Found your channel a couple days ago when youtube recommended it on my home screen. Amazing content dude! Looking forward to watching all your new videos as they come out!
Just take your sock of, never work with electronics on wheeled office chairs, don't wear fluor green eighties sports clothes to match your computer age, and I hope for gods sake you didn't put vinyl on your floor. If those are met, no other precautions are needed.
I noticed, that the picture would look like it had been smoothed out. In other words, my experience was a lesser sharp picture. So it is a question on if I wanted sharp with lines, or smooth without lines. I choose the lines and sharpness. So it is really up to each person, if they want the one or the other. To me, the preferred solution are eighter a CRT or a Retrotink X2 Mini in combination with an LCD television.
Absolutely! On an LCD I prefer the blurrier picture as the artifacts are just too pronounced - but on a CRT it’s less so, so sharpness prevails. At least with this device we can choose :)
@@TheRetroShack True.... No one like the exact same as the next one. Some even say they like a stretched image that wide screen gives. Well... Not my cup of tea. As of now, my setup is pure LCD. I have gotten that Retrotink thingy, and I think it is really awesomme. I have also noticed, that the red/green artifacts are prone to white foreground (text). And when gaming, the bars are more or less gone. Plus my retrotink delivers ultra sharp image quality.
@@brostenen I prefer the 64 without as well. My takeaway from this is that we care for imperfection now these old micros are put through new screens which magnify flaws way too large for us to NOT notice now, while also not playing to the video signal's strengths. 'Cos viewing through my mini Trinitron monitor, the 64 looks a real computer enough anyway, with its high integrity, rich, sharp, clear detailed picture, like seeing any proper computer through a proper VDU. Games look arcadey, applications look professional and GEOS looks glossy and amazing. I don't notice any banding, nor do I care, the compatible CRT making the best of the video it does put out.
@@MrDustpile Yup. Well... There are also those that prefer using their framemeister for upscaling or some other solution. I am in the opinion, that vertical banding is the least of all issues that can be. One issue that are the biggest, is the smooth scrolling issue that can arise, when trying to make 50 herz run in 60 herz. Another important issue to take care of, is when things are moving in a 45 degree angle, then they can flicker. Like in the intro of winther games when the torch carrier is running up to light the fire. Or things becomming transparent when flashing, like in giana sisters. But it is true that larger screen sizes makes imperfections stand out. So 12 to 14 inch are the best for these old 8bit machines if you ask me.
@@brostenen Indeed. I've even had my head turned by green screens now. Collectable now too, which is amazing given how we yearned to escape them at one point. At school, by the time all was Windows 2, we just accepted when it was our turn to sit at the machines which still had green screens. Now we love them for making our micros look 'professional'!!
Frankly, I've never particularly noticed a worthwhile improvement, but as you mention YMMV. However, I have noticed that some fixes to the RF modulator AND some tuning on monitors/TVs supporting Composite input do a LOT towards improving the quality of the output (and corresponding input). I often find that LCD screen input is the problem and less so the C-64 (though it can be improved). Jail bars do show on other computers (maybe somewhat less than the C-64, but I'd start on the monitor first at that point).
All good points, and absolutely agree. I mainly use the C64 on an old CRT screen anyway so it's a negligible effect in any case, but some people report good results, others not so much. I guess a lot depends on the board, the VIC-II, the overall 'noise' of the signal. But for the price, it's worth having on the shelf if you pick up a particularly noisy C64 :)
You have to watch a C64 either via RF on a really small CRT TV with saturation turned down to 0, maximum 30cm diameter, or on a monochrome monitor. They made an unbearable color palette, so it does not matter if you see it in b&w, amber, green or "color".
I've always thought a better idea would be a circuit that quantizes the output to the spec levels. The VIC-II only has nine luma levels (5 in the original version), so if the quantizer could just force the output to those exact levels, you'd have rock solid output unless the luma noise exceeded the threshold between levels.
I had a monochrome amber phosphor momitor, if I wanted color I had to plug into the TV and it tended to look like crap. I recently saw a C64 with a Commodore color monitor at the National Videogame Museum and it blew me away how good the image and the colors looked. In particular, the colors were very vivid and NES-like, nothing like the pastel colors I remembered on my TV and seen on a ton of videos. I wonder if it had some sort of upgrade or if it only looked that good on a Commodore monitor.
Stick to your amber monitor. Excellent screen for the C64 video garbage. Good colour on a C64 is an illusion, you only can get when eating magic mushrooms. If you want colour, get a Speccy 128, or better, a CPC.
But the problem with the Lumafix installed is ... you can not put the really necessary heat sink back again onto the VIC-2 chip! That you also should mention!
@@TheRetroShack At 3:15 you say that "the actual keyboard won't fit with the Lumafix64 in place and this heatsink". There might be other alternatives though, like using a good-sized blob of thermal paste.
My 1983 C64 had two POTs you could adjust and they modified the gamma and chroma output of the RF and composite video output, I messed about with mine to get a 70s video effects processor type effect as a kid in the 80s lol. Don't know if these were removed from later motherboards though.
@@TheRetroShack I got mine at the start of March 83 without the silver label so it was probably in the end of 1982 PAL production run but it did have S-video unlike the NTSC early 1982 silver label machines.
Been on the fence about getting one since i use a video scaler for video capture also nice too see someone else using sordan.ie gotten a tonne of retro items from them.
Been trying to get this to work for ages with no luck. twiddled the pots in every combination and there are always bars, can never get rid of them. very frustrating.
Hi RetroShack, Thanks for the video on lumaFix. I have a breadbin C64 will this work too? Secondly, can you please let me know how are you connected to an LCD monitor from the C64?
Hi there - Yes, you’ll be fine with a Lumafix on the Breadbin model - in fact you’ll have a little more room inside :). As for the LCD, I have a SCART lead for the C64 and that goes into a SCART>HDMI converter :)
I got one of these but chose not to keep it in my 64 because it makes things way too blurry for my taste. It's an inherent flaw in the design and can't really be done away with.
Yep, it really depends on which tv the machine is plugged into. If I spend the time on each different set I can see a difference - but it can be quite marginal.
I'll do some investigation :) My output is through the RGB and the Lumafix64 should improve across all outputs because it cleans the output from the VIC chip before it's sent to any output circuitry :) Thanks for watching!
Be careful which socket you get. That socket in the version you have looks much better than the one I received! The Lumafix in yours has holes for the pins to simply slot into, where as mine had a very different socket that was far too tight and bent the pins on the Vic2 chip. Luckily I was able to bend them back and remove the Lumafix: A review with the socket type I had, click to enlarge the picture for a closer look at that lumafix socket: videogameperfection.com/2016/08/17/lumafix-64-review/
not a really huge improvment of the picture, it gets less sharp ... that's all a big improvment can be done by doing converting some parts in the modulator, but only in NTSC modulators
It's actually quite a good improvement on a CRT screen but LCD's really struggle with the video output from the VICII. - I'll have a look at the modulator conversions, sounds interesting!
@@TheRetroShack Hi, I describe it here on my website: a68k.de/galeria/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=40 I did and published this many years ago. If you wish, I can add an English version. It also improved the picture on my PAL 64, I swap the modulator to a ntsc version and did the modifications, but the picture is not that good, like in a ntsc machine, but much much better after the modification. In my "Arcade" a68k.de/galeria/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=42 I have a ntsc 64, the modification really improved the picture great "Adrian's Digital Basement" picked up this topic about one year ago, so there is also an English version of the topic ;)
Interesting. I watched the 8 bit guy and Adrian's DB episode about the Lumafix, and they both said it doesn't help. It seemed like their complaint was that when you make the lighter areas better, it makes the darker areas worse and vice versa. As seen here: th-cam.com/video/l3MiPRLBhaQ/w-d-xo.html Are you experiencing this differently?
To be honest, it’s a marginal improvement on my particular machine and only really noticeably better on an LCD screen - but it is an improvement. I guess everyone’s mileage may vary.
I think we just have to accept the video output of any C64 is what the germans call "Scheisse". You can't fix it. Even after your mod, there is still tons of bleed and the annoyin pixel-checker-pattern. The C64 can't be a ZX Spectrum, how hard it tries to be (the next step on the ladder of junk video output). Thank god we have CPC's and MSX's. For the C64: with its palette of various flavours of diahrea, your best bet is a monitor that puts sunshine on the pile of shit and only shows the luma signal: the venerable Philips 80 in Amber, also known as the BM7522.
I've not found it as clear cut as that, it definitely depends on what VIC chip you have and also makes the most difference on an LCD. CRT's there seems to be little difference. I guess your mileage may vary. :)
Just spent a pleasant morning watching all your content, while waiting for the wife to get ready. Subscribed and looking forward to more.
Glad to have you aboard - and glad you're enjoying the channel :)
Same here ! Great content.
Found your channel a couple days ago when youtube recommended it on my home screen. Amazing content dude! Looking forward to watching all your new videos as they come out!
Thank you so much - glad you’re enjoying it!
I all ways use a Anti-Static Wristband Wrist Strap, when pulling chips out.
I use one of these -very nice and I find it less irritating :)
Just take your sock of, never work with electronics on wheeled office chairs, don't wear fluor green eighties sports clothes to match your computer age, and I hope for gods sake you didn't put vinyl on your floor. If those are met, no other precautions are needed.
I noticed, that the picture would look like it had been smoothed out. In other words, my experience was a lesser sharp picture. So it is a question on if I wanted sharp with lines, or smooth without lines. I choose the lines and sharpness.
So it is really up to each person, if they want the one or the other. To me, the preferred solution are eighter a CRT or a Retrotink X2 Mini in combination with an LCD television.
Absolutely! On an LCD I prefer the blurrier picture as the artifacts are just too pronounced - but on a CRT it’s less so, so sharpness prevails. At least with this device we can choose :)
@@TheRetroShack True.... No one like the exact same as the next one. Some even say they like a stretched image that wide screen gives. Well... Not my cup of tea. As of now, my setup is pure LCD. I have gotten that Retrotink thingy, and I think it is really awesomme. I have also noticed, that the red/green artifacts are prone to white foreground (text). And when gaming, the bars are more or less gone. Plus my retrotink delivers ultra sharp image quality.
@@brostenen I prefer the 64 without as well. My takeaway from this is that we care for imperfection now these old micros are put through new screens which magnify flaws way too large for us to NOT notice now, while also not playing to the video signal's strengths.
'Cos viewing through my mini Trinitron monitor, the 64 looks a real computer enough anyway, with its high integrity, rich, sharp, clear detailed picture, like seeing any proper computer through a proper VDU. Games look arcadey, applications look professional and GEOS looks glossy and amazing. I don't notice any banding, nor do I care, the compatible CRT making the best of the video it does put out.
@@MrDustpile Yup. Well... There are also those that prefer using their framemeister for upscaling or some other solution. I am in the opinion, that vertical banding is the least of all issues that can be. One issue that are the biggest, is the smooth scrolling issue that can arise, when trying to make 50 herz run in 60 herz. Another important issue to take care of, is when things are moving in a 45 degree angle, then they can flicker. Like in the intro of winther games when the torch carrier is running up to light the fire. Or things becomming transparent when flashing, like in giana sisters. But it is true that larger screen sizes makes imperfections stand out. So 12 to 14 inch are the best for these old 8bit machines if you ask me.
@@brostenen Indeed. I've even had my head turned by green screens now. Collectable now too, which is amazing given how we yearned to escape them at one point. At school, by the time all was Windows 2, we just accepted when it was our turn to sit at the machines which still had green screens. Now we love them for making our micros look 'professional'!!
Back when I had a stock C64, I put a lumafix64 in. It is great, especially when used with S-video/SVHS.
Yep - I'm getting a decent result out of mine too :)
@@TheRetroShack I've since moved on to Ultimate64. 😀
Frankly, I've never particularly noticed a worthwhile improvement, but as you mention YMMV. However, I have noticed that some fixes to the RF modulator AND some tuning on monitors/TVs supporting Composite input do a LOT towards improving the quality of the output (and corresponding input). I often find that LCD screen input is the problem and less so the C-64 (though it can be improved). Jail bars do show on other computers (maybe somewhat less than the C-64, but I'd start on the monitor first at that point).
All good points, and absolutely agree. I mainly use the C64 on an old CRT screen anyway so it's a negligible effect in any case, but some people report good results, others not so much. I guess a lot depends on the board, the VIC-II, the overall 'noise' of the signal. But for the price, it's worth having on the shelf if you pick up a particularly noisy C64 :)
It's been at least 25 years since I last used my C= 64 and 1701, but I can't remember the picture being that bad, even after you applied the fix.
It is MUCH worse on modern LCD's (such as this one) - on a CRT screen artifacts are barely noticeable. CRT is the way to go :)
You have to watch a C64 either via RF on a really small CRT TV with saturation turned down to 0, maximum 30cm diameter, or on a monochrome monitor. They made an unbearable color palette, so it does not matter if you see it in b&w, amber, green or "color".
@5:47 the text is much clearer in the before. Maybe the camera didn’t pickup what you’re seeing in person.
I've always thought a better idea would be a circuit that quantizes the output to the spec levels. The VIC-II only has nine luma levels (5 in the original version), so if the quantizer could just force the output to those exact levels, you'd have rock solid output unless the luma noise exceeded the threshold between levels.
Interesting idea! Now I wonder if anyone’s up for the challenge? :)
Great ! wonderfully explained
Glad you found it interesting :)
I had a monochrome amber phosphor momitor, if I wanted color I had to plug into the TV and it tended to look like crap. I recently saw a C64 with a Commodore color monitor at the National Videogame Museum and it blew me away how good the image and the colors looked. In particular, the colors were very vivid and NES-like, nothing like the pastel colors I remembered on my TV and seen on a ton of videos. I wonder if it had some sort of upgrade or if it only looked that good on a Commodore monitor.
Stick to your amber monitor. Excellent screen for the C64 video garbage. Good colour on a C64 is an illusion, you only can get when eating magic mushrooms. If you want colour, get a Speccy 128, or better, a CPC.
But the problem with the Lumafix installed is ... you can not put the really necessary heat sink back again onto the VIC-2 chip!
That you also should mention!
Think I mention that in the video? If not, I'll pop back and stick a card on :)
@@TheRetroShack At 3:15 you say that "the actual keyboard won't fit with the Lumafix64 in place and this heatsink". There might be other alternatives though, like using a good-sized blob of thermal paste.
My 1983 C64 had two POTs you could adjust and they modified the gamma and chroma output of the RF and composite video output, I messed about with mine to get a 70s video effects processor type effect as a kid in the 80s lol. Don't know if these were removed from later motherboards though.
I’ll pop a few open and take a look :)
@@TheRetroShack I got mine at the start of March 83 without the silver label so it was probably in the end of 1982 PAL production run but it did have S-video unlike the NTSC early 1982 silver label machines.
Been on the fence about getting one since i use a video scaler for video capture also nice too see someone else using sordan.ie gotten a tonne of retro items from them.
I’d recommend giving it a go - it’s not a permanent fit so if it doesn’t work out you can reverse the decision :)
@@TheRetroShack most of the american users go via of the svideo option for a better picture
2:42
there goes the warranty.....
:) I'm not the first in here by a long shot I reckon :)
Been trying to get this to work for ages with no luck. twiddled the pots in every combination and there are always bars, can never get rid of them. very frustrating.
Thanks. I’d like to think I could do this and other things on my c64 but it’s a little scary. I might start with something simple!
You can do it!
Really enjoying your content.
Your music is a bit loud in comparison to your voice. Had to sit here with the remote, turning the volume up and down.
Yes, I’ve been struggling with audio (not my forte) but have invested in some new tech so hopefully will get better as I learn :)
Hi RetroShack, Thanks for the video on lumaFix. I have a breadbin C64 will this work too? Secondly, can you please let me know how are you connected to an LCD monitor from the C64?
Hi there - Yes, you’ll be fine with a Lumafix on the Breadbin model - in fact you’ll have a little more room inside :). As for the LCD, I have a SCART lead for the C64 and that goes into a SCART>HDMI converter :)
@@TheRetroShack thank you
I wonder how the Lumafix and VIC-II fit inside a breadbin, since the VIC-II is normally under a Tin.
Well, I’ve got a couple of Breadbins lying around - I’ll have a go :)
I got one of these but chose not to keep it in my 64 because it makes things way too blurry for my taste. It's an inherent flaw in the design and can't really be done away with.
Yep, it really depends on which tv the machine is plugged into. If I spend the time on each different set I can see a difference - but it can be quite marginal.
You can use a pin straightener tool. I like mine
I like to live dangerously :) Oh, and I don't have one... :) I'll take a look at them.
One of the various RF modulator upgrades can improve picture quality also. I not sure which one is best for the C64c though?
I'll do some investigation :) My output is through the RGB and the Lumafix64 should improve across all outputs because it cleans the output from the VIC chip before it's sent to any output circuitry :) Thanks for watching!
on my c64 breadbin the vertical lines are pink color does this fix that i have one of these in a c64c and it fixes the vertical lines
Hmmm, didnt really see a big improvement. Nice to have adjustments to make it look the way its better for you.
Yes, on an LCD screen it’s not as clear an improvement as on a CRT but it’s still a bit better - your mileage may vary :)
So the most precious chip in the C64 the VIC that gets really hot has now to work without heatsink ? I do not think is a good idea.
Is the LumaFix compatible with the VIC-II Kawari?
Be careful which socket you get. That socket in the version you have looks much better than the one I received! The Lumafix in yours has holes for the pins to simply slot into, where as mine had a very different socket that was far too tight and bent the pins on the Vic2 chip. Luckily I was able to bend them back and remove the Lumafix: A review with the socket type I had, click to enlarge the picture for a closer look at that lumafix socket:
videogameperfection.com/2016/08/17/lumafix-64-review/
Thanks for the tip!
@@TheRetroShack you're welcome. I've since ordered one similar to the one you used in the video - so thanks for bringing it to my attention!
not a really huge improvment of the picture, it gets less sharp ... that's all
a big improvment can be done by doing converting some parts in the modulator, but only in NTSC modulators
It's actually quite a good improvement on a CRT screen but LCD's really struggle with the video output from the VICII. - I'll have a look at the modulator conversions, sounds interesting!
@@TheRetroShack Hi,
I describe it here on my website: a68k.de/galeria/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=40
I did and published this many years ago.
If you wish, I can add an English version.
It also improved the picture on my PAL 64, I swap the modulator to a ntsc version and did the modifications, but the picture is not that good, like in a ntsc machine, but much much better after the modification.
In my "Arcade" a68k.de/galeria/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=42
I have a ntsc 64, the modification really improved the picture great
"Adrian's Digital Basement" picked up this topic about one year ago, so there is also an English version of the topic ;)
Interesting. I watched the 8 bit guy and Adrian's DB episode about the Lumafix, and they both said it doesn't help. It seemed like their complaint was that when you make the lighter areas better, it makes the darker areas worse and vice versa. As seen here: th-cam.com/video/l3MiPRLBhaQ/w-d-xo.html
Are you experiencing this differently?
To be honest, it’s a marginal improvement on my particular machine and only really noticeably better on an LCD screen - but it is an improvement. I guess everyone’s mileage may vary.
I think we just have to accept the video output of any C64 is what the germans call "Scheisse". You can't fix it. Even after your mod, there is still tons of bleed and the annoyin pixel-checker-pattern. The C64 can't be a ZX Spectrum, how hard it tries to be (the next step on the ladder of junk video output).
Thank god we have CPC's and MSX's.
For the C64: with its palette of various flavours of diahrea, your best bet is a monitor that puts sunshine on the pile of shit and only shows the luma signal: the venerable Philips 80 in Amber, also known as the BM7522.
Lunafix does not work
it's a waste of money.....
I've not found it as clear cut as that, it definitely depends on what VIC chip you have and also makes the most difference on an LCD. CRT's there seems to be little difference. I guess your mileage may vary. :)