Rocket Antilag Explained, BigBadWolf Turbo S2000 Story
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 พ.ค. 2021
- Its been years of Antilag questions, how did we do it, why did we do it, did it actually work. In this video i finally tell the whole story of how the S2000's Rocket Antilag system came to be and go over how long it lasted and how it was controlled. Please Also checkout @MotoIQ video covering the car from the Optimat World Championship Autocross
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I spent a fair amount of time tuning subaru's in the 2000's and I had heard of, but never saw that system. I found your story absolutely fascinating. Heat management was a major issue even just tuning road cars. particularly on the dyno. I don't think many people appreciate how big your nuts are doing 100's of hours tuning on something akin to a grenade with the pin out. You, sir are a legend of an order only people with a certain knowledge can truly appreciate. I'm going back to watch that again. So interesting I barely noticed you take 45 min to pull a fuel rail 👌
Appreciate the kind words my friend 🙏
Yikes
S2000 motor tuning, does not sound fun
I was at Prodrive throughout the 90’s and into the early 2000’s and remember the days when the rocket was being developed, it was easy to tell because the test team workshop was surrounded by smoke,flames and loud noises! 😂😂😂
😂😂
Thanks for sharing your experience
Another Honda Fan in PA. I'm 51, just finished my first Kswap in an 89 CRX Shooting for 400 HP AWD. Absolutely amazed at your work. You are way ahead of me and you are young. You've got life by balls kid! Go win the race!
It’s amazing that you guys pulled off something that pretty much only a factory funded rally team and one other guy at Litchfield (who had some inside knowledge from Prodrive) has ever managed!
That fires definitely the kind of near miss that makes you check things more carefully moving forwards though!
Really appreciate the kind words! Yes lesson learned on the fire, such a bad oversight on our part due to rushing
I know this is an older video, but as someone who is currently trying to tune a twin charged setup i found this absolutely fascinating! The level of testing and development that went into making this system actually work is incredible. It's clear why it's not a common practice today, and yet the fact that you did it at all is very impressive! My setup is child's play by comparison. Kudos to you for tackling and conquering this beast 👏
While it's only a minor detail, you did forget the part where you smoked the tires on the dyno on the first attempted pass, and had to borrow mine to actually successfully make dyno passes (and then told me about it later, hahaha!). I also still remember the first time that you drove this thing with the rocket anti-lag at an event. I've never seen either you or Chris Mayfield spin out so many times! :D
Still, it's really fun to hear this story told properly. I'm also extremely grateful that I got to benefit from the "Torque-On-Demand" tuning approach created to make this car controllable. It's just one of the wonderful factors that makes Sumaire STi as special as she is. Thank you again for all of your efforts to help get my car going, mate - she wouldn't be the beast she is today without you! (Same gratitude goes for Chris and Maciek!)
Ah that doomed run fits perfectly with Enzo Ferraris ‘the perfect race car is one that breaks a moment after the finish line’ quote 😂
I remember seeing pictures of 1950s jet engines with their cowling's off. There are several of these things surrounding the engine. Amazing to think you built a sort of remote, centrifugal flow jet engine.
Figured I'd put this on and listen to it in the background while I got some work done. I think I made less progress than you did on that motor.
Great story, thanks for putting that together.
Epic story, loved the whole thing.
That's so awesome how the turbo stays at a consistent speed even when sitting at the start line! You are definitely ahead of your time
look up the s11 subaru from 2005 , it had a rocket anti lag so even thou this guy claims to be the first , he was late by almost a decade....
@@Stromn83 He claims to be the first person to build and run it PRIVATELY, he even talked about subaru running it, they're just a big company doing it.
Just sat here with goosebumps just listening to your experiences with this car and the antilag. I cant even imagine how fun this car must be to drive, it does not even compute haha.
It was great watching the development of this back then (hard to believe almost 10 years ago!) Thanks for sharing, and congrats!
-Will
I wonder why this is popping up in the recommendations right now. Glad I watched it. The turbo speed gauge in the last run is just pleasant to watch.
250-280hp in a very light car, with incredible handling, and most of its power in the upper part of the rev range is a formula for fun!
I think it's closer to a jet than a rocket. Either way it's extra extraordinary ALS
Thanks for a very inspirational story.
That's exactly what it is. In essence what they're doing is wedging an internal combustion engine right after the compressor stage of a gas turbine.
Technically a jet is a type of rocket engine
Wow!!! Sounds a lot like you are getting in to Top Fuel Dragster Fuel Management and Maintainance territory! (Teardowns after every run). Hope your budget can support that! Good luck going forward!!!😊
Thank you for sharing that story Robert. I've followed the car since 2015 and I've always wondered about the development and pains of that system. Also thanks for the time of putting up this channel and all the One Lap vids. Hopefully I'll get to meet you guys and see some of the cars out at Hallett sometime as I instruct out there a couple of times a month.
That, and you and the people helping you with that are awesome. I am have no words how impressive it is to me that you got it to work! To bad it is so complicated to deal with and maintain.
That's such an amazing story and adventure! I remember seeing some limited info on your setup in interviews and stuff, but it took me a few years to stumble across your channel and find this.
I wish I had the money to race. A story like this is quite inspiring. There's been so many ideas I've wanted to engineer, but just don't have the money or resource to try things
Same.
Ever thought of karting?
@@williambrasky3891 I heard that's how you get in to racing but even that sport is somehow the same cost or more than drifting. Just a heartless up to par with competition would be 7000 at least. Plus you have to have some kind of very flexible job that allows you lots of time off to go to all the races. The only way to do it as a career would be to get sponsored which you probably at the dump 50,000 of your own dollars in before that happens same with drifting
Man, Ive been following the rocket system since we saw you run it at nats and win. Great to hear the whole story. Would love to see it again someday.
I've seen this car run at Nats in Lincoln and it was amazing. I've heard bits and pieces and a generalized overview of the rocket system from various other competitors and whatnot, but it's great to see it all in one place and in detail.
Best video yet. Loved it. Thank you for sharing.
Had a friend w/ a mint integra type R, ran stock back when they allowed slicks. One event, to get a bit rotation out of the rear, he decided to run used up Hoosiers out back & new kumhos up front. Called it HoosierHos. He won nationals a year later, but think he was driving a yellow c5 z06 in ASP.
I caught a headache mid way through had to take it off come back the next day lmao this is insane you got this to work
Awesome story Robert. I remember gridding behind you at a bmw event and hearing your start sequence was just like an A-10 APU start. It was fun watching you navigate that thing!
I loved every minute of this story. Awesome peice of racing history right there!
Met you at a PhillySCCA event a few years ago(2018). Your car was super sick back then. Funny to see you in my YT feed in 2023!
Man been dying to see a clear indetail video
thanks
Pretty cool Robert. I've heard bits and pieces of the rocket saga over the years, but never got around to asking you about the whole story.
Thanks for explaining everything so detailed.👍
Super interesting, glad you shared and had success with that! Congrats on KOTM win! I wish I had come over to talk and check out your car.
amazing story on the rocket, danx for sharing😊
Great story! Impressive what you guys accomplished!
Very interesting story, thanks for sharing.
Enjoyed that bud, thanks for sharing a great story. Good mix of tech and trials and tribulations.😋
Dude hell yeah! This was an amazing story!
Awesome story even more awesome build
Fantastic, thanks for sharing!
Really cool to listen to this, awesome story. keep it up
What a great video of a quality story, i absolutely love the way air can be messed with to create power, gas turbines are a fairly simple example of this, but basically you are using a gas turbine to control boost for an Ic engine, but using its own air. Its incredible. Ive seen a few vids of the subarus from wrc and they were fascinating too. Love this. 👍🏼
That’s pretty awesome!! We need more of these!!
Maybe one day!
Superb work and commitment to the rocket! Also completely understand removing it for more seat time less wrench/TIG time 😅
Thanks for sharing that story! Mad respect for going and figuring this stuff out, completely understand the lack of desire to go back to the complexity of that system though. Still hoping to one day see it make a return, simply from a engineering porn perspective :P.
Got me all excited to work on my car again, without a rocket and without a turbo, even, lol
Thanks very much! was a journey!
@@Robert_Thorne8 since the engine is stock u must have gapped the rings... how much did you gap them??
@@FirstLast-tx3yj I did not gap them. I ended up running E98. Cylinder temps seem to be cool enough
@@Robert_Thorne8 so on astock s2000 engine running e98. One can run 600+whp!!!???
@@FirstLast-tx3yj Absolutely. The motor is still stock today and still rock solid. including a couple 30psi runs at road atlanta pushing 700hp
Awesome! Thanks for sharing
i'm amazed that you were able to get this to work. nothing easy about it.
great work and great story, interesting that it came from old train engines.
Amazing story. I went through my own implementation of fresh air ALS and revisions with my evo. Never yielded much results. I used a tial 40 something mm for my fresh air valve. Hard to find privateers using more advanced setups than just cracking or kicking the throttle.
I've been working on a product for the last 12 years that may have similar results, but without the issues.
It's a single piece of solid-state hardware. No moving parts, and non electrical. I have the original working prototype that I ran on my daily driver, for 3 straight years. I'm currently working on an upgraded version.
At pre production prototype stage.
I reworking the design spicifally for lean manufacturing purposes.
I don't own a business...yet, so it's been hard to get people to take me seriously. Also, this product will increase your fuel mileage by 50%.
That's the original idea intended.
It turned out to be a power adder, as well. Smoothed out the engine, too.
I don't have the money to patent this design, and I'm considering releasing it to the public domain in order to get this product out to the people who need the fuel savings and into the hands of people like yourself who can take this performance adder and run with it...literally. I hope this peaks your interest and I can talk to you sometime in the near future.
I'm a 48 y/o parts truck driver, for a Mazda/Ford dealership. (11ys.) My family and I are surviving week to week, but we willnever give up, and we will never quit.
That's why 12 years later, we're still working on it. I feel that this year... we will succeed!
Thanks for your time and may you be blessed always in your endeavours!
Thank for the great content what a lovely story 👍
In rally you have striction to lower the power output, a strictor on the turbo limiting the air and that way limit the output Power of the engine.
Well if you don't have striction like this in your class, just have a rocket engine to spin the turbo.
In this case it works like an super charger with it's own engine to spin it...
So you wouldn't need to route exhaust from the engine to the turbo at all, just have the rocket with it's own fuel source, a bit off the boost going to the "rocket" and most off the boost going to the engine.
Might be much easier to tune.
How people get started this kind of jet engines is with compres air, you can find all kind off turbo jet engines people build. And you already have the compres air so just a bit engineering to get around it and your good to go
Cool story! 🙂
Great video Robert!
Appreciate it!
Cool story hansel
Fascinating, very interesting project for sure. To have instant torque on demand, like electric motor but better! I think the new BW Efr series turbos are so fast spooling that you can achieve the same with regular rolling anti lag.
Prodrive created a car, that people could buy, that had an ALS setup back in the mid-2000's. Reference the Top Gear episode that featured it and made Jeremy Clarkson hurl. It had other rad features as well. Like a super advanced Active Torque Sensing center differential and active front and rear diffs, all adjustable with a knob from within the cabin/from the driver's seat.
Wery interesting channel😊. Glad to see.
just subbed because Brent said "come on over" no issue so have my support now!
Appreciate you!!
Epic. Truly.
Here in Australia during WW1 we had actual burning wood combustion engines.
Hot chamber of white hot coals(Hard-wood) getting sucked into a compression chamber.
: a)
Good ol Syngas 👍
Jesus dude, you got enough shop rags? Loved the video, you got a new sub..
Awesome project and great to see a 🦇 💩 crazy idea made reality by hard work and ingenuity. Thank you for sharing.
awesome
Amazing story amazing craftsmanship amazing work man your the entrepreneur of motorsports a young Carroll shelby or ken miles the gale banks of our generation
This is what rally anti-lag is!
So it turns the turbo into a high bypass turbojet. Neat!
Sick love the name too❤
this.
is.
amazing.
Have a supercharger for the purpose to feed air into an air chamber and release the pressure into the turbo when needed.
Congratulations that was absolutely amazing and really enjoyed that 👋👍.
Might seem irrelevant now bt would noz helped at all, smaller rocket, hopefully you'll give it another go very soon please,👍
Dude Ur a legend🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
Cool story
I wonder if stainless steel would have reduced maintenance.
I've had some similar cracking issues with the carbon steel pulse jet waste oil heater that I built for my garage. It's definitely time to get myself a tig welder.
Nice
Okay now i have to see car with a supercharger belt attached to the driveshaft lol
One day
I first read about rocket anti-lag with rally and hill climb cars. The other two oddball turbo technologies are “boost tanks” and remote mounted turbos. Perhaps you could combine these technologies to patch the weaknesses of each individual technology?
Maybe mount the rocket in the back and have it fill a boost tank.
Just wow!!!
this man created hell in his exhaust
Wow that's all I can say that's is something I understand why you haven't gone back to the rocket and I you really are planning on trying it again you better do it quick because the more time ticks by the harder it becomes age is a M Fer. But you guys are gods that's for sure
Did you have any other turbo failures aside from the "doomed run"? Amazing story, I remember seeing it at solo nats that year in 2016 and was in awe of the engineering and development of the whole package.
Nope, no other failures or issues. I am still using that 2nd turbo
@@Robert_Thorne8 what would you say the top speed you hit ob these short/tight corner autocrosses? Do you go past 150kph/ 90mph?
The shape Reminds me of the Formula Ford 1600 Kent headers.
There was a period in the late 1980's F1 that utilised trumpets in the exhaust header.
Im keen to replicate those headers on my Escort 1600.
: )
Amazing story. Curious to know how this would compare to a more modern and conventional ALS now. Would it give enough of an advantage to warrant the extra maintenance and complexity
Wicked smart
You can build the rocket component using lower grade stainless I'm certain areas and even cast iron if you have an adequate albeit articulate cooling system and set up liquid intercooling
supercharger idea i like better actually. only change you have to make is give a nice mild boost to mid on gear one increase a bit on 2 and by 3 you just make your ratio so that you like where it peaks at. and each gear from there just changes equally in the opposite direction keeping that final ratio the same through 3- whatever. lol would end up with a radical setup and be very complicated. likely overweight for the gains but would be super cool idea to see implemented for sure!!!
Hey Rob would you possibly still have the partial throttle data as well? Would love to put it to good use.
Secondary injector on the inlet side of the turbo, anti lag valve opens to rocket, fuel goes into rocket premixed with fresh air.
Maybe use a diesel injector closer to the rocket even, I’ve heard a few solutions for not running excess fuel through the cylinder. There’s always a way to do anything, just gotta figure it out.
Your system reminds me of the Hyperbar engine.
The system is meant to be controlled electronically not by air, :)..shame we didn’t connect a while back.l
Interesting. So it's basically running the turbo as a jet engine to keep it spooled and patching in the piston engine to that circuit with a clever bit of valving. (Making a turbo into a jet turbine is an interesting shop challenge in itself, but routing all that and getting it to fit in a car is taking it to another level.)
This is basically a part time gas turbine. You would be well advised to make a turbine housing which has an inlet for the exhaust gas, and a separate combustor can on a specific manifold. You could even put a separate turbine rotor for the cylinder exhaust gas and the combustor can turbine.
So many cool car channels in PA haha
Unbelievable to get it working! Definitely all inconel will help. Maybe double wall on the inlet to diffuse the cool? I'm just throwing ideas because I'd love to try and make one work. Maybe even run an injector and igniter to circumvent the motor entirely for preheat. something similar to what I've seen in gas turbines. The best part besides lag would be low back pressure sizing for the housing. Would be a dog without anti lag but free power with a rocket.
Appreciate it brother!! For sure I need to give it another go!
@@Robert_Thorne8 Supercharger power without the weight is just too tempting. They are crazy heavy.
So first you build a furnace , you know like for blacksmithing,?
then you detune it so you it doesnt melt the car.
what a great story, absolutely ingenious.
well done on the win!
when you do it again, which you have to obviously, end to end inconel?
mitigate the cracking and the header fatigue?
Thanks for sharing your experience :)
I am actually considering to build a rocket anti lag for my street car 8D
I have 2 questions:
1. at 38:50 you show you heat shielding of the rocket and the manifold. What did you use as heat shielding? I have never seen something similar.
2. is the rocket a pure combustion chamber with no moving parts?
Hey.........been thinkn all day.......put vector nose on and of exhaust pipe......and then double after burnner........cheers
My VW GTI with the DSG transmission holds boost through all shifts. However it doesn’t keep the turbo spooled if you have to let off of the throttle which is inevitable in autocross.
Hey very interesting video. Found allmost nothing on YT about this amazing system. Is the use of inconel mandatory for the inside of the rocket ? How much the "rocket" cost ? (i know inconel is not cheap and a good exhaust manifold too 😉)
imagine having this in a "turbo era" f1 car. That would've dominated hard.
I have the same system running, but with the 1st gen combustion chamber, and peaks at 850 deg during transient throttle
Your system sounds great! Can be difficult for sure. Some days i could get that low, but often it was higher. Smaller turbo helps keep temps down too
@@Robert_Thorne8 True! i'm running a quite small unit, equivalent to a GTX28