Obviously, Mike didn't need to make a middle list because he used the incontrovertible math of the BGG weight rating to come up with his first two lists.
Yeah, I’ve always thought that the complexity rating on BGG should be broken up into two parts: “learning” and “mastering.” For example, chess is nearly impossible to rate because it’s obviously very easy to learn, but very hard to master … so how do you rate it? On a smaller note, the complexity rating on BGG goes from green to red instantly. Adding medium colors would be a simple fix, but I guess no one cares.
@@thomasoswald4626 For me personally, "complex" = how easy is it to play, how long are the rules, etc. Therefore chess is a 2 in my book. It's very difficult to play well, but I don't think that's a requirement in the definition of "complex." It would be nice if they stated whether "mastery" is to be considered in our ratings. Having some people include it and others not, is not helpful.
@@jdtyler7 I agree that people SHOULD stick to one definition, but they don't. Chess currently sits at about a 3.7/5 complexity (with the largest chunk of users rating it a 5/5). You'd give it a 2/5, so there's a fundamental issue with the way we all define things. But instead of the confusing debate, I think BGG should just break it up into two categories, or simply call it something other than "complexity."
I think the BGG weight rating should stick with how easy the game is to "learn to play". It's mostly useful for people who have never played a certain game, to inform them whether the game would be a good fit. If you've played the game, you have your own sense of how complex it is, so you don't need to look at BGG. Chess for me would definitely be around a 2 indeed.
I bought Naga Raja in December on your recommendation and absolutely LOVE IT! The push/pull of using cards to get the tile or using them for their special abilities is great. As you have said, this is a game with tile laying, dice roling, and card playing with strategy and some take that. People, if you haven't tried this one yet, check out Zee's review.
I imported Caper last year, based on Zee's recommendation. It's funny to see the reprint was confirmed soon afterwards. It's a lot of fun, I like to break it out when I want a less-serious version of 7 Wonders Duel.
Totally agree with Blue Moon. The first time I played it I found it extremely underwhelming ("it's just War with theme"). However, the person teaching me handily defeated me in every single game we played so I knew there was more to it than what I was seeing. The light bulb clicked when I realized that it's all about giving up ground on purpose allowing you to position yourself better in later hands. Knowing when and how to lose a hand is key. Once you learn each deck this one is a blast to play with another experienced player.
I posted on the other video, but it's worth repeating. It's not a secret what to call a list between casual and advanced, there's already a word for it. It's called intermediate.
Just let them have their fun man. It's a creative way to make lists and a new video series. They have hundreds of straightforward lists and videos go watch those. I welcome the creativity. It's refreshing. Just my two cents.
Wooow Naga Raja, Raptor, Thunder & Lightning, Unmatched... In the end, Zee's "secret list" was probably the one made for me! :D Great games! I definitely need to try Botanik, Caper & Blue Moon. My selection: Top 5+ 2P. Casual Games: 1. Ice Team 2. Le Fantôme de l'Opéra(/ Mr Jack) 3. Jaipur 4. Santorini 5. Tea for two = Claim = Le Renard des Bois = Mandala Top 5+ 2P. Intermediate Games: 1. Naga Raja 2. Raptor 3. Cairn 4. Thunder & Lightning 5. Kero = Schotten Totten = Paris City of Light Top 5+ 2P. Advanced Games: 1. 7WD 2. Targi 3. Skulk Hollow 4. Summoner Wars 5. Unmatched = War Chest
Raptor and Naga Raja are great games! This category is totally Bruno Cathala's wheelhouse (I would have Mr. Jack in New York at the top of my own list)!
24:58 It is also an auction game, in which you have to know when to fight on - in which you could burn through your cards - versus when to cut your losses to save your cards for later, when you feel you have a better chance of winning. Obviously, you have to know your card and your opponent’s decks pretty well.
I'm really surprised that with how much love Zee has shown Empires of the North, it didn't make an appearance on any of these lists. One of my favorite 2 player games.
Man, I'm still waiting for the day when I'll A. Find a copy of Deadline as everytime Zee recommends it I go - ooooh yeah! and B. When Zee finally completes all the Deadline cases.
In Glasgow I think I recall the area built within the circle is 4 x 5 tiles... Really nice little 30min game with this smart rondel mechanism that probably suffers from a rather ugly, oldish euro game style of cover art.
Obviously, Mike didn't need to make a middle list because he used the incontrovertible math of the BGG weight rating to come up with his first two lists.
Yeah, I’ve always thought that the complexity rating on BGG should be broken up into two parts: “learning” and “mastering.” For example, chess is nearly impossible to rate because it’s obviously very easy to learn, but very hard to master … so how do you rate it? On a smaller note, the complexity rating on BGG goes from green to red instantly. Adding medium colors would be a simple fix, but I guess no one cares.
You can't argue with science.
@@thomasoswald4626 For me personally, "complex" = how easy is it to play, how long are the rules, etc. Therefore chess is a 2 in my book. It's very difficult to play well, but I don't think that's a requirement in the definition of "complex." It would be nice if they stated whether "mastery" is to be considered in our ratings. Having some people include it and others not, is not helpful.
@@jdtyler7 I agree that people SHOULD stick to one definition, but they don't. Chess currently sits at about a 3.7/5 complexity (with the largest chunk of users rating it a 5/5). You'd give it a 2/5, so there's a fundamental issue with the way we all define things. But instead of the confusing debate, I think BGG should just break it up into two categories, or simply call it something other than "complexity."
I think the BGG weight rating should stick with how easy the game is to "learn to play". It's mostly useful for people who have never played a certain game, to inform them whether the game would be a good fit. If you've played the game, you have your own sense of how complex it is, so you don't need to look at BGG. Chess for me would definitely be around a 2 indeed.
I bought Naga Raja in December on your recommendation and absolutely LOVE IT! The push/pull of using cards to get the tile or using them for their special abilities is great. As you have said, this is a game with tile laying, dice roling, and card playing with strategy and some take that. People, if you haven't tried this one yet, check out Zee's review.
Bought Blue Moon years ago based on a previous recommendation from you. So glad I did. Great game
I imported Caper last year, based on Zee's recommendation. It's funny to see the reprint was confirmed soon afterwards. It's a lot of fun, I like to break it out when I want a less-serious version of 7 Wonders Duel.
"Do I wanna play high?" - Zee Garcia
I always play high.
Unmatched!! My man!
Totally agree with Blue Moon. The first time I played it I found it extremely underwhelming ("it's just War with theme"). However, the person teaching me handily defeated me in every single game we played so I knew there was more to it than what I was seeing. The light bulb clicked when I realized that it's all about giving up ground on purpose allowing you to position yourself better in later hands. Knowing when and how to lose a hand is key. Once you learn each deck this one is a blast to play with another experienced player.
As I said, it is essentially an auction game in which you gotta know when to hold ‘em and when to fold ‘em :-)
@@JJ_TheGreat know when to walk away, and know when to run.
I posted on the other video, but it's worth repeating. It's not a secret what to call a list between casual and advanced, there's already a word for it. It's called intermediate.
Just let them have their fun man. It's a creative way to make lists and a new video series. They have hundreds of straightforward lists and videos go watch those. I welcome the creativity. It's refreshing. Just my two cents.
Wooow Naga Raja, Raptor, Thunder & Lightning, Unmatched... In the end, Zee's "secret list" was probably the one made for me! :D Great games!
I definitely need to try Botanik, Caper & Blue Moon.
My selection:
Top 5+ 2P. Casual Games: 1. Ice Team 2. Le Fantôme de l'Opéra(/ Mr Jack) 3. Jaipur 4. Santorini 5. Tea for two = Claim = Le Renard des Bois = Mandala
Top 5+ 2P. Intermediate Games: 1. Naga Raja 2. Raptor 3. Cairn 4. Thunder & Lightning 5. Kero = Schotten Totten = Paris City of Light
Top 5+ 2P. Advanced Games: 1. 7WD 2. Targi 3. Skulk Hollow 4. Summoner Wars 5. Unmatched = War Chest
Zee cracks me up.
Just love the Naga Raja. Thanks for drawing attention to it. Cheers on a great list Zee!
The lost middle list!!! I thought I'd never live to see that! :)
Great job, Zee! I'm curious if you have played the two player card game Air, Land, & Sea?
Great job for whoever did the graphics and transitions.
Thank you! I haven’t played that one, no. I missed it.
And thank you again for the editing (I edit all my own stuff).
I really like the draft system for blue moon legends. But i agree fantastic pick
Naga Raja rocks. Blue Moon is quite expensive these days, so I guess I'll have to wait for a reprint to check it out.
Every time Zee talks about Blue Moon, I want to try it. Someone please hit the reprint button!
Caper is really great. One of my favorite two-player games. Highly recommend!
Raptor and Naga Raja are great games! This category is totally Bruno Cathala's wheelhouse (I would have Mr. Jack in New York at the top of my own list)!
Blue Moon doesn’t get enough love. It’s SO good.
I love two player games and love these videos.
Glad to see the game everybody needs for mothers day on this list!
24:58 It is also an auction game, in which you have to know when to fight on - in which you could burn through your cards - versus when to cut your losses to save your cards for later, when you feel you have a better chance of winning. Obviously, you have to know your card and your opponent’s decks pretty well.
I'm really surprised that with how much love Zee has shown Empires of the North, it didn't make an appearance on any of these lists. One of my favorite 2 player games.
There are a lot of great 2 player games. It might still easily be in his Top 20.
We adore Botanik!
Also glad you guys did this list
I'm waiting for caper off the kickstarter been really excited to try it
Really love zee’s lists.
It always start the same , i’m like : it look like shit and i end up being : that game is awesome🤣
Blue Moon Legends will be his #1!
24:30 I told you!!!
Great list! These games are in my "just right"/Goldilocks zone. I especially like the Arena: Roma II pick!
RAPTOR definitely needs a full size reprint, if it gets that, look out!!!
Thunder & Lightning is so under rated, for a card game, excellent!
No 51st State?
The issue was that since Tom hid the third/middle list some games that would fit best here like 7 wonders duel, ended up in the other 2.
Man, I'm still waiting for the day when I'll A. Find a copy of Deadline as everytime Zee recommends it I go - ooooh yeah! and B. When Zee finally completes all the Deadline cases.
No Gipf games? Yinsh? I’d probably add Yinsh in this list. Thanks for the lists.
I'm gonna check out Deadline.
Haha, I love this secret list reveal. 😆 Will Mike release a secret list too?
CROSSOVER!!!
Raptor is so good!
In Glasgow I think I recall the area built within the circle is 4 x 5 tiles... Really nice little 30min game with this smart rondel mechanism that probably suffers from a rather ugly, oldish euro game style of cover art.
3:55 Let’s see how many people feel that his #10 should have been on the “Casual” List.
Excellent list Zee, a few on there I've not heard of. I think Blood Bowl: Team Manger plays best at two, were would you rank that casual or advanced?
How would you compare Thunder & Lightning with Lord of the Rings The Confrontation?
Have the original Hera & Zeus and it's a fun game. The new version looks WAY better as far as graphic design goes.
So where can I get a copy of Thunder & Lightning?
Deadline is great, I need to find someone that wants to play the rest though...
Is BML going to be reprinted soon?
0:17 And why is this a “Top Secret” Top 10 List? Who are you keeping it secret from?
No five tribes on any of your three lists Zee? Wow
Just play Longhorn if you only have 2
zee you're quite the euro nerd ;D
The first Roma game felt unbalanced
I’m a little shocked that Targi, Cave vs Cave and Akrotiri don’t feature on any of these lists! Help!
I put Targi on my advanced list. Love it!
Targi was #3 on Tom's casual list and #7 on Zee's advanced list.
I love blue moon too. Tom is wrong about that one