Why are you the only TH-cam photographer who's being this point blank about it? I love this kind of video and can't get enough because it seems like no one else is being real about the business.
I spent 46 yrs in Mkting/Advert/PR. I also sold TV spot for 4 yrs. I was VP at 3 agencies. With that as an introduction: Your comments are so spot on that you should give this speech at Business Chambers of Commerce, Advertising Association meetings...and other business associations and CHARGE a minimum of $1-5000 (us) per ticket. The wisdom you just shared is so right on target for the communications industry leaders and managers who service b2b , b2c both profit and non profit.... that it needs to be shared. The number of shops I have seen open and close because their owners don't get the concepts you've spoken about....was unnecessary. Some folks open a communications business without any understanding of what they are getting into. Thank you for re affirming a TRUTH. Your cat should be proud of you.
I actually get a good amount of work at higher prices because of cheap photographers. The only reason someone can honestly outbid me is because they are a hobbyist, doing the job part time or cutting corners. More often than not, with part time photographers you get part time service. I recently did headshots and marketing images for a law firm that had 3 different cheap photographers flake on them. Either the photographers had to cancel a scheduled shoot and/or they wanted to reschedule for a time inconvenient to the client. Barring me ending up in the hospital, and except at a clients request, I'm not rescheduling a shoot. Dealing largely with lawyers and realtors, I always plan for a shoot to start a little late and schedule my jobs accordingly. A part time photographer, squeezing shoots in between their day job or picking up their kids from school at a set time, typically can't do that. Another job I landed because of cheap photographers was for a construction company. They almost hired more than one cheap photographer, but as soon as they asked for proof of insurance(the shoot was on a construction site filled with heavy equipment) all the photographers made excuses as to why they couldn't do the job. The company was running out of time and I quoted them extra for the last minute booking. They happily paid my higher price. I've had clients relay horror stories of wannabe headshot photographers delivering terrible images, promising to fix them, and then literally changing their phone number/email address never to be heard from again. I feel bad for them getting ripped off, but some people need to learn the old adage 'buy once, cry once' the hard way. Those clients end up regularly referring me to friends/coworkers because they understand why I charge more. Don't get me wrong, like you and many other photographers I started out cheap and there's nothing wrong with that. Technically I started out doing free headshots for friends while still working a day job. Everyone needs to start somewhere. The big difference between me and many Craigslist photographers though is that I never made promises I couldn't deliver on nor took paying jobs I didn't know for certain I was capable of doing. I still don't charge Peter Hurley money but your average lawyer/realtor/doctor would never pay those prices anyway and there are far more of them than actors or Fortune 500 executives that will.
Well said. To the point and valuable. I once tried to land a major wallet company that spends 60k on photography a year. 3 weeks in my own time trying to match what they already had. They did not care. For them a photographer is not just photography but is also the marketing and creative consultant. They wanted to know what was hip and upcoming for next year / what style / color schemes / etc. They pay a decent amount - but not just for photography. They want a lot more. My photos were fine. But that is not what they were looking for. They expect to talk to a team of at least five, not just photography. Lesson learned
Ok but the real question is how the hell can you predict upcoming styles n shit ? And where to look for todays actualities ? biggest brands maybe ? Facebook groups ? I curious to know
I’ve heard that same complaint in every industry I’ve been involved with. My take on those complaining was they either had an overinflated sense of their worth (often based on unnecessary gear purchases) and/or were just incredibly insecure. I’m in complete agreement with your sentiment.
I find the phrase “they’re just not my client” is helpful. Fairly recently I had someone contact me, I gave them a quote of £3k, which was bargain basement for what they were getting, and they just said “we’ve seen someone who charges £300”. Suddenly realised that, even though they were a known contact, they just weren’t my client. No idea if they thought I was going to match the £300 quote, but it’s not a game I’m interested in playing.
Great video. A lot of it does have to do with newer photographers not knowing their worth. One of the most annoying things I hear is other photographers saying someone else is killing the market, taking their work, ect. Photography is more of a community than a competition. Just because you shoot something and the guy next to you shoots the same thing, it doesn't make them competition. Everyone also has their one styles and that is what draws customers in. There's still plenty of work out there for us that are serious about our work. I constantly refer clients to other photographers because their ideas are not my style, but I may know someone who is better at that style.
I've got one for you. I live in oakcliff Dallas a very poor mostly minority suburb. My photography career involves receiving invitations to kids birthday parties anniversaries sweet sixteen baptisms and occasionally weddings from locals who could never afford a photographer period. I shoot a nikon d850 I don't provide prints only jpegs that my "clients" can print at their discretion I'm an excellent photographer and I'm happy with what I do. You would be surprised how often I get people complaining that I'm killing their business despite the fact that the vast majority of my customers are on subsidized housing and food assistance.
Thank you for your insight on this common topic. Having been in the real estate brokerage and appraisal industry for many decades, I have personally experienced the same issue of lower priced competitors and have, long ago, come to the same conclusion that I needed to pitch prospects who actually needed and appreciated the quality of my experience and services. And, once I realized that, I found it much easier to identify and seek out my target market. Thanks again. I always appreciate your practical analyses.
I'm just shooting short documentary films for educational non-profits here in Santa Cruz, California, and it's like there's this mind-reading artistic food photographer across the globe in Leicester. Exactly what has been on my mind. One of my most practical subscriptions. - Dave
I am an amateur and do free publicity shots for a local charity. Whenever I am asked if I do weddings (never!) or other paying gigs I tell them to use a professional as I am not in the business of doing them out of work, but if they still want me because they know me and my work then I quote a commercial rate. However I always add the caveat that I am not a pro and they only pay if they like what they see, which takes the pressure off me if things don’t go well (that hasn’t happened yet). In the profession that pays my salary your words ring true, I turn away the type of work that I know others will do for less and at a lower standard than I am prepared to compete against, which means I can devote my time to good quality clients who return time and again and pay a decent fee. Years ago the best piece of advice I had was from a bank manager (remember those?) who told me not to be a busy fool, i.e. chasing every job no matter the cost.
Thank You for the excellent approach. Got me to subscribe and looking forward. Share the same thoughts over most comments. I'm at the point of holding to jobs and making also through photography. Nothing wrong with that and definitely to use the right path. Very helpful. cheers
Great video as always! I love your idea of nicheing down and becoming a specialist in you previous videos, just wondering how a big photographer like Karl Taylor can do all types of work from portrait, beauty, cosmetics, pruduct, to cars. Would love to hear your opinion on that.
I'm a cheap photographer for that very reason...I feel like I'm still learning. I tell people that point blank when we meet. If they want something more advanced they should really go to someone more skilled. Sometimes I take photos for free if it's something I have never done before so I can build my knowledge, but people know that beforehand. They are not going to get the same quality...or they might....who knows...we will see hahaha
Whether just starting or being a professional, charge what you see the job worth not your skillset. I see so many new photographers taking low paying gigs that barely pay for the gas and the time. Not to mention, it's easier to explain to a client why your prices are where they are when you start at a good spot than it is to explain to them why you raised your prices.
Nice talk about the cheap photographers attracting clients with low prices to take photographs. I have been seeing that some of the camera companies are making cameras with 1" digital sensors (13mm x 8mm) with zoom lens and a good f-stop for the size and I think it is giving the photographer wannabe's the idea that the can contend with the real professional photographers. I don't think that is good but it's out there.
I'm a hobbyist photographer, but if somebody would now ask me to shoot something for them, or want to buy one of my photographs for on the wall -- I'd just have NO IDEA what to charge for that. I suppose that a lot of beginning photographers are in a similar position: no idea of the value of their own work, no idea what the market is like, and afraid to charge something unrealistic.
I don't think the complaints are about the people that do it for half the price you do, I think the issue are the photographers that offer those "$50 mini session" that are advertised at 15 minute and 30 delivered photos kind of thing. Most people that aren't into photography wouldn't understand how bad of a deal that is, and why you are a better deal asking for $500-$1,000 for a couple of hours of shooting and maybe 10 delivered photos kind of thing. This is one of many reasons I stay far far away from the portrait photography world.
This is a really difficult situation for newer photographers. Most protogs don't display their pricing, so its difficult to get a comparison. You may not realise you're under or overcharging, and its probably not until you either start getting too much work, or not enough work that this becomes apparent. It's also an industry where basic business costs don't necessarily relate directly to a fee you can charge to cover them.
When you charge for photography you should be including business costs. Your time, your gear, your insurance, your bills, ect. All of that comes in to calculation when you break down what you are going to charge for a service. They you break down how many shoots you need to book to cover said expenses.
Part of what you say is truth. But in a small market where people are not educated, they will choose always the cheaper option. Therefore you will have no way to survive.
not every client is able to pay primium for photos , a small burger shop , will not have the same budget as mc donald , if you go to small burger place and tell him yee i want 1000$ to make you one photo , will be more like 10 per photo and ther are not many mc donald out ther , ,, most small medium company that want lot of images are douing , is much easy for them to just spend 2000 for a camera and lights , and hier a 20yo kid as full time staff photographer/ graphic desiner / web site manager /
Why are you the only TH-cam photographer who's being this point blank about it? I love this kind of video and can't get enough because it seems like no one else is being real about the business.
I think it's because TH-cam isn't his job so he doesn't have to fluff everything up to get views.
@@capturelightmedia, that is certainly a possibility.
I spent 46 yrs in Mkting/Advert/PR. I also sold TV spot for 4 yrs. I was VP at 3 agencies. With that as an introduction: Your comments are so spot on that you should give this speech at Business Chambers of Commerce, Advertising Association meetings...and other business associations and CHARGE a minimum of $1-5000 (us) per ticket. The wisdom you just shared is so right on target for the communications industry leaders and managers who service b2b , b2c both profit and non profit.... that it needs to be shared. The number of shops I have seen open and close because their owners don't get the concepts you've spoken about....was unnecessary. Some folks open a communications business without any understanding of what they are getting into. Thank you for re affirming a TRUTH. Your cat should be proud of you.
I actually get a good amount of work at higher prices because of cheap photographers. The only reason someone can honestly outbid me is because they are a hobbyist, doing the job part time or cutting corners. More often than not, with part time photographers you get part time service.
I recently did headshots and marketing images for a law firm that had 3 different cheap photographers flake on them. Either the photographers had to cancel a scheduled shoot and/or they wanted to reschedule for a time inconvenient to the client. Barring me ending up in the hospital, and except at a clients request, I'm not rescheduling a shoot. Dealing largely with lawyers and realtors, I always plan for a shoot to start a little late and schedule my jobs accordingly. A part time photographer, squeezing shoots in between their day job or picking up their kids from school at a set time, typically can't do that.
Another job I landed because of cheap photographers was for a construction company. They almost hired more than one cheap photographer, but as soon as they asked for proof of insurance(the shoot was on a construction site filled with heavy equipment) all the photographers made excuses as to why they couldn't do the job. The company was running out of time and I quoted them extra for the last minute booking. They happily paid my higher price.
I've had clients relay horror stories of wannabe headshot photographers delivering terrible images, promising to fix them, and then literally changing their phone number/email address never to be heard from again. I feel bad for them getting ripped off, but some people need to learn the old adage 'buy once, cry once' the hard way. Those clients end up regularly referring me to friends/coworkers because they understand why I charge more.
Don't get me wrong, like you and many other photographers I started out cheap and there's nothing wrong with that. Technically I started out doing free headshots for friends while still working a day job. Everyone needs to start somewhere. The big difference between me and many Craigslist photographers though is that I never made promises I couldn't deliver on nor took paying jobs I didn't know for certain I was capable of doing. I still don't charge Peter Hurley money but your average lawyer/realtor/doctor would never pay those prices anyway and there are far more of them than actors or Fortune 500 executives that will.
Hope you are all keeping well this week
Im good here, I hope your doiing well too. I needed to hear this btw, thank you.
Well said. To the point and valuable. I once tried to land a major wallet company that spends 60k on photography a year. 3 weeks in my own time trying to match what they already had. They did not care. For them a photographer is not just photography but is also the marketing and creative consultant. They wanted to know what was hip and upcoming for next year / what style / color schemes / etc. They pay a decent amount - but not just for photography. They want a lot more. My photos were fine. But that is not what they were looking for. They expect to talk to a team of at least five, not just photography. Lesson learned
Ok but the real question is how the hell can you predict upcoming styles n shit ? And where to look for todays actualities ? biggest brands maybe ? Facebook groups ? I curious to know
I’ve heard that same complaint in every industry I’ve been involved with. My take on those complaining was they either had an overinflated sense of their worth (often based on unnecessary gear purchases) and/or were just incredibly insecure. I’m in complete agreement with your sentiment.
I like your honesty about the photographer you once were. Congratulations on becoming who you are today. Best hopes for your growth in the future.
I find the phrase “they’re just not my client” is helpful. Fairly recently I had someone contact me, I gave them a quote of £3k, which was bargain basement for what they were getting, and they just said “we’ve seen someone who charges £300”.
Suddenly realised that, even though they were a known contact, they just weren’t my client. No idea if they thought I was going to match the £300 quote, but it’s not a game I’m interested in playing.
Great video. A lot of it does have to do with newer photographers not knowing their worth. One of the most annoying things I hear is other photographers saying someone else is killing the market, taking their work, ect. Photography is more of a community than a competition. Just because you shoot something and the guy next to you shoots the same thing, it doesn't make them competition. Everyone also has their one styles and that is what draws customers in. There's still plenty of work out there for us that are serious about our work. I constantly refer clients to other photographers because their ideas are not my style, but I may know someone who is better at that style.
I think you nailed it perfectly evento for social photography like weddings , portrait sessions maternity etc. Here in brazil its exactly the same.
I enjoy hearing this. Please more videos. I think for pros and aspiring photographers its good to hear.
Great talk man! Sounds perfectly sensible to me. Love the way you break down these common views and put them into a logical and practical measure.
I really like your disenchanted and honest way of looking at the profession of photographer
I've got one for you.
I live in oakcliff Dallas a very poor mostly minority suburb. My photography career involves receiving invitations to kids birthday parties anniversaries sweet sixteen baptisms and occasionally weddings from locals who could never afford a photographer period. I shoot a nikon d850 I don't provide prints only jpegs that my "clients" can print at their discretion I'm an excellent photographer and I'm happy with what I do. You would be surprised how often I get people complaining that I'm killing their business despite the fact that the vast majority of my customers are on subsidized housing and food assistance.
Thank you for your insight on this common topic. Having been in the real estate brokerage and appraisal industry for many decades, I have personally experienced the same issue of lower priced competitors and have, long ago, come to the same conclusion that I needed to pitch prospects who actually needed and appreciated the quality of my experience and services. And, once I realized that, I found it much easier to identify and seek out my target market. Thanks again. I always appreciate your practical analyses.
I'm just shooting short documentary films for educational non-profits here in Santa Cruz, California, and it's like there's this mind-reading artistic food photographer across the globe in Leicester. Exactly what has been on my mind. One of my most practical subscriptions. - Dave
I am an amateur and do free publicity shots for a local charity. Whenever I am asked if I do weddings (never!) or other paying gigs I tell them to use a professional as I am not in the business of doing them out of work, but if they still want me because they know me and my work then I quote a commercial rate. However I always add the caveat that I am not a pro and they only pay if they like what they see, which takes the pressure off me if things don’t go well (that hasn’t happened yet). In the profession that pays my salary your words ring true, I turn away the type of work that I know others will do for less and at a lower standard than I am prepared to compete against, which means I can devote my time to good quality clients who return time and again and pay a decent fee. Years ago the best piece of advice I had was from a bank manager (remember those?) who told me not to be a busy fool, i.e. chasing every job no matter the cost.
Great analogy with the grocery store.
Great knowledge in your videos, you should do a video on how to work out what clients to pitch to.
Thank You for the excellent approach. Got me to subscribe and looking forward. Share the same thoughts over most comments. I'm at the point of holding to jobs and making also through photography. Nothing wrong with that and definitely to use the right path. Very helpful. cheers
Great video as always! I love your idea of nicheing down and becoming a specialist in you previous videos, just wondering how a big photographer like Karl Taylor can do all types of work from portrait, beauty, cosmetics, pruduct, to cars. Would love to hear your opinion on that.
Brilliant insight and advice Scott
Informative and direct... fantastic... I wish I had your drive for business...
Spot on.
I'm a cheap photographer for that very reason...I feel like I'm still learning. I tell people that point blank when we meet. If they want something more advanced they should really go to someone more skilled. Sometimes I take photos for free if it's something I have never done before so I can build my knowledge, but people know that beforehand. They are not going to get the same quality...or they might....who knows...we will see hahaha
Whether just starting or being a professional, charge what you see the job worth not your skillset. I see so many new photographers taking low paying gigs that barely pay for the gas and the time. Not to mention, it's easier to explain to a client why your prices are where they are when you start at a good spot than it is to explain to them why you raised your prices.
Spot on. Thank you.
Absolutely spot on
Nice talk about the cheap photographers attracting clients with low prices to take photographs. I have been seeing that some of the camera companies are making cameras with 1" digital sensors (13mm x 8mm) with zoom lens and a good f-stop for the size and I think it is giving the photographer wannabe's the idea that the can contend with the real professional photographers. I don't think that is good but it's out there.
This is food for my brain. Thank you *
I'm a hobbyist photographer, but if somebody would now ask me to shoot something for them, or want to buy one of my photographs for on the wall -- I'd just have NO IDEA what to charge for that.
I suppose that a lot of beginning photographers are in a similar position: no idea of the value of their own work, no idea what the market is like, and afraid to charge something unrealistic.
I don't think the complaints are about the people that do it for half the price you do, I think the issue are the photographers that offer those "$50 mini session" that are advertised at 15 minute and 30 delivered photos kind of thing. Most people that aren't into photography wouldn't understand how bad of a deal that is, and why you are a better deal asking for $500-$1,000 for a couple of hours of shooting and maybe 10 delivered photos kind of thing. This is one of many reasons I stay far far away from the portrait photography world.
This is a really difficult situation for newer photographers. Most protogs don't display their pricing, so its difficult to get a comparison. You may not realise you're under or overcharging, and its probably not until you either start getting too much work, or not enough work that this becomes apparent. It's also an industry where basic business costs don't necessarily relate directly to a fee you can charge to cover them.
When you charge for photography you should be including business costs. Your time, your gear, your insurance, your bills, ect. All of that comes in to calculation when you break down what you are going to charge for a service. They you break down how many shoots you need to book to cover said expenses.
Part of what you say is truth. But in a small market where people are not educated, they will choose always the cheaper option. Therefore you will have no way to survive.
Hear hear 👏🏻👏🏻
Dieter Schwarz, the owner of LIDL is worth 16 billon dollar. Marks and Spensors aren't they broken?
not every client is able to pay primium for photos , a small burger shop , will not have the same budget as mc donald , if you go to small burger place and tell him yee i want 1000$ to make you one photo , will be more like 10 per photo and ther are not many mc donald out ther , ,, most small medium company that want lot of images are douing , is much easy for them to just spend 2000 for a camera and lights , and hier a 20yo kid as full time staff photographer/ graphic desiner / web site manager /
I fell off the chair laughing when you mentioned Annie Leibovitz
yeah disagree.....
With what?