As a guy who wrestled (still wrestle actually) and does Judo, I like to say that a Uchi Mata a day keeps the wrestlers away. Either that or a Sumi Gaeshi. If your base is Judo though and you cross train with wrestlers then you’re gonna eventually have to fight wrestling with wrestling and Judo with Judo because wrestling is about the grit, grind, and aggression. One thing I picked up in wrestling is to never stop moving, that’s what I put above all the other grappling arts.
@@stanclark3992 I didn’t say anything about grinding to beat grinding. I said you will have to fight wrestling with wrestling, and that wrestling is about grinding (and many other things) from a philosophical standpoint, ESPECIALLY on the floor. I’ve seen Judo black belts get tapped at will by BJJ blue belts on the ground, whereas I’ve also seen Division 1 wrestlers with very little submission knowledge (few months of BJJ), straight up maul and destroy BJJ purple and even brown belts. Reread my comment.
@@stanclark3992 a lot of what you said makes zero sense, ESPECIALLY what you said about not cross training with wrestlers (I’m sorry, that’s just a dumb statement, not saying you are dumb, but that comment was indeed dumb) but I do agree on a few things. Yes, you can use Judo to finesse a wrestler who is over aggressive and reckless, after all, you’re talking to someone who trains in all three (wrestling judo and BJJ) arts. Judo however is largely a “reaction” based art unlike wrestling which is largely a “initiative” art that also has reactionary principles as well. Sure MMA is a different sport but hear me out, examples of Judokas finessing wrestlers in MMA include Rousey vs Tate, Emelianenko vs Randleman, Emelianenko vs Sonnen, Lombard vs Dolloway (that one ended in a KO but Dolloway was not good enough to impose his wrestling on Lombard anyway). In all of these examples, the wrestlers were over aggressive and their forward momentum was used against them by the Judoka. There are also examples of Judoka getting beaten by wrestlers in MMA because the wrestlers were patient and not over aggressive. The main problem and flaw with your argument is that you’re assuming that just because a wrestler is naturally tenacious doesn’t mean that a wrestler will always be reckless with their balance for the Judoka to easily manipulate, ESPECIALLY against a Greco Roman wrestler (I personally have a background in Freestyle but have done a little bit of Greco) who will be a much bigger threat to a Judoka than a Freestyle wrestler, despite the fact that Freestyle wrestlers are far more dynamic and versatile with their takedowns than their Greco Roman counterparts. Secondly, you’re ONLY thinking about the standup portion of grappling and completely ignoring the ground aspect of grappling. The Judoka of today don’t stand a chance on the ground against the wrestlers of today. Why? Because wrestlers are just as equally dangerous on the feet as they are on the ground, whereas most Judoka are not. Wrestlers are generally better athletes than Judoka are because wrestling workouts are far more rigorous and physically demanding than Judo workouts are. Because many if not most Kodokan Judo clubs neglect Newaza in their practice, not to mention in competition Newaza time is limited depending on the referee, in which most Judoka will use the guard to stall until they can get stood up whereas most wrestlers will use their grit to grind through high paced scrambles in order to assert dominant position. Let’s take into fact that some Judoka cross train in BJJ to supplement their Newaza for Judo competition (which is fine and works really well) but also look at the fact that even BJJ black belts have a very difficult time sweeping high level wrestlers on the ground, and that the only real advantage that BJJ and Judo has over wrestling is that both arts train submissions while wrestling for the most part doesn’t. Wrestlers who have been exposed to submissions and learn how to defend them (along with guard passing) create problems for both Judo and Jiu Jitsu fighters in both submission grappling and MMA. Catch Wrestlers train submissions but the CACC community doesn’t have the talent pool that the amateur wrestling, Judo, and Jiu Jitsu communities have.
@@stanclark3992 another thing I found to be inconsistent in your argument is that all you’re talking about is technique, theory, methodology, etc which I am not denying are important because they have their place, but you are largely neglecting conditioning and cardio. As my old wrestling coach used to say, “even if you’re fighting someone who’s better than you, the longer the fight goes, you will slowly gain the advantage if your conditioning is better than theirs”. There is a reason why wrestlers have consistently dominated MMA, aside from being able to dictate where the fight goes, they are in tip top damn near peak physical condition. When I say “grit” and “grind”, I don’t think you understand that it is in a wrestler’s nature to tire you out, grind you out, and slowly wear you down in the most miserable way possible. In wrestling, we are taught to bring you into the deep end of the ocean and to smother you. Where do you think a Judo black belt like Khabib gets his top pressure from? Again, you say to not cross train with other grappling arts yet you are largely ignorant of what wrestlers are actually capable of. The reason why Khabib was so successful was because he mixes his chain wrestling with Judo sequences. When wrestlers were getting submitted by Jiu Jitsu black belts in the early 90s, especially in MMA, it was because wrestlers didn’t understand the concept and the dangers of the closed and open guards. So what did wrestlers do? They crossed trained in Jiu Jitsu, learned the guard, learned how to beat it, and have largely dominated MMA since then. Wrestlers understood the importance of learning and cross training in order to evolve as grapplers and fighters. Also, Chadi probably covered it on his channel already but in case he hasn’t, during the 19th and 20th centuries, there was a rivalry between Catch Wrestling and Judo. There were many style vs style match ups between the two, but the catch wrestlers were victorious. In fact they were so victorious that many of the Kodokan Judoka that Kano himself sent to fight the Catch Wrestlers, ended up leaving Japan and traveling to western countries in order to learn Catch Wrestling in which they Judoka would eventually bring back to Japan. Don’t even get me started on the leg grab ban in Judo, and even before that, many wrestlers who were competing in Judo were hitting so many blast doubles on Judoka by simply shooting in on them without tying up, that the IJF changed the rules to where you could only shoot from the tie up before banning leg grabs altogether. Need I also remind you that Jigoro Kano himself was a student of the game as well? Where do you think Kata Guruma came from? Even many top level Judoka today have incorporated wrestling turtle attacks and turnovers into their game in order to get pins.
@@stanclark3992 now you’re backpedaling. Both wrestling and Judo are both sports and martial arts. Every single country on this planet has a wrestling culture that goes back to ancient times and both wrestling and boxing are the oldest hand to hand martial arts in existence dating back to prehistoric times. If we are talking about self defense purposes, I’d give wrestling the SLIGHT edge over Judo for one reason and one reason only. Wrestling is easy to do but difficult to master. Judo on the other hand has a very high learning curve. If you take two children, and put one of them in wrestling and the other in Judo, the child who is in wrestling will progress at his craft faster than the kid in Judo because wrestling techniques and concepts are easy to grasp and apply while it takes a long time if not years to get even remotely decent at Judo. Both are effective for self defense, but the kid who wrestled for six months will be able to take a kid down who has no grappling experience at all at will. The kid with only six months of Judo will have a tougher time but still may get the job done against another kid who has no grappling experience. Also, I’m sorry but you’re full of shit. Judo is very much “reactive”. How often do you see a Judoka get an ippon on their first attack, at any skill level? That almost never happens. Even with proper kuzushi, as you said earlier (and now contradicted yourself) that many Judo concepts revolve around using ones momentum against them whether it be forwards, backwards, or side to side. You previously stated that you would use a wrestler’s momentum against them if you fought one, hence “reactive”. This is why most Judoka threaten foot sweeps and trips and use Osoto, Ouchi, Kosoto, Kouchi, etc to set up their bigger throws because in order to defend these attacks, you have to move your feet out of the way which often breaks your balance or exposes your weak plane, which allows the tori to hit a bigger throw (koshi waza, tachi waza, sutemi waza, etc) on the uke, thus Judo being as I said, “largely reactive”. Yes, you can initiate Judo on an untrained person and not have to worry about using sequences but initiating against another Judoka is most likely not going to work. You can easily force wrestling but you can’t “force” Judo, that’s the difference between the two. You can get away with having bad wrestling but you will pay for having bad Judo. This is not my “bias”, this is purely fact. I understand when to wrestle, when to use Judo, and when to use Jiu Jitsu when I grapple. Having cross trained and been around many high level grapplers of different backgrounds, I have a much wider spectrum and grasp on grappling than you do from a technical and methodical standpoint since you literally advocate against cross training. Sounds like you have an ego that you haven’t left at the door yet, which is ironically, very “un-Judo-like” of you.
Judo has absolutely regressed, and while the current generation of judokas have not felt the effects of the leg grab ban as significantly, future generations will suffer greatly. The further we get from when these techniques are permitted in a tournament setting, the worse judokas will become as the skills involved in using and defending against these techniques won't be employed in training. Time is precious. To be successful, judokas need to be efficient in training. That means focusing on legitimate, legal techniques and tactics. The IJF has done the art a great disservice in pursuit of TV airplay and aesthetics.
I disagree. Just because you can’t grab legs anymore hasn’t differed the sport or takedown defence. We now use the same techniques like kata Garuma revised without legs
@@felixkernot7378 You are living in a dream world. With each new generation of judokas, the leg-related takedown defense will get worse and worse, unless the athlete deliberately competes in wrestling. How many judokas are competent enough in the Scissor takedown to use it in a competition? Virtually none. Why? Because it's been illegal for decades. The banning of leg grabs has opened a gaping hole in the art. Instructors may gloss over it for early belt tests, but competency will diminish over time.
@@alanrussette2819 leg takedowns aren’t the be all and end all. Especially in street fights. If you need to learn just learn haha doesn’t need to apart of the syllabus of every martial art
@@felixkernot7378 leg takedowns are at least a third of the offense a grappler has. They aren't everything, but they're a lot Banning leg grabs will someday render judo obsolete.
Remove all the rules and 2 arts basically looks kinda the same. Kano took his time adding wrestling moves into old Jujutsu which created Judo and future generations removed them from competitions for silly reasons. He would be very dissapointed
@@jansettler4828 Grappling is grappling. Judo players back when legs attack is still around didn't stand so low like today's wrestler, you could tackle the legs without diving deep. Pure Judo is basically japanese Wrestling already, trying to make it looks different from western counterpart just for competition is dumb and ended up harming the martial art in the process
This video is an incredible coincidence. I literally just started judo classes about 4 or 5 weeks ago, however I wrestled for 12 years (5 years NCAA div II), and have been doing jiujitsu (gi and no gi) for almost two years. Today, after class, to my sensei, I expressed my puzzlement of the judo stance being upright (albeit noting that greco stances are upright as well). We had a decent discussion of it, and he was saying that its easier to throw a wrestler because they're off balanced because they're bent over and leaning into each other. However, in my experience its generally not a good idea to be either leaning into your opponent or to be bent over even in folkstyle/freestyle wrestling. Sure, the stance is lower, but you shouldn't be curling your back or have your weight forward; your back ought to be straight, your head up, and your weight behind you (its not so easy to down block your front leg if you have a lot of weight on it, which is why leaning is generally not good, additionally its hard to generate power for any kind of attack if your weight is forward). I don't think the key to a good wrestling stance is being bent over, rather its having your knees bent so that you're low to the ground. Bending your knees causes your butt to be behind you, so your head comes forward a bit to counter-balance your butt; however, I consider a wrestling stance quite balanced. However, it kind of clicked for me when he said that wrestlers have a good base, but not good balance (I think I get what he's saying, but instead of balance I'd use the word position). A lot of the attacks in judo I've noticed have to do with pulling an arm of your opponent so that they step into you, in wrestling this generally isn't possible because there is no clothing to grip so that you can block an attack from your opponent (and therefore most throws are done chest to chest, or with a head and arm lock). So while I think I have an idea at what he's getting at, I still feel like a low stance could be beneficial because it can be quite difficult to get your hips underneath your opponent with their knees bent (i.e. in greco you often do see competitors lower their stances, even if momentarily, to defend attacks like high dives/body locks and underhooks, and you see a similar reaction in mma especially against the cage). I'm eager to explore this topic more because I think it is quite profound. Especially since the lower you are the more difficult it is to throw someone (i.e. if I were to lay completely flat, it is way more difficult to pick me up and throw me; this is why I'm quite confused as to why a wrestling stance is considered "imbalanced"). I'm not saying that I aim to prove judo is wrong, but I think its very interesting to highlight the different circumstances where stances are good and bad. It seems that the less rules and restrictions there are in a competition, the harder it is to come up with general principles, but maybe that's obvious. This is the very reason why I wanted to learn judo in the first place and see the different perspectives of things. Sorry for the dissertation. Grappling is the biggest interest in my life.
Hey, just wanted to say I find your "dissertation" fascinating and I'm eager for a follow-up if you have learned something about this in the year since you wrote this :)
You made a lot of great points, but I do want to assure you of something. I know it's been a whole year, and hopefully you've been able to stay with Judo. You say that it becomes difficult to go from standing position to getting your hips lower than your opponent's, while this is true, most forward throws require that you get your hips lower, so that's something that is practiced very very often. Eventually you learn how to turn around and squat down low enough as a second nature. It also helps that when you are worrying about getting your opponent off balance forwards, they ALSO tend to become "taller", essentially standing in their tippy toes, which makes getting lower than them easier.
I do Judo, BJJ and wrestling. I find the difference is the gi and gripping. In Judo, when I've done randori with wrestlers who take a low stance, I find it much easier to get an upper lapel and sleeve grip. Since the grips in Judo are essential for successful techniques, gaining the superior grip can negate a lot of the wrestlers leg shoot techniques. I'm a life long Judo player, but only started BJJ a few years ago. When I first started no gi BJJ, I was vulnerable to leg shoots (very frustrating); my posture changed some (lower), but mostly I learned to shut down most leg shoots with gripping (neck tie up-clinch). When I do no gi BJJ, my initial stance is lower to guard my legs, but once in the clinch, I'm more standing where I've had decent success with hip throws and foot sweeps.
You have a decent analysis of the differences, but I think the biggest thing you are missing is you are evaluating the stances on their defensiveness statically, but outside of uchi komi, that's not what you're going to experience. Of course, if someone is standing still in a wrestling crouch, it's going to be very awkward to get in and under their hips for a hip throw, but... that's when you just blast them with a sideways osoto or a tai otoshi or a sasae, because the wrestling crouch has their body braced against movement in one direction- making it much more exposed to being moved the other. Now, once you get someone moving, they will be more upright, or at least extended, at which point they are basically in the position that you would put someone in when demonstrating you kuzushi. That's why Uchi Mata is like... **the** wrestler killer.
Every time I start rolling in BJJ, I always do the upright position, pulled off a few sasae tsuri komi ashi's, man I miss being on the mats, glad you're back at it bro 😊.
There's nothing forcing you to get down on your hands and knees and roll bjj Style... I hover on my feet and use sakuraba style guard passes after they make an attempt at my legs. If you're concentrating on escaping the leg lock it's pretty easy to jump out
Shizen Tai is designed for real fight, Judo has a lot of strikes thats not convenient stay in Jigo Tai unless you are in very close contact. I think that’s why complete judokas have to think about this (for those who wants to learn the traditional way and not just competition)
I did some sparring/randori with wrestllers. They did not fight as Chael describes. They had two attacks: 1 : The double leg. 2.: Try to take the back and then suplex or arm drag. Both attacks were pretty easy to Stuff and I had one guy walk head first into hadaka jime from above. Judo isn't defenseless At All against the classic wrestler.
I wanna say this is a no brainer... Bc there is a brown belt ( actually just got his black belt) his first yr in wrestling he went all states which is a big deal. And he's not the only example. So, by following that logic Judo obviously compliments wrestling very well. I think Judo is more well rounded, I think it's much more martial in its aggression and application. Judo is a very well rounded form of grappling. And ppl can pick and choose in Judo. Some people focus and Newaza, most focus on the tachiwaza. And, some even out the 2 aspects of Judo. The more well rounded ur Judo the better overall grappler you will become.
Judo needs muaythai in mma just to check everything off but the biggest one would be how they clinch (not ufc thai clinch, real thai clinch in muay thai). You develop neck strength which is the major disadvantage of judo because of the gi and the positioning when you don't have your dogi, plus unlike greco, you're allowed to sweep. Stance are almost the same, less adjustments needed. Muaythai clinch offers alot more than the 2 hands on the head, it's its own art and it perfectly compliments judo and vice versa
With the Jacket it is generally preferable to have an upright posture. Without the bent over posture is going to be a bit more advantageous. When you are talking about a fight with strikes, you need to be a bit more upright in order to punch and kick effectively but not as much as Judo or Greco
Ultimately, Judo is Greco Roman wrestling in clothing with more devestating throws (because of said clothing), the ability to use your legs to get sweeps and throws, and a ground game that relies on dominating the transition between stand up and the ground, pinning, and submissions. Anyone who looks at that and says it's bad for self defence is either trolling for clicks (looking at you, chael) or just an idiot
@@sleepytwiggaming I had been doing old-school Judo since childhood and when I started wrestling I found several of the throws to be extremely effective...Daki wakare and Tawara gaeshi are extremely useful
I think we also shouldn’t conflate mma with real world self defense. The judo throw that someone can shrug off in a match on a canvas fighting ring, will be devastating on a parking lot or concrete sidewalk where a lot of self defense scenarios take place.
I still hope judo rules would be reversed to allow leg grabs again and to make sure that takedown/throws won’t yield points if the attacker ends up in disadvantageous position. Judo has such a great techniques, but from self-defense perspective it’s approach is often too short-term since a judoka assumes the referee will rescue him after 7 seconds. Bring back the real judo.
if you have a good sprawl you can wrestle very effectively from a standing position, American folk style wrestling teaches a different wrestling posture than freestyle and specifically Muslim Russian freestyle has a different stance yet. freestyle Judo is genius cuz it forces you to Grapple from a standing position which is critical for your MMA crossover potential whereas the wrestling bent-over stances are suicide in MMA. Muay Thai Judo and wrestling all combined equal MMA unless you have a good MMA gym... then you don't have to fool around with all that
Does sumo stance also enters on the judo stance? Because sumo stance is a judo stance but more squatted down. I think sumo stance is best of both worlds, because in sumo they have something that is like strike, at least the most amount of strike that I have seen in any grappling fight, and they can't touch the ground. For self defense, I think is the best answer. Becauss if you can finish any fight without falling while throwing. You have time to engage with maybe another person or flee. If you fall together, there may be another person or you won't have time to disentangle and flee. Also, talking about leg grab defense. A couple of years ago I was in a BJJ class as a judo black belt and the teacher wanted be to help a student on takedowns because he was practicing for competition. I was years without any leg grab training but knew that BJJ prefer to use leg grab to take it down. He tried twice to leg grab me and in reflex, both times I used tawara gaeshi as a defense, throwing him behind me and rolling. Ending up on top. I know. I am the weird sumo guy. I plan on making a sumo focuses channel for my country.
Yeah. I practice both. But I just can put my finger on the difference. It looks like the sumo stance lack lateral movement but I don't know. While you don't need to be squatted all the way down, you can also use a judo stance in sumo. But it's useful as a defense
@@Chadi literally what i was going to say. depending on what sumo stance you are using, you might not be able slip punches, throw kicks, or move sideways with enough speed.
Wrestlers can chatter about bent stature until they get choked, such as hadakajime. And oddly enough, all those interstyles games, judo vs wrestling, never take into account the locks and choking, I wonder why:)
I feel like this is a little unfair. While its definitely true that a wrestling stance is more susceptible to a guillotine choke its not like you just have to "let" someone reach over your head for the choke. Sure, you got to be very careful of chokes when you go for a double leg shot (and even a single leg can leave you vulnerable to collar chokes); however that's not really wrestling specific since double legs and single legs were in judo as well. I'm more interested in the consequences of a low stance vs erect stance when it comes to defending a throw. After talking to my sensei about this, I feel that while a low wrestling stance is valid for defending a throw, it is much more susceptible to being imbalanced.
Or just soccer kicked in the face, it’s not a good stance that’s why wrestlers use kickboxing stances in mma. Judo stance is more similar to a Karate or kickboxing stance
I have to disagree on Chaels position of greco vs other wrestlers edge is based on posture. There are multiple reasons greco to mma vs free/folk to mma are more successful, but the main factors are a necessity for greco to have solid hand fighting in the clinch. In other types of wrestling there are more variables but that allows wrestlers to become good at a variety of skills, yet lack milage in serious handfighting. This skill transfers better to mma and sd. In both mma and sd the hands are the primary threats to include extensions there of like weapons. The sprawl is a critical grappling skill. Yet the first line of defense is footwork and range. The upright posture provides superior overall mobility. The second the upper limbs/hands to include grips and ties. The third would be the Sprawl. For grappling defense the level change ties integrally in to the sprawl. For mma and sd to include wrestler vs judoka grappling only, an immediate level change is a very simple defense upon visual cue of potential wrestling leg shot. On top of sprawl. Sumi. Tomoe. Sankaku. Uchimata. Kimura are great shot counters.
This is the first time I’ve seen someone analyzed takedown defense this well. Even as a former high school wrestler myself and a judo brown belt, I’ve never looked at takedown defense this way because I was always so focused on sprawling. Granted I only wrestled for one season so my knowledge of wrestling is limited.
If you wanna go for single or double you can't just shoot in like nothing. You need a set up. A set up can be everything, punches, kickes, grabbing the neck, grabbing the wrist, trying to snatch the other leg to get your targeted leg, if you shoot without a set up you'll get sprawled. Yes you can shoot in directly if the distance is really close but it won't happen without a set up if the distance is middle to long
Chadi... you said you don't know what context leg grab should be brought back. Next time you talk to Neal Adams propose this idea I have thought about since the rule changes. Leg grabs should be brought back in a couple scenarios either three times during a match or only three times during golden score. Clearly it can be done any number of times 1,2,or3. So for example, the third attempt if it doesn't succeed should lead to immediate loss. What do you think of these rule changes? In my view it does honor to both judo's present State as well as its past and strikes a fair balance and will make for an exciting match.
For anyone interested to see someone aplicate judo in folkstyle wrestling at high level check out jason morris he was judo olympic silver medalist who compete against D1 wrestlers in college his style is very unique .
there is an old video out there of a judo kid that went all the way and won the championships in wrestling. all of the techniques are a no gi judo variation and his posture was upright.
While Judo excels in newaza, I'd say wrestling develops self-defense ability faster because it teaches you how to take people down, stat on top, and avoid being taken down. And unlike Judo, it doesn't rely on gi-grabbing to set up throws, which is more realistic for the street.
Also judo used to have a lot of HIKI KOMI GAESHI variations that totally twist a leg-shooting attacker into a knot. Alas, I believe it is now a forbidden technique because of several reasons. It's not particularly risky, but it CAN be painful if one wants it to be.
No gi ,wrestling stance has the edge, with the gi,i always go for a Georgian grip or sprawl. Usually the georgian grip connects really fast and you got a nice sumi gaeshi.
An important topic. Nicely covered I argue for shizentai for a different reason- disengagement. Being able to reestablish correct distance is essential. Can’t do that bent over.
Hi chadi hope you're well could you give us a bit information about Iranian werstling (free style or Roman) usually they first or second in world's championship. Thanks
Did Neil Adams say who got the other person down when he took off the gi and wrestle Did he take the wrestler down or did the wrestler take him down and win?
It's all Ying and Yang. (I'm not a martial artist of any kind, but I do play ping-pong and tennis). High stance is good for mobility, low stance is good for stability. Good for one thing is bad for the other thing. That is the nature of fighting. It's all a rock-paper-scissors game. Ronda's judo beat Misha Tate's wrestling (who beats Sara McMann), Holly Holm's kickboxing and judo defense beats Ronda, Misha Tate's wrestling beats Holly Holm. The poker song is a good lesson for all things. "You've got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, and know when to run . . . "
I suppose that dojos that train using the kosen rule set might have a bit of an advantage. They should be able to adjust quicker than dojos that are heavily focused on IJF rules.
I think Freestyle Judo and Kosen Judo Rules are the way to go, unless you are an aspiring international or Olympic level Judo player. It provides a larger repertoire of technique options and allows the average person to train in the way they want to have fun, get in shape and defend themselves. Which frankly is why most people train anyway, very few of us have Olympic aspirations, so why train under a rules set that makes that assumption.
Pray for me yall, I have no judo or wrestling training and I'm about go to an open judo mat night(?) I'm just watching every video I possibly can to see some techniques
Judo is still a very dangerous art don't let the news rules change fool you . The only time I miss leg grabs it is not even for throws like more gari, te guruma or kata guruma. I miss them for my combos .
Yeah even as a former high school wrestler myself, I used to be frustrated at the lack of leg grabs in judo when I first started but over time I’ve started to become more comfortable with seoi nage and ashi waza and nowadays I find that wrestling helps more with newaza than standup. I find that the gi just opens up a whole new subset of attacks while simultaneously restricting a subset of attacks as well. For me the gi opened seoi nage and tomoe nage but pretty much killed ura nage and I also find it extremely difficult to shoot for a single leg or double leg whenever me and the guys would screw around after practice to try to take shots on each other.
Just choose whatever is available to you. In my case, my country has little to no wrestling at all, BUT judo is more widely available. Hence why I take judo, even though I do think I prefer wrestling a little bit more. BJJ is still the most popular one, though.
7:7 this is not a sprawl! He did defend with his hip, but that not all. You cannot just lay down on and call it sprawl. Its very important to stuff the head (control the head), and continue not just freeze there 😄
I feel like this is an extreme overstatement. Sprawling is really the last line of defense, and honestly many times I don't really even need to take a full penetration shot in the gi, because I can just lower my level and grab some fabric on the pants and step into a single leg. I really feel like one of the big differences between wrestling and judo/bjj is that there's a lot more shitty wrestling out there than shitty judo/bjj. You might find the following shocking, but when I was wrestling in high school there were some very small schools in the area that had wrestling coaches that had 0 wrestling experience. Try getting an IJF or IBJJF certified with zero experience, it just doesn't happen like it does in wrestling.
@@insidetrip101 makes sense, i just never really see the need to not sprawl, its still high risk high reward forsure, best case i get a guillotine,anaconda,darce etc, and finish, worst case i land in bottom side control, then theres the not as sever but still disadvantaged guard or halfguard, most people are content to do the greco/judo underhook overhook fight, like you said lazy shots are rampant in bjj schools and i def take advantage if someone does, wrestlers on avg have way more physicality
The arguments are that for striking it's better to be upright to move faster and not put your head in danger, against drop attacks, the defense still exists
@@Chadi well yeah. I guess we share the same point. I would like to add that it is possible to be athletic and mobile in that bent over position. You can look at wrestlers like Jordan Burroughs and frank chimizo as examples. Either way, that position is not ideal in a full mma context.
@@QuantumMechanic_88 Chael Sonnen is a retired mma fighter, affectionately known as uncle chael by his fans, who become popular when he had his beef with Anderson Silva due to his charisma and trash talk. His fighting style is to wrestle with his opponent and ground and pound them.
They are but they have better brakes than ice hockey players and I agree with you, it's an exercise in futility talking about two different sports. Soccer, Basketball or Handball who wins? Well the soccer guy wins at soccer and so on and so forth.
I think you're quite right. This might seem obvious, but I really don't think its so easy to see because usually when we compete we have these restrictive rule sets that end up "protecting" us from certain kinds of scenarios. This has the effect of us coming up with very good general principles that don't necessarily translate once we remove some of those restrictions. Its one of those things that sound obvious when it is said, but isn't so easy to see when we're looking at the myriad of details that exist in different grappling disciplines.
@@insidetrip101 the video talks about this under the selfdefense and MMA contexts not competition under an specific discipline, so there are not many rules holding you back.
@@AzureWiler That's true, but there are still rules in both self defense and MMA. Too often (just in my opinion) we think of self defense as a "no rules" fight, but unless you're living on a desert island absent any government what you do in defense is always going to be judged post hoc at the very least. But even if you're not considering the laws governing self defense, there are many self defense situations where you might not want to kill or maim your aggressor. Imagine that you're being attacked by your uncle that just had too much to drink on Christmas, you might not want to heel hook the guy and bust up his knee. You still want to keep him from hurting anyone, but you probably still care for the guy. In MMA, there are obvious rules as well, admittedly less rules, but there are still rules, and I think its important to keep that in mind at all times.
@@insidetrip101 bro we are just talking about your posture and fighting stance, not how you decide to hurt your aggresor. The law doesn't care about your stace but it does about how bad you hurt your aggresor and some times it sucks, example you can be a bouncer and if the idiot is so drunk he trips on his own feet and breaks his head, you better have security cameras because you are going to get in trouble anyways even if all you did was putting your hands between you and the other guy blows to not get hurt (this actually happened in my place)
@@AzureWiler I'm sorry. I didn't mean to induce any hostilities. However, I do see your stance as distinctly related to your goal, which is why I find it an interesting concept and think the parameters surrounding the encounter are important relative to your stance. I'm sorry, I didn't intend on frustrating you.
@@Chadi Every serious student of grappling should put in some time cross training in wrestling. Greco handwork has allowed me to do well in a clinch and beat out a lot of other grapplers in handfighting. Judoka would benefit for positional reasons and handfighting on the top end.
Judo and Wrestling compliment each other. But......wrestlers always get choked and arm barred. Wrestlers pinning concerns a flat press (touch fall) whereas in Judo it's just a timed control (osaekomi). In my experience, Wrestlers were always better conditioned. Then they go up against a boxer or kickboxer. Boxers are best conditioned and they punch you in the nose.
Neil Addams said in the video that when he took the jacket off he got mauled by the wrestler. Doesn't this show that wrestlers have the advantage without no gi?
@@Chadi I do both judo and wrestling. In my opinion when doing no gi you need to do some wrestling to get the setups and control ties in order to execute the judo throws. setups like elbow pass, arm drag ,snap down, headlock,two on one and etc... Just doing gi the setup and control tie is completely different..I wish we in judo also did atlesst one training session a week without gi to practise this. What is your opinion Chadi?
@@alanrussette2819 I'm pretty sure - like in any other martial arts - those techniques have "real names". Which you e.g. could google. And: I'm not a wrestler.
Collar grips make it easy to stop single legs lmao keep it a bean sumi geshi shuts down wrestling......its not that judo regressed the moves are there we arnt using dem what incentive do they have to make outsiders better my humble opinion😔💯🙏🏽
@@pahtashow j'ai montré que le sprawl est toujours vivant dans le judo, si un lutteur essaye un double les judokas ont le réflexe, et dans la rue tu reste droit.
Hey I know let's do a away with suicide as well throws cause we don't want risk giving our backs now people, just thanks IJF. not the judo I learnt, my Ne-waza is pretty good thanks. they are killing judo with this stuff, In an Era where MMA is the dominant force and judo is respected as a practice in MMA. talk about suicidal, this could actually kill the art off all together.
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As a guy who wrestled (still wrestle actually) and does Judo, I like to say that a Uchi Mata a day keeps the wrestlers away. Either that or a Sumi Gaeshi. If your base is Judo though and you cross train with wrestlers then you’re gonna eventually have to fight wrestling with wrestling and Judo with Judo because wrestling is about the grit, grind, and aggression. One thing I picked up in wrestling is to never stop moving, that’s what I put above all the other grappling arts.
100%
@@stanclark3992 I didn’t say anything about grinding to beat grinding. I said you will have to fight wrestling with wrestling, and that wrestling is about grinding (and many other things) from a philosophical standpoint, ESPECIALLY on the floor. I’ve seen Judo black belts get tapped at will by BJJ blue belts on the ground, whereas I’ve also seen Division 1 wrestlers with very little submission knowledge (few months of BJJ), straight up maul and destroy BJJ purple and even brown belts. Reread my comment.
@@stanclark3992 a lot of what you said makes zero sense, ESPECIALLY what you said about not cross training with wrestlers (I’m sorry, that’s just a dumb statement, not saying you are dumb, but that comment was indeed dumb) but I do agree on a few things.
Yes, you can use Judo to finesse a wrestler who is over aggressive and reckless, after all, you’re talking to someone who trains in all three (wrestling judo and BJJ) arts. Judo however is largely a “reaction” based art unlike wrestling which is largely a “initiative” art that also has reactionary principles as well. Sure MMA is a different sport but hear me out, examples of Judokas finessing wrestlers in MMA include Rousey vs Tate, Emelianenko vs Randleman, Emelianenko vs Sonnen, Lombard vs Dolloway (that one ended in a KO but Dolloway was not good enough to impose his wrestling on Lombard anyway). In all of these examples, the wrestlers were over aggressive and their forward momentum was used against them by the Judoka. There are also examples of Judoka getting beaten by wrestlers in MMA because the wrestlers were patient and not over aggressive.
The main problem and flaw with your argument is that you’re assuming that just because a wrestler is naturally tenacious doesn’t mean that a wrestler will always be reckless with their balance for the Judoka to easily manipulate, ESPECIALLY against a Greco Roman wrestler (I personally have a background in Freestyle but have done a little bit of Greco) who will be a much bigger threat to a Judoka than a Freestyle wrestler, despite the fact that Freestyle wrestlers are far more dynamic and versatile with their takedowns than their Greco Roman counterparts. Secondly, you’re ONLY thinking about the standup portion of grappling and completely ignoring the ground aspect of grappling. The Judoka of today don’t stand a chance on the ground against the wrestlers of today. Why? Because wrestlers are just as equally dangerous on the feet as they are on the ground, whereas most Judoka are not. Wrestlers are generally better athletes than Judoka are because wrestling workouts are far more rigorous and physically demanding than Judo workouts are. Because many if not most Kodokan Judo clubs neglect Newaza in their practice, not to mention in competition Newaza time is limited depending on the referee, in which most Judoka will use the guard to stall until they can get stood up whereas most wrestlers will use their grit to grind through high paced scrambles in order to assert dominant position.
Let’s take into fact that some Judoka cross train in BJJ to supplement their Newaza for Judo competition (which is fine and works really well) but also look at the fact that even BJJ black belts have a very difficult time sweeping high level wrestlers on the ground, and that the only real advantage that BJJ and Judo has over wrestling is that both arts train submissions while wrestling for the most part doesn’t. Wrestlers who have been exposed to submissions and learn how to defend them (along with guard passing) create problems for both Judo and Jiu Jitsu fighters in both submission grappling and MMA. Catch Wrestlers train submissions but the CACC community doesn’t have the talent pool that the amateur wrestling, Judo, and Jiu Jitsu communities have.
@@stanclark3992 another thing I found to be inconsistent in your argument is that all you’re talking about is technique, theory, methodology, etc which I am not denying are important because they have their place, but you are largely neglecting conditioning and cardio. As my old wrestling coach used to say, “even if you’re fighting someone who’s better than you, the longer the fight goes, you will slowly gain the advantage if your conditioning is better than theirs”. There is a reason why wrestlers have consistently dominated MMA, aside from being able to dictate where the fight goes, they are in tip top damn near peak physical condition. When I say “grit” and “grind”, I don’t think you understand that it is in a wrestler’s nature to tire you out, grind you out, and slowly wear you down in the most miserable way possible. In wrestling, we are taught to bring you into the deep end of the ocean and to smother you. Where do you think a Judo black belt like Khabib gets his top pressure from?
Again, you say to not cross train with other grappling arts yet you are largely ignorant of what wrestlers are actually capable of. The reason why Khabib was so successful was because he mixes his chain wrestling with Judo sequences. When wrestlers were getting submitted by Jiu Jitsu black belts in the early 90s, especially in MMA, it was because wrestlers didn’t understand the concept and the dangers of the closed and open guards. So what did wrestlers do? They crossed trained in Jiu Jitsu, learned the guard, learned how to beat it, and have largely dominated MMA since then. Wrestlers understood the importance of learning and cross training in order to evolve as grapplers and fighters.
Also, Chadi probably covered it on his channel already but in case he hasn’t, during the 19th and 20th centuries, there was a rivalry between Catch Wrestling and Judo. There were many style vs style match ups between the two, but the catch wrestlers were victorious. In fact they were so victorious that many of the Kodokan Judoka that Kano himself sent to fight the Catch Wrestlers, ended up leaving Japan and traveling to western countries in order to learn Catch Wrestling in which they Judoka would eventually bring back to Japan.
Don’t even get me started on the leg grab ban in Judo, and even before that, many wrestlers who were competing in Judo were hitting so many blast doubles on Judoka by simply shooting in on them without tying up, that the IJF changed the rules to where you could only shoot from the tie up before banning leg grabs altogether. Need I also remind you that Jigoro Kano himself was a student of the game as well? Where do you think Kata Guruma came from? Even many top level Judoka today have incorporated wrestling turtle attacks and turnovers into their game in order to get pins.
@@stanclark3992 now you’re backpedaling. Both wrestling and Judo are both sports and martial arts. Every single country on this planet has a wrestling culture that goes back to ancient times and both wrestling and boxing are the oldest hand to hand martial arts in existence dating back to prehistoric times. If we are talking about self defense purposes, I’d give wrestling the SLIGHT edge over Judo for one reason and one reason only. Wrestling is easy to do but difficult to master. Judo on the other hand has a very high learning curve.
If you take two children, and put one of them in wrestling and the other in Judo, the child who is in wrestling will progress at his craft faster than the kid in Judo because wrestling techniques and concepts are easy to grasp and apply while it takes a long time if not years to get even remotely decent at Judo. Both are effective for self defense, but the kid who wrestled for six months will be able to take a kid down who has no grappling experience at all at will. The kid with only six months of Judo will have a tougher time but still may get the job done against another kid who has no grappling experience.
Also, I’m sorry but you’re full of shit. Judo is very much “reactive”. How often do you see a Judoka get an ippon on their first attack, at any skill level? That almost never happens. Even with proper kuzushi, as you said earlier (and now contradicted yourself) that many Judo concepts revolve around using ones momentum against them whether it be forwards, backwards, or side to side. You previously stated that you would use a wrestler’s momentum against them if you fought one, hence “reactive”. This is why most Judoka threaten foot sweeps and trips and use Osoto, Ouchi, Kosoto, Kouchi, etc to set up their bigger throws because in order to defend these attacks, you have to move your feet out of the way which often breaks your balance or exposes your weak plane, which allows the tori to hit a bigger throw (koshi waza, tachi waza, sutemi waza, etc) on the uke, thus Judo being as I said, “largely reactive”. Yes, you can initiate Judo on an untrained person and not have to worry about using sequences but initiating against another Judoka is most likely not going to work. You can easily force wrestling but you can’t “force” Judo, that’s the difference between the two. You can get away with having bad wrestling but you will pay for having bad Judo.
This is not my “bias”, this is purely fact. I understand when to wrestle, when to use Judo, and when to use Jiu Jitsu when I grapple. Having cross trained and been around many high level grapplers of different backgrounds, I have a much wider spectrum and grasp on grappling than you do from a technical and methodical standpoint since you literally advocate against cross training. Sounds like you have an ego that you haven’t left at the door yet, which is ironically, very “un-Judo-like” of you.
Judo has absolutely regressed, and while the current generation of judokas have not felt the effects of the leg grab ban as significantly, future generations will suffer greatly. The further we get from when these techniques are permitted in a tournament setting, the worse judokas will become as the skills involved in using and defending against these techniques won't be employed in training. Time is precious. To be successful, judokas need to be efficient in training. That means focusing on legitimate, legal techniques and tactics. The IJF has done the art a great disservice in pursuit of TV airplay and aesthetics.
I disagree. Just because you can’t grab legs anymore hasn’t differed the sport or takedown defence. We now use the same techniques like kata Garuma revised without legs
@@felixkernot7378 You are living in a dream world. With each new generation of judokas, the leg-related takedown defense will get worse and worse, unless the athlete deliberately competes in wrestling. How many judokas are competent enough in the Scissor takedown to use it in a competition? Virtually none. Why? Because it's been illegal for decades. The banning of leg grabs has opened a gaping hole in the art. Instructors may gloss over it for early belt tests, but competency will diminish over time.
@@alanrussette2819 leg takedowns aren’t the be all and end all. Especially in street fights. If you need to learn just learn haha doesn’t need to apart of the syllabus of every martial art
@@felixkernot7378 These throws are part of the Kodokan so yes, they need to be learned.
@@felixkernot7378 leg takedowns are at least a third of the offense a grappler has. They aren't everything, but they're a lot
Banning leg grabs will someday render judo obsolete.
Remove all the rules and 2 arts basically looks kinda the same. Kano took his time adding wrestling moves into old Jujutsu which created Judo and future generations removed them from competitions for silly reasons. He would be very dissapointed
I wouldn't say 100%, with the new rules judo is made more picturesque and more ippon judo
Wasn't Kano keen on having a more aesthetic Judo that doesn't look like wrestling?
@@jansettler4828 Grappling is grappling. Judo players back when legs attack is still around didn't stand so low like today's wrestler, you could tackle the legs without diving deep. Pure Judo is basically japanese Wrestling already, trying to make it looks different from western counterpart just for competition is dumb and ended up harming the martial art in the process
@@jaketheasianguy3307 Precisely
@@jaketheasianguy3307 exactly!
This video is an incredible coincidence. I literally just started judo classes about 4 or 5 weeks ago, however I wrestled for 12 years (5 years NCAA div II), and have been doing jiujitsu (gi and no gi) for almost two years. Today, after class, to my sensei, I expressed my puzzlement of the judo stance being upright (albeit noting that greco stances are upright as well). We had a decent discussion of it, and he was saying that its easier to throw a wrestler because they're off balanced because they're bent over and leaning into each other. However, in my experience its generally not a good idea to be either leaning into your opponent or to be bent over even in folkstyle/freestyle wrestling. Sure, the stance is lower, but you shouldn't be curling your back or have your weight forward; your back ought to be straight, your head up, and your weight behind you (its not so easy to down block your front leg if you have a lot of weight on it, which is why leaning is generally not good, additionally its hard to generate power for any kind of attack if your weight is forward). I don't think the key to a good wrestling stance is being bent over, rather its having your knees bent so that you're low to the ground. Bending your knees causes your butt to be behind you, so your head comes forward a bit to counter-balance your butt; however, I consider a wrestling stance quite balanced.
However, it kind of clicked for me when he said that wrestlers have a good base, but not good balance (I think I get what he's saying, but instead of balance I'd use the word position). A lot of the attacks in judo I've noticed have to do with pulling an arm of your opponent so that they step into you, in wrestling this generally isn't possible because there is no clothing to grip so that you can block an attack from your opponent (and therefore most throws are done chest to chest, or with a head and arm lock).
So while I think I have an idea at what he's getting at, I still feel like a low stance could be beneficial because it can be quite difficult to get your hips underneath your opponent with their knees bent (i.e. in greco you often do see competitors lower their stances, even if momentarily, to defend attacks like high dives/body locks and underhooks, and you see a similar reaction in mma especially against the cage). I'm eager to explore this topic more because I think it is quite profound. Especially since the lower you are the more difficult it is to throw someone (i.e. if I were to lay completely flat, it is way more difficult to pick me up and throw me; this is why I'm quite confused as to why a wrestling stance is considered "imbalanced"). I'm not saying that I aim to prove judo is wrong, but I think its very interesting to highlight the different circumstances where stances are good and bad. It seems that the less rules and restrictions there are in a competition, the harder it is to come up with general principles, but maybe that's obvious. This is the very reason why I wanted to learn judo in the first place and see the different perspectives of things.
Sorry for the dissertation. Grappling is the biggest interest in my life.
You are really deep in this topic bro :D but goof point of few
Hey, just wanted to say I find your "dissertation" fascinating and I'm eager for a follow-up if you have learned something about this in the year since you wrote this :)
You made a lot of great points, but I do want to assure you of something. I know it's been a whole year, and hopefully you've been able to stay with Judo.
You say that it becomes difficult to go from standing position to getting your hips lower than your opponent's, while this is true, most forward throws require that you get your hips lower, so that's something that is practiced very very often. Eventually you learn how to turn around and squat down low enough as a second nature.
It also helps that when you are worrying about getting your opponent off balance forwards, they ALSO tend to become "taller", essentially standing in their tippy toes, which makes getting lower than them easier.
I do Judo, BJJ and wrestling. I find the difference is the gi and gripping. In Judo, when I've done randori with wrestlers who take a low stance, I find it much easier to get an upper lapel and sleeve grip. Since the grips in Judo are essential for successful techniques, gaining the superior grip can negate a lot of the wrestlers leg shoot techniques. I'm a life long Judo player, but only started BJJ a few years ago. When I first started no gi BJJ, I was vulnerable to leg shoots (very frustrating); my posture changed some (lower), but mostly I learned to shut down most leg shoots with gripping (neck tie up-clinch). When I do no gi BJJ, my initial stance is lower to guard my legs, but once in the clinch, I'm more standing where I've had decent success with hip throws and foot sweeps.
You have a decent analysis of the differences, but I think the biggest thing you are missing is you are evaluating the stances on their defensiveness statically, but outside of uchi komi, that's not what you're going to experience. Of course, if someone is standing still in a wrestling crouch, it's going to be very awkward to get in and under their hips for a hip throw, but... that's when you just blast them with a sideways osoto or a tai otoshi or a sasae, because the wrestling crouch has their body braced against movement in one direction- making it much more exposed to being moved the other. Now, once you get someone moving, they will be more upright, or at least extended, at which point they are basically in the position that you would put someone in when demonstrating you kuzushi. That's why Uchi Mata is like... **the** wrestler killer.
Every time I start rolling in BJJ, I always do the upright position, pulled off a few sasae tsuri komi ashi's, man I miss being on the mats, glad you're back at it bro 😊.
Thank you, hope you come back soon
Great solution to deal with filthy guard pullers
There's nothing forcing you to get down on your hands and knees and roll bjj Style... I hover on my feet and use sakuraba style guard passes after they make an attempt at my legs. If you're concentrating on escaping the leg lock it's pretty easy to jump out
Shizen Tai is designed for real fight, Judo has a lot of strikes thats not convenient stay in Jigo Tai unless you are in very close contact. I think that’s why complete judokas have to think about this (for those who wants to learn the traditional way and not just competition)
I agree
I did some sparring/randori with wrestllers. They did not fight as Chael describes. They had two attacks: 1 : The double leg. 2.: Try to take the back and then suplex or arm drag. Both attacks were pretty easy to Stuff and I had one guy walk head first into hadaka jime from above. Judo isn't defenseless At All against the classic wrestler.
Agreed
I wanna say this is a no brainer...
Bc there is a brown belt ( actually just got his black belt) his first yr in wrestling he went all states which is a big deal. And he's not the only example.
So, by following that logic Judo obviously compliments wrestling very well. I think Judo is more well rounded, I think it's much more martial in its aggression and application.
Judo is a very well rounded form of grappling. And ppl can pick and choose in Judo. Some people focus and Newaza, most focus on the tachiwaza. And, some even out the 2 aspects of Judo. The more well rounded ur Judo the better overall grappler you will become.
Great point
Agreed💮
Judo needs muaythai in mma just to check everything off but the biggest one would be how they clinch (not ufc thai clinch, real thai clinch in muay thai). You develop neck strength which is the major disadvantage of judo because of the gi and the positioning when you don't have your dogi, plus unlike greco, you're allowed to sweep. Stance are almost the same, less adjustments needed. Muaythai clinch offers alot more than the 2 hands on the head, it's its own art and it perfectly compliments judo and vice versa
Muay thai would be a great addition
Karate with I believe a bit of MT were added to create Kudo.
I'm a praticioner of both
With the Jacket it is generally preferable to have an upright posture. Without the bent over posture is going to be a bit more advantageous. When you are talking about a fight with strikes, you need to be a bit more upright in order to punch and kick effectively but not as much as Judo or Greco
100%
Ultimately, Judo is Greco Roman wrestling in clothing with more devestating throws (because of said clothing), the ability to use your legs to get sweeps and throws, and a ground game that relies on dominating the transition between stand up and the ground, pinning, and submissions. Anyone who looks at that and says it's bad for self defence is either trolling for clicks (looking at you, chael) or just an idiot
When people shoot in for lazy singles and doubles I always sprawl heavy and slap on sankaku lol
That's what i did, i used the Bilodid entry
Its really a shame Judo doesn't use the front headlock because thats the typical countervailing force in Grappling
@@Howleebra I used it to sacrifice throw and pin a few times
@@sleepytwiggaming I had been doing old-school Judo since childhood and when I started wrestling I found several of the throws to be extremely effective...Daki wakare and Tawara gaeshi are extremely useful
@@Howleebra i also did Judo since childhood. i have never done wrestling tho
I think we also shouldn’t conflate mma with real world self defense. The judo throw that someone can shrug off in a match on a canvas fighting ring, will be devastating on a parking lot or concrete sidewalk where a lot of self defense scenarios take place.
Keep at it the ! videos are getting better and better
Thank you David
7:08 He might score a point that way, but he's put himself in a dangerous position where he's vulnerable to chokes and knee strikes.
Thank you for that video!
I saw the title and really appreciate that you answered my question from the last video.
I will send it to my judo friend.
🙇🏻♂️
Daniel Cormier was a feeestly wrestler that is probably the best fighter in mma history imo. He startrd his pro career in his 30s let that sink in....
I agree an upright stance is best to start for Self-Defence and MMA style fights. You can transition into bent stances as needed.
I still hope judo rules would be reversed to allow leg grabs again and to make sure that takedown/throws won’t yield points if the attacker ends up in disadvantageous position. Judo has such a great techniques, but from self-defense perspective it’s approach is often too short-term since a judoka assumes the referee will rescue him after 7 seconds. Bring back the real judo.
You are very right with this: "....make sure that takedown/throws won’t yield points if the attacker ends up in disadvantageous position"
Excellent done Chadi! Great link you did on shisei and self defense. Congratulations my friend!!!
Thank you my friend
if you have a good sprawl you can wrestle very effectively from a standing position, American folk style wrestling teaches a different wrestling posture than freestyle and specifically Muslim Russian freestyle has a different stance yet. freestyle Judo is genius cuz it forces you to Grapple from a standing position which is critical for your MMA crossover potential whereas the wrestling bent-over stances are suicide in MMA.
Muay Thai Judo and wrestling all combined equal MMA unless you have a good MMA gym... then you don't have to fool around with all that
Yeah
Does sumo stance also enters on the judo stance? Because sumo stance is a judo stance but more squatted down. I think sumo stance is best of both worlds, because in sumo they have something that is like strike, at least the most amount of strike that I have seen in any grappling fight, and they can't touch the ground. For self defense, I think is the best answer. Becauss if you can finish any fight without falling while throwing. You have time to engage with maybe another person or flee. If you fall together, there may be another person or you won't have time to disentangle and flee.
Also, talking about leg grab defense. A couple of years ago I was in a BJJ class as a judo black belt and the teacher wanted be to help a student on takedowns because he was practicing for competition. I was years without any leg grab training but knew that BJJ prefer to use leg grab to take it down. He tried twice to leg grab me and in reflex, both times I used tawara gaeshi as a defense, throwing him behind me and rolling. Ending up on top.
I know. I am the weird sumo guy. I plan on making a sumo focuses channel for my country.
Sumo stance does have its benefits, but I'd say it lacks in terms of movements and speed compared to judo.
Yeah. I practice both. But I just can put my finger on the difference. It looks like the sumo stance lack lateral movement but I don't know. While you don't need to be squatted all the way down, you can also use a judo stance in sumo. But it's useful as a defense
@@Chadi literally what i was going to say. depending on what sumo stance you are using, you might not be able slip punches, throw kicks, or move sideways with enough speed.
Wrestlers can chatter about bent stature until they get choked, such as hadakajime. And oddly enough, all those interstyles games, judo vs wrestling, never take into account the locks and choking, I wonder why:)
Chokes and locks are there, Don't forget them
I feel like this is a little unfair. While its definitely true that a wrestling stance is more susceptible to a guillotine choke its not like you just have to "let" someone reach over your head for the choke. Sure, you got to be very careful of chokes when you go for a double leg shot (and even a single leg can leave you vulnerable to collar chokes); however that's not really wrestling specific since double legs and single legs were in judo as well.
I'm more interested in the consequences of a low stance vs erect stance when it comes to defending a throw. After talking to my sensei about this, I feel that while a low wrestling stance is valid for defending a throw, it is much more susceptible to being imbalanced.
Or just soccer kicked in the face, it’s not a good stance that’s why wrestlers use kickboxing stances in mma. Judo stance is more similar to a Karate or kickboxing stance
I have to disagree on Chaels position of greco vs other wrestlers edge is based on posture. There are multiple reasons greco to mma vs free/folk to mma are more successful, but the main factors are a necessity for greco to have solid hand fighting in the clinch. In other types of wrestling there are more variables but that allows wrestlers to become good at a variety of skills, yet lack milage in serious handfighting.
This skill transfers better to mma and sd. In both mma and sd the hands are the primary threats to include extensions there of like weapons.
The sprawl is a critical grappling skill. Yet the first line of defense is footwork and range. The upright posture provides superior overall mobility. The second the upper limbs/hands to include grips and ties. The third would be the Sprawl.
For grappling defense the level change ties integrally in to the sprawl. For mma and sd to include wrestler vs judoka grappling only, an immediate level change is a very simple defense upon visual cue of potential wrestling leg shot.
On top of sprawl. Sumi. Tomoe. Sankaku. Uchimata. Kimura are great shot counters.
This is the first time I’ve seen someone analyzed takedown defense this well. Even as a former high school wrestler myself and a judo brown belt, I’ve never looked at takedown defense this way because I was always so focused on sprawling. Granted I only wrestled for one season so my knowledge of wrestling is limited.
As a police officer who trians primarily in forms of Judo. You cannot convince that Judo is not effective for self defense. :)
100%
It is, but it's not complete
If I did Police work, Judo would be my primary P.T. absolutely. You're smart to stay with it. Cheers.
Street fights generally the tunnel vision focus means they are looking head high judo man's feet are his second hands very dangerous opponent indeed..
True! i hope that they also teach newaza to you. Because i've seen many schools that doesn't do it.
Excellent as usual. OSS
🙇🏻♂️
the biggest problem with wrestling is turning 18 and not being allowed to wrestle anywhere anymore
If you wanna go for single or double you can't just shoot in like nothing. You need a set up. A set up can be everything, punches, kickes, grabbing the neck, grabbing the wrist, trying to snatch the other leg to get your targeted leg, if you shoot without a set up you'll get sprawled. Yes you can shoot in directly if the distance is really close but it won't happen without a set up if the distance is middle to long
Great point
Chadi... you said you don't know what context leg grab should be brought back. Next time you talk to Neal Adams propose this idea I have thought about since the rule changes. Leg grabs should be brought back in a couple scenarios either three times during a match or only three times during golden score. Clearly it can be done any number of times 1,2,or3. So for example, the third attempt if it doesn't succeed should lead to immediate loss. What do you think of these rule changes? In my view it does honor to both judo's present State as well as its past and strikes a fair balance and will make for an exciting match.
For anyone interested to see someone aplicate judo in folkstyle wrestling at high level check out jason morris he was judo olympic silver medalist who compete against D1 wrestlers in college his style is very unique .
I'll make a video on him
there is an old video out there of a judo kid that went all the way and won the championships in wrestling. all of the techniques are a no gi judo variation and his posture was upright.
While Judo excels in newaza, I'd say wrestling develops self-defense ability faster because it teaches you how to take people down, stat on top, and avoid being taken down. And unlike Judo, it doesn't rely on gi-grabbing to set up throws, which is more realistic for the street.
Not really, for everyone do Judo and try to wrestle will be adapt to no gi situations. If the person using a jackets it is a plus for Judoka.
It's the exact opposite
Do you think it would be possible if you could make a video on standing neck cranks?
I have to compile them
Also judo used to have a lot of HIKI KOMI GAESHI variations that totally twist a leg-shooting attacker into a knot. Alas, I believe it is now a forbidden technique because of several reasons. It's not particularly risky, but it CAN be painful if one wants it to be.
No gi ,wrestling stance has the edge, with the gi,i always go for a Georgian grip or sprawl. Usually the georgian grip connects really fast and you got a nice sumi gaeshi.
Good point
An important topic. Nicely covered
I argue for shizentai for a different reason- disengagement. Being able to reestablish correct distance is essential. Can’t do that bent over.
100%
Hi chadi hope you're well could you give us a bit information about Iranian werstling (free style or Roman) usually they first or second in world's championship. Thanks
Did Neil Adams say who got the other person down when he took off the gi and wrestle Did he take the wrestler down or did the wrestler take him down and win?
Thank you!
🙇🏻♂️
What is the difference between freestyle judo and kodokan judo? Or are they the same.
I got a question would strikes to the back of the head destroy the single and double leg takedown attempts
If the guy is strong yeah, hammer fists to the back of the neck can be serious
Clothed participants, in sport or self-defense, benefit the most from knowing Judo.
Judo vs wrestling try MMA fights: Sanchez vs Parisyan and Shields vs Akiyama.
Yes great suggestions
There are also vids on YT of judokas in wrestling competitions. Lots of judo throws in there.
It's all Ying and Yang. (I'm not a martial artist of any kind, but I do play ping-pong and tennis). High stance is good for mobility, low stance is good for stability. Good for one thing is bad for the other thing. That is the nature of fighting. It's all a rock-paper-scissors game.
Ronda's judo beat Misha Tate's wrestling (who beats Sara McMann), Holly Holm's kickboxing and judo defense beats Ronda, Misha Tate's wrestling beats Holly Holm.
The poker song is a good lesson for all things. "You've got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, and know when to run . . . "
I suppose that dojos that train using the kosen rule set might have a bit of an advantage. They should be able to adjust quicker than dojos that are heavily focused on IJF rules.
I think Freestyle Judo and Kosen Judo Rules are the way to go, unless you are an aspiring international or Olympic level Judo player. It provides a larger repertoire of technique options and allows the average person to train in the way they want to have fun, get in shape and defend themselves. Which frankly is why most people train anyway, very few of us have Olympic aspirations, so why train under a rules set that makes that assumption.
They should have classic and new style judo like freestyle vs Greco
Pray for me yall, I have no judo or wrestling training and I'm about go to an open judo mat night(?) I'm just watching every video I possibly can to see some techniques
Judo is still a very dangerous art don't let the news rules change fool you . The only time I miss leg grabs it is not even for throws like more gari, te guruma or kata guruma. I miss them for my combos .
Yeah even as a former high school wrestler myself, I used to be frustrated at the lack of leg grabs in judo when I first started but over time I’ve started to become more comfortable with seoi nage and ashi waza and nowadays I find that wrestling helps more with newaza than standup. I find that the gi just opens up a whole new subset of attacks while simultaneously restricting a subset of attacks as well. For me the gi opened seoi nage and tomoe nage but pretty much killed ura nage and I also find it extremely difficult to shoot for a single leg or double leg whenever me and the guys would screw around after practice to try to take shots on each other.
I going chime into this is it a technique in spirt of judo or strength based
Just choose whatever is available to you. In my case, my country has little to no wrestling at all, BUT judo is more widely available. Hence why I take judo, even though I do think I prefer wrestling a little bit more. BJJ is still the most popular one, though.
Olimpyc country fellow at 1:53 👍🥋
7:7 this is not a sprawl! He did defend with his hip, but that not all. You cannot just lay down on and call it sprawl. Its very important to stuff the head (control the head), and continue not just freeze there 😄
i hate when people say that judo stance leaves people open like sprawling is still easy
I feel like this is an extreme overstatement. Sprawling is really the last line of defense, and honestly many times I don't really even need to take a full penetration shot in the gi, because I can just lower my level and grab some fabric on the pants and step into a single leg. I really feel like one of the big differences between wrestling and judo/bjj is that there's a lot more shitty wrestling out there than shitty judo/bjj. You might find the following shocking, but when I was wrestling in high school there were some very small schools in the area that had wrestling coaches that had 0 wrestling experience. Try getting an IJF or IBJJF certified with zero experience, it just doesn't happen like it does in wrestling.
@@insidetrip101 makes sense, i just never really see the need to not sprawl, its still high risk high reward forsure, best case i get a guillotine,anaconda,darce etc, and finish, worst case i land in bottom side control, then theres the not as sever but still disadvantaged guard or halfguard, most people are content to do the greco/judo underhook overhook fight, like you said lazy shots are rampant in bjj schools and i def take advantage if someone does, wrestlers on avg have way more physicality
did they really remove leg takedowns from Judo? if so why?
th-cam.com/video/ClKdBIB_FM0/w-d-xo.html
they know this they know that...
but wasn t the motto you fight how you train...
I didn’t know you did BJJ. Or did you enter as a judo player?
I went in as a judoka, might go back to bjj this year for more time on the ground and experiment in gi leg locks
You sound pretty good for someone who's out of practice.
It took me a couple of sessions
Kudos straight up hands up legs apart bent is designed for full fight
I feel like that is a false dichotomy. Striking makes an upright position more viable than a freestyle position
The arguments are that for striking it's better to be upright to move faster and not put your head in danger, against drop attacks, the defense still exists
@@Chadi well yeah. I guess we share the same point. I would like to add that it is possible to be athletic and mobile in that bent over position. You can look at wrestlers like Jordan Burroughs and frank chimizo as examples. Either way, that position is not ideal in a full mma context.
@@MrTooEarnestOnline true
For the most part yes
I did not expect to see the Face of Uncle Chael to appeared in this vid
🤙🏻
Who is Uncle Chael please ?
@@QuantumMechanic_88 Chael Sonnen is a retired mma fighter, affectionately known as uncle chael by his fans, who become popular when he had his beef with Anderson Silva due to his charisma and trash talk. His fighting style is to wrestle with his opponent and ground and pound them.
@@gladiumcaeli Thanks very much .
Field hockey vs Ice hockey: are field hockey players too slow?
They are but they have better brakes than ice hockey players and I agree with you, it's an exercise in futility talking about two different sports. Soccer, Basketball or Handball who wins? Well the soccer guy wins at soccer and so on and so forth.
@@wgjung1 Kronum.
It doesn't matter you change from posture from posture all the time with the flow of the fight.
Practice everything
I think you're quite right. This might seem obvious, but I really don't think its so easy to see because usually when we compete we have these restrictive rule sets that end up "protecting" us from certain kinds of scenarios. This has the effect of us coming up with very good general principles that don't necessarily translate once we remove some of those restrictions. Its one of those things that sound obvious when it is said, but isn't so easy to see when we're looking at the myriad of details that exist in different grappling disciplines.
@@insidetrip101 the video talks about this under the selfdefense and MMA contexts not competition under an specific discipline, so there are not many rules holding you back.
@@AzureWiler That's true, but there are still rules in both self defense and MMA. Too often (just in my opinion) we think of self defense as a "no rules" fight, but unless you're living on a desert island absent any government what you do in defense is always going to be judged post hoc at the very least. But even if you're not considering the laws governing self defense, there are many self defense situations where you might not want to kill or maim your aggressor. Imagine that you're being attacked by your uncle that just had too much to drink on Christmas, you might not want to heel hook the guy and bust up his knee. You still want to keep him from hurting anyone, but you probably still care for the guy. In MMA, there are obvious rules as well, admittedly less rules, but there are still rules, and I think its important to keep that in mind at all times.
@@insidetrip101 bro we are just talking about your posture and fighting stance, not how you decide to hurt your aggresor.
The law doesn't care about your stace but it does about how bad you hurt your aggresor and some times it sucks, example you can be a bouncer and if the idiot is so drunk he trips on his own feet and breaks his head, you better have security cameras because you are going to get in trouble anyways even if all you did was putting your hands between you and the other guy blows to not get hurt (this actually happened in my place)
@@AzureWiler I'm sorry. I didn't mean to induce any hostilities. However, I do see your stance as distinctly related to your goal, which is why I find it an interesting concept and think the parameters surrounding the encounter are important relative to your stance.
I'm sorry, I didn't intend on frustrating you.
Yesss!
🙇🏻♂️
@@Chadi Every serious student of grappling should put in some time cross training in wrestling. Greco handwork has allowed me to do well in a clinch and beat out a lot of other grapplers in handfighting. Judoka would benefit for positional reasons and handfighting on the top end.
@@Soaring_Hawk I agree a judoka would benefit greatly from greco
Judo and Wrestling compliment each other. But......wrestlers always get choked and arm barred. Wrestlers pinning concerns a flat press (touch fall) whereas in Judo it's just a timed control (osaekomi). In my experience, Wrestlers were always better conditioned. Then they go up against a boxer or kickboxer. Boxers are best conditioned and they punch you in the nose.
Boxers are not better conditioned than wrestlers... Sorry.
Neil Addams said in the video that when he took the jacket off he got mauled by the wrestler. Doesn't this show that wrestlers have the advantage without no gi?
He proceeded to say that he adapted later on
@@Chadi I do both judo and wrestling. In my opinion when doing no gi you need to do some wrestling to get the setups and control ties in order to execute the judo throws. setups like elbow pass, arm drag ,snap down, headlock,two on one and etc...
Just doing gi the setup and control tie is completely different..I wish we in judo also did atlesst one training session a week without gi to practise this. What is your opinion Chadi?
@@Alexsnakedoc agreed, adding wrestling entries and gripping will enhance your stand up
Judo is the way.... will can hang or defeat any grapaling style say all u want but it will and it does
Come on. From. Defenseless to leg grabs? Even if we take the (many) cool stuff from BJJ/wrestling....defenseless is harsh. Or maybe I'm getting old.
Judoka Karo Parisyan was defenceless against GSP leg shots.
Judo has submissions...
You lost me when you said for the 10th time: doubles and singles.
What is a double and a single?
Double/single leg takedowns
@@Chadi Perhaps you should call it like that, as not everyone watching your movies knows the "cliche names".
@@Jiyukan These are very common names in wrestling.
@@alanrussette2819 I'm pretty sure - like in any other martial arts - those techniques have "real names". Which you e.g. could google. And: I'm not a wrestler.
@@Jiyukan And in wrestling, they're called double and single leg takedowns. In judo, morote gari is the double leg takedown.
But jujitsu guys do better than judo guys and their stance is similar to freestyle wrestling…
Collar grips make it easy to stop single legs lmao keep it a bean sumi geshi shuts down wrestling......its not that judo regressed the moves are there we arnt using dem what incentive do they have to make outsiders better my humble opinion😔💯🙏🏽
Daniel Cormier
DC is a master of the eye poke!
Senegalese wrestling vs khusti
pas comprendre
Pourquoi ???
@@Chadi T'as pas bien expliqué et t'as pas donné de comparaison visuelles au debut entre les deux. Si on n'a pas d'image on ne comprend pas.
@@pahtashow j'ai montré que le sprawl est toujours vivant dans le judo, si un lutteur essaye un double les judokas ont le réflexe, et dans la rue tu reste droit.
🤔💯👌🤔👊👍😎🙏
Hey I know let's do a away with suicide as well throws cause we don't want risk giving our backs now people, just thanks IJF. not the judo I learnt, my Ne-waza is pretty good thanks. they are killing judo with this stuff, In an Era where MMA is the dominant force and judo is respected as a practice in MMA. talk about suicidal, this could actually kill the art off all together.
Shut up chael sunon he dose judo moves and had bin thrown with judo multiple time
For the most part yes