I took my 19 awd off road thru a tall grass/ muddy area after the big round of storms in Feb (san diego) in mud sand mode. It went thru no prob and all tires were spinning all over the place. I got worried for a second because it was alot muddier than i expected.
I appreciate that you're actually explaining how the different AWD systems work and doing tests. This type of video is much better than the average car video dealing with AWD, which is usually without meaningful testing or pushing past the marketing fluff to see what's actually going on. My only critique is that more info would be good (exactly how much torque can transfer and how quickly, do incline/temperature sensors play a role, is ABS beefed up to handle constant brake-actuated torque shifting (master cylinder, pads, calipers), what type of clutch packs are used in torque vectoring (hydraulic, electric, wet/dry, etc. - are they likely to overheat or wear out with constant use?), is software upgradable, etc.). Looking at articulation and clearance would also, of course, be relevant, as would the transmission (some AWD systems seem limited by a CVT not being able to handle the load of moving more torque).
Toyota’s new AWD is basically still fwd but waits for the fronts to slip before sending any power to the back. It’s all still mpg based; don’t use the rears unless you absolutely have to.
it kind of makes this system very reliable because it will be used so little, so you never have to worry if its fucked if you are buying a used car, on the other hand in the inclement weather it will do absolutely nothing, judging from this video, it will only matter when you are in a real pickle like deep snow or sand, or rocks, and out of these 3 its mainly only the deep snow, but with the climate becoming warmer and last winter we didn't even have any snow at all, this system will just add a bit of value to the car, just not practicality. AWD systems have always been designed first for safety, when you are hydroplaning or when you are cornering at high speed or taking off, and out of all the systems he showed Toyota's one is just plain useless when it comes to safety factor of the system. Maybe somebody smart can hack it and make it more useful, or maybe its a viscous coupling differential with the fluid thats not very viscous, thats why it engages so sluggishly.
Cody Slab AWD won’t help you with hydroplaning. If you’re hydroplaning, you’re usually going too fast, so adding power to all 4 wheels won’t help get traction. It’s mainly been useful for in rainy weather for accelerating hard into traffic, and climbing hills in heavy snow and ice for me. Most of the AWD systems aren’t torque vectoring so they don’t help with high speed turning.
That is one reason I wouldn't necessarily want to get stuff like a RAV4 over a Subaru of some sort considering the AWD is primarily front and sometimes rear when needed unlike Subaru where it is a 50/50 split always.
The more I watch of this channel the more I appreciate it. Substantial, well informed reviewing and REALISTIC real world testing, no comical "outrageously pumped-up Jeep vs Soccer mom crossover on summer tires in Hell's Revenge tub: Only one makes it out" clickbate content... Keep it up!
Very well done and explained. This is the best video on the AWD systems I have watched, and yes the Toyota guy is just that, trying to sell his cars and systems. The smirk is obnoxious. BUT YOU are right on the money, and that is sincerely appreciated. IF I really wanted full time AWD I'd buy a Subaru.
The 3rd system seems simple enough to implement on basically any FWD vehicle and would add low speed AWD grip along with higher fuel efficiency to basically any commuter vehicle. A lot of "hot hatch" enthusiasts would LOVE this tech found in some entry level commuter cars with deep enthusiast communities. For Toyota, it'd be an awesome addition to a Yaris or Corolla. No? It'd be such a good combination of practicality with a touch of fun/performance!
What a great video and explanation of all the different systems! Best video I've watched in a long time breaking something down that only people who care will investigate! Bravo!
I still far prefer the always-on AWD of Subaru's. I would prefer to have a slight penalty to my MPG for the piece of mind of knowing that AWD system is working for me 100% of the time.
"...70 percent of new Subaru vehicles are now the object of recalls or service campaigns within two years of being purchased, noting that the “permissible limit” should be around 10 percent." www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2019/06/report-outlines-how-subaru-is-coping-with-quality-control-issues/
@@timlor1789 if you want proper offroading then sure but for me personally it just about that extra piece of mind always on 4wd gives me when I am in the car with the kids and it is bucketing down outside.
I'm not convinced with the launch tests or low traction tests. It looked as if the AWD system were behaving correctly. Sending too much power to the rear at launch under slippery conditions can cause an over-steer situation and subsequent loss of control if the driver is inexperienced or too slow to react. The way I see it, these AWD systems by Toyota were designed to be as safe as possible, not fun as possible. The AWD system is there to assist the front wheels and its main objective is to maintain control of the vehicle, not create an engaging driving experience. Because these AWD systems are reactive, and not proactive, rear wheel slip may simply not be on the agenda.
I think you just helped Subaru sell a bunch of new Foresters to people who want their AWD system to do something at launch. Sure makes me appreciate the system in my WRX. I'm willing to pay the small fuel economy penalty for traction.
Love the research on this! Personally don't care too much what Toyota officially says. They're just using your platform to market themselves. I'm more focused on what your thoughts are, how you feel driving the car and your perspective.
solid questioning. And great pointing out that the RAV4's rear wheels don't engage as well as other vehicles. Excellent parallel construction. I don't see many others asking the hard questions and pressing past the auto industry's marketing departments. Intellectually rigorous show.
As always one of the best reviews. I wish you had RAV4 Hybrid to test the start and cornering, RAV4 motor on the rear axle is stronger than Prius. I realy wanna see if there is an improvement from the previous model.
I recently drove a 21 Hybrid RAV4 in snow and had to frequently use the "trail" mode that acts as a locker with the brakes as it was very FWD biased even when it said it was sending power to the rear. it was either too much, especially in a turn where it would spin the vehicle out or not enough
His tests show the fault of the Toyota systems. With their limited rear power on launch it is very limited until the rear wheels do anything to help move forward. The Subaru system has shown shows it works much better in slick conditions because it truly provides power to all four wheels. Still, the Toyota system is good enough to climb our 600 foot mountain to get home (15 percent climb). It just does not work as well as Subaru and other AWD systems that are true AWD. This demo is much appreciated.
Yeah, looks like the rear wheels are not engaging... buuut, you should test it on rollers to see if it can move with traction for 1-2-3 wheels. That's how other channels test AWD... the fact that the rear wheels do not leave a mark on gravel does not necessarily mean that they don't get power, just that they don't break contact. Do it the right way, please
Yeah, I agree that doesn't mean there was no power sent to the rear wheels. It might have thrown 30% of the power to the rear wheels and started the vehicle moving without slip in the rear.
I disagree. He clearly provided a visual comparison with a Santa Fe, Subaru, and Mercedes to show how their awd systems responded. Testing the awd system in a manner different from other channels is not a demerit, its actually a plus.
@@captainjack6890 yeah, right. They should test on asphalt... if the wheels don't slip, no power is going there. You need something with little to no friction at all, like ice or rollers. Dirt is not it...
@@ibiza1982 You clearly didnt watch the video. He tested it on snow, dirt and asphalt. The latter two had loose surfaces, hence poor traction conditions. I am not knocking channels who use rollers an inclines in a parking garage to SIMULATE offroad conditions. I am saying kudos to him for not doing what everybody else is doing but actually taking the vehicle to places similar to where we the consumers will actually be driving it. Have you ever driven on a roller on your way to camping? But I am pretty sure you must have driven in loose dirt or probably snow.
@@captainjack6890 you clearly don't understand my point: if you want to test and compare awd, you need identical situations with near zero friction on 1, 2 and 3 wheels to really see where the torque is going. Testing on gravel and snow is nearly useless and almost waste of time, first because there still is some friction and is the engine is not too powerful it will not spin the wheels and second because conditions can vary a lot from day to day and in different places (you know soft vs hard snow, etc.).
Great video! Thank you guys! I agree with some of the below commenters, I wish you’d do a 2019 rav4 hybrid video on the trail to test out the “TRAIL” mode.
I have an old Highlander hybrid and the system always kicks in the rear electric motors when flooring it from a stop for max traction and acceleration. I much prefer it to the standard AWD system.
no, there's an electric motor in the front too. my older highlander hybrid can't drive on full electric but the newer ones the front electric motor would be doing most of the work
all i no is i tested a new rav limited in deep ass snow ans ice roads and it was awesome. engine louder than I like but it handled perfectly and was awesome in snow
Very interesting. I have a 21 Rav4 XLE and just got my first taste of its performance in snow conditions. I found it to work very well and it did actually seem to power the rears from a hard launch. Since I was inside the car and had no one to observe from outside though I can't say for certain. I am also convinced that the snow mode does not "shut off" at higher speeds as Toyota seems to claim since cycling this mode on and off at highway speeds clearly cause a change in the sound of the drive train. With these systems evolving so quickly I suspect it's quite hard to remain current year to year on exactly how they work. Thanks for a very informative video.
It’s had to of had an upgrade in software since this, I had a 21 XLE AWD and it passed diagonal test with 2 tires in the air. It definitely relies on brakes for traction but when you stay on throttle, it’ll get you the traction you need for the most part. It was pretty good
Subaru definitely has the car and CUV systems figured out. Toyota AWD aka full time 4WD systems that really shine are the torsen center diffs on the land cruiser, 4Runner Limited, Lexus GX460 and LX570. All those vehicles have hi and lo 4wd, torsen center diffs, automatic gear boxes, etc.
Toyota has significantly dropped the ball for years now with cheaper parts and bs marketing all while raising the prices on their cars. People only continue to buy Toyota’s simply because of the name and I know because I used to work for them. It won’t be long before automakers like Kia/Hyundai take over when it comes to quality and durability. They’re already winning when it comes to value. Anyway great video. Love you’re reviews and breakdowns. Keep it up.
@davidrx795 true, I heavily dislike jeep, for many reasons (fiat, reliability, ect) but if that's the only way I can get a true offroader it will have to do. I'm really praying that the next gen 4runner is just as good as the 5th
Looking forward for more serious tests with the new hybrid RAV4 and see how it compares to a Forester. Is there a limitation of speed like on the Prius AWD?
I love taking my 2020 RAV4 on the NC beaches & AZ rocky hils. It has had no prolem of doing a great job. It just works. When I am in sand on the beach all 4 wheels spin from the start. So they must have fixed that problem. @11:00 Yes and I have. That is what a RAV4 is made for off-road. Anyone that says no is not a true RAV4 driver or owner.
Great video. Kudos to Toyota on their new RAV4: its come a long way from its tall-Tercel roots. I worry that Toyota is chasing down too many paths instead of making one great AWD.
In a 2019 Rav-4 hybrid, does the electronic-only "intelligent" linkage between front and rear axles mean if you have a flat on e.g. left rear tire, you only need to replace both rear tires for adequate match, or do you still have to replace all four tires (as in conventional awd) to avoid excessively stressing the transmission?
Excellent analysis of the all wheel drive systems available on RAV 4 and Prius. These systems are part time AWD less sophisticated than what Toyota provides on its Land Cruiser series with central (Torsen) mechanical differential and locking capabilities of the rear differential. The video is very interesting with excellent explanations. Many thanks.
Thanks for the vid. Basically, Toyota doesn't make a real AWD system. Toyota makes a 4WD system, but markets it as an AWD system in that it is a part-time AWD system. It's not like Toyota to try and pull some trickery to get buyers, until recently. Except that in the Toyota 4WD, the ECU is doing the switching, unless it's a 4runner, etc. I've seen test after test relating to this issue, and Toyota personnel always have a BS reason. The reason I have an '03 Rav4 is because my wife bought it, it keeps running despite me flooring it everyday, is cheap and easy to fix: Simply, reliable.
I recently took the new Adventure off road. The new system its an improve, but still is a FWD feeling as shown in this video. And the engine is too noise when you accelerate hard, doesn't feel much powerful than new Forester, and departing angles and approach, are I think worst than previous gen. I would go for the Forester in this segment for better off road and comfort use.
Aril 25/19. The Rav4 Adventure or Trail in Canada has a engineering defect, it does not have a soundproofing pad under the hood, Toyota is floating a solution: $485.00- plus tax (Canadian) for the snap-in pad. A ton of complaints.
Why would the back wheels need power if the front wheels are moving the car forward? In this video the front wheels are only barley slipping. This is clear because the car is moving forward! The car knows the fronts are slipping a bit but it also knows the car is moving forward, therefore the driver is not stuck. No need to send power to the rear. This is not a GX460 with a center differential. The awd system meant to get you moving or unstuck which is EXACTLY what the RAV4 is doing here...
Great review, I'm sure glad I switched away from the RAV4 and went with an AWD Honda Passport. The Honda AWD works awesome and sends up to 70% of the power to the rear wheels!
The GM Twin Clutch found on most FWD based GM SUVs offer similar torque vectoring AWD that can 100% to a single wheel while the other three slip. But the Honda version doesn't allow disengagement so the fuel economy suffers.
What u really need is a LC150/200/300 torsen style 4x4 with lower gearing. Most important thing is that they dont say "too hot" after a mile offroading...
As I commented below, the 2019 Rav4 Trail (in Canada) has a cheap out defect: there is no soundproofing pad under the hood resulting in a noisy interior cab, Toyota is aware of the complaints. They recently floated a solution for the 2019 owners: $485.00 plus tax (Canadian) for the pad. Instulation extra? April 25/19
First channel that is honest! I always thought the brake attenuating systems that toyota puts out are horrible. My Tundra would always get hot on brakes and give me all kinds of messages.
Do you have an update video for the new models Rav4 prime, trd off-road, xse models ? Crazy your test were in pnw I live in Seattle all my life and want to get an suv Rav4
@@normt5463 yeah, me and wife looking at the add the other day and we were wondering why the 2017 Forrester was only 16k and she wanted to buy it. Then i looked up the car history and it has transmission problems. I changed her mind real quick and save me from getting more headaches😢
Excellent Vehicle review, I like the technical aspect of the review that’s a big bonus when it comes to buying a vehicle and I really appreciate the interesting content as well as different terrain. Good job guys
What it looked like to me, when you said there was no torque to the rear wheels, is that the rear wheels actually got the car moving without wheelspin while the front wheels were still spinning. Anybody else see that?
@@AlexandarHullRichter if on a loose surface material like gravel it would display how the torwue.is proportioned in this test. You are correct that the best tire grip is right at the limits of adhesion or threshold of grip. The vehicle may just not have enough torque to create rear wheel slippage.
Erick Estrada oh ok cool. no issues so far ? It is a quiet ride ? No road or wind noises? I’ve never own Hyundai brand and I might consider to get a Santa Fe 2021 with 2.4 engine 4 cylinder. I heard that you get lots of value / features for the price .
@@carlauditts8514 No issues since I bought it. Never thought to myself that it was loud while driving. I recommend to make sure the one you get has android auto and apple carplay, very convenient for driving.
Erick Estrada thank you so much for sharing . I love Subaru Forester and I’m thinking to get one in 2021 but I’m considering hybrid Highlander ( I dislike a bunch of stuff of the Highlander). I’ll check out the Santa Fe 2021 before I made a decision.
I got the 2022 Rav4 Prime. If i turn off ASC and all the other joy killers, I can get into a 4 wheel slide while turning and applying throttle on a super icy road. The rear motor (electric) is only rated at 53hp and there is simply not enough juice to put it into a slide if the grip is "too good" for the back tires. Sofar based on my own experience, it is a good enough AWD system for urban people, launching from traffic lights during winter time is no issue what so ever. Going through deep snow (for a city) is also no issue (if you have proper tires) even though you're "plowing" through the snow. Is it as fun as an Audi UR Quattro..? Hell no - but it gets the job done.
I like the AWD system in my 2011 highlander Limited. I have never experienced a lack of traction when taking off from a stop. Even on snow covered, rainy, or gravel roads. Can you tell me how this new system stack up against an older system like the one I have?
Well I’m more confused then ever on which vehicle I should buy. Both Subaru and Toyota make great long lasting vehicles. I think where the Rav4 lags in AWD it makes up for in it’s transmission with it’s 8speed automatic non CVT. I want a vehicle that’s super comfortable for long drives and every day trips with excellent gas milage but also want reliability on occasional light off road and driving in the snow. The cost on maintenance is something to consider also. Help!!
The Outback is more comfortable on long trips. I found the standard RAV4 engine to be too buzzy. The hybrid is a different animal and is great for longer trips, even though it’s less effective off-road.
I've had my XSE for a few weeks now and even with only the 4 cylinder engine (plus the 2 electric motors), the vehicle has all the horse power it needs while still getting over 40 mpg.
To take an rav4 more to the extreme you should lift up the ground clearance from 8.6 to 8.9 inches of ground clearance to the adventure trim and get the bfgoodrich ko2 off road tires so It can keep up with the 4Runner Tacoma and tundra on unforgiving rough trails
2021 HH Platinum awd doing well in Upper Midwest snow/ice/slush. I drove one month on the OEM Bridgestone Alenza Sport and they did surprisingly well thanks in part to the AWD-I. Trail mode is great when you want more traction. Our previous 2013 HH Limited awd-I was not a great winter driver until I got pure snow tires on it. I put 150k miles on that 2013 and it was so reliable and I still got $11,000 on the trade in. I wanted a far superior winter handling and still use as a summer tire so I went with an all-weather tire: Nokian WRG4 SUVs on the 2021. These Highlanders are built safe(got T-boned by silverado and hit deer), reliable, efficient, and hold their resale value well.
@@drivingsports It will be really interesting to see the awd hybrid version with the same type of test that you have done. Very good video, the best I have found on the awd systems of the new rav4 ! Thanks !
@Driving Sports TV It will be really interesting to see the awd hybrid version with the same type of test that you have done. Very good video, the best I have found on the awd systems of the new rav4 ! Thanks !
@@drivingsports yes, that would be great. I am looking for a hybrid AWD vehicle: RAV4, CR-V and Outlander PHEV are my options. Forester has a chain CVT in its hybrid so is out of the race ;) The SUV will be used in Japanese mountains - no off road but definitely one wheel will loose 100% of its traction every now and again. I would love to see CR-V AWD system on your channel - I do understand it will not be hybrid.
Very informative, I'm not so sure those systems are that great. Snow is the biggest concern in my area and I've got hills. These systems seem inadequate for heavy snow where rear torque is a must have feature.
The Toyota AWD systems are inactive below 25 mph and only kick on power differential to the rear wheels below 25 mph when the computers are sensing that they need power or traction. It's essentially nonreliable. I don't want to say useless, but pretty much, having been in one where it failed to activate the AWD around 5 mph, and caused a crash.
The thing that keeps me way from all wheel drive is that, from what I'm told, is you have to replace all your tires if one of them blows out or if the tread is different on any tire.
I service our cars and we tend to keep them for over a decade so I'd prefer FWD over AWD. You save when buying and get better fuel economy with less weight and less wear parts.
I got the real answers, thanx for the video. Today i was looking couple Toyota Highlander and noticed all engine hanging on left side so that means transmission or drive shafts has direct connection to the front wheel, that means its All time front wheel drive with occasionally getting torque to rear axle. If car is front wheel drive why it needs crazy big 3.5L engine?🤔 direct drive shaft connection allows the even smaller engine to rotate the wheels and move the car, isn’t it? So its very complicated, cause i want car that can go off-road wheen needed and I don’t want to stock somewhere in the snow where has no phone signal. Now I need to think about what car I want yo buy again.
@drivingsports, I am late to the discussion but was wondering if you could make a comparison (in terms of off-road capability) between the Toyota hybrid AWD and i) the recently-introduced Nissan e-power eforce, ii) the Honda e-HEV AWD. Many thanks!
Thank you for the great video! It’s the best explanation of the AWD for Toyota that I’ve come across so far. I was hoping someone can pitch in and help me answer something. I’m on the fence about purchasing an XLE Premium package (standard AWD) or a Limited trim (Dynamic Torque Vectoring AWD) RAV4. I live in Canada and we get quite a bit of snow. This AWD is my primary deciding factor between the two trims, and the difference in price between the two trims is roughly $4000. If the Dynamic Torque Vectoring AWD on the Limited trim is worth it and will make that much of a noticeable difference in the snow I’m willing to shell out the money for it, but if the difference is negligible I’d rather go with the XLE Premium package and save some money. Thank you in advance for any help!
I would say the difference between the two is minor in practice. The "next step up" from the standard RAV4 system in Toyota's lineup is to go with a truck-based auto-4WD setup like in the 4Runner Limited or Land Cruiser.
@@drivingsports thank you so much for the reply, I really appreciate it! This absolutely helps in my decision making process. Please keep up with the great videos!
Just because the rear wheels are not slipping does not mean they are not receiving torque. The car may only be sending the amount of torque the rear wheels can transfer to the ground. The car was successfully moving forward.
So the new AWD system is still good, and technically better than the previous version, but not by much. Like the difference between an iPhone X and Xs. The Xs would technically be better, but it's essentially the same thing as before
![ละลาย (LALALYE) - DAOU PITTAYA ต้าห์อู๋ พิทยา [OFFICIAL MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/wo6r9TgausI/mqdefault.jpg)
Where would you go to give these systems a work-out?
Driving Sports TV no where! Because I’d get stuck ASAP!
During those launch tests, what does that torque distribution display show versus rear wheel spin (or lack of)?
I took my 19 awd off road thru a tall grass/ muddy area after the big round of storms in Feb (san diego) in mud sand mode. It went thru no prob and all tires were spinning all over the place. I got worried for a second because it was alot muddier than i expected.
Your selections were great!
Transfer cases are failing everywhere. Investigate.
I appreciate that you're actually explaining how the different AWD systems work and doing tests. This type of video is much better than the average car video dealing with AWD, which is usually without meaningful testing or pushing past the marketing fluff to see what's actually going on. My only critique is that more info would be good (exactly how much torque can transfer and how quickly, do incline/temperature sensors play a role, is ABS beefed up to handle constant brake-actuated torque shifting (master cylinder, pads, calipers), what type of clutch packs are used in torque vectoring (hydraulic, electric, wet/dry, etc. - are they likely to overheat or wear out with constant use?), is software upgradable, etc.). Looking at articulation and clearance would also, of course, be relevant, as would the transmission (some AWD systems seem limited by a CVT not being able to handle the load of moving more torque).
How you guys only have 68k subscribers is beyond me. You guys make better reviews than channels that have 500k subscribers. Keep it up
I just subscribe
I've just subscribed too.
I supposed a lot of subscribers are looking for 'entertainment', not so much 'actual value'. Sad, I know...
This is due to the decade plus of experience making excellent, and informative automotive videos/reviews.
Dish out crap you will have a dozen followers. Speak sense then its a different story.
Toyota’s new AWD is basically still fwd but waits for the fronts to slip before sending any power to the back. It’s all still mpg based; don’t use the rears unless you absolutely have to.
I would actually prefer this mpg bias, I would just want to be able to turn it off.
2019 rears are almost always engaged. Just look at the display plus I never get stuck, at least not yet.
it kind of makes this system very reliable because it will be used so little, so you never have to worry if its fucked if you are buying a used car, on the other hand in the inclement weather it will do absolutely nothing, judging from this video, it will only matter when you are in a real pickle like deep snow or sand, or rocks, and out of these 3 its mainly only the deep snow, but with the climate becoming warmer and last winter we didn't even have any snow at all, this system will just add a bit of value to the car, just not practicality.
AWD systems have always been designed first for safety, when you are hydroplaning or when you are cornering at high speed or taking off, and out of all the systems he showed Toyota's one is just plain useless when it comes to safety factor of the system.
Maybe somebody smart can hack it and make it more useful, or maybe its a viscous coupling differential with the fluid thats not very viscous, thats why it engages so sluggishly.
Cody Slab AWD won’t help you with hydroplaning. If you’re hydroplaning, you’re usually going too fast, so adding power to all 4 wheels won’t help get traction. It’s mainly been useful for in rainy weather for accelerating hard into traffic, and climbing hills in heavy snow and ice for me.
Most of the AWD systems aren’t torque vectoring so they don’t help with high speed turning.
That is one reason I wouldn't necessarily want to get stuff like a RAV4 over a Subaru of some sort considering the AWD is primarily front and sometimes rear when needed unlike Subaru where it is a 50/50 split always.
The more I watch of this channel the more I appreciate it. Substantial, well informed reviewing and REALISTIC real world testing, no comical "outrageously pumped-up Jeep vs Soccer mom crossover on summer tires in Hell's Revenge tub: Only one makes it out" clickbate content... Keep it up!
Very well done and explained. This is the best video on the AWD systems I have watched, and yes the Toyota guy is just that, trying to sell his cars and systems. The smirk is obnoxious. BUT YOU are right on the money, and that is sincerely appreciated. IF I really wanted full time AWD I'd buy a Subaru.
The 3rd system seems simple enough to implement on basically any FWD vehicle and would add low speed AWD grip along with higher fuel efficiency to basically any commuter vehicle.
A lot of "hot hatch" enthusiasts would LOVE this tech found in some entry level commuter cars with deep enthusiast communities. For Toyota, it'd be an awesome addition to a Yaris or Corolla. No? It'd be such a good combination of practicality with a touch of fun/performance!
What a great video and explanation of all the different systems! Best video I've watched in a long time breaking something down that only people who care will investigate! Bravo!
I still far prefer the always-on AWD of Subaru's. I would prefer to have a slight penalty to my MPG for the piece of mind of knowing that AWD system is working for me 100% of the time.
"...70 percent of new Subaru vehicles are now the object of recalls or service campaigns within two years of being purchased, noting that the “permissible limit” should be around 10 percent."
www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2019/06/report-outlines-how-subaru-is-coping-with-quality-control-issues/
Agree. I want an AWD system that works without having to adjust a knob. Subaru still has the best AWD.
Norm T we have 2 cars in 4 years from Subaru, no mayor recalls. Same bs as other brands.
If your gonna trade gas for awd performance you minus well just get a 4runner. At least that's real and has a low range.
@@timlor1789 if you want proper offroading then sure but for me personally it just about that extra piece of mind always on 4wd gives me when I am in the car with the kids and it is bucketing down outside.
I’m new to the off-road and AWD world. And I’m learning so much about it from channel.
This is the reason why I bought Subaru Outback. Thanks for this video.
Didn't your subaru come with a cvt
I actually was looking at subaru but transmission killed the deal
I'm not convinced with the launch tests or low traction tests. It looked as if the AWD system were behaving correctly. Sending too much power to the rear at launch under slippery conditions can cause an over-steer situation and subsequent loss of control if the driver is inexperienced or too slow to react. The way I see it, these AWD systems by Toyota were designed to be as safe as possible, not fun as possible. The AWD system is there to assist the front wheels and its main objective is to maintain control of the vehicle, not create an engaging driving experience. Because these AWD systems are reactive, and not proactive, rear wheel slip may simply not be on the agenda.
One thing a RAV4 will never do is torque steer from a stop. Just doesn’t have enough power for that to be a concern. 😂
Driving Sports TV let me introduce you to the Rav4 Prime 😂
This makes me feel good about my Subaru.
I think you just helped Subaru sell a bunch of new Foresters to people who want their AWD system to do something at launch. Sure makes me appreciate the system in my WRX. I'm willing to pay the small fuel economy penalty for traction.
Love the research on this! Personally don't care too much what Toyota officially says. They're just using your platform to market themselves. I'm more focused on what your thoughts are, how you feel driving the car and your perspective.
I'm so happy this video explained how the AWD in the Hybrid works.
Toyota guy slinging crap in his description of the awd.
Scot Caraway yes ,, he basically saying it sucks and didnt respong as advertised
Scot Caraway he basically told us it didnt perform the way it should've lol
His answers were not very satisfying, that's for sure.
solid questioning. And great pointing out that the RAV4's rear wheels don't engage as well as other vehicles. Excellent parallel construction. I don't see many others asking the hard questions and pressing past the auto industry's marketing departments. Intellectually rigorous show.
I have the 2019 rav4 hybrid, and I think it's definitely the most advanced awd, it is about 85% as good as the 4x4 on my f150 so not bad
Y'all should test the AWD-I in the 2019 Rav4 hybrid offroad to see how it compares.
This
Shane T ^this please! I want to buy one if it’s not a total flop
Their electric/hybrid AWD’s aren’t the best but that’s just my personal opinion
He did just od that.
probably be WORST
As always one of the best reviews. I wish you had RAV4 Hybrid to test the start and cornering, RAV4 motor on the rear axle is stronger than Prius. I realy wanna see if there is an improvement from the previous model.
Yes!!
th-cam.com/video/Vdjb8CrAA6w/w-d-xo.html
I recently drove a 21 Hybrid RAV4 in snow and had to frequently use the "trail" mode that acts as a locker with the brakes as it was very FWD biased even when it said it was sending power to the rear. it was either too much, especially in a turn where it would spin the vehicle out or not enough
@@zero2sixty244 Thsnks for the info. Sounds like the idea is there, but there is still work to be done.
His tests show the fault of the Toyota systems. With their limited rear power on launch it is very limited until the rear wheels do anything to help move forward. The Subaru system has shown shows it works much better in slick conditions because it truly provides power to all four wheels. Still, the Toyota system is good enough to climb our 600 foot mountain to get home (15 percent climb). It just does not work as well as Subaru and other AWD systems that are true AWD. This demo is much appreciated.
Fantastic review! Love the real world tests and the breakdown of the various systems!
Hmmm, that means Toyota AWD with Torque Vectoring isn't all it cracks up to be :(...
Yeah, looks like the rear wheels are not engaging... buuut, you should test it on rollers to see if it can move with traction for 1-2-3 wheels. That's how other channels test AWD... the fact that the rear wheels do not leave a mark on gravel does not necessarily mean that they don't get power, just that they don't break contact. Do it the right way, please
Yeah, I agree that doesn't mean there was no power sent to the rear wheels. It might have thrown 30% of the power to the rear wheels and started the vehicle moving without slip in the rear.
I disagree. He clearly provided a visual comparison with a Santa Fe, Subaru, and Mercedes to show how their awd systems responded. Testing the awd system in a manner different from other channels is not a demerit, its actually a plus.
@@captainjack6890 yeah, right. They should test on asphalt... if the wheels don't slip, no power is going there.
You need something with little to no friction at all, like ice or rollers. Dirt is not it...
@@ibiza1982 You clearly didnt watch the video. He tested it on snow, dirt and asphalt. The latter two had loose surfaces, hence poor traction conditions. I am not knocking channels who use rollers an inclines in a parking garage to SIMULATE offroad conditions. I am saying kudos to him for not doing what everybody else is doing but actually taking the vehicle to places similar to where we the consumers will actually be driving it. Have you ever driven on a roller on your way to camping? But I am pretty sure you must have driven in loose dirt or probably snow.
@@captainjack6890 you clearly don't understand my point: if you want to test and compare awd, you need identical situations with near zero friction on 1, 2 and 3 wheels to really see where the torque is going. Testing on gravel and snow is nearly useless and almost waste of time, first because there still is some friction and is the engine is not too powerful it will not spin the wheels and second because conditions can vary a lot from day to day and in different places (you know soft vs hard snow, etc.).
Great video! Thank you guys! I agree with some of the below commenters, I wish you’d do a 2019 rav4 hybrid video on the trail to test out the “TRAIL” mode.
Would like more info on hybrid AWD in snow. Driving to the chalet every weekend is tricky...I am use to Quattro
Love your off road traction reviews
Honda i-VTM can sent upto 70% power to rear wheels when needed and works very well in off road conditions.
13:47 Powering, powering, powering into oblivion 😂😂😂😂 you gotta love this guy
I have an old Highlander hybrid and the system always kicks in the rear electric motors when flooring it from a stop for max traction and acceleration. I much prefer it to the standard AWD system.
so in this setup when a car is driven electric only it is only RWD?
no, there's an electric motor in the front too. my older highlander hybrid can't drive on full electric but the newer ones the front electric motor would be doing most of the work
Couldn't get the rear wheels to spin in the snow from a launch. I mean, that AWD system is pure marketing.
So… what you’re saying is their AWD system worked, as wheel slippage (loss or traction) is bad. So… NOT pure marketing dribble.
& from what I have read it turns off at 25 mph. So anything over that your running fwd. not good
all i no is i tested a new rav limited in deep ass snow ans ice roads and it was awesome. engine louder than I like but it handled perfectly and was awesome in snow
Yeah that's what I bought it for, snow and gravel roads
Exactly. They system works. Just look at the graphic display. My rear wheels on my 2019 HL almost always show some rear wheel power when on the gas.
Very interesting. I have a 21 Rav4 XLE and just got my first taste of its performance in snow conditions. I found it to work very well and it did actually seem to power the rears from a hard launch. Since I was inside the car and had no one to observe from outside though I can't say for certain. I am also convinced that the snow mode does not "shut off" at higher speeds as Toyota seems to claim since cycling this mode on and off at highway speeds clearly cause a change in the sound of the drive train. With these systems evolving so quickly I suspect it's quite hard to remain current year to year on exactly how they work. Thanks for a very informative video.
It’s had to of had an upgrade in software since this, I had a 21 XLE AWD and it passed diagonal test with 2 tires in the air. It definitely relies on brakes for traction but when you stay on throttle, it’ll get you the traction you need for the most part. It was pretty good
8:35 "this AWD ain't for the best, their reputation's never been worse"
Octavio Guzman lmaoo ikr
The best car reviews ever.
Subaru definitely has the car and CUV systems figured out. Toyota AWD aka full time 4WD systems that really shine are the torsen center diffs on the land cruiser, 4Runner Limited, Lexus GX460 and LX570. All those vehicles have hi and lo 4wd, torsen center diffs, automatic gear boxes, etc.
Exactly! These vehicles are in an entirely different class however.
RAV4 is great as well.
Toyota has significantly dropped the ball for years now with cheaper parts and bs marketing all while raising the prices on their cars. People only continue to buy Toyota’s simply because of the name and I know because I used to work for them. It won’t be long before automakers like Kia/Hyundai take over when it comes to quality and durability. They’re already winning when it comes to value. Anyway great video. Love you’re reviews and breakdowns. Keep it up.
Yep I'm dissapointed. unfortunetely thise brands dont sell a competitor to the 4runner so I will have to go to an even shittier brand, jeep.
@davidrx795 true, I heavily dislike jeep, for many reasons (fiat, reliability, ect) but if that's the only way I can get a true offroader it will have to do. I'm really praying that the next gen 4runner is just as good as the 5th
Looking forward for more serious tests with the new hybrid RAV4 and see how it compares to a Forester.
Is there a limitation of speed like on the Prius AWD?
I love taking my 2020 RAV4 on the NC beaches & AZ rocky hils. It has had no prolem of doing a great job. It just works.
When I am in sand on the beach all 4 wheels spin from the start. So they must have fixed that problem.
@11:00 Yes and I have. That is what a RAV4 is made for off-road. Anyone that says no is not a true RAV4 driver or owner.
what trim rav 4 do you have?
Lift kit + bigger tires = love
After testing the 2019 RAV4 and 2019 Forester, which AWD system do you prefer? Which one feels more capable while off road?
Great video. Kudos to Toyota on their new RAV4: its come a long way from its tall-Tercel roots. I worry that Toyota is chasing down too many paths instead of making one great AWD.
In a 2019 Rav-4 hybrid, does the electronic-only "intelligent" linkage between front and rear axles mean if you have a flat on e.g. left rear tire, you only need to replace both rear tires for adequate match, or do you still have to replace all four tires (as in conventional awd) to avoid excessively stressing the transmission?
Subaru's AWD rocks! Great video!
Excellent analysis of the all wheel drive systems available on RAV 4 and Prius. These systems are part time AWD less sophisticated than what Toyota provides on its Land Cruiser series with central (Torsen) mechanical differential and locking capabilities of the rear differential. The video is very interesting with excellent explanations. Many thanks.
Great review...the only thing fake about it is the smile from the guy from Toyota.
Thanks for the vid.
Basically, Toyota doesn't make a real AWD system. Toyota makes a 4WD system, but markets it as an AWD system in that it is a part-time AWD system. It's not like Toyota to try and pull some trickery to get buyers, until recently. Except that in the Toyota 4WD, the ECU is doing the switching, unless it's a 4runner, etc. I've seen test after test relating to this issue, and Toyota personnel always have a BS reason. The reason I have an '03 Rav4 is because my wife bought it, it keeps running despite me flooring it everyday, is cheap and easy to fix: Simply, reliable.
2003 actually has the last real full time awd system
I recently took the new Adventure off road. The new system its an improve, but still is a FWD feeling as shown in this video. And the engine is too noise when you accelerate hard, doesn't feel much powerful than new Forester, and departing angles and approach, are I think worst than previous gen. I would go for the Forester in this segment for better off road and comfort use.
Aril 25/19. The Rav4 Adventure or Trail in Canada has a engineering defect, it does not have a soundproofing pad under the hood, Toyota is floating a solution: $485.00- plus tax (Canadian) for the snap-in pad. A ton of complaints.
From my experience, less slippage and more traction is what you want when off roading in either Awds or traditional 4wds
Why would the back wheels need power if the front wheels are moving the car forward? In this video the front wheels are only barley slipping. This is clear because the car is moving forward! The car knows the fronts are slipping a bit but it also knows the car is moving forward, therefore the driver is not stuck. No need to send power to the rear. This is not a GX460 with a center differential. The awd system meant to get you moving or unstuck which is EXACTLY what the RAV4 is doing here...
Great review, I'm sure glad I switched away from the RAV4 and went with an AWD Honda Passport. The Honda AWD works awesome and sends up to 70% of the power to the rear wheels!
The GM Twin Clutch found on most FWD based GM SUVs offer similar torque vectoring AWD that can 100% to a single wheel while the other three slip.
But the Honda version doesn't allow disengagement so the fuel economy suffers.
Great review. WHERES THE AWD?
love how none of these are as good as a subaru's AWD system, they also happen to get much higher mpg.
Full time awd in the Subarus feels so much better in the rain and really all conditions. When you let off the gas all 4 wheels are still engaged.
What u really need is a LC150/200/300 torsen style 4x4 with lower gearing. Most important thing is that they dont say "too hot" after a mile offroading...
This video was better than expected. I usually only watch Alex on Auto's channel. I will be checking out more of your content!
Please put these new Toyota / Honda AWD systems on rollers. I’d love to see how they transfer power. Thanks.
I just tested on rollers new CR-V, petrol and hybrid versions. I didn't test new Rav4 Hybrid, but previous was really bad.
Would you have a video similar to this to compare the AWD on the 2019 Subaru Forester? Your channel has amazing videos!!! Keep up the amazing work!
Keith Cabrera nahh not necessary,, subaru is proven without question
As I commented below, the 2019 Rav4 Trail (in Canada) has a cheap out defect: there is no soundproofing pad under the hood resulting in a noisy interior cab, Toyota is aware of the complaints. They recently floated a solution for the 2019 owners: $485.00 plus tax (Canadian) for the pad. Instulation extra? April 25/19
how's the noise level after the pad installation ? I am looking into Rav4 Trail...
Francis, any updates...did you get it done..did it make a difference?
early 2000`s rav4 was real all wheel drive...then later they were part time up to 25 miles per hour..now they are only all wheel drive on paper
Thank you for this!! It has been on my mind a lot lately to find out the variations of AWD systems.
After watching a few of your videos, I started to enjoy your reviews. Keep up with the good work!
First channel that is honest! I always thought the brake attenuating systems that toyota puts out are horrible. My Tundra would always get hot on brakes and give me all kinds of messages.
Fantastic review, thank you for not just parroting the manufacturer's (marketing?) statements.
This is absolutely a fantastic episode
Do you have an update video for the new models Rav4 prime, trd off-road, xse models ? Crazy your test were in pnw I live in Seattle all my life and want to get an suv Rav4
Wow this video is very helpful.... Im buying a Subaru
Good luck with their engine problems
@@ninjazzrhythm400 ...and CVT!
@@normt5463 yeah, me and wife looking at the add the other day and we were wondering why the 2017 Forrester was only 16k and she wanted to buy it. Then i looked up the car history and it has transmission problems. I changed her mind real quick and save me from getting more headaches😢
@@ninjazzrhythm400 smart move!
NinJazz Rhythm Totally. Every Subaru ever manufactured have Engine problems, just like every RAV4 AWD system suck balls. I am buying a bicycle!
A Merkur XR4Ti t-shirt! I used to own 3 of them. They were great cars.
Excellent Vehicle review, I like the technical aspect of the review that’s a big bonus when it comes to buying a vehicle and I really appreciate the interesting content as well as different terrain.
Good job guys
What it looked like to me, when you said there was no torque to the rear wheels, is that the rear wheels actually got the car moving without wheelspin while the front wheels were still spinning. Anybody else see that?
This. Can. Be. Was thinking the same, since weight is shifted to the back a bit, meaning rear wheels would have more traction ... or?
If the rears DI not spin on gravel they might never spin on anything else.
@@normt5463 why should the rear wheels spin if they can get the car moving without spinning?
@@AlexandarHullRichter if on a loose surface material like gravel it would display how the torwue.is proportioned in this test. You are correct that the best tire grip is right at the limits of adhesion or threshold of grip.
The vehicle may just not have enough torque to create rear wheel slippage.
This is great. In process of buying a car, this was very helpful.
What did you end up buying?
@@carlauditts8514 Hyundai santa fe. I liked the interior slightly more.
Erick Estrada oh ok cool. no issues so far ? It is a quiet ride ? No road or wind noises? I’ve never own Hyundai brand and I might consider to get a Santa Fe 2021 with 2.4 engine 4 cylinder. I heard that you get lots of value / features for the price .
@@carlauditts8514 No issues since I bought it. Never thought to myself that it was loud while driving. I recommend to make sure the one you get has android auto and apple carplay, very convenient for driving.
Erick Estrada thank you so much for sharing . I love Subaru Forester and I’m thinking to get one in 2021 but I’m considering hybrid Highlander ( I dislike a bunch of stuff of the Highlander). I’ll check out the Santa Fe 2021 before I made a decision.
I got the 2022 Rav4 Prime. If i turn off ASC and all the other joy killers, I can get into a 4 wheel slide while turning and applying throttle on a super icy road. The rear motor (electric) is only rated at 53hp and there is simply not enough juice to put it into a slide if the grip is "too good" for the back tires. Sofar based on my own experience, it is a good enough AWD system for urban people, launching from traffic lights during winter time is no issue what so ever. Going through deep snow (for a city) is also no issue (if you have proper tires) even though you're "plowing" through the snow. Is it as fun as an Audi UR Quattro..? Hell no - but it gets the job done.
I like the AWD system in my 2011 highlander Limited. I have never experienced a lack of traction when taking off from a stop. Even on snow covered, rainy, or gravel roads. Can you tell me how this new system stack up against an older system like the one I have?
Well I’m more confused then ever on which vehicle I should buy. Both Subaru and Toyota make great long lasting vehicles. I think where the Rav4 lags in AWD it makes up for in it’s transmission with it’s 8speed automatic non CVT. I want a vehicle that’s super comfortable for long drives and every day trips with excellent gas milage but also want reliability on occasional light off road and driving in the snow. The cost on maintenance is something to consider also. Help!!
The Outback is more comfortable on long trips. I found the standard RAV4 engine to be too buzzy. The hybrid is a different animal and is great for longer trips, even though it’s less effective off-road.
We want a V6 RAV4! It’s too big and too heavy for a 2.5 4 cylinder engine
I've had my XSE for a few weeks now and even with only the 4 cylinder engine (plus the 2 electric motors), the vehicle has all the horse power it needs while still getting over 40 mpg.
Will B hybrid is 2 secs faster than the 4cyl you cant compare hybrid drivetrain to a gas version,,
@@willb9259 yep toyota hybrid suvs are beasts
Can't wait to drive the new 2014 rav4 adventure
I dont understand why the clutch system would be any better than the brake system when it comes to getting unstuck.
To take an rav4 more to the extreme you should lift up the ground clearance from 8.6 to 8.9 inches of ground clearance to the adventure trim and get the bfgoodrich ko2 off road tires so It can keep up with the 4Runner Tacoma and tundra on unforgiving rough trails
Thank you for your professional and scientific tests on those AWD system!
2021 HH Platinum awd doing well in Upper Midwest snow/ice/slush. I drove one month on the OEM Bridgestone Alenza Sport and they did surprisingly well thanks in part to the AWD-I. Trail mode is great when you want more traction. Our previous 2013 HH Limited awd-I was not a great winter driver until I got pure snow tires on it. I put 150k miles on that 2013 and it was so reliable and I still got $11,000 on the trade in. I wanted a far superior winter handling and still use as a summer tire so I went with an all-weather tire: Nokian WRG4 SUVs on the 2021. These Highlanders are built safe(got T-boned by silverado and hit deer), reliable, efficient, and hold their resale value well.
If you're here to research the AWD on a 2019 Highlander, check your window sticker. My 2019 XLE has Dynamic Torque Control AWD.
Please consider doing the all new Mazda 3 with AWD! Fantastic video as always!
We have a request in for the Mazda3 AWD Hatch.
Driving Sports TV Wonderful! Thx!
Why not test a Rav4 Hybrid for comparison? That’s really the only questionable system.
We don’t have access to one on the schedule yet. When we do get it (in a couple months, probably) we’ll be taking it on the same trails.
Driving Sports TV thank you! Looking forward to seeing such an inventive system’s real world performance. Too bad there’s no snow anymore.
@@drivingsports It will be really interesting to see the awd hybrid version with the same type of test that you have done. Very good video, the best I have found on the awd systems of the new rav4 ! Thanks !
@Driving Sports TV It will be really interesting to see the awd hybrid version with the same type of test that you have done. Very good video, the best I have found on the awd systems of the new rav4 ! Thanks !
@@drivingsports yes, that would be great.
I am looking for a hybrid AWD vehicle: RAV4, CR-V and Outlander PHEV are my options. Forester has a chain CVT in its hybrid so is out of the race ;)
The SUV will be used in Japanese mountains - no off road but definitely one wheel will loose 100% of its traction every now and again.
I would love to see CR-V AWD system on your channel - I do understand it will not be hybrid.
In fact Toyota no Rav4 awd is really effective compared to sh awd Honda, Hunday, Subaru etc. I’m a bit disappointed
Correct me if I’m wrong but Is that an XR4TI printed on your shirt???
Very informative, I'm not so sure those systems are that great. Snow is the biggest concern in my area and I've got hills. These systems seem inadequate for heavy snow where rear torque is a must have feature.
On the upside, they do also make the 4Runner. If I lived in the snowbelt that’s what I’d own. -RD
Driving Sports TV indeed...
Driving Sports TV Thanks, how does Hyundai’s Htrac compare? I was also considering the Telluride because I’m looking for 3 rows.
The Toyota AWD systems are inactive below 25 mph and only kick on power differential to the rear wheels below 25 mph when the computers are sensing that they need power or traction. It's essentially nonreliable. I don't want to say useless, but pretty much, having been in one where it failed to activate the AWD around 5 mph, and caused a crash.
As long it gets you out of the situation is what matters!
The thing that keeps me way from all wheel drive is that, from what I'm told, is you have to replace all your tires if one of them blows out or if the tread is different on any tire.
That's true - if you don't it can also impact the drive train and negate your warranty.
I service our cars and we tend to keep them for over a decade so I'd prefer FWD over AWD. You save when buying and get better fuel economy with less weight and less wear parts.
This worth to purchase them! Reliable vehicles! 👍👍👍
I got the real answers, thanx for the video.
Today i was looking couple Toyota Highlander and noticed all engine hanging on left side so that means transmission or drive shafts has direct connection to the front wheel, that means its All time front wheel drive with occasionally getting torque to rear axle. If car is front wheel drive why it needs crazy big 3.5L engine?🤔 direct drive shaft connection allows the even smaller engine to rotate the wheels and move the car, isn’t it?
So its very complicated, cause i want car that can go off-road wheen needed and I don’t want to stock somewhere in the snow where has no phone signal.
Now I need to think about what car I want yo buy again.
Hi.... will you be able to take the Rav4 Hybrid for offroading for the upcoming future?? I really wonder how will that works out.
One of the best informative videos out there! Thank you sir
Hey Driving Sports, what do you think of the 2006 Hy-Hi awd? Have you used it?
@drivingsports, I am late to the discussion but was wondering if you could make a comparison (in terms of off-road capability) between the Toyota hybrid AWD and i) the recently-introduced Nissan e-power eforce, ii) the Honda e-HEV AWD. Many thanks!
Why they lose time by using active system?
Why not passive system?
Thank you for the great video! It’s the best explanation of the AWD for Toyota that I’ve come across so far.
I was hoping someone can pitch in and help me answer something. I’m on the fence about purchasing an XLE Premium package (standard AWD) or a Limited trim (Dynamic Torque Vectoring AWD) RAV4. I live in Canada and we get quite a bit of snow. This AWD is my primary deciding factor between the two trims, and the difference in price between the two trims is roughly $4000. If the Dynamic Torque Vectoring AWD on the Limited trim is worth it and will make that much of a noticeable difference in the snow I’m willing to shell out the money for it, but if the difference is negligible I’d rather go with the XLE Premium package and save some money. Thank you in advance for any help!
I would say the difference between the two is minor in practice. The "next step up" from the standard RAV4 system in Toyota's lineup is to go with a truck-based auto-4WD setup like in the 4Runner Limited or Land Cruiser.
@@drivingsports thank you so much for the reply, I really appreciate it! This absolutely helps in my decision making process. Please keep up with the great videos!
Just because the rear wheels are not slipping does not mean they are not receiving torque. The car may only be sending the amount of torque the rear wheels can transfer to the ground. The car was successfully moving forward.
Quite a magical system by Toyota then. It also implies Mercedes and Subaru are behind in technology and they send too much power to the back wheels?
So the new AWD system is still good, and technically better than the previous version, but not by much. Like the difference between an iPhone X and Xs. The Xs would technically be better, but it's essentially the same thing as before