@@RVVBJJ your stuff is brilliant Rory, we need to get you in a room with Priit Mihkelson and Wim Deputter, they'd love a conversation on evidence based approaches
I understand where your going with this but a guy named Tyler Driskell out of Atlanta,GA has ran through some really good guys at brown belt and now doing the same at Blackbelt with calf slicers and knee bars. Separated a guys knee with a slicer at a Fight to Win. He is the best I've seen at them. Double golded NoGi master 1 worlds last year. All subs but one I believe. I do understand that he isn't in there with Pena and Buchecha and he is a rare case but just wanted get this out there in case some people want to develop these subs in their game.
I personally don't care what works at lower belts. I saw multiple FTW calf slicers at brown belt but it's not transferring to black. I tried watching his matches but Flograppling had video clips where no one even steps on the mats (God the suck). Nogi Masters 1 is obviously an accomplishment, but it's not the highest level. Did he use calf slicers to win nogi worlds? I couldnt see all his matches. Calf slicers can work at lower levels, but there isn't evidence suggesting it worth the time over further developing the other leg locks. Even submitting some guys at black belt isn't necessarily enough, as there are so many varying degrees of skill in regards to a black belt. Plus with the evolution of leg locks the last few years as more people get comfortable with them I imagine calf slicers will be even harder to come across.
@@RVVBJJ Okay, for us lower belts, why would something work on Pro Brown Belts and not Pro Black Belts? What do black belts figure out in that time that they couldn't have figured out by Brown? Is it that the rules just started exposing them to these attacks, so they were essentially "White Belts" when it came to calf-slicers?
@AdamIsForGiants I think you hit the nail on the head. The stupid rule sets not allowing leg locks for the most part until brown belt creates stagnation in many people's development of leg locks. By black belt they have gotten more comfortable with leg locks. I have never seen a strong leg locker submitted by a calf slicer that I can think of, there are black belts that have been submitted by calf slicers but it's rare, 1 time time against Felipe Pena, and in other instances I wonder how adept at leg locks the person being submitted was.
My top 5 favorite/most used submissions 1. Triangle. 2 heel hook. 3 rnc 4guillotine and variations (anaconda, marcelotine darce) 5kimura I have a really hard time with the toe hold but I’m trying to use it more
Great list with the top 4 getting hit consistently and putting people away. Kimuras aren't high percentage for finishing, but damn the control it gives you is amazing. I personally never even try to finish Kimuras anymore (unless my opponent makes a big mistake), but I'm always hunting for the grip/control to use the lever based rotational control to take my opponent's back. Similar to how the Danaher guys use it.
I agree with the overall sentiment that one shouldn't waste time on BS techniques based on the evidence, but I see significant flaws in how you made your point: 1. What are you measuring? You're looking at the absolute number of successful submissions without having the context of submission attempts. Is the 4% of submissions by omoplata indicative that it's a "low percentage" submission, as in "doesn't succeed often in actually submitting people", as opposed to not being attempted much? Plenty of factors could explain the composition of high-level successful submissions besides raw effectiveness, based on the current meta and what's fashionable at any given moment. Who was heel-hooking people outside of Palhares and Lister a decade ago? How many calf slicers were attempted at ADCC? 2. What's a useful submission to learn? Some submissions might not have high submission success per se, but you still have to respect them or else. So they remain effective as sweeps or as a way to corral the opponent into giving you something else. You'll in fact see people going for the Americana at the highest level (saw that in a Gordon Ryan match recently, can't remember against whom), anticipating that they won't finish it, but counting on it to open up opportunities for armbars or other subs. Do you have data on how many omoplatas led to a successful sweep? So is the move worth knowing or not? And if you don't learn it, how do you defend it except by saying "oh I don't tap short of having my entire knee destroyed"? In the end the only sure way to submit people is to strangle them as they can't fight through passing out with heart. Otherwise you could say any joint lock relies on pain compliance or referee intervention if you want to 100% make sure you don't end up like Roger Gracie "losing" to Jacare. Danaher often makes that point. You'd need more thorough, detailed data to fully support your case. The datasets that I've seen on grappling are a joke compared to what you'd find on your typical sportsball where they measure assists, rebounds, etc, not just how points where scored. Even MMA is starting to have decent stats with significant strikes per round, takedown defense in absolute numbers and relative %, etc.
Great comment! 1) Looking at the success of the submission itself when talking about this video, the "Breaking Mechanics." Absolutely omoplatas aren't high percentage when evaluating their submission rates, but the breaking mechanics are undeniable and we consistently see sweeps or transitions off of them. Omoplatas are useful as a position itself, rather than just a submission. We don't with calf slicers as they are usually used either in the "truck position" or off of failed leg lock attempts where the opponent turns out of say something like a heel hook. So far they are used within already existing positions, or are the back up plan to a failed submission of higher effectiveness. Calf slicers using the arm behind the bend of the knee are even worse. 2) Useful submissions need to be able to be entered/exited in a controlled manner, be able to be controlled almost as if it is a position itself, have sound breaking mechanics and threat, and strong follow up options either to sweeps or other submissions. Such as Kimuras, Guillotines, Triangles, Omoplatas, Armbars, etc. Keylocks, Calf Slicers, Electric Chairs, Twisters, Peruvian Neckties (Very effective, just no follow ups or exit strat) and examples of submissions that aren't great for different reasons under the criteria I listed (A topic for another day). We should be aware of all submissions, anything that could cause us harm. So yes learn what a calf slicer is, how to properly apply it, and learn how to defend it as we would with anything. I'm just saying Calf Slicers are way less effective and we should be spending time on the more effective submissions we see working, rather than building a game around them. The answer is never to "Just ignore them." Americana/Keylocks are conceptually more sound in regards to breaking mechanics and are devastating, and like you said they open up many opportunities. Like I said in the previous paragraph, the threat of a calf slicer isn't useful for anything that has been developed yet that I've seen. Omoplatas are fantastic and have many examples of how useful they are outside of just the submission so that technique isn't a great example to keep bringing up. I absolutely agree more can be done to have better data, but we don't have that and I'm not the guy to do it. I am saying look at the "Olympic Level" of our sport and watch what is going on. If Calf slicers start showing up consistently then I will change my conclusion.
@olivier travers has a good point. Bjj/submission grappling is such a counter/meta based competition it's hard to use simple science on it. Theoretically you could have success with a bad technique if it takes you opponent by surprise for instance. Also wasn't kimuras recent all the rage? Setting up for sweeps, back takes and armbars? Also I remember seeing guillotines among the most common submissions a few years ago, when I tried the same though expiriment :)
@@Dvalb yes we have even seen a keylock performed at black belt by Lachlan Giles, but I want to see consistency. That's why success with a bad technique should not be overly praised or attempted to be replicated,, and excellent timing can make a "less technical" move work in the heat of the moment: There are many variables. Kimuras and Guillotines are still quite meta for control. Kimuras aren't hit too often for submissions, but Guillotines are still scene so these moves hold up. If calf slicers go through a crazy developement cycle and become consistent at the high level then I will adapt and learn, I just don't predict this happening.
@@RVVBJJ RVV BJJ haha I mean, it's pretty easy to shit on calf slicers, but it's all on a scale, and it's pretty hard to deside the exact order. What has worked in the past is one way, but how do you know if somethings bad or the new heel hook. Really I'm just playing the devils advocate. I get the desire to use "statistics" to find the best/most important techniques. But it hard to use and do science on BJJ, like it's hard to do science on for instance food: Too many variables, hard to test, hard to separate different variables and so on. You get it
@@Dvalb I agree with all of that. The best we can do is watch the best guys and replicate them,watch trends, and understanding the concepts behind the techniques Otherwise we risk developing false positives by getting gym taps, or lower level taps. This can obviously still be fun and useful, but we should aim for the best.
I appreciate your analysis and insight. Something I would like to add is a hobbyist may have a different metric of success then training to defeat the best or using the highest percentage in vouge submissions. There is a lot to be said for having fun and hitting oddball calve slice moves and having a laugh with your training partners. I think that is representative of the majority of Bjj players who have full time jobs and busy lives
100 percent! Jiu Jitsu needs to be fun, and I will do some wacky shit sometimes, but it is important to understand the techniques place and the intent behind it. We typically are drawn to BJJ for the live sparring aspect and the complexity of the sport/martial art. As hobbyists I think it is even more important in some ways to train higher percentage techniques as we have less time to train due to other obligations in our life. People typically want to get good at something fast, and want to be able to replicate those results against anyone they roll with; its just sometime easy to forget and misjudge a technique's validity when we go through a period of training with the same partners in our own gym. I want to train techniques without stipulations attached like "Well providing the guy has poor flexibility, or providing he taps early because he's worried about injury" as I want stuff that will always work regardless of the opponent I'm facing. The problem lies more in someone who trains calf slicers and builds a game around it and develops the false positive that this stuff works against everyone. They may even go as far as to teach/have students focus on developing a game themselves around calf slicers" That's the problem. We need to understand how calf slicers work, be able to apply them to whatever effectiveness they are capable of, and then train the defenses to them so we ensure our safety. Similar to how most train a Keylock/Americana.
@@RVVBJJ I watched this video a few years ago when I had **completely** built a game around Calf Slicers. I had unique ways of setting them up from Half Octopus and other meme guards and did Sambo variations with the legs switched. Caught Purples, Browns and even got a hobbyist Blackbelt instructor with one. It always irked me that I never saw them at EBI or ADCC and deep down I knew they might be a low percentage technique, but couldn't bring my conscious mind to admit it. When this video showed up in my feed my heart sunk, because I knew I was about to get confronted with the truth. It took a couple years of detox; to stop wanting to immediately go into the Truck from every position possible and I had to relearn how to Gift-Wrap, Spiral Ride, Seatbelt and use two hooks. All of those Truck entry type moves are being retooled to fit into a broader Bolo type system, where the focus is lifting the hips and exposing the lower-back, not chasing after one submission. Today I run a small academy and don't waste student's time with niche or low % moves. Thank you for putting the time into this video, even if it was just something you needed to get off your chest at the time.
Interesting take but I must disagree and I wonder if your opinion has changed since this video? Calf slicers can be absolutely devastating to the calf, hamstring, and knee. Not only that but what I mostly disagree with is saying that this doesn't fit well with in the system of leglocks. From both SLX and the saddle you have both a calf slicer and a hamstring slicer (beartrap /hamsandwich) if your opponent frees their knee-line from either position they are right there for the taking. At the very least they can be a direct pathway to a back take from a failed leglock. A techniques usefulness is not just about its primary function but its totality of usefulness. Just my humble opinion.
Effective or not, I don't see a problem in knowing how to do one. If you see a good opportunity to sinch in a calf slicer, it doesn't hurt knowing that you can do it... It's another option in your arsenal.
Of course, I would say you should learn it so you can understand how to reverse engineer and defend. No harm in having it in the arsenal, the problem is how much time is put into it. At higher belt levels we need to drill and hone technique over and over and if that time is put to building a game around a weaker technique we will see diminishing returns.
Love your work! But of course it just so happens that I uploaded the calf slicer video to reddit that you made a comment similar to this video and I have a little video on calf slicers in MMA in editing. Would love to have a chat with you sometime about martial arts pedagogy!
I was in a calf slicer mood for a few days while preparing this video, please understand it's purely a debate with no negative feelings attached (I'm sure you already know this!). Hell yeah man! I'm more active on Facebook, message me on my page Rory van Vliet - RVV BJJ or send me a friend request to my personal account. We can talk about whatever.
@@RVVBJJ I completely understand its a purely debate and don't really disagree with what you are saying. I also understand in a video like this it becomes a struggle to decide what you will leave out when explaining your case. I do believe a good discussion can be had about how and when to introduce a move such as a calf slicer as I think it would also be negligent to never show it. Ill be in touch!
The old BJJ kumite lloyd irvine organised had Sean Roberts destroy a whole bunch of legit world qualifiers with his calf slicer from bottom. Check it out, it's really good. He was the one that got to do the finals against Keenan because of that move (Amongst others).
Yes I know the tournament well, problem is it's not the best guys. It's a brown belt tournament, if a calf slicer worked on Keenan that could have been something interesting. Calf slicers can work but once again lower percentage, and phase out at black belt. I also haven't see a strong leg locker ever submitted with a calf slicer, so as people improve with leg locks I think we will see them even less.
Maybe a couple of amendments, i think a calf slicer from backside 50:50 is effective, the video focussed on calf slicers from truck. Charles Oliveira has a finish with it, but more recently Dolidze used it as a control position to finish Hermansson in the UFC. Then there's the 'Ham Sandwich' which Brandon Mccaghren has been doing, you could argue that strictly speak neither of these are calf slicers but i don't know what other vocabulary we have to describe them that's in common usage: th-cam.com/video/jOMnkSgJ0gY/w-d-xo.html
Isn't it possible that the reason why you don't see certain moves at the highest level is because it's simply very difficult to get into that position and not because the finisher move is ineffective? for example we know that a twister is effective and can do a tremendous amount of damage including permanent paralysis....but the fact of the matter is you don't really see twisters like hardly ever. my contention again is that this is due to the fact that it is rare to find yourself in the position to apply a twister. Couldn't this be the same situation going on for calf slicers? Thanks!
Lone Wolf nah the truck is one of the most common positions in no gi Jiu Jitsu and it’s simply an easier submission to not get into, of course it works but it’s hard to get to on a more experienced opponent
Great question! My answer is No, as Joshua said the truck isn't a rare position so the opportunity is there. It's just a simpler submission to defend, and the breaking mechanics are not as reliably strong. We also have more instances of the calf slicer failing at the highest level as opposed to putting people away such as some of the clips I used in this video. Let's say what you said is true, and let's look at Keylocks/Americanas. A devastating submission when applied correctly, no one argues its breaking mechanic validity (Even Danaher has a post on this). However, it's nearly impossible to set up on experienced opponent's, we never see Keylocks at the black belt level. So if the submission can't be even be initiated the submission isn't valuable as it has the reverse problem: Can't be started as opposed to finished.
@@RVVBJJ I think Danaher's take was that between setup and breaking, there is the 'bypass opponents resistance' phase which is where both the Americana and Calf Slicer fail.
Of course, I even say that at the end of the video! A scientific approach requires changing our conclusions in the surfacing of new evidence. So I as had stated, if people start consistently getting fucked up at the high level in 2020 from calf slicers I will be immediately evaluating and dissecting what has caused this shift.
I won't argue with you about not spending much time on it if your not that into it. It isn't a high percentage finishing position. I would contend however that Calf slicer isn't as much applicable in a leg pummeling type battle like you were talking about but it is applicable in a back take scenario. Its redeeming qualities are that if you have a twister hook while you're attacking the back and they put their back on the mat, once you enter a calf slicer they often expose their back defending the slicer and you can climb to the back again. Felipe Costa, and Justin Rader have a few calf slicers in there highlight reals at a high level but they both pull it during back take scenarios with the twister hook. Justin even tore up Samuel Braga's knee pretty good at ultimate absolute. Rafa, Cobrinia, Grippo, the Miao's, Tommy Langaker, Hall and Espen Mathiesen all use the calf slicer/bear trap/twister hook position pretty often taking the back. In that respect its kinda like using the kimura not as a submission but as a control position to get to other things. You can attack calf slicers when your opponent enters a leg drag too if they're being careless with there leg position if it fails it can help you get back to guard.
I agree with the "bear trap" and the control that can bring to advance position. I don't agree with the calf slicer against a leg drag pass, I assume you mean the version using your forearm to wedge behind the knee, that does not work. While I understand the comparison the calf slicer is no where near as useful as a Kimura in terms of control, it could be more compared to a Keylock, but the responses don't set up anything as significant against your opponent. I'm not saying stay away from it all together and that it has no use ever, but it should not be highly regarded as a devastating submission, or even much of an effective one.
Not tapping to submissions that can actually leave you injured is so stupid. I don't care if you're in competition or not, it will always be a dumb idea. Its insane how many guys are fine with giving up a joint just for an extra couple minutes on the matt. Never made sense to me!
Short answer: They are both so good I never bothered to think about this much. I honestly could not tell you as I have never thought it was important to choose one over the other. Both are strong submissions, can be controlled like positions, be entered and exited many ways, and are seen working at Black Belt world level. An argument can be made for Triangles because when people go unconscious they cannot continue fighting, while people can continue to fight with a broken arm. Both the triangle, and arm bar should be trained extensively as a system and connected interchangeably as they blend so well together.
Does this also refer to calf slicers from Cross body ride/the truck/twister? Im asking this because a guy like Danaher(Picky on moves as picky can get) recommended it there.
At this time yes. This is a common position used to take the back and yet I don't see finishes. I am not selectively picking out the entries or positions, purely if the submission occurs. In this case I'm not seeing evidence to suggest this calf slicer is enough. That being said we need to understand how to apply and defend the submission. I am not saying we should ignore it completely, just not build a game around it.
I love your work Rory! Quick thought though- don’t the breaking mechanics of a slicer make some degree of sense? I mean with enough pressure, the prying action of the calf lifting against the meniscus should snap it I would think.
They do to an extent. The 2 problems are that 1) the shin isnt a large enough wedge behind the knee to always cause damage, and 2) while the Tibia, Fibia, and Femur are rigid the knee moves in the folding direction of the calf slicer. Plus the muscle, ligaments, etc are pliable and will absorb the force to an extent (as with any submission). My knee would have a higher chance of getting wrecked by a calf slicer because I have a hard time sitting on my feet in a kneeling position so my range of motion is already limited. However, when people are flexible they have a lot more room to bend and with calf slicers that's #1 reason we don't see people tapping to them. The highest level competitors are usually quite flexible.
@@RVVBJJ In light of Mikey Musumeci tapping Gabriel Sousa with a calf slicer, and Lucas Barbosa tapping Jozef Chen with a "ham sandwich" slicer, have you reevaluated your position at all?
Depends on the range of motion of the the person in the calf slicer. He will be in a Compromised position regardless as you fold the leg to its full range of motion so the escape becomes more difficult. However, if the guy as great range of motion in his knee, then you can crank it to the max and still not damage his leg much/if at all. Depends on flexibility of the defender, and the breaking mechanics of the attacker.
You’re channel is awesome, this is stuff I wish people told me when I was started. At white-purple belt so much time can wasted on stuff that doesn’t work.
Yep don't care for bicep slicers, and really don't care for rubber guard. While not seen at higher levels I have even more problems with techniques/systems based around attributes that only select individuals can use. Even the high level 10th planet guys a rarely seen attempting rubber guard in comps.
Your wrong calf slicers do not only effect pain. At a tournament I was going against someone who had +35 pounds on me and I was able to break his fibula because he would not tap
To add to the ineffectiveness of calf slicers, you can watch someone break their own radius attempting a modified calf slicer about 17 minutes into this video. th-cam.com/video/wPEaLyqfud8/w-d-xo.html This is an unfortunate example of a technique that probably is high percentage during rolling sessions at the gym but not necessarily appropriate for high level competition, or maybe any competition.
good video. 하지만 이 비디오를 보는 대부분의 사람은 세계 최고수준의 주짓수 선수가 아니고 카프 슬라이서를 배우지 않았다가 심각한 부상을 입을 가능성이 있다고 생각합니다. 시합에서 카프 슬라이서를 쓰려고 하는건 무모할수 있지만 안되는 기술이라고 치고 시간이 없으니 넘어간다고 생각해서는 안된다고 봄.
nah this is a dumb take. 1) "Hobbyists can't learn everything" "It should work on the highest level/I want to be able to submit Gordon Ryan with that technique" 2) "It's a pain submission" I thought you wanted to be scientific... there's pain, yes, but you can destroy the muscle AND joint. Just because you haven't seen it work yet doesn't mean it isn't effective either. What seems to be a problem though is some people injuring their own knee when trying to put a calf slicer on others. I guess it's a combination of you locking in your own knee for the submission and them possibly having their weight on your legs. Anyways, this isn't scientific, it's just looking at what has been in competition. Had you looked before Dean Lister entered the game, you would've said heel hooks don't work at the highest level.
th-cam.com/video/qnlup0LkAUw/w-d-xo.html to the title of the vid. great info. i get nailed by this alot recently and wanna study and learn how to get out. this sucks. but then again all subs sucks being put into lol. plus im a brand spanking new WB. /shrug
@@RVVBJJ went through a few of em. i dont know which one its called but its when the person is in half guard and gets caught by some sorta calf crusher/slicer. still new to the sport. not familiar with all the names. sorry. thats the one im looking to learn how to get out of.
Who else is here after Hulk beat Jozef Chan with a calf slicer at CJI in 2024?
Love it. You’re doing the Lord’s work Rory!
Thanks Stephan!
Hahahahahaha. Bless his heart!
@@RVVBJJ your stuff is brilliant Rory, we need to get you in a room with Priit Mihkelson and Wim Deputter, they'd love a conversation on evidence based approaches
I understand where your going with this but a guy named Tyler Driskell out of Atlanta,GA has ran through some really good guys at brown belt and now doing the same at Blackbelt with calf slicers and knee bars. Separated a guys knee with a slicer at a Fight to Win. He is the best I've seen at them. Double golded NoGi master 1 worlds last year. All subs but one I believe. I do understand that he isn't in there with Pena and Buchecha and he is a rare case but just wanted get this out there in case some people want to develop these subs in their game.
I personally don't care what works at lower belts. I saw multiple FTW calf slicers at brown belt but it's not transferring to black. I tried watching his matches but Flograppling had video clips where no one even steps on the mats (God the suck). Nogi Masters 1 is obviously an accomplishment, but it's not the highest level. Did he use calf slicers to win nogi worlds? I couldnt see all his matches.
Calf slicers can work at lower levels, but there isn't evidence suggesting it worth the time over further developing the other leg locks. Even submitting some guys at black belt isn't necessarily enough, as there are so many varying degrees of skill in regards to a black belt. Plus with the evolution of leg locks the last few years as more people get comfortable with them I imagine calf slicers will be even harder to come across.
@@RVVBJJ Okay, for us lower belts, why would something work on Pro Brown Belts and not Pro Black Belts? What do black belts figure out in that time that they couldn't have figured out by Brown? Is it that the rules just started exposing them to these attacks, so they were essentially "White Belts" when it came to calf-slicers?
@AdamIsForGiants I think you hit the nail on the head. The stupid rule sets not allowing leg locks for the most part until brown belt creates stagnation in many people's development of leg locks. By black belt they have gotten more comfortable with leg locks. I have never seen a strong leg locker submitted by a calf slicer that I can think of, there are black belts that have been submitted by calf slicers but it's rare, 1 time time against Felipe Pena, and in other instances I wonder how adept at leg locks the person being submitted was.
My top 5 favorite/most used submissions
1. Triangle.
2 heel hook.
3 rnc
4guillotine and variations (anaconda, marcelotine darce)
5kimura
I have a really hard time with the toe hold but I’m trying to use it more
Great list with the top 4 getting hit consistently and putting people away. Kimuras aren't high percentage for finishing, but damn the control it gives you is amazing. I personally never even try to finish Kimuras anymore (unless my opponent makes a big mistake), but I'm always hunting for the grip/control to use the lever based rotational control to take my opponent's back. Similar to how the Danaher guys use it.
I agree with the overall sentiment that one shouldn't waste time on BS techniques based on the evidence, but I see significant flaws in how you made your point:
1. What are you measuring? You're looking at the absolute number of successful submissions without having the context of submission attempts. Is the 4% of submissions by omoplata indicative that it's a "low percentage" submission, as in "doesn't succeed often in actually submitting people", as opposed to not being attempted much? Plenty of factors could explain the composition of high-level successful submissions besides raw effectiveness, based on the current meta and what's fashionable at any given moment. Who was heel-hooking people outside of Palhares and Lister a decade ago? How many calf slicers were attempted at ADCC?
2. What's a useful submission to learn? Some submissions might not have high submission success per se, but you still have to respect them or else. So they remain effective as sweeps or as a way to corral the opponent into giving you something else. You'll in fact see people going for the Americana at the highest level (saw that in a Gordon Ryan match recently, can't remember against whom), anticipating that they won't finish it, but counting on it to open up opportunities for armbars or other subs. Do you have data on how many omoplatas led to a successful sweep? So is the move worth knowing or not? And if you don't learn it, how do you defend it except by saying "oh I don't tap short of having my entire knee destroyed"?
In the end the only sure way to submit people is to strangle them as they can't fight through passing out with heart. Otherwise you could say any joint lock relies on pain compliance or referee intervention if you want to 100% make sure you don't end up like Roger Gracie "losing" to Jacare. Danaher often makes that point.
You'd need more thorough, detailed data to fully support your case. The datasets that I've seen on grappling are a joke compared to what you'd find on your typical sportsball where they measure assists, rebounds, etc, not just how points where scored. Even MMA is starting to have decent stats with significant strikes per round, takedown defense in absolute numbers and relative %, etc.
Great comment!
1) Looking at the success of the submission itself when talking about this video, the "Breaking Mechanics." Absolutely omoplatas aren't high percentage when evaluating their submission rates, but the breaking mechanics are undeniable and we consistently see sweeps or transitions off of them. Omoplatas are useful as a position itself, rather than just a submission. We don't with calf slicers as they are usually used either in the "truck position" or off of failed leg lock attempts where the opponent turns out of say something like a heel hook. So far they are used within already existing positions, or are the back up plan to a failed submission of higher effectiveness. Calf slicers using the arm behind the bend of the knee are even worse.
2) Useful submissions need to be able to be entered/exited in a controlled manner, be able to be controlled almost as if it is a position itself, have sound breaking mechanics and threat, and strong follow up options either to sweeps or other submissions. Such as Kimuras, Guillotines, Triangles, Omoplatas, Armbars, etc. Keylocks, Calf Slicers, Electric Chairs, Twisters, Peruvian Neckties (Very effective, just no follow ups or exit strat) and examples of submissions that aren't great for different reasons under the criteria I listed (A topic for another day).
We should be aware of all submissions, anything that could cause us harm. So yes learn what a calf slicer is, how to properly apply it, and learn how to defend it as we would with anything. I'm just saying Calf Slicers are way less effective and we should be spending time on the more effective submissions we see working, rather than building a game around them. The answer is never to "Just ignore them." Americana/Keylocks are conceptually more sound in regards to breaking mechanics and are devastating, and like you said they open up many opportunities. Like I said in the previous paragraph, the threat of a calf slicer isn't useful for anything that has been developed yet that I've seen.
Omoplatas are fantastic and have many examples of how useful they are outside of just the submission so that technique isn't a great example to keep bringing up. I absolutely agree more can be done to have better data, but we don't have that and I'm not the guy to do it. I am saying look at the "Olympic Level" of our sport and watch what is going on. If Calf slicers start showing up consistently then I will change my conclusion.
@olivier travers has a good point. Bjj/submission grappling is such a counter/meta based competition it's hard to use simple science on it. Theoretically you could have success with a bad technique if it takes you opponent by surprise for instance.
Also wasn't kimuras recent all the rage? Setting up for sweeps, back takes and armbars? Also I remember seeing guillotines among the most common submissions a few years ago, when I tried the same though expiriment :)
@@Dvalb yes we have even seen a keylock performed at black belt by Lachlan Giles, but I want to see consistency. That's why success with a bad technique should not be overly praised or attempted to be replicated,, and excellent timing can make a "less technical" move work in the heat of the moment: There are many variables. Kimuras and Guillotines are still quite meta for control. Kimuras aren't hit too often for submissions, but Guillotines are still scene so these moves hold up. If calf slicers go through a crazy developement cycle and become consistent at the high level then I will adapt and learn, I just don't predict this happening.
@@RVVBJJ RVV BJJ haha I mean, it's pretty easy to shit on calf slicers, but it's all on a scale, and it's pretty hard to deside the exact order.
What has worked in the past is one way, but how do you know if somethings bad or the new heel hook.
Really I'm just playing the devils advocate. I get the desire to use "statistics" to find the best/most important techniques. But it hard to use and do science on BJJ, like it's hard to do science on for instance food: Too many variables, hard to test, hard to separate different variables and so on. You get it
@@Dvalb I agree with all of that. The best we can do is watch the best guys and replicate them,watch trends, and understanding the concepts behind the techniques Otherwise we risk developing false positives by getting gym taps, or lower level taps. This can obviously still be fun and useful, but we should aim for the best.
I appreciate your analysis and insight. Something I would like to add is a hobbyist may have a different metric of success then training to defeat the best or using the highest percentage in vouge submissions. There is a lot to be said for having fun and hitting oddball calve slice moves and having a laugh with your training partners. I think that is representative of the majority of Bjj players who have full time jobs and busy lives
100 percent! Jiu Jitsu needs to be fun, and I will do some wacky shit sometimes, but it is important to understand the techniques place and the intent behind it.
We typically are drawn to BJJ for the live sparring aspect and the complexity of the sport/martial art. As hobbyists I think it is even more important in some ways to train higher percentage techniques as we have less time to train due to other obligations in our life. People typically want to get good at something fast, and want to be able to replicate those results against anyone they roll with; its just sometime easy to forget and misjudge a technique's validity when we go through a period of training with the same partners in our own gym. I want to train techniques without stipulations attached like "Well providing the guy has poor flexibility, or providing he taps early because he's worried about injury" as I want stuff that will always work regardless of the opponent I'm facing.
The problem lies more in someone who trains calf slicers and builds a game around it and develops the false positive that this stuff works against everyone. They may even go as far as to teach/have students focus on developing a game themselves around calf slicers" That's the problem. We need to understand how calf slicers work, be able to apply them to whatever effectiveness they are capable of, and then train the defenses to them so we ensure our safety. Similar to how most train a Keylock/Americana.
@@RVVBJJ I watched this video a few years ago when I had **completely** built a game around Calf Slicers. I had unique ways of setting them up from Half Octopus and other meme guards and did Sambo variations with the legs switched. Caught Purples, Browns and even got a hobbyist Blackbelt instructor with one.
It always irked me that I never saw them at EBI or ADCC and deep down I knew they might be a low percentage technique, but couldn't bring my conscious mind to admit it. When this video showed up in my feed my heart sunk, because I knew I was about to get confronted with the truth.
It took a couple years of detox; to stop wanting to immediately go into the Truck from every position possible and I had to relearn how to Gift-Wrap, Spiral Ride, Seatbelt and use two hooks. All of those Truck entry type moves are being retooled to fit into a broader Bolo type system, where the focus is lifting the hips and exposing the lower-back, not chasing after one submission.
Today I run a small academy and don't waste student's time with niche or low % moves. Thank you for putting the time into this video, even if it was just something you needed to get off your chest at the time.
Interesting, maybe you can have Mikey Musumeci teach you how to do them..😅😅
Interesting take but I must disagree and I wonder if your opinion has changed since this video? Calf slicers can be absolutely devastating to the calf, hamstring, and knee. Not only that but what I mostly disagree with is saying that this doesn't fit well with in the system of leglocks. From both SLX and the saddle you have both a calf slicer and a hamstring slicer (beartrap /hamsandwich) if your opponent frees their knee-line from either position they are right there for the taking. At the very least they can be a direct pathway to a back take from a failed leglock. A techniques usefulness is not just about its primary function but its totality of usefulness. Just my humble opinion.
Exactly 💯 correct
Effective or not, I don't see a problem in knowing how to do one. If you see a good opportunity to sinch in a calf slicer, it doesn't hurt knowing that you can do it... It's another option in your arsenal.
Of course, I would say you should learn it so you can understand how to reverse engineer and defend. No harm in having it in the arsenal, the problem is how much time is put into it. At higher belt levels we need to drill and hone technique over and over and if that time is put to building a game around a weaker technique we will see diminishing returns.
Me:
Love your work! But of course it just so happens that I uploaded the calf slicer video to reddit that you made a comment similar to this video and I have a little video on calf slicers in MMA in editing. Would love to have a chat with you sometime about martial arts pedagogy!
I was in a calf slicer mood for a few days while preparing this video, please understand it's purely a debate with no negative feelings attached (I'm sure you already know this!). Hell yeah man! I'm more active on Facebook, message me on my page Rory van Vliet - RVV BJJ or send me a friend request to my personal account. We can talk about whatever.
@@RVVBJJ I completely understand its a purely debate and don't really disagree with what you are saying. I also understand in a video like this it becomes a struggle to decide what you will leave out when explaining your case. I do believe a good discussion can be had about how and when to introduce a move such as a calf slicer as I think it would also be negligent to never show it. Ill be in touch!
You should do a video on the mandible strangle that the DDS guys are so effective with
The old BJJ kumite lloyd irvine organised had Sean Roberts destroy a whole bunch of legit world qualifiers with his calf slicer from bottom. Check it out, it's really good. He was the one that got to do the finals against Keenan because of that move (Amongst others).
Yes I know the tournament well, problem is it's not the best guys. It's a brown belt tournament, if a calf slicer worked on Keenan that could have been something interesting.
Calf slicers can work but once again lower percentage, and phase out at black belt. I also haven't see a strong leg locker ever submitted with a calf slicer, so as people improve with leg locks I think we will see them even less.
I thought we'd see the Sean Roberts Calf Slicer come back once people started defending the False Reap, but it didn't happen.
A variant of the toehold I would recommend further looking into is the linslock/corkscrew lock. Crazy powerful move
Maybe a couple of amendments, i think a calf slicer from backside 50:50 is effective, the video focussed on calf slicers from truck. Charles Oliveira has a finish with it, but more recently Dolidze used it as a control position to finish Hermansson in the UFC. Then there's the 'Ham Sandwich' which Brandon Mccaghren has been doing, you could argue that strictly speak neither of these are calf slicers but i don't know what other vocabulary we have to describe them that's in common usage:
th-cam.com/video/jOMnkSgJ0gY/w-d-xo.html
This was great. Interesting opinion, I hope it generates a lot of discussion . This kind of video is very valuable, please make more like this.
Thank you!
Isn't it possible that the reason why you don't see certain moves at the highest level is because it's simply very difficult to get into that position and not because the finisher move is ineffective? for example we know that a twister is effective and can do a tremendous amount of damage including permanent paralysis....but the fact of the matter is you don't really see twisters like hardly ever. my contention again is that this is due to the fact that it is rare to find yourself in the position to apply a twister. Couldn't this be the same situation going on for calf slicers? Thanks!
Lone Wolf nah the truck is one of the most common positions in no gi Jiu Jitsu and it’s simply an easier submission to not get into, of course it works but it’s hard to get to on a more experienced opponent
Great question!
My answer is No, as Joshua said the truck isn't a rare position so the opportunity is there. It's just a simpler submission to defend, and the breaking mechanics are not as reliably strong. We also have more instances of the calf slicer failing at the highest level as opposed to putting people away such as some of the clips I used in this video.
Let's say what you said is true, and let's look at Keylocks/Americanas. A devastating submission when applied correctly, no one argues its breaking mechanic validity (Even Danaher has a post on this). However, it's nearly impossible to set up on experienced opponent's, we never see Keylocks at the black belt level. So if the submission can't be even be initiated the submission isn't valuable as it has the reverse problem: Can't be started as opposed to finished.
@@RVVBJJ I think Danaher's take was that between setup and breaking, there is the 'bypass opponents resistance' phase which is where both the Americana and Calf Slicer fail.
Are you open to changing your opinion if presented with new data?
Of course, I even say that at the end of the video! A scientific approach requires changing our conclusions in the surfacing of new evidence. So I as had stated, if people start consistently getting fucked up at the high level in 2020 from calf slicers I will be immediately evaluating and dissecting what has caused this shift.
I won't argue with you about not spending much time on it if your not that into it. It isn't a high percentage finishing position. I would contend however that Calf slicer isn't as much applicable in a leg pummeling type battle like you were talking about but it is applicable in a back take scenario. Its redeeming qualities are that if you have a twister hook while you're attacking the back and they put their back on the mat, once you enter a calf slicer they often expose their back defending the slicer and you can climb to the back again. Felipe Costa, and Justin Rader have a few calf slicers in there highlight reals at a high level but they both pull it during back take scenarios with the twister hook. Justin even tore up Samuel Braga's knee pretty good at ultimate absolute. Rafa, Cobrinia, Grippo, the Miao's, Tommy Langaker, Hall and Espen Mathiesen all use the calf slicer/bear trap/twister hook position pretty often taking the back. In that respect its kinda like using the kimura not as a submission but as a control position to get to other things. You can attack calf slicers when your opponent enters a leg drag too if they're being careless with there leg position if it fails it can help you get back to guard.
I agree with the "bear trap" and the control that can bring to advance position. I don't agree with the calf slicer against a leg drag pass, I assume you mean the version using your forearm to wedge behind the knee, that does not work. While I understand the comparison the calf slicer is no where near as useful as a Kimura in terms of control, it could be more compared to a Keylock, but the responses don't set up anything as significant against your opponent. I'm not saying stay away from it all together and that it has no use ever, but it should not be highly regarded as a devastating submission, or even much of an effective one.
Not tapping to submissions that can actually leave you injured is so stupid. I don't care if you're in competition or not, it will always be a dumb idea. Its insane how many guys are fine with giving up a joint just for an extra couple minutes on the matt. Never made sense to me!
What is more effective arm bar or triangles?
Short answer: They are both so good I never bothered to think about this much.
I honestly could not tell you as I have never thought it was important to choose one over the other. Both are strong submissions, can be controlled like positions, be entered and exited many ways, and are seen working at Black Belt world level. An argument can be made for Triangles because when people go unconscious they cannot continue fighting, while people can continue to fight with a broken arm. Both the triangle, and arm bar should be trained extensively as a system and connected interchangeably as they blend so well together.
If you can choose ob triangles john danaher system or arm bar system what do you choose?? Help me please i am in a dilema
Thank you so much for answer to me🙏
@@efhndz7990 I haven't watched either. He's a great instructor so you won't go wrong regardless of your choice.
Great stuff Rory. Thank you.
Does this also refer to calf slicers from Cross body ride/the truck/twister? Im asking this because a guy like Danaher(Picky on moves as picky can get) recommended it there.
At this time yes. This is a common position used to take the back and yet I don't see finishes. I am not selectively picking out the entries or positions, purely if the submission occurs. In this case I'm not seeing evidence to suggest this calf slicer is enough. That being said we need to understand how to apply and defend the submission. I am not saying we should ignore it completely, just not build a game around it.
I love your work Rory! Quick thought though- don’t the breaking mechanics of a slicer make some degree of sense? I mean with enough pressure, the prying action of the calf lifting against the meniscus should snap it I would think.
They do to an extent. The 2 problems are that 1) the shin isnt a large enough wedge behind the knee to always cause damage, and 2) while the Tibia, Fibia, and Femur are rigid the knee moves in the folding direction of the calf slicer. Plus the muscle, ligaments, etc are pliable and will absorb the force to an extent (as with any submission). My knee would have a higher chance of getting wrecked by a calf slicer because I have a hard time sitting on my feet in a kneeling position so my range of motion is already limited. However, when people are flexible they have a lot more room to bend and with calf slicers that's #1 reason we don't see people tapping to them. The highest level competitors are usually quite flexible.
@@RVVBJJ In light of Mikey Musumeci tapping Gabriel Sousa with a calf slicer, and Lucas Barbosa tapping Jozef Chen with a "ham sandwich" slicer, have you reevaluated your position at all?
So if i cranck the calf slicer to the max... will his leg not still be mechanically sound ?
Depends on the range of motion of the the person in the calf slicer. He will be in a Compromised position regardless as you fold the leg to its full range of motion so the escape becomes more difficult. However, if the guy as great range of motion in his knee, then you can crank it to the max and still not damage his leg much/if at all. Depends on flexibility of the defender, and the breaking mechanics of the attacker.
You’re channel is awesome, this is stuff I wish people told me when I was started. At white-purple belt so much time can wasted on stuff that doesn’t work.
I had to relearn or get rid of many techniques from my first 4 years of training. It can be frustrating.
There is an arm in calf slicer and a leg in calf slicer. An arm it will cause pain but leg in will break the joint.
If people aren't flexible then sure, but at higher levels many can eat calf slicers with little issue.
Thanks. Where do you obtain these stats? Interested in similar stats on guards, sweeps, passes I should be focusing on
BJJ Heros has a bunch of stats kept for events.
So do you have a similar view of bicep slicers? You don't really see those at all at higher levels or even in MMA.. What about rubber guard?
Yep don't care for bicep slicers, and really don't care for rubber guard. While not seen at higher levels I have even more problems with techniques/systems based around attributes that only select individuals can use. Even the high level 10th planet guys a rarely seen attempting rubber guard in comps.
Thanks, u hit the nail right on the head with this vid ☺
Your wrong calf slicers do not only effect pain. At a tournament I was going against someone who had +35 pounds on me and I was able to break his fibula because he would not tap
Lol, Felipe pena could bear hug me and cut me in half. 😂😂
Very true
To add to the ineffectiveness of calf slicers, you can watch someone break their own radius attempting a modified calf slicer about 17 minutes into this video. th-cam.com/video/wPEaLyqfud8/w-d-xo.html This is an unfortunate example of a technique that probably is high percentage during rolling sessions at the gym but not necessarily appropriate for high level competition, or maybe any competition.
Sorry your comment was labeled as spam because you posted a link, silly TH-cam. That's excellent thank you for sharing!
good video. 하지만 이 비디오를 보는 대부분의 사람은 세계 최고수준의 주짓수 선수가 아니고 카프 슬라이서를 배우지 않았다가 심각한 부상을 입을 가능성이 있다고 생각합니다. 시합에서 카프 슬라이서를 쓰려고 하는건 무모할수 있지만 안되는 기술이라고 치고 시간이 없으니 넘어간다고 생각해서는 안된다고 봄.
nah this is a dumb take.
1)
"Hobbyists can't learn everything"
"It should work on the highest level/I want to be able to submit Gordon Ryan with that technique"
2) "It's a pain submission"
I thought you wanted to be scientific... there's pain, yes, but you can destroy the muscle AND joint.
Just because you haven't seen it work yet doesn't mean it isn't effective either.
What seems to be a problem though is some people injuring their own knee when trying to put a calf slicer on others. I guess it's a combination of you locking in your own knee for the submission and them possibly having their weight on your legs.
Anyways, this isn't scientific, it's just looking at what has been in competition. Had you looked before Dean Lister entered the game, you would've said heel hooks don't work at the highest level.
th-cam.com/video/qnlup0LkAUw/w-d-xo.html
to the title of the vid. great info.
i get nailed by this alot recently and wanna study and learn how to get out. this sucks. but then again all subs sucks being put into lol. plus im a brand spanking new WB. /shrug
I have some videos on defending calf slicers, including the truck position.
@@RVVBJJ went through a few of em. i dont know which one its called but its when the person is in half guard and gets caught by some sorta calf crusher/slicer. still new to the sport. not familiar with all the names. sorry. thats the one im looking to learn how to get out of.