In theory yes but lore wise it was said the the traveler is the gardener, the witness was the knife and the winnowner is the veil but why was the witness the knife and who is the true bigger threat would that mean who ever is the winnowner could possibly be a way bigger threat then we think and when?
Hopefully nothing replaces the witness. You can tell a continuing story without needing a figurehead antagonist on the level of the witness. I’d much prefer they focus their story on drama between our existing characters than try to force another big bad evil entity. What’s a victory worth if it is immediately undermined?
I dont think what you said makes sense lore wise no other antagonist is as big as the witness and in sol there will be almost always be someone trying to rule it. Same thing in real life it wouldnt make sense to have none of these power hungry species not try and take over and everyone needs a leader thats why armys have generals and countrys have presidents or rulers just because a president dies or dictator dies does that mean its forced to have another one?
@@GKelpy The point of beating the witness is the guardians become the ruling force in the Sol system. It is not uncommon in war for a movement to fall apart after their figurehead is killed or defeated. Sure, it doesn't all come to a complete stop, but what's left becomes fractured and disorganised until they just kinda give up. This is how wars end. No one wants to fight just to keep losing. And on a more important note... It's just boring to keep making up bigger badder things to kill. It creates a never ending treadmill of problems that halt the sense of narrative progression. As long as destiny has been around, guardians have been fighting back the darkness to take back the Sol system. It would be nice if that actually happened. Otherwise what's the point in having a story if it never moves forward?
I agree with this. The thing to remember is that we didn’t even know of The Witness until Witch Queen. Of course there was “The Darkness”, but until Witch Queen we’ve basically had a continuous series of smaller figurehead antagonists rather than one big bad. Granted two of those were Savathun and Oryx, two of the most powerful beings in the universe, but the rest have basically been a series of fairly mundane, mortal enemies. There’s no reason we can’t go back to that. If the universe is always in existential peril, it’s never in existential peril.
Not gonna lie I’d love if Kelgorath is just that guy who never gives up and does become the best no matter how hard we try tbh I’d love that there’s an enemy who refuses to stay down and then starts making good arguments against us while rallying forces
@@peterdubinsky5389 Kelgorath is beginning to get real, like him somehow being capable of FCKING WIELDING HIMSELF, him now being a taken but still maybe retaining his "self".
now we have 3 stuck ships in Sol, the Dreadnaught, the Leviathan, and the...whatever Calus's ship parked ON Neomuna is called, meanwhile Failsafe is like "at least you guys haven't been stuck since the collapse"
I remember making a similar observation a few years back haha. Think it was just before the time Rasputin shot down The Almighty which was also just kinda hanging out there before they sent it plummeting towards Earth lol. Had the distinct impression that we were starting to accumulate random ships just littering the system.
It would be nice to fight against "evil Guardians", those who have been corrupted by the Darkness. They exist in the lore, but we never met one in the game
It seems like it would be pretty hard to code that. It would be like an AI crucible, right? Unless the enemy guardians transform into big bosses for final fights.
@@ClaireNighten Savathun and the Hive lightbearers are a good example of how it could be done. The difference is that they would be human/exo/awoken and perhaps be able to use any subclass and perhaps some exotics. It would be kind of similar to AI Crucible, but with changes. I don't know how to code, but I guess it's possible, since they did something similar with the Lucent Hive.
The Vex make the most immediate ssense. We still haven't dealt with a Vex combat unit, iirc - all have been custodian units. There's so much meat left on that temporal bone
Who are the vex? Aren’t they those metal guys who are randomly thrown into season and dlc with little to no story reason? The same guys with a really distinct art style for their architecture, terraformed entire worlds, who now are more synthwave tron people? Ah sorry the vex have always been my favorite faction but it’s so depressing to see them just kinda exist to throw some variation into a season and have never had a true focus placed on them. My worst fear is that will happen after Final Shape which personally I’m not going to be playing
The vex suddenly becoming the main villains is laughable. They of all races should have a major role in the LvD saga due to the Sol divisions lore on the Gardner and widower plus they were the last enemies we fought at the end of D1's campaign. Making them just randomly appear to fight us with no real story significance and then suddenly making them the main villains is poor writing.
@@nankaq9909if he’s one of the bosses in the raid then maybe he’ll try and take over the Monolith with pure psychic powers, and remember he commands the Nightmares too
I do hope we see more of Nezarec. I'm wondering if he'll ever get his OG body back... lol. To be honest, I was not too psyched with the design we got in Root of Nightmares. It wasn't... horrible, y'know, but there were more than a few times when I'd look at him running around our DPS plate and couldn't help but think that he legit looked like some kinda chicken or a fat dude in a red jumpsuit. His is a character that had a lot of speculation built around him over the years. Heck I remember people theorycrafting about him since vanilla D2. Over the years we had a few hints here and there, very ominous stuff, but nothing huge until close to Lightfall and we gathered some of his body parts n everything... So I figured, if he did show up, he'd be a tad more intimidating... lol.
I love the way Byf describes this power vacuum, and its potential factions that could fill it to oppose us and the Coalition. It’s like one big, galaxy-wide chess game. With the mention of rescources left unkecked, I can’t help but wonder if the Warsats will come back into play for the Coalition to use them as a type of security system to fortify Earth, Neomuna, and the Reef? Somewhere in the lore, it’s mentioned that the facility that manufactures the Warsats, still exists on Mars. Rasputin can’t be recovered, but if there is a way to build up the Warsat network again, it would prove useful for the security and defense of the Coalition. Though, it would possibly take our best engineers, Ana, Elizabeth, and others, many years to build it back from the ground up, and put it back online. One advantage to this, is that Xivu and what remains of House Salvation, would have a much lower chance of using the Warsats against us.
@@nankaq9909I don’t know if Rasputin would’ve planned that far ahead. But he did make protocols and contingency plans. Maybe he made one for us to rebuild the Warsats after his death? He can process information and make calculations in nanoseconds, so it’s not too far fetch’d to imagine he’d made blueprints and instructions left for Ana to find, in his last days alive. But yeah, considering how Banshee remembers and forgets stuff, it’d be a funny coincidence.
I love this idea. We could build a new Warmind. It wouldn't be as powerful as Rasputin but it'd definetly serve well as surveilance and early warning system at least. I propose we name it "Fellwinter" after Rasputin's son.
Toland taking over Xivu's now vacant throne world is an interesting idea. I was following him around in the Ascendant plane the other day, and he made a comment that he killed his own ghost. While Toland hasn't been overtly hostile against us, he certainly hasn't friendly and we know he really hates our rejection of the throne. Toland's title of "the Shattered" is oddly poetic with the fact he was the first to know about the Lunar Pyramid... which taught Eris how to use Stasis... The mad wizard learning to use stasis and falling to darkness is right in line with the final shape: a synthesis of Light and Dark. One might call it.. a season of Heresy?
I could see Toland learning to wield Stasis, and whatever the final, third darkness power will be. Not Strand, as it requires one to relinquish control and let ones will flow freely, without worry, and see the connectivity between themselves, and others. Toland wouldn’t subscribe to such views. So he could become a Hive God that would wield Stasis, Hive magic, and whatever the final darkness element may be. The Worm Gods would be looking to a new god they can count on to protect them, empower them, and act in their behalf. They may have begun to lose faith in Xivu, while Savathun is a heretic. The Worms could be desperate enough to reform his body and soul, and make him a Hive god that takes over Xivu’s Throneworld after we slay her, and kill off most of her forces on Torrobaital. The only question left is, what god would he be? I doubt a Hive god of war. Doesn’t seem like Toland’s style. Perhaps a Hive God of Chaos? Toland was mad, and chaos and madness often coincide.
@@garrettviewegh9028 In the lore we've seen Toland referred to as both a Void Walker, and a Sunsinger; combine that with his apparent mastery of death, and assuming he learned Stasis on Luna before his death... He'd be pretty far along on mastering many of the elements. In several lore tabs Eris is pretty angry that Toland never told anyone about the Lunar Pyramid cause he had to have known before he led them down into the pit. I've had a theory for a while based on the lore of the Deathsingers and Toland that long story short, I think the death song is used to "take" things by ripping their souls out of them. I think Toland "Took" himself as part of his obsession with knowledge. The death song lyrics in their few instances in lore all include the names of the Worm Gods, like it's a sacrificial mechanism. What greater act of 'Stasis born control' could there be than taking your own soul? He's been very upfront that he's using us for some purpose and leading us to slaughter like a lamb, but... the proverbial slaughter keeps not happening... unless we're not strong enough yet for him to outlast us and prove his superiority, in much the same way Eris took Savathun's power. I agree Stand isn't in keeping with his character, but Void+Solar+Stasis+SoulFire= Profit? Most of Toland's rants end up being annoyed that people don't understand the ontological truth about the universe that "Things of higher stability survive than their lower stability counterparts." It's the same concept as Evolution by Natural selection, and close but not the same as Sword Logic. It might seem an academic dispute, but sword logic requires killing; outlasting the other party because you're just that much better than them that you don't need to kill them is...elegant. A soul that exists because it defined itself to exist is a pretty elegant para-causal tautology to circumvent that whole pesky natural world, and right in line with what the forger of the Bad Juju would find hilarious.
I was re-playing a witch queen mission, and it reminded me of one of the two truths and two lies from Savithick. One of the options is that our destiny lies outside of Sol. That got me thinking about what comes after the light and dark saga, and I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch that something calls us to outside of Sol. This gives Bungie leeway to make all new worlds with all new powers and abilities available. New enemies, new allies, and new dilemmas. Makes sense to me, but I’m not an expert on lore 🤷🏻♂️
My problem is that once we kill the Witness who is essentially the most powerful being in the universe, nothing that Bungie sets up will seem like a threat. Bro can Thanos snap guardians into pieces, he’s the source of the Taken, and he’s the literal embodiment of an entire civilization of darkness worshipping cultists. If we can take him… any other big bad won’t seem threatening to me.
Tankis, The Machine God. In all seriousness, I kinda want the Taken to just die off. Treat them like the Flood from Halo after it fires: still present, but starving to death with no way of making more of themselves. The blight they’ve left on the universe remains, but they are leaderless and feral.
It sounds crazy but I think the drifter works for the pyramid fleet and he is playing two sides of the war or the nine are working with him who work for the witness I think he is an outright traitor without showing it
Perhaps the Vex, upon seeing their simulations fail to predict our victory, will try to bind themselves to the light, like they did with the dark, and create so thing new. Maybe not a new villain, but they might create a new faction
*insert my guardian sitting in a corner mumbling like conspiracy theorist after witnessing the horrors of the vault of glass* Its the vex i tell you. They are the true enemy
It feels like Bungie wrote themselves into a corner. The Witness is the most powerful being in the Destiny Universe, and when we kill it, wouldn’t that make us the most powerful? All story stakes after TFS mean nothing to me if we actually kill the Witness in the next expansion.
We never grow in power as guardians really thats how we can go from killing Oryx and still having trouble with people like Eramis y'know? Our power really is just prep time and exploiting weaknesses rather than just being uber powerful I mean we are powerful but we aren't like Oryx or Xivu casually shitting on planets.
My guess is that the raid will involve us shattering the Witness' component souls back into the aether. Darkness and Light are re-released into the universe instead of being concentrated in to two entities, and now we have to deal with all the smaller factions that want to take advantage of that. Use all the characters we have to build up new smaller-scale but still important threats. Crow finds out the Sol Divisive are using the energy bursts to try and create a new Black Garden. Clovis Bray's head creates a plan to use the Darkness and Radiolara to copy himself to all the Exos so we need to help Ana and Elsie to stop him. Eramis and Misraaks find a lost colony of Eliksni who had isolated themselves on Pluto worshipping a Darkness artifact that's been reactivated.
Not exactly after all it takes 6 guardians to fight a raid boss. But there are other things out there in the universe. The witness is the strongest but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t other contenders out there.
The Dragonslayers lore book mentions visions of a new Torabotl and a betrayal amongst Caiatl's forces. I could see a new group of cabal forming from this betrayal after TFS.
I hope that "defeating the Witness" doesn't mean killing it. We can stop the Final Shape from happening while detaining the Witness in some other manner. Perhaps through the power of the Traveler & the Veil we can disseminate the Witness back into a race of people rather than one entity. Then the race continues after the same aim but is far less powerful and easier to manage. I think killing the Witness outright is going to feel empty
The Winnower, he definitely exists outside of unveiling, Eris has dialogue mentioning him, and Saint 14 has a dream where he is mentioned by the gardener
@@ILUVsSUNDROP There’s some Final Shape collectors edition lore where Misrax’s daughter Eido observes a conversation that took place before the Witness was formed by a faction called the Consensus, that is separate from the Witnesses
The Winnower is a concept invented by the Witness's people that they desired & would embody the concept once they became the Witness, & Eris (in Arrivals) treats them as the same, as do others. Even if "the Winnower" is a separate Entity (an Entity at all) it doesn't make sense for it to show up when the Light & Dark saga is over
@@BrazarB Not true, nowhere is the Winnower stated to be a concept created by the pyramid race. Mara Sov, Saint 14, and Eris morn (in her hive form), all tell of the Winnower on their independent discovery in conversations not speaking about the Witness race, Mara says her father is the darkness, In Saint’s dream his mother(Gardener) says his violent nature comes from his father (the creator of the sword logic), and Eris after engaging heavily in the sword logic can hear a voice in the deep, that isn’t the Witness otherwise she would have pointed it out, so the Winnower is eluded to on his own, separate from the Witness race. As for the next saga, the Gardener might die in the Final Shape as Imaru can hear her screams, and we can hear them in Garden of Salvation’s mini clarity statue, the Witness will probably kill her, or we might? leaving the Winnower to gain supreme control over the universe
The focus will probably be on the Vex and I bet u they’re going to suddenly make some Vex that can indeed communicate in a manner we can understand. They’re the only faction that hasn’t been focused on in a proper story format, it’s just us killing them without really learning anything new about them and how they function. Plus they make the most sense being the strongest non paracausal faction that could rival the hive makes sense to focus on after a saga of light and dark has just finished
New drinking game idea: Take a shot every time that Byf says "power vacuum". 😅 Great video as always! I've been straight binging your conten to catch up for TFS. Thank you so much for all the work you all put in!
My running theory since they announced the final shape was that the true big bad of the next saga is the vex. They don’t seem to really care one way or another who wins because they’re beyond light and dark. This is what Kang is to the Thanos. Yeah the Witness is a problem, but it is in every reality and I’m sure the Vex have dealt with it before, final shape or not. The vex want everything to become the vex. Osiris said himself we haven’t even seen vex military units yet- these are all just researchers, builders and farmers at this point.
Personally, I think nothing would be more powerful than the remaining worm gods. I hope we see more of them. How crazy would it be if they actually helped us in some way against the witness in order to avenge Xita. Or once the witness is defeated they come to our system to get the hive in order and to punish Savathun. Ever since we heard them roar in the final mission of the season of the lost, I've wanted to see more.
the nine are not related to the awoken nor related to the Distributary, the Nine have their own metaphysical thought realm and are infact strings of primordial dark matter that thread throughout the solar system each being a representation of the major celestial bodies of the solar system. the Sun, Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Neptune and Uranus. strictly speaking Mara has had dealings with the Nine through Orin and Xur in regard to Skolas, the Rabid
@@MW2proification the distributary is sealed from the parent uiniverse the guardian lives in, it was only Mara who was able to bring back her loyal awoken from the distributary other awoken don't have that power, her exposure to light and dark has gifted her with amazing and powerful paracausle abilities as she is the first awoken and the one who remade all the others on her ship into awoken when they reached the distributary, and remember she created the distributary from the chaos of light and dark. and there are no awoken overlords the awoken in the distributary are led by Mara's mother
We will fight Mara Sov. You can see it being set up. Crow will die inside the Traveler and she will blame us because we weren’t “1 step behind” as Osiris promised her.
Never considered them much of a threat, but now that I think about it, any Psions of the Conclave could be a problem for us. Besides they’re psychic abilities, and ability to look into the past and future, those that aren’t loyal to Nezarec could utilize the Veil, Vex, or Pyramid technology to become a grave threat if they can predict our moves against them. Especially if some are among Caital’s ranks.
The Vex have always been a mystery to me, I love the Black Garden and always considered it to be a liminal space. Also something so eerie but satisfying are the Descendant Vex, they are so old and come from the far future, what are they doing, what have they achieved? Yes here we are understanding the Vex, definitely my most mysterious yet intriguing faction
What if we don't kill the Witness and we just make him split up and they tell us about why the final shape needed to happen. The reason the Traveler looked like it was buried when the Witness found it.
Yeah, good concept for the aftermath. However, I don't think we will kill The Witness because we can't. So far, even in Lightfall, we have only been show how ABSURDLY OP The Witness actually is: It is completely unfazed even when being shot at with primordial and pure Light directly from the Traveler (only its pyramid ships are taking damage), it can easily tap into our Ghosts and completely take control over them and what is even better, it can just move a finger and prema-kill Guardians. There hasn't been a single Showcase or clue about Witness's weakness so I am pretty firm in my observation that it is definitely unkillable. That is, of course, if Bungie doesn't come up with some re*arded bs that the Witness is suddenly damagable inside the Traveler whether by some random artifact, by mere chance or even worse, by "power of friendship". The best thing they can do in TFS is find a way to make The Witness unable to be "a factor in the overall calculus of war" like Byf said it. Only thing that comes to my mind is maybe trapping it inside the Traveler, being surrounded by that much Light will probably make a good Cage of sorts. Either way, killing it will make TFS worse than Lightfall
My guess, if bingie hasn’t retconned it, the winnower. It would be the only villlain more powerful than the witness, and could bring back the cosmic horror elements that destiny lost when they introduced the witness
They already did... The Garden Game was just an abstract story of creation. The Garden doesn't exist, it's not what we know as The Black Garden, and the winning "pattern" from past games isn't the Vex.
I don't get why people think it's a retcon ever since Unveiling dropped it was believed to be allegory, it's not like Unveiling was clearly centimated to be all true. & *if* it is an actual entity I dont think "the Winnower" would show up after this saga
Perhaps the black garden vex may attempt to re-create the black heart or something similar I imagine that the guardians of the last city might actually eventually have a Civil War once they no longer have a common threat, keeping them all together and as the numbers of the wish, dragons begins to replenish, we may actually have a potential Civil War amongst guardians especially if the remaining members of the Vanguard parish during the events of the final shape or the events following. Savathun may even attempt to persuade some of the last city guardians to join her side through a very persuasive argument. Old fashions mentioned throughout the lore may even take advantage of current events to the point we may even have a human enemy faction. New monarchy might even attempt to forcefully take the last city, with the assistance of dead orbit and future war cult remnants. Perhaps, even out of a belief that the leadership of the last city has been corrupted and had to be stopped at all costs. These renegade factions might even spread propaganda about how the Vanguard is in league with Savathun And will spread it further propaganda on how the Vanguard can no longer be trusted and possibly portray the coalition forces as just the barrel of a gun pointed at the citizens of the last city, forcing them to stay in line. Whatever the reasons, it seems highly probable, that humanity may be forced to spill its own blood in a Civil War over the fate of the last city, and who ultimately has the authority to rule it and earth. Plus, a lot of players have been begging for years for a new enemy action.
Apparently the hive are increasingly becoming uninteresting for a lot of players, and the Cabal at this point are more or less irrelevant as an enemy faction. Bungie might be forced to introduce a new enemy race faction, or even do some sort of covenant ordeal where massive amounts of the remaining darkness aligned factions merge into a single faction and work together.
We need to remember that Mara Sov’s objective is to maintain balance between light and dark. What if defeating the witness means that the light becomes the dominant force? Could she turn against us?
Or maybe the balance will be restored by itself with light fading to a fraction of it's power after Witness is defeated, and the Vex see this as a opportunity to take over sol
I'm really hoping it's not going to be a World of Warcraft situation with the Lich King's death, in the sense that "there must always be a Witness" type of deal.
What if mara sov takes control of the taken?! Didn't she experiment with it? Also, didn't she mention she was hiding something and to be wary of her. After all she could read someone's desires but can't disclose them to others because it benefits her mainly due to her feeding off of it?
I think you take for granted the idea of a unified Guardian force in the future, several Lightbearer's may have... complicated relationships with the Vanguard following the Witness's demise.
I know there are some people out there who still think The Winnower is a thing apart from The Witness, and that would be the answer but I just don't see it. I strong suspect The Witness started out life in the writers room as the Winnower, then writer turnover caused it to change over time
What happens if we don’t win? what happens if everything ultimately fails “again”? What if in the final shape we get the final shape and echoes is something completely new within this final shape
None of the vex besides wyverns are combat units due to lack of need for them. All vex units are builders true but they are perfectly suited for combat as listed in the taken lore cards from D1. No need for dedicated combat units if regular engineers can fight off any non paracasel threat. Calus's claim of vex having true warriors is a lie and the vex mentioned under quria's control when it invaded Crota's throne world canonically can't exist since we would have already seen them in season of the splicer.
By the Vex's cold calculus, if the Light defeats the Darkness, rather than continue to attempt to bind themselves to the Darkness, they will recognize the Light as ascendent, and attempt to bind itself to that instead.
Honestly if the Sol Divisive made the calculation to trust a paracausal power once whos to say they wont do it again? What if they straight up just switch to the light as the greatest unknowable power to bind themselves to? Just a thought
One interesting idea for the Vex, especially the Sol Divisive, would be if they would consider joining/following the Light. They tasted what worship can achieve, and as you say, they could choose to abandon the Witness and what it represented. And with that logic, then why not try to now join the force that defeated the Witness? The forces of the Light would have proven to be stronger, and maybe the Vex could calculate now a path where they integrate with the Light instead, ensuring their survival by stopping being our enemies? Could be an interesting path for them (and would give a nice, ironic, new meaning to the Sol Divisive, if we assume that we are part of a "Sol Coalicion" xDDD)
I could see lucent hive trading light with the worshipping vex in order to achieve a greater goal, which might lead to vex getting a bit more access to the light than it's safe for the entire universe
The Vex hate anyone who isn’t them. That’s why they terraform everything into cubes. They followed the Witness because Vex are the best contenders in a Dark world. They’ll do the same with Light. They were able to kill Saint, they might do another light draining mind.
My joke dream is that a small faction of Hive, from either Dark or Lucent, or both, decides to split off and worship the now defunct Goddess of Vengeance Eris Morn. Cause let's be real, she existed only during the blink of an eye, in Hive timescale, but DAMN the things she did in that blink xDDDDD I kinda want to see this little cult of Hive gathering close to Eris's camp on the Moon, never aggresive but always around. It would be funny, like a grim creepy fanclub xDDDDDD
I have a question about the non Sol-divisive Vex: Are they innately hostile towards humanity/ the coalition? I don't know... If they are, then not much will change after the defeat of the Whitness. If they aren't, then shouldn' t they just...leave Sol and ignore us? The universe is a vast place after all...
I think giving the Eliksni to Mithrax as the defacto leader since Eremis left the system is a bit odd. If anything I'd think if Eremis was still in the system it would further improve Mithrax's ability to assume the mantle of Kell of Kells. Eremis and Mithrax were building an understanding at the end of their last encounter espcially with Eido as the intermediary. Now that Eremis is gone that leaves only one Kell level player left for Spider to usurp. Spider has a hand in multiple houses and built many schemes up to this point to ensure his safety from other races. If there's 3 characters that the destiny universe should be scared of its Savathun, Mara Sov, and Spider. All capable of elaborate planning, playing the long game, and spinning opportunity into personal gain. Even when you think your objectives align with theirs it most likely has 2-3 more layers that they're playing at simultaneously.
Honestly, it wouldn't be much of a "power vacuum" imo, because the witness hasn't done anything. He hasn't done anything to the last city, and he hasn't taken out anyone we care about. Besides helping the traveler, which isn't really all that loyal to use anyway, there no reason to fight him except for self preservation. So unless the witness really brings the pain next season, it won't matter who takes over, because the witness never set a high bar to begin with. If hurting the traveler is all he's got, then he's no better that ghaul, or Rasputin.
"No reason to fight him except for self-preservation." ...? Are you just ignoring the part where the Final Shape will erase everything the Witness deems to not have a purpose in its designs? Here what that sounds like: " The big bad has not done anything to ME, personally. Why should I stop him from rewriting reality in its image?"
@@Catalyst375 I hear you, but not quite what I mean. When I say "he hasn't done anything," I'm referring to the witness as a character, and his reputation as a villain. Think of Negan from the walking dead. One of the greatest villains in the series, imo. But that was because of the build-up of everything he did before the final fight. The witness just doesn't come of as that big of a threat. It didn't have to be "personal," just impactful. Something to make fans WANT to see him get beaten. And yes, "self-preservation." Preservation for themselves, their friends, families, homes, and way of life. Rather than just submitting to what the witness wants. The same goes for the awoken, cabal, and eliksni. Zavala, and many others have lost faith, and stopped relying solely on the traveler. Especially since many of them lost people they care about, and it did nothing in response. So why would anyone fight for it now?
If a subdivision of Vex can have faith in the Witness what is preventing the Sol Divisive or another bracket to point their reverence at a user of the Light? What's stopping a Guardian from replacing the Witness after it's death in the eyes of the Sol Divisive?
Hey Byf I wanted to get your thoughts on something. Is Xivu locked out of the entire ascendant plane or just her throne world? Could she go to someone else’s throne or could she even create a new throne world? There may have been some lore that discussed this that I missed but either way I’m curious
I remember you mentioning a while ago go a conversation between the Witness and an unknown disciple. The disciple was unsure of what the final shape was and they discussed how each (known) disciple went about assisting in the Witness’s plans. I think they might end up making an appearance.
Eramis. We still have a score to settle with her seeing as how we pretty much ruined her plans. Despite feeling used by the Witness, there's no denying that the beef still hasn't been squashed. Nezarec since we didn't really kill him in the raid, because no one ever really stays dead in Destiny. Even though Calus is confirmed dead (until next expansion probably), we still have to deal with his Shadow Legion and whoever is leading it now with him gone. Riven is alive somehow, and we'll at some point have a newly hatched Ahamkara, along with several of Riven's children. Ahamkara are potentially dangerous, so there's gonna be a second hunt. Truth be told, Destiny will never truly end as long as Bungie milks this franchise dry. Considering the many Eververse purchases EVERYONE has dropped, no way this franchise is gonna end soon. Hell, we're close to passing the 10 year mark on this series, and there's only been two games to its name.
About Eramis, she was planning to return to Riis. As I remember, there was a scannable on Titan that was catching signals from Riis, but it only picked up silence. My girl gonna be disapointed. Also, I can't help but wonder how would the Nine react to new Ahamkara in existence?
I know I’m being insane but maybe it could be Maya We did learn she copied her mind and tried copying the witness in a way, instead of fussing a large group of people into one she turned one person into many. Maybe shes still around like some people theorized
Well... if there's a Power vacuum after the death of the witness, presuming that there will be any guardians left playing the game, there is only one that can fill that role, and that's Dyson's.
i think there will be a other Kell for the Eliksni, maybe for the House of Salvation but as allies. it would be nice but i don't think Bungie is going to do more stuff with the Eliksni
Don't forget, Drifter has exerted a limited amount of control over the Taken as well, not particularly well as shown in how that cutscene played out, but he will only get better.
Can you do a video of what happens if he's defeated Mara with or without taken end up backstabbing us and what that means and the possibility of if it's possible with wish magic to make a ghost invincible (crow)
I was late on watching this but I really enjoyed it I wonder if Yrix &/or the rogue psions will take over the Shadow Legion, it would also make it easier for Bungie to get more use out of those LF cabal models Also, is it officially confirmed by Bungie that Echoes is a vex episode? That image could be a psion
The witness will continue to exist because, despite his efforts he cannot create the final shape. It’s because he can only wield the darkness. The power of the light cannot be taken, it has to be given. So the Witness cannot twist the pale heart of the traveller into its vision. Only Guardians can, and only one guardian will… Crow. It’s why he was resurrected. His path is leading to the pale heart, and mastery of the light and darkness. He will become the final shape, and the witness will be robbed of its power.
Who's to say the Guardians won't turn on each other now that a threat to the universe is out of the picture now? the potential of a very obvious thing they can do "New species/enemy" this is a huge universe. Vex constantly being a threat of coarse why not try to "mix" something in with them whether that be a guardian helping them in some way or further advancing their tech. Last but not least if the question still remains what can you do without the witness/Darkness being in the universe = We have an entire game dedicated to not talking/including the Darkness - "Destiny 1". (Yes ik the speaker constantly talked about it but did it ever mean anything) ;/
I think another major force that could fill the power vacuum left behind by the Witness would be the reemergence of the Ahamkara, especially if Riven's children take more after Riven than Taranis in sowing chaos throughout the system, the kind of paracausal chaos that the Witness was specifically looking to outlaw in its Final Shape for the universe. If you kill the thing that represents Order and Finality, all that's left is unfettered Chaos and struggle. If there is to be a Second Great Hunt, it will likely play out different from the first with its own unique challenges affecting everyone in the system.
Why are you assuming we will defeat the Witness? Could we possibly lose and the Witness reshapes (final shape) the universe we inhabit? Could it be possible the Traveler is actually the "bad" guy? Time will tell.
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![แฉกลโกงงานวัด 2024 [ โกงมั้ยครับ ep.106 ] | DOM](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/taC5dpP3HXA/mqdefault.jpg)
I think Taniks will take over the power vacuum
Not the Stalin lovers 😢
Who?
I both love and hate that this is a very real possibility
Riding one of the worm gods?
We’ve killed him so many times over destiny 1 - destiny 2 and I swear the traveler slipped him a ghost while we weren’t looking.
Randall the Vandal is gonna make a comeback for sure!
In theory yes but lore wise it was said the the traveler is the gardener, the witness was the knife and the winnowner is the veil but why was the witness the knife and who is the true bigger threat would that mean who ever is the winnowner could possibly be a way bigger threat then we think and when?
@@btkdarkness3756well, you see, Randal is just The Winnower in disguise. It’s why he always comes back
Hopefully nothing replaces the witness. You can tell a continuing story without needing a figurehead antagonist on the level of the witness. I’d much prefer they focus their story on drama between our existing characters than try to force another big bad evil entity. What’s a victory worth if it is immediately undermined?
I want a civil war in the city that'd be so cool
I completely agree. The Yet Bigger Death Star has proven not to be effective, just frustrating at best
I dont think what you said makes sense lore wise no other antagonist is as big as the witness and in sol there will be almost always be someone trying to rule it. Same thing in real life it wouldnt make sense to have none of these power hungry species not try and take over and everyone needs a leader thats why armys have generals and countrys have presidents or rulers just because a president dies or dictator dies does that mean its forced to have another one?
@@GKelpy The point of beating the witness is the guardians become the ruling force in the Sol system. It is not uncommon in war for a movement to fall apart after their figurehead is killed or defeated. Sure, it doesn't all come to a complete stop, but what's left becomes fractured and disorganised until they just kinda give up. This is how wars end. No one wants to fight just to keep losing.
And on a more important note... It's just boring to keep making up bigger badder things to kill. It creates a never ending treadmill of problems that halt the sense of narrative progression. As long as destiny has been around, guardians have been fighting back the darkness to take back the Sol system. It would be nice if that actually happened. Otherwise what's the point in having a story if it never moves forward?
I agree with this. The thing to remember is that we didn’t even know of The Witness until Witch Queen. Of course there was “The Darkness”, but until Witch Queen we’ve basically had a continuous series of smaller figurehead antagonists rather than one big bad. Granted two of those were Savathun and Oryx, two of the most powerful beings in the universe, but the rest have basically been a series of fairly mundane, mortal enemies. There’s no reason we can’t go back to that.
If the universe is always in existential peril, it’s never in existential peril.
The non-zero chance that Kelgorath rises to power scares me on a narrative level
Kelgorath bros about to feast
@@xadiret8452it would be funny if Kelgorath surpasses Xivu
Not gonna lie I’d love if Kelgorath is just that guy who never gives up and does become the best no matter how hard we try tbh I’d love that there’s an enemy who refuses to stay down and then starts making good arguments against us while rallying forces
@@peterdubinsky5389 Kelgorath is beginning to get real, like him somehow being capable of FCKING WIELDING HIMSELF, him now being a taken but still maybe retaining his "self".
We need Taniks and Kelgorath to go to War. They would never truly die.
After we kill The Witness their master “The Fitness,” will show up. We now have to fight stupid sexy Fitness who is voiced by Markiplier.
Ah so that's what Black Hot has been doing.
Bhulk, The First Disciple
Not gonna lie, that be pretty sweet 😂
The Witness but Dummy Thicc.
They could rule the universe.
The swolness
now we have 3 stuck ships in Sol, the Dreadnaught, the Leviathan, and the...whatever Calus's ship parked ON Neomuna is called, meanwhile Failsafe is like "at least you guys haven't been stuck since the collapse"
Mannnnn, I wanted her to be my ghost. Imagine having a borderlands character as your buddy.
The Typhon Imperator
I remember making a similar observation a few years back haha. Think it was just before the time Rasputin shot down The Almighty which was also just kinda hanging out there before they sent it plummeting towards Earth lol. Had the distinct impression that we were starting to accumulate random ships just littering the system.
It would be nice to fight against "evil Guardians", those who have been corrupted by the Darkness. They exist in the lore, but we never met one in the game
It seems like it would be pretty hard to code that. It would be like an AI crucible, right? Unless the enemy guardians transform into big bosses for final fights.
@@ClaireNighten Savathun and the Hive lightbearers are a good example of how it could be done. The difference is that they would be human/exo/awoken and perhaps be able to use any subclass and perhaps some exotics. It would be kind of similar to AI Crucible, but with changes. I don't know how to code, but I guess it's possible, since they did something similar with the Lucent Hive.
dumb idea. we dont need warlords v2
@AnyOther-Name powerful guardians will be all that's left after the witness get clapped
That would change the game’s rating, which means it’s almost definitely never going to happen
The Vex make the most immediate ssense. We still haven't dealt with a Vex combat unit, iirc - all have been custodian units. There's so much meat left on that temporal bone
I believe that Wyverns are actually true combat units
@@gavinhendricks8689 What he means is a true military force as a whole. But yes, you are right the Wyverns are combat units.
@@gibster9624and not even the scary ones
Who are the vex? Aren’t they those metal guys who are randomly thrown into season and dlc with little to no story reason? The same guys with a really distinct art style for their architecture, terraformed entire worlds, who now are more synthwave tron people?
Ah sorry the vex have always been my favorite faction but it’s so depressing to see them just kinda exist to throw some variation into a season and have never had a true focus placed on them. My worst fear is that will happen after Final Shape which personally I’m not going to be playing
The vex suddenly becoming the main villains is laughable. They of all races should have a major role in the LvD saga due to the Sol divisions lore on the Gardner and widower plus they were the last enemies we fought at the end of D1's campaign. Making them just randomly appear to fight us with no real story significance and then suddenly making them the main villains is poor writing.
Somewhere in a bungie storyboard room, the sound of madly scribbling pencils can be heard.
We have a spy in the lines
Lol, scribbling by who? Aint nobody left
Nezarec should try after the raid. Makes sense since he never truly dies.
He might also have things to do with psions uprising, they kinda have shared history
@@nankaq9909if he’s one of the bosses in the raid then maybe he’ll try and take over the Monolith with pure psychic powers, and remember he commands the Nightmares too
Nun of them truly die death I’d irrelevant when u scale above it
I do hope we see more of Nezarec. I'm wondering if he'll ever get his OG body back... lol. To be honest, I was not too psyched with the design we got in Root of Nightmares. It wasn't... horrible, y'know, but there were more than a few times when I'd look at him running around our DPS plate and couldn't help but think that he legit looked like some kinda chicken or a fat dude in a red jumpsuit. His is a character that had a lot of speculation built around him over the years. Heck I remember people theorycrafting about him since vanilla D2. Over the years we had a few hints here and there, very ominous stuff, but nothing huge until close to Lightfall and we gathered some of his body parts n everything... So I figured, if he did show up, he'd be a tad more intimidating... lol.
I love the way Byf describes this power vacuum, and its potential factions that could fill it to oppose us and the Coalition. It’s like one big, galaxy-wide chess game. With the mention of rescources left unkecked, I can’t help but wonder if the Warsats will come back into play for the Coalition to use them as a type of security system to fortify Earth, Neomuna, and the Reef? Somewhere in the lore, it’s mentioned that the facility that manufactures the Warsats, still exists on Mars. Rasputin can’t be recovered, but if there is a way to build up the Warsat network again, it would prove useful for the security and defense of the Coalition. Though, it would possibly take our best engineers, Ana, Elizabeth, and others, many years to build it back from the ground up, and put it back online. One advantage to this, is that Xivu and what remains of House Salvation, would have a much lower chance of using the Warsats against us.
It'd also be funny if Banshee just woke up on a random tuesday remembering some access code to a backup warmind that he kept in case Rasputin failed
There is something about Rasputins code being inside the dog we found
@@nankaq9909I don’t know if Rasputin would’ve planned that far ahead. But he did make protocols and contingency plans. Maybe he made one for us to rebuild the Warsats after his death? He can process information and make calculations in nanoseconds, so it’s not too far fetch’d to imagine he’d made blueprints and instructions left for Ana to find, in his last days alive. But yeah, considering how Banshee remembers and forgets stuff, it’d be a funny coincidence.
I love this idea. We could build a new Warmind. It wouldn't be as powerful as Rasputin but it'd definetly serve well as surveilance and early warning system at least. I propose we name it "Fellwinter" after Rasputin's son.
Toland when the Witness dies: “It’s free real estate 🤷♂️.”
Toland taking over Xivu's now vacant throne world is an interesting idea. I was following him around in the Ascendant plane the other day, and he made a comment that he killed his own ghost. While Toland hasn't been overtly hostile against us, he certainly hasn't friendly and we know he really hates our rejection of the throne. Toland's title of "the Shattered" is oddly poetic with the fact he was the first to know about the Lunar Pyramid... which taught Eris how to use Stasis... The mad wizard learning to use stasis and falling to darkness is right in line with the final shape: a synthesis of Light and Dark. One might call it.. a season of Heresy?
I could see Toland learning to wield Stasis, and whatever the final, third darkness power will be. Not Strand, as it requires one to relinquish control and let ones will flow freely, without worry, and see the connectivity between themselves, and others. Toland wouldn’t subscribe to such views. So he could become a Hive God that would wield Stasis, Hive magic, and whatever the final darkness element may be. The Worm Gods would be looking to a new god they can count on to protect them, empower them, and act in their behalf. They may have begun to lose faith in Xivu, while Savathun is a heretic. The Worms could be desperate enough to reform his body and soul, and make him a Hive god that takes over Xivu’s Throneworld after we slay her, and kill off most of her forces on Torrobaital. The only question left is, what god would he be? I doubt a Hive god of war. Doesn’t seem like Toland’s style. Perhaps a Hive God of Chaos? Toland was mad, and chaos and madness often coincide.
@@garrettviewegh9028 In the lore we've seen Toland referred to as both a Void Walker, and a Sunsinger; combine that with his apparent mastery of death, and assuming he learned Stasis on Luna before his death... He'd be pretty far along on mastering many of the elements. In several lore tabs Eris is pretty angry that Toland never told anyone about the Lunar Pyramid cause he had to have known before he led them down into the pit. I've had a theory for a while based on the lore of the Deathsingers and Toland that long story short, I think the death song is used to "take" things by ripping their souls out of them. I think Toland "Took" himself as part of his obsession with knowledge. The death song lyrics in their few instances in lore all include the names of the Worm Gods, like it's a sacrificial mechanism. What greater act of 'Stasis born control' could there be than taking your own soul? He's been very upfront that he's using us for some purpose and leading us to slaughter like a lamb, but... the proverbial slaughter keeps not happening... unless we're not strong enough yet for him to outlast us and prove his superiority, in much the same way Eris took Savathun's power. I agree Stand isn't in keeping with his character, but Void+Solar+Stasis+SoulFire= Profit? Most of Toland's rants end up being annoyed that people don't understand the ontological truth about the universe that "Things of higher stability survive than their lower stability counterparts." It's the same concept as Evolution by Natural selection, and close but not the same as Sword Logic. It might seem an academic dispute, but sword logic requires killing; outlasting the other party because you're just that much better than them that you don't need to kill them is...elegant.
A soul that exists because it defined itself to exist is a pretty elegant para-causal tautology to circumvent that whole pesky natural world, and right in line with what the forger of the Bad Juju would find hilarious.
I was re-playing a witch queen mission, and it reminded me of one of the two truths and two lies from Savithick. One of the options is that our destiny lies outside of Sol. That got me thinking about what comes after the light and dark saga, and I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch that something calls us to outside of Sol. This gives Bungie leeway to make all new worlds with all new powers and abilities available. New enemies, new allies, and new dilemmas. Makes sense to me, but I’m not an expert on lore 🤷🏻♂️
and the guardians will have only one question... can we make a weapon out of The Witness and use it on whomever takes over?
It's a sidearm that fires rockets
It’ll be Telesto obviously
Ah yes the all mighty telesto we got to be careful and not make it mad or it will break all of destiny forever
My problem is that once we kill the Witness who is essentially the most powerful being in the universe, nothing that Bungie sets up will seem like a threat. Bro can Thanos snap guardians into pieces, he’s the source of the Taken, and he’s the literal embodiment of an entire civilization of darkness worshipping cultists. If we can take him… any other big bad won’t seem threatening to me.
There is speculation that the ahkmakara (probably butchered that) are coming back which could be just as big a threat
Tankis, The Machine God.
In all seriousness, I kinda want the Taken to just die off. Treat them like the Flood from Halo after it fires: still present, but starving to death with no way of making more of themselves. The blight they’ve left on the universe remains, but they are leaderless and feral.
You forgot about the Drifter. He can be the new Taken King too....
"That's a gambit the Nine would have to foot the bill for and I doubt they would willingly give up that kind of power"- My Hunter
It sounds crazy but I think the drifter works for the pyramid fleet and he is playing two sides of the war or the nine are working with him who work for the witness I think he is an outright traitor without showing it
Perhaps the Vex, upon seeing their simulations fail to predict our victory, will try to bind themselves to the light, like they did with the dark, and create so thing new. Maybe not a new villain, but they might create a new faction
Pragmatic allied vex under the passive suggestion of Asher maybe?
@@iamoctonatepretty sure Asher was erased in a lore tab after the Vexcaliber mission. Might have misread/misremembered it though
@@NightshadeDE Misraaks said he went into the vex nexus and said Asher likely would make it but Asher is probably still around.
*insert my guardian sitting in a corner mumbling like conspiracy theorist after witnessing the horrors of the vault of glass*
Its the vex i tell you. They are the true enemy
I know it’s basically guaranteed, but my brain keeps saying “what do you mean *when* we defeat the Witness?”
It feels like Bungie wrote themselves into a corner. The Witness is the most powerful being in the Destiny Universe, and when we kill it, wouldn’t that make us the most powerful? All story stakes after TFS mean nothing to me if we actually kill the Witness in the next expansion.
Idk if it's even possible to kill condensed spirits into one person
We never grow in power as guardians really thats how we can go from killing Oryx and still having trouble with people like Eramis y'know? Our power really is just prep time and exploiting weaknesses rather than just being uber powerful I mean we are powerful but we aren't like Oryx or Xivu casually shitting on planets.
My guess is that the raid will involve us shattering the Witness' component souls back into the aether. Darkness and Light are re-released into the universe instead of being concentrated in to two entities, and now we have to deal with all the smaller factions that want to take advantage of that. Use all the characters we have to build up new smaller-scale but still important threats.
Crow finds out the Sol Divisive are using the energy bursts to try and create a new Black Garden. Clovis Bray's head creates a plan to use the Darkness and Radiolara to copy himself to all the Exos so we need to help Ana and Elsie to stop him. Eramis and Misraaks find a lost colony of Eliksni who had isolated themselves on Pluto worshipping a Darkness artifact that's been reactivated.
Not exactly after all it takes 6 guardians to fight a raid boss. But there are other things out there in the universe. The witness is the strongest but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t other contenders out there.
This can be fixed with one simple solution: un-retconning the Gardener and Winnower.
The Dragonslayers lore book mentions visions of a new Torabotl and a betrayal amongst Caiatl's forces. I could see a new group of cabal forming from this betrayal after TFS.
Imagine that the Vex Divisive just switch over to worshipping the Traveller or the Guardian when we kill the Witness
Vex. They're happily waiting for us to take each other out and once we do? They will finally arrive in full force.
Hold on a sec, can’t the garden take control of the taken and the scorn?
I hope that "defeating the Witness" doesn't mean killing it. We can stop the Final Shape from happening while detaining the Witness in some other manner. Perhaps through the power of the Traveler & the Veil we can disseminate the Witness back into a race of people rather than one entity. Then the race continues after the same aim but is far less powerful and easier to manage. I think killing the Witness outright is going to feel empty
Savathun only has to unalive Xivu to take nearly all her brood. Only her love will cause her pause.
The Winnower, he definitely exists outside of unveiling, Eris has dialogue mentioning him, and Saint 14 has a dream where he is mentioned by the gardener
Agreed. Once we found out the Witness wasn’t a primordial being I surmised Bungo opened a window to write some primordial/elder god/s into the lore
@@ILUVsSUNDROP There’s some Final Shape collectors edition lore where Misrax’s daughter Eido observes a conversation that took place before the Witness was formed by a faction called the Consensus, that is separate from the Witnesses
The Winnower is a concept invented by the Witness's people that they desired & would embody the concept once they became the Witness, & Eris (in Arrivals) treats them as the same, as do others. Even if "the Winnower" is a separate Entity (an Entity at all) it doesn't make sense for it to show up when the Light & Dark saga is over
@@BrazarBthe Light and Dark come from one reality level above us, Unveiling doesn't disprove that
@@BrazarB Not true, nowhere is the Winnower stated to be a concept created by the pyramid race. Mara Sov, Saint 14, and Eris morn (in her hive form), all tell of the Winnower on their independent discovery in conversations not speaking about the Witness race, Mara says her father is the darkness, In Saint’s dream his mother(Gardener) says his violent nature comes from his father (the creator of the sword logic), and Eris after engaging heavily in the sword logic can hear a voice in the deep, that isn’t the Witness otherwise she would have pointed it out, so the Winnower is eluded to on his own, separate from the Witness race.
As for the next saga, the Gardener might die in the Final Shape as Imaru can hear her screams, and we can hear them in Garden of Salvation’s mini clarity statue, the Witness will probably kill her, or we might? leaving the Winnower to gain supreme control over the universe
The focus will probably be on the Vex and I bet u they’re going to suddenly make some Vex that can indeed communicate in a manner we can understand. They’re the only faction that hasn’t been focused on in a proper story format, it’s just us killing them without really learning anything new about them and how they function. Plus they make the most sense being the strongest non paracausal faction that could rival the hive makes sense to focus on after a saga of light and dark has just finished
I hope so. Tne Nine kidnapped a human to communicate for them, I believe Vex are more than capable of finding such metodes, if they need
New drinking game idea: Take a shot every time that Byf says "power vacuum". 😅
Great video as always! I've been straight binging your conten to catch up for TFS.
Thank you so much for all the work you all put in!
My running theory since they announced the final shape was that the true big bad of the next saga is the vex. They don’t seem to really care one way or another who wins because they’re beyond light and dark. This is what Kang is to the Thanos. Yeah the Witness is a problem, but it is in every reality and I’m sure the Vex have dealt with it before, final shape or not. The vex want everything to become the vex. Osiris said himself we haven’t even seen vex military units yet- these are all just researchers, builders and farmers at this point.
Who's to say we will even defeat The Witness? He might survive whatever happens after the Final Shape.
My guess is they’re going to focus on Xivu Arath as a new main antagonist and maybe introduce a new Vex enemy.
Personally, I think nothing would be more powerful than the remaining worm gods. I hope we see more of them. How crazy would it be if they actually helped us in some way against the witness in order to avenge Xita. Or once the witness is defeated they come to our system to get the hive in order and to punish Savathun. Ever since we heard them roar in the final mission of the season of the lost, I've wanted to see more.
To sum up the video “who the fuck knows! Things will happen”
I would say the possible next big bad is going to be one of the Nine, the Awoken overlords in the Distributary, etc..
the nine are not related to the awoken nor related to the Distributary, the Nine have their own metaphysical thought realm and are infact strings of primordial dark matter that thread throughout the solar system each being a representation of the major celestial bodies of the solar system. the Sun, Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Neptune and Uranus.
strictly speaking Mara has had dealings with the Nine through Orin and Xur in regard to Skolas, the Rabid
@@fangslore9988 i did not say they are related to the Awokrn, I was talking Bout the Awoken overlords that were left behind in the Distributary
@@MW2proification the distributary is sealed from the parent uiniverse the guardian lives in, it was only Mara who was able to bring back her loyal awoken from the distributary other awoken don't have that power, her exposure to light and dark has gifted her with amazing and powerful paracausle abilities as she is the first awoken and the one who remade all the others on her ship into awoken when they reached the distributary, and remember she created the distributary from the chaos of light and dark. and there are no awoken overlords the awoken in the distributary are led by Mara's mother
We will fight Mara Sov. You can see it being set up. Crow will die inside the Traveler and she will blame us because we weren’t “1 step behind” as Osiris promised her.
Never considered them much of a threat, but now that I think about it, any Psions of the Conclave could be a problem for us. Besides they’re psychic abilities, and ability to look into the past and future, those that aren’t loyal to Nezarec could utilize the Veil, Vex, or Pyramid technology to become a grave threat if they can predict our moves against them. Especially if some are among Caital’s ranks.
Call me crazy but I kinda wanna see a potential faction of hostile humans arrive
The Vex have always been a mystery to me, I love the Black Garden and always considered it to be a liminal space. Also something so eerie but satisfying are the Descendant Vex, they are so old and come from the far future, what are they doing, what have they achieved? Yes here we are understanding the Vex, definitely my most mysterious yet intriguing faction
What if we don't kill the Witness and we just make him split up and they tell us about why the final shape needed to happen. The reason the Traveler looked like it was buried when the Witness found it.
Yeah, good concept for the aftermath. However, I don't think we will kill The Witness because we can't. So far, even in Lightfall, we have only been show how ABSURDLY OP The Witness actually is:
It is completely unfazed even when being shot at with primordial and pure Light directly from the Traveler (only its pyramid ships are taking damage), it can easily tap into our Ghosts and completely take control over them and what is even better, it can just move a finger and prema-kill Guardians. There hasn't been a single Showcase or clue about Witness's weakness so I am pretty firm in my observation that it is definitely unkillable.
That is, of course, if Bungie doesn't come up with some re*arded bs that the Witness is suddenly damagable inside the Traveler whether by some random artifact, by mere chance or even worse, by "power of friendship". The best thing they can do in TFS is find a way to make The Witness unable to be "a factor in the overall calculus of war" like Byf said it. Only thing that comes to my mind is maybe trapping it inside the Traveler, being surrounded by that much Light will probably make a good Cage of sorts.
Either way, killing it will make TFS worse than Lightfall
My guess, if bingie hasn’t retconned it, the winnower. It would be the only villlain more powerful than the witness, and could bring back the cosmic horror elements that destiny lost when they introduced the witness
yeah that aint happening
you do realize the whole gardener and winnower weren't really beings? it was what the witness called the traveler adn im guessing the veil
They already did... The Garden Game was just an abstract story of creation. The Garden doesn't exist, it's not what we know as The Black Garden, and the winning "pattern" from past games isn't the Vex.
I don't get why people think it's a retcon ever since Unveiling dropped it was believed to be allegory, it's not like Unveiling was clearly centimated to be all true. & *if* it is an actual entity I dont think "the Winnower" would show up after this saga
Gareneder/winnower is the mythology that the Witness people came up with to explain the traveler
Perhaps the black garden vex may attempt to re-create the black heart or something similar
I imagine that the guardians of the last city might actually eventually have a Civil War once they no longer have a common threat, keeping them all together and as the numbers of the wish, dragons begins to replenish, we may actually have a potential Civil War amongst guardians especially if the remaining members of the Vanguard parish during the events of the final shape or the events following. Savathun may even attempt to persuade some of the last city guardians to join her side through a very persuasive argument.
Old fashions mentioned throughout the lore may even take advantage of current events to the point we may even have a human enemy faction.
New monarchy might even attempt to forcefully take the last city, with the assistance of dead orbit and future war cult remnants. Perhaps, even out of a belief that the leadership of the last city has been corrupted and had to be stopped at all costs. These renegade factions might even spread propaganda about how the Vanguard is in league with Savathun And will spread it further propaganda on how the Vanguard can no longer be trusted and possibly portray the coalition forces as just the barrel of a gun pointed at the citizens of the last city, forcing them to stay in line.
Whatever the reasons, it seems highly probable, that humanity may be forced to spill its own blood in a Civil War over the fate of the last city, and who ultimately has the authority to rule it and earth.
Plus, a lot of players have been begging for years for a new enemy action.
Apparently the hive are increasingly becoming uninteresting for a lot of players, and the Cabal at this point are more or less irrelevant as an enemy faction. Bungie might be forced to introduce a new enemy race faction, or even do some sort of covenant ordeal where massive amounts of the remaining darkness aligned factions merge into a single faction and work together.
Plot twist: the traveler was made and we find it’s creators after the final shape 😱
I honestly hope we see a lot out of Fikrul. He’s so fucking cool in my opinion, dude is like the Night King.
Night King? Is he from Game of Thrones? Or WoW?
Savathun must be the God of self-deception if she thinks we'll ever consider her a threat again.
I think the Witness’ people want dragon breakfast, and we’re bringing them eggs.
The death of the Witness would be the perfect opportunity for ol Drifter to pick up a few more Taken for a Gambit revamp.
What happens if we stop the Witness' plans, but we don't actually "Kill" the Witness? We stop him/them but gets away?
We need to remember that Mara Sov’s objective is to maintain balance between light and dark. What if defeating the witness means that the light becomes the dominant force? Could she turn against us?
Or maybe the balance will be restored by itself with light fading to a fraction of it's power after Witness is defeated, and the Vex see this as a opportunity to take over sol
I'm really hoping it's not going to be a World of Warcraft situation with the Lich King's death, in the sense that "there must always be a Witness" type of deal.
what about drifter and the taken he uses in gambit and sometimes as even security on his ship? or were those the ones you mentioned with the nine
Either nezarec or One of the Nine need to be the next villian, that would be the MOST SATISFYING and the most badass outcome
What if mara sov takes control of the taken?! Didn't she experiment with it? Also, didn't she mention she was hiding something and to be wary of her. After all she could read someone's desires but can't disclose them to others because it benefits her mainly due to her feeding off of it?
I think you take for granted the idea of a unified Guardian force in the future, several Lightbearer's may have... complicated relationships with the Vanguard following the Witness's demise.
I know there are some people out there who still think The Winnower is a thing apart from The Witness, and that would be the answer but I just don't see it. I strong suspect The Witness started out life in the writers room as the Winnower, then writer turnover caused it to change over time
What happens if we don’t win? what happens if everything ultimately fails “again”? What if in the final shape we get the final shape and echoes is something completely new within this final shape
It's important to remember that most vex we have seen are engineers, architects, etc
None of the vex besides wyverns are combat units due to lack of need for them. All vex units are builders true but they are perfectly suited for combat as listed in the taken lore cards from D1. No need for dedicated combat units if regular engineers can fight off any non paracasel threat. Calus's claim of vex having true warriors is a lie and the vex mentioned under quria's control when it invaded Crota's throne world canonically can't exist since we would have already seen them in season of the splicer.
By the Vex's cold calculus, if the Light defeats the Darkness, rather than continue to attempt to bind themselves to the Darkness, they will recognize the Light as ascendent, and attempt to bind itself to that instead.
What if we don't kill the witness but instead he gets taken by the vex to unlock paracausality
There is yet the possibility that (somehow) as a result of the Winess's demise.....Oryx will rise again.
Honestly if the Sol Divisive made the calculation to trust a paracausal power once whos to say they wont do it again? What if they straight up just switch to the light as the greatest unknowable power to bind themselves to? Just a thought
I think the Nine and the Awoken in the Distributory are also worthy wildcards.
I swear to god if there was a vex mind that developed a whole ass personality, I think I'd have my new favourite destiny villain
One interesting idea for the Vex, especially the Sol Divisive, would be if they would consider joining/following the Light. They tasted what worship can achieve, and as you say, they could choose to abandon the Witness and what it represented.
And with that logic, then why not try to now join the force that defeated the Witness? The forces of the Light would have proven to be stronger, and maybe the Vex could calculate now a path where they integrate with the Light instead, ensuring their survival by stopping being our enemies? Could be an interesting path for them (and would give a nice, ironic, new meaning to the Sol Divisive, if we assume that we are part of a "Sol Coalicion" xDDD)
I could see lucent hive trading light with the worshipping vex in order to achieve a greater goal, which might lead to vex getting a bit more access to the light than it's safe for the entire universe
The Vex hate anyone who isn’t them. That’s why they terraform everything into cubes. They followed the Witness because Vex are the best contenders in a Dark world. They’ll do the same with Light. They were able to kill Saint, they might do another light draining mind.
They'd probably be called the Sol Ascendance and be lead by Asher.
I think vex will discover paracausality after we defeat Space Sukuna
My joke dream is that a small faction of Hive, from either Dark or Lucent, or both, decides to split off and worship the now defunct Goddess of Vengeance Eris Morn. Cause let's be real, she existed only during the blink of an eye, in Hive timescale, but DAMN the things she did in that blink xDDDDD
I kinda want to see this little cult of Hive gathering close to Eris's camp on the Moon, never aggresive but always around. It would be funny, like a grim creepy fanclub xDDDDDD
Her new boyfriend won't have to worry about what to eat for dinner anymore
I have a question about the non Sol-divisive Vex: Are they innately hostile towards humanity/ the coalition? I don't know... If they are, then not much will change after the defeat of the Whitness. If they aren't, then shouldn' t they just...leave Sol and ignore us? The universe is a vast place after all...
I think giving the Eliksni to Mithrax as the defacto leader since Eremis left the system is a bit odd. If anything I'd think if Eremis was still in the system it would further improve Mithrax's ability to assume the mantle of Kell of Kells. Eremis and Mithrax were building an understanding at the end of their last encounter espcially with Eido as the intermediary.
Now that Eremis is gone that leaves only one Kell level player left for Spider to usurp. Spider has a hand in multiple houses and built many schemes up to this point to ensure his safety from other races. If there's 3 characters that the destiny universe should be scared of its Savathun, Mara Sov, and Spider. All capable of elaborate planning, playing the long game, and spinning opportunity into personal gain. Even when you think your objectives align with theirs it most likely has 2-3 more layers that they're playing at simultaneously.
Honestly, it wouldn't be much of a "power vacuum" imo, because the witness hasn't done anything. He hasn't done anything to the last city, and he hasn't taken out anyone we care about. Besides helping the traveler, which isn't really all that loyal to use anyway, there no reason to fight him except for self preservation. So unless the witness really brings the pain next season, it won't matter who takes over, because the witness never set a high bar to begin with. If hurting the traveler is all he's got, then he's no better that ghaul, or Rasputin.
"No reason to fight him except for self-preservation."
...?
Are you just ignoring the part where the Final Shape will erase everything the Witness deems to not have a purpose in its designs?
Here what that sounds like: " The big bad has not done anything to ME, personally. Why should I stop him from rewriting reality in its image?"
@@Catalyst375 I hear you, but not quite what I mean. When I say "he hasn't done anything," I'm referring to the witness as a character, and his reputation as a villain. Think of Negan from the walking dead. One of the greatest villains in the series, imo. But that was because of the build-up of everything he did before the final fight. The witness just doesn't come of as that big of a threat. It didn't have to be "personal," just impactful. Something to make fans WANT to see him get beaten.
And yes, "self-preservation." Preservation for themselves, their friends, families, homes, and way of life. Rather than just submitting to what the witness wants. The same goes for the awoken, cabal, and eliksni. Zavala, and many others have lost faith, and stopped relying solely on the traveler. Especially since many of them lost people they care about, and it did nothing in response. So why would anyone fight for it now?
I wonder if the Vex of the Sol Divisive would see their "god" defeated by us and choose to worship us instead
If a subdivision of Vex can have faith in the Witness what is preventing the Sol Divisive or another bracket to point their reverence at a user of the Light? What's stopping a Guardian from replacing the Witness after it's death in the eyes of the Sol Divisive?
Hey Byf I wanted to get your thoughts on something. Is Xivu locked out of the entire ascendant plane or just her throne world? Could she go to someone else’s throne or could she even create a new throne world? There may have been some lore that discussed this that I missed but either way I’m curious
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I remember you mentioning a while ago go a conversation between the Witness and an unknown disciple. The disciple was unsure of what the final shape was and they discussed how each (known) disciple went about assisting in the Witness’s plans. I think they might end up making an appearance.
Eramis. We still have a score to settle with her seeing as how we pretty much ruined her plans. Despite feeling used by the Witness, there's no denying that the beef still hasn't been squashed.
Nezarec since we didn't really kill him in the raid, because no one ever really stays dead in Destiny.
Even though Calus is confirmed dead (until next expansion probably), we still have to deal with his Shadow Legion and whoever is leading it now with him gone.
Riven is alive somehow, and we'll at some point have a newly hatched Ahamkara, along with several of Riven's children. Ahamkara are potentially dangerous, so there's gonna be a second hunt.
Truth be told, Destiny will never truly end as long as Bungie milks this franchise dry. Considering the many Eververse purchases EVERYONE has dropped, no way this franchise is gonna end soon. Hell, we're close to passing the 10 year mark on this series, and there's only been two games to its name.
About Eramis, she was planning to return to Riis. As I remember, there was a scannable on Titan that was catching signals from Riis, but it only picked up silence. My girl gonna be disapointed.
Also, I can't help but wonder how would the Nine react to new Ahamkara in existence?
I know I’m being insane but maybe it could be Maya
We did learn she copied her mind and tried copying the witness in a way, instead of fussing a large group of people into one she turned one person into many. Maybe shes still around like some people theorized
Loved the old gameplay with this video! Lots of good memories!
I'm of the opinion that, with the Witness's death, the powers of Darkness will spread. I can see the Vex acquiring paracausal power.
Well... if there's a Power vacuum after the death of the witness, presuming that there will be any guardians left playing the game, there is only one that can fill that role, and that's Dyson's.
Would be even cooler if the taken just dissolved after the witness goes down because no one could properly control them
i think there will be a other Kell for the Eliksni, maybe for the House of Salvation but as allies. it would be nice but i don't think Bungie is going to do more stuff with the Eliksni
Don't forget, Drifter has exerted a limited amount of control over the Taken as well, not particularly well as shown in how that cutscene played out, but he will only get better.
8:24 What evidence states/suggest that the Throne World still works as a resurrection method for Savathun
What evidence is there that it doesn't?
Can you do a video of what happens if he's defeated Mara with or without taken end up backstabbing us and what that means and the possibility of if it's possible with wish magic to make a ghost invincible (crow)
It is time to introduce the true wielder of the darkness "The Winnower"
Wait, isn't there is one of Oryx son taken ? And he got some personnality back even ?
Nokris was the other son, if memory serves me well. He died in season of arrivals
Tldr - We can beat our oldest enemy and we'll still be well and truly screwed in the aftermath. Saving the world does not equate to saving the realm.
I was late on watching this but I really enjoyed it
I wonder if Yrix &/or the rogue psions will take over the Shadow Legion, it would also make it easier for Bungie to get more use out of those LF cabal models
Also, is it officially confirmed by Bungie that Echoes is a vex episode? That image could be a psion
The witness will continue to exist because, despite his efforts he cannot create the final shape. It’s because he can only wield the darkness. The power of the light cannot be taken, it has to be given. So the Witness cannot twist the pale heart of the traveller into its vision. Only Guardians can, and only one guardian will… Crow. It’s why he was resurrected. His path is leading to the pale heart, and mastery of the light and darkness. He will become the final shape, and the witness will be robbed of its power.
Who's to say the Guardians won't turn on each other now that a threat to the universe is out of the picture now? the potential of a very obvious thing they can do "New species/enemy" this is a huge universe. Vex constantly being a threat of coarse why not try to "mix" something in with them whether that be a guardian helping them in some way or further advancing their tech. Last but not least if the question still remains what can you do without the witness/Darkness being in the universe = We have an entire game dedicated to not talking/including the Darkness - "Destiny 1". (Yes ik the speaker constantly talked about it but did it ever mean anything) ;/
I think another major force that could fill the power vacuum left behind by the Witness would be the reemergence of the Ahamkara, especially if Riven's children take more after Riven than Taranis in sowing chaos throughout the system, the kind of paracausal chaos that the Witness was specifically looking to outlaw in its Final Shape for the universe. If you kill the thing that represents Order and Finality, all that's left is unfettered Chaos and struggle. If there is to be a Second Great Hunt, it will likely play out different from the first with its own unique challenges affecting everyone in the system.
18:55 What other instances of docking are there?
Xivu Arath is an unprecidented move seeks out Taox forges an alliance to assume asbsolute control of the hive
If he hasn’t yet, Byf should make a video going over potential storylines in the new saga
Say it louder please, for ones in the back
Ah yes. There’s that word again. “Docking”. Most Eliksni do not like this but some do…
I want all the pain of when we kill the witness to resurrect Nezarec the right way this time man he got done so damn dirty
Why are you assuming we will defeat the Witness? Could we possibly lose and the Witness reshapes (final shape) the universe we inhabit? Could it be possible the Traveler is actually the "bad" guy? Time will tell.