Makes me so sad whenever they say they will try to keep the video under 2 hours 😢 i would love a 3 hour pod cast, I learn alot of new things and new perspectives from you guys. Its just so interesting and entertaining for me. Thank you Revzilla team 🙌
TH-cam videos should be either less than 15 minutes long to fit in a coffee break or less than an hour long to fit into lunch. 2+ hours is just ridiculous unless you have nothing useful to do with your life and just sit around and watch videos all day.
@@LTVoyagerso you just HAVE to watch the whole thing in one sitting? lol 😹 and this is a listening type of vid, i can listen to this at work and glance at it when they say they are pulling up an image or something, plus you can pause the thing at any time you want and continue later 😹 and pretty sure most people watching youtube aint watching it during lunch time, probably evening when they get off work 😉
Rewatching some episodes, did anyone catch that Zack swears at 1:22:05 and they didn't bleep it out? XD Great show as always guys. Perfect for keeping me focused at work.
Polaris did not intend to shut down the Victory Models but the Models with Indian Logos sold so much better that it was not practical to continue Victory ..
I have a 1969 / 1000cc Iron Head of course most people don't like my HD because it was built by AMF. I chop bought a hardtail frame, rake front end no front brakes etc. Love it tons of torque. And the electrical is a Bosch system. (German). I drive my HD most of the time and cruise 200+ miles to Bay Area and back home quite often.
John Britton the guy who built the Britton reminds me of Eric Buell .. R.I.P. John Britton died at a young age from Melanoma. His friend who was also involved with building the bike and who could have continued building the Britton MC died while Piloting a Helicopter in a Risky Volunteer Rescue Mission . Much respect to him too ..
Ive always listen to this podcast at work and rewatch from season 1 to now..but now thanks to this i survived at the dentist for the extractions ... Thank you for taking my mind off those excruciating experience and enjoy my time yhere
Thanks so much for doing a Harley Davidson show! HD gets so much hate from the rest of the riding community. I appreciate you taking the time to do this!
The American brands need full lineups like others. Have nakeds. Have a sport bike. Etc. Appeal to the whole world. Keep the historical lines as their "modern retros" but fill in other slots. Harley GIVE US THE BRONX. Indian, make a mid cc FTR. Then give us more!
The worst outcome of the MV debacle was the closure of Buell. Harley would have had a 150hp Adv bike ten years ago were it not for that....... ok maybe more of an XR challenger than a GS clone but let's not dwell on the detail 😜. Erik made some damn fine bikes - particularly considering the compromises he had to work with.
As a 60 yr old biker who never owned a HD- I wish them well. Nothing ever appealed to me they sold. Then I saw the Bronx. And I was interested. I'm waiting for HD to build it. Please hurry- my riding days are numbered.
You and a lot of us really. Harley made the xr1200, that was good. Cancelled. They made the roadster which got me in to harleys. That was good. Cancelled for more cruisers. Then the bronx. Oh baby. Cancelled for more cruisers. Sigh.
I remember the 1980's and the tariff was a response to the predatory dumping of the big 4 from Japan. The late 70's early 80's were boon years and production was way up. Many of the bikes the Japanese were bringing over were cruisers like Shadows, Viragos, Vulcans, Intruders. When the recession hit they dumped bikes here (for less than other places) to finish Harley off. It was a decreasing tariff that was for bikes over 700cc and only lasted 4 years. It didn't touch the smaller bikes that were the Japanese bread and butter. The tariff help hold off Harleys creditors after their leveraged buyout from AMF. The Evo motor sold like hot cakes and that saved Harley. Read what Lemmy wrote for a fair look at it.
I believe Harley would sell a lot of bikes if they made the decision to finally build modern engines for more than just the Panamera. Maybe make an actual light bike for once that isn't a cruiser. Make a 700 or 900 version of the Panamera engine and make a tracer competitor. The market is huge for that stuff these days. The super fat heavy Harley rider, the bike not the person riding it is a market that in my opinion is shrinking. Heritage isn't as important to the younger riders coming up. Harley has a huge market of 20 to 40 year old riders that Harley basically sells nothing for. A lot of people don't want a bike that weighs 800 pounds
Hey guys, new-ish rider/listener here; leaving my review on TH-cam because I'm not an apple person and I don't feel like making an account. I always enjoy the show and this one especially because I find the influence of historical events on different industries interesting. Great takes, laughs, and guests as always, three out of five stars wouldn't change a thing. My t-shirt size is XL.
Not sure it is an American “blunder” (aside from the price point) but I’m curious as to your take on the rise and demise of MOTUS Motorcycles. I’ve never ridden one, but the MST or MST-R is my unicorn dream bike.
Agree. Not sure if it was a blunder as far as function, but it was in price sadly. They used the absolute best parts in all their iterations and the general public just couldn't afford to buy them. RIP Motus!
Patrick Garvin is my hero. While you guys focused a lot on Harley, and all of it fair (and I say that as a current Harley owner), I would love to hear you guys touch on Indian's tried and failed revivals. And a touch on some of the history of bikes from the pre war era. Ace motorcycle company and Whizzer kits. Any one of them could have changed American motorcycle history pretty drastically if they didn't fail.
I think the Indian Challenger is an ugly bike. I like the engine, but no way would I buy one. I also think the Harley LowRider ST is ugly. I am interested in the Bronx if it isn't priced way too high. I am betting it will be priced at least as high as the Indian FTR which is too much.
A surprisingly great show! Surprising because of the subject, not the participants. Patrick Garvin is a great and funny guest. More, more, more!!! It was cathartic to hear his, well deserved, criticism of some of the blunders in HDs past. Finally, a worthwhile discussion of the “L” word (Lifestyle). Most consumer product companies on this planet sell some form of “Lifestyle”. This beer makes you more attractive… (well sometimes it does… until daylight…). This car/truck/SUV makes you adventurous (Hmmm great name for a bike… the NFG ADVENTURE R has a nice ring to it). The difference between HD and other companies is that the other companies put much more effort into R&D, and modernizing their products. If only there were motorcycle manufacturers that produce models respectful of their heritage and modern motorcycles with high performance… (Ducati, Triumph, BMW…). I remember several friends who swore that they are done with Ducati… when they went to liquid cooling. They of course bought and immensely enjoyed their liquid cooled 1098/1198 twins. Then their heads exploded when the top end Ducati sportbikes went to V4. They were done! They now swear that the Streetfighter S is the best motorcycle ever made, anything less is for the unwashed masses! Maybe HD can even have a sister brand that built more modern bikes… oh wait…. Bye bye Buell. So, in reality, HD has had a colossal failure of leadership, unlike the three motorcycle manufacturers I mentioned. Maybe the Livewire spin off can start to rectify HDs trajectory. The chopper craze/clusterf… can hopefully be remembered… and mocked for a very long time! The trinket laden theme bikes were nothing more than product placement. A lame joke on all those that watched that swill. An American manufacturer in SBK/MotoGp would be awesome. The technology and engineering talent exists. Put Richard Stanbolli together with Katec and sit back and watch the awesome creations.
Don't forget that the Aftermarket builds Improved Variants of HD Engines.. They have better crank shafts better oil pumps ect.. For every Problem an HD has there is an aftermarket Solution to Improve it ..
Micheal Cycyz, did a MotoGP project which was interesting and then went on to do a TT electric bike which did well, like John Britten died to young and the company disappeared, that was a shame, he was great competition to the Honda Mugen electric bike, after he stopped Honda had no real competition. The change in engine size killed the MotoGP project but it was a very clever and interesting engine.
The recent Harley news pretty much ensured that I will never invest my money in their products. They are completely out of touch with the larger motorcycle market. Harley's recent business decisions are terrible and I won't feel pity if the company goes under.
You bring up Harley being a lifestyle brand. That maybe for some, but it maybe more a brand associated with why people ride. I ride more for relaxation (endorphins). As I have gotten older my need for speed (adrenaline) has been replaced with a desire to enjoy traveling on an machine that is as relaxed as I want to be. 😀
You guys need to wrap your heads around a long podcast being okay. I listen to Whiskey Throttle (which is generally excellent btw) and the PulpMX show, both of which can run up to 4 or even 5 hours. Longform is FINE!!! Maybe even preferred. Great shows guys, longer would be good.
I read that HD paid $100 Million for Alta and owns their technology and Patents.. and KTM bought the actual manufacturing facilities and parts ect. but can't use Alta technology because HD owns them ..
I'm guilty of still wanting a chopper in the collection. Finding one that is either tasteful or not a pile of parts, however, is pretty much impossible. I've decided I'm just going to build one.
Indian Larry always tried to built bikes that were ridable had decent handling and braking ect. Choppers were for custom built bike shows.. Not very practical to ride..
@@SpurgeonDunbar correct, they didn't, and it was extremely underfunded. Which goes along with your premise about sport bikes and American manufacturers. Having said that though, Honda hasn't won in WSB for a while either!
@@SpurgeonDunbar As a Brit living in CA, the thing that is often missed is the differences in roads. You slightly touched on it about the Brit bikes being lighter etc, European vehicles are designed for smaller roads and going fast around corners. American vehicles are built for sitting on a freeway on a pretty much straight line for hours. Think Vette vs a Porsche. Different markets and mentality, Ford even softened the suspension on my Focus due to the crappier roads in the US, and less need for sharp handling. As you said 40% is lifestyle, and lifestyle doesn't buy sportsbikes, since they are regarded as organ donors. Honestly, I think if I were to start a new motorbike company, it would be building non-ugly Pan Americans, most likely with Chinese parts to be price competitive. That's what kills any new manufacture.
The chopper phase failed because the people buying them were not life long enthusiasts interested in actually riding. They were fad followers who wanted to look cool. The fad died, they went away.
It would be great if they had someone on who genuinely loves Harleys to even out the perspective. Used to be Lemmy who would give great insight into how Harley people actually think now nobody provides that side of the argument. They seem to only care about sport bikes, supermotos or adv bikes.
I’m a fairly new viewer of HSLS. I’ve enjoyed each episode. This sure beats Orange County Choppers:) Patrick is certainly a solid citizen of the industry. He reminds me a little of Dan Binks. Smart point made about the competitiveness of American motorcycles in international Motorsport. Our ambivalence towards building racing machines is as perplexing as the USMNT inability to win a World Cup. Sports is practically a hard science in the USA. We produce exceptional athletes, have the best training facilities, top coaches and physicians. Just as we have the best engineering schools, technology, and financial wherewithal to create a machine equal to or better than any import. But we lack a manufacturer with the capability to do so. American racers have dominated Supercross, Motocross de Nations and MotoGP for 40 years. Wouldn’t it be something if they were riding an American machine as they take another checkered flag. Really enjoyed the retrospective of Harley too. It’s amazing that they maintain such a market share in this country. Even more amazing that an American entrepreneur hasn’t filled the void between their products and the imports. Looking forward to viewing more episodes of HSLS.
It's amazing to me how people just insist on bagging on Harleys, and the Evo bikes especially. It's absolutely a fair argument that Harley Davidson has been a company that uses outdated technology. But on the flipside, Evolution engines have been some of the most reliable long term engines made. There's been so many arguments stating Harley Davidson engines are unreliable, and don't hold up, but I've seen these engines take extreme abuse, and keep on running. These engines aren't gonna run with today's liquid/water cooled engines, but they weren't meant to. One thing anyone should understand, is bikes appeal to different riders for different reasons. These bikes are really good machines when you keep in mind what they're designed for. Harley Davidson is about the attitude, the cruiser market, the custom market. The The Evo Sportster engine has been a mainstay for nearly 40 years. Their not necessarily the best motorcycle made, but that's a title that truthfully can't be given to any motorcycle, because it all depends on personal preference. I look at it like this. I don't like the high end sport bike scene, and many other genres as well. But that doesn't change the fact that they are good (if not amazing) motorcycles. I think it's ridiculous that people just live to give Harley Davidson flack. They don't need to like them, but why do they feel the need to dog em. Harley Davidson is a company that has chops, whether someone likes them or not. And don't get me wrong, I don't like every model, but I love the company. I love the new models as well as the old. I also love other brands as well. Motorcycles in general are awesome, and all brands can be really cool, depending on one's personal interests. But I don't think it's fair to call them junk, when that's just not the case
Well said. To add to my story about buying a new CB750 (above) because I couldn't afford a Harley, I rode that motorcycle all over the place for 22 years until I could afford a Harley FLHTCU in 1994. It's a bike built to carry two big people comfortably on long trips. I've ridden it, two-up, for over 100,000 miles - that's 40 oil changes, with no problems in 26 years! I love my carberated Harley!
As a kid growing up during the tv chopper craze I loved the bike Jesse James made. Me and my dad used to watch the show all the time. I still have some of the model bikes they sold in the box. I loved the bikes that came from that era. The drama not so much.
Polaris has a Partnership with Zero Motorcycles. Polaris has Electric Utility and Military vehicles in Production with Zero Technology . There is a German Company building an amazing Motocross Bikes in Spite of HD Snuffing Alta..
They should have kept Buell and then turned them loose with these new generation water cooled twins. Buell wasn't losing money. There was no need to shut them down. I remember seeing their Buell Battle twin at a bike show in 82 or 83 and drooling over it. It felt like the cockpit of a fighter from WW2.
Indian was a 1 Generation Family business and HD was a 3 Generation Family owned business.. Indian had too many model and parts changes.. HD's used the same ole parts year after year.. General Motors was always good at standardizing parts from brand to grand under the GM Brand Umbrella ..
I think a big part of the failing is the general mentality of isolationism and America first thought that many have/had. If you don't want to compete beyond your country it will be hard to improve within that bubble. It's not easy to accept that competitors are better but you have to accept it, learn and improve. Otherwise you don't really have a global market push and it's not really good business sense to avoid that. In any case I do not mind buying American made but it has to be well made also. Sometimes the reason for buying it being for the "image"isn't enough. I enjoyed this discussion and really look forward to having this on other regions.
HD Invented the Lifestyle to push their Motorcycles.. It was Genius Marketing.. Yes people buy Indian for the name and Heritage. Also bad and Greedy Harley Dealers push people to Indian .. There definitely is an Indian Tax on accessories too ..
I know I've heard each podcast episode at least twice, my preferred ones probably 3-5x. ...but my app (the old PocketCasts**) doesn't give a count, and 1/4 of the listens are via TH-cam (like this one! Ha.) **Still! Never could get into the post-acquisition new interface.
Good conversation guys. Patrick should be included in more episodes in my opinion. He rounds out the total team experiences. I have to say, prior to the actual conversation topic but still related, everyone missed the point on the Low Rider ST. This is not a King of the Baggers wanna be, this bike is very clearly patterned after the FXDXT from the early 2000’s. The FXDXT and it’s sister bikes FXDX and FXDXP are the root of the club style bikes that Sons of Anarchy made famous for the mainstream audience. The fairing is a good replica of the FXDXT fairing. The bags/cases are less successful representations. Also, for traditional Harley riders in general, the Revolution Max is not what people want in a traditional cruiser or touring bike.These people want loud, rumbling air-cooled V-Twins that make a lot of torque and get attention wherever they go. Comparisons were made between the street glide and the Challenger. The Indian a very good bike that is technically better than the Street Glide in almost every aspect. Yet, traditional American big twin riders overwhelmingly buy street glides or road glides. This goes back to my previous point about the engines. The target people don’t care if Indian’s has more power, tech or modern features. They want the rumble that comes with a big Harley v-twin. Patrick should have known these things. To put it in perspective, arguing that a Rev Max Harley cruiser/bagger would be better than the current bike is like Spurgeon arguing that a KTM ADV bike is “better” than a R1250GS. The people spending money on ADV bikes say different regardless of specs and performance abilities.
1)- Wille G is still alive (91 as of this note), 2- my 2002 Vrod with OEM 1130cc engine (1st year) has 141k miles on it now as this “Expert” claims “ the Vrod Engine is a big piece of junk”. I rode it today.
Not the V-Max or GL, that's apples vs oranges. The Yamaha Eluder or Kawasaki Vaquero would be more apt. And they would get smoked, unless they stepped up their game.
Made it to 37:42 and Spurgeon already lost it at 93rwhp from the 117cui, at the mention of the development cycle and engineering needed behind the fairing and saddlebags und now barely can keep the laughter at bay when the final introduction of aluminium heads was mentioned. Am I right if I reckon he does not think fondly of the breakthroughs in development at HD ?
auto adjusting ride height or whatever the system is called that's on the Pan America, the one which lowers the height of the motorcycle when you come to a stop. First manufacturer to have it, and I believe they came out with it a couple years after 1940, sometime around 2021...
Gentlemen...best episode of HS/LS ever. It's about time onee of yuze YTtubers brought up the chopper craze of the late 90s ,early 2000s. But Spourgeon, Zack...you stinkin' millennials! We're Americans! At that time choppers we're cool. Loud, fire breathing monstrosities that were the envy if the world. How many kids went back to shop class after Jesse James came in TV? Yes, I agree the reality TV shitshow of the era set us back 50 years, but I thought yuze guys were a little hard in that era. It was a worldwide fad, like any fad, came and went. But it put people on bikes ...and isn't that what it's all about? We are edging to a world where soon, nobody will know how to operate a clutch ..and isn't that part of becoming one with the motorcycle? Give that era it's due.. we're Americans! Big, loud. and fast! Rethink that era..please
seriously though, some brands are less reliable / more prone to have issues. if i didn't have first hand knowledge, i probably wouldn't believe it either. but a friend of mine (yes i consider this first hand knowledge because i know and interact with this person in real life and saw the issues myself) bought a 390 Duke and it had non-stop electrical problems. nothing major, but imo a modern machine should not have electrical issues ever. ...we've got this stuff figured out. for it to have that type of issue means either extremely bad design or unimaginably low quality (or old) electrical components. i say unimaginably low because even low quality these days would be pretty reliable. i don't know if you guys know about this stuff and pretend not to so they'll keep sending you machines to test, or if you genuinely don't know. i understand you can't report something that you haven't experienced first hand, so it's certainly possible you "don't know" about it, but surely you can get ahold of some numbers that show how often different manufacturers need unscheduled maintenance and perhaps for what.
What? A KTM with reliability issues? Say it isn't so! I think what Zack was referring to here (and previously) is the design of motorcycles today, and that they all (within margins for intended purpose) are good motorcycles in that they handle well, perform well, are comfortable, are enjoyable to ride, etc... They don't have the time and resources to buy a fleet of bikes and ride them for 10k miles to evaluate their reliability. But, to be fair, Zack wasn't precise in his statement, and it could he construed that he was also saying that there is no significant difference in parts quality between manufacturers. He/they should either be more precise, or gather data from other reliable sources to augment their reviews and discussions. IMO if KTM would spend some time addressing their reliability issues, they would sell significantly more bikes. I might be a KTM owner now, if they had done that years ago.
Several things: 1. The briefest mention of Victory Motorcycles and its demise at Polaris' hand was definitely too brief. Why was it so glossed over? 2.. The creation, purchase, and shutdown of Buell Motorcycles was barely covered, and the topic of EBR and its potential, followed by a quick shuttering was also not covered at all. This was a true contender for racing by an American company, that was an answer for Mr. Courts. 3. There is a new American motorcycle manufacturing company that will arise within the next decade, and it will be brought to you by yours truly, and a talented team. We're working on something big. Guys, never forget that there is a huge portion of the American motorcyclist that rides American machines. And to a lot of what you guys are talking about, the way American motorcycle companies work, comes down to culture. Americans do as Americans do. Let's take soccer, as an example (Zack will relate): Americans call it a field, out of bounds, soccer, extra time, PKs, etc, despite what the rest of the world is doing. The same applies to motorcycling. Americans will always walk to the beat of their own drum, because culturally, they're different. As always, great job guys! Always a pleasure to watch and listen to (mostly listen, while commuting, on days that I drive).
Of course Victory's demise was at the hands of Polaris, Victory has always been a wholly owned subsidiary of Polaris. I preferred Victory's style over Indian FWIW. But I also understand why they did what they did. When that damn vacuum cleaner salesman pulled the plug on Buell and then bought MV Agusta, that was a real dark time. A lot of people are still pretty salty about it.
The discussion of American m/c industry blunders was fascinating. It reminded me how grateful to Honda American M/C I am now, and will always be, for making my entry, into Motorcycling possible as a young man back in in 1970. The Harleys we're not affordable, but I could afford a used CB350 and a year later, a brand new CB750K1. A lifelong motor life started for me despite the Slugardly American motor industry that wouldn't accommodate entry-level motors for youngsters. And thanks to Motorcycling, I'm still a youngster! Thanks, guys, for HSLS! It's always a hoot!
the OCC chopper years were a necessary evil because it's a good example of what not to do. if it hadn't happened as it did, ie., gotten so big that everyone knew about it, then we wouldn't ALL know how ridiculous it was. like, we're grown up now, and know not to do that. in other words, there's seriously good reason behind all the r&d in rake and trail and exhaust tuning and ergonomics, etc. a guy in his garage can do it, but not without lots of prior knowledge and testing.
From a motorcycling perspective, I see OCC in the light of the old quote “that there is no such thing as bad publicity.” OCC may have gotten people interested in motorcycles who never before had such interest and that is likely a good thing.
There's plenty of justified criticism of Harley but Harley did not kill Alta or shut them down. Harley invested in Alta with the plan to form a partnership in developing a new electric motorcycle (there were concept pictures floating around online). This investment was NOT an acquisition and Harley did not own Alta. Obviously at some point during this brief partnership Harley decided it didn't like the direction the partnership was going (likely conflicting ideas of what this new project should be), and with that they ended the partnership. Harley is not a charity to keep Alta a float if its not also benefiting them. Harley did not just come in and take Alta "tech" and run. There is no Alta tech on Livewire, which was already nearing production, and is significantly different in design to Alta's vehicles. Even the upcoming Livewire products that have been teased share basically no similarity to Alta designs apart from using cylindrical cells (which is not some secret Alta design). Alta was clearly not sustainable on their own and should have found other investors or found a way to keep Harley interested.
I have to disagree. Everything I have read points to Harley never being serious about Alta other than eliminating them as competition, much as they have done in racing as was well-described in this video. Harley’s definition of “competition” has never been to make a superior product, but rather to try to make other products inferior to theirs so they can sell there junk.
@@LTVoyager How did Harley eliminate them as competition...by investing in them? Harley ending their partnership put Alta right back to where they were before the partnership started. Also Alta wasn't really a competitor to Harley's electric ambitions. The two companies have basically no overlap product...Alta made dirt bikes and Harley makes street bikes. If Harley wanted to shut down competition they would target Zero or Energica...companies that actually had models that compete against Livewire.
You guys failed to mention companies such as EBR making a resurgence with some competitive high performance bikes. What would have been cool is if HD bought Motus and used their V4 baby block in some more sport oriented bikes!
I just don't get how harley makes such little hp out of big ci. The Bronx is the only harley that everyone wants. And with the custom choppers now they're working 7-12k. I hate theme bikes as well Patrick, they look so terrible.
I never understood why someone would buy an american motorcycle:; Noisy, heavy, expensive gas-guzzlers that don't ride well and leak oil... but, misteryosly, they sell a lot here in Brazil! The Orange County choppers being the ultimate freak show. Thank you guys to explain the reason.
You guys are unfairly conflating a LOT of the custom builders in the early 2000s with OCC reality tv. What you missed here is that the boom opened a lot of eyes to the idea that bikes could be looked at as pieces of art, rather than heavily advertised mass-market machines that previously dominated. We’ve drifted away from that back into an era where we exhaustively review and dissect everything corporations pump out, and the truly amazing builders and craftspeople are niche interests again.
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Makes me so sad whenever they say they will try to keep the video under 2 hours 😢 i would love a 3 hour pod cast, I learn alot of new things and new perspectives from you guys. Its just so interesting and entertaining for me. Thank you Revzilla team 🙌
TH-cam videos should be either less than 15 minutes long to fit in a coffee break or less than an hour long to fit into lunch. 2+ hours is just ridiculous unless you have nothing useful to do with your life and just sit around and watch videos all day.
@@LTVoyagerso you just HAVE to watch the whole thing in one sitting? lol 😹 and this is a listening type of vid, i can listen to this at work and glance at it when they say they are pulling up an image or something, plus you can pause the thing at any time you want and continue later 😹 and pretty sure most people watching youtube aint watching it during lunch time, probably evening when they get off work 😉
@@DefZen343 Not surprised at all that watch TH-cam or listen to podcasts at work … assuming you really do work.
@@LTVoyager ok Mr coffee break 👌
@@LTVoyager Could you please be a bit more elitist? If someone can listen to a podcast they are therefore not employed?
2022 mistake: H-D not producing the Bronx
Rewatching some episodes, did anyone catch that Zack swears at 1:22:05 and they didn't bleep it out? XD Great show as always guys. Perfect for keeping me focused at work.
Polaris did not intend to shut down the Victory Models but the Models with Indian Logos sold so much better that it was not practical to continue Victory ..
Harley ditching Buell was a massive blunder.
Eric Buell built a Competative V-Twin race bike for the V-Twin class. Eric was on a Low Budget However..
I have a 1969 / 1000cc Iron Head of course most people don't like my HD because it was built by AMF. I chop bought a hardtail frame, rake front end no front brakes etc. Love it tons of torque.
And the electrical is a Bosch system. (German).
I drive my HD most of the time and cruise 200+ miles to Bay Area and back home quite often.
John Britton the guy who built the Britton reminds me of Eric Buell .. R.I.P. John Britton died at a young age from Melanoma. His friend who was also involved with building the bike and who could have continued building the Britton MC died while Piloting a Helicopter in a Risky Volunteer Rescue Mission . Much respect to him too ..
Ive always listen to this podcast at work and rewatch from season 1 to now..but now thanks to this i survived at the dentist for the extractions ...
Thank you for taking my mind off those excruciating experience and enjoy my time yhere
Thanks so much for doing a Harley Davidson show! HD gets so much hate from the rest of the riding community. I appreciate you taking the time to do this!
Make a big inline 4 like HENDERSON!
The American brands need full lineups like others. Have nakeds. Have a sport bike. Etc. Appeal to the whole world. Keep the historical lines as their "modern retros" but fill in other slots. Harley GIVE US THE BRONX. Indian, make a mid cc FTR. Then give us more!
Not to mention they might do well to appeal to the whole of America too...
The worst outcome of the MV debacle was the closure of Buell. Harley would have had a 150hp Adv bike ten years ago were it not for that....... ok maybe more of an XR challenger than a GS clone but let's not dwell on the detail 😜. Erik made some damn fine bikes - particularly considering the compromises he had to work with.
As a 60 yr old biker who never owned a HD- I wish them well. Nothing ever appealed to me they sold. Then I saw the Bronx. And I was interested. I'm waiting for HD to build it. Please hurry- my riding days are numbered.
You and a lot of us really. Harley made the xr1200, that was good. Cancelled. They made the roadster which got me in to harleys. That was good. Cancelled for more cruisers.
Then the bronx. Oh baby.
Cancelled for more cruisers. Sigh.
Yeah, we keep hoping. I think they'll get there, but slowlyyyy. The Pan American shows they're capable of a good bike if they try!
Maybe they are just maximising profits by building bikes with the highest margin.
I remember the 1980's and the tariff was a response to the predatory dumping of the big 4 from Japan. The late 70's early 80's were boon years and production was way up. Many of the bikes the Japanese were bringing over were cruisers like Shadows, Viragos, Vulcans, Intruders. When the recession hit they dumped bikes here (for less than other places) to finish Harley off. It was a decreasing tariff that was for bikes over 700cc and only lasted 4 years. It didn't touch the smaller bikes that were the Japanese bread and butter. The tariff help hold off Harleys creditors after their leveraged buyout from AMF. The Evo motor sold like hot cakes and that saved Harley. Read what Lemmy wrote for a fair look at it.
I believe Harley would sell a lot of bikes if they made the decision to finally build modern engines for more than just the Panamera. Maybe make an actual light bike for once that isn't a cruiser. Make a 700 or 900 version of the Panamera engine and make a tracer competitor. The market is huge for that stuff these days. The super fat heavy Harley rider, the bike not the person riding it is a market that in my opinion is shrinking. Heritage isn't as important to the younger riders coming up. Harley has a huge market of 20 to 40 year old riders that Harley basically sells nothing for.
A lot of people don't want a bike that weighs 800 pounds
#1 Getting rid of Buell
Hey guys, new-ish rider/listener here; leaving my review on TH-cam because I'm not an apple person and I don't feel like making an account. I always enjoy the show and this one especially because I find the influence of historical events on different industries interesting. Great takes, laughs, and guests as always, three out of five stars wouldn't change a thing. My t-shirt size is XL.
Not sure it is an American “blunder” (aside from the price point) but I’m curious as to your take on the rise and demise of MOTUS Motorcycles. I’ve never ridden one, but the MST or MST-R is my unicorn dream bike.
Agree. Not sure if it was a blunder as far as function, but it was in price sadly. They used the absolute best parts in all their iterations and the general public just couldn't afford to buy them.
RIP Motus!
Great podcast and perfect duration for doing the maintance of the starter motor on my DR650
Willie G. Is STILL living!!! 🤘
Patrick Garvin is my hero.
While you guys focused a lot on Harley, and all of it fair (and I say that as a current Harley owner), I would love to hear you guys touch on Indian's tried and failed revivals. And a touch on some of the history of bikes from the pre war era. Ace motorcycle company and Whizzer kits. Any one of them could have changed American motorcycle history pretty drastically if they didn't fail.
About the chopper crazy, with the right marketing America will buy what your selling and Snoop dogs got one I wait one
I think the Indian Challenger is an ugly bike. I like the engine, but no way would I buy one. I also think the Harley LowRider ST is ugly. I am interested in the Bronx if it isn't priced way too high. I am betting it will be priced at least as high as the Indian FTR which is too much.
A surprisingly great show! Surprising because of the subject, not the participants. Patrick Garvin is a great and funny guest. More, more, more!!! It was cathartic to hear his, well deserved, criticism of some of the blunders in HDs past. Finally, a worthwhile discussion of the “L” word (Lifestyle). Most consumer product companies on this planet sell some form of “Lifestyle”. This beer makes you more attractive… (well sometimes it does… until daylight…). This car/truck/SUV makes you adventurous (Hmmm great name for a bike… the NFG ADVENTURE R has a nice ring to it). The difference between HD and other companies is that the other companies put much more effort into R&D, and modernizing their products. If only there were motorcycle manufacturers that produce models respectful of their heritage and modern motorcycles with high performance… (Ducati, Triumph, BMW…). I remember several friends who swore that they are done with Ducati… when they went to liquid cooling. They of course bought and immensely enjoyed their liquid cooled 1098/1198 twins. Then their heads exploded when the top end Ducati sportbikes went to V4. They were done! They now swear that the Streetfighter S is the best motorcycle ever made, anything less is for the unwashed masses!
Maybe HD can even have a sister brand that built more modern bikes… oh wait…. Bye bye Buell. So, in reality, HD has had a colossal failure of leadership, unlike the three motorcycle manufacturers I mentioned. Maybe the Livewire spin off can start to rectify HDs trajectory.
The chopper craze/clusterf… can hopefully be remembered… and mocked for a very long time! The trinket laden theme bikes were nothing more than product placement. A lame joke on all those that watched that swill.
An American manufacturer in SBK/MotoGp would be awesome. The technology and engineering talent exists. Put Richard Stanbolli together with Katec and sit back and watch the awesome creations.
I would have been interested in opinions on how Indian collapsed . Underlying causes etc.
Don't forget that the Aftermarket builds Improved Variants of HD Engines.. They have better crank shafts better oil pumps ect.. For every Problem an HD has there is an aftermarket Solution to Improve it ..
I'd rather just buy a good bike from the factory tbh
Micheal Cycyz, did a MotoGP project which was interesting and then went on to do a TT electric bike which did well, like John Britten died to young and the company disappeared, that was a shame, he was great competition to the Honda Mugen electric bike, after he stopped Honda had no real competition. The change in engine size killed the MotoGP project but it was a very clever and interesting engine.
I worked for AMF proper... it sucked. No wonder they destroyed Harley back in the day.
The recent Harley news pretty much ensured that I will never invest my money in their products. They are completely out of touch with the larger motorcycle market. Harley's recent business decisions are terrible and I won't feel pity if the company goes under.
You bring up Harley being a lifestyle brand. That maybe for some, but it maybe more a brand associated with why people ride. I ride more for relaxation (endorphins). As I have gotten older my need for speed (adrenaline) has been replaced with a desire to enjoy traveling on an machine that is as relaxed as I want to be. 😀
You guys need to wrap your heads around a long podcast being okay. I listen to Whiskey Throttle (which is generally excellent btw) and the PulpMX show, both of which can run up to 4 or even 5 hours. Longform is FINE!!! Maybe even preferred. Great shows guys, longer would be good.
I read that HD paid $100 Million for Alta and owns their technology and Patents.. and KTM bought the actual manufacturing facilities and parts ect. but can't use Alta technology because HD owns them ..
I'm guilty of still wanting a chopper in the collection. Finding one that is either tasteful or not a pile of parts, however, is pretty much impossible. I've decided I'm just going to build one.
There is no replacement for displacement ..
Indian Larry always tried to built bikes that were ridable had decent handling and braking ect.
Choppers were for custom built bike shows.. Not very practical to ride..
Even as a European, I enjoyed this episode. I think it'll make a good series.
Polaris Owns an Engineering Co in Switzerland .. as they say here Swiss Auto..
HD ad Porche design the V-Rod Engine
Didn't Harley beat Indian in the King of the Bagger race with their antiquated air cooled 131 engine?
FACTS.
Buell was in WSB.
But to my knowledge, they never actually won.
@@SpurgeonDunbar correct, they didn't, and it was extremely underfunded. Which goes along with your premise about sport bikes and American manufacturers. Having said that though, Honda hasn't won in WSB for a while either!
@@andypreston6899 Imagine if HD would have bought/saved Motus and build a mass produced bike off of that platform.
@@SpurgeonDunbar As a Brit living in CA, the thing that is often missed is the differences in roads. You slightly touched on it about the Brit bikes being lighter etc, European vehicles are designed for smaller roads and going fast around corners. American vehicles are built for sitting on a freeway on a pretty much straight line for hours. Think Vette vs a Porsche. Different markets and mentality, Ford even softened the suspension on my Focus due to the crappier roads in the US, and less need for sharp handling. As you said 40% is lifestyle, and lifestyle doesn't buy sportsbikes, since they are regarded as organ donors. Honestly, I think if I were to start a new motorbike company, it would be building non-ugly Pan Americans, most likely with Chinese parts to be price competitive. That's what kills any new manufacture.
The chopper phase failed because the people buying them were not life long enthusiasts interested in actually riding. They were fad followers who wanted to look cool. The fad died, they went away.
It would be great if they had someone on who genuinely loves Harleys to even out the perspective. Used to be Lemmy who would give great insight into how Harley people actually think now nobody provides that side of the argument. They seem to only care about sport bikes, supermotos or adv bikes.
I work 12 hours shift, I listen to you guys over 30 hours a week, and when I go home I watch the reviews......ext I need a shirt lol
Buell-er? Buell-er? Buell-er?
I’m a fairly new viewer of HSLS. I’ve enjoyed each episode. This sure beats Orange County Choppers:) Patrick is certainly a solid citizen of the industry. He reminds me a little of Dan Binks. Smart point made about the competitiveness of American motorcycles in international Motorsport. Our ambivalence towards building racing machines is as perplexing as the USMNT inability to win a World Cup. Sports is practically a hard science in the USA. We produce exceptional athletes, have the best training facilities, top coaches and physicians. Just as we have the best engineering schools, technology, and financial wherewithal to create a machine equal to or better than any import. But we lack a manufacturer with the capability to do so. American racers have dominated Supercross, Motocross de Nations and MotoGP for 40 years. Wouldn’t it be something if they were riding an American machine as they take another checkered flag. Really enjoyed the retrospective of Harley too. It’s amazing that they maintain such a market share in this country. Even more amazing that an American entrepreneur hasn’t filled the void between their products and the imports. Looking forward to viewing more episodes of HSLS.
You overlooked Buell and their superbike racing efforts.
It's amazing to me how people just insist on bagging on Harleys, and the Evo bikes especially. It's absolutely a fair argument that Harley Davidson has been a company that uses outdated technology. But on the flipside, Evolution engines have been some of the most reliable long term engines made. There's been so many arguments stating Harley Davidson engines are unreliable, and don't hold up, but I've seen these engines take extreme abuse, and keep on running. These engines aren't gonna run with today's liquid/water cooled engines, but they weren't meant to. One thing anyone should understand, is bikes appeal to different riders for different reasons. These bikes are really good machines when you keep in mind what they're designed for. Harley Davidson is about the attitude, the cruiser market, the custom market. The The Evo Sportster engine has been a mainstay for nearly 40 years. Their not necessarily the best motorcycle made, but that's a title that truthfully can't be given to any motorcycle, because it all depends on personal preference. I look at it like this. I don't like the high end sport bike scene, and many other genres as well. But that doesn't change the fact that they are good (if not amazing) motorcycles. I think it's ridiculous that people just live to give Harley Davidson flack. They don't need to like them, but why do they feel the need to dog em. Harley Davidson is a company that has chops, whether someone likes them or not. And don't get me wrong, I don't like every model, but I love the company. I love the new models as well as the old. I also love other brands as well. Motorcycles in general are awesome, and all brands can be really cool, depending on one's personal interests. But I don't think it's fair to call them junk, when that's just not the case
Well said. To add to my story about buying a new CB750 (above) because I couldn't afford a Harley, I rode that motorcycle all over the place for 22 years until I could afford a Harley FLHTCU in 1994. It's a bike built to carry two big people comfortably on long trips. I've ridden it, two-up, for over 100,000 miles - that's 40 oil changes, with no problems in 26 years! I love my carberated Harley!
The Excelsior-Henderson Motorcycle Company
As a kid growing up during the tv chopper craze I loved the bike Jesse James made. Me and my dad used to watch the show all the time. I still have some of the model bikes they sold in the box. I loved the bikes that came from that era. The drama not so much.
Thanks guys! I learned a few things today...
Harley guys are in denial and don't like change. Buell and Vrods are the 2 best bikes ever to come out of H.D.
Loved the story about Willie G and the Britten. I was at the show and could have stared at that bike all day.
Polaris has a Partnership with Zero Motorcycles. Polaris has Electric Utility and Military vehicles in Production with Zero Technology .
There is a German Company building an amazing Motocross Bikes in Spite of HD Snuffing Alta..
They should have kept Buell and then turned them loose with these new generation water cooled twins. Buell wasn't losing money. There was no need to shut them down. I remember seeing their Buell Battle twin at a bike show in 82 or 83 and drooling over it. It felt like the cockpit of a fighter from WW2.
You're the only podcast I listen to on TH-cam
Indian was a 1 Generation Family business and HD was a 3 Generation Family owned business..
Indian had too many model and parts changes.. HD's used the same ole parts year after year..
General Motors was always good at standardizing parts from brand to grand under the GM Brand Umbrella ..
I miss lemmy!
I think a big part of the failing is the general mentality of isolationism and America first thought that many have/had. If you don't want to compete beyond your country it will be hard to improve within that bubble. It's not easy to accept that competitors are better but you have to accept it, learn and improve.
Otherwise you don't really have a global market push and it's not really good business sense to avoid that.
In any case I do not mind buying American made but it has to be well made also. Sometimes the reason for buying it being for the "image"isn't enough.
I enjoyed this discussion and really look forward to having this on other regions.
HD Invented the Lifestyle to push their Motorcycles.. It was Genius Marketing..
Yes people buy Indian for the name and Heritage. Also bad and Greedy Harley Dealers push people to Indian .. There definitely is an Indian Tax on accessories too ..
About 2 years ago a friend bought a big dog chopper and only paid 6000 dollars from a Harley dealer
I know I've heard each podcast episode at least twice, my preferred ones probably 3-5x. ...but my app (the old PocketCasts**) doesn't give a count, and 1/4 of the listens are via TH-cam (like this one! Ha.)
**Still! Never could get into the post-acquisition new interface.
Good conversation guys. Patrick should be included in more episodes in my opinion. He rounds out the total team experiences.
I have to say, prior to the actual conversation topic but still related, everyone missed the point on the Low Rider ST. This is not a King of the Baggers wanna be, this bike is very clearly patterned after the FXDXT from the early 2000’s. The FXDXT and it’s sister bikes FXDX and FXDXP are the root of the club style bikes that Sons of Anarchy made famous for the mainstream audience. The fairing is a good replica of the FXDXT fairing. The bags/cases are less successful representations.
Also, for traditional Harley riders in general, the Revolution Max is not what people want in a traditional cruiser or touring bike.These people want loud, rumbling air-cooled V-Twins that make a lot of torque and get attention wherever they go.
Comparisons were made between the street glide and the Challenger. The Indian a very good bike that is technically better than the Street Glide in almost every aspect. Yet, traditional American big twin riders overwhelmingly buy street glides or road glides. This goes back to my previous point about the engines. The target people don’t care if Indian’s has more power, tech or modern features. They want the rumble that comes with a big Harley v-twin. Patrick should have known these things.
To put it in perspective, arguing that a Rev Max Harley cruiser/bagger would be better than the current bike is like Spurgeon arguing that a KTM ADV bike is “better” than a R1250GS. The people spending money on ADV bikes say different regardless of specs and performance abilities.
What do you think about Keanu's ARCH motorcycles? I don't think you ever mentioned one of those in HSLS, I wonder why?
Boutique bike that no one can afford……
All this talk about US manufacturers not making a sport bike, and yet Buell was hardly even talked about..
HD and Buell, of course.
1)- Wille G is still alive (91 as of this note), 2- my 2002 Vrod with OEM 1130cc engine (1st year) has 141k miles on it now as this “Expert” claims “ the Vrod Engine is a big piece of junk”. I rode it today.
"Grumbling like Pop Eye." LOL. 😄
King of the Baggers Via Japan is the Yamaha V-Max..... The Honda Gold Wing has good all around performance too ..
Not the V-Max or GL, that's apples vs oranges. The Yamaha Eluder or Kawasaki Vaquero would be more apt. And they would get smoked, unless they stepped up their game.
along with the chopper craze I would add the big wheel bagger craze also
Made it to 37:42 and Spurgeon already lost it at 93rwhp from the 117cui, at the mention of the development cycle and engineering needed behind the fairing and saddlebags und now barely can keep the laughter at bay when the final introduction of aluminium heads was mentioned. Am I right if I reckon he does not think fondly of the breakthroughs in development at HD ?
Harley hasn’t had a breakthrough in development since the 1940s.
auto adjusting ride height or whatever the system is called that's on the Pan America, the one which lowers the height of the motorcycle when you come to a stop. First manufacturer to have it, and I believe they came out with it a couple years after 1940, sometime around 2021...
Those AMF bikes were craptastic. My friends owned them and I got tired of pushing them. My Triumphs were not too much better.
"If it ain't leaking oil, it needs more oil."
-Harley Davidson
That’s total loss oiling for you..
@OhioGuy82 upside: you never need to change the oil, because it's always being changed.
Gentlemen...best episode of HS/LS ever. It's about time onee of yuze YTtubers brought up the chopper craze of the late 90s ,early 2000s. But Spourgeon, Zack...you stinkin' millennials! We're Americans! At that time choppers we're cool. Loud, fire breathing monstrosities that were the envy if the world. How many kids went back to shop class after Jesse James came in TV? Yes, I agree the reality TV shitshow of the era set us back 50 years, but I thought yuze guys were a little hard in that era. It was a worldwide fad, like any fad, came and went. But it put people on bikes ...and isn't that what it's all about? We are edging to a world where soon, nobody will know how to operate a clutch ..and isn't that part of becoming one with the motorcycle? Give that era it's due.. we're Americans! Big, loud. and fast! Rethink that era..please
seriously though, some brands are less reliable / more prone to have issues. if i didn't have first hand knowledge, i probably wouldn't believe it either. but a friend of mine (yes i consider this first hand knowledge because i know and interact with this person in real life and saw the issues myself) bought a 390 Duke and it had non-stop electrical problems. nothing major, but imo a modern machine should not have electrical issues ever. ...we've got this stuff figured out. for it to have that type of issue means either extremely bad design or unimaginably low quality (or old) electrical components. i say unimaginably low because even low quality these days would be pretty reliable.
i don't know if you guys know about this stuff and pretend not to so they'll keep sending you machines to test, or if you genuinely don't know. i understand you can't report something that you haven't experienced first hand, so it's certainly possible you "don't know" about it, but surely you can get ahold of some numbers that show how often different manufacturers need unscheduled maintenance and perhaps for what.
What? A KTM with reliability issues? Say it isn't so!
I think what Zack was referring to here (and previously) is the design of motorcycles today, and that they all (within margins for intended purpose) are good motorcycles in that they handle well, perform well, are comfortable, are enjoyable to ride, etc... They don't have the time and resources to buy a fleet of bikes and ride them for 10k miles to evaluate their reliability.
But, to be fair, Zack wasn't precise in his statement, and it could he construed that he was also saying that there is no significant difference in parts quality between manufacturers. He/they should either be more precise, or gather data from other reliable sources to augment their reviews and discussions.
IMO if KTM would spend some time addressing their reliability issues, they would sell significantly more bikes. I might be a KTM owner now, if they had done that years ago.
Excuse my lack of knowledge, what happened to Buel?
Several things:
1. The briefest mention of Victory Motorcycles and its demise at Polaris' hand was definitely too brief. Why was it so glossed over?
2.. The creation, purchase, and shutdown of Buell Motorcycles was barely covered, and the topic of EBR and its potential, followed by a quick shuttering was also not covered at all. This was a true contender for racing by an American company, that was an answer for Mr. Courts.
3. There is a new American motorcycle manufacturing company that will arise within the next decade, and it will be brought to you by yours truly, and a talented team. We're working on something big.
Guys, never forget that there is a huge portion of the American motorcyclist that rides American machines. And to a lot of what you guys are talking about, the way American motorcycle companies work, comes down to culture. Americans do as Americans do. Let's take soccer, as an example (Zack will relate): Americans call it a field, out of bounds, soccer, extra time, PKs, etc, despite what the rest of the world is doing. The same applies to motorcycling. Americans will always walk to the beat of their own drum, because culturally, they're different.
As always, great job guys! Always a pleasure to watch and listen to (mostly listen, while commuting, on days that I drive).
Of course Victory's demise was at the hands of Polaris, Victory has always been a wholly owned subsidiary of Polaris. I preferred Victory's style over Indian FWIW. But I also understand why they did what they did. When that damn vacuum cleaner salesman pulled the plug on Buell and then bought MV Agusta, that was a real dark time. A lot of people are still pretty salty about it.
A Bronx could have me take a look at HD. But if it’s the same price or higher than a Triumph Rocket 3 then No way.
The discussion of American m/c industry blunders was fascinating. It reminded me how grateful to Honda American M/C I am now, and will always be, for making my entry, into Motorcycling possible as a young man back in in 1970. The Harleys we're not affordable, but I could afford a used CB350 and a year later, a brand new CB750K1. A lifelong motor life started for me despite the Slugardly American motor industry that wouldn't accommodate entry-level motors for youngsters. And thanks to Motorcycling, I'm still a youngster! Thanks, guys, for HSLS! It's always a hoot!
That rever app is the hardest online/app thing I have ever tried to navigate 30 min later app was deleted
THE DRAMA AND THE MUSTACHES!
My apologies, I spelled Beull incorrectly previously. Nevertheless, what occurred?
I was hoping instead of the Harley ST's . I was hoping for a Low Rider S with the new Revmax motor.
Plandemic = Social Distancing a good fit for riding a Motorcycle. Really high gas prices .. make a Motorcycle more affordable transportation ..
Indian didn't have the good fortune of having an AMF bail them out so they folded in 1953. "Bad but necessary" for AMF to buy Harley was well stated.
the OCC chopper years were a necessary evil because it's a good example of what not to do. if it hadn't happened as it did, ie., gotten so big that everyone knew about it, then we wouldn't ALL know how ridiculous it was. like, we're grown up now, and know not to do that. in other words, there's seriously good reason behind all the r&d in rake and trail and exhaust tuning and ergonomics, etc. a guy in his garage can do it, but not without lots of prior knowledge and testing.
From a motorcycling perspective, I see OCC in the light of the old quote “that there is no such thing as bad publicity.” OCC may have gotten people interested in motorcycles who never before had such interest and that is likely a good thing.
There's plenty of justified criticism of Harley but Harley did not kill Alta or shut them down. Harley invested in Alta with the plan to form a partnership in developing a new electric motorcycle (there were concept pictures floating around online). This investment was NOT an acquisition and Harley did not own Alta. Obviously at some point during this brief partnership Harley decided it didn't like the direction the partnership was going (likely conflicting ideas of what this new project should be), and with that they ended the partnership. Harley is not a charity to keep Alta a float if its not also benefiting them. Harley did not just come in and take Alta "tech" and run. There is no Alta tech on Livewire, which was already nearing production, and is significantly different in design to Alta's vehicles. Even the upcoming Livewire products that have been teased share basically no similarity to Alta designs apart from using cylindrical cells (which is not some secret Alta design). Alta was clearly not sustainable on their own and should have found other investors or found a way to keep Harley interested.
I have to disagree. Everything I have read points to Harley never being serious about Alta other than eliminating them as competition, much as they have done in racing as was well-described in this video. Harley’s definition of “competition” has never been to make a superior product, but rather to try to make other products inferior to theirs so they can sell there junk.
@@LTVoyager How did Harley eliminate them as competition...by investing in them? Harley ending their partnership put Alta right back to where they were before the partnership started. Also Alta wasn't really a competitor to Harley's electric ambitions. The two companies have basically no overlap product...Alta made dirt bikes and Harley makes street bikes. If Harley wanted to shut down competition they would target Zero or Energica...companies that actually had models that compete against Livewire.
You guys failed to mention companies such as EBR making a resurgence with some competitive high performance bikes. What would have been cool is if HD bought Motus and used their V4 baby block in some more sport oriented bikes!
Shame on harley for how they destroyed Alta. Classic American monopoly mentality. Pure greed.
The irony of a man who rode a lawnmower engined mini bike for 400 miles calling choppers silly. That’s hilarious.
Still not adopting the Britten V1000 as a template for the future.
Weight 138 kg.
166 HP @ 11,800 rpm.
Maximum rpm 12,500 rpm.
Maximum speed 303 km/h.
I’ll never understand why Harley doesn’t have dirt bike products like they had in the 70s.
Profit margins, accessories, image.
Those were aeromacchi enduros rebranded as HD
Because not enough people will buy them.
Common tread MotoGP bike would be fantastic
I just don't get how harley makes such little hp out of big ci. The Bronx is the only harley that everyone wants. And with the custom choppers now they're working 7-12k. I hate theme bikes as well Patrick, they look so terrible.
Just bought motul chain cleaner
Good message brothers
I never understood why someone would buy an american motorcycle:; Noisy, heavy, expensive gas-guzzlers that don't ride well and leak oil... but, misteryosly, they sell a lot here in Brazil! The Orange County choppers being the ultimate freak show. Thank you guys to explain the reason.
You guys are unfairly conflating a LOT of the custom builders in the early 2000s with OCC reality tv. What you missed here is that the boom opened a lot of eyes to the idea that bikes could be looked at as pieces of art, rather than heavily advertised mass-market machines that previously dominated. We’ve drifted away from that back into an era where we exhaustively review and dissect everything corporations pump out, and the truly amazing builders and craftspeople are niche interests again.
How did Beull fall?
more of Patrick!