Respect for putting up a video of something that you were unfamiliar with. This really helps people to realise that we are not alone when we tackle things and learn as we go
Hi Richard. Don't praise me too much. I was thinking out loud I did charge. I don't know if there will be a part three, but due to my input, we were able to get the system working. I put them in contact with a local heating engineer to rectify a fault in the heating system.
@@eastwayelectrical ha ha - yeah I wrote that comment whilst still watching - all good - you got it working. Love the fault finding videos - keep up great work
Amazon has a nice crimp clamp with 3 different jaws for different types of crimps. It works well. I bought one as I am working with some led drivers at 5volts and a lot of leds so the current can be quite heavy so need high gauge cables and a good crimp connector is less worry.
Typically with panels, your switch normally goes to a relay, and the relay will control the contactor in the circuit, and I would not be surprised if the relay is faulty. On the inside of the panel at the top, the connector blocks on the Din rale will be your test points, but considering they likely never had the schematics, you've got to start from scratch! Measuring the voltage on A1 and A2 would show if the voltage is skipping (which may confirm a relay issue typically) which is why I imagine they thought the neutral was at fault at first. There is so many fault finding techniques you can use, but it all depends on what the panel is controlling. Nice video!
Did you speak to anyone from Total Control again? I’m an engineer for Total Control, looks like a very simple fix for one of our engineers. It looked like there was a fault on the grunfos pumps pumps when you got them running. They looks fairly new so it looks like people have been in and made changes.
You push the switch body onto the Escutcheon Plate (the handle section and shaft that is splined to fit) once the plate is fixed to the panel, usually using a large plastic lock nut, then lock the two sections together using the red lever. Its really easy when you know how. Contacts vary across switch types and there are a very large number of them. You have to make sure you get replacement switches with the same code too, something like A201, there are lots of different codes that identifies the switch and contact arrangement.
Do you have a thermal imager Del? They have revealed panel faults for me so many times i've lost count! That faulty switch would have been showing sign of heat as it was likely arcing internally.
Great video Delroy. Here in the us most electricians don't mess with control panels, especially if they have to do with HVAC equipment. Do HVAC techs there not deal with things like this in the UK, as this is something I've definitely worked on. Also for contactors what I like to do is just take the old one out and connect each wire like for like instead of just disconnecting all the wires at once. also you don't need forked connectors, bare wire is fine as those plates will hold it snug if you tighten it properly
industrial or actual commercial electricians do panels but domestics are generally what5 we call house bashers and really only know basic controls but tend to think they know more because they do some testing
Del great video i watch your channel al the time. Try putting the switch in the she same way you removed it IE the red lever that releases it hold it in the release position and put key switch in and release lever should lock it in place .
The reason you have 2 blacks is because its common to loop the neutral on the coil, the A1 on the coil being the live will be switched from a stat or similar hence there being only one of them whereas the neutrals will common across the lot
You say you couldn't charge the customer, but you have to think about you as well, all the time it has taken you could have been on another job the cost of petrol for all the running around back and forth to the job and the phone calls you made and apart from just the switch not fitting you did get it going. it is one thing to be good to the customer but you still have bills to pay 👍
@alvina69 it's called life if you don't get the service you think next time you go elsewhere you don't go to a restaurant eat a steak then afterwards say no that wasn't up to my standard you still have to pay the bill but next time you don't go to that restaurant
@alvina69 he found the fault it was the switch if the one that came from the shop also had a fault which stopped him from fitting it to the door it doesn't matter even if he called a third party which he did the new switch is being fitted it was all down to him not the caretaker of the church and the problem will be fixed .you could be called out on a complex job with lots of wiring to find a fault spend all day searching for it and still not find the fault but you still get paid for your time
@alvina69 if you watch the video when he hard wired it without the switch in the circuit the pump came on that's how he new it was the switch the only problem was the new switch would not fix to the door that is why the third party the manufacturer whose box it was was coming to just help
@alvina69 then you must be ridiculous ! Every trade knows 95% of what they do but you always come up against something that needs more attention, that's why, if you are an electrician you have a thing called a OSG, it's almost impossible to know every fitting or accessory that has ever been made or if it was ever wired correctly in the first place in the 60s 70s. The code book I think, was just used for putting your cup of tea on . If you had to called out any trade there would be a call out charge
Yeah your unfortunately the wrong man for the job. I was a panel wirer for 10 years straight out of school. I’ve since done domestic electrical work and data. Panel wiring is like nothing else. Schematics are totally different etc etc. if you ever get a fault with a panel you need a qualified engineer in that sector generally to come out and test sequences to find the fault, we know exactly what is what it would be much quicker for us to test and rectify. The panel owner doesn’t have to hire the same manufacturing company of the panel just a panel building engineer. There’s loads out there !
When you go to a job they are paying for all the knowledge that you had to pay for by going to college your time you could be doing other things your tools that you payed for and the petrol in your van all this has to be taken into the equation you can't work for free or you will end up out of business 👍and listen to your son more 😀
@oninbridders because he turned up and he found the fault which turned out to be the switch, just because the second switch didn't fit its not his fault it may also have had a fault on the fixing that connected it to the door
usually those contactors are powered by DC so if its buzzing its allowing AC on the coil that is closing the contacts so its like a buzzing relay the contacts are opening and closing at the line frequency hence the buzzing sound which is the most annoying thing ever, instead of holding the closed position when powered on.
Del, that system looks like an over-engineered piece of shite. Good on you for giving it a go. Let us know the final outcome. Did you actually get the bloody heat turned on for Christmas?
On the contrary, this is on par with a good big electrical panel; numbered ferrules and a nice clear layout. But big panels like this are a PITA to fault find if you have no documentation. Takes ages to get brought up to speed only to find a simple fault.
Get a skilled electrical engineer who specialise in this stuff not a electrician. Would be an easy job guaranteed 1 hour and the fault would be diagnosed. One simple test input to output or vice versa but that sounds like it voltage related to the coil causing the noise. See what rge control voltage is at a1 and a2 to start with if under said voltage work backwards from there until you find the fault. 😂 easy work for a skilled engineer not just winging it trying to change out random parts which aint at fault. Go see mike page ( residual current) he'll get you going. Very skilled and competent in his field with a passion for this stuff easy work.
Some of the big controls companies charge £800 a day rate , the church would not want to pay for that, Thats a very simple panel but if you dont do that sort of work its very different from domestic sparky, A good commercial gas man should have been able to sort that out as he works along with that stuff all the time
You could mark the cables before removing by using a coloured marker and put varied number of stripes on the cable insulation, that said with a decent board they should have numbered ring tags fitted like on the door.Taking a picture before hand is always a good idea as you can refer back to it. With the switch, it may be they gave you the wrong part number (EDIT) I meant to add about the bill, yes you had an agreement to work on the unit and didn't promise a fix it ,so parts and labour are chargable.
@@fromthetoon1602 writing on inside of sockets what circut they go to is the best tip i ever heard, for marking order i usually carry a big box of coloured zip ties and and 1 of blace, mard order then clamp group down
That contactor box looks like one of the simpler setups we have at work, but without a schematics it's always going to be a challenge. Bad documentation is way too common. Should be possible to charge a little at least if you got it running.
Respect for putting up a video of something that you were unfamiliar with. This really helps people to realise that we are not alone when we tackle things and learn as we go
Best part of the job. Keeps you on your toes
This guys knowledge of electrical systems is brilliant
Gave it a good go Del - and fair play for not charging - keep up the great videos
Hi Richard. Don't praise me too much. I was thinking out loud I did charge. I don't know if there will be a part three, but due to my input, we were able to get the system working. I put them in contact with a local heating engineer to rectify a fault in the heating system.
@@eastwayelectrical ha ha - yeah I wrote that comment whilst still watching - all good - you got it working. Love the fault finding videos - keep up great work
Del, as you didn’t have any crimp ends try bending the wire in a “ h” the it will go both side of the fixing bolt.
Amazon has a nice crimp clamp with 3 different jaws for different types of crimps. It works well. I bought one as I am working with some led drivers at 5volts and a lot of leds so the current can be quite heavy so need high gauge cables and a good crimp connector is less worry.
Hi John, thanks for the advice and thanks for watching
Typically with panels, your switch normally goes to a relay, and the relay will control the contactor in the circuit, and I would not be surprised if the relay is faulty. On the inside of the panel at the top, the connector blocks on the Din rale will be your test points, but considering they likely never had the schematics, you've got to start from scratch! Measuring the voltage on A1 and A2 would show if the voltage is skipping (which may confirm a relay issue typically) which is why I imagine they thought the neutral was at fault at first. There is so many fault finding techniques you can use, but it all depends on what the panel is controlling. Nice video!
Nice comment...... You can learn a lot from peoples experiencs with comments like these.
Thanks for watching.
Did you speak to anyone from Total Control again? I’m an engineer for Total Control, looks like a very simple fix for one of our engineers.
It looked like there was a fault on the grunfos pumps pumps when you got them running. They looks fairly new so it looks like people have been in and made changes.
You push the switch body onto the Escutcheon Plate (the handle section and shaft that is splined to fit) once the plate is fixed to the panel, usually using a large plastic lock nut, then lock the two sections together using the red lever. Its really easy when you know how. Contacts vary across switch types and there are a very large number of them. You have to make sure you get replacement switches with the same code too, something like A201, there are lots of different codes that identifies the switch and contact arrangement.
Sounds like you know your stuff; thanks for watching.
As a commercial gas engineer training to be an electrician this is very interesting. Thanks for uploading.
Do you have a thermal imager Del? They have revealed panel faults for me so many times i've lost count! That faulty switch would have been showing sign of heat as it was likely arcing internally.
Nothing wrong del Roy good try
Enjoyed the video Delroy, if we don't challenge ourselves we can't progress. Be good to have a canary wharf part 2.
Hi! Delroy I love to watch your video and honestly like you talking about this video thanks keep the good job
Delroy you always do great video some people you work for some time rude keep up the good work gary
Hi Gary. Thanks for watching.
Great video Delroy. Here in the us most electricians don't mess with control panels, especially if they have to do with HVAC equipment. Do HVAC techs there not deal with things like this in the UK, as this is something I've definitely worked on. Also for contactors what I like to do is just take the old one out and connect each wire like for like instead of just disconnecting all the wires at once. also you don't need forked connectors, bare wire is fine as those plates will hold it snug if you tighten it properly
industrial or actual commercial electricians do panels but domestics are generally what5 we call house bashers and really only know basic controls but tend to think they know more because they do some testing
Respect del it’s a learning curve Respect
Del great video i watch your channel al the time. Try putting the switch in the she same way you removed it IE the red lever that releases it hold it in the release position and put key switch in and release lever should lock it in place .
I think you were brave to take on panel faults. It's more of a specialist job Stay clear in future
The reason you have 2 blacks is because its common to loop the neutral on the coil, the A1 on the coil being the live will be switched from a stat or similar hence there being only one of them whereas the neutrals will common across the lot
I've just continued watching the video and you figured it out, nevermind haha
Hi Darko. Thanks for your comments and for watching.
I find with a Grunfos pumps a quick sharp whack with a hammer on the casting helps.
Have you looked at any panel timers I know I’ve had it before when a timers internal electronics have failed?
Trace the control circuit for the contactor and work back mate
Check all connections, what's the voltage on the relays?
Pump switch faulty???😮
You say you couldn't charge the customer, but you have to think about you as well, all the time it has taken you could have been on another job the cost of petrol for all the running around back and forth to the job and the phone calls you made and apart from just the switch not fitting you did get it going. it is one thing to be good to the customer but you still have bills to pay 👍
@alvina69 it's called life if you don't get the service you think next time you go elsewhere you don't go to a restaurant eat a steak then afterwards say no that wasn't up to my standard you still have to pay the bill but next time you don't go to that restaurant
@alvina69 he found the fault it was the switch if the one that came from the shop also had a fault which stopped him from fitting it to the door it doesn't matter even if he called a third party which he did the new switch is being fitted it was all down to him not the caretaker of the church and the problem will be fixed .you could be called out on a complex job with lots of wiring to find a fault spend all day searching for it and still not find the fault but you still get paid for your time
U get paid to do the job he didn’t so how can u charge your point makes no sense
@alvina69 if you watch the video when he hard wired it without the switch in the circuit the pump came on that's how he new it was the switch the only problem was the new switch would not fix to the door that is why the third party the manufacturer whose box it was was coming to just help
@alvina69 then you must be ridiculous ! Every trade knows 95% of what they do but you always come up against something that needs more attention, that's why, if you are an electrician you have a thing called a OSG, it's almost impossible to know every fitting or accessory that has ever been made or if it was ever wired correctly in the first place in the 60s 70s. The code book I think, was just used for putting your cup of tea on . If you had to called out any trade there would be a call out charge
One thing I would recommend,take a photo of the conractor and connection cable should be number
Aren't they the drawings at the bottom of the panel?
Hi Norman. There were schematics in a wallet on the panel door. Thanks for watching.
❤😂😊love you 😍 not all about the money
Yeah your unfortunately the wrong man for the job. I was a panel wirer for 10 years straight out of school. I’ve since done domestic electrical work and data. Panel wiring is like nothing else. Schematics are totally different etc etc. if you ever get a fault with a panel you need a qualified engineer in that sector generally to come out and test sequences to find the fault, we know exactly what is what it would be much quicker for us to test and rectify. The panel owner doesn’t have to hire the same manufacturing company of the panel just a panel building engineer. There’s loads out there !
So what happened in the end?
he didn't fix it. the pump had a fault.
Are the A1s linked across ? Maybe it's a dodgy connection at the beginning of the chain ?
Thanks for watching, couldn't tell you.
The A1s wouldn't be linked across otherwise all the contactors would go in at same time.
When you go to a job they are paying for all the knowledge that you had to pay for by going to college your time you could be doing other things your tools that you payed for and the petrol in your van all this has to be taken into the equation you can't work for free or you will end up out of business 👍and listen to your son more 😀
Knowledge he admitted he doesn't have. It really depends if the customer knew that at the start, then it would be shared responsibility.
You still get paid for turning up and getting your tools out of the van running around phoning the right people to get the answer to the problem
@oninbridders because he turned up and he found the fault which turned out to be the switch, just because the second switch didn't fit its not his fault it may also have had a fault on the fixing that connected it to the door
Those are true words. Thanks for watching.
usually those contactors are powered by DC so if its buzzing its allowing AC on the coil that is closing the contacts so its like a buzzing relay the contacts are opening and closing at the line frequency hence the buzzing sound which is the most annoying thing ever, instead of holding the closed position when powered on.
except they can't be running dc because there's no transformer in that panel
Del, that system looks like an over-engineered piece of shite. Good on you for giving it a go. Let us know the final outcome. Did you actually get the bloody heat turned on for Christmas?
The enclosure is a bit large but its not over-engineered if its been doing what it was designed to do since the 90's.
Yep, I did the temporary connection and got the panel going. However, a heating engineer had to do some work on the heating system.
On the contrary, this is on par with a good big electrical panel; numbered ferrules and a nice clear layout. But big panels like this are a PITA to fault find if you have no documentation. Takes ages to get brought up to speed only to find a simple fault.
no he didn't. that red flashing light on the pump means it has a fault. so that means they had no heating.
Del don't charge em be a real Mensch
Don't charge but increase your fees for the rest of the year 😂
They’ll have to light a bin 😭
Probably a faulty relay
I'd bill the church tripple. Or quadruple. They don't pay taxes so they have the money
Cheapskate keyswitch 👍
Get a skilled electrical engineer who specialise in this stuff not a electrician. Would be an easy job guaranteed 1 hour and the fault would be diagnosed. One simple test input to output or vice versa but that sounds like it voltage related to the coil causing the noise. See what rge control voltage is at a1 and a2 to start with if under said voltage work backwards from there until you find the fault. 😂 easy work for a skilled engineer not just winging it trying to change out random parts which aint at fault. Go see mike page ( residual current) he'll get you going. Very skilled and competent in his field with a passion for this stuff easy work.
Some of the big controls companies charge £800 a day rate , the church would not want to pay for that, Thats a very simple panel but if you dont do that sort of work its very different from domestic sparky, A good commercial gas man should have been able to sort that out as he works along with that stuff all the time
👍👍👍
You could mark the cables before removing by using a coloured marker and put varied number of stripes on the cable insulation, that said with a decent board they should have numbered ring tags fitted like on the door.Taking a picture before hand is always a good idea as you can refer back to it. With the switch, it may be they gave you the wrong part number (EDIT) I meant to add about the bill, yes you had an agreement to work on the unit and didn't promise a fix it ,so parts and labour are chargable.
@@fromthetoon1602 writing on inside of sockets what circut they go to is the best tip i ever heard, for marking order i usually carry a big box of coloured zip ties and and 1 of blace, mard order then clamp group down
Hi Andi. thanks for your comments and thanks for watching.
That contactor box looks like one of the simpler setups we have at work, but without a schematics it's always going to be a challenge. Bad documentation is way too common.
Should be possible to charge a little at least if you got it running.
Their is a lock nut that holds the key part of the switch to panel, then you clip on the contacts part of the key switch.
Thanks for watching. Sounds simple, but I couldn't do it. If there is a final part, you'll see how easy it was.