Block Detection on rolling stock at Chadwick Model Railway | 9.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ต.ค. 2024
- How to modify rolling stock to for Block Detection at Chadwick Model Railway.
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Block Detection Links
10K Resistors (surface mount) goo.gl/7n73nt
Conductive Paint goo.gl/x8po8J
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Hi Charlie, another great video. I have been using block detection for about 30 years now and I use 47K resistors as they draw less current when using longer trains. I believe that there is a mob in the US called RIX, that make resistored wheel sets.
Cheers,
Bill.
Thanks Bill, I believe that DCC Concepts. also make resistor wheel sets. However, I use 10k resistors, so if you use 47k ones, how are you drawing less current?Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie,
Just basic ohms law. That is the less resistance the more current in the circuit. For example if you put two wagons in parallel then your 10K becomes 5K and another two becomes 2.5K your current has risen considerably (4 times actually). See what I mean. That said I run fairly long trains with resistors on everything. That is
Two resistors on bogie wagons and generally on the inner wheels (so that they don’t foul the coupler boxes. What could possibly go wrong!
Cheers,
Bill.
Thanks Bill, clearly I had a “senior moment”! Regards Charlie
Like a true Brit, pointing with his umbrella !
Class and style!
This video helped me more than any other as I now understand blocks, thanks Charlie
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Alan, regards Charlie.
Hi Charlie - 12 months on and I’ve just converted my first couple of coaches using your “resistors on the axle” method (I’m not the fastest) - all working as expected.
Great idea - thanks - now for the next 40 coaches!
Well done Ken. I’m still doing my freight stock. Either 4 or 8 at a time.
Regards Charlie
I've seen similar things before, built into the track for Signals, so the train had a piece of metal which changed the signal, the method you described is a great way of train in section, and on the computer screen is also a visual to add the trucks , a nice video indeed..
Hi Ray,
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it.
Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie, I’m working my way through this excellent series of videos and have a suggestion for you regarding the fixing of the resistor. The resistor is an SMD type and the best way to mount them on a circuit board is to use solder paste and then heat it up. There are a number of videos and ‘Instructables’ if you Google “solder paste smd’.
Keep up the excellent work, your videos are quite addictive!
Cheers,
George
I’m so pleased that you enjoy the videos George.
I’ll have a look into solder paste smd.
Good luck with your layout.
Regards Charlie
Just stumbled across this channel. Very informative. Great work keep the vids coming.
stolpinski1 So pleased you enjoyed them. Regards Charlie
Well done again Charlie with this video. Tho I'll defiantly need new glasses to see them minute resistors. Hmm, a tube of that paint might be worth having around in the paintbox for various projects, even at £12ish for 10mls.
Yes handling those resistors was a challenge John.
Excellent explanation, thanks for your video!
I’m so glad that you enjoyed it Mark. Regards Charlie
On your computer where you control what blocks each train is going into ect, can use use that software to also manage signals so once a train has entered a block the signal goes red and once it goes into the next block it goes yellow and more
Yes, with Train Controller all of that is possible.
Chadwick Model Railway sweet that sounds like the system to use, cheers
Something more for me to do.... Thanks for great information.
You’re welcome CL.
Great demo and info Charlie. Thanks.
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Greg
Hi Charlie - many thanks for your very helpful videos and your relaxed down to earth style of presentation - as well as your honesty. Also thank for your excellent photography and hints and tips on that as well as the introduction to that amazing layout McKinley.
As a newbie to the hobby I'm at the early stages of building my first layout probably of similar size to yours although a 4 track mainline roundy with branch and some shunting area. I have entered DCC with a Z21 and am wanting to implement block detection with a modicum of train automation for the main lines (2 trains on each track perhaps whilst I play at shunting etc).
It would be very helpful if you could explain your whole automated system and how you find it useful and what limitations you see as well as how you might develop it in future. Many thanks once again.
I’m so you enjoy my videos and rest assured that Train Controller is on the video list.
Interesting video indeed, a rail system running on around 12v to around 20v max should never cause any heat issues with a 10,000 ohm resistor. Mind you I have not delved into SMD ones, but a standard 1/4W 10K resistor would not get even warm on these low voltages.
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it JPM.
Hi Charlie, I use exactly the same method as you and was wondering hoe I could show it in a video. Now I don't need to as I can refer people to your excellent channel. Thanks. .............John
Canal Sidings Model Railway I'm so pleased you liked it. I'll do my very best to keep them coming. Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie
Only just seen this brilliant video on block control, not sure if you will see this question with the video 2 years old but here goes,. You showed the train stoping before it reached the 3 wagons , if the 3 wagons had been in the block the train stopped in would the train have stopped at the previous block under the town? Even though you have other track between the blocks?
Yes Mark, that’s correct. If a block is occupied the train will stop in the block prior to it. Regards Charlie
I wonder if you mixed carbon powder with the conductive paint you could do the whole job with just the paint. The carbon would add resistance.
An interesting point Gary.
excellent video
Thanks Graham.
Hiya and what a great video, thank you yet again... I watch one of your tec films and at the end, as in this case, I think, well how does 'Block Occupancy' work? Low and behold along comes a video from Charlie telling you exactly how it works and your part in the process... When I say exactly how I don't mean how the electrons flow through the 'Ring Modulating Echo Plexer' a toy from the 70's at Marconis where I trained, but it sees a current flow here because of... etc... Nice one Sir...
If I can get around to making a layout I know whom I'm going to ask to come and design it for me. I watch a few You Tube channels and while I'm quite sure they all know how, Charlie seems best at getting it through my thick head. So, again, thank you kind sir for all your hard work making your layout, filming it and then editing it. I ended up, before the heart attacks, doing power and lighting for film and TV so I know something of that process, especially how long it takes and how hard it is.
Steve, it’s comments like yours that make it worthwhile.
Regards Charlie
You're more than welcome dear sir. With any new hobby or such like it can be very hard to get into especially when it's as tec driven as this is. So to find a group of very well informed people who are as willing as you are to spend the time, effort and money to film such high quality videos as you do is a God send. I've found already that you can go the supper authentic route with not a rivet out of place, or the more art driven way with the whole picture being embraced but in both the bottom line is smooth running trains... Did that break wagon have those break pipes? Or does that scratch built engine shed match? I'm being drawn to the art side with a desire to build a picture that tells a story... Your help with your fantastic films and such knowlegable commentary plus answering question after question of newbies like myself is beyond price. So I'll end the essay here and thank you once again for all your help, thank you... @@ChadwickModelRailway
You're too kind Steve.
Thanks for posting the video. Very easy to follow and nice clear step by step. One question if I may; does every axle need a resistor on it or can just the last wagon in a consist have the resistor fitted?
Hi Tase, I would recommend that at least three
axels should be modified. This is because there is so little weight in these
smaller trucks, that conductivity cannot be guaranteed due to dirty track,
wheels etc. I know one chap who modifies every piece of rolling stock as he
buys it! Regards Charlie
Chadwick TMD cool. Thanks for the reply Charlie. Regards.
Could you glue a normal axial lead resistor to the axel and just "paint" the lead with conductive paint onto each wheel and maybe save the filing of the axel? Thinking that may be safer too as the axel wouldn't be used to conduct, only the resistor and wheels.
It does sound practical Brendan.
@@ChadwickModelRailway I am in the process of preparing stock for block detection now and find I have done just as Brendan suggests, so can confirm it does work. I used the same paint as you Charlie over the ends of the 10k resistor leads where they contacted the wheels just to "glue" the ends down. Its a lot less fiddly than those tiny resistors you use especially for old arthritic fingers!
Hi Charlie, I have been watching you for a while now and many thanks your video's are very helpful. I do have one question concerning adding the conductive paint. What is the reason for paint at both ends of the Axle connecting both wheels, does that not make a connection between the rails which is bad for DCC causing a short?
No Andrew, the paint only connects the power to the resistor allowing for the wagon to register its presence in Train Controller.
@@ChadwickModelRailway Great thanks, going to do this to my rolling stock thanks again Charlie.
Hi Charlie just 1 question do you need to do both sets of wheels or just 1 and not do the other one on the car.great video very very informative love your channel you show how to do what you show not just show off what you have and talk about what you have done. Great job!!!
Hi Jeff, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it. I just do one axel but I do it to a couple of wagons at the rear of the train, in case that I get a breakaway.
I do it to more than one wagon, in case the track is dirty and one single wagon might not get detected.
@@ChadwickModelRailway cool beans great info keep it up we as in the TH-cam world are learning a lot more from you than most others out there. I've even watched a couple of your videos about the camera great stuff ,might have to try some of that when I get a camera other than the stupid one on the cell phone.
Just great work love your stuff cant seem to get enough of it I guess.....lol
Thanks again for answering such a old video did not expect that very cool.
There's no doubt about it... It's here that I manage to reveal my masterful ignorance of many if not all things regarding propper and/or conventional train operating protocols... Would the problem of one's rolling stock not registering on the monitoring system as occupying any given block be solved if every train that one assembled and ran were to include a suitably modified and appropriately positioned guard's cabin (or caboose?) rather than having to modify ALL of one's other carriages, wagons and so on, so as to enable the system to register their true status/position?
You are dead right. The rear vehicles of my trains all have resistors or lights so that they register that the block is occupied. Regards Charlie
Charlie, if you put lights into the brake van, would this not do both the track occupancy and provide a useful function?
I hear your point about clean track, etc, but have a (slight) concern about inrush currents for the stay-alive functions, so multiple drain currents lie this might push things over the edge.
Regards, Tom
In software, there is a standard concept of debounce, so if a signal disappears for less than, say, 1 second, then it is still considered to be present. (Hardware does it with capacitance. ) Does your computer allow you to add debounce, or your occupancy detector have a speed of response that can be varied?
And, to take it back to the general question, what is the occupancy detector circuit that you are using?
Thanks, Tom
Hi Tom, I'm using Digitrax BDL168's for block detection and Railroad and Co train-controller silver, software. I have never heard of debounce but I'll certainly read up on it on my return home next week. Yes the brake van lights will certainly fulfil this function (if of course their power comes from the track) but some trains are long enough to occupy several blocks. I hope that make sense. regards Charlie
Chadwick TMD
Charlie, thanks for pointing out the obvious that the blocks may not contain a train fully; my mental model had no train longer than a block, and so I have been struggling to make the blocks long enough for the interesting train control. Moving to shorter blocks, but with extra detection wagons to keep each block occupied, just changes the game. Magic!
Hello. Good video, I planned using resistors with wires each end, soldering one end to the axle, the other to the wheel, but your paint method has given me another option.
I'm new to DCC and was just wondering why Digitrax didn't detect the short circuit before the base of the wagon melted.
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Kevin and hopefully you’ve subscribed too.
I don’t know why it didn’t detect a short but I imagine that the resistance was too high.
Hi Charlie. How the did you manage to just lift that guards van off the end of the train? What couplings are you using? Incidentally, this subject is right up my rail-road. I'm very interested in signalling, interlocking and block working. BobUK.
Hi Bob, I’m pretty sure that the guards van has Kadee couplings.
I understand that when a block is occupied it shows on the program. Will it stop a train entering and if yes how?
Yes, if it’s under computer control, the system will stop the train in the block before the occupied block. Regards Charlie.
Couldnt you add extra IR detectors to under the track instead of modifying the wagons?
No, it would take dozens of detectors. This way you only need to modify the last couple of wagons. Also, the cost of installing these resistors is tiny compared to using multiple IR detectors.
Hi Charlie.
Can you remember what wattage the resistors are (or the 4 digit code number) - the link to Amazon no longer works?
Ken
It's certainly in the video Ken. I shall sort out the link but is there a reason that you havent subscribed, it's free?
Regards Charlie.
@@ChadwickModelRailway
Hi Charlie - I subscribed some months ago - strange?
Only just come across this. Brilliant video. Does anything need to be done to the track for this to work apart from creating the blocks with isolating rail joiners. Is there any special wiring required or does the software take care of all that?
Hi Mr Bones,
As you have suspected, there is more to this. You need a block detection system such as Digitrax BDL 168.
It’s best that you contact Digitrains and speak with Jeremy. He can explain more and the costs involved. Take a look at my very first video which shows basic automation.
Regards Charlie
Thank you.
Hi Charlie, another great video. I’d like to ask you how you deal with your points if I may. I understand how you have used the BDL168 to power the individual sections and I also understand how to set the occupancy sensors up in Train Controller. I know that in TC, you can’t have points in a block so my question is, do you feed the rails of the points through the Bdl168 knowing that TC won’t see that area or do you put in a separate feed and therefore save a channel on the BDL168?
Best Regards
George
Hi George, they are fed separately. TC sees them but is oblivious to whether they are occupied.
Thanks Charlie, that’s a great help to me, keep up the good work!
Hi and brilliant again Charlie, but does this software etc work w. an entirely anaogue N-scale setup or how to approach the smartest way in my situation?
Sorry mate, this is strictly DCC only!
just a thought (I am not very knowledgable about dcc so this may be rubbish) as you add more rolling stock with resistors so the effective resistance across the track will reduce - resistors in parallel. Will a large layout then see a low resistance across the track and shut down?
Hi John,
It’s a fair question.
The resistors are very low in value and therefore draw only a very small current.
I only fit them to the last couple of wagons so that the program will no that the track is occupied should you get a breakaway.
Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie, yes it obviously does no harm as you use the system without problems! I am probably over-thinking it!! I am thinking about constructing a layout with DCC, so I am finding your videos very interesting and helpful.
Hiya, again... Yep yet more questions for you... How long do you make a block on a large layout? 1m, 1.5m? When you were showing us that a train under computer control will not go into an occupied block I was watching your monitor and when the train left the last horizontal block before the town it disappeared from the monitor for 30sec or so before appearing in the vertical block under the town, why please? Yet another one, why do the breakouts not appear as blocks but just as routing? Yes I realise it's not wired via the sensor board but why not use them? And another, is there a limit to how many blocks you can have on your silver system?
There’s no limit to the amount of blocks that I can find. No one appears to wire points/switches into blocks, it’s just too difficult with little gain.
The block length is determined by the size of the layout. My older TMD has relatively short blocks which match the train length. The new layout will have longer blocks to match longer trains.
Thank you kind sir. There is so much to learn but thankfully people and channels like you/yours are making the process a lot easier.
Can the block control information also control the signals, or is that best left to the local sensor? If it can be included that would make a good video, ie the whole system as laid out? @@ChadwickModelRailway
Yes it can Steve which I will cover further down the line.
How many cars can you do before you overload the circuit
Hi Don, the answer is hundreds as the 1k resistor draws such a small current.
Just a thought, I notice that the glue on one side and the resistor on the other side of the axle are opposite each other, does this not unbalance the axle a little? would it not be better if the two were 180 degrees from each other?
An interesting point Steve but I’ve never noticed any issues.
How well does that "electrical paint" last?
I would think that eventually the rubbing between the moving wheel and the stationary paint would cause it to eventually to disconnect?
Just seen this ... kind of think this would be more reliable long term.
It’s fine John and certainly lasts.
@@ChadwickModelRailway thanks!
If the wheel and axel turn together, it would never rub off :)
@@EsotericArctos Thanks.... Had to go watch it again ... Yeah I was not fully seeing that it appears to turn as a single unit.
And I don't really know how on the truck itself how the wheel/axel assembly is attached. Thanks
Hi Charlie. Have you done a video of installing block detection on the track? I have searched but cannot find anything other than the one where you fitted a resistor to a wagon. Many thanks. Peter
Hi Peter, no I haven’t. I will probably do one once I get to that stage on the new layout. Regards Charlie
Thanks Charlie. Will look forward to it. Cheers. Peter
@@ChadwickModelRailway Hi Charlie, I am somewhat new to all this but I have the same question - how do you install the block detection? Would love to see a video on this.
You could teach Network Rail a few lessons about running trains.
Perhaps Geoff, but would they listen?
Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie. Does the system run using a typical bus wire? How it knows where the power is being drawn from is complete witchcraft to me at the moment! I'm building a DCC layout with the hopes of upgrading it to complete automation in the future, but am having trouble figuring out how exactly the wiring for the future system should work. I'd like to have it ready to go and not have to re-wire it later on.
Cheers. Mike.
Hi Mike,
As an interim please ensure that each piece of track has its own power feed from the bus wire.
This will enable you to set up block detection at a later stage.
Regards Charlie.
I know it's been 7 months but watch Charlies videos on wiring track...
Charlie would a bachmann class37 run on 1st radius?
I very much doubt it mate.
Where did you get the back-to-back gauge? I've been changing the wheels on some Hornby-triang wagons and I have been wanting to check them. And would this work for passenger stock?
Hi Scott, I'm sorry but I cant remember exactly where I bought mine. However, in the July issue of "Hornby Magazine", page 39, is the very same gauge. They call it a Double 0 Gauge Association gauge. I do hope this helps. Regards Charlie.
Thank you for this new information I will start looking through all the magazines I have for this issue.
Scott Dryden
Scott, the big suppliers (like Liverpool or Sheffield) stock the back-to-back gauges. Be sure to select the OO size, at 14.5mm. DCG-BB145
WWW.dccconcepts.com
Can you do the same mods to n gauge axles or are there any modifications needed?
I really don’t know John. What I suggest you do as you ask this question on the train controller Facebook page. Regards Charlie
As in BR days signalmen used to ensure that the brake van (& lights at night) were at the rear of aa goods train would it not be better to fit the resistor to the last wagon (i.e brake van) and the wagon next to it if you wanted the security of 2 wagons with resistors? If in your example only the goods van became uncoupled the last block would show clear.
Hi Pat,
You have made an excellent point, one that I had clearly missed.
Regards Charlie
But you said do the last three wagons and only showed two coal wagons being moded so I thought you had done the guards off camera? @@ChadwickModelRailway
very useful video . Out of interest do you put a resistor on every wheelset ?
Hi there Sidney. No I only put the resistor on the last couple of wagons in case I get a breakaway. Therefore, TC know that that block remains occupied. Regards Charlie
Many Thanks
What happens when you try to reverse a train into a block? Will it stop as soon as the end wagon enters the target block?
Hi Tim, no it all depends on how you are programmed the block limitations. Regards, Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway Do you detail this in a video? It would be interesting to see how this works.
on your 10K resistor what wattage is the Resistor??????
That depends on your supply
hey, something i am confused about with the wiring of block detection, is it the single wire that goes to the track from the bdl 168 that supplies power to the track, or is it the dcc bus?
It’s a single wire from a BDL168 channel into each block.
@@ChadwickModelRailway but is there a dcc bus wire as well as the single wire from the bdl, or does the single wire power the tracks
I power the BDL168’s from a common bus. The bus also powers the point rails as I don’t include them in the block detection circuitry.
Great videos
Have you done a video on train controller? I just trying to make a decision on what software to use.
Hi Benny,
No I haven’t made a TC video but my very first video may give you a taste.
I use TC Silver and am very happy with it but the learning curve is steep.
Search YT for a channel called Rudysmodelrailway. Rudy is a great teacher. Of course JMRI is free software and that might suit you better.
Chadwick Model Railway
Myself and my son (7) are just starting out we are about two years into our first layout (totally taught but watching TH-cam videos like yours)
We switch between dc and dcc using the hornby elite and an old gauge master controller. We really want to take the next step and go software controlled. But hard to know what suits us.
I'm not sure on this but doesn't seem rail master has block detection, and that is something we really would like to get into.
Thanks for your reply
Just seen this video via Facebook. Love it do you have any videos of wiring laying track and other for computer control so I can use for my layout
Hi Matthew, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the video.
Yes I have made videos on wiring, track laying and an intro to computer control.
Please check out my previous videos.
Regards Charlie
Chadwick Model Railway witch ones
Sorry Matthew but it’s a case of reading the titles. Wiring DCC Bus, is a good start.
Regards Charlie
How do you wire your points in block detection charlie? should they have their own power separately or be apart of the block somehow?
Yes, I never wire them in as blocks.
Although train controller knows that they exist, it never knows if they are occupied.
@@ChadwickModelRailway Ok cool, so i just wire the point to the main bus wire and fit isolated rail joiners?
That’s it.
@@ChadwickModelRailway Yea, just tried it and works great!
Think i'm gonna fit pickups to my network rail yellow coaches as they will need lighting anyway, grab yourself some 0.2mm copper from ebay and make your own pickups m8. on the farish coaches the pickups wont be seen as theyre gonna be fitted facing inwards
It looks like you have a plan.
which type softwire using this layout
Train Controller Silver
what version of train controller do you use?
Hi HJ, TC Silver.
Hi Charlie, I've just watched this video and found it interesting and very helpful, is the traincontroller software a one off purchase? Regards, David.
Yes it is David. However, there is a rumour that due to Brexit, it’s no longer available to the UK. Check it out with DCC Automation and speak with James.
@@ChadwickModelRailway Oh no another Brexit rumour, I would be very surprised if that was the case.
I will have a look at DCC automation and contact James, I'm sure I've met him at Digitrains.
Can't you just solder a normal resistor across the wheels?
I’m afraid not. They are just too big.
Not with anything bigger than 1/8watt, but if your passenger carriage has lights theres nothing to worry about anyway, these resistors are just dummy loads, most passenger cars tend to have pickups now, and of course most DMU's do. This is the advantage of fitting extra IR block detection sensors , each sensor has its own power and naturally draws current when a train passes over it to send to the control box, also no rolling stock/trains have to be modified. basically fit IR sensors to every part that has block detection right at the ends of each piece of track as well.
Great videos as always. Thanks Charlie.
Question, as a total novice whats the best way to remove the axle? Do you just prize them out? Also does it make any sense to stick the resistor to the axle without the bother of taking off the paint then running conductive paint from resistor to the wheels?
Or am I being stupid??
Ps the 10k resistor link above does not work but they can be obtained at www.rapidonline.com/Catalogue/Search?Query=10k%20resistor&Size=60 of Colchester. (though not sure of the correct rating/power handling)
Hi Brian, yes the axles can be removed just by prizing the sides apart. I’ll have to check out the link to the resistors if my no longer works and thanks for the tip. Regards Charlie.
Great Video. Is this sutable for both DC and DCC?
It's only suitable for DCC I'm afraid. Regards Charlie
On #9 Block Detection on rolling stock 1. You did not give the Wattage on the 10K Resistor # 2. At Https://goo.gl/7n73nt in USA you get a Error Message We're The Web address you entered is not a our page, Thank you Just letting you know as I see it from USA. As UK.and USA Amazon may be Different references Numbers for same Resistor value.
Thanks Marcel.