Great review! I'm still a bit disappointed they didn't include built-in bindable finger lifts seeing how it's a unique and essential function in the F-15 startup procedure. But I think I'll get over that. The hard part is I want something versatile for multiple aircraft like the EX but the lack of speed brake switch is surprisingly my hangup to switching from my current F-18 grips. But I really am tempted by the extra in-line buttons for things like Track-IR recenter.
With the virtual idle / cut off buttons on the axis you can still achieve a similar effect of the lifts. Speedbrakes are one of those you don't realise it's value until it's gone items! The little inline buttons are great for 'service' controls like reset indeed.
I agree! It's certainly something that'd be nice to have on WW's next Orion base design. The detents being an external add-on, it's sadly not practical with the current generation.
@@JSRJS It's fine if you fly that exact airplane, but for the rest of us that switch machines like gloves additional buttons on 4-way hats (that might not be there in the original aircraft, but are there in another similar aircraft) and such are well appreciated. Inline and additional buttons would be as well. It would be cool to have a detailed setup for every module, but that's basically a collection of simpits. I'm sure I'd go for it if I was a millionaire, alas... ;)
@@RedKiteRender The detent cutoffs are already used in the startup, tho. You get the APU up, then you finger lift a throttle, and then you push the idle cutoff at 26% rpm. But, yeah when I saw the inline buttons I figured those would be useful for the finger lift starter action.
Hi there, just got my new gemini base an F-15E grips an to anybody wondering the left grip now has💯 full functionality when i first plugged in no left grip at all did the quick very simply firmware update restart the software an bam all buttons an axis work as expected even the vibration on both grips works .. P.S i got the standard connecter's as i don't really use fast movers an i didn't think the gemini base would have the stop/start detent bindabul-(totally a word🤣) buttons .it dose so if your a cloud surfer an your looking at this as cheaper option get the fingerlift connecters . Anyway completely happy with it an as stated fully💯 functional💢💢
Incredible review RedKite, truly love your work mate. Looking forward to more stock coming, I've pre-ordered one of each. Always great seeing a TH-cam notification of a new RedKite video :0). Cheers mate, hope you're doing well.
Much appreciated Nick! Doing okay, unfortunately not had the time to make much lately, but, a lot of hardware to review in the last month! so expect some new toys to look at in the near future :)
Nice video Redkite , Winwing are a good option although I did have issues with my F18C stick I bought from them last year. I found the attachment from stick too the base was a bit of an issue such that the pins inside the connectors broke which caused some agitation. I’m still trying to resolve the issue with Winwing. That said the Orion 2 throttles are excellent and have great versatility
Was thinking about getting one of these, but the issue where the rotary encoders have to operate as multi-stage switches is honestly a major turnoff. Is it much of an issue?
It's not a major issue unless the sim does not provide access to a CW and CCW keybind, you get less fidelity in this binding, but most times it doesn't matter.
Hi Redkite! First off, thank you for the phenomenal and in-depth review. I know how much work goes into these videos and it is greatly appreciated. I do have one question. As someone that currently uses a potato of a HOTAS and has no real experience with TM Warthog, Winwing etc...Would it be safe to assume that I would be able to comfortably bind all the A-10 controls to the F-15E throttle? I use the A-10 as an example as it appears to be the most demanding in terms of 'essential' bindings. The 'E' varient would probably be my choice given the speed brake limitation. Thank you again and have a great weekend! :)
E has enough for all the major controls. However. It does lack a 4 way hat for the radio, which will be a minor issue if you’re using Simple radio standalone (srs) or flying a campaign mission which require realistic comms, you can get by with keyboard binds for those. You could bind it to the left hand grip pinky switch also.
@@RedKiteRender Thank you for the response, that puts my mind at ease! It's been a nightmare trying to visualise what binds where without a physical reference. Much appreciated sir :)
Truth told it's hard to say, they're publicly available best to my knowledge. But buying high end flight sim gear tends to be a game of waiting for stock or pre-orders sadly.
@@RedKiteRender I actually figured it out, google sends you to the complete wrong page for some reason. Do you have any idea how long winwing's restocks take? The grips are out of stock at the moment.
Thanks for the review. As much crap as people give Thrustmaster for being "overpriced", they don't typically include controls that are hard to realistically access and don't actuate cleanly (user knows what they are trying to do, and easily knows that they successfully did it). This throttle + grip had the promise to be a universally flexible dual throttle grip competing with the CM3, but when you have controls that are a bit too difficult to use, too sloppy to use right, or hard to know you're using right it's not very useful. Space simmers especially won't like it, and mil simmers may have a use if it's at least works well enough to assign something like SRS radio channel control or push to talk. I like my F-16EX as a right hand grip / TEDAC for AH-64D, but frankly for A-10C and F-16C usage, the TMS switch (the most common switch) is not crisp compared to the TM Warthog at all. Activating it is maybe easy enough to confirm, but coming off of the click back to center does not give the proper feedback at all making multiple presses something I need to spend extra mental cycles confirming in the sim/jet because I cannot feel it. I'm glad you're a reviewer who points this out. As it stands, TM has a better F-16 throttle than Winwing because it didn't add functionality to the grip that players find really difficult to use.
I think you've misunderstood how the radar elev works in various aircraft. An absolute radar axis, (eg F-16c) you set the control down 20% it'll stop the elevation at 20% down. A relative radar axis (such as the F-15e/F/A-18c) you move the control down 20%, it will continuously angle downwards at 20% speed until it hits it's limit, fully down. So with the F-15e and this controller, you have to manually lower the axis, then return it to neutral to stop the elevation continuing downwards beyond what you wanted.
I have the EX grip and Orion 2 and honestly kinda wish I got the Virpil CM3 or the Stecs. I've had a few issues with the buttons, I've had lots of issues recently where it just disconnects from my pc while im playing dcs, the lock to hold the 2 throttles together took over a week to wear in to the point it was usable with one hand, I prefer the customization I can do in the virpil and vkb software (I have virpil rudder pedals and a vkb joystick), and the Orion 2 base is kinda awkwardly laid out imo. I have never tried the CM3 but if someone has one and they want to trade.......... I didn't think I'd like the motors but honestly, they provide information I otherwise wouldn't have, like when a weapon comes off the rail in some aircraft, or in the huey it tells you the moment you enter transitional lift. Kinda useful, not necessary, but nice. Also at 2:54, to hear you say "roll on over to the right" and see the jet roll left upset my brain lol
I'd likely get the CM3 too, but here in Canada, Winwing has a warehouse, so shipping is free, taxes and duties are also included, which makes it literally HALF what Virpil is charging. So technically I could buy two Winwing throttles and keep one as a spare😁 . Virpil is completely out of touch with their prices unfortunately...and they're never in stock.
I'm a bit confused by the part about the gray pinky radar wheel and the limitation of how many total axes can be set up in the config software. Am I correct that if I were to use that axis, I could not use the 2 levers on the right side of the throttle base as axes, or does it just happen that your setup uses those in a button configuration? Edit - looked again. I see that it takes up a rotary encoder slot / channel. OK I can live with that. Love my old HOTAS Orion F-18 stuff (especially speedbrake) but could really use those EX buttons for A-10, F-15, F-16.
The two axis levers work fine, it's the extra modes, such as the rotary encoder knobs for HDG, CRS, LTS and HMD that cannot be enabled, nor any extra virtual axis modes.
OK excellent! Now I suddenly understand why you can only pick one to be an axis. I just settle for the rather poor "make it push a button when I turn it" method, even though the way I have it set up is horrible for HDG/CRS. Gotta have my sweet sweet mixture and prop levers though!
So i've got the Orion 1 and really like the physical detents of it. However I really like the EX grips. I know that currently the left grip does not fully work with the Orion 1 and you lose some functionality there. Is this something they plan to fix at some point... or are us Orion 1 guys just left behind?
Sadly it's a physical cable limit, the design simply can't communicate the extra switches, in fact, they had to sacrifice the firmware and hardware version reporting telemetry on the LHG / Orion 1 too!
Question. I own the Orion 2 with the F16 throttle (that has the side rail as well due to the F16 side throttle method). I don't want to buy another throttle base. You think it would be a simple 5 minute swap from the F16 winwing thottle handle to the F15e? I do fly both planes so I plan on swapping some times
Looking at my Orion 1 with Viper throttle, I'd say it'll be a lot slower, removing the handle, fitting the detent kit + handle together and maybe having to remove the side rail (you might get away without removing it) it'll be a bit of a hassle to do. Should be possible within 8-10 mins at a guess. I'm not sure what the dimensions are for the Orion 2 side rail kit, so i couldn't say if the rail has to go. Personally i leave my Viper throttle mounted permanently on it's Orion 1 base as i don't fancy the trouble.
@@RedKiteRender Good info. I'll definately let you know what I found out. I only own 1 Orion 2 throttle base. I also plan on buying the f-18 throttle handle when I get the f-15e one. Hope I can swap between all three relatively easy
Do the throttle flap switches to enable engine just like in the real F-15e (are they mapped as buttons?) or are they simply used to physically lock throttle in off/on modes
There are two virtual buttons, One activates when you enter the Cut off position and another when you leave it, If you bind it up as engine start / stop it'll match up with what you're doing in the cockpit. The lift paddles themselves are not buttons, just locking the handle movement. You can also configure the percentage at which the physical afterburner detent sits.
I really don’t see the point in vibrating a throttle 🫤. Just unnecessary complications added to a already complicated stick. I will stick to my Warthog. Thanks for sharing 🙃🙃👍🏻👍🏻
I'm not paid to review these, just the hardware is 'free' all said, about 20 hours of work, and a couple weeks of using them rather than my normal setup.I simply can't afford to buy sim hardware myself often. So, most reviews are going to be what manufacturers offer to me instead. Edit: I realise this may be in relation to other channel content instead? At the moment I've been sadly tight on personal time. You'll be happy to hear Raven One DF 04 is being recorded tomorrow, but tutorials are on hold as i lack the time, naturally a hardware review has to take precedence, which put my F-15e tutorials on hold. As stands I've another hardware review in the works, after that, i hope to get tutorials rolling weekly, time permitting.
I don’t know what you’re talking about regarding the “lack of a dedicated air brake switch” - ITS RIGHT THERE AT THE TOP! @05:16. It’s exactly the same as all the other air brake switches - it’s the circular fwd/centre/back momentary light grey switch. Are you crazy or was it a brain fart day?
That's the radio key my friend, it's also momentary on both sides, so you've got to hold it, just the same as a hat switch. An air brake switch is typically momentary on the aft side, toggle on the front, allowing you to close and not have to hold it. This should have been converted to an air brake on the EX handle. In fact the air brake on the E grip (side, grey coolie hat style switch) is toggle on both sides!
Nice review! A buddy of mine just informed me there is another choice you have for the airbrake in DCS which lets you push it once, letting the button go but the airbrake still goes all the way in again even though you don´t hold it down anymore. That is a good enough work around for me. Best regards.
this is great but only if Winwing would sell the damn thing!! Its been on the website store for over a month that says either out of stock or available for pre ordering its in the website but not available at all. Also WINWING get a dam Z-axis please. I cannot fly my Apache because I have no way to control the tail rotor! Its been Months that its been out of stock. And before everyone screams "get pedals" i have a leg disability that wont allow me to use them! Winwing sucks at having product which is why im switching to Virpil because that have Z axis on stick and always has product available!!
Love these! I had the F18 with the Orion2 base and had to get the F15EX and damn... it's a game changer when flying the A10CII or the KA-50. The extra buttons really come into play for those modules. Love the whole Winwing ecosystem.
any info about editing the vibration modes for any given dcs module? Like vibrate when using apache cannon, or during a stall in f4 phantom. Cant find any tutorials or docs on this...
Not in the market for this throttle (at the moment) but had to click the review when I saw it was you. Very interesting and a great review as always, well done and thanks!
great video man, Was wondering if you've had any plans to maybe do a video on what binds you use for what with the Orion 2 stuff. Ofc not for every air craft but just as a general idea as to what is good to use for certain stuff. Thanks in advance :)
@@RedKiteRender I want to get a new throttle but idk I just find the warthog to do the job for everything I fly. I think I would dislike going between all the different switchology
Same stick setup here and also looking for a new throttle. The main issue I have with the TM Warthog throttle is the fact that not alle switch-positions cause a DX signal and the resulting need to use TARGET (or a similar app).
The F/A-18 handles seem more ergonomical to me, and better in line with my main aircraft (Tomcat) with the 2 4-way hats on the side for wing sweep and radio, a proper speed brake switch, and the 2 button PAL and uncage buttons plus the external light pinky switch.
So you totally lose function of certain knobs on the base with the EX grip, or is this merely the Windows 32 button limit and does not apply to games that can handle more buttons?
(update: multiple real WSOs have confirmed the real thing IS actually self-centering, so WW did it wrong.) Wondering what's the source of the pinky radar elevation wheel on the real one being self-centered/spring loaded like the one on the F-18? The way the wheel is described in the "POH"s of both 15E(1993) and A~D looks like it's not the 18 style but the 16 style to me. And there is a video showing the real grips of 15A/C on bilibili confirming it. Can any Eagle driver/maintainer shed some light on this topic?
Notso has expressed concern that the elev wheel of the Winwing grip might not be spring-loaded in early July on discord. In other words, it should be spring-loaded, as opposed to the vid from bilibili. No clue which is right or wrong, would love to learn more about this as well!
I'm mirroring memory of Notso talking about it, and ref to the way it functions inside dcs as relative. It would be very odd to function that way and not spring return given the awkward pinky placement. Much easier to just roll your palm over the edge and have it auto return, not needing to grip. It's possible variants have have had both styles over the years too, which would be interesting to hear. Books often don't reflect the realities of an aircraft, as an example the springs 'might' fail often, so you pull them in later versions. I'd love to hear if others have detailed info on its history!
@@RedKiteRenderYeah later I saw multiple real WSOs confirming that the real thing IS actually self-centering, and it's like you said, WW did it wrong. Not sure whether it's bcz they've modeled it based on an old A~D eagle or something... but anyway, thx for the info!
I currently still have a TWCS throttle that I paid $88 CAD ($58 USD) new, and works fine. I fly mostly helicopters, but also the F18, F16, Harrier, and A10. I have no interest in buying the F15 or F14 atm. Knowing this, would I still be best getting the F15E throttle just for compatibility with all planes? Would you still suggest the F15E over the EX? The EX will cost me about $33 more right now ($364 vs $331 CAD).
Just picked up the 15EX throttle and 16EX stick combo with the finger lifts. Pretty awesome for its price point. My only gripe is the stupid afterburner detent, mine is SUUUUPER slick so I can't even feel the afterburner detent. I took some sandpaper to it to rough it up a bit and give it more resistance, but they really need to re-think their fingerlift and detent design. Its such a shame. They should offer a free upgrade to it, with as poorly designed as it is IMO.
Greetings and thanks for the video. You've mentioned some community sites where one can download a binding profile. I was trying to find any yet perhaps being completely new to the scene I wasn't able to find any. I'm on MSFS and have just started taking lessons :) with a hope to one day switch from Cessna to F16.
Bit disappointed to hear the antenna elevation wheel on the side isn't a return-to-center type, I don't think any other reviewers have brought that up. The pinkie hat thing is unusual, seems like winwing can't decide on when it's appropriate to diverge from the real thing or not- The F-16 grip has that 5 way hat above the manual range knob that makes it difficult to use the knob, but now they won't diverge from the real button design to make it more usable. Either way, looks neat, but I think I'm sticking with my F-16 grip for now.
Life circumstances meant i had to decline the original window to receive and review it last year. I'll be getting in touch with WW about the FSB base, once I've got some time to review it. Got other cool things in the works right at the moment!
Beautiful throttle. Any plans to continue your tutorial series on the Mirage F1? Your videos on the C variant are second to none and the F1EE certainly has some quirks to work out. 😅
At the moment i've no plans, my time is too limited rather unfortunately I've not been able to keep up, this review should have been done about 1 week earlier had things gone to schedule!
I'm reluctant to order the EX solely due to the speed brake switch. I'm curious how hard is it to 'swap out' these switches. I'll totally pay a premium If someone manages to create such a modification kit.
I've held back on buying the Virpil CM3 throttle for the same reason. I've been so close to pulling the trigger, but that air-brake switch. If you've a little technical ability you could wire in an air-brake switch yourself, but i think you'd need to replace the entire grip side panel to do so (it unscrews and comes off) Which means a 3d printing and digital design work to replace it, no small feat all said and done.
The Warthog speed break switch is two buttons only, not a hat... unless they've changed it. I went from a TM Warthog throttle to Orion2 with Hornet grips and the build quality for the same price is astonishing. Being metal is huge. No regrets in not buying another Warthog to replace mine when it died. Still waiting on my EX grip to actually ship....
@@Whiskey11Gaming it's a (1)-0-1 switch, as in, one side is latching and another is non-latching. Which is kinda nice to have. I still might eventually replace the throttle with Orion 2 + F15EX grips. Just, you know, I'm pretty particular about these things. It's not always a total upgrade with them. For example, Virpil CM2 grip is overall an upgrade I don't regret, but I do miss some things from the original tm warthog grip. The hats have much better feel to them on the warthog, the metal grip feels better in hand, it's slightly bigger and the trigger is also better imo. So overall I went for more inputs and more compatible grip (love the analog lever for some warbirds and helicopters), but build quality could still be better on Virpil. I'm sure if the build quality of the Orion 2 is good enough I'll be able to get over missing a dedicated speed break control. But... You know.
I don't understand why they just don't split the throttle into two virtual devices to handle all the axes. What's the problem with that? From the game perspective it doesn't matter.
If they keep this up with more is better design philosophy i think they'll have to! Only trouble is some games can be temperamental about quantity of controllers and it does make binding more complex
@@RedKiteRender it's true that some games don't like multiple controllers, but I don't remember any big flight/space sim that has such a problem. (Not to say there aren't any, I don't play that many sims anymore) Sims seem to be managing multiple devices just fine - and if it can handle a stick and a throttle being separate devices, it can handle a throttle being split into two or three devices as well. Doesn't make a difference to the game at this point. I mean, I've got, let me see...13 input devices, not counting two keyboards, the mouse and other peripherals like simshaker which aren't providing any inputs. In the games where they matter - they work fine. Just saying. ;) It's a fair point that it makes binding a bit more complex since you usually have to choose the device and then press the binding. With some stuff relegated to a second virtual device you will have support tickets with "my axis doesn't work" kinda problems just because people won't be clued in that you need to pick "Throttle #2" to get the axis bound. But such is life - some games also don't like devices with , say, 64 inputs. We're almost done with the first quarter of 21st century and these problems are still here like it's 1995. ____ And yes, that's a few powered USB hubs... and I just bought another one. ; )
Haha yeah i get you, on the other hand Carrier Command 2 has a fit if you try with more than 4? devices. I'd be all for a handles combined and base solo split of devices. I think i need an ultra wide monitor just to display my DCS controls binding chart these days!
@@RedKiteRender CC2 really has trouble with that? Damn. I mean, it's not exactly a very detailed flight sim, I don't think? But still, for that kind of a game with a lot of crossover with flight sim audience, it would be nice but also expected to be able to use more than 4 devices at a time, especially since you already have them... That's just poor coding at this point. It's not like it was never done before! ;D I have ultrawide, but I play in VR so... Yeah, they barely fit after I squeeze it all in by resizing the columns. On that, maybe one day DCS will add some quality of life features like... I don't know... width of those columns persisting through game reboots. ;)
@@RedKiteRender and just by the way, since I got your attention for a hot minute - thanks for all the hard work and time you've sacrificed for our little community. It's greatly appreciated.
Ah I see! I really do love your videos man they are great so please don't get me wrong! I see so much infesation of incorrect english by youtubers that aren't american pandering to the yanks, it just pees me off! Let them work out what it should be! Do keep them coming mate you are awesome!
I had a question i want the buttons of the f-15ex and the speed brake of the f-15e but i dont want to buy both is there any way to make that 5 way hat on the f-15ex where the speed brake should be is there any way to make that into a speed brake button. so like if i push it forward it will keep that input untill i push that air brake retract input but keep the use of the other 3 inputs in that 5 way hat, is there anyway to do that or no @RedKiteRender
Great review! I'm still a bit disappointed they didn't include built-in bindable finger lifts seeing how it's a unique and essential function in the F-15 startup procedure. But I think I'll get over that. The hard part is I want something versatile for multiple aircraft like the EX but the lack of speed brake switch is surprisingly my hangup to switching from my current F-18 grips. But I really am tempted by the extra in-line buttons for things like Track-IR recenter.
With the virtual idle / cut off buttons on the axis you can still achieve a similar effect of the lifts. Speedbrakes are one of those you don't realise it's value until it's gone items! The little inline buttons are great for 'service' controls like reset indeed.
@@RedKiteRender I really would like a throttle that models the throttle switches exactly...for realism sake.
I agree! It's certainly something that'd be nice to have on WW's next Orion base design. The detents being an external add-on, it's sadly not practical with the current generation.
@@JSRJS It's fine if you fly that exact airplane, but for the rest of us that switch machines like gloves additional buttons on 4-way hats (that might not be there in the original aircraft, but are there in another similar aircraft) and such are well appreciated. Inline and additional buttons would be as well.
It would be cool to have a detailed setup for every module, but that's basically a collection of simpits. I'm sure I'd go for it if I was a millionaire, alas... ;)
@@RedKiteRender The detent cutoffs are already used in the startup, tho. You get the APU up, then you finger lift a throttle, and then you push the idle cutoff at 26% rpm. But, yeah when I saw the inline buttons I figured those would be useful for the finger lift starter action.
Hi there, just got my new gemini base an F-15E grips an to anybody wondering the left grip now has💯 full functionality when i first plugged in no left grip at all did the quick very simply firmware update restart the software an bam all buttons an axis work as expected even the vibration on both grips works .. P.S i got the standard connecter's as i don't really use fast movers an i didn't think the gemini base would have the stop/start detent bindabul-(totally a word🤣) buttons .it dose so if your a cloud surfer an your looking at this as cheaper option get the fingerlift connecters .
Anyway completely happy with it an as stated fully💯 functional💢💢
Incredible review RedKite, truly love your work mate. Looking forward to more stock coming, I've pre-ordered one of each. Always great seeing a TH-cam notification of a new RedKite video :0). Cheers mate, hope you're doing well.
Much appreciated Nick! Doing okay, unfortunately not had the time to make much lately, but, a lot of hardware to review in the last month! so expect some new toys to look at in the near future :)
@@RedKiteRender Ooh, exciting!
They can’t manage to keep current products in stock. Why the hell would they develop something else they can’t keep in stock? Just saying.
It’s not there fault that hundreds of people try to order them on the first day
You’d be surprised how difficult such logistics are. It’s not as simple as “just ordering more”.
Nice video Redkite , Winwing are a good option although I did have issues with my F18C stick I bought from them last year. I found the attachment from stick too the base was a bit of an issue such that the pins inside the connectors broke which caused some agitation. I’m still trying to resolve the issue with Winwing. That said the Orion 2 throttles are excellent and have great versatility
Was thinking about getting one of these, but the issue where the rotary encoders have to operate as multi-stage switches is honestly a major turnoff. Is it much of an issue?
It's not a major issue unless the sim does not provide access to a CW and CCW keybind, you get less fidelity in this binding, but most times it doesn't matter.
I don't intent to buy this at all, but the switch ASMR was worth it watching till the end :)
Hi Redkite! First off, thank you for the phenomenal and in-depth review. I know how much work goes into these videos and it is greatly appreciated. I do have one question. As someone that currently uses a potato of a HOTAS and has no real experience with TM Warthog, Winwing etc...Would it be safe to assume that I would be able to comfortably bind all the A-10 controls to the F-15E throttle? I use the A-10 as an example as it appears to be the most demanding in terms of 'essential' bindings. The 'E' varient would probably be my choice given the speed brake limitation. Thank you again and have a great weekend! :)
E has enough for all the major controls. However. It does lack a 4 way hat for the radio, which will be a minor issue if you’re using Simple radio standalone (srs) or flying a campaign mission which require realistic comms, you can get by with keyboard binds for those. You could bind it to the left hand grip pinky switch also.
@@RedKiteRender Thank you for the response, that puts my mind at ease! It's been a nightmare trying to visualise what binds where without a physical reference. Much appreciated sir :)
Is this actually available to buy? I am considering it, but the webpage is an absolute mess and also says it is only available for pre-order.
Truth told it's hard to say, they're publicly available best to my knowledge. But buying high end flight sim gear tends to be a game of waiting for stock or pre-orders sadly.
@@RedKiteRender I actually figured it out, google sends you to the complete wrong page for some reason.
Do you have any idea how long winwing's restocks take? The grips are out of stock at the moment.
I'm afraid i don't know.
@@jimmydesouza4375From what I was told, WW said on fb in one comment couple of days ago that restock is coming in 1-2 weeks
Thanks for the review. As much crap as people give Thrustmaster for being "overpriced", they don't typically include controls that are hard to realistically access and don't actuate cleanly (user knows what they are trying to do, and easily knows that they successfully did it). This throttle + grip had the promise to be a universally flexible dual throttle grip competing with the CM3, but when you have controls that are a bit too difficult to use, too sloppy to use right, or hard to know you're using right it's not very useful. Space simmers especially won't like it, and mil simmers may have a use if it's at least works well enough to assign something like SRS radio channel control or push to talk.
I like my F-16EX as a right hand grip / TEDAC for AH-64D, but frankly for A-10C and F-16C usage, the TMS switch (the most common switch) is not crisp compared to the TM Warthog at all. Activating it is maybe easy enough to confirm, but coming off of the click back to center does not give the proper feedback at all making multiple presses something I need to spend extra mental cycles confirming in the sim/jet because I cannot feel it. I'm glad you're a reviewer who points this out. As it stands, TM has a better F-16 throttle than Winwing because it didn't add functionality to the grip that players find really difficult to use.
I like that thoigh, if Inwant to look down with the radar I wouldn't want it popping back up on me.
I think you've misunderstood how the radar elev works in various aircraft. An absolute radar axis, (eg F-16c) you set the control down 20% it'll stop the elevation at 20% down.
A relative radar axis (such as the F-15e/F/A-18c) you move the control down 20%, it will continuously angle downwards at 20% speed until it hits it's limit, fully down.
So with the F-15e and this controller, you have to manually lower the axis, then return it to neutral to stop the elevation continuing downwards beyond what you wanted.
I have the EX grip and Orion 2 and honestly kinda wish I got the Virpil CM3 or the Stecs. I've had a few issues with the buttons, I've had lots of issues recently where it just disconnects from my pc while im playing dcs, the lock to hold the 2 throttles together took over a week to wear in to the point it was usable with one hand, I prefer the customization I can do in the virpil and vkb software (I have virpil rudder pedals and a vkb joystick), and the Orion 2 base is kinda awkwardly laid out imo. I have never tried the CM3 but if someone has one and they want to trade..........
I didn't think I'd like the motors but honestly, they provide information I otherwise wouldn't have, like when a weapon comes off the rail in some aircraft, or in the huey it tells you the moment you enter transitional lift. Kinda useful, not necessary, but nice.
Also at 2:54, to hear you say "roll on over to the right" and see the jet roll left upset my brain lol
I'd likely get the CM3 too, but here in Canada, Winwing has a warehouse, so shipping is free, taxes and duties are also included, which makes it literally HALF what Virpil is charging. So technically I could buy two Winwing throttles and keep one as a spare😁 . Virpil is completely out of touch with their prices unfortunately...and they're never in stock.
I'm a bit confused by the part about the gray pinky radar wheel and the limitation of how many total axes can be set up in the config software. Am I correct that if I were to use that axis, I could not use the 2 levers on the right side of the throttle base as axes, or does it just happen that your setup uses those in a button configuration?
Edit - looked again. I see that it takes up a rotary encoder slot / channel. OK I can live with that. Love my old HOTAS Orion F-18 stuff (especially speedbrake) but could really use those EX buttons for A-10, F-15, F-16.
The two axis levers work fine, it's the extra modes, such as the rotary encoder knobs for HDG, CRS, LTS and HMD that cannot be enabled, nor any extra virtual axis modes.
OK excellent! Now I suddenly understand why you can only pick one to be an axis. I just settle for the rather poor "make it push a button when I turn it" method, even though the way I have it set up is horrible for HDG/CRS. Gotta have my sweet sweet mixture and prop levers though!
So i've got the Orion 1 and really like the physical detents of it. However I really like the EX grips. I know that currently the left grip does not fully work with the Orion 1 and you lose some functionality there. Is this something they plan to fix at some point... or are us Orion 1 guys just left behind?
Sadly it's a physical cable limit, the design simply can't communicate the extra switches, in fact, they had to sacrifice the firmware and hardware version reporting telemetry on the LHG / Orion 1 too!
Damn, guess i'll have to look into the Orion 2 then. I'm a bit confused how the virtual detents are supposed to work
fully works now with firmware update i just got my new gemini an f15e grips full function even the vibration both grips @@RedKiteRender
Question. I own the Orion 2 with the F16 throttle (that has the side rail as well due to the F16 side throttle method). I don't want to buy another throttle base. You think it would be a simple 5 minute swap from the F16 winwing thottle handle to the F15e? I do fly both planes so I plan on swapping some times
Looking at my Orion 1 with Viper throttle, I'd say it'll be a lot slower, removing the handle, fitting the detent kit + handle together and maybe having to remove the side rail (you might get away without removing it) it'll be a bit of a hassle to do. Should be possible within 8-10 mins at a guess.
I'm not sure what the dimensions are for the Orion 2 side rail kit, so i couldn't say if the rail has to go. Personally i leave my Viper throttle mounted permanently on it's Orion 1 base as i don't fancy the trouble.
@@RedKiteRender Good info. I'll definately let you know what I found out. I only own 1 Orion 2 throttle base. I also plan on buying the f-18 throttle handle when I get the f-15e one. Hope I can swap between all three relatively easy
Do the throttle flap switches to enable engine just like in the real F-15e (are they mapped as buttons?) or are they simply used to physically lock throttle in off/on modes
There are two virtual buttons, One activates when you enter the Cut off position and another when you leave it, If you bind it up as engine start / stop it'll match up with what you're doing in the cockpit.
The lift paddles themselves are not buttons, just locking the handle movement. You can also configure the percentage at which the physical afterburner detent sits.
@@RedKiteRender Thanks! I just watched another vid explaining the throttle switches and its exactly how you describe. Good to know
I really don’t see the point in vibrating a throttle 🫤. Just unnecessary complications added to a already complicated stick. I will stick to my Warthog. Thanks for sharing 🙃🙃👍🏻👍🏻
Are you only doing sponsored reviews now?
I'm not paid to review these, just the hardware is 'free' all said, about 20 hours of work, and a couple weeks of using them rather than my normal setup.I simply can't afford to buy sim hardware myself often. So, most reviews are going to be what manufacturers offer to me instead.
Edit: I realise this may be in relation to other channel content instead? At the moment I've been sadly tight on personal time. You'll be happy to hear Raven One DF 04 is being recorded tomorrow, but tutorials are on hold as i lack the time, naturally a hardware review has to take precedence, which put my F-15e tutorials on hold.
As stands I've another hardware review in the works, after that, i hope to get tutorials rolling weekly, time permitting.
I don’t know what you’re talking about regarding the “lack of a dedicated air brake switch” - ITS RIGHT THERE AT THE TOP! @05:16. It’s exactly the same as all the other air brake switches - it’s the circular fwd/centre/back momentary light grey switch. Are you crazy or was it a brain fart day?
That's the radio key my friend, it's also momentary on both sides, so you've got to hold it, just the same as a hat switch. An air brake switch is typically momentary on the aft side, toggle on the front, allowing you to close and not have to hold it. This should have been converted to an air brake on the EX handle. In fact the air brake on the E grip (side, grey coolie hat style switch) is toggle on both sides!
Nice review! A buddy of mine just informed me there is another choice you have for the airbrake in DCS which lets you push it once, letting the button go but the airbrake still goes all the way in again even though you don´t hold it down anymore. That is a good enough work around for me. Best regards.
this is great but only if Winwing would sell the damn thing!! Its been on the website store for over a month that says either out of stock or available for pre ordering its in the website but not available at all. Also WINWING get a dam Z-axis please. I cannot fly my Apache because I have no way to control the tail rotor! Its been Months that its been out of stock. And before everyone screams "get pedals" i have a leg disability that wont allow me to use them! Winwing sucks at having product which is why im switching to Virpil because that have Z axis on stick and always has product available!!
Love these! I had the F18 with the Orion2 base and had to get the F15EX and damn... it's a game changer when flying the A10CII or the KA-50. The extra buttons really come into play for those modules. Love the whole Winwing ecosystem.
any info about editing the vibration modes for any given dcs module? Like vibrate when using apache cannon, or during a stall in f4 phantom. Cant find any tutorials or docs on this...
Not in the market for this throttle (at the moment) but had to click the review when I saw it was you. Very interesting and a great review as always, well done and thanks!
great video man, Was wondering if you've had any plans to maybe do a video on what binds you use for what with the Orion 2 stuff. Ofc not for every air craft but just as a general idea as to what is good to use for certain stuff. Thanks in advance :)
WW should take some lessons from VKB, whos soft neglects windows limitations.
I still think the warthog with a warBRD base is still king
It is a very strong combo, i run WarBRD base with TM Warthog stick, then swap out the throttle to match my aircraft.
@@RedKiteRender I want to get a new throttle but idk I just find the warthog to do the job for everything I fly. I think I would dislike going between all the different switchology
Same stick setup here and also looking for a new throttle. The main issue I have with the TM Warthog throttle is the fact that not alle switch-positions cause a DX signal and the resulting need to use TARGET (or a similar app).
hi there , where find a good profile shaking please ?
i dont find it .
The F/A-18 handles seem more ergonomical to me, and better in line with my main aircraft (Tomcat) with the 2 4-way hats on the side for wing sweep and radio, a proper speed brake switch, and the 2 button PAL and uncage buttons plus the external light pinky switch.
That's the trouble with replica designs! Pity there's not a Tomcat handle around.
So you totally lose function of certain knobs on the base with the EX grip, or is this merely the Windows 32 button limit and does not apply to games that can handle more buttons?
i just got my gemini base with firmware update everything works even the vibrations on both
(update: multiple real WSOs have confirmed the real thing IS actually self-centering, so WW did it wrong.)
Wondering what's the source of the pinky radar elevation wheel on the real one being self-centered/spring loaded like the one on the F-18? The way the wheel is described in the "POH"s of both 15E(1993) and A~D looks like it's not the 18 style but the 16 style to me. And there is a video showing the real grips of 15A/C on bilibili confirming it. Can any Eagle driver/maintainer shed some light on this topic?
Notso has expressed concern that the elev wheel of the Winwing grip might not be spring-loaded in early July on discord. In other words, it should be spring-loaded, as opposed to the vid from bilibili. No clue which is right or wrong, would love to learn more about this as well!
sorry maybe I didn't make it clear at the first sentence. The real one might be just non-spring-loaded as well, the same as WW's.@@LymarkW
I'm mirroring memory of Notso talking about it, and ref to the way it functions inside dcs as relative. It would be very odd to function that way and not spring return given the awkward pinky placement. Much easier to just roll your palm over the edge and have it auto return, not needing to grip.
It's possible variants have have had both styles over the years too, which would be interesting to hear. Books often don't reflect the realities of an aircraft, as an example the springs 'might' fail often, so you pull them in later versions.
I'd love to hear if others have detailed info on its history!
@@RedKiteRenderYeah later I saw multiple real WSOs confirming that the real thing IS actually self-centering, and it's like you said, WW did it wrong. Not sure whether it's bcz they've modeled it based on an old A~D eagle or something... but anyway, thx for the info!
Love ASMR button pressing at the end. 😅 (Rest of the vid was great, too!)
I currently still have a TWCS throttle that I paid $88 CAD ($58 USD) new, and works fine. I fly mostly helicopters, but also the F18, F16, Harrier, and A10. I have no interest in buying the F15 or F14 atm. Knowing this, would I still be best getting the F15E throttle just for compatibility with all planes? Would you still suggest the F15E over the EX? The EX will cost me about $33 more right now ($364 vs $331 CAD).
Just picked up the 15EX throttle and 16EX stick combo with the finger lifts. Pretty awesome for its price point. My only gripe is the stupid afterburner detent, mine is SUUUUPER slick so I can't even feel the afterburner detent. I took some sandpaper to it to rough it up a bit and give it more resistance, but they really need to re-think their fingerlift and detent design. Its such a shame. They should offer a free upgrade to it, with as poorly designed as it is IMO.
Greetings and thanks for the video. You've mentioned some community sites where one can download a binding profile. I was trying to find any yet perhaps being completely new to the scene I wasn't able to find any. I'm on MSFS and have just started taking lessons :) with a hope to one day switch from Cessna to F16.
Bit disappointed to hear the antenna elevation wheel on the side isn't a return-to-center type, I don't think any other reviewers have brought that up. The pinkie hat thing is unusual, seems like winwing can't decide on when it's appropriate to diverge from the real thing or not- The F-16 grip has that 5 way hat above the manual range knob that makes it difficult to use the knob, but now they won't diverge from the real button design to make it more usable.
Either way, looks neat, but I think I'm sticking with my F-16 grip for now.
Thank you for the review! Can't wait till mine gets shipped.....it'll be a nice upgrade from my 15yr old saitek cessna throttle quadrant lol
Proportional respons of vibration to spread brake extend is a cool feature
Great review, I was wondering if you would be doing a review on the Orion2 MFSSB Version Base and stick for the F-16?
Life circumstances meant i had to decline the original window to receive and review it last year.
I'll be getting in touch with WW about the FSB base, once I've got some time to review it. Got other cool things in the works right at the moment!
Beautiful throttle. Any plans to continue your tutorial series on the Mirage F1? Your videos on the C variant are second to none and the F1EE certainly has some quirks to work out. 😅
At the moment i've no plans, my time is too limited rather unfortunately I've not been able to keep up, this review should have been done about 1 week earlier had things gone to schedule!
I'm reluctant to order the EX solely due to the speed brake switch. I'm curious how hard is it to 'swap out' these switches. I'll totally pay a premium If someone manages to create such a modification kit.
I've held back on buying the Virpil CM3 throttle for the same reason. I've been so close to pulling the trigger, but that air-brake switch.
If you've a little technical ability you could wire in an air-brake switch yourself, but i think you'd need to replace the entire grip side panel to do so (it unscrews and comes off) Which means a 3d printing and digital design work to replace it, no small feat all said and done.
I'm not convinced I want to give up Warthog's speed break, especially that I need a 5-way hat for radio. But it looks nice...
The Warthog speed break switch is two buttons only, not a hat... unless they've changed it. I went from a TM Warthog throttle to Orion2 with Hornet grips and the build quality for the same price is astonishing. Being metal is huge.
No regrets in not buying another Warthog to replace mine when it died. Still waiting on my EX grip to actually ship....
@@Whiskey11Gaming it's a (1)-0-1 switch, as in, one side is latching and another is non-latching. Which is kinda nice to have.
I still might eventually replace the throttle with Orion 2 + F15EX grips. Just, you know, I'm pretty particular about these things. It's not always a total upgrade with them.
For example, Virpil CM2 grip is overall an upgrade I don't regret, but I do miss some things from the original tm warthog grip. The hats have much better feel to them on the warthog, the metal grip feels better in hand, it's slightly bigger and the trigger is also better imo.
So overall I went for more inputs and more compatible grip (love the analog lever for some warbirds and helicopters), but build quality could still be better on Virpil.
I'm sure if the build quality of the Orion 2 is good enough I'll be able to get over missing a dedicated speed break control. But... You know.
Good luck getting one. Had throttle grip on backorder for over a month with no news on when it's going to be in stock
Sadly it's the case with all high end flight sim hardware these days.
@@RedKiteRender Too bad they don't mass produce these things. Its a given there's a huge buyers market.
Can you disable the vibration motors ?
Yes, you can disable them if you wish.
@@RedKiteRender thanks very much
I don't understand why they just don't split the throttle into two virtual devices to handle all the axes. What's the problem with that? From the game perspective it doesn't matter.
If they keep this up with more is better design philosophy i think they'll have to! Only trouble is some games can be temperamental about quantity of controllers and it does make binding more complex
@@RedKiteRender it's true that some games don't like multiple controllers, but I don't remember any big flight/space sim that has such a problem. (Not to say there aren't any, I don't play that many sims anymore)
Sims seem to be managing multiple devices just fine - and if it can handle a stick and a throttle being separate devices, it can handle a throttle being split into two or three devices as well. Doesn't make a difference to the game at this point.
I mean, I've got, let me see...13 input devices, not counting two keyboards, the mouse and other peripherals like simshaker which aren't providing any inputs. In the games where they matter - they work fine.
Just saying. ;)
It's a fair point that it makes binding a bit more complex since you usually have to choose the device and then press the binding. With some stuff relegated to a second virtual device you will have support tickets with "my axis doesn't work" kinda problems just because people won't be clued in that you need to pick "Throttle #2" to get the axis bound.
But such is life - some games also don't like devices with , say, 64 inputs. We're almost done with the first quarter of 21st century and these problems are still here like it's 1995.
____
And yes, that's a few powered USB hubs... and I just bought another one. ; )
Haha yeah i get you, on the other hand Carrier Command 2 has a fit if you try with more than 4? devices. I'd be all for a handles combined and base solo split of devices. I think i need an ultra wide monitor just to display my DCS controls binding chart these days!
@@RedKiteRender CC2 really has trouble with that? Damn. I mean, it's not exactly a very detailed flight sim, I don't think? But still, for that kind of a game with a lot of crossover with flight sim audience, it would be nice but also expected to be able to use more than 4 devices at a time, especially since you already have them... That's just poor coding at this point. It's not like it was never done before! ;D
I have ultrawide, but I play in VR so... Yeah, they barely fit after I squeeze it all in by resizing the columns. On that, maybe one day DCS will add some quality of life features like... I don't know... width of those columns persisting through game reboots. ;)
@@RedKiteRender and just by the way, since I got your attention for a hot minute - thanks for all the hard work and time you've sacrificed for our little community. It's greatly appreciated.
R zed we aren't yanks
Spending too much time around my partner, (She learned English from the yanks!)
Ah I see! I really do love your videos man they are great so please don't get me wrong! I see so much infesation of incorrect english by youtubers that aren't american pandering to the yanks, it just pees me off! Let them work out what it should be! Do keep them coming mate you are awesome!
Oh i give her friendly jabs about the language too :D Thanks!
I had a question i want the buttons of the f-15ex and the speed brake of the f-15e but i dont want to buy both is there any way to make that 5 way hat on the f-15ex where the speed brake should be is there any way to make that into a speed brake button. so like if i push it forward it will keep that input untill i push that air brake retract input but keep the use of the other 3 inputs in that 5 way hat, is there anyway to do that or no @RedKiteRender
When you compare the packaging of the units to their price tag, it's indecent.