how much is not as important as where it hits. Some bows, especially those not cut to center, require an arrow that flexes more.
I have seen people with quills stuck in their hand from shooting longbows. And I told them to make sure they put a nice glob of glue on the front of the quills when they put new feathers on their arrows. Also when you buy arrows that are already made make sure that that is done if you're shooting a longbow or recurve off the shelf. I like that new word you made up in your text about throughout the testing. "throught" out... left-wing or right-wing doesn't really matter as long as you don't mix the two
Thank You!!!! I have placed misspelling in several of my latest videos and no one caught them. I was beginning to wonder! No one has found the one in the Heat Box video on 3D Archery and I even told them about it.
I can second this: while one has never penetrated the leather of the glove on my bow hand, there is clear damage to the leather from when I didn't cover the tips of the feathers.
Your slomo video doesn't conclude rotation. I see every arrow flying BOTH directions if I let my eye relax. Maybe use a color cock feather and more frames per second? I DO really enjoy your videos!
I build self bows and left verses right doesn't really make any difference. I have had many fetchings grab my hand, especially commercial feathers. But if I wrap the front end of the fletch or grind it so it sits flatter on the arrow then I don't have that same issue.
That is called gyroscopic drift and that only occurs in bullets, arrows are to slow and shoot to short of a distance for that to occur. Spoke to engineers from Gold Tip about that.
When you shoot a bare shaft it will spin counter clockwise or clockwise and every bow is different. Once you find out which way it spins you should fletch your arrows to that rotation-. It does make a difference and yes all the top pros shooting for money do it
@@TradArchery101 Why would you not do it? It takes 10 seconds to do it and it makes a difference. Every little bit of stability helps. Maybe wont notice at short distances but longer distances 30+ yards it will.
You said it yourself, you will not notice it. IBO and ASA has a max of 30 yards. Not even sure if Olympic Archers do that. Have not seen it in any of the manuals or books about their way of shooting and they shoot 70m.
@@TradArchery101 it’s common sense- if an arrow naturally rotates left and you put a fletching to spin right then thr arrow will leave the bow spinning left and at some point it will have to stop and then rotate back to the right causing instability for that time. My not be much but we need every help we can get.
You just doubled my feather supply thanks, well I was grateful until I realised that it halves my Turkey hunting requirement for this year ;( Very helpful for a backyard archer I am sure it will never matter in the slightest.
Hey Greg, noticed you changed your shot cycle? you now bring your back arm up from much lower to your anchor rather than drawing straight through ? any particular reason why? looks like you bow is a higher draw weight? My current shot cycle is similar to the way you used to shoot. cheers Kurt
I shoot right wing, when I'm shooting feathers. The reason why is because when I bought my first 100 port orford cedar shafts, it seemed like a good idea. I am now just stubborn.
I've never heard that RW loosens tips, I've heard that LWs do. I only shoot LW (this is what I started with and don't want to buy another clamp) and I had a consistent problem with my points coming loose until I took a pair of pliers to them and tightened them just past hand tight and my tips stopped coming lose. A single bevel is meant to cause rotation during the cut, by physics if the feathers are causing an arrow rotation opposite the rotation caused by the blade during cutting then the forces will offset causing a rotation in the animal in the direction of the stronger force. So I can see this decreasing penetration and wound channel size/shape, less rotations per inch of penetration and less ease of penetration as the feathers are fighting the cut.. -Now will this have a significant enough effect to reduce the ethicalness of the kill, ie more damage=more bleeding=quicker death, I don't know. Would I risk it hunting no, but thats me. -This poses an interesting question and I do have some ideas on how to test this, after I finish my thesis.
Tried it, didn't work. I tried melting the wax so it would set and hold it tighter, didn't work. So now I melt the wax and take pliers to it and I have no problem. My problem now is my inserts pulling out and since a JBwelded one recently came out I'm revisiting my interior of the shaft prep work.
If they all spin the same way, why? Would it matter if you shot right handed? If so, would they spin the opposite way? I don't think you really completed that part of the test. As far as the single bevel broadhead goes, it won't make any difference in flight characteristics, however, if you do have enough offset or helical to make the arrow spin one way, you would want the broadhead to match. This is because of the fact that the single bevel will spin when going through tissue, which is actually good. If you are spinning it opposite the bevel, it will reverse the direction when it contacts flesh. Theoretically, this bleeds off momentum and decreases penetration...not a good thing. So, if you are going to spin the arrows in a particular direction, match it to the bevel. Or do what I do and shoot a double bevel, lol!
Your eyes, or should i say your mind is deceiving you. I used three cameras (did not use all the footage), all from different angles, slowed them down and finally freeze framed them and went back and forth between frames to confirm. They both rotate in the same direction. I also used footage from later shoots to compare and confirmed what I found. Finally, I sent the footage to Jeff, Tim and to several engineers at two arrows companies. They all confirmed what i saw and said.
I was told it is the same principle as "Spinner" Rims that look like they are moving in the opposite direction that they are. io9.gizmodo.com/why-do-wheels-sometimes-appear-to-spin-backwards-1593807400
I make my own bows and arrows and when shooting a shelfless bow I've gotten very minor cuts, more like scratches really, on my left hand [hand holding the bow] but a bow with a shelf I can't imagine there would be any risk to your support(?) hand. Also mixing left and right on the same arrow has no effect as long as the fetchings are straight.
You should be using the same color nocks for both arrows. Everyone knows that brighter colors make the arrow fly faster! ;) In all seriousness, though, you should have made one feather black (or any different color) on each arrow so that we could see the rotation more easily. In many of the slo-mo videos it was very difficult to tell if they were really spinning one way or another. Other than that, it was a good test.
Wow that was some great testing and myth busting!! Very interesting!!! Really enjoyed and learned from this video!!! Thank you!
Very thorough testing and a very clear video demonstrating the myths!! I did notice something else I was not expecting and cannot explain. The slow mo videos show the arrow leaving with bow with lots of applied torque. As the arrow leaves the bow, the center of the arrow is down and the ends are upwards. This is best since at 11:55 and 14:39 minutes. Maybe that has something to do with shooting 3 under. Anyway it seemed very substantial and unexpected.
I think I can. I use a very, very high nocking point. I do that to get my point on at 30 yards.
@@TradArchery101 I am not sure how a high nocking point causes the apparent torque on the arrow. Typically a high nocking point means the arrow lifts off the rest at the beginning of the release. I don't know about "very, very high".
Don't use a rest, shoot of the shelf. The arrow's tip is point lower than the nock. Having it so high makes it sensitive to variations of form.
A point about quills in your hand. Adjust nocking point if you have a problem. I've had my finger cut up a bit by my fletchings and a kind fellow by the name of Armin Hirmer suggested raising my nock point about a thumb widths higher and see if it changes anything and lo and behold no more cuts. I've even shot turkish composite bows right off the hand with no shelf and no glove after learning that without as much as a scratch.
Thanks..learn a lot from you..I have a 45# super Kodiak..I put a short piece of plumber's tape on the thread of my points and that works too..all the best
I have always believed that right wing in the southern hemisphere and left wing in the northern hemisphere ( except in California where everything is confused...).
HAHA!!
in California it causes cancer
I've always used straight left wing just because back when I began building up my arrows I started using them and kept using them since just to eliminate any mixing. Thanks for taking the time to do this, another great video.
nice test but I would've suggested to put one off color feather of the four fletching in the spin test. It would've been a better experiment to determine which way the arrow spun in a low fps camera to dictate the direction. That's just my observation but thank you for this!
Great video Greg, and thanks for putting the myth's to bed 👍👍👍 and talking about bed it's 2:05 Sunday morning here in the U.K. 😳
frankie1956 oh, it's 5 o'clock somewhere......
Hello Greg, You are absolutely correct that the arrow does not start to spin until it is past the riser! Unless one had some of those twisty nocks.
th-cam.com/video/HvjAmLsqw3w/w-d-xo.html
Looked to me like the video you linked didn't spin until it was past the riser
I enjoy your videos. As someone who has been shooting archery for over 40 yrs with recurves, longbows
and compounds my points do come loose at times. I use a little bowstring wax on the threads.
Very cool and informative video, addressing some topics I get asked or have heard over the years. Cheers
I shoot trad and compound, all vanes and feathers are right wing and if fletched with helical, it’s right as well. I constantly tighten points on ALL arrows. It’s the only thing I do consistently. Thanks for the tip on string wax. Great video.
Another fascinating study - thanks Greg! This channel is like the Science Show for archers ... LOL
Good stuff Greg. Love the video.
you left out one: do not mix RW/LW on the same arrow ....
Greg, when your thinking your shooting:-). I have heard that with the right spines arrow it bends away and around the riser which which clears any contact. You get a chance have you camera over head shooting down on you when you release. I watched a video years ago with that setup recurve bow and on release the nock of the arrow bends in a good inch before the tip begins to move. Done in slow motion. Thank you. Alan
Love your ‘experimenting’ vids 🏹🤓
Hey Greg, are you spying on me? I was just outside testing me new arrows with RW feathers...
Mine have some pretty heavy helical on them. Didn't notice any difference in flight from my LW feathers. (Right handed shooter)
Only reason I want to try RW, is the opposite of the loose point myth, which I've never actually heard. The spin of the arrow doesn't start quickly enough to loosen your point, unless it was already loose, like you said.
I've actually read that RW tightens your point, but it tightens it when they hit the target.
Only been out stumping with them so far, but gonna do some target shooting tomorrow.
Great video work 👍, interesting info.
yeah but... did you take into consideration the earth's rotation? just kidding. love the video
dude. Your slomo lacks inbetweens. Someone sees an arrow rotating to the left and some other sees it rotating to the right. You need more frames per sec.s
Love your ‘myth’ testing 👍🏻
First i want to say I love your stuff. And truly dint want to cause a stir so I hope this doesn't.. Lol
So I'm told every bow shoots differently when it come to rotation. And a bare shaft will help determine right wing or left wing preferences. Whats your thoughts? 2nd i noticed on the video a ton of flex in those arrows. I have never video recorded an arrow in flight. However seams they may not be the rights spine or the Foc may be off? This is a question, I have just started in the sport and was surprised to see that much flex. This is not intended to criticize. I truly respect your knowledge and I am very inquisitive. Thanks. Keep up the great videos. Love it.
Those who talk about the "Natural" rotation are stressing over something that does not matter.
Plenty of top archers do not take that into consideration.
All arrows flex, how much is not as important as where it hits. Some bows, especially those not cut to center, require an arrow that flexes more.
@@TradArchery101 thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.
Good info. Interesting results. Thx
I have seen people with quills stuck in their hand from shooting longbows. And I told them to make sure they put a nice glob of glue on the front of the quills when they put new feathers on their arrows. Also when you buy arrows that are already made make sure that that is done if you're shooting a longbow or recurve off the shelf. I like that new word you made up in your text about throughout the testing. "throught" out... left-wing or right-wing doesn't really matter as long as you don't mix the two
Thank You!!!! I have placed misspelling in several of my latest videos and no one caught them. I was beginning to wonder! No one has found the one in the Heat Box video on 3D Archery and I even told them about it.
I can second this: while one has never penetrated the leather of the glove on my bow hand, there is clear damage to the leather from when I didn't cover the tips of the feathers.
Myths Busted....there’s nothing like the scientific method!
Good video.
Thanks mate - great video.
Your slomo video doesn't conclude rotation. I see every arrow flying BOTH directions if I let my eye relax. Maybe use a color cock feather and more frames per second? I DO really enjoy your videos!
I build self bows and left verses right doesn't really make any difference. I have had many fetchings grab my hand, especially commercial feathers. But if I wrap the front end of the fletch or grind it so it sits flatter on the arrow then I don't have that same issue.
Also an arrow that spins left over longer distances will drift left of point of aim
And vica versa
That is called gyroscopic drift and that only occurs in bullets, arrows are to slow and shoot to short of a distance for that to occur. Spoke to engineers from Gold Tip about that.
When you shoot a bare shaft it will spin counter clockwise or clockwise and every bow is different. Once you find out which way it spins you should fletch your arrows to that rotation-. It does make a difference and yes all the top pros shooting for money do it
All the top pro's shooting compound do, yes. Trad, not so much.
@@TradArchery101 Why would you not do it? It takes 10 seconds to do it and it makes a difference. Every little bit of stability helps. Maybe wont notice at short distances but longer distances 30+ yards it will.
You said it yourself, you will not notice it. IBO and ASA has a max of 30 yards.
Not even sure if Olympic Archers do that. Have not seen it in any of the manuals or books about their way of shooting and they shoot 70m.
@@TradArchery101 it’s common sense- if an arrow naturally rotates left and you put a fletching to spin right then thr arrow will leave the bow spinning left and at some point it will have to stop and then rotate back to the right causing instability for that time. My not be much but we need every help we can get.
Nicely done..............Thanks
You just doubled my feather supply thanks, well I was grateful until I realised that it halves my Turkey hunting requirement for this year ;(
Very helpful for a backyard archer I am sure it will never matter in the slightest.
Hey Greg, noticed you changed your shot cycle? you now bring your back arm up from much lower to your anchor rather than drawing straight through
? any particular reason why? looks like you bow is a higher draw weight? My current shot cycle is similar to the way you used to shoot. cheers Kurt
Yeah, do not copy me on that. I do that in order to keep my shoulder down and focus on using my back.
I shoot right wing, when I'm shooting feathers. The reason why is because when I bought my first 100 port orford cedar shafts, it seemed like a good idea. I am now just stubborn.
I know that last part well.
looks like the left wings are takin longer ta straightin out than the right, maybe torking bow? still good stuff keep it comin.,.
I've never heard that RW loosens tips, I've heard that LWs do. I only shoot LW (this is what I started with and don't want to buy another clamp) and I had a consistent problem with my points coming loose until I took a pair of pliers to them and tightened them just past hand tight and my tips stopped coming lose.
A single bevel is meant to cause rotation during the cut, by physics if the feathers are causing an arrow rotation opposite the rotation caused by the blade during cutting then the forces will offset causing a rotation in the animal in the direction of the stronger force. So I can see this decreasing penetration and wound channel size/shape, less rotations per inch of penetration and less ease of penetration as the feathers are fighting the cut..
-Now will this have a significant enough effect to reduce the ethicalness of the kill, ie more damage=more bleeding=quicker death, I don't know. Would I risk it hunting no, but thats me.
-This poses an interesting question and I do have some ideas on how to test this, after I finish my thesis.
You do know that by simply adding string wax to the thread, that will stop the point from loosening right?
Tried it, didn't work. I tried melting the wax so it would set and hold it tighter, didn't work. So now I melt the wax and take pliers to it and I have no problem.
My problem now is my inserts pulling out and since a JBwelded one recently came out I'm revisiting my interior of the shaft prep work.
So does the 4 fletching fly the same as a 3 fletching arrow of is it slower?
To many variables to give a conclusive answer. Weight, more than number of feathers will affect speed.
ok so what about mixing left and right on the same shaft, and will they spin the other way if you switch to a right handed bow? just makes my wonder?
If they all spin the same way, why? Would it matter if you shot right handed? If so, would they spin the opposite way? I don't think you really completed that part of the test.
As far as the single bevel broadhead goes, it won't make any difference in flight characteristics, however, if you do have enough offset or helical to make the arrow spin one way, you would want the broadhead to match. This is because of the fact that the single bevel will spin when going through tissue, which is actually good. If you are spinning it opposite the bevel, it will reverse the direction when it contacts flesh. Theoretically, this bleeds off momentum and decreases penetration...not a good thing. So, if you are going to spin the arrows in a particular direction, match it to the bevel. Or do what I do and shoot a double bevel, lol!
Thank you again, Greg.
- Have you tested arrows with 2, 3 or 4 wings?
I see you use 4 wings.
Ok Greg... My eyes must be deceiving me.
Im certain that the video shows arrows spinning different directions when fletched straight.
Your eyes, or should i say your mind is deceiving you. I used three cameras (did not use all the footage), all from different angles, slowed them down and finally freeze framed them and went back and forth between frames to confirm. They both rotate in the same direction. I also used footage from later shoots to compare and confirmed what I found. Finally, I sent the footage to Jeff, Tim and to several engineers at two arrows companies. They all confirmed what i saw and said.
Archery 101. My eyes must be decieving me :-)
I was told it is the same principle as "Spinner" Rims that look like they are moving in the opposite direction that they are.
io9.gizmodo.com/why-do-wheels-sometimes-appear-to-spin-backwards-1593807400
Archery 101 thank you for another great video.
An idea should you do future testing would be to fletch 1 feather as a bright color so you have a point of reference during the rotation
Bareshaft clock your arrows and fletch and pair bevel accordingly
Thanks good job enjoy slow tells a lot
I make my own bows and arrows and when shooting a shelfless bow I've gotten very minor cuts, more like scratches really, on my left hand [hand holding the bow] but a bow with a shelf I can't imagine there would be any risk to your support(?) hand. Also mixing left and right on the same arrow has no effect as long as the fetchings are straight.
I'll be using 3" right wing feathers on my arrows when they arrive from China. Thanks
3" feathers worked awesome when the bow and arrow are tuned. Now, if they are not, not sure how much I can say that.
i've mixed them before and makes no difference.
11:47 right wing spins to the left!
Not warched vid yet.... Guessing no difference at all :-)
10:24 left wing spins to the right
Yup.
You should be using the same color nocks for both arrows. Everyone knows that brighter colors make the arrow fly faster! ;)
In all seriousness, though, you should have made one feather black (or any different color) on each arrow so that we could see the rotation more easily. In many of the slo-mo videos it was very difficult to tell if they were really spinning one way or another. Other than that, it was a good test.
I should have known that about the brighter colors!
Left wing also spins faster than right wing
You base that off of what? I would love to see any evidence you have to support that claim
test avec arc trop puissant non maitrisé c'est dommage.