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Hello, i making a hibrid TT/pista/single speed bike, ¿Which chain would you recommend me? ¿is a standar single speed chain better because is wider maybe has less friction or better a high tech 9-10-11 speed chain? thanks!.
I have a crockpot filled with paraffin wax dedicated to chain maintenance. It's amazing how 'fresh' a drivetrain stays when none of it's components attract or hold grit. Clean is happy.
Thanks for the watt-saving tips! I was impressed by the parrafin-based lubricant mention at the end. One tip on the long metal word "molybdenum" - which many people shorten to "molly." It is pronounced "moh-lib-deh-numb" not "moh-lib-dee-um." It is a tongue-twister, for sure. The word is at 6:48 and again ten seconds later. Ride safely, and save those watts for distance! :D
Some great advice there, but 11 speed chains arn't compatible with 9 speed systems because the chain gets stuck between chainring when changing down to the smaller chainring.
Great vid, I feel like I learnt something great and very applicable. 30watt is a lot of saving. Well my chain is not old, so I guess I can just save 15watt from cleaning. That's still very worthwhile power saving.
Just changed my chain and chainwheels + set on one of my bikes after around 15K. Could not see even the slightest wear comparing the new and old stuff in spite of a good deal steep climbing. I credit this the fact I only ride this bike with a 99% clean and well lubed chain + this bike was almost never used in rain. Just proves a well-oiled system will go "forever". Shimano Ultega, Dura Ace chain, Finish line wet/ceramic alternating (not doing too well in the test btw...).
everything was so good up until chain wear/stretch with the weight analogy. the chain doesn't stretch from tension, the cumulative wear on all the pins add up to more play between each link which makes the chain longer and seemingly stretched.
True, that tension itself is not the cause of elongation wear, but it does play a role. The more tension on the chain, the higher the frictional shear stresses that tear away the material within the links and rollers, and the quicker the chain wears out.
Morgan blue also make great lubes, as used by many TdF teams. I now see you have it in your 2014 test and it did well, so happy about that. Will try some of your top ones as well. As a cheap lube on old bikes, I use chainsaw lube, same as most but a fraction of the cost
Good video. A bit of chain love does seem too make a difference , Doing my 15 or 20 k daily ride ..... Depending on my old bones , About once a week I give my old mountain bike chain a dam good spray drowning with WD 40 using the little tube that turns the spray into a stream. I Can definitely feel a bit less pedal effort on the ride.
The WD40 shown is a water dispersant, not a lube. Diesel is too thick to clean chains with. Petrol and paraffin are great chain cleaners. Aldi's steam cleaner works very well with water soluble degreaser. Best chain lube I have used so far is the Castrol, Muc off, and WD40 motorcycle chain waxes. Lasts for over a 100miles and good in wet weather.
If you live somewhere where winter is generally cold, wet, salty roads and grim, then you can use diesel as a chain cleaner. When I lived in England and went out for 5 to 7 hours each saturday and sunday and came back with dirt and salt crusted bikes in winter, I'd have a cold soapy bucket of water waiting for a quick 5 minute wash down and a can of diesel and stiff paint brush to clean the chain and chainrings. It was cheap and worked well. Now, companies like Park have effective chain cleaning tools and cleaners that do the job better. Wash the bike, clean the chain and drive train quickly and after you've showered and chowed down some food, come back and then dry and lube the chain. If you do it often and get in the habit, it's very easy to keep things really clean.
I'll add one point about degreasers that transfers from every other application of degreasers in lubricated machines. Be sure the degreaser is completely removed one way or another before applying the new lubricant, otherwise you seriously degrade your lubrication right away.
It is a very good video. The main issues would be pretty much solved by having full enclosure for the chain drive, but unfortunately this is not done on most bicycles. With a fully enclosed chain there is no build up of dirt so you don't have to clean the chain. Also chain wear is drastically reduced. A chain that normally might only last months will last for years and years.
I always thought that "chain stretch" was due to the pins and bushings wearing out inside, giving the pins more room which will eventually make the chain seem "stretched".
What I've read is that larger sprockets are more efficient, because friction is primarily determined by the angle change of each roller and the tension on the chain. Small-small has much higher chain tension (on the power side) than large-large, and the change in angle for each link is higher. This same study also basically said cross chaining wasn't a concern compared to pulley size recumbent guys with power-side idler pulleys have noted slight differences that favour a 23 tooth idler over a 15 tooth one as well.
In an age of marginal gains. The drag from cross chaining is worth avoiding. Personally, if I can hear noise from the chain when I am cross chaining, my feeling is that this is not only causing loss of power going forward but also causing wear on the chain. Both of which are worth reducing.
Your position on chain tension and lubrication are inconsistent with the IHPVA (International Human Powered Vehicle Association) actual test results. The IHPVA finds that bicycle drive train efficiency goes up with chain tension, at least up to a practical limit, we are not talking about banjo string tightness here. A derailleur equipped bike will have virtually NO static chain tension. 100 years of bicycle and motorcycle drive technology dictates that drive chains should have between a half inch and an inch of up and down motion at the midpoint between sprockets. The IHPVA also finds that complete lack of lubrication will not affect drive train efficiency. I have to admit this is very hard to believe and I never let chains dry out.
Hi +Harv Woien very interesting observations to be sure but I cannot find the actual data from the tests you mention. do you have a link. I am sure future tests will also bring new developments. regarding tension I imagine the effect is a U shaped curve. too low = bad too high = very bad. I find it hard to believe that sky high tension will help because every link and articulation would be under severe pressure. Your recommendation of "half inch and an inch of up and down motion at the midpoint between sprockets" seems to suggest mid-tension in my opinion, not too high not too low. Thanks for the comment.
Here is the link: www.ihpva.org/HParchive/PDF/hp50-2000.pdf You are correct in that too high a chain tension would result in damage to chain and sprockets. On a bicycle drive train setup, it is very easy to avoid this condition, as 'binding' is easily detected and reversed. Of course, this would be for single speed or internal geared hubs only. For derailleur systems, optimum chain tension can never be achieved.
Just looking again at this interesting paper, does it take into account ability to change gears smoothly, or just lab conditions essentially in a fixed gear?
Well pointed out. Chet Kyle and the IHPVA provided lots of studies that sadly have been lost. Thankfully the study that you pointed out isn't one of those. I have an original binder of the first volumes of Cycling Science that Chet put out back in the 80's and 90's. Lots of information backed up by tests rather than just people warbling on. What needs to happens in videos like this is a series of tests to validate the claims made. Take a new chain and test on a dyno. Go ride it for a few hundred miles to get it dirty and test on the dyno again. Repeat for all the tests, in order. Just because "waxing a chain" might get you 4 watts and tensioning the chain might get you 3 watts, the combined total will never equal 7 watts. I wish it would work like that but it never does. Deep cleaning by shaking in a bottle? Are you kidding me? You will not get out the lube from Shimano on a Dura Ace chain by just shaking it a bit. You'll need a sealed container and a small ultrasonic machine and leave it a while. You can't get the parafin wax and telfon in until you get the old grease out. I have never noticed, even when removing a worn chain that's been "winter cr@pped on", that I gained 30 watts when putting a new chain on, despite having had a power meter
Automatic transmission fluid is better than regular motor oil so if you have both use ATF1 because when you think about they are both working with gears (there are gears in transmissions
recent tests showed that cross chaining 53;28 wasn't as bad as using small chainrings/cprockets generally (eg: 39/11). The greater friction required to make the tighter turns around the small rings was worse than cross chaining.
Hi! Big THANK to you sir for your excellent and precise knowledge you so generously share with us here! Highly appreciated! Wishing you the very Best always! /Charl
You can't really messure drive train efficiency in watts. You can although messure how much percent of a given wattage transfers from your crank into the road. And as there is the law of conservation of power you can actually hear if something is going siginficantly wrong, because "lost" energy has to transfer into other forms of energy like noise or heat.
People mostly prefer sensational numbers also in academics, giving the top most result using the keywords "up to" is a common approach in lit. Even if the number 30 watt is for the sprinter that produces 2000 watt momentarily, still a good number. I mean, everybody that uses a power meter, can guess, dirty drivetrain causes only a few watts. What makes the difference for me is the feeling under your feet and legs when you ride clean drivetrain, it makes the flow perfect.
Your right about the home deep clean BUT DONT USE PETROL in a container and shake it up - I did, and for some reason the petrol wants to expand as you shake it - HUGE pressure builds up, with obvious safety implications...........I now use white spirit or paraffin and it works just great without the explosive potential. I have an ultrasonic at home, a good one, which I used to use, but now I MUCH prefer to simply dump the chain in an old plastic milk container, and add a little solvent, shake it up and repeat.........I then use the old dirty solvent as firelighter on a rag in our woodstove.........I can honestly say shaking up in a container is as good as the ultrasonic, but quicker and much easier................I also have made my own paraffin chain wax from candles and paraffin, and that is super slippery and super clean on the chain and cogs.....35years of cycling and I think I've got the system that I'll stick with for the rest of my days. The wax also works well on pine furniture like "Briwax" - Very Happy !
Argh you say 5g of PTFE in 500g of wax but I accidently put 50g PTFE (no Molly though) still.. it _seems_ Oki.. at least, the chain feels good and it's clean to the touch. Guess I'll add a bit more wax to the mix next time I turn the cooker thing on and add a bit of molybdenum for good measure, I have some now. Cheers boss!
Accurate post. When my chain squeaks of shows a sign of rust I pop my chain off, dump into melted paraffin (always put paraffin pan into a pan of water and then heat [this way the paraffin doesn't catch fire]). I'm good to go for about 3K miles. (Chain stays clean)
I think chain efficiency may be much more than just a few watts. 53/(15/16/17) would be within the 3% angle, but you will lose about 0.5% for every other gear to the left or right from there.
Although there's a lot of opinions on the best way to look after your chain the worst thing you can do to a new chain is to give it a deep clean, as you will strip the factory applied lubricant from inside the chain which will be very hard to replace no matter how much lube you apply after! You are better off just to clean the chain normally so it's dry then apply your chosen lube!
wax is best, it extend chain life for 30-50%, i tested it, wax it every 120-140km, every 3. waxing was with cleaning in petrol to clean old dirty wax, i use induction heater to heat up chain on bike without flame and put some wax in stick to touch and melt on chain
The bigger the potential difference between where you are on your bike, and your destination means you'll get there faster. But that means you must have the toothless wheels. Like the ones on the electrical trolley bus.
Gawd. Even 10-speed chains scare me. Now , I’m supposed to trust 11-speed? I’ve been using paraffin wax tor years, with great success. Even in sloppy winter conditions, the dirt and grime don’t seem to make their way in between the pin and rollers.
Chains are $26, the process is actually more fun than the effects of the end result. There is no efin way your gona get 30 Watts out of ANY lube method either ! Just enjoying being on a bike has been lost with Strava and lube Nazis.
R Terry 5p yrs ago, I started riding bike of my grandfather, 29” type wheels, rim brakes, no gears, hard saddles. I don’t remember my grandpa nor me ever bothered about lubricating chain nor doesn’t it ever broke. We never kept tools with us. Roads were not paved. I learned riding bike on that even when I wasn’t able reach saddle (paddling across bars) and went on country sides, across paddy fields for miles. This is how punctured tires were being fixed: displace tire from rim (without removing wheels as they were through excel) pop out tube, pump air into it and spit on it, inch by inch till you find bubble coming out.🤣 then mark it with dust or brittle piece of clay pot. Release air from the tube. Take a piece of old tube, smear it with special grease and stick at the spot. Rubber on both side would dissolve momentarily but solvent would evaporate before it penetrate the tube completely. When it is about to dry out rub over the seal to complete sealing process. Insert the tube inside tire and onto the ream to make Wheeler whole again. Pump the air again. This tube would last forever till it is punctured all over.🤣 No replacement. We used to wear out each part of bike so much. We were EPA conscious without knowing about it. There was market for scrap and people would come to our home often to collect and pay us for by weight. What a win win deal of recycling.🤣 we used to earn by selling our quarterly dumps of news papers and used stationeries too.😊
That's a very hard question to answer without knowing what riding/training you are doing and even then hard to predict. Why not just measure it and see? However back of an envelope cal....the watt/kg will usually stay about the same with weight loss providing you train the same.
What if the 11speed chain jams between the chain rings on your 9 speed system due to the fact it narrower....? Be careful as your recommendation may be mechanically callus!
The internal width of modern chains 8,9,10,11 is always the same ie they fit over the same cog size/width....its the outer measured width that differs and then only slightly. If anyone actually had the chain jam between cogs I'd be surprised because the width of the chain is bigger that the inter-cog width. However a chain can jam between cassette and frame of course.
To save ten watts of video power STOP WITH THE SYNTHESIZER ALREADY! What do you think this does on my huge, studio monitor loudspeakers? You don't know... you mix on tiny desktops with no bass. And we can tell. This bizarre attempt at emphasis is a destructive distraction. Otherwise... great video and thanks for the infoze!
hi I have a video request: I have a9 speed drivetrain with a wheelset that I love. I don't want to change my wheels in order to upgrade to 11 speed. what is the best solution? thanks! love your videos!
Well, engaging, but these clearly are not additive. Thanks though for the recipe for the FF chain wax - that is very helpful for those seeking another watt.
I would imagine there is a difference betyween a brand new chain, and a slightly used chain. I would imagine that chains need a break in period. A period of time for all the tighest moving parts to wear down a little into order to bed correctly. Perhaps the manufactuere is a little lazy and they are not made to blue print standard, but perhaps just a few thou off. then, as the chain is used (and cared for) it free's up. offers less resistance, than when new. I dunno. just guesssing.
one of the best, but its not clear how much better it is than 'normal' wax. for the very best chain performance clean thoroughly and do an immersion wax.
If you are not worried about slightly imperfect shifting you could give it a try as it will fit the cassette cogs and it may work but it is not recommended
Non synthetic oils are biodegradable so loose any "oil" properties very quickly like days , and finally you get really hard problem to solve , totally not recommended even theoretically .
Everybody loves to promote the use of wax. If wax could stay in a liquid state then I would too. The problem is that when wax cools off it becomes little flakes of wax that flake off so now your metal to metal in your chain. Your brain sees the clean chain and your impressed, I am not.
Somebody should make a video on "How to save up to 100W from JUST drivetrain" by comparing it to a muddy, rusty, improper length/size chain with seized up links.
It is there, look at 6:51 closer. The difference between a very good quality dry lube and WD40 is 1W... So i'll just keep using WD40 to clean the chain, lube the chain, and make my bike nice and shiny! :)
So I've gone to paraffin on all bikes. Soaked chain in gas, cleaned well, then ultrasonic cleaner with simple green, then dried, then in melted paraffin. Boy is the chain stiff, but after a few revolutions, it seems to be just fine. Vello had an article about chain lubes and waxes seemed to be really good. In any case, it is very clean. They say good for 500ish miles.
I hate to say this but if this was so relevant for today’s cyclists you would spend a few more minutes discussing 1 ensuring the rear mech is properly set and is indexing correctly 2 telling people NOT to lube or grease chains but to wax them. Use diesel on a chain.... really??? 3 never use new chains on a sportive/race. Not as efficient as an older chain 4 you really need to tell people that 87.4% of statistics are made up... including yours And please mate... lubes on chains also attract the metal filings from the chain, so if you are foolish enough to own a chain cleaner, use a magnet inside it There’s no point telling people you can save efficiency if you don’t tell them fully how to prevent it.. prevention being better than a cure You should be the English guy on the shopping channel selling floor steam cleaners that no one uses... and if you don’t use one you can save 500w The most annoying thing is you cannot say for certain how much power anyone can save due to the individuals power consumption, power output and rising style/technique And the chain was invented in 1880. This fact alone could save you a few watts looking shit up on wiki
If a bicycle chain was losing 30W it would be too hot to touch after a hard effort of more than a few minutes. While I agree with the advice you’re giving the numbers are unrealistic
....so when a sprinter does 550w at 99rpm you might not be aware that around 30w of total losses are thru the chain (fft.tips/drivetrain). Following your logic, at the end of their sprint you are saying their chain is too hot too touch?! Interesting.
FastFitnessTips: Cycling Science! That’s exactly the point I’m making. The energy “lost” has to go somewhere. In the case of a chain, energy is converted to either noise or heat. IF losses were as high as claimed, then the energy being converted to heat would heat up the chain by a significant amount, which it doesn’t. I’m not saying for a moment that there isn’t a significant amount of energy lost. All of your tips on chain selection and maintenance are valid. The 30W claim is just an over exaggeration, unless we’re comparing an ideal set up to a chain that came out of a scrapyard bin.
@@bikescience1 in a closed system you are right, the chain would heat up and if it was 30w friction, then a 250g chain would heat up about 10deg per minute (Watts of input = 0.05 x Lbs of Steel x ΔT in°F / Heat-Up Time) but you are completely forgetting that the chain is a excellent radiator and it looses this heat (ΔT above ambient) almost perfectly due to its large surface area amplified by wind chill very much like your car radiator. The end result is the chain doesn't get hot at all in reality. However I thank you for your interesting thought experiment!
FastFitnessTips: Cycling Science! At the very least, you’re “double accounting” in places. The claimed gains for a Teflon/Paraffin wax treatment already must include the savings for a deep clean for instance. Try waxing your chain without deep cleaning it first and the wax simply falls off. For me a better approach to this would be to test power losses for different chains at a known input power, then produce a comparison chart including everything from worst case scenario to best. Rusty old shed chain, decent chain that has stretched, box fresh chain with packing grease, etc etc.
Not so. If you complete an endurance event, for example, saving 30 Watts - or whatever - may be the difference between finishing the ride feeling OK, to feeling like you are about to die. And, did you never want to gain a Strava KOM. Additionally, if your chain is working efficiently, it may last longer. A dirty, neglected, chain will let you down eventually.
Thank you so much for making these videos for others. Value info: I can use an 11 speed cahin on my ultegra 11-28 cassette, thats cool to know. Quick question: I guess I can use an ultegra 11-28 cassette with an 11 speed chain to go on the sram red 22 chainring. See linkg: www.bike24.com/p256780.html
hi, the SRAM red 22 chainring works with 10 and 11 sp. the SRAM 10sp chainring actually works with 10 and 11sp too. An 11sp chain will work with a 10sp cassette but an 11 sp cassette needs an 11sp chain. Ultegra and dura-ace are compatible/switchable.
Everyone thinks this, manufacturers state it as law, but from my one-off of necessity trial of a 10 speed Shimano 105 chain on an 11 speed cassette, I can state with authority it isn't true. Test this yourself. 1/3rd the price, works just fine. No rub, no binding, perfect shifts. G'head. Test it yourself.
I gonna save 30watts riding to burger king then lose 150watts coming back :) I've been using budget chains for years without any issues of power loss! Come to think of it never measured anyway since I am not a racer! Seriously all this BS about watts and chains are irrelevant for recreational rider. You would have lot more improvement by losing 20lb of body fat.Noi I am not going to pay 80-150 dollars for chain!!! 15 Sram will do!
Maybe not the cheapest option, but maybe getting 3-4 chains simultaniously? every 200km(i use wax, so thats about the time when i would have to bath the chain again in paraffin wax and parafin oil), simply change to the next one, that way you always have a relatively unworn chain for long time. Also, in the case of waxing, if it actually does get really dirty, simply take it off, put on the next one. No need to clean it, wax it and all the stuff that is involved just wax all 3-4 chains at once. Saves a bit of time too BTW: Buying bike specific degreaser is probably the most cost-uneffective thing, right after buying pinarello frames. I personally use orange/citrus degreaser and heat it slowly up to just under 40°C for factory chains with the factory lube. Put the chain into a container, add the degreaser(or mineral spirits also work srly good), shake for a few minutes and your chain should be sparlking clean and rattle like well...a rattle.
ok something happened here which never happened before with me - indepth discussion of chain life/performance without anything incorect, unclear, ambiguous, complicated, product biased... well done!
Just rewatched - I'm doing most of these tips now - wippermann 11sp, sonic cleaner (£10 off Ebay!) paraffin wax with tungsten disulphide applied by heat. Clean and quiet.
I once restored an old road bike, and with everything done correctly it didn't power itself, but I did discover that many of my local streets had downhill grades that I hadn't previously noted
I hate when peoppe give a specific number like 30 Watts. What if I'm a 6 year old with a 30 watt power outout. "Cycling companiess hate him, double your watts in 5 minutes." Percentages are bad enough but a static number?
You are 100% right; ours was a rather primitive approach two years ago! Send me an email and you can trial our forthcoming drivetrain loss calculator and also checkour our more nuanced chain wear/watts calculator (th-cam.com/video/gDmUPMsGNKo/w-d-xo.html). Believe me we are working on a better solution right now.
wait. did I see WD-40 in your list of lubes? I have been using that for decades, and yet, every bike shop I ever go into yells at me (yes, I had a bike shop tech yell at me) to never use WD-40. meh. it works. and, I use an engine de-greaser. Anything that cleans off a car's engine works brilliantly on bike chains as well.
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Hello, i making a hibrid TT/pista/single speed bike, ¿Which chain would you recommend me? ¿is a standar single speed chain better because is wider maybe has less friction or better a high tech 9-10-11 speed chain? thanks!.
Any suggestions?
I have a crockpot filled with paraffin wax dedicated to chain maintenance. It's amazing how 'fresh' a drivetrain stays when none of it's components attract or hold grit. Clean is happy.
Thanks for the watt-saving tips! I was impressed by the parrafin-based lubricant mention at the end.
One tip on the long metal word "molybdenum" - which many people shorten to "molly."
It is pronounced "moh-lib-deh-numb" not "moh-lib-dee-um." It is a tongue-twister, for sure. The word is at 6:48 and again ten seconds later.
Ride safely, and save those watts for distance! :D
Some great advice there, but 11 speed chains arn't compatible with 9 speed systems because the chain gets stuck between chainring when changing down to the smaller chainring.
I've installed 12 speed chain to 10 speed chainrings without any problem
Great vid, I feel like I learnt something great and very applicable. 30watt is a lot of saving. Well my chain is not old, so I guess I can just save 15watt from cleaning. That's still very worthwhile power saving.
Just changed my chain and chainwheels + set on one of my bikes after around 15K. Could not see even the slightest wear comparing the new and old stuff in spite of a good deal steep climbing. I credit this the fact I only ride this bike with a 99% clean and well lubed chain + this bike was almost never used in rain. Just proves a well-oiled system will go "forever". Shimano Ultega, Dura Ace chain, Finish line wet/ceramic alternating (not doing too well in the test btw...).
A rusty old chain is the best way to get fit.
with sand in your water bottles your set for top fitness.
And flat tyres.
Lol I do this with low tyre pressure... train at 80 ish psi but pump upto 110 for a race... give me a extra min or so over a 20k race
On a rusty steel frame
everything was so good up until chain wear/stretch with the weight analogy. the chain doesn't stretch from tension, the cumulative wear on all the pins add up to more play between each link which makes the chain longer and seemingly stretched.
True, that tension itself is not the cause of elongation wear, but it does play a role. The more tension on the chain, the higher the frictional shear stresses that tear away the material within the links and rollers, and the quicker the chain wears out.
Not my chains. I put so much torque they actually stretch.
@@mitchellmtb7202 same for my girlfriends
I run 2 chains one on the bike and one cleaned and wax dipped ready to go. Helps keep everything on the bike cleaner. Never going back to other types.
Morgan blue also make great lubes, as used by many TdF teams. I now see you have it in your 2014 test and it did well, so happy about that. Will try some of your top ones as well. As a cheap lube on old bikes, I use chainsaw lube, same as most but a fraction of the cost
Good video.
A bit of chain love does seem too make a difference ,
Doing my 15 or 20 k daily ride ..... Depending on my old bones ,
About once a week I give my old mountain bike chain a dam good spray drowning with WD 40 using the little tube that turns the spray into a stream.
I Can definitely feel a bit less pedal effort on the ride.
The WD40 shown is a water dispersant, not a lube. Diesel is too thick to clean chains with. Petrol and paraffin are great chain cleaners. Aldi's steam cleaner works very well with water soluble degreaser.
Best chain lube I have used so far is the Castrol, Muc off, and WD40 motorcycle chain waxes. Lasts for over a 100miles and good in wet weather.
If you live somewhere where winter is generally cold, wet, salty roads and grim, then you can use diesel as a chain cleaner. When I lived in England and went out for 5 to 7 hours each saturday and sunday and came back with dirt and salt crusted bikes in winter, I'd have a cold soapy bucket of water waiting for a quick 5 minute wash down and a can of diesel and stiff paint brush to clean the chain and chainrings. It was cheap and worked well.
Now, companies like Park have effective chain cleaning tools and cleaners that do the job better. Wash the bike, clean the chain and drive train quickly and after you've showered and chowed down some food, come back and then dry and lube the chain. If you do it often and get in the habit, it's very easy to keep things really clean.
I'll add one point about degreasers that transfers from every other application of degreasers in lubricated machines. Be sure the degreaser is completely removed one way or another before applying the new lubricant, otherwise you seriously degrade your lubrication right away.
It is a very good video. The main issues would be pretty much solved by having full enclosure for the chain drive, but unfortunately this is not done on most bicycles. With a fully enclosed chain there is no build up of dirt so you don't have to clean the chain. Also chain wear is drastically reduced. A chain that normally might only last months will last for years and years.
Interesting suggestion thanks
O-Ring Chain
I always thought that "chain stretch" was due to the pins and bushings wearing out inside, giving the pins more room which will eventually make the chain seem "stretched".
yes thats true, great article on chain wear here sheldonbrown.com/chain-wear.html
What I've read is that larger sprockets are more efficient, because friction is primarily determined by the angle change of each roller and the tension on the chain. Small-small has much higher chain tension (on the power side) than large-large, and the change in angle for each link is higher. This same study also basically said cross chaining wasn't a concern compared to pulley size
recumbent guys with power-side idler pulleys have noted slight differences that favour a 23 tooth idler over a 15 tooth one as well.
In an age of marginal gains. The drag from cross chaining is worth avoiding. Personally, if I can hear noise from the chain when I am cross chaining, my feeling is that this is not only causing loss of power going forward but also causing wear on the chain. Both of which are worth reducing.
I am always cleaning my chain!! If it is dry and not that dusty it's once a week. If it was a crappy rainy day right after.
Your position on chain tension and lubrication are inconsistent with the IHPVA (International Human Powered Vehicle Association) actual test results. The IHPVA finds that bicycle drive train efficiency goes up with chain tension, at least up to a practical limit, we are not talking about banjo string tightness here. A derailleur equipped bike will have virtually NO static chain tension. 100 years of bicycle and motorcycle drive technology dictates that drive chains should have between a half inch and an inch of up and down motion at the midpoint between sprockets. The IHPVA also finds that complete lack of lubrication will not affect drive train efficiency. I have to admit this is very hard to believe and I never let chains dry out.
Hi +Harv Woien very interesting observations to be sure but I cannot find the actual data from the tests you mention. do you have a link. I am sure future tests will also bring new developments. regarding tension I imagine the effect is a U shaped curve. too low = bad too high = very bad. I find it hard to believe that sky high tension will help because every link and articulation would be under severe pressure. Your recommendation of "half inch and an inch of up and down motion at the midpoint between sprockets" seems to suggest mid-tension in my opinion, not too high not too low. Thanks for the comment.
Here is the link: www.ihpva.org/HParchive/PDF/hp50-2000.pdf
You are correct in that too high a chain tension would result in damage to chain and sprockets. On a bicycle drive train setup, it is very easy to avoid this condition, as 'binding' is easily detected and reversed. Of course, this would be for single speed or internal geared hubs only. For derailleur systems, optimum chain tension can never be achieved.
Just looking again at this interesting paper, does it take into account ability to change gears smoothly, or just lab conditions essentially in a fixed gear?
Well pointed out. Chet Kyle and the IHPVA provided lots of studies that sadly have been lost. Thankfully the study that you pointed out isn't one of those. I have an original binder of the first volumes of Cycling Science that Chet put out back in the 80's and 90's. Lots of information backed up by tests rather than just people warbling on.
What needs to happens in videos like this is a series of tests to validate the claims made. Take a new chain and test on a dyno. Go ride it for a few hundred miles to get it dirty and test on the dyno again. Repeat for all the tests, in order. Just because "waxing a chain" might get you 4 watts and tensioning the chain might get you 3 watts, the combined total will never equal 7 watts. I wish it would work like that but it never does.
Deep cleaning by shaking in a bottle? Are you kidding me? You will not get out the lube from Shimano on a Dura Ace chain by just shaking it a bit. You'll need a sealed container and a small ultrasonic machine and leave it a while. You can't get the parafin wax and telfon in until you get the old grease out.
I have never noticed, even when removing a worn chain that's been "winter cr@pped on", that I gained 30 watts when putting a new chain on, despite having had a power meter
@@Swampster70 Either way, how would you notice with a power meter?
Automatic transmission fluid is better than regular motor oil so if you have both use ATF1 because when you think about they are both working with gears (there are gears in transmissions
Really excellent video thank you. love the graphics.
recent tests showed that cross chaining 53;28 wasn't as bad as using small chainrings/cprockets generally (eg: 39/11). The greater friction required to make the tighter turns around the small rings was worse than cross chaining.
thanks John, FYI our sheet fft.tips/drivetrain has all the stats built in on cross-chaining
Hi! Big THANK to you sir for your excellent and precise knowledge you so generously share with us here! Highly appreciated! Wishing you the very Best always! /Charl
Thank you for the feedback!!
You can't really messure drive train efficiency in watts.
You can although messure how much percent of a given wattage transfers from your crank into the road.
And as there is the law of conservation of power you can actually hear if something is going siginficantly wrong, because "lost" energy has to transfer into other forms of energy like noise or heat.
Dude…….thanks best honest information ℹ️ all week 🤓🤨
People mostly prefer sensational numbers also in academics, giving the top most result using the keywords "up to" is a common approach in lit. Even if the number 30 watt is for the sprinter that produces 2000 watt momentarily, still a good number. I mean, everybody that uses a power meter, can guess, dirty drivetrain causes only a few watts. What makes the difference for me is the feeling under your feet and legs when you ride clean drivetrain, it makes the flow perfect.
Where did the data for the graph of chain lubes at 6:35 come from?
Great tips and thanks for sharing.
Your right about the home deep clean BUT DONT USE PETROL in a container and shake it up - I did, and for some reason the petrol wants to expand as you shake it - HUGE pressure builds up, with obvious safety implications...........I now use white spirit or paraffin and it works just great without the explosive potential. I have an ultrasonic at home, a good one, which I used to use, but now I MUCH prefer to simply dump the chain in an old plastic milk container, and add a little solvent, shake it up and repeat.........I then use the old dirty solvent as firelighter on a rag in our woodstove.........I can honestly say shaking up in a container is as good as the ultrasonic, but quicker and much easier................I also have made my own paraffin chain wax from candles and paraffin, and that is super slippery and super clean on the chain and cogs.....35years of cycling and I think I've got the system that I'll stick with for the rest of my days. The wax also works well on pine furniture like "Briwax" - Very Happy !
You can improve your liquid paraffin with tungsten disulfide
Argh you say 5g of PTFE in 500g of wax but I accidently put 50g PTFE (no Molly though) still.. it _seems_ Oki.. at least, the chain feels good and it's clean to the touch. Guess I'll add a bit more wax to the mix next time I turn the cooker thing on and add a bit of molybdenum for good measure, I have some now. Cheers boss!
i want to ask .. why are sram and fsa encouraging cross chaining, while shimano and campagnolo are discouraging it?
Very meanningfull video. Did not know and surely will consider those facts.
Accurate post. When my chain squeaks of shows a sign of rust I pop my chain off, dump into melted paraffin (always put paraffin pan into a pan of water and then heat [this way the paraffin doesn't catch fire]). I'm good to go for about 3K miles. (Chain stays clean)
I think chain efficiency may be much more than just a few watts. 53/(15/16/17) would be within the 3% angle, but you will lose about 0.5% for every other gear to the left or right from there.
exact loss calculator is on our patreon channel right now.
Although there's a lot of opinions on the best way to look after your chain the worst thing you can do to a new chain is to give it a deep clean, as you will strip the factory applied lubricant from inside the chain which will be very hard to replace no matter how much lube you apply after! You are better off just to clean the chain normally so it's dry then apply your chosen lube!
Nice work .
wax is best, it extend chain life for 30-50%, i tested it, wax it every 120-140km, every 3. waxing was with cleaning in petrol to clean old dirty wax, i use induction heater to heat up chain on bike without flame and put some wax in stick to touch and melt on chain
Interesting and informative... great work 👍
"Good high tolerances" ? You don't know what you are talking about. Tight/low tolerance is good. High tolerance means low precision.
Dušan Barlík : Flammable and inflammable mean the same thing. I had no difficulty in understanding him to mean close tolerance.
Awesome videos!
I saved 5 volts using carbonschweiber on my crank arms. With toothless wheels ofc.
Volts?
The bigger the potential difference between where you are on your bike, and your destination means you'll get there faster. But that means you must have the toothless wheels. Like the ones on the electrical trolley bus.
Thank you, bang on
3o Watts ? Maybe if it was a rusty mess before hand.
Gawd. Even 10-speed chains scare me. Now , I’m supposed to trust 11-speed?
I’ve been using paraffin wax tor years, with great success. Even in sloppy winter conditions, the dirt and grime don’t seem to make their way in between the pin and rollers.
Chains are $26, the process is actually more fun than the effects of the end result. There is no efin way your gona get 30 Watts out of ANY lube method either ! Just enjoying being on a bike has been lost with Strava and lube Nazis.
R Terry 5p yrs ago, I started riding bike of my grandfather, 29” type wheels, rim brakes, no gears, hard saddles. I don’t remember my grandpa nor me ever bothered about lubricating chain nor doesn’t it ever broke. We never kept tools with us. Roads were not paved. I learned riding bike on that even when I wasn’t able reach saddle (paddling across bars) and went on country sides, across paddy fields for miles. This is how punctured tires were being fixed: displace tire from rim (without removing wheels as they were through excel) pop out tube, pump air into it and spit on it, inch by inch till you find bubble coming out.🤣 then mark it with dust or brittle piece of clay pot. Release air from the tube. Take a piece of old tube, smear it with special grease and stick at the spot. Rubber on both side would dissolve momentarily but solvent would evaporate before it penetrate the tube completely. When it is about to dry out rub over the seal to complete sealing process. Insert the tube inside tire and onto the ream to make Wheeler whole again. Pump the air again. This tube would last forever till it is punctured all over.🤣 No replacement. We used to wear out each part of bike so much. We were EPA conscious without knowing about it. There was market for scrap and people would come to our home often to collect and pay us for by weight. What a win win deal of recycling.🤣 we used to earn by selling our quarterly dumps of news papers and used stationeries too.😊
How do watts and body weight calculate? For every 10 lbs. body weight loss, how many watts do I increase?
That's a very hard question to answer without knowing what riding/training you are doing and even then hard to predict. Why not just measure it and see? However back of an envelope cal....the watt/kg will usually stay about the same with weight loss providing you train the same.
But where are shimanos lubes, wet and dry?? It is the most common lube at least where I live..
What if the 11speed chain jams between the chain rings on your 9 speed system due to the fact it narrower....? Be careful as your recommendation may be mechanically callus!
The internal width of modern chains 8,9,10,11 is always the same ie they fit over the same cog size/width....its the outer measured width that differs and then only slightly. If anyone actually had the chain jam between cogs I'd be surprised because the width of the chain is bigger that the inter-cog width. However a chain can jam between cassette and frame of course.
Very good! Thank you
To save ten watts of video power STOP WITH THE SYNTHESIZER ALREADY!
What do you think this does on my huge, studio monitor loudspeakers?
You don't know... you mix on tiny desktops with no bass.
And we can tell. This bizarre attempt at emphasis is a destructive distraction.
Otherwise... great video and thanks for the infoze!
What about Rule 5?
hi I have a video request: I have a9 speed drivetrain with a wheelset that I love. I don't want to change my wheels in order to upgrade to 11 speed. what is the best solution? thanks! love your videos!
you already watched this th-cam.com/video/9Ar2zQDvAAc/w-d-xo.html right? If so is the solution there?
Will the 11speed chain not wear out faster than the 10 speed ? (even though tolerances are better)
no just the same
2:50 - Do you mean 3 *degrees* rather than percent?
They are pretty much the same thing (assuming he means % of 90° as in a grade).
Well, engaging, but these clearly are not additive. Thanks though for the recipe for the FF chain wax - that is very helpful for those seeking another watt.
Ralph, if you took all these factors away would they be additive?
12-13 watts is 50% of my total power output! Guess I'll clean my chain.
I would imagine there is a difference betyween a brand new chain, and a slightly used chain. I would imagine that chains need a break in period. A period of time for all the tighest moving parts to wear down a little into order to bed correctly. Perhaps the manufactuere is a little lazy and they are not made to blue print standard, but perhaps just a few thou off. then, as the chain is used (and cared for) it free's up. offers less resistance, than when new. I dunno. just guesssing.
quite true there is a a couple of watts saving in running-in/breaking-in a brand new chain esp on your bike...ie with your cassette and chainrings.
So Molten speed wax is the best?
one of the best, but its not clear how much better it is than 'normal' wax. for the very best chain performance clean thoroughly and do an immersion wax.
Lol what happens when you are too lazy to train... you start seeing watts in everything
... and eating watts not unhealthy will save you a lot of watts
Saving watts = lazy training? Poor analogy.
I use the ProGold lube in the picture you provided, awesome product.
Where does rock n roll holy cow come into this?
It is 30 watts per ____ ?
Can I use an 11-speed chain on an 8-speed cassette?
If you are not worried about slightly imperfect shifting you could give it a try as it will fit the cassette cogs and it may work but it is not recommended
Thanks much for responding! I don't think I will try it then : )
Non synthetic oils are biodegradable so loose any "oil" properties very quickly like days , and finally you get really hard problem to solve , totally not recommended even theoretically .
Everybody loves to promote the use of wax. If wax could stay in a liquid state then I would too. The problem is that when wax cools off it becomes little flakes of wax that flake off so now your metal to metal in your chain. Your brain sees the clean chain and your impressed, I am not.
Siclmn Cyclerider move to warm climate
Is a good idea 11 speed chain on 10 speed trasmission?
How to save up to watts 1x 12 egale Vs. 2 x11 3 x 10 system ?
S.A.W working on a lot.of drivetrain stuff now and a whole.new calculator of efficiency that will.answer your qq
gr8 audio
Somebody should make a video on "How to save up to 100W from JUST drivetrain" by comparing it to a muddy, rusty, improper length/size chain with seized up links.
Agreed! You should be our official ideas guy!
the average Joe blow on a bike doesn't care about watts.
Wow, I never knew! I better not use WD-40 anymore. Thanks.
It is there, look at 6:51 closer. The difference between a very good quality dry lube and WD40 is 1W... So i'll just keep using WD40 to clean the chain, lube the chain, and make my bike nice and shiny! :)
So I've gone to paraffin on all bikes. Soaked chain in gas, cleaned well, then ultrasonic cleaner with simple green, then dried, then in melted paraffin. Boy is the chain stiff, but after a few revolutions, it seems to be just fine. Vello had an article about chain lubes and waxes seemed to be really good. In any case, it is very clean. They say good for 500ish miles.
I hate to say this but if this was so relevant for today’s cyclists you would spend a few more minutes discussing
1 ensuring the rear mech is properly set and is indexing correctly
2 telling people NOT to lube or grease chains but to wax them. Use diesel on a chain.... really???
3 never use new chains on a sportive/race. Not as efficient as an older chain
4 you really need to tell people that 87.4% of statistics are made up... including yours
And please mate... lubes on chains also attract the metal filings from the chain, so if you are foolish enough to own a chain cleaner, use a magnet inside it
There’s no point telling people you can save efficiency if you don’t tell them fully how to prevent it.. prevention being better than a cure
You should be the English guy on the shopping channel selling floor steam cleaners that no one uses... and if you don’t use one you can save 500w
The most annoying thing is you cannot say for certain how much power anyone can save due to the individuals power consumption, power output and rising style/technique
And the chain was invented in 1880. This fact alone could save you a few watts looking shit up on wiki
thought devinci invented the roller chain?
If a bicycle chain was losing 30W it would be too hot to touch after a hard effort of more than a few minutes. While I agree with the advice you’re giving the numbers are unrealistic
....so when a sprinter does 550w at 99rpm you might not be aware that around 30w of total losses are thru the chain (fft.tips/drivetrain). Following your logic, at the end of their sprint you are saying their chain is too hot too touch?! Interesting.
FastFitnessTips: Cycling Science! That’s exactly the point I’m making. The energy “lost” has to go somewhere. In the case of a chain, energy is converted to either noise or heat. IF losses were as high as claimed, then the energy being converted to heat would heat up the chain by a significant amount, which it doesn’t. I’m not saying for a moment that there isn’t a significant amount of energy lost. All of your tips on chain selection and maintenance are valid. The 30W claim is just an over exaggeration, unless we’re comparing an ideal set up to a chain that came out of a scrapyard bin.
@@bikescience1 in a closed system you are right, the chain would heat up and if it was 30w friction, then a 250g chain would heat up about 10deg per minute (Watts of input = 0.05 x Lbs of Steel x ΔT in°F / Heat-Up Time) but you are completely forgetting that the chain is a excellent radiator and it looses this heat (ΔT above ambient) almost perfectly due to its large surface area amplified by wind chill very much like your car radiator. The end result is the chain doesn't get hot at all in reality. However I thank you for your interesting thought experiment!
FastFitnessTips: Cycling Science! At the very least, you’re “double accounting” in places. The claimed gains for a Teflon/Paraffin wax treatment already must include the savings for a deep clean for instance. Try waxing your chain without deep cleaning it first and the wax simply falls off. For me a better approach to this would be to test power losses for different chains at a known input power, then produce a comparison chart including everything from worst case scenario to best. Rusty old shed chain, decent chain that has stretched, box fresh chain with packing grease, etc etc.
don't short your chain you will destroy the derailleur !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Are we talking about e-bikes here??
E-bike chain is to be cleaned the same way.
34w!!! no chance, unless you've been riding some awful rusted 30yr bit chain!
Actually it also strongly depending on your baseline watts
Why have you got the camera on the ceiling your talking away from the mic can hardly hear you
Clean your ears then, i can hear him perfectly fine
KMC. clean after each ride gobs a goodn
you clean after each ride ?
Has this guy ever ridden a Road Bike 100/200 km in 1 day?
100/200 = 0.5, so 0.5km? yes I have 😉
all this matter ONLY in race.
Not so. If you complete an endurance event, for example, saving 30 Watts - or whatever - may be the difference between finishing the ride feeling OK, to feeling like you are about to die. And, did you never want to gain a Strava KOM. Additionally, if your chain is working efficiently, it may last longer. A dirty, neglected, chain will let you down eventually.
Viesturs Ošis today cyclists loose the point of cycling, bicycle industry washing the brains
Thank you so much for making these videos for others. Value info: I can use an 11 speed cahin on my ultegra 11-28 cassette, thats cool to know.
Quick question: I guess I can use an ultegra 11-28 cassette with an 11 speed chain to go on the sram red 22 chainring. See linkg: www.bike24.com/p256780.html
hi, the SRAM red 22 chainring works with 10 and 11 sp. the SRAM 10sp chainring actually works with 10 and 11sp too. An 11sp chain will work with a 10sp cassette but an 11 sp cassette needs an 11sp chain. Ultegra and dura-ace are compatible/switchable.
Thank u so much for sharing.
Everyone thinks this, manufacturers state it as law, but from my one-off of necessity trial of a 10 speed Shimano 105 chain on an 11 speed cassette, I can state with authority it isn't true. Test this yourself. 1/3rd the price, works just fine. No rub, no binding, perfect shifts. G'head. Test it yourself.
Why would I want to save watts when my purpose of riding is to exercise. The more watts I put out, the better the experience. 😆
Haha, true but maybe to go further on the same watts during the same workout?
@@Fastfitnesstips if you want to save watts, don’t work out 😆
TF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT
I gonna save 30watts riding to burger king then lose 150watts coming back :) I've been using budget chains for years without any issues of power loss! Come to think of it never measured anyway since I am not a racer! Seriously all this BS about watts and chains are irrelevant for recreational rider. You would have lot more improvement by losing 20lb of body fat.Noi I am not going to pay 80-150 dollars for chain!!! 15 Sram will do!
2:50 how can be an angle more than 3%? 3% of what???
3% chain deviation from a straight line (a surprisingly small amount)
But it is an angle, you can't express angles with percentages
11 degrees of 360 (3% of the circle)
This is theory, in reality deep clean you mentioned speed you up as hell. Its night and a day difference.
You cannot summate all of these FFS
the audio sucks
Would love to race this guy and see how much his bike with all his watt savings can compete against me and my Cannondale F26 stallion.
Does he have to be a top level racer to understand his trade?
Wow, you have a Cannonade F26? That's so awesome. Will you be my friend?
yeah! Please don't waste your money on this BS!!!!!
Ⓜ️🆓🎤🎧🎬✍🏽🇬🇧: 👌🏽 Perfect
bollox
How many?
its up to you to prove it , but it could be 30 watts if you compare it to a rusty worn out chain , which I suspect is what they did :-)
sorry , a way to fast for non- natives
Drive your training with a dirty chain, appear at the start from a match with a clean one. Top 20 guarantee. 😀
I did this accidentally got a new chain before a race and it felt like i was riding a different bike. Like an expensive fast bike lol.
Maybe not the cheapest option, but maybe getting 3-4 chains simultaniously? every 200km(i use wax, so thats about the time when i would have to bath the chain again in paraffin wax and parafin oil), simply change to the next one, that way you always have a relatively unworn chain for long time. Also, in the case of waxing, if it actually does get really dirty, simply take it off, put on the next one. No need to clean it, wax it and all the stuff that is involved just wax all 3-4 chains at once. Saves a bit of time too
BTW: Buying bike specific degreaser is probably the most cost-uneffective thing, right after buying pinarello frames. I personally use orange/citrus degreaser and heat it slowly up to just under 40°C for factory chains with the factory lube. Put the chain into a container, add the degreaser(or mineral spirits also work srly good), shake for a few minutes and your chain should be sparlking clean and rattle like well...a rattle.
You just saved me $65 by mentioning that 11-speed chains can be used on 10-speed systems...I had accidentally bought an 11-speed chain....thanks!
Does it really work? I’m running sora on my gravel bike so I can buy nice 11 speed chain?
Im using a 10spd chain on my 9 speed drive train with a 8speed claris rear derailleur works fine shifts crisp
Me: how to save nearly 100 watts by not being 3 stone overweight.
@Camdyn Charlie you’re right on that one, nobody cares
ok something happened here which never happened before with me - indepth discussion of chain life/performance without anything incorect, unclear, ambiguous, complicated, product biased... well done!
First time for everything!
Just rewatched - I'm doing most of these tips now - wippermann 11sp, sonic cleaner (£10 off Ebay!) paraffin wax with tungsten disulphide applied by heat. Clean and quiet.
except the audio is well below par
so if i follow all this advice, coupled with aerodynamics advice and rolling resistance, will my bike propel itself?
Off a cliff, definitely. gravity will be on your side too.
I once restored an old road bike, and with everything done correctly it didn't power itself, but I did discover that many of my local streets had downhill grades that I hadn't previously noted
If you light your fart yes
I hate when peoppe give a specific number like 30 Watts. What if I'm a 6 year old with a 30 watt power outout. "Cycling companiess hate him, double your watts in 5 minutes." Percentages are bad enough but a static number?
You are 100% right; ours was a rather primitive approach two years ago! Send me an email and you can trial our forthcoming drivetrain loss calculator and also checkour our more nuanced chain wear/watts calculator (th-cam.com/video/gDmUPMsGNKo/w-d-xo.html). Believe me we are working on a better solution right now.
Fastfitnesstips dawnripperr@gmail.com
you REALLY should not display your email address to the public like that.
You know a 6 year old competetive cyclist ready to hit the velodrome circuit or road racing? Do tell...
Peoppe ? I hate it when people try to use a specific word but fail miserably.
wait. did I see WD-40 in your list of lubes? I have been using that for decades, and yet, every bike shop I ever go into yells at me (yes, I had a bike shop tech yell at me) to never use WD-40. meh. it works.
and, I use an engine de-greaser. Anything that cleans off a car's engine works brilliantly on bike chains as well.
WD40 = degreaser and light oil combined. It kindof works if you are in a hurry but effects wear off fast.
I generally re-apply every Sunday evening.
@@shannonstrobel6727 it works for an extremely short period of time and attracts a ton of dirt. use the parrafin method.