As one of the 6 non white listeners here (black female) who actually has locs in my hair, I’d just like to say personally I don’t mind if other races beside mines have locs. Just be mindful that my people til this day still get prosecuted for what society thinks is “cool” and “trendy” on you but on us it’s deemed as dirty and unkempt. Tbh most black people I know don’t care how anyone wears their hair, we just wanna be treated equally and left alone so we can live our beautiful black lives in peace!! ❤️
This is what I have heard for the most part about white peoples using other cultures hair styles that it’s totally fine and most people don’t mind That being said you bring up a good point with how it is perceived on different people which is where the issue really is I think
Yall are right but as a person from the south, Family is from the Caribbean, a lot of those types of people don't like to see other races with locs. I did not like to see it myself because when I travel, I've lived in a few countries all over, there is always this negative stereotype or false narrative about the process of achieving locs and maintaining them because people want to have that look. So from that, a lot of the onus is dropped on us because our hair is most adapted for it and we are seem as dirty or hooligans that don't maintain our hair. Now I've come to not care as much, I've had locs for like 6 years and if you want all that responsibility with your hair, take it on. Locs in my mind now has separated its self from like box brains and cornrows. All in all, yes we woukd like to be left out of other people's perceptions of what other races and ethnicities do to achieve our things.
I'm indian and i love it when my culture is represented outside my country, as long as it isn't done in a mocking way. honestly sometimes hearing white people get offended on our behalf comes across as arrogant because it's not what most of us believe, and it can seem like we're being talked over
Black guy here. 35 years old next month. We're not a monolith and I'm not the Black ambassador, but I say let people do whatever they want with their own bodies. If you look for it online, you'll find strong opinions either way. Bear in mind these very loud people are the vocal minority (no pun intended), and I imagine most of us are more concerned with bills, our loved ones, our health and safety than cultural appropriation. But again, I'm not the ambassador.
Yeah, I wouldn't say the vocalized disdain is in the minority when it comes to online and real-life community settings of this topic in different generations, said as a black person . But I do agree with the rest of your point.
Yeah I had a professor who was in his 70s, seemed pretty homophobic tbh, and he used partner because he wasn't married to his girlfriend but he thought girlfriend sounded childish and too unserious for his taste. Lots of people use partner or life partner because they're not married, but are in a very serious monogamous relationship. I also like partner because if everyone is using it, it's safer for queer people to talk about their partner without someone being like "wait, why didn't they say wife/husband?" The more normalized it is, the better it is for the community imo.
I am in straight passing relationship. I cross female in forms and they crosses male...but we both are somewhat indifferent/fluid about our gender. We regularly have the gender talk discussing about how we feel about our gender. Already, when we started dating they asked if I was ok with them using term 'girlfriend' about me. 🥰They asked this, because they did not want to misgender me. It feels better to use term partner, because then I am not accidentally misgendering them (in our language pronouns are not gendered, so this is basically only way I could misgender them). Also, it is more formal for unmarried couple. Also, I don't feel good about fiancee eather, because I don't want to put marrige on a pedastal.
@@d3ndr0ph1l3, yes sure. However, at least in my relationship many outside people would not know about our gender jorney. They would likely think, we are just an other straight couple using term partner...especially in native language, where pronouns are genderless.
As a bi, 26-year-old Mexican woman, I have shared my traditions with friends from other cultures like creating an Altar to celebrate Day of the Dead. I am happy when they take on that tradition in a respectful and traditional way. However, what makes me upset is when people appropriate these traditions and they haven't had those conversations with people from that community. But I am only one person and don't speak for all Mexicans, just my opinion.
The conversation about cultural appropriation is so frustrating and exhausting as a black women I think we don’t care as much about who’s wearing what it’s just the fact that we get penalized and disenfranchised for wearing hairstyles created by us for us but others can wear it and profit from it or even wear it to humiliate us and profit or get recognition. The credit is never given to us and the significance it is for us is oversimplified to the general public .
I don't think "Partner" is gay thing, at least outside of the US maybe? As a Brit, my parents used 'partner' because they weren't married, but they were also adults and felt weird saying 'boyfriend/girlfriend' when they're like 45. Might just be a language thing, like Americans saying 'school' to mean 'any education', whereas we'd only use school for school, and specify college, university etc beyond that.
Another Brit who was also confused by the partner thing because I’ve seen it used for ages. My brothers been with his partner for years now and they have 2 kids and everyone just refers to them as X/Ys partner because calling them X or Ys girlfriend/boyfriend just feels too childish
I also use the equivalent of partner in French and German to talk about my life partner as we're not married, but are over thirty with a child. Boyfriend just doesn't sound right to me.
I’m so glad that I can listen to this podcast now that it’s a religion based podcast. What a cool vibe with each of the 3 members representing the father son and Holy Spirit.
I'm a 60 year old cis het male who has been in a relationaship with the same woman for 35 years, though we never got married. We've been using "partner" for 30+ years because it is the best fit for us. It has nothing to do with appropriation and everything to do with "significant other" sounding dumb and "boyfriend/girlfriend" sounding ridiculous for two adults (and obviously husband/wife doesn't fit either).
I am an Indian Hindu and personally, I don’t mind people sharing my culture or my religion, as long as they’re genuinely trying to learn and enjoy it. I’ve also grown up around Indians and they were always proud and more than happy to teach others about us
I appreciate hearing from you. I was just sitting here wondering about yoga, meditation, and Ayurveda being brought to the West and wondering how people who share the cultures from which they originate feel about that.
I would say the same thing about Latinoamerica, as long as you are respectful and really appreciating the culture, it’s fine. I think that sometimes people in the USA are really sensitive about this culture appropiation, (more than the people in the actual culture being “appropiated”).
We need someone single on this podcast cos us lonely lesbians need some relatability not this cute, lovey dovey, happy shit ahhahahahahahahahhahah (this is a joke 💀)
Y’all, singular they/them is not exclusive to nonbinary people. They/them have been singular use words for hundreds of years when the gender is unknown. You’re making a nonspecific term into a declarative. If you’re uncertain, use they/them. I think if people get angered about neutral language, then that is a personal choice to not fall into the default, but should not dictate a systematic change to language
On the language thing, I came out to my immigrant family recently, and they have started to use the word ‘partner’ to refer to my future girlfriend. They used to say husband/boyfriend. I don’t think they can bring themselves to say wife/girlfriend but partner is a good start!
my creative consultant and trusted advisor (gf) pointed out something I wanted to flag bc I can't believe non of us thought of it, its a possibility that the terms were just filter out of the persons comments manually! just wanted to highlight this for the discourse because it's very possible.
as a Slovak/Central-Eastern European, the cultural talk felt very distant from my experience - for instance the dreads or the "they/them" usage... I specifically remember my high school English teacher (this was almost 10 years ago and the teacher was about to retire) getting annoyed when students were using "he/she" in essays or in conversations, she would always argue that substituting it with "they" was a better/more elegant solution 😀
Yeah I don't specifically remember someone saying to use one over the other but I do know that it has always been very normal and seemingly standard to use "they" instead of saying "he/she" because it's just.... easier? It's easier to type, it's easier to read, it's not bulky and weird. Singular "they" has always been a thing. I've read that it actually predates the use of singular "you." Everyone uses "they" in the singular sense without even thinking about it. The only reason people are now upset by it is because they associate it with trans/nonbinary people. People are asking them to intentionally do something they've always done in order to respect their identity and now they're upset. Edit: I am Canadian
Interestingly, I remember my high school English teacher telling us to use “he or she” rather than they/them pronouns because it was “more proper” but it didn’t make any sense to me. And this would’ve only been like 5 years ago (also I’m American)
I'm in my 40s and I've grown up with people using partner as the default. I remember thinking it was weird that adults in American tv shows would call the person who they lived with and had children with their 'boyfriend/girlfriend'
I feel like this is pretty typical of relationships with a "masc" and "femme" counterpart because in most straight relationships the girl grabs and smacks the guys ass SO MUCH! And my boyfriend is more masc than I am and I'm CONSTANTLY smacking and grabbing his butt 😂😂😂😂
I've only recently come out as bi, but have been using the term "partner" for my straight husband, for about 7 years now and that was because I thought I was being more inclusive by saying it. My previous organization had a LOT of trainings around inclusivity where they encourage everyone (no matter your sexuality) to use the term "partner" when referring to your relationship(s). The thinking is that people who may be closeted at work can be their true selves around those folks; I look at it as an easy way to let someone know that this is a safe space/that you are safe to be your most authentic self around me.
Wow I am going to be honest and say that I really don't agree with that ideology around saying "partner" to signal that someone could be safe with you. (I don't mean you, specifically, but just in general). I had a colleague a few years ago who wore a rainbow watch, and mentioned it to me once, saying she wanted students to know they were safe with her. Only a few sentences later, she was trying to talk about a former student, and completely messing up their pronouns and making it clear she had NO IDEA what she was talking about. It very much feels like virtue signaling and feels super performative, rather than actually helpful in any way. I would so much rather someone try to normalize queerness by talking about queerness than use the word "partner" for every straight couple they know.
@@alisontippett2618 I honestly agree with you. I even have some cis-het friends who I love dearly, but who I, as a queer person, wouldn't consider a "safe space/person" for those exact same reasons. I've just been in one too many conversations with them that just forced me to remember, "Oh, yeah, you're not queer. You're just not going to get it." Like they all ignored the discomfort of both of their trans friends and non-binary friend and not only bought, but fawned over the Harry Potter game. They kept asking myself (bisexual) and my sister (trans) if we were going to play it even after all the discourse with this undertone of "are you going to be one of those queer people?" They even tried to tell us, "it's so inclusive because there's a trans character and a lesbian character" even though both of those representations offended me even just from the description of them. And then with the release of Red, White, and Royal Blue, one friend had us all read the book so we could watch the movie with her, and despite the strong anti bi-erasure throughout both and two of us being bi the cis-het friends still continued to call it a "gay movie" and a "gay romance" and kept referring to the bi character as gay even as we tried to gently push and hint to them using the right wording. By the end of it I was just like, y'all really aren't listening are y'all? It's not enough to just wave a rainbow flag and co-opt the language, you have to listen to what we're saying. Applying queer terms to straight people just gives them more ways to be a surface level ally without actually listening to us.
with cultural appropriation I feel the selective outrage that Ashley mentioned is so true and there is also a fickleness to it, to be honest I feel countries like the UK, USA & Canada get too caught up in it all whereas a lot other people from other countries (like me) see it is as creating problems (overthinking) and that someone enjoying a certain practice, clothing, hairstyle typical of a certain culture is not the end of the world and actually react really positive to someone engaging with cultures other than their own. Choose to be happy, expending unnecessary energy trying to police people is not the one!
You are so right ! I'm Canadien but from Quebec (wich is very different from the rest ) and we don't have, as much as english speeking ppl, those policing piliticly correct battle. I think it come a lot from USA media who saddly feed most of the content on tv and movie all around the world. And I would had to it that less human have stuggle with the basic (shelter, food, health) more they seek for battle. It's how our brain are trained from those cave days survival that need to fight for something, saddly only few choose the right batle like climat change, peace, food for evryone, migrant criss etc etc.
I think we should talk more about there being a difference between cultural appropriation and cultural appreciation. If someone’s doing something carelessly and because they think it’s cool or trendy and they don’t have any respect for where it comes from or how it originated, that’s bad imo. But if they want to learn more, if they talk about it with others in a positive light and give respect to where it came from, good on them
Okay I ended up a little gay babe, but when I was dating a man I developed epilepsy and was in and out of the hospital a lot before I was officially diagnosed. When I said boyfriend they wouldn’t let him in the room with me because he wasn’t family and we weren’t married. We noticed when we switched to partner he was allowed back! Shitty circumstances but it worked.
In general, I hate that rule. If you're in a relationship with someone and they're in the hospital, what does it matter if you're married or how long you've been dating? It's semantics at this point. Whether I've been dating someone for a year or 10 years, if they end up in the hospital, I'm going to want to see them to make sure they're okay.
@@raven_moonshine39Yes. Naturally. But that does not mean you have a legal relationship with your person. Hospitals have to concern themselves with the legalities. If you want your person to have medical power of attorney, that’s something you can do. Probably should do if you don’t want your next of kin to be making choices for you in the event that you aren’t capable.
This is the reason I told my BFF to say I'm her sister if I end up in the hospital, like from a car crash and I'm unconscious. My actual family is all only half relations (not full blood) and live in another state. They're too far away to be doing anything helpful, and know so little about me I wouldn't trust their judgement. Whereas my friend knows more about my medical conditions than they do, and would actually be comforting and advocate for me. The tricky is that I'm whiter than white and Gen X, and she's mixed race and Milennial. So our story is same dad, different mothers, dad met my mom first (bc each of our mothers was abusive and we don't want to out the lie by saying something about "mom" that is contradictory, while we had generally good relationships with our respective fathers.) We refer to each other as family and I get her kids bday and Xmas gifts and attend family functions, so it really is a chosen family situation. And I don't see why I should be left alone in a hospital, with no one for comfort and no one to advocate for me just bc our family is chosen and not biological. And on the subject of the term, straight peeps was using "chosen family" back in the 90s, to differentiate between blood family, from whom they were estranged.
On the „partner“ convo: In German it’s the other way around in a way. Since „girlfriend“ and „friend“ are the same word you usually only assume that two people are in a relationship if they are of opposite genders when the term „girlfriend“ is used. Partner on the other hand is a gendered term that makes it very clear to everyone that those two people are in a relationship. By using „partner“ you achieve the opposite, you intentionally out yourself. Funnily that term is also spreading through the straight ally community just like it is in English.
I think the equivalent of using of "partner" in English would be using "Beziehungsperson" as a default in German. As an enby I would feel a bit weird about that as well, yet I see the point that it is good to neutralise our language in terms of gender.
My friends and I (for context: all 22, 1 white man, 1 white woman and 2 black women (one of whom is me)) were literally talking about cultural appropriation through hair at the dinner table the other day. Someone expressed an interest in getting dreads. We spoke about arguments for both sides, Nordic traditions, bad connotations, different religions, loads of stuff. It’s totally still a thing don’t know why no one would have flagged that in the comments of that TikTok. 🖤
politely, as a norse-scots person with an MA in the era of our history they try to pull the 'nordic traditions' from, there aren't any. vikings weren't running around with locs and those of us who actually have that as our lived culture are largely fairly offended that it's being used by folk to justify them not listening to people of colour. those same people don't know anything about our real cultures and have no interest in learning. i know you probably know this anyway, but please have no fear in telling that white dude to shut up :D
I just think it’s such a weird thing to say any one group takes cultural ownership of tangled hair. Like it’s a thing that popped up in different cultures around the world. I don’t see how it benefits anyone to fight over who is allowed to have intentionally tangled hair.
Alongside selective outrage I think there's also an issue of self-indulgent outrage, where it is neither thought through, constructive nor effective. Limited thought is given to the act being critiqued, its consequences and complexities. Rather it's the popularity of outrage that prompts critique (especially in comment sections). My personal approach to sensitive/controversial topics is to reflect on if I'm either inflicting or promoting harm (in a very broad sense), do my actions uphold or dismantle structures of inequality, and to always be looking to learn.
I think that's very healthy, recognition of your former point & practicing of the latter. I was typing a response to someone else & came to realize their statements were so broad that it would be hard to offer an alternate perspective when it's an alternate to smthg like saying "outrage culture is too much." Like ok, but there are all these things to consider... and I think you got it, that if everybody was just thinking about those kinds of elements, context, their own place in the system that relate to potential harm or reductionism, we could deescalate from policing in an outrage way to informing or just bringing up for someone's consideration. Bc once they know, once they have the information, how they behave is then up to them & if folks treat them some kind of way, then it's due to a choice they made when they had the information & that's a matter of consequences. And I did question myself as to why I was responding to that person - was I being "self-indulgent"? To make myself feel like a "good ally" for protecting cultural practices? But then again, I find it hard to assess that sometimes, whether my words or actions are disproportionate or take things "too seriously". (Thanks, neurodivergence.) Since the person acknowledged that aspect of "as long as you're not causing harm," it felt like the rest was me trying to extrapolate on how we don't always recognize the harm we could cause... which could be an essay. Idk. It feels like if prominent culture didn't stoke defensiveness, we would see more people "learning their lesson" from a mistake & moving forward accordingly.
I'm bi and I feel the same way about my boyfriend as Alayna and Ashley are describing in their relationships. He comes off as very monotone and somewhat stoic to people who don't know him but dating him I know he is the goofiest and sweetest person. He's so cuddly and cute. Like he lays his head on my shoulder and cuddles into me more than I do him and I LOVE IT. I get sad sometimes that other people misunderstand him and it's not uncommon that I'm telling people he's joking or that he's not mad. He just struggles to show his emotions to most people. But I also enjoy that I know who he really is because he feels safe and comfortable to be his soppy, sweet, silly self around me
As an Indian woman, I'm also quite confused about the matter or what appropriation is and is not, but from what I've observed it sort of just varies based on what it is that is being spoken about. Indians love it when foreigners wear saris (a traditional clothing) or put bindis on (a kind of accessory) because we are quite secure in our culture, but with things like black language or dreads, because they have been discriminated against because of that very culture, appropriating it or using it seems a little bit like we're not acknowledging the pain or context behind it and so I don't think it's as black and white a matter. It truly varies from situation to situation.
As a bisexual woman I (also) use the term partner to let other people know that i am indeed fucking queer while i am in a straight passing relationship!!
White people can have dreads, appropriation is more complicated than wanting a hair style you like. I’m black and if I get locs its gonna be because I like the style nothing deeper just because I’m black, you know what I mean? And one time at a job I had my boss tell me her son had dreads (white) and said she didn’t understand all the hubbub about it and looked at me like I was supposed to explain it to her or how that’s appropriation. And that’s what annoys me the most honestly, that everyone’s so sensitive. If I want to move to another country, learn the language, and submerse myself in the culture, it seems a high possibility I’d get prosecuted for it? It’s obvious when something is appropriation or inappropriate or racist in my opinion and I hate how sensitive people are about it these days. You end up too far another way, like ‘so we aren’t mad about white dreads anymore?’ I don’t know, *are you?* Literally just shows a lot of people don’t even know what they’re upset about…
Yes! Honestly, I've only ever felt the most comfortable with partner being applied to bi and nonbinary people because it's so easy for our orientation/gender to be erased. And it doesn't matter who you're dating, you're going to get erased by someone, so I've always loved "partner" as a big neon sign that says I exist outside of your binary.
As a millenial who partied a lot as a youth, we used the term Chosen Family to refer to our close friends who understood us more than our actual family and lets face it - took a lot of drugs to escape trauma. Fairly sure we took it from the Human Tráffic quote "I'm going to never never land with my chosen family". But I only just realised that the correlation between the ecstacy/party scene and queer culture is definitely where this came from! ❤
Okay so I’m queer af, trans masc nonbinary, but I’m also polyamorous and hang out within that community a lot. 27:42 this discussion on the term partner and kind wanting to keep it for the queer communities did immediately make me go but what about all the straight polyamorous people (while not as common as queer polyam peeps definitely still a thing). So just a little reminder that partners in the polyamorous community are a thing, and also a way to make sure everyone feels valued without potential negative hierarchy labels like wife, husband, girlfriend, boyfriend, theyfriend, etc. 😊
My understanding with the sage is that it's fine to use if you've been gifted it, but not to gather it yourself (and esp not purchase it from non Indigenous). I'm Inuk so I can't speak on that with authority or anything though, it's just what I've gathered from seeing others speak on it. What I can speak on, though! I know Inuit are usually happy to share knowledge and culture and food, etc. Unfortunately, because of colonialism and generational trauma, I've been pretty severed from my culture. But even still, through family I've seen and experienced how sharing and giving our culture is. Which makes sense. Together we thrive. 💜💜
I know a lot of straight couples that are in long term committed relationships but not married and so I think that's where the use of partner outside the queer community came from. Like it's weird to say "this is my girlfriend" when you've been living together making a life together for 20 years. Very "their just the bestest of friends. Just such good friends who live together and sleep in the same bad" energy but for straights. So as far as I'm concerned anyone can use that one.
The reversing a complement reminded me of my mother who often did it inadvertently. My favourite was when a neighbour, who was attending a wedding, wore a very wide brimmed, floppy hat. My mother said to her, 'I love your hat.... I would be far too embarrassed to be seen out in public wearing it'. Luckily our neighbour had known my mother for many years and took the compliment as it was intended.
I think far too much outrage happens over things that often the community this ‘appropriation’ is from don’t even feel like it’s an issue. I think it all depends on whether you are uplifting that community or making fun of that community. Also, cultural things are sometimes taken as fact when there is more nuance to it. For example, a Japanese girl thought it was cultural appropriation for non Japanese girls to dress as a school girl with a tartan skirt but then Scottish people could say wearing tartan is appropriation of Scottish culture but then us Scots didn’t even invent tartan. There are a lot of things that are taken as of a culture when it didn’t even originate there. Or there are examples of it existing in cultures far away. Regarding smudging it is also part of other cultures or religions. Are you only allowed to eat food of your own culture? I have known partner to mean non married serious relationship regardless of sexual orientation for decades. Lastly, we can’t always know that someone isn’t of the culture you are assuming they’re appropriating. I am whiter than white but I’m also half Arab. When I wear traditional Arab dress someone might assume it’s cultural appropriation without knowing anything about me and just making assumptions on my looks. Our world exists as it does today because culture and knowledge is shared. Unless you are doing it to mock I don’t think it’s an issue. I would say there are some occasions where what you are wearing is only worn by people in that culture that earned the right to wear a thing. Like holy people only should wear it. In those circumstances yes it is disrespectful to wear such a thing but then again if another culture has had the same object as just a piece of clothing for anyone then it could be just a piece of clothing for anyone. All I’m trying to say is I don’t think it’s clear cut. I think it’s nuanced.
Hello. Viking Women wore/wear dreads. It's part of their culture. Over here in Wales, it's not uncommon to see both male and female have dreadlocks. As for smudging, it has different meanings around the world. Most Witches smudge, I'm a Male Witch which confuses people, but I don't use smudging in my Witchcraft. Great episode, Fulton needs to have his own microphone.
The care and keeping of you book behind Ashley has unlocked so many memories I thought I had locked away tightly lol Also, as a bi woman, I use partner in reference to my boyfriend because we’ve been together for nearly six years. We plan on staying together, we have a dog together, and we also plan on buying a house together. But neither of us care for marriage. So when I refer to him as my “boyfriend” it just doesn’t feel serious enough for what we have and plan on building together. But “partner” feels like it matched the level of commitment we have toward each other. Because it’s what we are, we’re life partners. I’m not against using “partner” as a filler until I find out someones preferred language. Kind of similar to the term “spouse” if I know someone is married, but don’t know who they’re married to. (Edit) I’ve also noticed people take me less seriously when I say “boyfriend” and that it has allowed some people to deny me of my bisexuality.
Ashley genuinely makes me cackle with laugher every time i watch any vids with her in, my fave pods atm are deffo Chosen Family and We're having gay sex. These people make my day
Gotta comment from outside of the American continent, dreads seem to only be a massive taboo in America. Don't forget the idea of appropriation has two parts: cause harm to a group for a thing, use said thing for yourself. In other continents there hasn't been the backlash of black people having dreads so there hasn't been "appropriation" when that style has been culturally appreciated by others
I wanted to comment cause it's something I've thought about for a while but have never really seen anyone else talk about. I am a white person with fairly thick hair and when traveling as an adolescent I had my hair done in cornrows. And I really wish it was something I could do in a way that was respectful and not appropriation because it really helped with my OCD. A lot of my obsession and compulsions are centered around my hair and not having to do my hair every day was such a relief. I'm also autistic with a lot of sensitivity to things touching my skin and having my hair pulled back in a way that was comfortable and not constantly tickling my skin was so helpful to me. It would make such a difference for my quality of daily life if I was able to do it. I liked cornrows not necessarily because of the aesthetic (although I do think they are beautiful) but because they would be practical and a disability accommodation for me.
Haha, the first part made me laugh so much. By the way, partner is very common in Australia for all romantic relationships, even some straight married couples here would call their significant other their partner. I think perhaps in UK too it is more common.
As someone with white dreads, I've only had other white people say anything about cultural appropriation.. I just had a whole conversation with a black dude at work about dreads and how we care for them. I've found that it's not really an issue. We were both curious and interested in each other's hair.
Yeah, but I embrace the word dreads. Since so many people think they are "dreadful". Because of the stigma about not being able to wash them, or the fact that it's matted up hair. To each their own.
The conversation on straight use of queer terms intrigues me as a 60yo. The reason myself and others of my ancient age the use of the plural pronouns was our heavy closet language so to hear it used now just instantly throws me back to the 1980-2000's fear of losing my job, friends, possibly life if I slipped and used other then plural pronouns to hide the choice of my non-work life etc.
Ok, i use "partner" a lot, and didn't even realise that is from queer culture. I heard it mamy times in English TV series/on internet. But funny thing is that i am from europe and in my language partner is a gendered word. I think i like using "partner" because it does make feel relationship dynamics more equal and volontary.
22:03 Ashley when I say I KNEWWWW as soon as you mentioned the episode of the other podcast with Jen exactly what comment you were about to read. I kid you not - when I saw that comment my jaw hit the floor. I hoped you wouldn’t see it but figured you’d be comment surfing for Jen compliments to forward/brag to her about. lol. I’m sorry the beep-boops struck again - good intentions or not.
So I’m straight and female and when I refer to my boyfriend I tend to say partner sometimes only because I find saying boyfriend makes it sound too casual Like this is my person I don’t like how the word boyfriend sounds like a casual dinner dates thing, like we live together and are in it for the long haul I hear boyfriend and girlfriend as like a casual thing sometimes but that may just be a me thing
I'm straight, white and not a native speaker of English. Regarding the word partner and the use of they/them if you don't know someone's gender, I thought it was coming from an intentional attempt to use neutral language. I thought it leaves space for people to correct you if they want to, without forcing a correction. Regarding the term chosen family, I didn't know that was something queercoded at all😮 interesting to hear
Some thoughts on use of incense to create smoke for ceremony - a quick google search indicates incense is used and has been used historically in Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, Christian, Catholic, and Islamic ceremony - not all ceremonies of all sects of all religions, but overall, looks like a lot of major world religions burn plant parts to create smoke during ceremony. Another thought - the word smudge does not specify what plant is being used - I have heard the term smudge stick used for bundles of many different plants - lavender, sage, cedar, rosemary, thyme, and so forth. Thanks for the info on concerns about over-harvesting of white sage - did not know that. As of a few years ago (haven’t checked recently), our local herb store carried white sage in bulk - though I live in an area with a high indigenous population, so don’t know if they are still carrying it.
As someone who is estranged from family I use the term chosen family to describe my friends who have replaced the family I have lost for different reasons x
I am a queer, white woman (35), and just wanted to share my experience and thoughts on the topic of LGBT / cultural appropriation. I think it’s a beautiful thing when the language / customs / perspective of one community start to permeate more communities and people, as it encourages people to embrace each other’s differences in ways of living rather than keeping a divide (this is MY culture, that is YOURS). I love that more people are using partner, as I feel gendered language isn’t necessary in taking about your significant other. And it describes a deeper level of commitment that is without explicitly disclosing if you are engaged, married, or neither. (Which I feel is also not necessary). I also love that more people are celebrating and embracing drag culture / queer culture in general, and I think as long as they are not doing it in a negative way, it’s just another beautiful community being accepted and loved! Lastly, I have spent a great deal of time traveling (28 countries… and most of the time CouchSurfing with locals). I was an avid dancer, so I often really enjoyed learning different dances and ways of expression. It often acted a a cultural bridge and a way for me to interact with the locals more intimately than just observing, just like learning the language did (I also speak 5 languages). Even when I returned to Canada, I continued to be accepted and integrated in various cultural communities through language and dance, even joining some Brazilian performance dance groups (one samba group and one Afro-Brazilian dance group). Anyway, I guess I’m just saying that there is usually more of a feeling of love and acceptance in blurring the lines of one specific community and culture. I really think it’s mostly white people who haven’t had these intimate experiences with other cultures that tend to discourage others from engaging in cultural things, and the people who are actually in these cultures tend to welcome others to share their experience. Just my thoughts ❤
Hey black gen z listener here !! In the past few years the definition of cultural appropriation has been massively skewed. Its in reality more defined by another majority group taking a minorty groups culture, redifining it and passing it off as their own for profit or praise. For example a couple years ago, cornrows (from black culture) were appropriated by the white media and renamed Bo Derek braids, resulting in white models and celebrities being praised by the media for the 'new' trendy hairstyle. This results in multiple frustrations for the minority community... 1) they get to witness the double standard in responses from society, e.g. white people being praised for braids and called stylish while black people are called unproffessional and unkempt dor the same hairstyles. 2) On a wider note, the community who the cultre originates from, recieve no recognition or credit and it is given unfairly to those who "stole" the culture. Nowadays people view cultural appropration as one white lady wearing dreads when in reality one white lady isnt doing all that harm and its on a wider scale when cultural appropraition becomes more apparent and harmful. Hope this helps 🤟
I'm not fond of saying "partner" much because it sounds so clinical to me, hahah, but I'm all for different kinds of people trying out the term for themselves. I know I myself borrow words from other communities and am grateful for it so I feel it would be stingy if I didn't do the same.
I am white and Irish so please take this with a grain of salt. But in pre-colonial Irish culture I know that we had a thing called “elflocks”. Basically these are modern day dreadlocks on the under layers of hair with hair out over it. I’m not saying this is what the girl was doing but she may be from an indigenous group or another culture that had similar traditions. I lived in Australia for a while and am friends with some aboriginal people, they have a saying that “no matter how much milk is in the coffee it’s still coffee” in relation to indigenous people having lighter skin due to colonialisation. I hope I didn’t say anything inappropriate or didn’t speak on behalf of people, if anyone had an issue with this please let me know.
I personally don't understand why dreads are appropriating Black culture because of exactly what u just explained. So many other groups of ppl used "dreads." Being mad at White ppl wearing dreads is also selective outrage.
To add to this: there is also records of what they think to be dreadlocks or similar to them in Crete, Egypt, India, Asia, Germania(Romans described their hair as “like snakes”), and similar in Norse cultures, as well as various African cultures. Dreadlocks have kind of just evolved in multiple cultures across history. They might have come into style in the US through one or two cultural groups, but they have found examples of them in Europe 2-3000 years ago, as well as everywhere else. Humans have had hair for so long, I think outside of specific niches, everyone has some claim to any hairstyle they can make their hair do
@@theembersinside1420 The reason as I understand it is that when Black folks (especially in the UK, Canada and the US) wear dreads, they are seen as being unprofessional or slovenly but when white people in the same locations do it they can be perceived as appropriate. So the double standard is a big issue there - relying on the racist stereotype that Black folks are not as "civilized" as white people. Additionally while I acknowledge that many cultures of European and other ancestry did use dread styling in their cultures, white folks of today wearing them aren't necessarily going "I'm connecting to my Celtic roots". They are just seeing a hairstyle they like and using it. I'm not sure what the right answer here (maybe there isn't one) but I hope this has added nuance to the conversation.
You touched on a really important topic at the end there, in relation to algorithms and information access. It’s not being talked about enough but we are entering an era of having the most access to information in human history, but a side effect of the savvy algorithms we’ve created to access all of it is actually causing people to lose access to information. You can start to notice this in younger Gen Z having sometimes never heard of really common movies, expressions, or older cultural events.
I'm still mid-watch but love that Ashley has "The Care and Keeping of You". I bought those for my daughter and it's made it way easier for her to talk to me about personal/puberty topics.
When the straights use partner it normalizes it. My gf doesn't need to out herself just by saying partner. Partner doesn't feel explicitly gay. The girls who say Girlfriends platonically THAT throws me. Partner is also good for if your partner starts exploring with gender but hasn't picked a label/ still identifys as cis, because you can respect their journey and help them without outting them in any way.
So a black girl from Antigua asked me a (pre-transition me) a white kid if I wanted her to do cornrows at camp back in 2006. I said sure. She said I was funny. I had them on for 4 days in England. There’s two photos of me with the cornrows. Was I appropriating? Of course not. I didn’t ask. She offered but if a person found it they’d claim I was appropriating and shouldn’t have done it without that context. Some would forget the time it happened. People don’t actually care about fixing real problems because how I style my hair is not solving real problems nor is it making fun of black people and black culture. Yet some would say I did cause more problems and start discourse which would say I was making fun of black people or appropriating their culture. A snapshot in time is only contextual for those that exist within the snapshot’s life at the time and people forget that. We are so traumatized we look for safety and threat but that is damaging connection, nuance, and empathy out of vulnerability when we need to give more people empathy like we would wish to receive. This is why I left a queer support group due to deliberate misrepresentation of statements I made and ignoring what I said for what they believed I said rather than what I said. Being wrong is fine but this bad faith behavior out of fear of threat is not. When things are done out of malice it’s fine to correct and be offended then but when it’s not, just take a breath. There are plenty of actual problems in this world to get upset about and focus on informing others or fighting to change to make the world a better place
Calling my boyfriend "partner" just feels more mature in some way. Like boyfriend feels like I'm still a teenager or something. I'm also bi and I don't like to appear straight lol
As a cis straight married man, I prefer using partner to refer to my wife cause I feel "wife" can have patriarchal and traditional values that I don't agree with. Plus I feel it helps others in queer relationships feel included. Interesting to hear that it can be controversial!
I am a straight male boomer who grew up in the 50s, 60s, and Early 70s. I was also considered a hippie and would get trashed on for that reason. Keeping in mind that the sexual revolution was in full swing during the 60s and 70s, the use of partner was used by many people because that was the most appropriate word for their relationship. There’s no reason to stop using it for that purpose. On the use of they/them, that has always been used for unknown, indeterminate, or mixed gender. Unfortunately, it has always been used as a way to differentiate us from them. This in a way enforces our differences instead of embracing our humanity. I understand the reasons for wanting a non-gender pronoun, and “it” is not the way to go, but the language has baggage with negative connotations that we haven’t outgrown. I don’t know the answer to this, but hopefully we will all evolve into a more accepting society.
I've definitely seen some responses by Black creators ripping into that musician for the dreads as well as apparently just ripping her style whole cloth from a Black musician, and Native creators for her appropriation of smudging and other stuff (she has a what appears to be a mass produced dreamcatcher hanging in her car, and tattoos that are straight ripped from Indigenous people). It's a big conversation to have too, especially since appreciation and appropriation get easily confused a lot by both sides of the debate; you also have things like sage cleansing being used by Celtic peoples and Gauls pre-Roman invasion, but white sage and smudging being specific to certain Native American groups, and some of them being fine with people using smudging and white sage as long as they are doing it respectfully and not buying from White people who are stealing the plant from tribal lands, causing the shortage in the first place.
As an older viewer, I associate dreads with Rastafarians rather than black culture. In turn, I see that as mainly Jamaican. Having met white Jamaicans who grew up in that society sporting dreads, are they appropriating?I Cultural crossover, done in good faith, should be encouraged. Maybe the more you throw in the melting pot the less prejudices will arise?
As a Millennial, I feel like "Chosen Family", is a very millennial thing to say. Most of us, don't have great relationships with our families. We all just refer to our friend groups as our "chosen family", because that's just how we treat them and what they are to us. Partner, I feel like it's mostly used in poly relationships. At least I've not heard it used outside of that context when it comes to cis-het relationships. Then again I've only ever seen/heard the word partner on the internet, and not IRL. Then again, here, people are just open about that sort of thing. They will just say "Oh yeah, that's my bf/gf/wife/husband", and nobody makes a big deal about it. You might at worst get an odd look followed by an "oh.. okay", but nobody is dumb/rude enough to actually say something. On "appropriation"; context matters. The context is: did they do the thing with the intention of making fun of it, or did they do it because they like it? if it's the latter, then they're fine. If the former, THEN it's appropriation. If no harm is actually being done, there's just no there, there. This "Appreciation vs Appropriation" model seems to be the globally accepted reference point. The majority seems to agree that the idea of merely using something is appropriation by default is just xenophobic nonsense and should be ignored. People genuinely want to share their culture with others that enjoy it. Those that don't, are a severely small, albeit extremely vocal, minority. Personally, I think it's one of those phrases that gets misused so frequently that we should just toss it in the bin, as it's effectively meaningless now. It's kind of a net negative at this point, and people just use it to manufacture fake outrage. Also, we're white, we steal things we like, that's just what we do... ask the British Museum. 🤣 Also, lets appreciate that Ashley put in all that effort at 10:00, to keep the conversation PG for the sake of monetization, and Alayna and Mak tried so hard to get her to say the word that might ruin it.
On the topic of "chosen family" being used by non-queer folk - in a recent conversation with my grandfather (the man who married my dad's mom), he described our family as his chosen family, and my mother agreed about my dad's side of the family as her chosen family too, because they both had complicated/toxic/dramatic families growing up and get a lot out of now being part of the more wholesome and healthy family dynamics of my dad and his mom's side fo the family (Also shout-out to my dad's side of the family, there's all great and supportive and open-minded and just generally cool people)
(originally made one big comment, but splitting this off since it's a separate topic) I also default to "they/them" for everyone who hasn't told me otherwise, even if I can venture a guess that they are cis I guess this is my take on defaulting to "they" and I'd be happy to hear if others think this is inconsiderate/a bad way to think of it: By defaulting to "they," I am choosing a completely gender-neutral term until I've been told they go by something else (or do people view "they" as specifically a non-binary term that implies a non-binary identity? I just think of it as non-gendered overall.) When people default to "he" or "she" based on appearance, they are making assumptions based on social conventions and their perception of how others fit into that, and also continue to push a gender binary even if they'd be an ally if you told them you're enby. Defaulting to "they" isn't so much an assumption about the person as it is specifically NOT assuming anything until told otherwise
I think something that got conflated in this episode was gender identity and pronouns. As a nonbinary person who uses they/them pronouns, I don't think of myself "identifying" as using they/them pronouns. I use the pronouns that feel the best for me and most align with my identity. I would definitely agree that using they/them before you know someone's pronouns is something great for exactly the reasons you stated. It helps to undo the assumptions we make about people based on their gender expression, and also helps to validate and make space for those whose identities are different than what we might've assumed just by looking at them. Also, it makes me so upset when someone says that "they" is automatically associated with a nonbinary identity. Anyone can use whatever pronouns feel best for them. Someone who absolutely identifies as a cis man can use they/them pronouns if that's what feels best for them! Just like how someone named Robert might go by Bob because that's what feels best for them!
About the cultural appropriation, have you seen the clip of the white guy dressing as a cartoon mexican, with a big sombrero and a poncho and a fake mustache, walking trough a university campus, then in the same outfit going to a really mexican neighbourhood... The students were outraged, and the mexicans loved it. I worked with a white guy, borned and raised in africa, who got attacked for wearing an traditional african bracelet, he replyed in Swahili that it was made for him by his african "mother" (stepmom) and that he really liked to carry that memory of her. AS LONG AS IT IS NOT DONE WITH BAD INTENT it is good that we share our cultures around, maybe we like similar things because we are more similar than we think? On that note, I'm a guy, an old one too, and I have come to appreciate all kinds of female bodys with age, sure big boobs and butts are "outstanding features of the female anatomy" but I like the girls in the "itty bitty comitty" too, and I don't even care about someones body type in the search for a partner, i don't care about the size of their dangly bits at all
Okay, I'm not native, but I've done a decent amount of research into this (I've been a pagan since the early 2000s, my mom has been a new age hippie since before I was born, and one of my obsessions is ancient religions and traditions) and since I'm not seeing it in the comments yet, I'm going to step in. If anyone who is actually native has any corrections PLEASE add them because, like I said, this is just from what I've read and heard, so there's entirely a chance I'll say something wrong in all this. But anyways, here's the thing about smudging. First off, please please remember that not all indigenous nations are the same. There's some over lap between some of them, yes, but the Navajo don't have the same traditions as the Ojibwe, just like the Blackfeet don't have the same traditions as the Coushatta. They're different groups of people with different traditions. That out of the way, indigenous nations are not the only cultures to use smoke based cleansing rituals and not all nation's smoke based rituals are going to look the same. Even the use of the word "smudging" and herbs/woods used are going to be different. Not all nations use sage in their smoke cleansing rituals. The problem with white sage in particular is that it's not a very wide spread plant and only really grows in and around southern California. So, when new age groups and white pagans began to misappropriate it, the commercial harvesters were going to traditionally Native harvesting sites and wiping out the area, some even pulling whole plants up by the roots. It's not endangered yet (as far as I know), but it's gotten close. So, if you're not Native and you're really connected to smoke cleansing, look into what herbs/woods were sacred for your ancestors or the culture your practice originates from or even just where you live. Also, look into saining if you're Irish/Scottish or follow a Celtic/druidic practice. I don't believe there's a traditional Norse smoke cleansing ritual, but I have come across a few people using the words "rēcaning", "reykja", or "reykr" in place of "smudging".
Is "saining" the correct term to research? I started "smudging", as it was called then, in the 90s exploring my Irish Wiccan roots (pre internet, so harder to find info like this stuff then, mostly relied on books and metaphysical shop keepers). I had no idea it was linked to Native indigenous cultures, then, nor that since then the explosion of sage for commerce has put the plant on the threatened list. There are a lot of plants used in meditations and rituals that are on the threatened or endangered groups, like Palo Santo. Which is why I feel like we should not be socially using plants that are threatened, whether fresh, dried, or essential oils P.S. thanks for your helpful comment.
Surprised by the lack of Indigenous people stepping in. As an Indigenous person (and obvs disclaimer that I’m not every Indigenous person lol) it’s 100% about the commercialization of it. For one, I do think white witches have plenty of their own pagan/spiritual/etc traditions and medicine to pull from, and it comes off as questionable for witches to need to use medicine Native to the Americas. But also, people should be free to use plants responsibly if they wish to. However, living in a very liberal area, I see white women all the time SELLING white sage in their witch booths at festivals or at their boutiques. And this I do find deeply problematic because now it is not a matter of using a practice and appreciating it’s medicine, it’s taking a practice and plant that is not yours and profiting off of it, when historically Indigenous people have had these practices stripped from them. I cannot emphasize how many times I’ve seen white sage in a store window or on a white womans booth along with crystals and potions, and I do think that is what the majority of Indigenous people are upset by. It’s distasteful. Growing white sage as a native plant in your garden: 100% awesome go for it Using white sage as part of your spiritual practice in your own home: Love it, do it if you want Selling white sage: No. Buying white sage from a white woman: no Paying a white woman to teach you how to use white sage/teaching and monetizing from teaching other people how to use white sage: absolutely not I feel like those nuances and big differences are important lol.
I think Ashley’s comment about algorithms is key to the outrage. Much as I’d like to think everyone understands about the appropriation of black hair styles I don’t think ppl do. specially if they live in predominantly white areas.
18:20 as a hijabi lesbian I'm loving this bc not many get to see me without my hijab and such.. lol also guys I really appreciate this pod (and Ashley's other pod) ugh seriously thank u 🩶
Hello just popping in to say that I'm LOVING the conversation happening in the comments. Thank you for all your thoughtful responses 💕
hey mom
As one of the 6 non white listeners here (black female) who actually has locs in my hair, I’d just like to say personally I don’t mind if other races beside mines have locs. Just be mindful that my people til this day still get prosecuted for what society thinks is “cool” and “trendy” on you but on us it’s deemed as dirty and unkempt. Tbh most black people I know don’t care how anyone wears their hair, we just wanna be treated equally and left alone so we can live our beautiful black lives in peace!! ❤️
This is what I have heard for the most part about white peoples using other cultures hair styles that it’s totally fine and most people don’t mind
That being said you bring up a good point with how it is perceived on different people which is where the issue really is I think
I’m also a non white listener and I totally agree. Leave us alone and let us just be.
I was gonna say its locs, not dreads.
Yall are right but as a person from the south, Family is from the Caribbean, a lot of those types of people don't like to see other races with locs. I did not like to see it myself because when I travel, I've lived in a few countries all over, there is always this negative stereotype or false narrative about the process of achieving locs and maintaining them because people want to have that look. So from that, a lot of the onus is dropped on us because our hair is most adapted for it and we are seem as dirty or hooligans that don't maintain our hair. Now I've come to not care as much, I've had locs for like 6 years and if you want all that responsibility with your hair, take it on. Locs in my mind now has separated its self from like box brains and cornrows.
All in all, yes we woukd like to be left out of other people's perceptions of what other races and ethnicities do to achieve our things.
locs and like dreads and stuff actually look like so cool idk how they would be dirty or unkempt.
I'm indian and i love it when my culture is represented outside my country, as long as it isn't done in a mocking way. honestly sometimes hearing white people get offended on our behalf comes across as arrogant because it's not what most of us believe, and it can seem like we're being talked over
Black guy here. 35 years old next month. We're not a monolith and I'm not the Black ambassador, but I say let people do whatever they want with their own bodies. If you look for it online, you'll find strong opinions either way. Bear in mind these very loud people are the vocal minority (no pun intended), and I imagine most of us are more concerned with bills, our loved ones, our health and safety than cultural appropriation. But again, I'm not the ambassador.
Yeah, I wouldn't say the vocalized disdain is in the minority when it comes to online and real-life community settings of this topic in different generations, said as a black person . But I do agree with the rest of your point.
As a straight person I use partner because we cannot assume people are married so wife/husband may not be appropriate.
Yeah I had a professor who was in his 70s, seemed pretty homophobic tbh, and he used partner because he wasn't married to his girlfriend but he thought girlfriend sounded childish and too unserious for his taste. Lots of people use partner or life partner because they're not married, but are in a very serious monogamous relationship.
I also like partner because if everyone is using it, it's safer for queer people to talk about their partner without someone being like "wait, why didn't they say wife/husband?" The more normalized it is, the better it is for the community imo.
I am in straight passing relationship. I cross female in forms and they crosses male...but we both are somewhat indifferent/fluid about our gender. We regularly have the gender talk discussing about how we feel about our gender. Already, when we started dating they asked if I was ok with them using term 'girlfriend' about me. 🥰They asked this, because they did not want to misgender me.
It feels better to use term partner, because then I am not accidentally misgendering them (in our language pronouns are not gendered, so this is basically only way I could misgender them). Also, it is more formal for unmarried couple. Also, I don't feel good about fiancee eather, because I don't want to put marrige on a pedastal.
I believe they were speaking about straight people using partner in reference to their significant other & not someone else’s.
@@d3ndr0ph1l3, yes sure. However, at least in my relationship many outside people would not know about our gender jorney. They would likely think, we are just an other straight couple using term partner...especially in native language, where pronouns are genderless.
As a bi, 26-year-old Mexican woman, I have shared my traditions with friends from other cultures like creating an Altar to celebrate Day of the Dead. I am happy when they take on that tradition in a respectful and traditional way. However, what makes me upset is when people appropriate these traditions and they haven't had those conversations with people from that community. But I am only one person and don't speak for all Mexicans, just my opinion.
The conversation about cultural appropriation is so frustrating and exhausting as a black women I think we don’t care as much about who’s wearing what it’s just the fact that we get penalized and disenfranchised for wearing hairstyles created by us for us but others can wear it and profit from it or even wear it to humiliate us and profit or get recognition. The credit is never given to us and the significance it is for us is oversimplified to the general public .
I don't think "Partner" is gay thing, at least outside of the US maybe? As a Brit, my parents used 'partner' because they weren't married, but they were also adults and felt weird saying 'boyfriend/girlfriend' when they're like 45. Might just be a language thing, like Americans saying 'school' to mean 'any education', whereas we'd only use school for school, and specify college, university etc beyond that.
Another Brit who was also confused by the partner thing because I’ve seen it used for ages. My brothers been with his partner for years now and they have 2 kids and everyone just refers to them as X/Ys partner because calling them X or Ys girlfriend/boyfriend just feels too childish
My parents were the same way. They've always said partner
I also use the equivalent of partner in French and German to talk about my life partner as we're not married, but are over thirty with a child. Boyfriend just doesn't sound right to me.
I’m so glad that I can listen to this podcast now that it’s a religion based podcast. What a cool vibe with each of the 3 members representing the father son and Holy Spirit.
🤣🤣🤣 you have greatess comment love you.
Oh my god, they NEED to see this comment 😂😂😂😂
😂😂😂😂 love it!!
This is my favorite beep boop out there. Made me laugh so hard.
Pew pew magic
I'm a 60 year old cis het male who has been in a relationaship with the same woman for 35 years, though we never got married. We've been using "partner" for 30+ years because it is the best fit for us. It has nothing to do with appropriation and everything to do with "significant other" sounding dumb and "boyfriend/girlfriend" sounding ridiculous for two adults (and obviously husband/wife doesn't fit either).
''It makes me homophobic to see two adults behaving as teenagers'' - Ashley Gavin on adult gay pda
d e a d 💀🤣
Scuse you. PGGAY
@@brodysstoryrescuehouse8205 i fucked up, i formally apologise
I am an Indian Hindu and personally, I don’t mind people sharing my culture or my religion, as long as they’re genuinely trying to learn and enjoy it. I’ve also grown up around Indians and they were always proud and more than happy to teach others about us
I appreciate hearing from you. I was just sitting here wondering about yoga, meditation, and Ayurveda being brought to the West and wondering how people who share the cultures from which they originate feel about that.
hey, im also indian and i was raised hindu! i completely agree
I would say the same thing about Latinoamerica, as long as you are respectful and really appreciating the culture, it’s fine. I think that sometimes people in the USA are really sensitive about this culture appropiation, (more than the people in the actual culture being “appropiated”).
We need someone single on this podcast cos us lonely lesbians need some relatability not this cute, lovey dovey, happy shit ahhahahahahahahahhahah (this is a joke 💀)
Strewth!
They’re so mushy and gross! (And I can’t get enough of these three❤)
Y’all, singular they/them is not exclusive to nonbinary people. They/them have been singular use words for hundreds of years when the gender is unknown. You’re making a nonspecific term into a declarative. If you’re uncertain, use they/them. I think if people get angered about neutral language, then that is a personal choice to not fall into the default, but should not dictate a systematic change to language
On the language thing, I came out to my immigrant family recently, and they have started to use the word ‘partner’ to refer to my future girlfriend. They used to say husband/boyfriend. I don’t think they can bring themselves to say wife/girlfriend but partner is a good start!
my creative consultant and trusted advisor (gf) pointed out something I wanted to flag bc I can't believe non of us thought of it, its a possibility that the terms were just filter out of the persons comments manually! just wanted to highlight this for the discourse because it's very possible.
That would actually make a lot of sense! A lot of people delete their hate comments, so that's probably what that person was doing
as a Slovak/Central-Eastern European, the cultural talk felt very distant from my experience - for instance the dreads or the "they/them" usage... I specifically remember my high school English teacher (this was almost 10 years ago and the teacher was about to retire) getting annoyed when students were using "he/she" in essays or in conversations, she would always argue that substituting it with "they" was a better/more elegant solution 😀
Yeah I don't specifically remember someone saying to use one over the other but I do know that it has always been very normal and seemingly standard to use "they" instead of saying "he/she" because it's just.... easier? It's easier to type, it's easier to read, it's not bulky and weird. Singular "they" has always been a thing. I've read that it actually predates the use of singular "you." Everyone uses "they" in the singular sense without even thinking about it. The only reason people are now upset by it is because they associate it with trans/nonbinary people. People are asking them to intentionally do something they've always done in order to respect their identity and now they're upset.
Edit: I am Canadian
Interestingly, I remember my high school English teacher telling us to use “he or she” rather than they/them pronouns because it was “more proper” but it didn’t make any sense to me. And this would’ve only been like 5 years ago (also I’m American)
I'm in my 40s and I've grown up with people using partner as the default. I remember thinking it was weird that adults in American tv shows would call the person who they lived with and had children with their 'boyfriend/girlfriend'
Same!
interesting! where are you from?
ditto. canadian here and it's been the norm my whole life for straight people to use partner. especially those who chose not to get married.
on the butt convo: i’m more masc and my girlfriend is more femme and she puts her hand in my back pocket and grabs my butt all the time.
I feel like this is pretty typical of relationships with a "masc" and "femme" counterpart because in most straight relationships the girl grabs and smacks the guys ass SO MUCH! And my boyfriend is more masc than I am and I'm CONSTANTLY smacking and grabbing his butt 😂😂😂😂
I've only recently come out as bi, but have been using the term "partner" for my straight husband, for about 7 years now and that was because I thought I was being more inclusive by saying it. My previous organization had a LOT of trainings around inclusivity where they encourage everyone (no matter your sexuality) to use the term "partner" when referring to your relationship(s). The thinking is that people who may be closeted at work can be their true selves around those folks; I look at it as an easy way to let someone know that this is a safe space/that you are safe to be your most authentic self around me.
Wow I am going to be honest and say that I really don't agree with that ideology around saying "partner" to signal that someone could be safe with you. (I don't mean you, specifically, but just in general). I had a colleague a few years ago who wore a rainbow watch, and mentioned it to me once, saying she wanted students to know they were safe with her. Only a few sentences later, she was trying to talk about a former student, and completely messing up their pronouns and making it clear she had NO IDEA what she was talking about. It very much feels like virtue signaling and feels super performative, rather than actually helpful in any way. I would so much rather someone try to normalize queerness by talking about queerness than use the word "partner" for every straight couple they know.
@@alisontippett2618 I honestly agree with you. I even have some cis-het friends who I love dearly, but who I, as a queer person, wouldn't consider a "safe space/person" for those exact same reasons. I've just been in one too many conversations with them that just forced me to remember, "Oh, yeah, you're not queer. You're just not going to get it." Like they all ignored the discomfort of both of their trans friends and non-binary friend and not only bought, but fawned over the Harry Potter game. They kept asking myself (bisexual) and my sister (trans) if we were going to play it even after all the discourse with this undertone of "are you going to be one of those queer people?" They even tried to tell us, "it's so inclusive because there's a trans character and a lesbian character" even though both of those representations offended me even just from the description of them. And then with the release of Red, White, and Royal Blue, one friend had us all read the book so we could watch the movie with her, and despite the strong anti bi-erasure throughout both and two of us being bi the cis-het friends still continued to call it a "gay movie" and a "gay romance" and kept referring to the bi character as gay even as we tried to gently push and hint to them using the right wording. By the end of it I was just like, y'all really aren't listening are y'all? It's not enough to just wave a rainbow flag and co-opt the language, you have to listen to what we're saying. Applying queer terms to straight people just gives them more ways to be a surface level ally without actually listening to us.
with cultural appropriation I feel the selective outrage that Ashley mentioned is so true and there is also a fickleness to it, to be honest I feel countries like the UK, USA & Canada get too caught up in it all whereas a lot other people from other countries (like me) see it is as creating problems (overthinking) and that someone enjoying a certain practice, clothing, hairstyle typical of a certain culture is not the end of the world and actually react really positive to someone engaging with cultures other than their own. Choose to be happy, expending unnecessary energy trying to police people is not the one!
You are so right ! I'm Canadien but from Quebec (wich is very different from the rest ) and we don't have, as much as english speeking ppl, those policing piliticly correct battle. I think it come a lot from USA media who saddly feed most of the content on tv and movie all around the world. And I would had to it that less human have stuggle with the basic (shelter, food, health) more they seek for battle. It's how our brain are trained from those cave days survival that need to fight for something, saddly only few choose the right batle like climat change, peace, food for evryone, migrant criss etc etc.
i love how their faces just light up when they talk abt their girlfriends:))
I think we should talk more about there being a difference between cultural appropriation and cultural appreciation. If someone’s doing something carelessly and because they think it’s cool or trendy and they don’t have any respect for where it comes from or how it originated, that’s bad imo. But if they want to learn more, if they talk about it with others in a positive light and give respect to where it came from, good on them
Okay I ended up a little gay babe, but when I was dating a man I developed epilepsy and was in and out of the hospital a lot before I was officially diagnosed. When I said boyfriend they wouldn’t let him in the room with me because he wasn’t family and we weren’t married. We noticed when we switched to partner he was allowed back! Shitty circumstances but it worked.
In general, I hate that rule. If you're in a relationship with someone and they're in the hospital, what does it matter if you're married or how long you've been dating? It's semantics at this point. Whether I've been dating someone for a year or 10 years, if they end up in the hospital, I'm going to want to see them to make sure they're okay.
@@raven_moonshine39Yes. Naturally. But that does not mean you have a legal relationship with your person. Hospitals have to concern themselves with the legalities. If you want your person to have medical power of attorney, that’s something you can do. Probably should do if you don’t want your next of kin to be making choices for you in the event that you aren’t capable.
This is the reason I told my BFF to say I'm her sister if I end up in the hospital, like from a car crash and I'm unconscious. My actual family is all only half relations (not full blood) and live in another state. They're too far away to be doing anything helpful, and know so little about me I wouldn't trust their judgement. Whereas my friend knows more about my medical conditions than they do, and would actually be comforting and advocate for me.
The tricky is that I'm whiter than white and Gen X, and she's mixed race and Milennial. So our story is same dad, different mothers, dad met my mom first (bc each of our mothers was abusive and we don't want to out the lie by saying something about "mom" that is contradictory, while we had generally good relationships with our respective fathers.)
We refer to each other as family and I get her kids bday and Xmas gifts and attend family functions, so it really is a chosen family situation. And I don't see why I should be left alone in a hospital, with no one for comfort and no one to advocate for me just bc our family is chosen and not biological.
And on the subject of the term, straight peeps was using "chosen family" back in the 90s, to differentiate between blood family, from whom they were estranged.
On the „partner“ convo:
In German it’s the other way around in a way. Since „girlfriend“ and „friend“ are the same word you usually only assume that two people are in a relationship if they are of opposite genders when the term „girlfriend“ is used. Partner on the other hand is a gendered term that makes it very clear to everyone that those two people are in a relationship.
By using „partner“ you achieve the opposite, you intentionally out yourself.
Funnily that term is also spreading through the straight ally community just like it is in English.
Freundin oder Freundin?
omg what is the german word for partner? im studying german and as a lesbian i would like to know thank you xx
Lebensgefährt/e:innen
Oder einfach partnerin
I think the equivalent of using of "partner" in English would be using "Beziehungsperson" as a default in German. As an enby I would feel a bit weird about that as well, yet I see the point that it is good to neutralise our language in terms of gender.
My friends and I (for context: all 22, 1 white man, 1 white woman and 2 black women (one of whom is me)) were literally talking about cultural appropriation through hair at the dinner table the other day. Someone expressed an interest in getting dreads. We spoke about arguments for both sides, Nordic traditions, bad connotations, different religions, loads of stuff. It’s totally still a thing don’t know why no one would have flagged that in the comments of that TikTok. 🖤
politely, as a norse-scots person with an MA in the era of our history they try to pull the 'nordic traditions' from, there aren't any. vikings weren't running around with locs and those of us who actually have that as our lived culture are largely fairly offended that it's being used by folk to justify them not listening to people of colour. those same people don't know anything about our real cultures and have no interest in learning. i know you probably know this anyway, but please have no fear in telling that white dude to shut up :D
I just think it’s such a weird thing to say any one group takes cultural ownership of tangled hair. Like it’s a thing that popped up in different cultures around the world. I don’t see how it benefits anyone to fight over who is allowed to have intentionally tangled hair.
I feel like she had the word dreads, locs, etc blocked for her comments?
Alongside selective outrage I think there's also an issue of self-indulgent outrage, where it is neither thought through, constructive nor effective. Limited thought is given to the act being critiqued, its consequences and complexities. Rather it's the popularity of outrage that prompts critique (especially in comment sections).
My personal approach to sensitive/controversial topics is to reflect on if I'm either inflicting or promoting harm (in a very broad sense), do my actions uphold or dismantle structures of inequality, and to always be looking to learn.
I think that's very healthy, recognition of your former point & practicing of the latter. I was typing a response to someone else & came to realize their statements were so broad that it would be hard to offer an alternate perspective when it's an alternate to smthg like saying "outrage culture is too much." Like ok, but there are all these things to consider... and I think you got it, that if everybody was just thinking about those kinds of elements, context, their own place in the system that relate to potential harm or reductionism, we could deescalate from policing in an outrage way to informing or just bringing up for someone's consideration. Bc once they know, once they have the information, how they behave is then up to them & if folks treat them some kind of way, then it's due to a choice they made when they had the information & that's a matter of consequences.
And I did question myself as to why I was responding to that person - was I being "self-indulgent"? To make myself feel like a "good ally" for protecting cultural practices? But then again, I find it hard to assess that sometimes, whether my words or actions are disproportionate or take things "too seriously". (Thanks, neurodivergence.) Since the person acknowledged that aspect of "as long as you're not causing harm," it felt like the rest was me trying to extrapolate on how we don't always recognize the harm we could cause... which could be an essay. Idk. It feels like if prominent culture didn't stoke defensiveness, we would see more people "learning their lesson" from a mistake & moving forward accordingly.
I'm bi and I feel the same way about my boyfriend as Alayna and Ashley are describing in their relationships. He comes off as very monotone and somewhat stoic to people who don't know him but dating him I know he is the goofiest and sweetest person. He's so cuddly and cute. Like he lays his head on my shoulder and cuddles into me more than I do him and I LOVE IT. I get sad sometimes that other people misunderstand him and it's not uncommon that I'm telling people he's joking or that he's not mad. He just struggles to show his emotions to most people. But I also enjoy that I know who he really is because he feels safe and comfortable to be his soppy, sweet, silly self around me
As an Indian woman, I'm also quite confused about the matter or what appropriation is and is not, but from what I've observed it sort of just varies based on what it is that is being spoken about. Indians love it when foreigners wear saris (a traditional clothing) or put bindis on (a kind of accessory) because we are quite secure in our culture, but with things like black language or dreads, because they have been discriminated against because of that very culture, appropriating it or using it seems a little bit like we're not acknowledging the pain or context behind it and so I don't think it's as black and white a matter. It truly varies from situation to situation.
As a bisexual woman I (also) use the term partner to let other people know that i am indeed fucking queer while i am in a straight passing relationship!!
Ashley's cat is determined to change this camera angle 😂😂😂
White people can have dreads, appropriation is more complicated than wanting a hair style you like. I’m black and if I get locs its gonna be because I like the style nothing deeper just because I’m black, you know what I mean? And one time at a job I had my boss tell me her son had dreads (white) and said she didn’t understand all the hubbub about it and looked at me like I was supposed to explain it to her or how that’s appropriation. And that’s what annoys me the most honestly, that everyone’s so sensitive. If I want to move to another country, learn the language, and submerse myself in the culture, it seems a high possibility I’d get prosecuted for it? It’s obvious when something is appropriation or inappropriate or racist in my opinion and I hate how sensitive people are about it these days. You end up too far another way, like ‘so we aren’t mad about white dreads anymore?’ I don’t know, *are you?* Literally just shows a lot of people don’t even know what they’re upset about…
when mak said “it’s truly fantastic” in her country accent👑😭
I use partner because I'm bi and I don't want to be bi-erased by biphobes and ignorant people every time I mention I'm dating a man
^this this this
Yes! Honestly, I've only ever felt the most comfortable with partner being applied to bi and nonbinary people because it's so easy for our orientation/gender to be erased. And it doesn't matter who you're dating, you're going to get erased by someone, so I've always loved "partner" as a big neon sign that says I exist outside of your binary.
As a millenial who partied a lot as a youth, we used the term Chosen Family to refer to our close friends who understood us more than our actual family and lets face it - took a lot of drugs to escape trauma. Fairly sure we took it from the Human Tráffic quote "I'm going to never never land with my chosen family". But I only just realised that the correlation between the ecstacy/party scene and queer culture is definitely where this came from! ❤
I was going to say this. I grew up with at risk, homeless, addicted/party kids and we were a chosen family for real.
Okay so I’m queer af, trans masc nonbinary, but I’m also polyamorous and hang out within that community a lot. 27:42 this discussion on the term partner and kind wanting to keep it for the queer communities did immediately make me go but what about all the straight polyamorous people (while not as common as queer polyam peeps definitely still a thing). So just a little reminder that partners in the polyamorous community are a thing, and also a way to make sure everyone feels valued without potential negative hierarchy labels like wife, husband, girlfriend, boyfriend, theyfriend, etc. 😊
My understanding with the sage is that it's fine to use if you've been gifted it, but not to gather it yourself (and esp not purchase it from non Indigenous). I'm Inuk so I can't speak on that with authority or anything though, it's just what I've gathered from seeing others speak on it.
What I can speak on, though! I know Inuit are usually happy to share knowledge and culture and food, etc. Unfortunately, because of colonialism and generational trauma, I've been pretty severed from my culture. But even still, through family I've seen and experienced how sharing and giving our culture is. Which makes sense. Together we thrive. 💜💜
I know a lot of straight couples that are in long term committed relationships but not married and so I think that's where the use of partner outside the queer community came from. Like it's weird to say "this is my girlfriend" when you've been living together making a life together for 20 years.
Very "their just the bestest of friends. Just such good friends who live together and sleep in the same bad" energy but for straights. So as far as I'm concerned anyone can use that one.
The reversing a complement reminded me of my mother who often did it inadvertently. My favourite was when a neighbour, who was attending a wedding, wore a very wide brimmed, floppy hat. My mother said to her, 'I love your hat.... I would be far too embarrassed to be seen out in public wearing it'.
Luckily our neighbour had known my mother for many years and took the compliment as it was intended.
I love this crazy family!
Elana: "ooo, it just gets worse and worse!" (All while nervously laughing)
As a masc with an ass I love this part of the episode lmao. Love having y’all be a part of my week
I think far too much outrage happens over things that often the community this ‘appropriation’ is from don’t even feel like it’s an issue. I think it all depends on whether you are uplifting that community or making fun of that community. Also, cultural things are sometimes taken as fact when there is more nuance to it. For example, a Japanese girl thought it was cultural appropriation for non Japanese girls to dress as a school girl with a tartan skirt but then Scottish people could say wearing tartan is appropriation of Scottish culture but then us Scots didn’t even invent tartan. There are a lot of things that are taken as of a culture when it didn’t even originate there. Or there are examples of it existing in cultures far away. Regarding smudging it is also part of other cultures or religions. Are you only allowed to eat food of your own culture?
I have known partner to mean non married serious relationship regardless of sexual orientation for decades.
Lastly, we can’t always know that someone isn’t of the culture you are assuming they’re appropriating. I am whiter than white but I’m also half Arab. When I wear traditional Arab dress someone might assume it’s cultural appropriation without knowing anything about me and just making assumptions on my looks. Our world exists as it does today because culture and knowledge is shared. Unless you are doing it to mock I don’t think it’s an issue. I would say there are some occasions where what you are wearing is only worn by people in that culture that earned the right to wear a thing. Like holy people only should wear it. In those circumstances yes it is disrespectful to wear such a thing but then again if another culture has had the same object as just a piece of clothing for anyone then it could be just a piece of clothing for anyone. All I’m trying to say is I don’t think it’s clear cut. I think it’s nuanced.
Man’s Fulton impersonation was epic! 😂
Hello.
Viking Women wore/wear dreads. It's part of their culture.
Over here in Wales, it's not uncommon to see both male and female have dreadlocks.
As for smudging, it has different meanings around the world. Most Witches smudge, I'm a Male Witch which confuses people, but I don't use smudging in my Witchcraft.
Great episode, Fulton needs to have his own microphone.
The care and keeping of you book behind Ashley has unlocked so many memories I thought I had locked away tightly lol
Also, as a bi woman, I use partner in reference to my boyfriend because we’ve been together for nearly six years. We plan on staying together, we have a dog together, and we also plan on buying a house together. But neither of us care for marriage. So when I refer to him as my “boyfriend” it just doesn’t feel serious enough for what we have and plan on building together. But “partner” feels like it matched the level of commitment we have toward each other. Because it’s what we are, we’re life partners. I’m not against using “partner” as a filler until I find out someones preferred language. Kind of similar to the term “spouse” if I know someone is married, but don’t know who they’re married to.
(Edit) I’ve also noticed people take me less seriously when I say “boyfriend” and that it has allowed some people to deny me of my bisexuality.
Ashley genuinely makes me cackle with laugher every time i watch any vids with her in, my fave pods atm are deffo Chosen Family and We're having gay sex. These people make my day
Gotta comment from outside of the American continent, dreads seem to only be a massive taboo in America. Don't forget the idea of appropriation has two parts: cause harm to a group for a thing, use said thing for yourself.
In other continents there hasn't been the backlash of black people having dreads so there hasn't been "appropriation" when that style has been culturally appreciated by others
I wanted to comment cause it's something I've thought about for a while but have never really seen anyone else talk about. I am a white person with fairly thick hair and when traveling as an adolescent I had my hair done in cornrows. And I really wish it was something I could do in a way that was respectful and not appropriation because it really helped with my OCD. A lot of my obsession and compulsions are centered around my hair and not having to do my hair every day was such a relief. I'm also autistic with a lot of sensitivity to things touching my skin and having my hair pulled back in a way that was comfortable and not constantly tickling my skin was so helpful to me. It would make such a difference for my quality of daily life if I was able to do it. I liked cornrows not necessarily because of the aesthetic (although I do think they are beautiful) but because they would be practical and a disability accommodation for me.
“I think I’m cute enough for people not to say that about me” …lol Ashley , very true
Haha, the first part made me laugh so much. By the way, partner is very common in Australia for all romantic relationships, even some straight married couples here would call their significant other their partner. I think perhaps in UK too it is more common.
being a straight person with blue hair I’m never saying the word partner again
😂
As someone with white dreads, I've only had other white people say anything about cultural appropriation.. I just had a whole conversation with a black dude at work about dreads and how we care for them. I've found that it's not really an issue. We were both curious and interested in each other's hair.
I will say, the majority of the black community doesn't call them "dreads" anymore. They are just locs
Yeah, but I embrace the word dreads. Since so many people think they are "dreadful". Because of the stigma about not being able to wash them, or the fact that it's matted up hair. To each their own.
The conversation on straight use of queer terms intrigues me as a 60yo. The reason myself and others of my ancient age the use of the plural pronouns was our heavy closet language so to hear it used now just instantly throws me back to the 1980-2000's fear of losing my job, friends, possibly life if I slipped and used other then plural pronouns to hide the choice of my non-work life etc.
imagine that person not realising that we all come here, at least in part, to enjoy ashley's hotness 🤷
Ok, i use "partner" a lot, and didn't even realise that is from queer culture. I heard it mamy times in English TV series/on internet.
But funny thing is that i am from europe and in my language partner is a gendered word. I think i like using "partner" because it does make feel relationship dynamics more equal and volontary.
22:03 Ashley when I say I KNEWWWW as soon as you mentioned the episode of the other podcast with Jen exactly what comment you were about to read. I kid you not - when I saw that comment my jaw hit the floor. I hoped you wouldn’t see it but figured you’d be comment surfing for Jen compliments to forward/brag to her about. lol. I’m sorry the beep-boops struck again - good intentions or not.
Mak is hilarious! Loved the Fulton impression
Holy backhanded compliment Batman!!😳
So I’m straight and female and when I refer to my boyfriend I tend to say partner sometimes only because I find saying boyfriend makes it sound too casual
Like this is my person I don’t like how the word boyfriend sounds like a casual dinner dates thing, like we live together and are in it for the long haul
I hear boyfriend and girlfriend as like a casual thing sometimes but that may just be a me thing
Me listening more maybe I’m the type of person Ashley hates because I also love the mystery of partner lol
Sorry Ashley
I'm straight, white and not a native speaker of English. Regarding the word partner and the use of they/them if you don't know someone's gender, I thought it was coming from an intentional attempt to use neutral language. I thought it leaves space for people to correct you if they want to, without forcing a correction. Regarding the term chosen family, I didn't know that was something queercoded at all😮 interesting to hear
In the UK most people use "partner" whether straight or gay
Some thoughts on use of incense to create smoke for ceremony - a quick google search indicates incense is used and has been used historically in Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, Christian, Catholic, and Islamic ceremony - not all ceremonies of all sects of all religions, but overall, looks like a lot of major world religions burn plant parts to create smoke during ceremony.
Another thought - the word smudge does not specify what plant is being used - I have heard the term smudge stick used for bundles of many different plants - lavender, sage, cedar, rosemary, thyme, and so forth.
Thanks for the info on concerns about over-harvesting of white sage - did not know that. As of a few years ago (haven’t checked recently), our local herb store carried white sage in bulk - though I live in an area with a high indigenous population, so don’t know if they are still carrying it.
Maks hair rn makes her look like a godness✨💪🏼, she's just beautiful ☺️
As someone who is estranged from family I use the term chosen family to describe my friends who have replaced the family I have lost for different reasons x
I am a queer, white woman (35), and just wanted to share my experience and thoughts on the topic of LGBT / cultural appropriation.
I think it’s a beautiful thing when the language / customs / perspective of one community start to permeate more communities and people, as it encourages people to embrace each other’s differences in ways of living rather than keeping a divide (this is MY culture, that is YOURS).
I love that more people are using partner, as I feel gendered language isn’t necessary in taking about your significant other. And it describes a deeper level of commitment that is without explicitly disclosing if you are engaged, married, or neither. (Which I feel is also not necessary).
I also love that more people are celebrating and embracing drag culture / queer culture in general, and I think as long as they are not doing it in a negative way, it’s just another beautiful community being accepted and loved!
Lastly, I have spent a great deal of time traveling (28 countries… and most of the time CouchSurfing with locals). I was an avid dancer, so I often really enjoyed learning different dances and ways of expression. It often acted a a cultural bridge and a way for me to interact with the locals more intimately than just observing, just like learning the language did (I also speak 5 languages). Even when I returned to Canada, I continued to be accepted and integrated in various cultural communities through language and dance, even joining some Brazilian performance dance groups (one samba group and one Afro-Brazilian dance group).
Anyway, I guess I’m just saying that there is usually more of a feeling of love and acceptance in blurring the lines of one specific community and culture. I really think it’s mostly white people who haven’t had these intimate experiences with other cultures that tend to discourage others from engaging in cultural things, and the people who are actually in these cultures tend to welcome others to share their experience.
Just my thoughts ❤
Ashley trying to be "appropriate" talking Jen's "upper region" while on her WHGS set is hilarious 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Hey black gen z listener here !! In the past few years the definition of cultural appropriation has been massively skewed. Its in reality more defined by another majority group taking a minorty groups culture, redifining it and passing it off as their own for profit or praise. For example a couple years ago, cornrows (from black culture) were appropriated by the white media and renamed Bo Derek braids, resulting in white models and celebrities being praised by the media for the 'new' trendy hairstyle. This results in multiple frustrations for the minority community...
1) they get to witness the double standard in responses from society, e.g. white people being praised for braids and called stylish while black people are called unproffessional and unkempt dor the same hairstyles.
2) On a wider note, the community who the cultre originates from, recieve no recognition or credit and it is given unfairly to those who "stole" the culture.
Nowadays people view cultural appropration as one white lady wearing dreads when in reality one white lady isnt doing all that harm and its on a wider scale when cultural appropraition becomes more apparent and harmful.
Hope this helps 🤟
I'm not fond of saying "partner" much because it sounds so clinical to me, hahah, but I'm all for different kinds of people trying out the term for themselves. I know I myself borrow words from other communities and am grateful for it so I feel it would be stingy if I didn't do the same.
9:57 *yeah she has perky shoulders Elena!* had me too hard😂😂💀💀💀💀
I am white and Irish so please take this with a grain of salt. But in pre-colonial Irish culture I know that we had a thing called “elflocks”. Basically these are modern day dreadlocks on the under layers of hair with hair out over it. I’m not saying this is what the girl was doing but she may be from an indigenous group or another culture that had similar traditions. I lived in Australia for a while and am friends with some aboriginal people, they have a saying that “no matter how much milk is in the coffee it’s still coffee” in relation to indigenous people having lighter skin due to colonialisation.
I hope I didn’t say anything inappropriate or didn’t speak on behalf of people, if anyone had an issue with this please let me know.
I personally don't understand why dreads are appropriating Black culture because of exactly what u just explained. So many other groups of ppl used "dreads." Being mad at White ppl wearing dreads is also selective outrage.
To add to this: there is also records of what they think to be dreadlocks or similar to them in Crete, Egypt, India, Asia, Germania(Romans described their hair as “like snakes”), and similar in Norse cultures, as well as various African cultures. Dreadlocks have kind of just evolved in multiple cultures across history. They might have come into style in the US through one or two cultural groups, but they have found examples of them in Europe 2-3000 years ago, as well as everywhere else.
Humans have had hair for so long, I think outside of specific niches, everyone has some claim to any hairstyle they can make their hair do
@@theembersinside1420 The reason as I understand it is that when Black folks (especially in the UK, Canada and the US) wear dreads, they are seen as being unprofessional or slovenly but when white people in the same locations do it they can be perceived as appropriate. So the double standard is a big issue there - relying on the racist stereotype that Black folks are not as "civilized" as white people.
Additionally while I acknowledge that many cultures of European and other ancestry did use dread styling in their cultures, white folks of today wearing them aren't necessarily going "I'm connecting to my Celtic roots". They are just seeing a hairstyle they like and using it.
I'm not sure what the right answer here (maybe there isn't one) but I hope this has added nuance to the conversation.
Ready to join my Chosen Family at the dinner table!
😅😂
I so look forward to this every week
This episode made me laugh so much🤣🤣🤣❤ I Love PDGay😁 Thank you all for being you and all the time you put into these episodes❤🥰🥰🥰
You touched on a really important topic at the end there, in relation to algorithms and information access. It’s not being talked about enough but we are entering an era of having the most access to information in human history, but a side effect of the savvy algorithms we’ve created to access all of it is actually causing people to lose access to information. You can start to notice this in younger Gen Z having sometimes never heard of really common movies, expressions, or older cultural events.
I'm still mid-watch but love that Ashley has "The Care and Keeping of You". I bought those for my daughter and it's made it way easier for her to talk to me about personal/puberty topics.
When the straights use partner it normalizes it. My gf doesn't need to out herself just by saying partner. Partner doesn't feel explicitly gay. The girls who say Girlfriends platonically THAT throws me. Partner is also good for if your partner starts exploring with gender but hasn't picked a label/ still identifys as cis, because you can respect their journey and help them without outting them in any way.
So a black girl from Antigua asked me a (pre-transition me) a white kid if I wanted her to do cornrows at camp back in 2006. I said sure. She said I was funny. I had them on for 4 days in England. There’s two photos of me with the cornrows. Was I appropriating? Of course not. I didn’t ask. She offered but if a person found it they’d claim I was appropriating and shouldn’t have done it without that context. Some would forget the time it happened. People don’t actually care about fixing real problems because how I style my hair is not solving real problems nor is it making fun of black people and black culture. Yet some would say I did cause more problems and start discourse which would say I was making fun of black people or appropriating their culture. A snapshot in time is only contextual for those that exist within the snapshot’s life at the time and people forget that. We are so traumatized we look for safety and threat but that is damaging connection, nuance, and empathy out of vulnerability when we need to give more people empathy like we would wish to receive. This is why I left a queer support group due to deliberate misrepresentation of statements I made and ignoring what I said for what they believed I said rather than what I said. Being wrong is fine but this bad faith behavior out of fear of threat is not. When things are done out of malice it’s fine to correct and be offended then but when it’s not, just take a breath. There are plenty of actual problems in this world to get upset about and focus on informing others or fighting to change to make the world a better place
Calling my boyfriend "partner" just feels more mature in some way. Like boyfriend feels like I'm still a teenager or something. I'm also bi and I don't like to appear straight lol
As a cis straight married man, I prefer using partner to refer to my wife cause I feel "wife" can have patriarchal and traditional values that I don't agree with. Plus I feel it helps others in queer relationships feel included. Interesting to hear that it can be controversial!
I am a straight male boomer who grew up in the 50s, 60s, and Early 70s. I was also considered a hippie and would get trashed on for that reason. Keeping in mind that the sexual revolution was in full swing during the 60s and 70s, the use of partner was used by many people because that was the most appropriate word for their relationship. There’s no reason to stop using it for that purpose.
On the use of they/them, that has always been used for unknown, indeterminate, or mixed gender. Unfortunately, it has always been used as a way to differentiate us from them. This in a way enforces our differences instead of embracing our humanity. I understand the reasons for wanting a non-gender pronoun, and “it” is not the way to go, but the language has baggage with negative connotations that we haven’t outgrown. I don’t know the answer to this, but hopefully we will all evolve into a more accepting society.
I've definitely seen some responses by Black creators ripping into that musician for the dreads as well as apparently just ripping her style whole cloth from a Black musician, and Native creators for her appropriation of smudging and other stuff (she has a what appears to be a mass produced dreamcatcher hanging in her car, and tattoos that are straight ripped from Indigenous people).
It's a big conversation to have too, especially since appreciation and appropriation get easily confused a lot by both sides of the debate; you also have things like sage cleansing being used by Celtic peoples and Gauls pre-Roman invasion, but white sage and smudging being specific to certain Native American groups, and some of them being fine with people using smudging and white sage as long as they are doing it respectfully and not buying from White people who are stealing the plant from tribal lands, causing the shortage in the first place.
It took a few days... but finally caught up with all of the episodes and I have loved every one of them ☺
As an older viewer, I associate dreads with Rastafarians rather than black culture. In turn, I see that as mainly Jamaican. Having met white Jamaicans who grew up in that society sporting dreads, are they appropriating?I
Cultural crossover, done in good faith, should be encouraged. Maybe the more you throw in the melting pot the less prejudices will arise?
Yk what.. I am a masc with an ass 😂😂😂😂😂help this is so funny
As a Millennial, I feel like "Chosen Family", is a very millennial thing to say. Most of us, don't have great relationships with our families. We all just refer to our friend groups as our "chosen family", because that's just how we treat them and what they are to us. Partner, I feel like it's mostly used in poly relationships. At least I've not heard it used outside of that context when it comes to cis-het relationships. Then again I've only ever seen/heard the word partner on the internet, and not IRL. Then again, here, people are just open about that sort of thing. They will just say "Oh yeah, that's my bf/gf/wife/husband", and nobody makes a big deal about it. You might at worst get an odd look followed by an "oh.. okay", but nobody is dumb/rude enough to actually say something.
On "appropriation"; context matters. The context is: did they do the thing with the intention of making fun of it, or did they do it because they like it? if it's the latter, then they're fine. If the former, THEN it's appropriation. If no harm is actually being done, there's just no there, there. This "Appreciation vs Appropriation" model seems to be the globally accepted reference point. The majority seems to agree that the idea of merely using something is appropriation by default is just xenophobic nonsense and should be ignored. People genuinely want to share their culture with others that enjoy it. Those that don't, are a severely small, albeit extremely vocal, minority. Personally, I think it's one of those phrases that gets misused so frequently that we should just toss it in the bin, as it's effectively meaningless now. It's kind of a net negative at this point, and people just use it to manufacture fake outrage. Also, we're white, we steal things we like, that's just what we do... ask the British Museum. 🤣
Also, lets appreciate that Ashley put in all that effort at 10:00, to keep the conversation PG for the sake of monetization, and Alayna and Mak tried so hard to get her to say the word that might ruin it.
On the topic of "chosen family" being used by non-queer folk - in a recent conversation with my grandfather (the man who married my dad's mom), he described our family as his chosen family, and my mother agreed about my dad's side of the family as her chosen family too, because they both had complicated/toxic/dramatic families growing up and get a lot out of now being part of the more wholesome and healthy family dynamics of my dad and his mom's side fo the family
(Also shout-out to my dad's side of the family, there's all great and supportive and open-minded and just generally cool people)
The fulton's impression was so good lmao
Ashley doesn’t know the freedom of calling them “my girlfriend’s boobers” like us grownups do. 😏
(originally made one big comment, but splitting this off since it's a separate topic)
I also default to "they/them" for everyone who hasn't told me otherwise, even if I can venture a guess that they are cis
I guess this is my take on defaulting to "they" and I'd be happy to hear if others think this is inconsiderate/a bad way to think of it: By defaulting to "they," I am choosing a completely gender-neutral term until I've been told they go by something else (or do people view "they" as specifically a non-binary term that implies a non-binary identity? I just think of it as non-gendered overall.) When people default to "he" or "she" based on appearance, they are making assumptions based on social conventions and their perception of how others fit into that, and also continue to push a gender binary even if they'd be an ally if you told them you're enby. Defaulting to "they" isn't so much an assumption about the person as it is specifically NOT assuming anything until told otherwise
I think something that got conflated in this episode was gender identity and pronouns. As a nonbinary person who uses they/them pronouns, I don't think of myself "identifying" as using they/them pronouns. I use the pronouns that feel the best for me and most align with my identity. I would definitely agree that using they/them before you know someone's pronouns is something great for exactly the reasons you stated. It helps to undo the assumptions we make about people based on their gender expression, and also helps to validate and make space for those whose identities are different than what we might've assumed just by looking at them. Also, it makes me so upset when someone says that "they" is automatically associated with a nonbinary identity. Anyone can use whatever pronouns feel best for them. Someone who absolutely identifies as a cis man can use they/them pronouns if that's what feels best for them! Just like how someone named Robert might go by Bob because that's what feels best for them!
The comment is so out of pocket omfg. I don't believe in leagues. Also Ashley is super attractive
About the cultural appropriation, have you seen the clip of the white guy dressing as a cartoon mexican, with a big sombrero and a poncho and a fake mustache, walking trough a university campus, then in the same outfit going to a really mexican neighbourhood...
The students were outraged, and the mexicans loved it.
I worked with a white guy, borned and raised in africa, who got attacked for wearing an traditional african bracelet, he replyed in Swahili that it was made for him by his african "mother" (stepmom) and that he really liked to carry that memory of her.
AS LONG AS IT IS NOT DONE WITH BAD INTENT it is good that we share our cultures around, maybe we like similar things because we are more similar than we think?
On that note, I'm a guy, an old one too, and I have come to appreciate all kinds of female bodys with age, sure big boobs and butts are "outstanding features of the female anatomy" but I like the girls in the "itty bitty comitty" too, and I don't even care about someones body type in the search for a partner, i don't care about the size of their dangly bits at all
Thank you for loving me! -A Proud Sinner and Patreon Member 😄✌️
Okay, I'm not native, but I've done a decent amount of research into this (I've been a pagan since the early 2000s, my mom has been a new age hippie since before I was born, and one of my obsessions is ancient religions and traditions) and since I'm not seeing it in the comments yet, I'm going to step in. If anyone who is actually native has any corrections PLEASE add them because, like I said, this is just from what I've read and heard, so there's entirely a chance I'll say something wrong in all this.
But anyways, here's the thing about smudging. First off, please please remember that not all indigenous nations are the same. There's some over lap between some of them, yes, but the Navajo don't have the same traditions as the Ojibwe, just like the Blackfeet don't have the same traditions as the Coushatta. They're different groups of people with different traditions. That out of the way, indigenous nations are not the only cultures to use smoke based cleansing rituals and not all nation's smoke based rituals are going to look the same. Even the use of the word "smudging" and herbs/woods used are going to be different. Not all nations use sage in their smoke cleansing rituals.
The problem with white sage in particular is that it's not a very wide spread plant and only really grows in and around southern California. So, when new age groups and white pagans began to misappropriate it, the commercial harvesters were going to traditionally Native harvesting sites and wiping out the area, some even pulling whole plants up by the roots. It's not endangered yet (as far as I know), but it's gotten close.
So, if you're not Native and you're really connected to smoke cleansing, look into what herbs/woods were sacred for your ancestors or the culture your practice originates from or even just where you live. Also, look into saining if you're Irish/Scottish or follow a Celtic/druidic practice. I don't believe there's a traditional Norse smoke cleansing ritual, but I have come across a few people using the words "rēcaning", "reykja", or "reykr" in place of "smudging".
Is "saining" the correct term to research? I started "smudging", as it was called then, in the 90s exploring my Irish Wiccan roots (pre internet, so harder to find info like this stuff then, mostly relied on books and metaphysical shop keepers). I had no idea it was linked to Native indigenous cultures, then, nor that since then the explosion of sage for commerce has put the plant on the threatened list. There are a lot of plants used in meditations and rituals that are on the threatened or endangered groups, like Palo Santo. Which is why I feel like we should not be socially using plants that are threatened, whether fresh, dried, or essential oils
P.S. thanks for your helpful comment.
Surprised by the lack of Indigenous people stepping in. As an Indigenous person (and obvs disclaimer that I’m not every Indigenous person lol) it’s 100% about the commercialization of it.
For one, I do think white witches have plenty of their own pagan/spiritual/etc traditions and medicine to pull from, and it comes off as questionable for witches to need to use medicine Native to the Americas. But also, people should be free to use plants responsibly if they wish to. However, living in a very liberal area, I see white women all the time SELLING white sage in their witch booths at festivals or at their boutiques. And this I do find deeply problematic because now it is not a matter of using a practice and appreciating it’s medicine, it’s taking a practice and plant that is not yours and profiting off of it, when historically Indigenous people have had these practices stripped from them. I cannot emphasize how many times I’ve seen white sage in a store window or on a white womans booth along with crystals and potions, and I do think that is what the majority of Indigenous people are upset by. It’s distasteful.
Growing white sage as a native plant in your garden: 100% awesome go for it
Using white sage as part of your spiritual practice in your own home: Love it, do it if you want
Selling white sage: No.
Buying white sage from a white woman: no
Paying a white woman to teach you how to use white sage/teaching and monetizing from teaching other people how to use white sage: absolutely not
I feel like those nuances and big differences are important lol.
@therednewqueer6313 thank you so much for so eloquently expressing the importance and the difference about profiting. Your point is very well made. 🙂
I think Ashley’s comment about algorithms is key to the outrage. Much as I’d like to think everyone understands about the appropriation of black hair styles I don’t think ppl do. specially if they live in predominantly white areas.
I am in a committed relationship with my "boyfriend" but I hate that term, so what am I supposed to use but "Partner?"
If I don't stop watching this smile's gonna break my face
I’m gen x. People in general have been using chosen family since long before the internet.
😂 Alayna being nervous about her masc with an ass is just so funny
Jajajajjajajjaj and her reaction to Ashley's intro 😂😂😂
Also, other countries use partner as a step above boyfriend/girlfriend and a step below wife/husband.
18:20 as a hijabi lesbian I'm loving this bc not many get to see me without my hijab and such.. lol also guys I really appreciate this pod (and Ashley's other pod) ugh seriously thank u 🩶