I think his concept could have been spot of if rdj and chris evans was both coming back as Ironman and cap but the problem and I think alot of people have kinda been in agreement or at least confused about how itll play is why bring rdj back as someone else ie Doom regardless of multiverse? I think his concept would make more sense if it was the chiefs would play Patrick mahomes but he is playing as a defensive back instead of quarterback and that's how people are looking at it. Marvel did make a smart money move but it's a gamble move none the less cause it could not work and that'll hurt just as bad. But I'm pretty sure evans will don the shield again and rdj will do double duty and will be iron man as well and it'll all work out just fine. They just need to show and explain the vision to where majority people will be ok with it all.
RDJ and Evans are not what made the MCU great . It was the writers and directors , they could elevate ANY character if they wanted to, but they choose not too cause they’re lazy
I think John's analogies of Marvel not being desperate don't work. One of the main takeaways from Endgame is that it was supposed to be a send-off to Chris Evans and RDJ in the MCU. Of course people's minds change and there can be good storytelling opportunities with both of them returning, but doing it for the first Avengers movie since Endgame after their original plans with Kang Dynasty failed and after they weren't able to properly establish a new central character to the MCU definitely shows that they were running out of ideas. I say this as somebody who is pretty excited for RDJ to play Doom.
Its not absurd,, their stories finished. They had their story arch. Every comparison u made didnt have an true ending to their story, cap and iron man did. Its desperate. I'm not saying they shouldn't do it but it is
John, comparing RDJ as Doom to Tobey Maguire or Andrew Garfield coming back is not the same thing cause they returned to play their respective characters. That be like in NWH Tobey comes back but instead of being Spider-Man he’s Green Goblin then people would’ve been like "what is going on here?" "Whose idea was this?"
Ong the whole he kept yapping about Mahomes and I was like is forgetting the part where Chris Evens and RDJ retired from the franchise almost six years ago💀
You shouldn't need the OG characters of the MCU to move forward especially after Endgame which wrapped up the previous phases NICELY. So unwrapping that for a MONEY GRAB is beyond ridiculous.
Isn't the point of Secret Wars is having all these different characters and bringing back characters? There would be no point to do it if they didn't bring back faces from the past.
For everyone bitchin and moaning about Chris Evans & Robert Downey Jr coming back for AVENGERS: DOOMSDAY...Did y'all really think we weren't gonna get them back for DOOMSDAY & Damn Near Everyone for SECRET WARS? These Announcements aren't shocking.
Most of their films outside the MCU bomb so it is usefull for them to have that MCU money because they can do other projects and not worry about them bombing or getting paid much.
Even Marvel didn’t know they were going to return. If they did they wouldn’t have concluded those characters in the way they did. Predictions that they would return were actually just predictions of Marvel’s desperation!
Marvel bringing back RDJ is so very clearly desperate. But, that may not be a bad thing. Marvel might actually produce something truly great under this kinda pressure. Edit: You’re being VERY disingenuous here with your comparisons to Michael Keaton in the Flash and Tobey Maguire in No Way Home, John. RDJ is not coming back as the same character, he’s playing Dr. Doom. It’s a stunt casting meant to make the MCU feel more relevant. Again, it could work, but it IS desperation.
@iambuhlockay8007 exactly. They aren't bringing Tony Stark back they're bringing RDJ back and that is a move directly aimed at putting butts in seats with a stunt casted Doctor Doom instead of building up the character and the story. John knows it, he's just being arbitrary.
Actually, the Patrick Mahomes analogy is dumb. The proper analogy would be if the New England Patriots decided to bring back Tom Brady after he was retired. Patrick Mahomes is not retired. Iron Man and Captain America were retired. Bringing them back is definitely desperation because nothing in phase 4 worked. It’s evident because they originally were going to go with the kang storyline until Jonathan Majors got into trouble. You can say that they’re bringing back the popular characters, but that’s only because they couldn’t figure out how to make the new characters actually work due to bad writing And bad character development.
It is desperate. These new characters marvel introduced have not been a hit with audiences. Falcon America is going to lose money, Thundserbolts might do the same. Its often lonely being wrong (unless youre on a podcast with yes men) To being them back makes sense but doesnt change the power play.
I do think you're wrong about the 2 up coming movies. I think they'll make money. Especially Thunderbolts. I'm okay tmwith RDJ coming back as an actor, but the Doom thing pisses me off. We deserved a proper Doom.
John is wrong as usual. Marvel had other characters, directors, writers and storylines announced for Avengers 5 and now everything has flipped. Kang Dynasty to Doomsday. They're switching up because Kang failed to excite audiences as the new big bad, the scripts were bad, the Multiverse is is a disaster and now they need the Russos, RDJ and Evans to return with grand announcements to save this next Avengers film and this limping universe. It was always a dumb idea to kill off Stark and retire Rogers after Endgame. Everyone said it then and only now is Feige realizing it.
@TheGOATRammus sure Majors got in legal trouble but don't pretend that Kang was exciting audiences and building hype and anticipation for Avengers 5. He lost to Ant-Man, which was another huge MCU Marvel blunder. Majors legal issues just gave them an easy out. If Kang was a great main villain for Avengers 5, they could have simply recast Majors and called it a Kang variant but the fact that they decided to change up everything means they knew Kang was a dead end.
You don't know what you have until you kill it. They saw audiences missed rdj and Evans so they brought them back. It's simple. Give people what they want make more money
I'm okay with him and RDJ returning, as long as they're not returning as "sacred timeline" Steve & Tony respectively. I still disagree with the "desperate" label. Desperate is actually getting RDJ and Chris Evans back as those iconic classic characters. Bringing them back as different characters or variants DOES NOT negate the development of the Sacred Timeline versions of Tony or Steve. Frankly, it gives them a chance to do something different, and let's the audience see them do something different as well. "Deadpool & Wolverine" and even "What If...?" has shown that we can see different versions of these characters presented, based on different scenarios or life experiences from the stories we've seen. That's the whole point of the MULTIVERSE. And at any rate, the idea of following a "different version" shouldn't be that big of a deal, considering the MCU's arguably most successful TV show is about a Loki VARIANT. And hell, Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3 has a different Gamora. Two characters whose respective character journeys ended in pretty definitive deaths, and yet people were okay with following their variants in an acclaimed TV show and movie. Not to mention "WandaVision" presented a new version(s?) of Vision whose death is arguably the setting-off point for said show, and is about to have HIS OWN show! And I didn't exactly hear any whining when Evans showed up in DP&W to reprise a version of his Human Torch. Considering Avengers 5 & 6 were LONG AGO confirmed to be an adaptation of "Secret Wars", a story that deals HEAVILY with the collision of Multiverses and Variants, wtf y'all people think that was gonna entail? I dunno. End of the day, we can't judge until we see the final product, but these casting announcements aren't as egregious/offensive as y'all fans make it out to be.
I never thought I would read a comment about casting OG characters having understanding. Good job. All of the comments I have seen are 'desperate' and 'MCU is dying'
No, it does reek of desperation. And comparing a sports game to a narrative is not the same. In a sports game the entire point is to win. In a narrative, the entire point is to get the viewer enthralled and create a complex/moving story. By bringing back Chris Evans as Captain America you’re proving that things won’t change. We always joked that death didn’t matter in the MCU but Tony and Steve’s sacrifice proved that the notion was false. And of course you need some new characters and veteran characters, but that’s what Thor, Hulk, and Hawkeye are for. If Evans is returning, it takes away from Mackie’s turn. Marvel made an investment with these new characters and are backing out before giving them a second chance. They aren’t taking Steve Rogers off the bench, they’re digging him out of the grave
I actually do believe it’s desperate. Instead of saying it’s like playing Patrick mahomes, it’s more similar to the 49ers asking Jerry rice to come back for one more season. These 2s stories came to a good ending. But now because marvel is on a down slope they’re pulling back to what worked. Desperate, yes. Bad or good, we have to let the movie speak for itself.
This is the same guy that whines and cries about how it's the "Marvel fake death universe". Now all the sudden he's perfectly okay with lazy writing. By your logic, every movie should be an Avengers movie with the Russo Bothers bc "Why not use our most popular characters in our next movie?!?...". How about they make an actual good storyline before we worry about the cameos....is that too much to ask?
7:17 the problem is every time they did take risks they’ve always taken the lazy approach. If you pay attention to the behind the scenes of most of their newer projects you would know it goes deeper than just "Marvel’s been trying a bunch of new stuff". Marvel always went into production with a half baked script, they make changes during production and even more changes afterwards. The real problem is not have a concrete plan before cameras roll. Simply saying "this character or this project failed because they tried a bunch of new stuff" is just lazy thinking.
I respectfully disagree with John when he says that we're insane for thinking this is a bad idea. Business wise, it's a GENIUS idea. Nobody is denying that. Money is the reason that Joker 2 got made. Business wise, looking at the success of Joker 1, it would have been crazy to not even consider a sequel. Story wise, we are not a fan of how they are putting the actor before the character. I want to see Victor von Doom as his own character, not as a Tony Stark variant. It'd be like if they announced that Elijah Wood was returning for the new Lord of the Rings movie, but he'd be playing a completely different character and the villain. Business wise, it'd be a great idea. Story wise, it'd be dumb. Just cast someone else as the character. I don't think the new MCU movies failing has anything to do with the fact that RDJ and Chris Evans are gone. There have been some excellent ones (No Way Home, Guardians 3, Deadpool and Wolverine, etc.) They have to do with the writing and the execution. I don't think having them there is automatically going to make it a terrific movie. I'm sure it will be a $2 billion movie contender, but they seem focused on quantity over quality in this case. Just my opinion though.
I agree that this was a business decision and not for the betterment of a story. It especially worries me that this was not the original plan since Kang was supposed to be the big bad and we know what happened there. It feels way more last minute and dare I say DESPERATE to get the attention of the audience back. There absolutely is still a chance for Doomsday and Secret Wars to be great, especially with the Russos directing. I also frankly expected RDJ and Chris Evans to come back at least for Secret Wars, but bringing in RDJ as Doom who is the new big bad is where Marvel loses me. It feels like a shortcut to rather than build up a new big bad, they just stick a familiar face on him.
Also just imagine the scenes where Peter sees Downey thinking it’s Tony but it’s victor and same with Sam and cap but it’s hydra cap. How emotionally powerful those scenes would be
Honestly this just stinks of desperation. The character was left in a wonderful position and we don't need to bring him back. I hate the idea of bringing back old characters, especially if they die. It really devalues those moments. Why should I feel any sort of emotion when I know they will be back soon?
John that was a bad example wit Spider Man. Those Spider Man actors never had a send off at the times we thought they were going to have another movie. End Game did a send off to those characters as if we would never see them again. And all the talk was not bringing them back to not end that send off.
After reading the comments, watching the video and also seeing all this ridiculous discourse online, here’s my take: John, your analogy was horrendous but you are still right. It’s like when your math teacher tells you you got the answer correct but the work you did to get there was way off lol. Ultimately, this is the Multiverse Saga and it might be the only time we’ll ever be able to revisit some of these old characters. It was probably our last chance to see the OG X-Men cast, the OG F4 cast, Blade, Tobey and Andrew, other Fox heroes from the early naughts, etc and that includes RDJ and Chris. There have been rumors for years now that the ending of Secret Wars will result in a soft reboot of the MCU just like it did in the comics and like DC did with Crisis. What does this mean? A brand new MCU timeline with new actors and characters being brought back so we have one huge MCU with all these heroes and villains around at the same time. That would do wonders for an eventual redo of Civil War, Infinity War, Secret Invasion, etc down the road but now we’ll also be able to adapt things like House of M, Planet Hulk, Avengers v X-Men more faithfully. So why not use this time to bring back these absolutely beloved characters and actors for one true final time? When will the MCU be able to do the Multiverse again? That door will be practically sealed shut after Secret Wars and unlike the comics, we live in the real world where time keeps going and we all age. Capt America can be written by hundreds of different artists but Chris Evans can only do his role in this universe for a bit longer. I see zero fault in using that as we close this chapter and move into a soft reboot of the MCU where we won’t be able to justify revisiting these heroes.
Also (sorry I’ve had a lot to say on this), when have the Russos let us down when it comes to the MCU or Avengers movies? Shoot, when have they let us down when it comes to Chris Evans as Capt America? These are the guys that made Winter Soldier and Civil War which are some of the most celebrated MCU films to date. We all know what assuming does but I’m gonna assume that if anyone knows the perfect way to preserve the legacy of this version of the character while offering something fresh and unique, it’s those guys.
Its definately desperate, but thats not a bad thing. Marvel wouldnt be doing this if they didnt NEED eyes on them. What gave those characters leaving meaning is that they wouldnt come back. That doesnt mean it wont work. John is basically talking like a producer here completely missing the artistic points people are making and concentrating on the short term gain of making money, which is fine, but thats why its desperate. Its not an artistic decision
I definitely disagree with one of the comments made on this segment. The last several movies and new characters that have been introduced have not sucked. Just because we have all set the bar so high, doesn't mean films and characters that don't reach that expectation automatically suck but that is how people have treated Phase Four and Phase Five. Personally speaking, overall, everything after the conclusion the Infinity Saga, which is Far From Home, not End Game, has pretty damn awesome. Every project for me has been good to great. I have no complaints about any of the projects. Quality and quantity have been more than satisfactory for me. People forget, we went 18 months without anything from Marvel Studios, 2 years without a film. I feel like that last 3 going on 4 years has been Marvel Stuidos making up that lost time to us....And I personally thank them for that
Can’t compare RDJ coming back to no way home. At least Tobey and Andrew were playing their previous roles. Bringing the big Marvel money maker back as another major character after a slump is a different story
I wouldn't call a hit or miss record that much of a slump. A slump for Marvel sure, but in general, not really. A lot of movies they put out post Endgame was still profitable.
05:01 COME ON JOHN 😅 You've got to admit that at some level it is kinda desperate, whether is dressed up as being genius is another thing. Marvel should have the talent available to bring the usual audiences AND new audiences to their movies without the need of bringing actors whose characters arc are basically done. If they're not writing their new characters as loveable as they used then objectively speaking we have to say there is a certain level of desperation. 06:37 yes, we all loved watching those two on the screen again. But you also have to admit that the way the MCU has written spiderman for Tom Holland doesn't exactly make it justice to the character. IN EVERY MOVIE Tom's spiderman has dependented on some "father or authority figure": Tony, Nick and Stephen. And yeah, bringing Tobey and Andrew was great and also was related to the story but Tom's version never could've done it alone, and probably it's a mistake they're gonna repeat in spiderman 4 10:00 I seriously doubt it's the same. DC announced a FLASHPOINT movie: time travel, alternate realities and stuff IT WAS OBVIOUS they were gonna bring some previous version of batman because some version of the batman actually plays a critical role in the flashpoint story, it wasn't desperate or genius, it was only logic 🤷🏻♂️
John is being completely intellectually dishonest. Chris Evans's return is DESPERATE! The analogy with the Chiefs is WRONG! Mahomes is STILL UNDER CONTRACT, therefore, he MUST continue to play. RDJ and Evan's contracts are DONE! IF Mahomes retired and happened to attend a game with his wife, and Andy Reid ran into the stands to offer a contract to play on the spot for one game, IT WOULD BE CONSIDERED DESPERATE! The second argument is bringing back older and old actors to reprise their roles. YES! Because it means you have NOTHING else to do with your new characters, and you are DESPERATELY trying to get a billion dollars off of ONE MOVIE, instead of having a successful small film. All superhero movies are doing nowadays are heavily reliant on CAMEOS instead of creative direction and storytelling. Third argument MARVEL is doing NOTHING NEW! SORRY! The movies they are doing now, feel like "filler" films. That is because Marvel is TOO LAZY, to slow down, work from scratch, and build another new world. WITH A NEW STAR CHARACTER to ground everything. Instead, they have been rushing to pump out content for profit. This Avengers movie is a HAIL MARY move reliant on 2 out of work players... RDJ at Quarterback and Evans at Wide Reciever, to electrify a 4th quarter that everyone has lost interest in watching.
I can appreciate hIs point about having to explain why Evans and RDJ's characters don't show up in a multiversal, multi-phase story. That'd be more challenging than getting them to reprise roles. One of the strongest cases for why this is a great move. The complainers know they'll enjoy seeing them back on screen, especially with the popular new faces.
The sports comparison is such a bad analogy. Stories have beginnings and endings. Its okay to leave them at that. Only in comics is this seen not hacky and lazy. They had incredible story arch’s. Leave them be.
A closer sports analogy would be if a team has been struggling for years give up their young stars with some potential to bring back an older more popular vet in the hopes of selling more tickets
@@keysersoze9592 Right, for a massive paycheck that will negatively effect the quality of the roster and coaching staff. Campea and his yes men just want paint Marvel in a better light so it can maintain its popularity and hopefully get more views. Because apathetic fans won't watch their Marvel content
That is a good point that many people don't realise. Chris needs the MCU as much as they need him. Most of his other films bomb. Same with RDJ (Oppemheimer would have been a hit without him) and Hemsworth so many of their films outside the MCU bomb.
The passion behind this ridiculous take is astonishing. Sport analogy here is 100% wrong. I don't know what are they planing to do, but throughout Multiverse saga fan predictions were more fun and more creative than what we actually got. Maybe there is a great story reason for RDJ casting as Doom but if it's just "Oh my God, he looks like Tony Stark", that's weak. Evans coming as some version of Rogers is not a slightest surprise. They could have make big splash announcing, let's say, Chilian Murphy as Doom. With multiple versions of everybody you just reduce the stakes of danger. For sure there were different options to make Doom a great character he deserves to be, throughout the whole Phase of movies. Now he is RDJ. Hopefully they have something that will surprise us and make sense storywise.
Rogue One Michael Keaton Tobey and Garfield are all different than Chris Evans. I think people are annoyed because they wrote the finale for his character in Endgame and he even said himself he’s done with the character. At least RDJ is coming back as a completely different character. I don’t mind Chris Evans coming back but I hope it isn’t as Cap. It retcons his great ending in Endgame. PS: seeing him as Human Torch was amazing, see we don’t need him as Cap to contribute and give all the fans a great time
I think you guys just answered it: he’s coming back as “Hydra America”. It’d make sense considering Stark is returning as “Dr. Doom”. I think the Rogers we know is going to die in “Brave New World”.
Ooooohhh Duuuuuuddeeee!!! What if he’s just in there to be a Steve variant that we think is gonna be the guy, just to be like “it doesn’t have to be this way Tony, we were meant for better…” and then RDJ Doom just OBLITERATES him?!? 😱😭💯🔥
Literally I thought I was the only one thinking this, or maybe he could be the big ying to RDJ’s doom’s yang. Like the big player but on the good side so we can have basically another cap vs iron man lol
Nah, I’m calling old man Steve Rogers and him returning in Cap 4, not Avengers. It makes sense and old man Steve is a straight menace and more diabolical
When the last Cap trailer dropped Campea made sure to ignore it unlike the Thunderbolt trailer which dropped at the same time but with the Evans news announced and lo and behold a 20 min segment. John doesn’t like Mackie’s Cap and wants Evans’ Cap and this confirms it.
No superhero ever really stays dead or gone in the comics . So why should the movies be different ? I wouldn't be surprised after secret wars cap and Iron man are alive and well. Do we want a marvel universe with X-Men but no Iron man and cap steve Rodgers. I sure as hell don't. Even if they have to recast because of age wise i still want those characters back. Like Avengers vs X-Men would be week as hell without them. It would be like the Kansas city chiefs vs Unranked college team. Or the Rock vs Duke the Dumpster drousey lol
to me i love it the nostalgia factor was there and i hope bring back other character like thanos,scarlet witch and black widow because they added the flavor for avengers movie
Even if RDJ and Evans are coming back, they shouldn't come back as their characters. Russos gave them a great ending, it would totally make that ending unworthy.
Story wise, I see Dr. Doom faking being a good Tony, but when he turns on the avengers, Sam has to turn to Steve for help because he knows “Tony” better than anyone else.
Had the MCU been humming along on top of its game, I'd bet RDJ isn't cast Doom. I just don't think this would be happening. Well, first of all, it wouldn't be, because they'd still be doing Kang Dynasty. John can call it stupid all he wants.
john always comes up with the weirdest comparisons like comparing movies to sports makes no sense especially using patrick mahomes that doesnt make sense
“Desperate” not the right word (I just can’t use that word and Disney in the same sentence) and of course its a brilliant move that has already translated into a win with Chris Evan’s now trending. But I hope we aren’t saying it’s not a fair question to ask…were these two characters always in the plan? It not, than why now? Interest in marvel doesn’t exactly have the same pop in recent year, id think most would agree with that? Of course it’s great they are back and hell yeah it’s gonna end up being a BIG win for them. Any biz would do this regardless of the industry, or product. BUT it’s also great because it helps with concern disney may of had regarding interest level. I don’t think that is out of the realm of logic to ask that question. I just think we are mad about the word “desperate”
![[FINALE] 💸ที่แท้พ่อเป็นผู้ถือหุ้นบริษัทพันล้าน เขากลับใจตอนนี้ก็สายไปแล้ว🙇🏻♂️#ละครคุณธรรม #short](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/yFwgjTFISUI/mqdefault.jpg)
the Chiefs/Mahomes comparison is a horrible analogy lol
I think his concept could have been spot of if rdj and chris evans was both coming back as Ironman and cap but the problem and I think alot of people have kinda been in agreement or at least confused about how itll play is why bring rdj back as someone else ie Doom regardless of multiverse?
I think his concept would make more sense if it was the chiefs would play Patrick mahomes but he is playing as a defensive back instead of quarterback and that's how people are looking at it.
Marvel did make a smart money move but it's a gamble move none the less cause it could not work and that'll hurt just as bad. But I'm pretty sure evans will don the shield again and rdj will do double duty and will be iron man as well and it'll all work out just fine. They just need to show and explain the vision to where majority people will be ok with it all.
A better analogy would be if Mahomes retired and the team doesn't play well for the next couple of years and they bring him out of retirement
That Patrick mahomes analogy was terrible. A better analogy would be if mahomes retired for 6 years and chiefs brought him back
seriously he pulls these analogies out of his ass all the time
Your analogy is terrible too..Chris Evan’s didn’t retire from acting 😂
@@maddoxglow3268Endgame was supposed to be his retirement from the MCU tho
Took my exact words 😂😂😂
Ppl can call it desperate but I don’t care. I just want great MCU again
Yes they need cap back
It just means more bad films and shows 💀
RDJ and Evans are not what made the MCU great . It was the writers and directors , they could elevate ANY character if they wanted to, but they choose not too cause they’re lazy
@overdrivex34 ur wrong cap and iron man carried the MCU..of course the writers did well but who has the best trilogy in the MCU lol
@@seaniveroni5579 That’s because of the writers if Cap and Iron Man had bad writing NOBODY would care about them
I think John's analogies of Marvel not being desperate don't work. One of the main takeaways from Endgame is that it was supposed to be a send-off to Chris Evans and RDJ in the MCU. Of course people's minds change and there can be good storytelling opportunities with both of them returning, but doing it for the first Avengers movie since Endgame after their original plans with Kang Dynasty failed and after they weren't able to properly establish a new central character to the MCU definitely shows that they were running out of ideas. I say this as somebody who is pretty excited for RDJ to play Doom.
Exactly John's talking like a Disney mouthpiece
Its not absurd,, their stories finished. They had their story arch. Every comparison u made didnt have an true ending to their story, cap and iron man did. Its desperate. I'm not saying they shouldn't do it but it is
It's movies man, it's not that serious, just like with the comics, characters die then just come back again like nothing ever happened
It may not be today. It may not be tomorrow. It may not be this year. It may not be next year… but Robert Meyer Burnett will be back.
John, comparing RDJ as Doom to Tobey Maguire or Andrew Garfield coming back is not the same thing cause they returned to play their respective characters. That be like in NWH Tobey comes back but instead of being Spider-Man he’s Green Goblin then people would’ve been like "what is going on here?" "Whose idea was this?"
The football comparison just doesn’t work. Mahomes is still on the team, Evans isn’t. It’s desperation bro, yall can keep coping 😂
Ong the whole he kept yapping about Mahomes and I was like is forgetting the part where Chris Evens and RDJ retired from the franchise almost six years ago💀
not just that they retired from the characters its that they had such amazing endings and arcs
@@mrsunshine3261 John has a really bad habit of overrating his subjective opinion
Don't watch it then simple lol
You shouldn't need the OG characters of the MCU to move forward especially after Endgame which wrapped up the previous phases NICELY. So unwrapping that for a MONEY GRAB is beyond ridiculous.
They fumbled the transition so maybe this is them attempting a 2nd transition
Isn't the point of Secret Wars is having all these different characters and bringing back characters? There would be no point to do it if they didn't bring back faces from the past.
Exactly
For everyone bitchin and moaning about Chris Evans & Robert Downey Jr coming back for AVENGERS: DOOMSDAY...Did y'all really think we weren't gonna get them back for DOOMSDAY & Damn Near Everyone for SECRET WARS? These Announcements aren't shocking.
Exactly
What a dumb analogy. And why does John do dumber and dumber voice impressions when he gets pissed?
John getting pissy when people have a different opinion is always a sight to behold
You people are all acting like we didn’t know RDJ and Chris Evans were gonna return?
Most of their films outside the MCU bomb so it is usefull for them to have that MCU money because they can do other projects and not worry about them bombing or getting paid much.
Even Marvel didn’t know they were going to return. If they did they wouldn’t have concluded those characters in the way they did.
Predictions that they would return were actually just predictions of Marvel’s desperation!
THANK YOU omg
Marvel bringing back RDJ is so very clearly desperate.
But, that may not be a bad thing. Marvel might actually produce something truly great under this kinda pressure.
Edit: You’re being VERY disingenuous here with your comparisons to Michael Keaton in the Flash and Tobey Maguire in No Way Home, John. RDJ is not coming back as the same character, he’s playing Dr. Doom. It’s a stunt casting meant to make the MCU feel more relevant. Again, it could work, but it IS desperation.
@iambuhlockay8007 exactly. They aren't bringing Tony Stark back they're bringing RDJ back and that is a move directly aimed at putting butts in seats with a stunt casted Doctor Doom instead of building up the character and the story. John knows it, he's just being arbitrary.
Actually, the Patrick Mahomes analogy is dumb. The proper analogy would be if the New England Patriots decided to bring back Tom Brady after he was retired. Patrick Mahomes is not retired. Iron Man and Captain America were retired. Bringing them back is definitely desperation because nothing in phase 4 worked. It’s evident because they originally were going to go with the kang storyline until Jonathan Majors got into trouble. You can say that they’re bringing back the popular characters, but that’s only because they couldn’t figure out how to make the new characters actually work due to bad writing And bad character development.
👏
Precisely!
It is desperate. These new characters marvel introduced have not been a hit with audiences. Falcon America is going to lose money, Thundserbolts might do the same.
Its often lonely being wrong (unless youre on a podcast with yes men)
To being them back makes sense but doesnt change the power play.
I do think you're wrong about the 2 up coming movies. I think they'll make money. Especially Thunderbolts. I'm okay tmwith RDJ coming back as an actor, but the Doom thing pisses me off. We deserved a proper Doom.
The part about the "yes men" is spot on. Its like they never dissagree with anything 😂
John is wrong as usual. Marvel had other characters, directors, writers and storylines announced for Avengers 5 and now everything has flipped. Kang Dynasty to Doomsday. They're switching up because Kang failed to excite audiences as the new big bad, the scripts were bad, the Multiverse is is a disaster and now they need the Russos, RDJ and Evans to return with grand announcements to save this next Avengers film and this limping universe. It was always a dumb idea to kill off Stark and retire Rogers after Endgame. Everyone said it then and only now is Feige realizing it.
@TheGOATRammus sure Majors got in legal trouble but don't pretend that Kang was exciting audiences and building hype and anticipation for Avengers 5. He lost to Ant-Man, which was another huge MCU Marvel blunder. Majors legal issues just gave them an easy out. If Kang was a great main villain for Avengers 5, they could have simply recast Majors and called it a Kang variant but the fact that they decided to change up everything means they knew Kang was a dead end.
They 100% killed the Kang Dynasty SOLELY because Majors was found guilty. It was a business decision and had nothing to do with audience
You don't know what you have until you kill it. They saw audiences missed rdj and Evans so they brought them back. It's simple. Give people what they want make more money
They’ve dropped the lawsuit against him
I don't think he had too much of a choice. They were probably ready for a break.
I don't think brining Robert Downey Jr. as Iron Man again would be desperate. Bringing him back as Doom is desperate.
Well,people cheered when he was revieled as Doom,so they loved it.
Its the Prelude to Secret Wars. Its the MULTIVERSE. How were they NOT coming back in some capacity??
There is no way they arent using him to try to save the what-seventh edit of Brave New World.
I'm okay with him and RDJ returning, as long as they're not returning as "sacred timeline" Steve & Tony respectively. I still disagree with the "desperate" label. Desperate is actually getting RDJ and Chris Evans back as those iconic classic characters. Bringing them back as different characters or variants DOES NOT negate the development of the Sacred Timeline versions of Tony or Steve. Frankly, it gives them a chance to do something different, and let's the audience see them do something different as well. "Deadpool & Wolverine" and even "What If...?" has shown that we can see different versions of these characters presented, based on different scenarios or life experiences from the stories we've seen. That's the whole point of the MULTIVERSE. And at any rate, the idea of following a "different version" shouldn't be that big of a deal, considering the MCU's arguably most successful TV show is about a Loki VARIANT. And hell, Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3 has a different Gamora. Two characters whose respective character journeys ended in pretty definitive deaths, and yet people were okay with following their variants in an acclaimed TV show and movie. Not to mention "WandaVision" presented a new version(s?) of Vision whose death is arguably the setting-off point for said show, and is about to have HIS OWN show! And I didn't exactly hear any whining when Evans showed up in DP&W to reprise a version of his Human Torch. Considering Avengers 5 & 6 were LONG AGO confirmed to be an adaptation of "Secret Wars", a story that deals HEAVILY with the collision of Multiverses and Variants, wtf y'all people think that was gonna entail? I dunno. End of the day, we can't judge until we see the final product, but these casting announcements aren't as egregious/offensive as y'all fans make it out to be.
I never thought I would read a comment about casting OG characters having understanding. Good job. All of the comments I have seen are 'desperate' and 'MCU is dying'
No, it does reek of desperation. And comparing a sports game to a narrative is not the same. In a sports game the entire point is to win. In a narrative, the entire point is to get the viewer enthralled and create a complex/moving story. By bringing back Chris Evans as Captain America you’re proving that things won’t change. We always joked that death didn’t matter in the MCU but Tony and Steve’s sacrifice proved that the notion was false. And of course you need some new characters and veteran characters, but that’s what Thor, Hulk, and Hawkeye are for. If Evans is returning, it takes away from Mackie’s turn. Marvel made an investment with these new characters and are backing out before giving them a second chance. They aren’t taking Steve Rogers off the bench, they’re digging him out of the grave
Facts
And let feige himself tell it, they was working this before Majors legal drama
I actually do believe it’s desperate. Instead of saying it’s like playing Patrick mahomes, it’s more similar to the 49ers asking Jerry rice to come back for one more season. These 2s stories came to a good ending. But now because marvel is on a down slope they’re pulling back to what worked. Desperate, yes. Bad or good, we have to let the movie speak for itself.
Nice way to shut down any conversation by calling people that disagree idiots. What a horrible person John is
Wow, 2 huge avengers movies about the MULTIVERSE, where literally everyone will be in and John is acting like he discovered a new element
Well lots of people didn't think Chris Evans would return and to John's point he called Chris Evans coming back right after Endgame
@@benjaminvernesHe wasnt the only one, a lot of people thought that, in spite of what he wants you to think.
Scarlett johansson return - next announcement
It's a win for everyone but Mackie. Your stepdad is cool but you forget him once Daddy's home
They never should have made him the new cap, we didnt need a new cap. Falcon was awesome as his own person
Yep,we all loved him as Falcon.
This is the same guy that whines and cries about how it's the "Marvel fake death universe". Now all the sudden he's perfectly okay with lazy writing. By your logic, every movie should be an Avengers movie with the Russo Bothers bc "Why not use our most popular characters in our next movie?!?...". How about they make an actual good storyline before we worry about the cameos....is that too much to ask?
How do you know it’s lazy writing if you haven’t even seen the film 😭
Maybe this version of doom is assembling a dark version of the avengers and he will be the Hydra Captain America in a dark timeline
It will be interesting to see if they go back in time and bring back the 616 Steve to be Nomad or if they go for an alternate universe Hydra Cap
7:17 the problem is every time they did take risks they’ve always taken the lazy approach. If you pay attention to the behind the scenes of most of their newer projects you would know it goes deeper than just "Marvel’s been trying a bunch of new stuff". Marvel always went into production with a half baked script, they make changes during production and even more changes afterwards. The real problem is not have a concrete plan before cameras roll. Simply saying "this character or this project failed because they tried a bunch of new stuff" is just lazy thinking.
I respectfully disagree with John when he says that we're insane for thinking this is a bad idea. Business wise, it's a GENIUS idea. Nobody is denying that. Money is the reason that Joker 2 got made. Business wise, looking at the success of Joker 1, it would have been crazy to not even consider a sequel.
Story wise, we are not a fan of how they are putting the actor before the character. I want to see Victor von Doom as his own character, not as a Tony Stark variant. It'd be like if they announced that Elijah Wood was returning for the new Lord of the Rings movie, but he'd be playing a completely different character and the villain. Business wise, it'd be a great idea. Story wise, it'd be dumb. Just cast someone else as the character.
I don't think the new MCU movies failing has anything to do with the fact that RDJ and Chris Evans are gone. There have been some excellent ones (No Way Home, Guardians 3, Deadpool and Wolverine, etc.) They have to do with the writing and the execution. I don't think having them there is automatically going to make it a terrific movie. I'm sure it will be a $2 billion movie contender, but they seem focused on quantity over quality in this case.
Just my opinion though.
I agree that this was a business decision and not for the betterment of a story. It especially worries me that this was not the original plan since Kang was supposed to be the big bad and we know what happened there. It feels way more last minute and dare I say DESPERATE to get the attention of the audience back. There absolutely is still a chance for Doomsday and Secret Wars to be great, especially with the Russos directing. I also frankly expected RDJ and Chris Evans to come back at least for Secret Wars, but bringing in RDJ as Doom who is the new big bad is where Marvel loses me. It feels like a shortcut to rather than build up a new big bad, they just stick a familiar face on him.
Pfp had me very confused for a sec 😂
Anyone who thought they weren’t going to being these actors back for the end of the multiverse is delusional 😂😂😂
Then this definitely opens the door for Scarlet Johansson to return too, but as a Black Widow / Natasha Rominoff variant.
Also just imagine the scenes where Peter sees Downey thinking it’s Tony but it’s victor and same with Sam and cap but it’s hydra cap. How emotionally powerful those scenes would be
And the KC Chiefs analogy was so stupid
That analogy was just blatantly stupid, didn't even make sense 🤦🏻♂️
"You could not live with your own failure. Where did that bring you? Back to me." - Thanos
Chris will come back as Johnny Storm without skin. 😂
Honestly this just stinks of desperation. The character was left in a wonderful position and we don't need to bring him back. I hate the idea of bringing back old characters, especially if they die. It really devalues those moments. Why should I feel any sort of emotion when I know they will be back soon?
It's an actor not a character
Why is this news we've all guessed that with secret wars and Doomsday we all guessed that EVERYONE was gonna be in it
People need to stop judging let's see the movie first
But people know a bad idea when they hear it. HYDRA Cap, awesome. RDJ as Doom, awful idea.
An avengers movie without captain america and iron man would be awful let’s be honest. Bring everyone in!!! Let’s do it!! 😊
Captain hydra would be great maybe from the same universe as dr doom
Sorry John but you are the crazy one.. This is a pure desperation move
Technically steve never died. The desperation move was casting downey as doom
John that was a bad example wit Spider Man. Those Spider Man actors never had a send off at the times we thought they were going to have another movie. End Game did a send off to those characters as if we would never see them again. And all the talk was not bringing them back to not end that send off.
Love you but those analogies are terrible! Andrew and Tobey’s versions of Spider-Man weren’t dead.
The Rock was 29 at Wrestlemania 18,hardly washed up😆
Perfectly balanced... as all things should be.
Part of the difficulty of phase 4-5 was the movies with established characters -- Thor, Antman.
After reading the comments, watching the video and also seeing all this ridiculous discourse online, here’s my take:
John, your analogy was horrendous but you are still right. It’s like when your math teacher tells you you got the answer correct but the work you did to get there was way off lol.
Ultimately, this is the Multiverse Saga and it might be the only time we’ll ever be able to revisit some of these old characters. It was probably our last chance to see the OG X-Men cast, the OG F4 cast, Blade, Tobey and Andrew, other Fox heroes from the early naughts, etc and that includes RDJ and Chris.
There have been rumors for years now that the ending of Secret Wars will result in a soft reboot of the MCU just like it did in the comics and like DC did with Crisis. What does this mean? A brand new MCU timeline with new actors and characters being brought back so we have one huge MCU with all these heroes and villains around at the same time. That would do wonders for an eventual redo of Civil War, Infinity War, Secret Invasion, etc down the road but now we’ll also be able to adapt things like House of M, Planet Hulk, Avengers v X-Men more faithfully.
So why not use this time to bring back these absolutely beloved characters and actors for one true final time? When will the MCU be able to do the Multiverse again? That door will be practically sealed shut after Secret Wars and unlike the comics, we live in the real world where time keeps going and we all age. Capt America can be written by hundreds of different artists but Chris Evans can only do his role in this universe for a bit longer. I see zero fault in using that as we close this chapter and move into a soft reboot of the MCU where we won’t be able to justify revisiting these heroes.
Also (sorry I’ve had a lot to say on this), when have the Russos let us down when it comes to the MCU or Avengers movies? Shoot, when have they let us down when it comes to Chris Evans as Capt America? These are the guys that made Winter Soldier and Civil War which are some of the most celebrated MCU films to date.
We all know what assuming does but I’m gonna assume that if anyone knows the perfect way to preserve the legacy of this version of the character while offering something fresh and unique, it’s those guys.
I think tom brady coming back would have been a better analogy instead of the chiefs and mahomes but i see what he mean lol
Its definately desperate, but thats not a bad thing. Marvel wouldnt be doing this if they didnt NEED eyes on them. What gave those characters leaving meaning is that they wouldnt come back. That doesnt mean it wont work. John is basically talking like a producer here completely missing the artistic points people are making and concentrating on the short term gain of making money, which is fine, but thats why its desperate. Its not an artistic decision
This is the multiverse Saga. Everything is based on comics so it's only natural to bring Cap and Tony.
Lol according to this guy nobody should be dead bring everyone back!!!
Dr. Doom and Hydra Cap vs. the junior varsity Avengers B-Team.
Exactly, evil Avengers
I definitely disagree with one of the comments made on this segment. The last several movies and new characters that have been introduced have not sucked. Just because we have all set the bar so high, doesn't mean films and characters that don't reach that expectation automatically suck but that is how people have treated Phase Four and Phase Five. Personally speaking, overall, everything after the conclusion the Infinity Saga, which is Far From Home, not End Game, has pretty damn awesome. Every project for me has been good to great. I have no complaints about any of the projects. Quality and quantity have been more than satisfactory for me. People forget, we went 18 months without anything from Marvel Studios, 2 years without a film. I feel like that last 3 going on 4 years has been Marvel Stuidos making up that lost time to us....And I personally thank them for that
Hydra Cap
Can’t compare RDJ coming back to no way home. At least Tobey and Andrew were playing their previous roles. Bringing the big Marvel money maker back as another major character after a slump is a different story
I wouldn't call a hit or miss record that much of a slump. A slump for Marvel sure, but in general, not really. A lot of movies they put out post Endgame was still profitable.
05:01 COME ON JOHN 😅
You've got to admit that at some level it is kinda desperate, whether is dressed up as being genius is another thing. Marvel should have the talent available to bring the usual audiences AND new audiences to their movies without the need of bringing actors whose characters arc are basically done. If they're not writing their new characters as loveable as they used then objectively speaking we have to say there is a certain level of desperation.
06:37 yes, we all loved watching those two on the screen again. But you also have to admit that the way the MCU has written spiderman for Tom Holland doesn't exactly make it justice to the character. IN EVERY MOVIE Tom's spiderman has dependented on some "father or authority figure": Tony, Nick and Stephen. And yeah, bringing Tobey and Andrew was great and also was related to the story but Tom's version never could've done it alone, and probably it's a mistake they're gonna repeat in spiderman 4
10:00 I seriously doubt it's the same. DC announced a FLASHPOINT movie: time travel, alternate realities and stuff IT WAS OBVIOUS they were gonna bring some previous version of batman because some version of the batman actually plays a critical role in the flashpoint story, it wasn't desperate or genius, it was only logic 🤷🏻♂️
John is being completely intellectually dishonest. Chris Evans's return is DESPERATE!
The analogy with the Chiefs is WRONG! Mahomes is STILL UNDER CONTRACT, therefore, he MUST continue to play. RDJ and Evan's contracts are DONE! IF Mahomes retired and happened to attend a game with his wife, and Andy Reid ran into the stands to offer a contract to play on the spot for one game, IT WOULD BE CONSIDERED DESPERATE!
The second argument is bringing back older and old actors to reprise their roles. YES! Because it means you have NOTHING else to do with your new characters, and you are DESPERATELY trying to get a billion dollars off of ONE MOVIE, instead of having a successful small film. All superhero movies are doing nowadays are heavily reliant on CAMEOS instead of creative direction and storytelling.
Third argument MARVEL is doing NOTHING NEW! SORRY! The movies they are doing now, feel like "filler" films. That is because Marvel is TOO LAZY, to slow down, work from scratch, and build another new world. WITH A NEW STAR CHARACTER to ground everything. Instead, they have been rushing to pump out content for profit. This Avengers movie is a HAIL MARY move reliant on 2 out of work players... RDJ at Quarterback and Evans at Wide Reciever, to electrify a 4th quarter that everyone has lost interest in watching.
Please forgive my punctuation.
I totally agree on everything you said. Everything .
@@zaymm10 Thanks
I can appreciate hIs point about having to explain why Evans and RDJ's characters don't show up in a multiversal, multi-phase story. That'd be more challenging than getting them to reprise roles. One of the strongest cases for why this is a great move. The complainers know they'll enjoy seeing them back on screen, especially with the popular new faces.
I am Excited Chris Evans Be in Avengers Doomsday Movie
Perfekt 👌
Robert and Chris are back 👍👍👍👍
The sports comparison is such a bad analogy. Stories have beginnings and endings. Its okay to leave them at that. Only in comics is this seen not hacky and lazy. They had incredible story arch’s. Leave them be.
A closer sports analogy would be if a team has been struggling for years give up their young stars with some potential to bring back an older more popular vet in the hopes of selling more tickets
@ i agree, it’s like if the Pats tried to resign Brady.
@@keysersoze9592 Right, for a massive paycheck that will negatively effect the quality of the roster and coaching staff. Campea and his yes men just want paint Marvel in a better light so it can maintain its popularity and hopefully get more views. Because apathetic fans won't watch their Marvel content
Omg what if captain America became human torch and now is captain torch and he from a different universe
😂😂😂😂😂😂 Captain Torch
These comments are making my brain diarrhea everywhere.
They’re not wrong though
Chris realised...he cant draw outside mcu
None of them can. Hemsworth can’t, Johannson can’t, RDJ can’t, none of them can.
That is a good point that many people don't realise. Chris needs the MCU as much as they need him. Most of his other films bomb. Same with RDJ (Oppemheimer would have been a hit without him) and Hemsworth so many of their films outside the MCU bomb.
He did great in Knives Out
Scarlett is the only one that can!
Quentin Tarantino said it best, they aren’t stars, the characters they portray are.
"I dont think they should The Rock this" 😂
Ray with the wisdom.
The passion behind this ridiculous take is astonishing. Sport analogy here is 100% wrong.
I don't know what are they planing to do, but throughout Multiverse saga fan predictions were more fun and more creative than what we actually got.
Maybe there is a great story reason for RDJ casting as Doom but if it's just "Oh my God, he looks like Tony Stark", that's weak. Evans coming as some version of Rogers is not a slightest surprise.
They could have make big splash announcing, let's say, Chilian Murphy as Doom.
With multiple versions of everybody you just reduce the stakes of danger.
For sure there were different options to make Doom a great character he deserves to be, throughout the whole Phase of movies.
Now he is RDJ.
Hopefully they have something that will surprise us and make sense storywise.
John... No one called you stupid...
I love John but exaggerated takes is his achilles heel
Secret empire was the story with cap as a hydra agent. And it was great.
Bring thanos back too
Rogue One
Michael Keaton
Tobey and Garfield are all different than Chris Evans.
I think people are annoyed because they wrote the finale for his character in Endgame and he even said himself he’s done with the character. At least RDJ is coming back as a completely different character. I don’t mind Chris Evans coming back but I hope it isn’t as Cap. It retcons his great ending in Endgame.
PS: seeing him as Human Torch was amazing, see we don’t need him as Cap to contribute and give all the fans a great time
I think you guys just answered it: he’s coming back as “Hydra America”. It’d make sense considering Stark is returning as “Dr. Doom”. I think the Rogers we know is going to die in “Brave New World”.
One could only hope they do something that interesting.
Ooooohhh Duuuuuuddeeee!!! What if he’s just in there to be a Steve variant that we think is gonna be the guy, just to be like “it doesn’t have to be this way Tony, we were meant for better…” and then RDJ Doom just OBLITERATES him?!? 😱😭💯🔥
Literally I thought I was the only one thinking this, or maybe he could be the big ying to RDJ’s doom’s yang. Like the big player but on the good side so we can have basically another cap vs iron man lol
@ I like that too! Either way, I know the Russo’s are gonna COOK 😆
I like this show but throw was a bad segment. All the analogies from John is not considering Context
Flame on! 🔥
''I'm sorry, what!?'' :p
Nah, I’m calling old man Steve Rogers and him returning in Cap 4, not Avengers. It makes sense and old man Steve is a straight menace and more diabolical
When the last Cap trailer dropped Campea made sure to ignore it unlike the Thunderbolt trailer which dropped at the same time but with the Evans news announced and lo and behold a 20 min segment. John doesn’t like Mackie’s Cap and wants Evans’ Cap and this confirms it.
No superhero ever really stays dead or gone in the comics . So why should the movies be different ? I wouldn't be surprised after secret wars cap and Iron man are alive and well. Do we want a marvel universe with X-Men but no Iron man and cap steve Rodgers. I sure as hell don't. Even if they have to recast because of age wise i still want those characters back. Like Avengers vs X-Men would be week as hell without them. It would be like the Kansas city chiefs vs Unranked college team. Or the Rock vs Duke the Dumpster drousey lol
to me i love it the nostalgia factor was there and i hope bring back other character like thanos,scarlet witch and black widow because they added the flavor for avengers movie
The difference is the Keaton did the Batman 30 years ago, the others said they were done 5 years ago.
Even if RDJ and Evans are coming back, they shouldn't come back as their characters. Russos gave them a great ending, it would totally make that ending unworthy.
RDJ is not Iron Man any more..he is now new character..Dr Doom.
Story wise, I see Dr. Doom faking being a good Tony, but when he turns on the avengers, Sam has to turn to Steve for help because he knows “Tony” better than anyone else.
There comes a point where the story has been told and come to it’s natural conclusion. Either way I hope it’s good!
I want Chris Evan’s to play molecule man!
Had the MCU been humming along on top of its game, I'd bet RDJ isn't cast Doom. I just don't think this would be happening. Well, first of all, it wouldn't be, because they'd still be doing Kang Dynasty. John can call it stupid all he wants.
Could this be a version of Captain America from Dooms world or universe
Wow.... Finn Jones must be anxiously waiting for his call to return 😁😁
john always comes up with the weirdest comparisons like comparing movies to sports makes no sense especially using patrick mahomes that doesnt make sense
What if he's coming back to life as Johnny Storm again for a quick cameo and its actually not as big of a role as people think? 🤣
Very cool. I’m anxious to see if my Endgame theory will pan out related to that AntMan scene when he gets “de-aged.”
Ray, go find a job bro.
They basically invented a youth /immortality machine in end game before tony bright the timeliness GPS. They could make him younger with that
Bring back T’Challa too!!
Should have never been gone.
“Desperate” not the right word (I just can’t use that word and Disney in the same sentence) and of course its a brilliant move that has already translated into a win with Chris Evan’s now trending. But I hope we aren’t saying it’s not a fair question to ask…were these two characters always in the plan? It not, than why now? Interest in marvel doesn’t exactly have the same pop in recent year, id think most would agree with that? Of course it’s great they are back and hell yeah it’s gonna end up being a BIG win for them. Any biz would do this regardless of the industry, or product. BUT it’s also great because it helps with concern disney may of had regarding interest level. I don’t think that is out of the realm of logic to ask that question. I just think we are mad about the word “desperate”
Or maybe this is where Cap went when he traveled thru time with the stones.
What I hate the most when you have a dumb rant, that nobody in the studio sees that and helps him back to earth 🙏🏿
Well said. They just let him bury himself while pretending he's the only one who knew they'd be back.
It felt like he left but he's coming back
It was obvious but I‘m really surprised that they just announce that on Tuesday like it’s nothing. Would be awesome in the trailer to reveal.